lol, 2xDC+GF+Hdps (or 1DC+GF+OP+Hdps) is already the best party composition. It is just that lot of players don't know how buff and class synergy worked that they are still running with 1DC+1tank+3 dps -_- (or sometimes because it is hard to find 3 support class)
I have to agree that complaints that optimal party composition will include two DCs are misplaced due to the strength of support, but LFG parties are usually struggling to find their minimum of support classes and will likely continue to take whoever they can find (within whatever limits the lowest common denominator ends up deciding they require).
It's not like a lot of DPS players don't have access to at least a smattering of powers that will help boost any group. (I said a lot, not all.)
there is no DPS path for clerics, Righteous ismore of a debuff path rahther than DPS oriented but hey, who am I to burst your bubble.
What are the 6 feats in the Righteous Tree for that exclusively increase a cleric's personal DPS for if not for.... DPS? If that is the case, could we get these removed and some uncapped debuffs added, since the only real debuffs in the game are uncapped.
Unbreakable Devotion, I mean 50% of weapon damage? Needs a fix/buff. Why is a feat that provides a shield based on weapon damage anyway?
While it is still a pretty low number with a goofy mechanic, the feat dates from the level 60 cap, when 30k hitpoints was quite a lot, and the game didn't equate difficulty with one-shots.
Indeed, it was a great feat. I run a full virtuous build and unbreakable devotion was really cool. I would like to have it back and play the virtuous again as it was long time ago. I would quit the rigtheous path for an updated and effective version of UD.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
Needless to say, giving me ~20% increased dps would be broken in my own little world where runs like this exist.
Sorry but how do you figure you went full DPS even on daily and DL yet was not even close to paingiver and the *30% boost still would not have brought you up by much. ?
The top paingiver was a 4k DPS spec GF (although admittedly he was goofing off), and wasn't really part of the benchmark. I was competing with Hodor and Winter Assassin.
Hodor and WinterAssassin were close enough to probably (not sure) pass with the proposed DPS boost. Not saying they played perfectly, or had perfect setups. Just saying that they are around the dps level of the average 3.2k-3.3k that I see from day to day.
Now the crazy thing is that I do not need to beat them in DPS. Even running the DPS rotation, I bring a larger utility (dps boost) to the whole team than they do. If I get even close to their DPS, the most optimal party (with the upcoming changes) becomes something like:
MoF DO DC AC DC GF Any HDPS
And the end result will have the HDPS at top paingiver, with the DO DC right behind him. This in my opinion is not even remotely close to balanced. In the given party the DO DC will win 2nd in DPS almost regardless of what rotation he uses.
I am not saying this IS the best comp, or that it WILL be the best comp. I am saying it looks to me like it will be the best comp, and that the DO DC will be providing more actual DPS than the MoF or GF, and combined with the buffs they bring, they will be bringing more total DPS than the HDPS could dream of.
I am finding this entire argument pointless, since we have no way of testing the new changes yet, and I am currently trying to schedule some runs with @thefabricant to test some of the live stuff out.
In my opinion, DCs don't need more flat DPS, they need ways to complete dailies faster, specifically the support build DCs. It was never in argument that Virt/Faith support build DCs (or even sometimes righteous when specced purely for support) are the most torturous things to play in solo content, without any contest at all.
However, there are many possible fixes to this that do not involve a global Cleric DPS increase. Some require more work than others. Such as Geas being changed to a spell that kills minor (non-boss, non-dungeon) enemies instantly after they are below half HP (maybe then it would at least have a use)? Maybe make the "when healing, damage enemies" boons better (like A LOT better). Maybe make some of the powers other than Chains and Daunting Light do more damage (Compare Searing Light and Daunting Light, Daunting Light is almost better even if it misses 50% of the time). I mention Searing Light due to the Armor Pen on it that would help support build (who should in theory have armor pen in solo, but a lot don't). Maybe not force a trade-off between recovery and armor pen on Cleric gear?
EDIT
If DCs are THAT far behind in DPS, why not make it a +60% increase? Might as well make those daily runs faster, since DCs can't beat real DPS classes in DPS no matter how much they increase DC damage.
But you were competing in an uneven environment (to your favor) and you still lost. While the overall ilvl was similar, you had better gear, better artifacts, a 30% dmg boost they didnt have (from wheel), a potentially 20% increase in dmg they didnt have (from terrifying insight), a (from what I could see) a better rotation, and again, you lost. And who knows what weapon enchantment (and level) they/you were using, what insignias/insignia bonuses, mounts bonus, enchantments, etc etc they were using. In CN, 1 sudden precision ring can make a significant difference in dmg due to how often it gets to reset.
I know you keep saying that we dont have to BEAT them, we just have to come close, but that's the point we are also making. In an even environment, a DC doesnt come close. In FBI for example (a better measuring stick I think for dps comparisons), DPS typically is kicking between 350m-450m and I'm around 75m-125m. I CAN do better (and make them do worse) by changing my build a little, changing my gear, giving less buffs and doing more personal damage, but it still doesnt make it close AND it changes that run from 20minutes to like 30-40minutes.
I mean everyone CAN dps to certain degrees. An OP tank can do damage similar to DC's if they really go for it, but its still miles away from a high performing HR for example. But they arent really supposed to go full dps (and neither are we). If you sacrifice nearly everything you are designed to do and why groups want you, you can do damage that is better than the actual tanking tank, better then the actual buffing dc, and worse then everyone else.
To your edit: I agree we don't "need" a dps increase; I agree with that. A righteous DC already has very few problems in getting through level appropriate dailies. A virtuous/faithful do however; it's slow and grindy. So the 30% increase will ideally make their lives easier without making a righteous a competitive DPS character. If you end up being right and it needs to be scaled back, so be it. If you are wrong and its perfect or needs a further push (like your 60% example); so be it. But it's a start.
Regardless, I think the "dps" part of this discussion is derailing the thread beyond all the other changes that feedback could be provided.
I'm more interested in: -the loss of ap gain through chains (Nooooooo!) -the now uselessness of the mitigation provided by AA (too far me think) -the scaling back of AA's power share (fair?) -the fix to DG being affected by weapon enchantments (YAY!) - the double-daily potential these changes provide coupled with the ability to whether it's feasible to do it now that the way in which our AP is gained has changed. - the changes/fixes to DO and whether that, mixed in with the nerfs to AA, will make DO a pretty competitive build going forward (20% damage buff + HG + DA/FS + PoD vs. AA + HG + feated BoB). More competitive at least.
lol, 2xDC+GF+Hdps (or 1DC+GF+OP+Hdps) is already the best party composition. It is just that lot of players don't know how buff and class synergy worked that they are still running with 1DC+1tank+3 dps -_- (or sometimes because it is hard to find 3 support class)
I have to agree that complaints that optimal party composition will include two DCs are misplaced due to the strength of support, but LFG parties are usually struggling to find their minimum of support classes and will likely continue to take whoever they can find (within whatever limits the lowest common denominator ends up deciding they require).
It's not like a lot of DPS players don't have access to at least a smattering of powers that will help boost any group. (I said a lot, not all.)
I have to agree. Optimal or otherwise, it's one thing to WANT certain classes, and another to get them.
Nevertheless, I think these changes have the potential to swing things the other way. With an ACDC now (potentially) being able to do feated BOB, WoL, AA, HG, eBTS, DG, Condemning Gaze, Gift of Haste, and Bear Your Sins, it may swing the other way where a 2nd ACDC (the majority of DC's) provides very little.
Currently the 2nd DC (whether AC or DC) provides HG + eFF (and maybe PoD but meh) which is enough to be an ideal groupmate. Now at least, a 2nd DC (assuming AC) will only provide eFF, which to me would be inferior to grabbing another DPS class (or a DO DC). I think if anything this will make it more likely that 5th spot will go to a DPS then a DC going forward.
To your edit: I agree we don't "need" a dps increase; I agree with that. A righteous DC already has very few problems in getting through level appropriate dailies. A virtuous/faithful do however; it's slow and grindy. So the 30% increase will ideally make their lives easier without making a righteous a competitive DPS character. If you end up being right and it needs to be scaled back, so be it. If you are wrong and its perfect or needs a further push (like your 60% example); so be it. But it's a start.
Regardless, I think the "dps" part of this discussion is derailing the thread beyond all the other changes that feedback could be provided.
I'm more interested in: -the loss of ap gain through chains (Nooooooo!) -the now uselessness of the mitigation provided by AA (too far me think) -the scaling back of AA's power share (fair?) -the fix to DG being affected by weapon enchantments (YAY!) - the double-daily potential these changes provide coupled with the ability to whether it's feasible to do it now that the way in which our AP is gained has changed. - the changes/fixes to DO and whether that, mixed in with the nerfs to AA, will make DO a pretty competitive build going forward (20% damage buff + HG + DA/FS + PoD vs. AA + HG + feated BoB). More competitive at least.
I would continue arguing the parts where I have greaters when they have perfects and pures, but I think you are right. This has derailed this thread way too far, and without any real tests (like in FBI) it's totally pointless.
I am actually a little scared myself about the AP loss on Chains, that is a MASSIVE part of a DC's AP gain. On the bright side PoD restores like what 50% of your AP bar on anything that dies? So that could be kinda cool.
If AA now blocks 20% of your max HP per sphere, and isn't simply broken by a single hit, I think it will still be great mitigation, just not broken.
In theory feated Bob+AA is still better than Terrifying Insight in a BiS party (specifically if the cleric is BiS), so I think it is still probably the best daily. PoD might become a factor if you aren't hitting the debuff cap, but that is fairly rare. In a 10 man raid it is almost impossible to not hit the debuff cap.
DG YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! x 40000
-- EDIT -- I will likely just start a new thread specifically for the statistics we discover on the DPS DC. I personally am genuinely curious how a DPS DC stacks up against these "real DPS" classes so many people have spoken of. I only know what I have played with, so I am excited to run with @thefabricant, or ANYONE who is also curious enough to run a few dungeons with a pathetic 3.2k DPS DC. I am always open to being carried
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Nevertheless, I think these changes have the potential to swing things the other way. With an ACDC now (potentially) being able to do feated BOB, WoL, AA, HG, eBTS, DG, Condemning Gaze, Gift of Haste, and Bear Your Sins, it may swing the other way where a 2nd ACDC (the majority of DC's) provides very little.
Currently the 2nd DC (whether AC or DC) provides HG + eFF (and maybe PoD but meh) which is enough to be an ideal groupmate. Now at least, a 2nd DC (assuming AC) will only provide eFF, which to me would be inferior to grabbing another DPS class (or a DO DC). I think if anything this will make it more likely that 5th spot will go to a DPS then a DC going forward.
And I think it provides an opportunity for everyone who prefers DODC but finally caved and respecced into ACDC because it was expected of them or they felt obligated in order to be included to change back to their preferred build.
ACDC became the dominant build not because all people playing DCs actually like it exponentially better, but because there was demand for it. I think the distribution between who has a personal preference for each DC paragon is fairly evenly split when other things are within reason of being equal.
I suppose it will depend on the content. I'd guess most DPS have around 120kish hitpoint; so 20% of that is 24000 hitpoints. I DO think that people should go back to "avoiding the red", but even ignoring those attacks, most of the giants regular swings do more damage than 144,000 damage. You can put the onus on tanks to ensure they "turn" the mobs more efficiently, but FBI and MSVA in particular are pretty erratic. Perhaps rather than AA + HG the DC could try and keep up AA + DA (at the expense of damage buffs) to further pump up the groups hitpoints? If that combo actually works to keep people alive that would be a fair trade; though then I take back my earlier post about 2 dc's being less desirable. Will be interesting for sure.
The AP loss is going to be pretty bad. I think keeping 1 daily up will be unaffected, but with the new thoughts swirling around my head about rapid firing double dailies, it may be less possible than I thought (which I guess may be an ok thing?). Maybe the DC will become dependant upon a buff GF for help on AP gain? Nothing wrong with group interactions though neither DC nor GF's need any more help finding groups.
I agree feated BoB + AA is still superior to terrifying insight, though (I presume) TI will be easier to apply (people wont need to be close to you to get it), wont be dependent on hitting both the person + their companion to be effective, and will have higher uptime (especially when considering the desire - or at least my desire - to double daily); I would think AA+HG is superior; but TI+HG will be far easier to keep up (with room for say FS or DA as needed/when able).
Nevertheless, I think these changes have the potential to swing things the other way. With an ACDC now (potentially) being able to do feated BOB, WoL, AA, HG, eBTS, DG, Condemning Gaze, Gift of Haste, and Bear Your Sins, it may swing the other way where a 2nd ACDC (the majority of DC's) provides very little.
Currently the 2nd DC (whether AC or DC) provides HG + eFF (and maybe PoD but meh) which is enough to be an ideal groupmate. Now at least, a 2nd DC (assuming AC) will only provide eFF, which to me would be inferior to grabbing another DPS class (or a DO DC). I think if anything this will make it more likely that 5th spot will go to a DPS then a DC going forward.
And I think it provides an opportunity for everyone who prefers DODC but finally caved and respecced into ACDC because it was expected of them or they felt obligated in order to be included to change back to their preferred build.
ACDC became the dominant build not because all people playing DCs actually like it exponentially better, but because there was demand for it. I think the distribution between who has a personal preference for each DC paragon is fairly evenly split when other things are within reason of being equal.
(edited to add quote for threading)
Oh most definitely. If all this goes live and works how my brain thinks it will, my long lost DODC may just be back in action!
It also adds a new way to level your DC. Since both TI and HG are not gear dependant, and are pretty simple to stack (no need for insane power/AP gain compared to trying to stack AA/HG) it will likely become the "better" way for lower level DC's to go; and a competitive/complementary build to ACDC at the "end game".
Nevertheless, I think these changes have the potential to swing things the other way. With an ACDC now (potentially) being able to do feated BOB, WoL, AA, HG, eBTS, DG, Condemning Gaze, Gift of Haste, and Bear Your Sins, it may swing the other way where a 2nd ACDC (the majority of DC's) provides very little.
Currently the 2nd DC (whether AC or DC) provides HG + eFF (and maybe PoD but meh) which is enough to be an ideal groupmate. Now at least, a 2nd DC (assuming AC) will only provide eFF, which to me would be inferior to grabbing another DPS class (or a DO DC). I think if anything this will make it more likely that 5th spot will go to a DPS then a DC going forward.
And I think it provides an opportunity for everyone who prefers DODC but finally caved and respecced into ACDC because it was expected of them or they felt obligated in order to be included to change back to their preferred build.
ACDC became the dominant build not because all people playing DCs actually like it exponentially better, but because there was demand for it. I think the distribution between who has a personal preference for each DC paragon is fairly evenly split when other things are within reason of being equal.
(edited to add quote for threading)
Oh most definitely. If all this goes live and works how my brain thinks it will, my long lost DODC may just be back in action!
It also adds a new way to level your DC. Since both TI and HG are not gear dependant, and are pretty simple to stack (no need for insane power/AP gain compared to trying to stack AA/HG) it will likely become the "better" way for lower level DC's to go; and a competitive/complementary build to ACDC at the "end game".
Isn't it already the "better" way to level? Misread, sorry. You meant item level.
Nevertheless, I think these changes have the potential to swing things the other way. With an ACDC now (potentially) being able to do feated BOB, WoL, AA, HG, eBTS, DG, Condemning Gaze, Gift of Haste, and Bear Your Sins, it may swing the other way where a 2nd ACDC (the majority of DC's) provides very little.
Currently the 2nd DC (whether AC or DC) provides HG + eFF (and maybe PoD but meh) which is enough to be an ideal groupmate. Now at least, a 2nd DC (assuming AC) will only provide eFF, which to me would be inferior to grabbing another DPS class (or a DO DC). I think if anything this will make it more likely that 5th spot will go to a DPS then a DC going forward.
And I think it provides an opportunity for everyone who prefers DODC but finally caved and respecced into ACDC because it was expected of them or they felt obligated in order to be included to change back to their preferred build.
ACDC became the dominant build not because all people playing DCs actually like it exponentially better, but because there was demand for it. I think the distribution between who has a personal preference for each DC paragon is fairly evenly split when other things are within reason of being equal.
(edited to add quote for threading)
Oh most definitely. If all this goes live and works how my brain thinks it will, my long lost DODC may just be back in action!
It also adds a new way to level your DC. Since both TI and HG are not gear dependant, and are pretty simple to stack (no need for insane power/AP gain compared to trying to stack AA/HG) it will likely become the "better" way for lower level DC's to go; and a competitive/complementary build to ACDC at the "end game".
Isn't it already the "better" way to level? Misread, sorry. You meant item level.
Oops, yah. I mean even post 70. When you're a say 2500ilvl DC, your AA spamming is sub-par and the power that it shares is likely sub par AND your group mates are less likely to know the benefits of hanging close to their DC buddy. A DO would likely be far superior in terms of buffing damage than an AC. This is assuming TI has a similar area of effect as something like BTS (but I don't think they've indicated unless I missed it)
Then as the AC kinda "catches up" due to gear there will still be a nice choice between the two paths where, even if AC still reigns supreme, DO will have a very desirable niche that a 2nd AC can no longer really provide.
Nevertheless, I think these changes have the potential to swing things the other way. With an ACDC now (potentially) being able to do feated BOB, WoL, AA, HG, eBTS, DG, Condemning Gaze, Gift of Haste, and Bear Your Sins, it may swing the other way where a 2nd ACDC (the majority of DC's) provides very little.
Currently the 2nd DC (whether AC or DC) provides HG + eFF (and maybe PoD but meh) which is enough to be an ideal groupmate. Now at least, a 2nd DC (assuming AC) will only provide eFF, which to me would be inferior to grabbing another DPS class (or a DO DC). I think if anything this will make it more likely that 5th spot will go to a DPS then a DC going forward.
And I think it provides an opportunity for everyone who prefers DODC but finally caved and respecced into ACDC because it was expected of them or they felt obligated in order to be included to change back to their preferred build.
ACDC became the dominant build not because all people playing DCs actually like it exponentially better, but because there was demand for it. I think the distribution between who has a personal preference for each DC paragon is fairly evenly split when other things are within reason of being equal.
(edited to add quote for threading)
Oh most definitely. If all this goes live and works how my brain thinks it will, my long lost DODC may just be back in action!
It also adds a new way to level your DC. Since both TI and HG are not gear dependant, and are pretty simple to stack (no need for insane power/AP gain compared to trying to stack AA/HG) it will likely become the "better" way for lower level DC's to go; and a competitive/complementary build to ACDC at the "end game".
Isn't it already the "better" way to level? Misread, sorry. You meant item level.
Oops, yah. I mean even post 70. When you're a say 2500ilvl DC, your AA spamming is sub-par and the power that it shares is likely sub par AND your group mates are less likely to know the benefits of hanging close to their DC buddy. A DO would likely be far superior in terms of buffing damage than an AC. This is assuming TI has a similar area of effect as something like BTS (but I don't think they've indicated unless I missed it)
Then as the AC kinda "catches up" due to gear there will still be a nice choice between the two paths where, even if AC still reigns supreme, DO will have a very desirable niche that a 2nd AC can no longer really provide.
My thoughts exactly. It will take a little bit more management by group organizers though, since similar to GFs you will need 1 DO per party. Having all the DOs in the same party will be... kinda pointless, unless it stacks, in which case @dreadnaught#5263it had better not stack under any circumstance EVER!
The one combo i have yet to hear anyways mention and might be the trick for keeping the 2 DC Comp in Fbi or elsewhere is AA and DA while other DC uses HG . Or something along them lines just have to wait and test .
I've thought of similar; though again it would then be optimal to have an ACDC and DODC. AC does say AA+DA; and the DO can do HG+(either DA as well or just FS away) + also have TI + PoD. Should be a nice potential duo.
I'm also curious (though not sure how often these "new" powers will be used anyway) as to how these new shields/temp hp's will interact with each other. Will AA, Prophetic Action, Warding Flare, DA all "stack" or overwrite/ignore each other? Hopefully it hits preview (is it even going to preview?) soon so people can take a look at these changes rather than just speculate.
Like @rapo973 I would really love to see that Virtuous tree fixed up. I'm not sure if 2 DCs will be as good but until we get our hands the changes nothing in this thread is certain. The nerf to AP gain is a little disconcerting though.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
there is no DPS path for clerics, Righteous ismore of a debuff path rahther than DPS oriented but hey, who am I to burst your bubble.
What are the 6 feats in the Righteous Tree for that exclusively increase a cleric's personal DPS for if not for.... DPS? If that is the case, could we get these removed and some uncapped debuffs added, since the only real debuffs in the game are uncapped.
There are four (five if your AC):
Astral Fury Righteous Suffering Living Fire Piercing Light Ancient Warding
You might say Fire of the Gods is for personal DPS but most DCs traditionally use it to proc Bear your Sins as a debuff the target for the benefit of the entire party.
and if i had to guess since they are lower in the tree, it's to give an option for healing capstones to do a bit more damage. Although few would take them since everyone expects DC to be a team player and take all party skills.
Nevertheless, I think these changes have the potential to swing things the other way. With an ACDC now (potentially) being able to do feated BOB, WoL, AA, HG, eBTS, DG, Condemning Gaze, Gift of Haste, and Bear Your Sins, it may swing the other way where a 2nd ACDC (the majority of DC's) provides very little.
Currently the 2nd DC (whether AC or DC) provides HG + eFF (and maybe PoD but meh) which is enough to be an ideal groupmate. Now at least, a 2nd DC (assuming AC) will only provide eFF, which to me would be inferior to grabbing another DPS class (or a DO DC). I think if anything this will make it more likely that 5th spot will go to a DPS then a DC going forward.
And I think it provides an opportunity for everyone who prefers DODC but finally caved and respecced into ACDC because it was expected of them or they felt obligated in order to be included to change back to their preferred build.
ACDC became the dominant build not because all people playing DCs actually like it exponentially better, but because there was demand for it. I think the distribution between who has a personal preference for each DC paragon is fairly evenly split when other things are within reason of being equal.
(edited to add quote for threading)
Oh most definitely. If all this goes live and works how my brain thinks it will, my long lost DODC may just be back in action!
It also adds a new way to level your DC. Since both TI and HG are not gear dependant, and are pretty simple to stack (no need for insane power/AP gain compared to trying to stack AA/HG) it will likely become the "better" way for lower level DC's to go; and a competitive/complementary build to ACDC at the "end game".
This, so much this, I have a long lost DODC as well and may bring him back someday once I get done upgrading my GF and HB SW (not anytime soon, that's for sure), the changes to TI sound sweet. I never was interested in ever speccing to AC DC and thanks to these changes I may have a reason get my DODC geared up to a decent level as it will be finally desired in dungeon runs
As for the migitigation aspect of AA, well, it wasn't an exaggerated nerf, there should be no damage immunities in the game (I'm looking at you steel defense...) nor any skill that can allow dps guys to mindlessly stay on red circles and/or survive one shots. Another thing that should be considered is that dps people from high level guilds tend to run with the lifesteal boon, no idea why the even do that but it significantly increases the chances to be 1 shotted by regualr attacks from normal enemies.
Hastening Light spends a lot of AP by encounter reset, only problem is to cast devine mode in between. I only hope AA-fix will turn things back to normality. Atm a common mSVA-setup looks like this: 2-3 AA-spammimg DC´s buff the group and the 2 conqueror GF´s, who lock the boss with Knights challenge topping the charts by that, dealing 30 times the dps of a DC. Checking your ACT you recognize, none of those 2 guys run ITF... but you stood alltime next to him and spammed immortality.
Im happy about the thread going normal again although there are still some derailing here. @dreadnaught#5263 two more powers to be looked at:
1. PoD and HoF still will consume whole AP bar/goes into cooldown if their target dies or move out of range during the animations BEFORE THE ANIMATION COMPLETE. 2. Especially for HoF, the animation is slow enough, roots you in place while giving you a fake impression you are going to hit that guy three times but actually you are just a dummy being hit by others while dealing no damage to your target. This happens a lot in pvp, please reduce the number of hits into one and speed up the casting animations as well as give the true cc immunity and dmg immunity during the cast animation.
@dreadnaught#5263 About Warding Flare (if any of those changes are live on page 1)
Casting this power the CD jumps from 21 to 16 the moment I attack, sometimes down to 13 and back to 16, can´t understand why it happening like this. At the current state i could imagine to use BoH +Astral Shield+ warding flare+ Annoited Army for a mitigation/heal setup, using Astrals shield devine+BoH devine for Hp buff and heal Warding Flare is 2/3 on CD, all in all it is active about 25%, laughable, It should be up all time with a decent recovery, otherwise it is useless, only shielding a small percentage and being up for a very short period. Thinking about 300k+ hits from giants, it might be a small help anyway. Better pump up the shield effect - by that you get an overpowered spell in PVP, making the hole group invulnerable by adding Astral shield on top. Atm PVP is dead and you got to decide if or if not those spells should be from any interest in PVE. Lot´s of things a DC provides in PVP in times of tenacity can be considered to be completely broken like Agent of devine, empowered Astral shield, AA at current state etc etc. 400k hits vs PVP ....if you want PVP to stay alive you have to reset your hole strategy anyway, turning the wheel far far back like zero tenacity, equalized stats etc., zero lifesteal, otherwise this branch of the game has to be considered as dead.
PS: please no more videos about DC´s , who obviously never even read any tooltip, it hurts.
@dreadnaught#5263 Casting this power the CD jumps from 21 to 16 the moment I attack, sometimes down to 13 and back to 16, can´t understand why it happening like this. PS: please no more videos about DC´s , who obviously never even read any tooltip, it hurts.
please no more comments about DC´s , who obviously never even read any tooltip, it hurts.
So this jumps are caused by capston, but can´t understand why it is jumping back sometimes, 21-16-13-16, irritating. I comment the videos shown in this threat , who want to demonstrate the effectiveness of a class and by that slowing down the hole group for about 50% by slotting powers and feats that only support your own class. Same as those GF´s I met in mSVA, who slot encounterpower and don´t use ITF only to top the paingiver. What comes next, a Hellbringer warlock without PoP. That´s by sure a personal thing, but it is hard to argument and see the benefit. Live with the supporter role or level a striker class is my response, otherwise you allways have problems outside a premade group.
So this jumps are caused by capston, but can´t understand why it is jumping back sometimes, 21-16-13-16, irritating.
If you leave combat, or 25s passes it will jump back up, since Avatar ended. Try attacking a dummy before casting it, so that you stay in combat after casting it.
Also note, the above changes aren't live or on preview as far as I know.
I comment the videos shown in this threat , who want to demonstrate the effectiveness of a class and by that slowing down the hole group for about 50% by slotting powers and feats that only support your own class. Same as those GF´s I met in mSVA, who slot encounterpower and don´t use ITF only to top the paingiver. What comes next, a Hellbringer warlock without PoP. That´s by sure a personal thing, but it is hard to argument and see the benefit. Live with the supporter role or level a striker class is my response, otherwise you allways have problems outside a premade group.
Now, I am going to try to reply while keeping this on-topic.
I personally made the disclaimer that I normally wouldn't run a full DPS rotation in that party, it slows the party down as you said. However I would normally run with another DC, so casting BtS twice has no benefit. In this situation I use FF instead of Divine Glow, which doesn't decrease my DPS much (it actually goes up in single target).
Now, the only way we only know some paths are superior/inferior, is by testing them. People can say "I already tested it for you, go home", but I wouldn't trust 99% of other players, for the same reason they don't trust me. I don't believe they tested it correctly (or fairly), and they don't have all the numbers and facts on the table (if that is even possible to do). As easily as they can say "dude my CW walks into CN and does triple the DPS of my DC", I can just as easily say "dude my DC walks into CN and does ten times the DPS of my GWF". No numbers, no full gear/companion layouts, no facts, no argument (yeah, I don't have much of one either).
** EEEHH ** You failed! stay on topic!
Okay okay, so why does it even matter, and why should it be considered for balance purposes? Because the Righteous tree has been reduced near exclusively to a personal DPS increase.The only feats in the Righteous path that do anything other than increase personal DPS are: Bear Your Sins (capped debuff, useless), Condemning Gaze (capped debuff, useless), Power of the Sun (-5% enemy damage, fairly useless), Furious Intervention (AP gain, more dailies, woah that might be useful), Weapon of Light (about a 3-7% party DPS buff depending on your party, not bad), Avatar (massive personal dps and cdr boost, but must be ignored by most supports, since it doesn't last for entire fights like msva). Everything else is exclusively useful for personal DPS.
So what about an unoptimal party? Capped debuffs are useful in a party without a MoF right? Yes, but why are we worrying about perfection, and the speed of a run if we are going to just pretend one of the biggest pieces doesn't exist? Why not assume we also couldn't find a tank then? Why is the DC (or the GWF lol) suddenly not tank spec to compensate? Yeah no, you build a character to fit the role you want it to fill, within the subset of roles your class is remotely capable of filling, and generally in relation to the people you play with. If you always have a MoF friend to run with, you likely wouldn't consider Condemning Gaze or Bear Your Sins to be very useful now would you?
** EEEHH ** You failed again moron! stay on topic!
I would say something like "If Righteous is for buffs/debuff, then please buff it so much, it is so bad", but looking at the other Cleric trees, they are in an even worse state. Virtuous needs "weapon damage' removed from like every single feat in the tree, Faithful needs several "weapon damage" references removed from the tree, and both of the trees need something other than healing added (movement speed, actual mitigation, maybe some chance at activating quartermasters/dragon hoards on heals?).
Now if a CW is allowed to sacrifice all their DPS for a support build (MoF) and be good at it, why is a DC sacrificing all of their support for a DPS build, and being good at it not in the realm of possibility? Key words being "and being good at it". The point of my DPS DC to to test this theory (well that, and to do daily/weekly quests without losing my mind [...again]). After the changes to DC, DO DCs won't even have to slot any powers or do anything special to buff their whole party by 20%. They can freely cast whatever spells they want, actually they could probably just stand there and look pretty and still would be contributing a lot to the party (assuming Terrifying Insight works as described).
@dreadnaught#5263 Can we get the Virtuous capstones to count as a kill for the purposes of Boons (ex. Elvish Fury), Items (ex. Bloodlord's Visage), and Enchants (ex. Dragon's Hoard)? So that way if someone takes damage near a Virtuous, the Virtuous get a stack of Elvish Fury, a stack of Bloodlord's Visage, and a chance at some refining points? And when someone drops below 45% HP with a Faithful's Gift of Faith on them, it will give the Faithful a stack of Elvish Fury, a stack of Bloodlord's Visage, and a chance at refining points?
This is a huge issue on live, where the support paths can't even get their normal refining points, due to never killing anything in a dungeon.
There are other videos in this threat btw. and I don´t recommend anything like using xyz encounter but I would avoid to post such vids as an example of "how to run a DC, or how to support a party" Everyone can chose his role in a party, I only think a DC is not the best class to run a dps (more or less the worst imo, maybe this will change with rework).
About the capped debuff. It is a good way to handle the problems with overbuffs, fastruns and excludet classes that can´t contribut like this. Otherwise they would be excludet. Someone asked for decapping PoD and other debuffs, this only will lead to a misbalance between classes. I don´t know if 200% is a good cutoff, since my GF achieves allready up to 180% effectiveness on his own.
I really don´t know what happens when a mof-CW enters a group and why I get effectiveness up to 400% by that. This is a secret kept by cryptics devs (who might run CW´s themself). Even running 1 dancing shield and 4 sellswords, 400% should not be achieveable. Maybe michela123 missed some effects in that List. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8Y_AmqnnhOdaCT2Sg9e-OcC0m6q5nUJLfujZVsI1Z0/edit#gid=0
About the capped debuff. It is a good way to handle the problems with overbuffs, fastruns and excludet classes that can´t contribut like this. Otherwise they would be excludet. Someone asked for decapping PoD and other debuffs, this only will lead to a misbalance between classes. I don´t know if 200% is a good cutoff, since my GF achieves allready up to 180% effectiveness on his own.
In my opinion, they should tone down most of the debuffs in the game. Most of them are beyond excessive, and seemingly have numbers, chosen completely at random (27.5% on PoD... lol?). The cap is probably fine, how easily we reach it is not.
I really don´t know what happens when a mof-CW enters a group and why I get effectiveness up to 400% by that. This is a secret kept by cryptics devs (who might run CW´s themself). Even running 1 dancing shield and 4 sellswords, 400% should not be achieveable. Maybe michela123 missed some effects in that List. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8Y_AmqnnhOdaCT2Sg9e-OcC0m6q5nUJLfujZVsI1Z0/edit#gid=0
Yeah he must have missed something.
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0
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited March 2017
You just need 100% uncaped to reach the 400% effectivness, unless the uncaped are multiplicative, in that case you need even less, the equation i've guiding from has them as aditive and honestly they are very powerful already (maybe exept sw that needs them).
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
Please don't rush DC changes if it takes a bit longer let it be, i have a GWF too and is in my "most played classes" but it's been 2 years since EE came out and if a fix comes is now or never, look at OP's bullwark, light, where are they?
Please don't rush DC changes if it takes a bit longer let it be, i have a GWF too and is in my "most played classes" but it's been 2 years since EE came out and if a fix comes is now or never, look at OP's bullwark, light, where are they?
@dreadnaught#5263This. Please do not rush these changes. If they have to stay on preview with a feedback->update->feedback->update cycle until mod 12, so be it
Comments
It's not like a lot of DPS players don't have access to at least a smattering of powers that will help boost any group. (I said a lot, not all.)
GWFwinter parties are... well, they're certainly something.
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Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
I run a full virtuous build and unbreakable devotion was really cool. I would like to have it back and play the virtuous again as it was long time ago. I would quit the rigtheous path for an updated and effective version of UD.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I know you keep saying that we dont have to BEAT them, we just have to come close, but that's the point we are also making. In an even environment, a DC doesnt come close. In FBI for example (a better measuring stick I think for dps comparisons), DPS typically is kicking between 350m-450m and I'm around 75m-125m. I CAN do better (and make them do worse) by changing my build a little, changing my gear, giving less buffs and doing more personal damage, but it still doesnt make it close AND it changes that run from 20minutes to like 30-40minutes.
I mean everyone CAN dps to certain degrees. An OP tank can do damage similar to DC's if they really go for it, but its still miles away from a high performing HR for example. But they arent really supposed to go full dps (and neither are we). If you sacrifice nearly everything you are designed to do and why groups want you, you can do damage that is better than the actual tanking tank, better then the actual buffing dc, and worse then everyone else.
To your edit: I agree we don't "need" a dps increase; I agree with that. A righteous DC already has very few problems in getting through level appropriate dailies. A virtuous/faithful do however; it's slow and grindy. So the 30% increase will ideally make their lives easier without making a righteous a competitive DPS character. If you end up being right and it needs to be scaled back, so be it. If you are wrong and its perfect or needs a further push (like your 60% example); so be it. But it's a start.
Regardless, I think the "dps" part of this discussion is derailing the thread beyond all the other changes that feedback could be provided.
I'm more interested in:
-the loss of ap gain through chains (Nooooooo!)
-the now uselessness of the mitigation provided by AA (too far me think)
-the scaling back of AA's power share (fair?)
-the fix to DG being affected by weapon enchantments (YAY!)
- the double-daily potential these changes provide coupled with the ability to whether it's feasible to do it now that the way in which our AP is gained has changed.
- the changes/fixes to DO and whether that, mixed in with the nerfs to AA, will make DO a pretty competitive build going forward (20% damage buff + HG + DA/FS + PoD vs. AA + HG + feated BoB). More competitive at least.
Nevertheless, I think these changes have the potential to swing things the other way. With an ACDC now (potentially) being able to do feated BOB, WoL, AA, HG, eBTS, DG, Condemning Gaze, Gift of Haste, and Bear Your Sins, it may swing the other way where a 2nd ACDC (the majority of DC's) provides very little.
Currently the 2nd DC (whether AC or DC) provides HG + eFF (and maybe PoD but meh) which is enough to be an ideal groupmate. Now at least, a 2nd DC (assuming AC) will only provide eFF, which to me would be inferior to grabbing another DPS class (or a DO DC). I think if anything this will make it more likely that 5th spot will go to a DPS then a DC going forward.
I am actually a little scared myself about the AP loss on Chains, that is a MASSIVE part of a DC's AP gain. On the bright side PoD restores like what 50% of your AP bar on anything that dies? So that could be kinda cool.
If AA now blocks 20% of your max HP per sphere, and isn't simply broken by a single hit, I think it will still be great mitigation, just not broken.
In theory feated Bob+AA is still better than Terrifying Insight in a BiS party (specifically if the cleric is BiS), so I think it is still probably the best daily. PoD might become a factor if you aren't hitting the debuff cap, but that is fairly rare. In a 10 man raid it is almost impossible to not hit the debuff cap.
DG YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! x 40000
-- EDIT --
I will likely just start a new thread specifically for the statistics we discover on the DPS DC. I personally am genuinely curious how a DPS DC stacks up against these "real DPS" classes so many people have spoken of. I only know what I have played with, so I am excited to run with @thefabricant, or ANYONE who is also curious enough to run a few dungeons with a pathetic 3.2k DPS DC. I am always open to being carried
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ACDC became the dominant build not because all people playing DCs actually like it exponentially better, but because there was demand for it. I think the distribution between who has a personal preference for each DC paragon is fairly evenly split when other things are within reason of being equal.
(edited to add quote for threading)
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The AP loss is going to be pretty bad. I think keeping 1 daily up will be unaffected, but with the new thoughts swirling around my head about rapid firing double dailies, it may be less possible than I thought (which I guess may be an ok thing?). Maybe the DC will become dependant upon a buff GF for help on AP gain? Nothing wrong with group interactions though neither DC nor GF's need any more help finding groups.
I agree feated BoB + AA is still superior to terrifying insight, though (I presume) TI will be easier to apply (people wont need to be close to you to get it), wont be dependent on hitting both the person + their companion to be effective, and will have higher uptime (especially when considering the desire - or at least my desire - to double daily); I would think AA+HG is superior; but TI+HG will be far easier to keep up (with room for say FS or DA as needed/when able).
It also adds a new way to level your DC. Since both TI and HG are not gear dependant, and are pretty simple to stack (no need for insane power/AP gain compared to trying to stack AA/HG) it will likely become the "better" way for lower level DC's to go; and a competitive/complementary build to ACDC at the "end game".
Isn't it already the "better" way to level?Misread, sorry. You meant item level.
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Then as the AC kinda "catches up" due to gear there will still be a nice choice between the two paths where, even if AC still reigns supreme, DO will have a very desirable niche that a 2nd AC can no longer really provide.
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I'm also curious (though not sure how often these "new" powers will be used anyway) as to how these new shields/temp hp's will interact with each other. Will AA, Prophetic Action, Warding Flare, DA all "stack" or overwrite/ignore each other? Hopefully it hits preview (is it even going to preview?) soon so people can take a look at these changes rather than just speculate.
Astral Fury
Righteous Suffering
Living Fire
Piercing Light
Ancient Warding
You might say Fire of the Gods is for personal DPS but most DCs traditionally use it to proc Bear your Sins as a debuff the target for the benefit of the entire party.
and if i had to guess since they are lower in the tree, it's to give an option for healing capstones to do a bit more damage. Although few would take them since everyone expects DC to be a team player and take all party skills.
As for the migitigation aspect of AA, well, it wasn't an exaggerated nerf, there should be no damage immunities in the game (I'm looking at you steel defense...) nor any skill that can allow dps guys to mindlessly stay on red circles and/or survive one shots. Another thing that should be considered is that dps people from high level guilds tend to run with the lifesteal boon, no idea why the even do that but it significantly increases the chances to be 1 shotted by regualr attacks from normal enemies.
I only hope AA-fix will turn things back to normality.
Atm a common mSVA-setup looks like this: 2-3 AA-spammimg DC´s buff the group and the 2 conqueror GF´s, who lock the boss with Knights challenge topping the charts by that, dealing 30 times the dps of a DC.
Checking your ACT you recognize, none of those 2 guys run ITF... but you stood alltime next to him and spammed immortality.
1. PoD and HoF still will consume whole AP bar/goes into cooldown if their target dies or move out of range during the animations BEFORE THE ANIMATION COMPLETE.
2. Especially for HoF, the animation is slow enough, roots you in place while giving you a fake impression you are going to hit that guy three times but actually you are just a dummy being hit by others while dealing no damage to your target. This happens a lot in pvp, please reduce the number of hits into one and speed up the casting animations as well as give the true cc immunity and dmg immunity during the cast animation.
About Warding Flare (if any of those changes are live on page 1)
Casting this power the CD jumps from 21 to 16 the moment I attack, sometimes down to 13 and back to 16, can´t understand why it happening like this.
At the current state i could imagine to use BoH +Astral Shield+ warding flare+ Annoited Army for a mitigation/heal setup, using Astrals shield devine+BoH devine for Hp buff and heal
Warding Flare is 2/3 on CD, all in all it is active about 25%, laughable, It should be up all time with a decent recovery, otherwise it is useless, only shielding a small percentage and being up for a very short period.
Thinking about 300k+ hits from giants, it might be a small help anyway.
Better pump up the shield effect - by that you get an overpowered spell in PVP, making the hole group invulnerable by adding Astral shield on top.
Atm PVP is dead and you got to decide if or if not those spells should be from any interest in PVE.
Lot´s of things a DC provides in PVP in times of tenacity can be considered to be completely broken like Agent of devine, empowered Astral shield, AA at current state etc etc.
400k hits vs PVP ....if you want PVP to stay alive you have to reset your hole strategy anyway, turning the wheel far far back like zero tenacity, equalized stats etc., zero lifesteal, otherwise this branch of the game has to be considered as dead.
PS: please no more videos about DC´s , who obviously never even read any tooltip, it hurts.
maybe?
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I comment the videos shown in this threat , who want to demonstrate the effectiveness of a class and by that slowing down the hole group for about 50% by slotting powers and feats that only support your own class.
Same as those GF´s I met in mSVA, who slot encounterpower and don´t use ITF only to top the paingiver.
What comes next, a Hellbringer warlock without PoP. That´s by sure a personal thing, but it is hard to argument and see the benefit. Live with the supporter role or level a striker class is my response, otherwise you allways have problems outside a premade group.
Also note, the above changes aren't live or on preview as far as I know. Now, I am going to try to reply while keeping this on-topic.
I personally made the disclaimer that I normally wouldn't run a full DPS rotation in that party, it slows the party down as you said. However I would normally run with another DC, so casting BtS twice has no benefit. In this situation I use FF instead of Divine Glow, which doesn't decrease my DPS much (it actually goes up in single target).
Now, the only way we only know some paths are superior/inferior, is by testing them. People can say "I already tested it for you, go home", but I wouldn't trust 99% of other players, for the same reason they don't trust me. I don't believe they tested it correctly (or fairly), and they don't have all the numbers and facts on the table (if that is even possible to do). As easily as they can say "dude my CW walks into CN and does triple the DPS of my DC", I can just as easily say "dude my DC walks into CN and does ten times the DPS of my GWF". No numbers, no full gear/companion layouts, no facts, no argument (yeah, I don't have much of one either).
** EEEHH ** You failed! stay on topic!
Okay okay, so why does it even matter, and why should it be considered for balance purposes? Because the Righteous tree has been reduced near exclusively to a personal DPS increase.The only feats in the Righteous path that do anything other than increase personal DPS are: Bear Your Sins (capped debuff, useless), Condemning Gaze (capped debuff, useless), Power of the Sun (-5% enemy damage, fairly useless), Furious Intervention (AP gain, more dailies, woah that might be useful), Weapon of Light (about a 3-7% party DPS buff depending on your party, not bad), Avatar (massive personal dps and cdr boost, but must be ignored by most supports, since it doesn't last for entire fights like msva). Everything else is exclusively useful for personal DPS.
So what about an unoptimal party? Capped debuffs are useful in a party without a MoF right? Yes, but why are we worrying about perfection, and the speed of a run if we are going to just pretend one of the biggest pieces doesn't exist? Why not assume we also couldn't find a tank then? Why is the DC (or the GWF lol) suddenly not tank spec to compensate? Yeah no, you build a character to fit the role you want it to fill, within the subset of roles your class is remotely capable of filling, and generally in relation to the people you play with. If you always have a MoF friend to run with, you likely wouldn't consider Condemning Gaze or Bear Your Sins to be very useful now would you?
** EEEHH ** You failed again moron! stay on topic!
I would say something like "If Righteous is for buffs/debuff, then please buff it so much, it is so bad", but looking at the other Cleric trees, they are in an even worse state. Virtuous needs "weapon damage' removed from like every single feat in the tree, Faithful needs several "weapon damage" references removed from the tree, and both of the trees need something other than healing added (movement speed, actual mitigation, maybe some chance at activating quartermasters/dragon hoards on heals?).
Now if a CW is allowed to sacrifice all their DPS for a support build (MoF) and be good at it, why is a DC sacrificing all of their support for a DPS build, and being good at it not in the realm of possibility? Key words being "and being good at it". The point of my DPS DC to to test this theory (well that, and to do daily/weekly quests without losing my mind [...again]). After the changes to DC, DO DCs won't even have to slot any powers or do anything special to buff their whole party by 20%. They can freely cast whatever spells they want, actually they could probably just stand there and look pretty and still would be contributing a lot to the party (assuming Terrifying Insight works as described).
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@dreadnaught#5263 Can we get the Virtuous capstones to count as a kill for the purposes of Boons (ex. Elvish Fury), Items (ex. Bloodlord's Visage), and Enchants (ex. Dragon's Hoard)? So that way if someone takes damage near a Virtuous, the Virtuous get a stack of Elvish Fury, a stack of Bloodlord's Visage, and a chance at some refining points? And when someone drops below 45% HP with a Faithful's Gift of Faith on them, it will give the Faithful a stack of Elvish Fury, a stack of Bloodlord's Visage, and a chance at refining points?
This is a huge issue on live, where the support paths can't even get their normal refining points, due to never killing anything in a dungeon.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Everyone can chose his role in a party, I only think a DC is not the best class to run a dps (more or less the worst imo, maybe this will change with rework).
About the capped debuff. It is a good way to handle the problems with overbuffs, fastruns and excludet classes that can´t contribut like this. Otherwise they would be excludet. Someone asked for decapping PoD and other debuffs, this only will lead to a misbalance between classes.
I don´t know if 200% is a good cutoff, since my GF achieves allready up to 180% effectiveness on his own.
I really don´t know what happens when a mof-CW enters a group and why I get effectiveness up to 400% by that.
This is a secret kept by cryptics devs (who might run CW´s themself).
Even running 1 dancing shield and 4 sellswords, 400% should not be achieveable.
Maybe michela123 missed some effects in that List.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8Y_AmqnnhOdaCT2Sg9e-OcC0m6q5nUJLfujZVsI1Z0/edit#gid=0
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(except AA nerf, that can come yesterday)
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John