A decent equipped DC even not using AA has no issues to run solocontent. Last days I met some 1.8 IL classes in Bry Shandar and also poor equipped player running the New content. Sure they struggle. A propper build DC using DG, chains etc. should have no problems. If someone cries about being just a buffmachine...just skip your Buffs and try to build a devotion Pally. Or go build a striker, those classes will only be judged by the damage they deal. Lot's if tears even being the best leaderclass ingame by far.
You have a DC correct ? What IL are you ? How many DCs do you have ? I am not antagonizing you with my questions. I am asking cos i know how hard it was for me to level my cleric through the new zones. Not cos i can not kill anything. I can. But it takes me longer. Have in mind i actually do have 2.5 Protection Pally, 2,4 Warlock and and around 2k CW.
On a DC , your dailies do take longer if you are not a DPS cleric, especially if you run all of the SOMI dailies. River district is the same. You need heroics and you need to guard the posts and kill random mobs for the currency. Dps clerics are different then not dps clerics. Have that in mind. And yes, chains and light + glow or you pick forgehammer or something like that...It takes you longer. But that is beside the point. If i am to run hard end content , i expect to be equiped with powers to save my own life. Dodge does not do it. You can not dodge getting one shot. I expect having something to help my team survive. To help my tank survive. Cos if he goes down we all go down. You can avoid stuff for so long until it hits you. And then what ? Will you rely on bugs to finish a dungeon ? In order to heal i need to be alive. Not on a floor after turtle body hits me the first time. Or the manticore hits me cos there was no red dot on the floor. Do not even get me started with lag in some of the dungeons. Just look at manticore boss in FBI. So how do you plan to survive that ? Mass scrolls of life ? Is that what all will come down to ?
If you really feel that clerics are only good for buffs / debuffs and damage, that is your view. I disagree with it. I feel clerics should have a chance to be what they where meant to be. Healers first, everything second. You already sacrifice a lot of your stats to achieve that anyway. Same with DO clerics and same with DPS clerics. Something needs to be sacrificed in order to achieve something else.
I do run a 3.5 warlock, a 3.3 GF (tank) and a DC 3.3 (right/buffer) atm, wich i leveld through Somi and new content to update his boons in short time. My 2.8GWF is just invoking, not enough time to care about. I know pretty good how bad it feels like running solocotent as virous or faithfull DC, did that for a long time. My AC/DC runs a plaguefire ans has no archons, no dps setup, RI not at cap. It´s a powersharing build, low crit. Heading to SOMI you read 100% all day "lf 2 AA/DC .." -Noone asks for a leader/healer or a devotion Pally, never.These classes or setups are near forgotten , due to a broken build/class spamming one daily. -Noone needs a tank-GF, due to a broken build, all you see are conquereor dps setups. -Noone needs to dodge, noone needs to avoid red areas, noone needs to think about deadly bossattacks.
Somone mentioned missing any mitigation if AA drops. The only dungeon where this is necessary, due to the fact that all player ignore bossabilities and strategy is SVA. You don´t need AA immunity runnning FBI, CN, it just makes things easier, agree. A GF can tank CN even without a DC and without using his block, having some HP and DR capped. Apart from that, a DC an buff debuff pretty good, look above, getting his teammates near DR cap by that
So, what is gonne change after rework , if no other broken class/setup will follow?
1. Some DC's will revive the healing path, like faithfull capstone. That tree has pretty strong healing abilities, gift of the gods is pretty nice too and the capstone will be very effective. Leader classes like OP/templock might have a niche to get into groups beside a DO-buffer and a AC-buffer, at least the chance is higher.
2. Some GF´s will: a. respec into tank setup and b. into Tactition again, due to the pretty good synergy between DC and Tactition GF, leading to stronger AP gain. That´s what I gonna do, apart from the fact that a GF can shield up to 70% from incoming damage by marked targets, using KV+united and daunting challenge. If he uses KC (50% less damage to the group) it´s up to 85%... has to be shown if this is possible at high end setup to block this damage stading in front of Svardborg.
3. Some player may rethink their defensive abilities, atm everyone is runing a glasscanon setup. DR and deflect might be from interest and some builds using damage debuffs towards the boss as well.
Community adepts builds will change, the smart ones will find a way to get along for sure.
0
erosennin92Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 38Arc User
If someone cries about being just a buffmachine...just skip your Buffs and try to build a devotion Pally.
It would be more correct to give clerics just one feat tree and not 3 don't you think. I suppose that if 3 feat trees (and 2 legendary paths) still exist there is a reason... Anyway, as @araneax said it is just different opinions, and I disagree with it too. If healers are barely needed atm it's ok, but give us decent options to support the party that way (Virtuous capstone still didn't go, after more than 1 year, 1 month ago in increasing the HoT) , if mitigation isn't needed (but i think it will be as rapo says) let the players decide that but give the possibility to choose that path.
Azeroth Godwill - (Half)Drow - Virtuous AC DC - iLvL 4k
AC/DC or DO/DC still will be the best buffer by far in this game. No class will deal same ammounts of buffs, nothing to fear for anyone and no chance for most any other leader to top this. AA is still powerfull, Ancient Warding is a 20% duration increase, 10 seconds is sufficient for a buff like this. The cc immunity is a very powerfull buff anyway. 33% power is a buff for about 10 to 15k, depending on your basestats, combined with a maxed companion it´s 40-55k power all in all. You get a mitigationbuff on top. No, other daily can do the same. If you combine AS+AA+DG+BF+BtS you achieve a 40% DR buff+ 17,5%DR+ 15% DR +80/60/40/20% mititgation + 50% damagedebuff+40% Damagebuff + cc immunity + >100k power...anything else needed?
Even 4.3 clerics i know do not have 40 k power. They are around 33 to maybe 35 k if they invest everything in power. Sacrificing a bit of everything else, including armor pen. I do not recollect seeing more then 2 clerics with 40 k power. I remember one who was a BIS character and that guy rocked it. I was awed.
I certainly do not have that kind of an amount and i am almost to 3.9 k . 23 to 25 k power, 13 k recovery and 8 k a.p ( thank you guild boons ) and 12 crit cos you cant freaking avoid having it. With all the crit on different gear and artifacts. Defense is a must have so 14 k of defense. And that is after checking all of the clerics on my friend list who are above 4.0.
That´s me unbuffed near 39k basepower with dusk bonus in party. Twisted at 13 stacks. At 3x12 bondings 14 k crit, 12 k recovery, 4k arp, 19k defense. Recovery 19-27k with insignia boni Artificer persuation, depending on my powerstat, wich can be up 50%, optimal would be Forgehammer or mythic dragon heart, possible uptime 100%.
Radiants: 4x rank 9, 1x rank 10, 3x rank 12, 1x rank 11 ......... .....missing 1900 power at 9x rank 12 No powerbonus from those Survivor Wrist, that drop in ndemo.......missing 2200 power Artifacts not mythic. .......................................................................missing 600 power No legendary rings of Hellig............................................................missing 900 power no vivified armor.............................................................................no clue about 1100 power 2 pieces, at tier 2 twisted at 13 stacks 2080 power+6046 =8126-7622(relic)= ............+420 power, but doesn´t count to basepower, so relic is better in the end no legendary companion.................................................................missing 580 power (beside some crit arp recovery) no legend.mount.............................................................................missing 2000 power no maxed insigia boni.....................................................................missing 2400 power ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ .......................................................................................................missing 11260 power landing at about 50k power more or less unbuffed, no clue what your BIS friends do all day, but they are not BIS in terms of powersharing.
1. Some DC's will revive the healing path, like faithfull capstone. That tree has pretty strong healing abilities, gift of the gods is pretty nice too and the capstone will be very effective. Leader classes like OP/templock might have a niche to get into groups beside a DO-buffer and a AC-buffer, at least the chance is higher.
oh come on now...-.- You´re asking them to nerf lifesteal into oblivion then? My cw is traipsing around with something like 2-3k (totally accidental) defense and didn´t even have the decency to put some more on the companion, yes. The gift of faith does zilch if the toon tries to do some serious kamikaze and if it survives some huge hit it NEVER needs a dc to heal it up. The gift of faith might kick in some nanoseconds more quickly than ls...yay?...in pve it is completely and utterly superfluous except for a very few (avoidable) situations. Now if there was a dc that could actually support the tank in terms of mitigation/protection....THEN it MIGHT make more sense for dps to up the help coming from those departments with some defense/deflect of their own. But healing won´t be thing again...the lifesteal alone makes sure of that not to mention the myriad of other sources.
But for some nonsensical reason you seem to be opposed to the idea of that. Why on earth would anyone be opposed to a dc having CHOICES. Choices in terms of the path you take....mitigation/protection with some buff (virtuous) or buff/debuff/dps (righteous)....and choices in terms of the encounters and dailies you use....mitigation/protection/buff/debuff/dps????
And things like astral shield OBVIOUSLY are outdated now in pve, not to mention the sorry state of a shitload of feats. At the stage the game is now they do not do what they did at an earlier stage of the game so the devs know pretty well a complete overhaul is in order. It´s just aggravating if people make suggestions that simply don´t make any sense.
There is so much wiggle room between the aa-cheese we had and downgrading the dc to a pure-(de-)buff-bot. It´s not only black and white. How about SYNERGY between tank and dc...choices...so exciting...
1. Some DC's will revive the healing path, like faithfull capstone. That tree has pretty strong healing abilities, gift of the gods is pretty nice too and the capstone will be very effective. Leader classes like OP/templock might have a niche to get into groups beside a DO-buffer and a AC-buffer, at least the chance is higher.
oh come on now...-.- You´re asking them to nerf lifesteal into oblivion then? My cw is traipsing around with something like 2-3k (totally accidental) defense and didn´t even have the decency to put some more on the companion, yes. The gift of faith does zilch if the toon tries to do some serious kamikaze and if it survives some huge hit it NEVER needs a dc to heal it up. The gift of faith might kick in some nanoseconds more quickly than ls...yay?...in pve it is completely and utterly superfluous except for a very few (avoidable) situations. Now if there was a dc that could actually support the tank in terms of mitigation/protection....THEN it MIGHT make more sense for dps to up the help coming from those departments with some defense/deflect of their own. But healing won´t be thing again...the lifesteal alone makes sure of that not to mention the myriad of other sources.
But for some nonsensical reason you seem to be opposed to the idea of that. Why on earth would anyone be opposed to a dc having CHOICES. Choices in terms of the path you take....mitigation/protection with some buff (virtuous) or buff/debuff/dps (righteous)....and choices in terms of the encounters and dailies you use....mitigation/protection/buff/debuff/dps????
And things like astral shield OBVIOUSLY are outdated now in pve, not to mention the sorry state of a shitload of feats. At the stage the game is now they do not do what they did at an earlier stage of the game so the devs know pretty well a complete overhaul is in order. It´s just aggravating if people make suggestions that simply don´t make any sense.
There is so much wiggle room between the aa-cheese we had and downgrading the dc to a pure-(de-)buff-bot. It´s not only black and white. How about SYNERGY between tank and dc...choices...so exciting...
I guess you are outdated somehow. You find AS in FBI, mSVA lots of the time, it spends a good ammount of AP, pushing you to at least >50% DR, by that synergizes with KV preventing your tank to be oneshotted , because a cW with 2 k defense is getting hit for 400k lol Your toon at zero deflect and maybe 4k defense might hit the floor 10 times a run, others are not. The glasscanon-builds gonna fail, so be creative and adpat or not. GWF can easily tank a big HE on his own btw. A smart TR can avoid a lot of damage running uphill in FBI. I am 100% sure there are enough player willing to learn and willing to change their builds. GF/OP/DC, near all other can debuff/ buff, a warlock can, a Hunter can support etc. There a options beside standing 24/7 behind the boss inside 3 red zones and spamming encounter.
I can't even with some of the people posting on this thread. I seen one guy upset that the desired group play will become 1 Buff, 1 tank, 1 heal, 2 DPS.. Like really? That's what it should be!! Honestly if you haven't been putting groups together trying to cover those party roles then you're gimping your party. Are they that mad that they can't run 3 glass cannons with 2 AA spamming DCs? People are really that bad at this game that they feel they can't play the game without AA? Or that DPS can't take some mitigation in their builds to make it easier for the tanks and healers?
Btw I tested something on my GWF. I switched my DoD rings on my Con Artist to Stien rings. Running the same build I always do and losing about 10-15% of my DPS I was able to rack up 70% DR and 58% Deflection (after bondings proc on a dummy target, this doesn't reflect my Trans Negation or Countless scars or other abilities that put me well over the DR cap) It cost me nothing to do this since I would have trashed or salvaged those Stien rings anyway. You add a GF running KV further reducing my incoming damage by 50% ... Build a group around the premise that everyone needs to balance out their builds to make the job of the tanks easier, you will see that clerics that heal/buff can make up the difference. If you have a Faith Cleric dropping HG and Divine Glows keeping everyone alive and buffed but feel the buffs are lacking then pick up a MoF CW to round out the buff/debuffs. There's so much potential for group composition if people could get over their own needs.
DEVS: GREAT JOB ON THE CHANGES!! I'm already planning out my next DC build around these changes.
Added note: if you're complaining about Everfrost content being too hard without AA and running in groups that remove EFR gear the second they enter the dungeon or raid, or run the bare minimum of 28% with the aid of a 5-10% EFR potion then take your complaints elsewhere. Yeah it's tough at first but once you've done a few runs and have the gear with EFR on it the content is trivial. Our groups are running 50-60% EFR and no AA to save us and we are flying through it still. Stacking shields and Auras is way too easy. Honestly, learn your class, learn other classes, and learn the rotations of your enemies and this game is stupid easy.
AC/DC or DO/DC still will be the best buffer by far in this game. No class will deal same ammounts of buffs, nothing to fear for anyone and no chance for most any other leader to top this. AA is still powerfull, Ancient Warding is a 20% duration increase, 10 seconds is sufficient for a buff like this. The cc immunity is a very powerfull buff anyway. 33% power is a buff for about 10 to 15k, depending on your basestats, combined with a maxed companion it´s 40-55k power all in all. You get a mitigationbuff on top. No, other daily can do the same. If you combine AS+AA+DG+BF+BtS you achieve a 40% DR buff+ 17,5%DR+ 15% DR +80/60/40/20% mititgation + 50% damagedebuff+40% Damagebuff + cc immunity + >100k power...anything else needed?
Even 4.3 clerics i know do not have 40 k power. They are around 33 to maybe 35 k if they invest everything in power. Sacrificing a bit of everything else, including armor pen. I do not recollect seeing more then 2 clerics with 40 k power. I remember one who was a BIS character and that guy rocked it. I was awed.
I certainly do not have that kind of an amount and i am almost to 3.9 k . 23 to 25 k power, 13 k recovery and 8 k a.p ( thank you guild boons ) and 12 crit cos you cant freaking avoid having it. With all the crit on different gear and artifacts. Defense is a must have so 14 k of defense. And that is after checking all of the clerics on my friend list who are above 4.0.
That´s me unbuffed near 39k basepower with dusk bonus in party. Twisted at 13 stacks. At 3x12 bondings 14 k crit, 12 k recovery, 4k arp, 19k defense. Recovery 19-27k with insignia boni Artificer persuation, depending on my powerstat, wich can be up 50%, optimal would be Forgehammer or mythic dragon heart, possible uptime 100%.
Radiants: 4x rank 9, 1x rank 10, 3x rank 12, 1x rank 11 ......... .....missing 1900 power at 9x rank 12 No powerbonus from those Survivor Wrist, that drop in ndemo.......missing 2200 power Artifacts not mythic. .......................................................................missing 600 power No legendary rings of Hellig............................................................missing 900 power no vivified armor.............................................................................no clue about 1100 power 2 pieces, at tier 2 twisted at 13 stacks 2080 power+6046 =8126-7622(relic)= ............+420 power, but doesn´t count to basepower, so relic is better in the end no legendary companion.................................................................missing 580 power (beside some crit arp recovery) no legend.mount.............................................................................missing 2000 power no maxed insigia boni.....................................................................missing 2400 power ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ .......................................................................................................missing 11260 power landing at about 50k power more or less unbuffed, no clue what your BIS friends do all day, but they are not BIS in terms of powersharing.
I like your build. You sacrificed recovery for it , right ? Can i ask what do you think is optimal to have if talking about defense and armor pen. ? The guys i have on my friend list all have around 12 or more k of recovery. One of them has around 8k , he says that is enough but he went for a pure crit build, he has more crit then power. I am capped right now at 23 to 25 k of power. I am still missing a few enchantments rank 12. 5 of them i think. The + 5 rings i did not manage to get. But i do have the one you mentioned 1 legendary ring of Hellig. And i am still using Elemental Dragonflight gear. No vivified cos i did not recieve any yet. And i run FBI a lot. I see you went for power gear though. Jarl's gaze is amazing for stacking power. And Dusk + drow as well give the best possible stats. We have the same underwear and the set though XD lolz I did switch it with Tiamat set a while ago to see how it will work out. But i am disapointed in it.
I didn´t propose a cw should be able to stand around like a tree in 3 red zones-.- where´s the fun in that and why would I insist on doing that? At least someone in this thread on some earlier page made some effort to offer an idea on how to make healing more important again...it was something about nerfing ls and linking its effectiveness to the regeneration stat...at least then two paths dedicated to healing would be more exciting again... I´m sitting on a lot of free respec tokens so I´m not opposed to changing builds at all...and yah...my little tr was never such a squishball as the cw...I might dust him off if I get bored...it never so far occurred to me to stack defense or deflect on a cw though...*shrug* Well, I´ve given some feedback and palavered more than enough in this thread already:P...so I´ll just wait and see now.
Devs maybe you need to read all crits in other forums and in the game, because now many ppl says "nerf" about your new DC changes. They are right, this changes will arruin to DC.
Pls note how difficult is actuallly to get DCs for svag and with this new changes nobody will want to use a DC o make one.
Devs maybe you need to read all crits in other forums and in the game, because now many ppl says "nerf" about your new DC changes. They are right, this changes will arruin to DC.
Pls note how difficult is actuallly to get DCs for svag and with this new changes nobody will want to use a DC o make one.
I'm not sure what you are saying. These changes should make it easier to level/solo on a DC, and should increase the amount of DPS a DC can give their party (through buffs). The main "nerf" is to Anointed Army, which is currently just taking all the fun out of the game, and additionally makes one paragon infinitely better than the other.
If there is another thread where they are debating AA nerfs, could you link it? I am not seeing it, and I would love to throw in my 2 cents there too
PS: To be honest, I think some of the changes make DC "too good" all over again, but we will have to see.
I dont know man, who gonna benefit from this ?DPS classes gonna die more often, blame DCs, like they always do... And I really want to see how people complete FBI in 30 min with all these lags and no AA.
Well yes everyone is going to die more often, that of course is the expected scenario when you remove an immortality effect that allows players to 100% ignore a hit regardless of how powerful it is.
Removing immortality was the justification for changing Divine Protector (bubble) on the Paladin. However they nerfed this twice and didn't consider increasing the timer after significantly reducing it's effectiveness on the 2nd pass...
Same with Binding Oath, remove the immortality but keep the part that can kill the pally lol.
It was also the justification for removing unlimited temp health gain via unstoppable for the GWF.
I'm not bothered by the reduction in power or even the removal of AP gain from Chains, but I do think they've made a mistake by changing AA's defensive component to 20% temp HP. 25% reduction on incoming damage would've been far more appropriate when you consider the balance between player HP and NPC damage output.
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Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
I've been reading this thread, sooo with the upcoming changes, if I made a DC would it be better to level using DO DC?
You should level using DO anyway as it's more oriented to personal DPS and consider switching when you are L70, completed most of your boons and are looking to run T2 dungeons.
During this time, put all feat points into Righteous.
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Xael De Armadeon: DC
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Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Good changes overall I think. I am a little concerned about the removal of AP gain from divine chains. That's the bread and butter of most daily spamming DC's. With the nerf of power sharing to AA at least somewhat related to being able to use both AA and HG, I'm just wondering how we'll be able to do so. I suppose with the fixes toward some of our other AP generating methods, it may not be too bad.
The 30 percent damage increase should be scrapped and the other two trees besides Righteous should get damage boosts in their feats.
You're STILL worried about people doing more DPS than the GWF? Honestly mate, you really need to stop taking these things personally.
You don't run a DC so you don't understand the pain involved in running all the solo daily stuff when you have a team support oriented build. You need to appreciate that players are MORE likely to run support builds if they can get through pve zones in a reasonable time.
Have a think about where DC's usually come on the Paingiver chart (say 5 mill compared to your 80-100 mill?) now add 30% to their score. Puts them at about 6.5 mill yes? Are you still feeling threatened? (note: if you say yes to that, I know a good shrink I can recommend)
I respecced from a DPS build on my cleric when I hit 3k as I wanted to be useful to teams but the increase in clearance times was huge. Not only do you lose 20% of your DPS from feats, you lose a lot of RI etc too.
This is a huge turn-off for anyone trying out the DC as a class and is one of the reasons we don't have enough people running this class.
If you're recommending players switch to healing paths and away from the de/buff then: (a) you're shooting yourself in the foot (b) You really don't understand the DC class and should perhaps stick to commenting on areas you know (i.e. the GWF only)
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Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
The 30 percent damage increase should be scrapped and the other two trees besides Righteous should get damage boosts in their feats.
You're STILL worried about people doing more DPS than the GWF? Honestly mate, you really need to stop taking these things personally.
You don't run a DC so you don't understand the pain involved in running all the solo daily stuff when you have a team support oriented build. You need to appreciate that players are MORE likely to run support builds if they can get through pve zones in a reasonable time.
Have a think about where DC's usually come on the Paingiver chart (say 5 mill compared to your 80-100 mill?) now add 30% to their score. Puts them at about 6.5 mill yes? Are you still feeling threatened? (note: if you say yes to that, I know a good shrink I can recommend)
I specced out of a DO DPS build on my cleric when I hit 3k as I wanted to be useful to teams but the increase in clearance times was huge. Not only do you lose 20% of your DPS from feats, you lose a lot of RI etc too.
This is a huge turn-off for anyone trying out the DC as a class and is one of the reasons we don't have enough people running this class.
If you're recommending players switch to healing paths and away from the de/buff then: (a) you're shooting yourself in the foot (b) You really don't understand the DC class and should perhaps stick to commenting on areas you know (i.e. the GWF only)
Almost every BIS DPS DC is saying Righteous DC does not need 30% more damage. So, think again.
Think again about your reply. Lets break it down: "BIS DPS". So a 4.3k player is saying they get through their dailies in a reasonable time. Astounding. How about the ones that are between 1.5k and 3.5k? Mine is just shy of 3.1k and you know how long it takes me to kill Baphomet with my support build? About 6 or 7 minutes. My 2.5k GWF kills him in about 90 seconds.
"Almost Every". You know, I haven't noticed any BIS DC's on here saying they "do not need 30% more damage" so perhaps this should be considered as 3rd party anecdotal evidence - or "my mate's great and he tells me he doesn't need more dps". Yeah I'll trust you on that one.
Seriously mate, nearly every post you make on these forums is dedicated to reducing the DPS of other classes or saying the GWF need a boost. I'm starting to think you can't help it.
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Lt. Thackeray: HR
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Yay you found one. Good for you. Any more? I ask because you said "most".
There are a couple of points you've overlooked: * they are reducing the power from AA gained by 17% . When you factor in the return value from a companion that's actually a lot higher, more like a 26% drop in power for the DC and as such mitigates the 30% increase in DPS. * If a support build is struggling to get through their dailies they are more likely to switch to a DPS build. Consequently, increasing their soloing ability will encourage them to stick with the support build. * All classes that are support oriented have a percentage of players that will try a DPS route regardless. This change is more of an assist to the vast majority that run support than the few that don't. I know a bunch of DCs and only one of them runs a DPS build.
Go through the list of DCs in your guild and make note of those who are specifically DPS oriented and compare it to the number that are built for support. You'll find they are a very small minority.
Edit: do you have a spare character slot? If so, create a DC. Get it to 70 give it a support build. Lend it all your GWFs enchantments then try your hand in SKT. You'll be shocked at how much longer things take to die.
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bawkru said: ya reading back threw all this with some of the new post ........ plz plz plz DEV play with us on live server most here still dont know what they should.... if u go by this my DC will do GWF damage wile still adding nearly 300% to everyone's out going dps. plz dont use forum to make these changes play with us and look at the numbers yourself. or dont ATM i would love these changes would make my class even more broken then it already is. i wont mind at all to be DPS/TANK/HEALER/BUFFER/DEBUFFER... other than fbi/sva/new SP we can already solo the dungys so why not speed it up for me .
bawkru said: ya reading back threw all this with some of the new post ........ plz plz plz DEV play with us on live server most here still dont know what they should.... if u go by this my DC will do GWF damage wile still adding nearly 300% to everyone's out going dps. plz dont use forum to make these changes play with us and look at the numbers yourself. or dont ATM i would love these changes would make my class even more broken then it already is. i wont mind at all to be DPS/TANK/HEALER/BUFFER/DEBUFFER... other than fbi/sva/new SP we can already solo the dungys so why not speed it up for me .
Sounds about right.
This cleric is you right? Two points: that's a DO DPS build and we all know that a cleric can do dps level damage if specced that way. Try doing that as an AC support build then tell me why players should want to stick to supporting other people if they can't get through their solo stuff easily.
As I said, I ran a DO DPS build for a few months as it cleared stuff quickly - not as quickly as my CW of equal IL but still very well. I respecced to an AC support build for teams.
This is also the reason I supported an earlier suggestion that the queuing system should allow players to choose their role in a dungeon queue rather than have it decided for them by their class.
Thing is, even with a dps spec, the numbers you were generating in that video weren't very impressive - if you had an AC support build I'd be impressed. My Pally does about double the damage shown there but then again he's nearly 3.7k but in a T2 run I still only do about a 3rd the DPS of an equal IL GWF.
Lets see a video of you in CN, showing the IL of the group and then show us the scores at the end. That's a better test of a dps build.
But of course to quote myself from a previous reply: "All classes that are support oriented have a percentage of players that will try a DPS route regardless. This change is more of an assist to the vast majority that run support than the few that don't."
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
This cleric is you right? Two points: that's a DO DPS build and we all know that a cleric can do dps level damage if specced that way. Try doing that as an AC support build then tell me why players should want to stick to supporting other people if they can't get through their solo stuff easily.
This is also the reason I supported an earlier suggestion that the queuing system should allow players to choose their role in a dungeon queue rather than have it decided for them by their class.
I have also wanted this option for quite awhile. It's in other games, and regardless of how viable a class is at said role, there is nothing worse than having a dps spec tank in CN (please read "low item level" into this. Obviously a 4k DPS tank can still tank CN), and that is legal according to the current system. The current system isn't saving anyone from trolls.
Thing is, even with a dps spec, the numbers you were generating in that video weren't very impressive - if you had an AC support build I'd be impressed. My Pally does about double the damage shown there but then again he's nearly 3.7k but in a T2 run I still only do about a 3rd the DPS of an equal IL GWF.
Something to note is that I was 2.8k in the video (it wasn't recent), and I didn't use an optimal rotation. I was more or less goofing off. I never actually landed a fully empowered daunting light. Most of a cleric's damage comes from divinity chains of blazing light spam. (msva ACT chart)
Lets see a video of you in CN, showing the IL of the group and then show us the scores at the end. That's a better test of a dps build.
I can try to remember to record any runs I do in the next few days that have people near my item level in them. I frequently run with people considerably higher than me, and people considerably lower, so it will be hard to get a "fair" run.
But of course to quote myself from a previous reply: "All classes that are support oriented have a percentage of players that will try a DPS route regardless. This change is more of an assist to the vast majority that run support than the few that don't."
Yup, the issue is when the DPS build becomes the most optimal build, and wins against DPS only classes. I'm not saying this change will make that happen. Just saying that caution needs to be taken.
I do want to make a note though. The changes to Lightning Enchantment made the fantasy of an effective DPS DC just that--a fantasy. DCs in my opinion were close-ish in DPS to actual DPS classes. After the changes to Lightning, DC doesn't stand a chance.
EDIT Oh and I am only playing a DPS cleric because I was too lazy to respec after level 70, and don't like the thought of grinding out SOMI/RD on a support DC. I tried it, it's not fun. Even if they were to increase "support" damage, I would still play the DPS version, simply because it is faster. Why kill stuff slowly, when I can kill it faster?
I feel like you both are arguing very odd things. The extra 30% damage will help with the solo grind (the majority of the game nowadays) which is a good thing. It will marginally help our paingiver lives in dungeon runs. I am a "BIS" DC, and my average FBI run looks something like (400m DPS1, 375m DPS2, 150m ("DPS"3), 120m(Tank), 100m(me; DC). Depending on random stuff that occurs, maybe I do better, maybe I do worse. Sometimes I steal that 4th position from the tank, sometimes I dont. But adding essentially 30m to my damage and deducting ~8m from each of the other classes that I got instead basically changes nothing.
I could theoretically stop using eBTS and use eDL instead for some more damage, or stop using feated Blessing of Battle to grab living fire. Whatever. All that accomplishes is at best I will sacrifice a ton of buffing abilities, make our runs worse, and steal that 3rd paingiver slot (from the "DPS" that REALLY needs to work on his character). I think thats fine.
If ANY dps is worried these changes will make DC's dps machines they are nuts. The damage increase isn't "needed" in the sense that I can complete my dailies just fine (as a BIS DC), but it definitely helps the lower levels
Comments
I know pretty good how bad it feels like running solocotent as virous or faithfull DC, did that for a long time.
My AC/DC runs a plaguefire ans has no archons, no dps setup, RI not at cap. It´s a powersharing build, low crit.
Heading to SOMI you read 100% all day "lf 2 AA/DC .."
-Noone asks for a leader/healer or a devotion Pally, never.These classes or setups are near forgotten , due to a broken build/class spamming one daily.
-Noone needs a tank-GF, due to a broken build, all you see are conquereor dps setups.
-Noone needs to dodge, noone needs to avoid red areas, noone needs to think about deadly bossattacks.
Somone mentioned missing any mitigation if AA drops. The only dungeon where this is necessary, due to the fact that all player ignore bossabilities and strategy is SVA. You don´t need AA immunity runnning FBI, CN, it just makes things easier, agree.
A GF can tank CN even without a DC and without using his block, having some HP and DR capped.
Apart from that, a DC an buff debuff pretty good, look above, getting his teammates near DR cap by that
So, what is gonne change after rework , if no other broken class/setup will follow?
1. Some DC's will revive the healing path, like faithfull capstone. That tree has pretty strong healing abilities, gift of the gods is pretty nice too and the capstone will be very effective.
Leader classes like OP/templock might have a niche to get into groups beside a DO-buffer and a AC-buffer, at least the chance is higher.
2. Some GF´s will:
a. respec into tank setup and
b. into Tactition again, due to the pretty good synergy between DC and Tactition GF, leading to stronger AP gain.
That´s what I gonna do, apart from the fact that a GF can shield up to 70% from incoming damage by marked targets, using KV+united and daunting challenge. If he uses KC (50% less damage to the group) it´s up to 85%... has to be shown if this is possible at high end setup to block this damage stading in front of Svardborg.
3. Some player may rethink their defensive abilities, atm everyone is runing a glasscanon setup. DR and deflect might be from interest and some builds using damage debuffs towards the boss as well.
Community adepts builds will change, the smart ones will find a way to get along for sure.
Anyway, as @araneax said it is just different opinions, and I disagree with it too. If healers are barely needed atm it's ok, but give us decent options to support the party that way (Virtuous capstone still didn't go, after more than 1 year, 1 month ago in increasing the HoT) , if mitigation isn't needed (but i think it will be as rapo says) let the players decide that but give the possibility to choose that path.
Azeroth Godwill - (Half)Drow - Virtuous AC DC - iLvL 4k
At 3x12 bondings 14 k crit, 12 k recovery, 4k arp, 19k defense.
Recovery 19-27k with insignia boni Artificer persuation, depending on my powerstat, wich can be up 50%, optimal would be Forgehammer or mythic dragon heart, possible uptime 100%.
Radiants: 4x rank 9, 1x rank 10, 3x rank 12, 1x rank 11 ......... .....missing 1900 power at 9x rank 12
No powerbonus from those Survivor Wrist, that drop in ndemo.......missing 2200 power
Artifacts not mythic. .......................................................................missing 600 power
No legendary rings of Hellig............................................................missing 900 power
no vivified armor.............................................................................no clue about 1100 power 2 pieces, at tier 2
twisted at 13 stacks 2080 power+6046 =8126-7622(relic)= ............+420 power, but doesn´t count to basepower, so relic is better in the end
no legendary companion.................................................................missing 580 power (beside some crit arp recovery)
no legend.mount.............................................................................missing 2000 power
no maxed insigia boni.....................................................................missing 2400 power
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.......................................................................................................missing 11260 power
landing at about 50k power more or less unbuffed, no clue what your BIS friends do all day, but they are not BIS in terms of powersharing.
Now if there was a dc that could actually support the tank in terms of mitigation/protection....THEN it MIGHT make more sense for dps to up the help coming from those departments with some defense/deflect of their own. But healing won´t be thing again...the lifesteal alone makes sure of that not to mention the myriad of other sources.
But for some nonsensical reason you seem to be opposed to the idea of that. Why on earth would anyone be opposed to a dc having CHOICES. Choices in terms of the path you take....mitigation/protection with some buff (virtuous) or buff/debuff/dps (righteous)....and choices in terms of the encounters and dailies you use....mitigation/protection/buff/debuff/dps????
And things like astral shield OBVIOUSLY are outdated now in pve, not to mention the sorry state of a shitload of feats. At the stage the game is now they do not do what they did at an earlier stage of the game so the devs know pretty well a complete overhaul is in order.
It´s just aggravating if people make suggestions that simply don´t make any sense.
There is so much wiggle room between the aa-cheese we had and downgrading the dc to a pure-(de-)buff-bot. It´s not only black and white. How about SYNERGY between tank and dc...choices...so exciting...
You find AS in FBI, mSVA lots of the time, it spends a good ammount of AP, pushing you to at least >50% DR, by that synergizes with KV preventing your tank to be oneshotted , because a cW with 2 k defense is getting hit for 400k lol
Your toon at zero deflect and maybe 4k defense might hit the floor 10 times a run, others are not.
The glasscanon-builds gonna fail, so be creative and adpat or not. GWF can easily tank a big HE on his own btw.
A smart TR can avoid a lot of damage running uphill in FBI.
I am 100% sure there are enough player willing to learn and willing to change their builds. GF/OP/DC, near all other can debuff/ buff, a warlock can, a Hunter can support etc.
There a options beside standing 24/7 behind the boss inside 3 red zones and spamming encounter.
I can't even with some of the people posting on this thread. I seen one guy upset that the desired group play will become 1 Buff, 1 tank, 1 heal, 2 DPS.. Like really? That's what it should be!! Honestly if you haven't been putting groups together trying to cover those party roles then you're gimping your party. Are they that mad that they can't run 3 glass cannons with 2 AA spamming DCs? People are really that bad at this game that they feel they can't play the game without AA? Or that DPS can't take some mitigation in their builds to make it easier for the tanks and healers?
Btw I tested something on my GWF. I switched my DoD rings on my Con Artist to Stien rings. Running the same build I always do and losing about 10-15% of my DPS I was able to rack up 70% DR and 58% Deflection (after bondings proc on a dummy target, this doesn't reflect my Trans Negation or Countless scars or other abilities that put me well over the DR cap) It cost me nothing to do this since I would have trashed or salvaged those Stien rings anyway. You add a GF running KV further reducing my incoming damage by 50% ... Build a group around the premise that everyone needs to balance out their builds to make the job of the tanks easier, you will see that clerics that heal/buff can make up the difference. If you have a Faith Cleric dropping HG and Divine Glows keeping everyone alive and buffed but feel the buffs are lacking then pick up a MoF CW to round out the buff/debuffs. There's so much potential for group composition if people could get over their own needs.
DEVS: GREAT JOB ON THE CHANGES!! I'm already planning out my next DC build around these changes.
Added note: if you're complaining about Everfrost content being too hard without AA and running in groups that remove EFR gear the second they enter the dungeon or raid, or run the bare minimum of 28% with the aid of a 5-10% EFR potion then take your complaints elsewhere. Yeah it's tough at first but once you've done a few runs and have the gear with EFR on it the content is trivial. Our groups are running 50-60% EFR and no AA to save us and we are flying through it still. Stacking shields and Auras is way too easy. Honestly, learn your class, learn other classes, and learn the rotations of your enemies and this game is stupid easy.
You sacrificed recovery for it , right ? Can i ask what do you think is optimal to have if talking about defense and armor pen. ?
The guys i have on my friend list all have around 12 or more k of recovery. One of them has around 8k , he says that is enough but he went for a pure crit build, he has more crit then power.
I am capped right now at 23 to 25 k of power. I am still missing a few enchantments rank 12.
5 of them i think.
The + 5 rings i did not manage to get. But i do have the one you mentioned 1 legendary ring of Hellig.
And i am still using Elemental Dragonflight gear. No vivified cos i did not recieve any yet. And i run FBI a lot.
I see you went for power gear though. Jarl's gaze is amazing for stacking power.
And Dusk + drow as well give the best possible stats.
We have the same underwear and the set though XD lolz
I did switch it with Tiamat set a while ago to see how it will work out. But i am disapointed in it.
I´m sitting on a lot of free respec tokens so I´m not opposed to changing builds at all...and yah...my little tr was never such a squishball as the cw...I might dust him off if I get bored...it never so far occurred to me to stack defense or deflect on a cw though...*shrug* Well, I´ve given some feedback and palavered more than enough in this thread already:P...so I´ll just wait and see now.
What about DC in PvP mode? Faithful's Agent of the Divine?
Pls note how difficult is actuallly to get DCs for svag and with this new changes nobody will want to use a DC o make one.
If there is another thread where they are debating AA nerfs, could you link it? I am not seeing it, and I would love to throw in my 2 cents there too
PS: To be honest, I think some of the changes make DC "too good" all over again, but we will have to see.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Why ? Who asked for these changes, who needs them ? DC was fine. Why you don't focus on other big issues rather than this nonsense.
Removing immortality was the justification for changing Divine Protector (bubble) on the Paladin. However they nerfed this twice and didn't consider increasing the timer after significantly reducing it's effectiveness on the 2nd pass...
Same with Binding Oath, remove the immortality but keep the part that can kill the pally lol.
It was also the justification for removing unlimited temp health gain via unstoppable for the GWF.
I'm not bothered by the reduction in power or even the removal of AP gain from Chains, but I do think they've made a mistake by changing AA's defensive component to 20% temp HP. 25% reduction on incoming damage would've been far more appropriate when you consider the balance between player HP and NPC damage output.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
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Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
During this time, put all feat points into Righteous.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
You don't run a DC so you don't understand the pain involved in running all the solo daily stuff when you have a team support oriented build. You need to appreciate that players are MORE likely to run support builds if they can get through pve zones in a reasonable time.
Have a think about where DC's usually come on the Paingiver chart (say 5 mill compared to your 80-100 mill?) now add 30% to their score. Puts them at about 6.5 mill yes? Are you still feeling threatened?
(note: if you say yes to that, I know a good shrink I can recommend)
I respecced from a DPS build on my cleric when I hit 3k as I wanted to be useful to teams but the increase in clearance times was huge. Not only do you lose 20% of your DPS from feats, you lose a lot of RI etc too.
This is a huge turn-off for anyone trying out the DC as a class and is one of the reasons we don't have enough people running this class.
If you're recommending players switch to healing paths and away from the de/buff then:
(a) you're shooting yourself in the foot
(b) You really don't understand the DC class and should perhaps stick to commenting on areas you know (i.e. the GWF only)
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
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Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
"BIS DPS". So a 4.3k player is saying they get through their dailies in a reasonable time. Astounding. How about the ones that are between 1.5k and 3.5k? Mine is just shy of 3.1k and you know how long it takes me to kill Baphomet with my support build? About 6 or 7 minutes. My 2.5k GWF kills him in about 90 seconds.
"Almost Every". You know, I haven't noticed any BIS DC's on here saying they "do not need 30% more damage" so perhaps this should be considered as 3rd party anecdotal evidence - or "my mate's great and he tells me he doesn't need more dps". Yeah I'll trust you on that one.
Seriously mate, nearly every post you make on these forums is dedicated to reducing the DPS of other classes or saying the GWF need a boost. I'm starting to think you can't help it.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
There are a couple of points you've overlooked:
* they are reducing the power from AA gained by 17% . When you factor in the return value from a companion that's actually a lot higher, more like a 26% drop in power for the DC and as such mitigates the 30% increase in DPS.
* If a support build is struggling to get through their dailies they are more likely to switch to a DPS build. Consequently, increasing their soloing ability will encourage them to stick with the support build.
* All classes that are support oriented have a percentage of players that will try a DPS route regardless. This change is more of an assist to the vast majority that run support than the few that don't. I know a bunch of DCs and only one of them runs a DPS build.
Go through the list of DCs in your guild and make note of those who are specifically DPS oriented and compare it to the number that are built for support. You'll find they are a very small minority.
Edit: do you have a spare character slot? If so, create a DC. Get it to 70 give it a support build. Lend it all your GWFs enchantments then try your hand in SKT. You'll be shocked at how much longer things take to die.
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Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
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Chrion De Armadeon: SW
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Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
http://plays.tv/video/589baef6347e98cd9a/dps-do-dc-in-somi
Sounds about right.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
As I said, I ran a DO DPS build for a few months as it cleared stuff quickly - not as quickly as my CW of equal IL but still very well. I respecced to an AC support build for teams.
This is also the reason I supported an earlier suggestion that the queuing system should allow players to choose their role in a dungeon queue rather than have it decided for them by their class.
Thing is, even with a dps spec, the numbers you were generating in that video weren't very impressive - if you had an AC support build I'd be impressed. My Pally does about double the damage shown there but then again he's nearly 3.7k but in a T2 run I still only do about a 3rd the DPS of an equal IL GWF.
Lets see a video of you in CN, showing the IL of the group and then show us the scores at the end. That's a better test of a dps build.
But of course to quote myself from a previous reply:
"All classes that are support oriented have a percentage of players that will try a DPS route regardless. This change is more of an assist to the vast majority that run support than the few that don't."
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
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Lt. Thackeray: HR
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Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
(msva ACT chart)
Yup, the issue is when the DPS build becomes the most optimal build, and wins against DPS only classes. I'm not saying this change will make that happen. Just saying that caution needs to be taken.
I do want to make a note though. The changes to Lightning Enchantment made the fantasy of an effective DPS DC just that--a fantasy. DCs in my opinion were close-ish in DPS to actual DPS classes. After the changes to Lightning, DC doesn't stand a chance.
EDIT
Oh and I am only playing a DPS cleric because I was too lazy to respec after level 70, and don't like the thought of grinding out SOMI/RD on a support DC. I tried it, it's not fun. Even if they were to increase "support" damage, I would still play the DPS version, simply because it is faster. Why kill stuff slowly, when I can kill it faster?
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
I could theoretically stop using eBTS and use eDL instead for some more damage, or stop using feated Blessing of Battle to grab living fire. Whatever. All that accomplishes is at best I will sacrifice a ton of buffing abilities, make our runs worse, and steal that 3rd paingiver slot (from the "DPS" that REALLY needs to work on his character). I think thats fine.
If ANY dps is worried these changes will make DC's dps machines they are nuts. The damage increase isn't "needed" in the sense that I can complete my dailies just fine (as a BIS DC), but it definitely helps the lower levels