beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
It's not a reasonable suggestion within the context of what was feasible in the time frame Dreadnaught had to work in, that's for darned sure. Boosting the base damage of a power (or a dozen powers) is a minor change, particularly when you don't otherwise touch the mechanics of the power. Rebuilding two entire feat trees is a huge project.
The optimal outcome was his fixing all those bugs.
If it ends up being grossly unbalanced and all the FotM MOARDEEPS players reroll as DCs until it gets nerfed back into line and then rage because they spent THOUSANDS (again), ohwell. Maybe the lesson will sink in eventually. Or they can keep bankrolling MMOs. Whatever.
What you are more likely to end up seeing is that it's a welcome boost across builds whether they strictly needed it or not, but not a threat to the position of any dedicated DPS player that knows what they're doing. And if you have a couple of outlier players who are capable of pushing the limits of how much DPS it's possible to stretch out of this class too, that's not actually a broken thing. Outliers are outliers because they are outside of the norm.
Righteous DCs at lower item levels usually already self-identify as not being able to heal a group that needs a lot of healing. Giving them more damage isn't going to break that either.
This cleric is you right? Two points: that's a DO DPS build and we all know that a cleric can do dps level damage if specced that way. Try doing that as an AC support build then tell me why players should want to stick to supporting other people if they can't get through their solo stuff easily.
This is also the reason I supported an earlier suggestion that the queuing system should allow players to choose their role in a dungeon queue rather than have it decided for them by their class.
I have also wanted this option for quite awhile. It's in other games, and regardless of how viable a class is at said role, there is nothing worse than having a dps spec tank in CN (please read "low item level" into this. Obviously a 4k DPS tank can still tank CN), and that is legal according to the current system. The current system isn't saving anyone from trolls.
Thing is, even with a dps spec, the numbers you were generating in that video weren't very impressive - if you had an AC support build I'd be impressed. My Pally does about double the damage shown there but then again he's nearly 3.7k but in a T2 run I still only do about a 3rd the DPS of an equal IL GWF.
Something to note is that I was 2.8k in the video (it wasn't recent), and I didn't use an optimal rotation. I was more or less goofing off. I never actually landed a fully empowered daunting light. Most of a cleric's damage comes from divinity chains of blazing light spam. (msva ACT chart)
Lets see a video of you in CN, showing the IL of the group and then show us the scores at the end. That's a better test of a dps build.
I can try to remember to record any runs I do in the next few days that have people near my item level in them. I frequently run with people considerably higher than me, and people considerably lower, so it will be hard to get a "fair" run.
But of course to quote myself from a previous reply: "All classes that are support oriented have a percentage of players that will try a DPS route regardless. This change is more of an assist to the vast majority that run support than the few that don't."
Yup, the issue is when the DPS build becomes the most optimal build, and wins against DPS only classes. I'm not saying this change will make that happen. Just saying that caution needs to be taken.
I do want to make a note though. The changes to Lightning Enchantment made the fantasy of an effective DPS DC just that--a fantasy. DCs in my opinion were close-ish in DPS to actual DPS classes. After the changes to Lightning, DC doesn't stand a chance.
EDIT Oh and I am only playing a DPS cleric because I was too lazy to respec after level 70, and don't like the thought of grinding out SOMI/RD on a support DC. I tried it, it's not fun. Even if they were to increase "support" damage, I would still play the DPS version, simply because it is faster. Why kill stuff slowly, when I can kill it faster?
@darthtzarr if you want, message me/add me in game and we can set up some fbi runs or something. I am curious to see how your dps dc compares to other dps in a premade group.
Hello, i don't come to the forum very often because i exalt very easily but being the class i currently main and spend a lot of cash in under rework i thought i should express my opinion. I play a pure power build virtuous with some feats on faithful, divine oracle, as my recovery is very small i use every outer source of reducing damage that i feel good and unlike players with good action point gain i use my dailies in emergency mode or with very hard task at hand, not as a spam. For example my bags are full of overloads for each type of enemy and white dragon, my main companion is a dedicated squire, my main artifact mithic champion's banner, weapon enchantment feytouched r12 i also have a rust monster as passive companion and a chicken and waiting for double refinement to turn my tiamat set into valhalla set, which i hope it crits otherwise i will have to feed a lot of stones to make it legendary again x).
I am not aware of damage debuffs added or multiplied but i do understand what surrounds me and it's common to see people complaining of how slow we are going, people quitting, people using life steal as a mean of staying alive if i go down, but i will not bow to their will, i am a pure healer and don't intend to change, reading through the updates the developer made i like some things i don't mind others and some i don't like:
Things i don't like: Terrifying Insight, i use as my class features foresight and healer's lore (one because of the party protection with the feat, other because i want to heal more), if terrifying insight now grants 20% more damage to allies people running with me will pressure me to use it, not just because it is a damage boost but because it's a big damage boost, healer's lore will not be working if allies are at full health but damage will always count.
Divine Armor, this is a always slot for me, it reduces a lot the damage my allies take, if it the temporary hit points will last only five seconds it will be bad against bosses that deal a lot of damage like druffi.
Things i like:
Increase damage of some powers and lance of faith third attack will help me do high areas content, i use a good dd companion as well but not always easy.
Repurposed soul, i always saw little heals on my log saying repurposed soul but i assumed there was a bigger healing behind, this will increase my healing, i like.
Prophetic action: This will help if there are archers on my team, they always stand back and when i notice they are dead so i can consider use it instead healers lore.
Thank you for your time, i will go back to play now, bye.
This cleric is you right? Two points: that's a DO DPS build and we all know that a cleric can do dps level damage if specced that way. Try doing that as an AC support build then tell me why players should want to stick to supporting other people if they can't get through their solo stuff easily.
This is also the reason I supported an earlier suggestion that the queuing system should allow players to choose their role in a dungeon queue rather than have it decided for them by their class.
I have also wanted this option for quite awhile. It's in other games, and regardless of how viable a class is at said role, there is nothing worse than having a dps spec tank in CN (please read "low item level" into this. Obviously a 4k DPS tank can still tank CN), and that is legal according to the current system. The current system isn't saving anyone from trolls.
Thing is, even with a dps spec, the numbers you were generating in that video weren't very impressive - if you had an AC support build I'd be impressed. My Pally does about double the damage shown there but then again he's nearly 3.7k but in a T2 run I still only do about a 3rd the DPS of an equal IL GWF.
Something to note is that I was 2.8k in the video (it wasn't recent), and I didn't use an optimal rotation. I was more or less goofing off. I never actually landed a fully empowered daunting light. Most of a cleric's damage comes from divinity chains of blazing light spam. (msva ACT chart)
Lets see a video of you in CN, showing the IL of the group and then show us the scores at the end. That's a better test of a dps build.
I can try to remember to record any runs I do in the next few days that have people near my item level in them. I frequently run with people considerably higher than me, and people considerably lower, so it will be hard to get a "fair" run.
But of course to quote myself from a previous reply: "All classes that are support oriented have a percentage of players that will try a DPS route regardless. This change is more of an assist to the vast majority that run support than the few that don't."
Yup, the issue is when the DPS build becomes the most optimal build, and wins against DPS only classes. I'm not saying this change will make that happen. Just saying that caution needs to be taken.
I do want to make a note though. The changes to Lightning Enchantment made the fantasy of an effective DPS DC just that--a fantasy. DCs in my opinion were close-ish in DPS to actual DPS classes. After the changes to Lightning, DC doesn't stand a chance.
EDIT Oh and I am only playing a DPS cleric because I was too lazy to respec after level 70, and don't like the thought of grinding out SOMI/RD on a support DC. I tried it, it's not fun. Even if they were to increase "support" damage, I would still play the DPS version, simply because it is faster. Why kill stuff slowly, when I can kill it faster?
@darthtzarr if you want, message me/add me in game and we can set up some fbi runs or something. I am curious to see how your dps dc compares to other dps in a premade group.
I would likely get dwarfed pretty fast in your 4k runs. I have been in a few a long time ago on my GWF. Pretty sure your CW's stare could do more damage than my GWF's sword. However, I would gladly let you carry me through FBI though for the sake of testing.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited March 2017
Out of curiosity and to spare me 150k ad in a reroll token(just remember never go to driftwood tavern with a bunch of reroll tokens and get drunk, someone may want to take them home) which bosses get bugged by geas?
I dont know man, who gonna benefit from this ?DPS classes gonna die more often, blame DCs, like they always do... And I really want to see how people complete FBI in 30 min with all these lags and no AA.
It is funny. I get kidnapped for MSVA and FBI a lot. Since i guess i am doing half decent job. But people still yell at me when dps classes do not move in MSVA or when the turtle insta kills everyone except a tank with the steam blow. When red circles explode just below the boss. And people start dying like crazy. It is tanks and my job to keep em alive.
After this change it is going to be the tanks job to keep em alive and i am just going to run around like a chicken, debuffing the enemy with bts and glow. Press HG once.. run around like a chicken.. until cooldown .. repeat until you wipe cos your ap gain sucks and AA is nerfed. I am so excited over this i can not tell you.. really.. Yesterday , last MSVA, tank lagged and died three times, in the last round . Thank gods for AA cos i managed to salvage the run with it. What shall we do after this change ? Yell at devs to fix the lag... lol
Well yes everyone is going to die more often, that of course is the expected scenario when you remove an immortality effect that allows players to 100% ignore a hit regardless of how powerful it is.
Removing immortality was the justification for changing Divine Protector (bubble) on the Paladin. However they nerfed this twice and didn't consider increasing the timer after significantly reducing it's effectiveness on the 2nd pass...
Same with Binding Oath, remove the immortality but keep the part that can kill the pally lol.
It was also the justification for removing unlimited temp health gain via unstoppable for the GWF.
I'm not bothered by the reduction in power or even the removal of AP gain from Chains, but I do think they've made a mistake by changing AA's defensive component to 20% temp HP. 25% reduction on incoming damage would've been far more appropriate when you consider the balance between player HP and NPC damage output.
50% reduction on incoming damage would've been far more appropriate when you consider the balance between player HP and NPC damage output.
Out of curiosity and to spare me 150k ad in a reroll token(just remember never go to driftwood tavern with a bunch of reroll tokens and get drunk, someone may want to take them home) which bosses get bugged by geas?
Ahem.. for research perp. i would love to know that too... If anyone knows you can PM me.. in the game. So i can eh... " research it " ...
Why would people think that 30% dmg boost isn't necessary? I've never seen a BiS DC that could do comparable dmg to a BiS GWF and trust me 30% more dmg won't make you top the chart unless you're playing with people with sub-optimal builds.
Make mobs stop one hitting people so clerics can actually do what they are supposed to. Freaking heal. I ll be able to do what i am supposed to as a cleric.
You may think that the primary function of clerics is supposed to be healing, but many DCs, including myself, would disagree with that. It's one of our fuctions, but should not be considered the primary one.
To be fair, I would like to see the Faithful/Virtuous/Righteous trees redesigned in such a way that DCs could choose to be top-notch in on one of the three categories below and decent at at second one (but suck at the third).
Healing and Personal survivability (keep people alive)
Damage mitigation and enemy debuffing (decreased enemy damage)
Party buffing (increased party damage)
Personal DPS
Currently we are close to this, but not quite there. Healing is just one of many things we can do, but quite frankly - I would prefer to leave that to the OPs and just focus on DPS and buffing or debuffing.
Hoping for improvements...
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
edited March 2017
You know the funny thing^^?
"Devoted Clerics primarily focus on healing and buffing allies. Because of the cleric's role as a leader, they possess more healing than any other class. Clerics can also grant stat boosts, temporary hit points, haste, and other buffs to themselves and their allies. Their ability to snare and push opponents gives them the secondary role of controller. They wield holy symbols and are capable of turning the tide of any battle with a single spell. The cleric wears chain armor."
more healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other class
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
I do...with somewhere around 2000 hours of playtime as a DC, and the way I see it, those changes are the best thing to happen to a DC in a long time.
Yes, there are DCs that don't like them - people that think being a DC means just spamming AA and making the party invulnerable, but other DCs generally approve of the changes.
Now, some people may have a harder time in mSVA than before....they may have to learn to play a bit better - improve their gear, strategy or tactics - and stop relying on a broken, overpowered feature to get them through the content.
"Devoted Clerics primarily focus on healing and buffing allies. Because of the cleric's role as a leader, they possess more healing than any other class. Clerics can also grant stat boosts, temporary hit points, haste, and other buffs to themselves and their allies. Their ability to snare and push opponents gives them the secondary role of controller. They wield holy symbols and are capable of turning the tide of any battle with a single spell. The cleric wears chain armor."
more healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other class
Lol yeah they were...
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
AA reduction ? No problem . But this is not just small reduction. It is a nerf. 20 % of max hp is just too little , too late, if you compare how much the bosses hit. I am not a righteous cleric . But i understand my damage has to be sacrificed in order to do more buffs and more heals. And righteous path should sacrifice their heals and buffs to do damage. Isnt that correct ? You are a damage dealer. Also what i am wondering about is : Why did they touch the ap gain ? This is what i do not understand. Ap gain is critical to a DC. No matter what DC you are.
Oh i do have a question. That is just my curiosity. HR has ap gain when switching / using both sets of ( shift ) skills ? Or not ? I am not familiar with this. So that is why i am asking.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
The 30 percent damage increase should be scrapped and the other two trees besides Righteous should get damage boosts in their feats.
While the other trees need a damage boost more than Righteous (in particular for solo play while leveling up), it would be wrong to boost just them, and not what is clearly meant to be the "DPS" tree. Quite plainly, a Righteous DC should do more damage (but heal/mitigate worse) than a Faithful/Virtuous one.
Even with a 30% boost a typical DC will still do less damage than the pure DPS classes, though.
Post edited by adinosii on
Hoping for improvements...
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
"Almost Every". You know, I haven't noticed any BIS DC's on here saying they "do not need 30% more damage" so perhaps this should be considered as 3rd party anecdotal evidence
I'm not a BiS DC - not quite, but I'm over 4K, with 3 R12 bonding runestones, all boons, all epic insignia and so on, so yea...close enough for this discussion.
Do I "need" a 30% DPS boost to some of my powers? For the purpose of just doing my dailies and solo content, no. I don't care if it takes me just 5 seconds instead of 7 to kill the Knight Commander in Dread Spire, for example, or whether I can shorten the fight against Gyrion, Kabal or Nostura slightly. It's just not relevant.
When I'm in a group, the 30% boost does not matter either - in that case I am focusing on buffing and debuffing and my own DPS is irrelevant.
So, here is one "almost-BiS" DC that will say "I don't need that DPS 30% increase to some of my powers".
However....there are many more DCs that really need this.
Any DC that is still leveling up - in particular Faithful and Virtuous ones.
Any level 70 DC with IL under 3200 (or so) will need this for solo content.
Any DPS-focused DC (those who sacrifice buffing/debuffing/healing for personal DPS and want to be considered DPSers.
Oh i do have a question. That is just my curiosity. HR has ap gain when switching / using both sets of ( shift ) skills ? Or not ? I am not familiar with this. So that is why i am asking.
@araneax They do, but their stance switch mechanic is very different from DC empowerment except in the physical button-mashy aspect. Each ranged and melee power is its own move rather than a variant on the same move depending on the mode you cast it in. The HR can execute a series of self-buffs to make a specific attack hit harder, but those come from triggering feats and/or from using a buffing power prior to a strong attack.
They also technically have an independent cooldown on all six encounters, though a Trapper build can optimally cycle through these fluidly without running into cooldowns very often due to reduction feats. An Archer or Combat HR might not even use their stance switching all that much, or only for buffs.
HRs are undeniably capable of filling their AP very rapidly, all the more using the Trapper path. HRs also don't have any daily with the buff capability of AA or HG.
HRs also have dailies that only consume partial AP, which already do have fixed cooldowns so you can't just spam them. It would be interesting to see how this might be adjusted with recovery-based cooldown reduction.
I am really interested in how dailies will continue to function across classes. I wouldn't want to see the ones that are instant-damage sources subject to a cooldown they don't currently have beyond the time it takes to refill your AP, for example.
I play a 3.7 K (only quarrymasters 10) DO DC. (r12 bondings on legendary air archon)
I play buff/debuff dps - transcent plaguefire ench to help the group and not myself. If I want I can do a little more damage.
I also play a thaum CW 3.5K FULL DPS with transcent dread. (2r12 bondings 1r11 - Fire Archon legendary)
It's impossible for the cleric to do as much damage as the CW does. A full specced DPS tripples the damag of my DC easily - in runs like FBI a good HR does 5 times more damage !
If I top the DPS chart with my DC means the group is real weak or wron specced. I play this DC to help also undergeared groups through Dungeons - I can solo Orcus but irt takes forever.
The main reason why a DC can't beat a real specced and good played DPS is: piercing Damage - unresistable damage.
CW: For example: When you have ASSIALANT your next encounter power deals 15% of the targets max HP as Unresistable damage (max 800% of your weapon damage)
A DC does not have something like this and because of that can't deal as much damage ! And what most of you forget - Most powers of a DC have damage over time - if you are in a group where mobs ar dead very fast you have no time - no time means no damage for a DC. So even 30 % more damage will mean nothing. And because terrifying insight will no boost the group and not only the DC means even less chance to deal damage as DC because the numbers of the good DPS are higher mobs are dead faster !
If I run the same Dungeon (etos for example) with the guild one time with my DC (2 DC's) and 1 time with my CW - my CW easily doubles the damage of my DC most times triple or almost triple it. The harder the dungeons the more difference between DPS. In lostmouth the difference is not this high but if mobs live a little longer the high DPS rund away with damage.
I like the 30 % damage increase of the DC because for me it means higher helaing (I heal with criticals - also with mount insignias) - i would like more if the DC could protect more so foresight is increased or something like that because 1 shots can't be healed but the 30 % more Damage will not make a DC a REAL DPS.
If they want to add the cleric to DPS they would give him more unresistable Damage - but they don't so no worrys - DPS - the new cleric will not be top it will only help you clear dungeons faster !
It's impossible for the cleric to do as much damage as the CW does. A full specced DPS tripples the damag of my DC easily - in runs like FBI a good HR does 5 times more damage !
Triple the damage of your DC who is running a buff/debuff rotation, or triples the damage of your DC using a full DPS rotation, while also using your dread enchantment?
The main reason why a DC can't beat a real specced and good played DPS is: piercing Damage - unresistable damage.
CW: For example: When you have ASSIALANT your next encounter power deals 15% of the targets max HP as Unresistable damage (max 800% of your weapon damage)
A DC does not have something like this and because of that can't deal as much damage
Um... yeah because you run around without max armor pen... why?
! And what most of you forget - Most powers of a DC have damage over time - if you are in a group where mobs ar dead very fast you have no time - no time means no damage for a DC. So even 30 % more damage will mean nothing. And because terrifying insight will no boost the group and not only the DC means even less chance to deal damage as DC because the numbers of the good DPS are higher mobs are dead faster !
Actually DoTs are only most of a DC's damage when running a buff/debuff rotation. Chains and Daunting Light dwarf Fire of the Gods and Brand of the Sun very very quickly.
Also, if DoTs themselves were so weak for fast fights, how can SW and Trapper HR deal good damage? It doesn't matter that something is a DoT, it matters how much it does per tick, and sadly none of the DC DoTs do a whole lot of damage by themselves.
Lastly, a DPS DC's dream fight lasts about 8 seconds. It must generally be longer than 5 seconds, but shorter than 25 seconds for a DPS DC to do optimal damage. It needs to last long enough to spam a couple chains, stacking debuffs and power stacks, and optimally drop a daunting light, followed by a couple quick Brand of the Sun tags before enemies die to regenerate Divinity before the next fight. If a fight goes longer than 25 seconds DPS DCs lose a massive buff in Avatar (+40% damage). They care very little whether a fight lasts very long, as long as it is long enough to hit stuff a couple times, and then re-tag enemies for passive divinity gain (the enemies do not have to survive after being tagged).
If I run the same Dungeon (etos for example) with the guild one time with my DC (2 DC's) and 1 time with my CW - my CW easily doubles the damage of my DC most times triple or almost triple it. The harder the dungeons the more difference between DPS. In lostmouth the difference is not this high but if mobs live a little longer the high DPS rund away with damage.
Are you saying your DC is full DPS spec like your CW, has all the DPS companions like your CW, has a dps artifact set (ex. orcus set) like your CW, and has dps weapons like your CW? Did you give your DC your dread for said dungeons? Were you running DPS rotation for said dungeons?
I like the 30 % damage increase of the DC because for me it means higher helaing (I heal with criticals - also with mount insignias) - i would like more if the DC could protect more so foresight is increased or something like that because 1 shots can't be healed but the 30 % more Damage will not make a DC a REAL DPS.
They don't have to be a "REAL DPS" to be overpowered. If they get even remotely close to GWFs in damage, DPS classes become replacable by DCs due to the fact that DCs also increase the entire party damage just by existing. I too like the 30% damage increase. I just don't like the massive nerf that comes after.
If they want to add the cleric to DPS they would give him more unresistable Damage - but they don't so no worrys - DPS - the new cleric will not be top it will only help you clear dungeons faster !
This isn't PVP, DCs can get enough armor pen. Bonding Runestones still exist. I have no doubt in my mind that DCs will make dungeon runs faster.
It's impossible for the cleric to do as much damage as the CW does. A full specced DPS tripples the damag of my DC easily - in runs like FBI a good HR does 5 times more damage !
Triple the damage of your DC who is running a buff/debuff rotation, or triples the damage of your DC using a full DPS rotation, while also using your dread enchantment?
The main reason why a DC can't beat a real specced and good played DPS is: piercing Damage - unresistable damage.
CW: For example: When you have ASSIALANT your next encounter power deals 15% of the targets max HP as Unresistable damage (max 800% of your weapon damage)
A DC does not have something like this and because of that can't deal as much damage
Um... yeah because you run around without max armor pen... why?
! And what most of you forget - Most powers of a DC have damage over time - if you are in a group where mobs ar dead very fast you have no time - no time means no damage for a DC. So even 30 % more damage will mean nothing. And because terrifying insight will no boost the group and not only the DC means even less chance to deal damage as DC because the numbers of the good DPS are higher mobs are dead faster !
Actually DoTs are only most of a DC's damage when running a buff/debuff rotation. Chains and Daunting Light dwarf Fire of the Gods and Brand of the Sun very very quickly.
Also, if DoTs themselves were so weak for fast fights, how can SW and Trapper HR deal good damage? It doesn't matter that something is a DoT, it matters how much it does per tick, and sadly none of the DC DoTs do a whole lot of damage by themselves.
Lastly, a DPS DC's dream fight lasts about 8 seconds. It must generally be longer than 5 seconds, but shorter than 25 seconds for a DPS DC to do optimal damage. It needs to last long enough to spam a couple chains, stacking debuffs and power stacks, and optimally drop a daunting light, followed by a couple quick Brand of the Sun tags before enemies die to regenerate Divinity before the next fight. If a fight goes longer than 25 seconds DPS DCs lose a massive buff in Avatar (+40% damage). They care very little whether a fight lasts very long, as long as it is long enough to hit stuff a couple times, and then re-tag enemies for passive divinity gain (the enemies do not have to survive after being tagged).
If I run the same Dungeon (etos for example) with the guild one time with my DC (2 DC's) and 1 time with my CW - my CW easily doubles the damage of my DC most times triple or almost triple it. The harder the dungeons the more difference between DPS. In lostmouth the difference is not this high but if mobs live a little longer the high DPS rund away with damage.
Are you saying your DC is full DPS spec like your CW, has all the DPS companions like your CW, has a dps artifact set (ex. orcus set) like your CW, and has dps weapons like your CW? Did you give your DC your dread for said dungeons? Were you running DPS rotation for said dungeons?
I like the 30 % damage increase of the DC because for me it means higher helaing (I heal with criticals - also with mount insignias) - i would like more if the DC could protect more so foresight is increased or something like that because 1 shots can't be healed but the 30 % more Damage will not make a DC a REAL DPS.
They don't have to be a "REAL DPS" to be overpowered. If they get even remotely close to GWFs in damage, DPS classes become replacable by DCs due to the fact that DCs also increase the entire party damage just by existing. I too like the 30% damage increase. I just don't like the massive nerf that comes after.
If they want to add the cleric to DPS they would give him more unresistable Damage - but they don't so no worrys - DPS - the new cleric will not be top it will only help you clear dungeons faster !
This isn't PVP, DCs can get enough armor pen. Bonding Runestones still exist. I have no doubt in my mind that DCs will make dungeon runs faster.
Not the guy you're conversing with but honestly, NO dc's (none - zero - nada) are outdps'ing, or getting close to outdps'ing, any DPS class. That is, assuming these conditions:
a) They both know their class and play their class well b) They both are of similar ilvl c) No anomalies (ie. the dps dies/afk's the whole dungeon)
As a DC, I've been top paingiver many many many times. But in every one of those circumstances, the above conditions occurred. If I can out dps you, there were reasons beyond "DC's do good DPS".
And yes, this is running as an "almost" fully "dps" DC. The one exception was no orcus set. But full companions (air, fire, siege, earth active, con artist summoned). While I concede the orcus set would be better, it also lowers our stats (wisdom particularly) so, while still a boost, isnt a huge loss like it may be on others. I did this from around 3000ish to 4000ish dc (4376 now but am "buff" now; though the distinction doesnt mean much truly). Running holy fervor (for AP gain) and annointed action (as AC) or holy fervor and terrifying insight (as DO) with flame strike as my daily. I was at over 100% crit (but only thanks to sudden ring). Without sudden I believe I sat at 80%
You just dont come close. Weapon damage is too low, daunting lights circle too small and needs to be aimed (wasting time) or missed (wasting dps). Even when everything does work (say the turtle in FBI which is impossible to miss basically), you still have the divinity build up which is several seconds of doing VERY little damage. The mechanics of the dc class just don't allow us to keep up in damage.
It just isnt close. The 30% damage increase will narrow the gap, but it still isn't close. AND to top it all off, doing all this is hindering your group (if you're the sole DC) or forcing them to find another DC to buff (which isn't the easiest thing in the world). You may end up being right that it will have to be nerfed sometime in the future, but I don't think so. I mean, we actually have a class that can tank all content, buff like a beast, and top the paingiver all at the same time and thats not a problem? But a DC who forgoes everything they are intended to do may be able to move from 5th on paingiver to 3/4th is going to be a problem? Cmon.....
"GF is balanced and can never reach Paingiver unless the team is bad, they also can't tank and DPS at the same time."-DPS GFs. They use your same lines. Righteous does not need more damage, bottom line. DC and GF are right now DO-IT-ALL classes.
Well I agree with that quote and same goes to DCs. Other DPS classes will still be able to outdps DCs by a large margin easily, especially how terrifying insight now buffs the entire team as well. And most people likely still would't invite a DC as a dedicated DPS.
"GF is balanced and can never reach Paingiver unless the team is bad, they also can't tank and DPS at the same time."-DPS GFs. They use your same lines. Righteous does not need more damage, bottom line. DC and GF are right now DO-IT-ALL classes.
Well I agree with that quote and same goes to DCs. Other DPS classes will still be able to outdps DCs by a large margin easily, especially how terrifying insight now buffs the entire team as well. And most people likely still would't invite a DC as a dedicated DPS.
Well I mean, I shouldn't have said that because it was an unneeded exaggeration. But gf's most certainly can tank as conq spec AND put up respectable damage while doing it. They wont top pain giver, but likely halfish the damage that a true DPS can do which is more than I can do as a full dps (not buffing). And through ITF and mark they still maintain solid buffs (and potentially crushing pin if feated).
If I go full DPS, I will still provide some debuffs (condemning gaze, bear your sins) but wouldn't be using my main buffs, nor healing. And my dps would still be significantly lower than the conq gf.
You are right that they could use my same line, but a) I don't dps as well as a dps gf, b) I wouldn't buff as well as a gf (if both he and I were going dps - though I suppose it's fair that he could slot something other than ITF as I do with bts; just most dont) and he is still tanking. That's 3 things also (tank, dmg, buffs) that all suffer a little if he does his primary role (but without the need to change gear/respect/etc). My 3 things are heal, buff, dmg. If I go DPS, I don't heal, buff only a little, and do ok dmg (and need new gear/respec). If I spec to heals, I heal great, buff good, REALLY bad dmg (and need respec, though not new gear). If I spec to buff, I do very little heals, buff amazing, and do poor dmg (and need respec/new gear).
The one caveat is perhaps that maybe the dps/tank/buff gf can only do that because of broken AA. Once it's fixed, reality may hit.
In any case, I regret bringing the gf into this discussion; thats not the point of this post. My point I guess is that DC's damage is poor, in fact, I'd say we are arguably the worst "dps" in the game alongside OP tanks. Which is fine; that's fair considering the buffs that we can bring to the group. But the 30% damage boost wont change that. It narrows the field a little, but we still will blow in relation to dps classes.
I do agree though that the homogenizing of classes is a problem. I (personally) don't like how many heal abilities (through lifesteal, mount insignia bonuses, potions, etc) that dps classes have. It completely removed the need for the basic role of my class. It stepped on my toes and I don't like it; and now we are stepping on yours and you don't like it. To that, I think we can agree but that's a larger problem I think and basically that's a discussion for a different game at this point.
As requests here is a CN run on my DPS DC with some people near my item level, although they have perfect bondings
Normally, I would run a buff setup in this dungeon, since obviously giving everyone +30% more damage (or more) is more than I can dish out, but that wasn't the point of the run. We were all competing for top DPS (except the tank) just for the sake of doing so. I would only run this rotation in a party that already had a DC.
This however, is a normal every-day run for me as far as DPS goes. I messed up a ton this run, but I guess that is also normal. I forgot to switch to single target for boss fights, but again also normal
I didn't run ACT for this run because I forgot, so sorry about that. You will have to just look at the all-seeing paingiver chart.
@darthzarr now i understand. U ran with a far from endgame group with ppl playing far from optimal. So while your dmg is quite good in comparison that says nothing. Hit me up in game if you want i can show u some dps chars who know what they are doing.
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The optimal outcome was his fixing all those bugs.
If it ends up being grossly unbalanced and all the FotM MOARDEEPS players reroll as DCs until it gets nerfed back into line and then rage because they spent THOUSANDS (again), ohwell. Maybe the lesson will sink in eventually. Or they can keep bankrolling MMOs. Whatever.
What you are more likely to end up seeing is that it's a welcome boost across builds whether they strictly needed it or not, but not a threat to the position of any dedicated DPS player that knows what they're doing. And if you have a couple of outlier players who are capable of pushing the limits of how much DPS it's possible to stretch out of this class too, that's not actually a broken thing. Outliers are outliers because they are outside of the norm.
Righteous DCs at lower item levels usually already self-identify as not being able to heal a group that needs a lot of healing. Giving them more damage isn't going to break that either.
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I play a pure power build virtuous with some feats on faithful, divine oracle, as my recovery is very small i use every outer source of reducing damage that i feel good and unlike players with good action point gain i use my dailies in emergency mode or with very hard task at hand, not as a spam. For example my bags are full of overloads for each type of enemy and white dragon, my main companion is a dedicated squire, my main artifact mithic champion's banner, weapon enchantment feytouched r12 i also have a rust monster as passive companion and a chicken and waiting for double refinement to turn my tiamat set into valhalla set, which i hope it crits otherwise i will have to feed a lot of stones to make it legendary again x).
I am not aware of damage debuffs added or multiplied but i do understand what surrounds me and it's common to see people complaining of how slow we are going, people quitting, people using life steal as a mean of staying alive if i go down, but i will not bow to their will, i am a pure healer and don't intend to change, reading through the updates the developer made i like some things i don't mind others and some i don't like:
Things i don't like:
Terrifying Insight, i use as my class features foresight and healer's lore (one because of the party protection with the feat, other because i want to heal more), if terrifying insight now grants 20% more damage to allies people running with me will pressure me to use it, not just because it is a damage boost but because it's a big damage boost, healer's lore will not be working if allies are at full health but damage will always count.
Divine Armor, this is a always slot for me, it reduces a lot the damage my allies take, if it the temporary hit points will last only five seconds it will be bad against bosses that deal a lot of damage like druffi.
Things i like:
Increase damage of some powers and lance of faith third attack will help me do high areas content, i use a good dd companion as well but not always easy.
Repurposed soul, i always saw little heals on my log saying repurposed soul but i assumed there was a bigger healing behind, this will increase my healing, i like.
Prophetic action: This will help if there are archers on my team, they always stand back and when i notice they are dead so i can consider use it instead healers lore.
Thank you for your time, i will go back to play now, bye.
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But people still yell at me when dps classes do not move in MSVA or when the turtle insta kills everyone except a tank with the steam blow. When red circles explode just below the boss. And people start dying like crazy. It is tanks and my job to keep em alive.
After this change it is going to be the tanks job to keep em alive and i am just going to run around like a chicken, debuffing the enemy with bts and glow. Press HG once.. run around like a chicken.. until cooldown .. repeat until you wipe cos your ap gain sucks and AA is nerfed. I am so excited over this i can not tell you.. really..
Yesterday , last MSVA, tank lagged and died three times, in the last round . Thank gods for AA cos i managed to salvage the run with it. What shall we do after this change ? Yell at devs to fix the lag... lol 50% reduction on incoming damage would've been far more appropriate when you consider the balance between player HP and NPC damage output.
Psttt i fixed it for you
If anyone knows you can PM me.. in the game. So i can eh... " research it " ...
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
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To be fair, I would like to see the Faithful/Virtuous/Righteous trees redesigned in such a way that DCs could choose to be top-notch in on one of the three categories below and decent at at second one (but suck at the third).
- Healing and Personal survivability (keep people alive)
- Damage mitigation and enemy debuffing (decreased enemy damage)
- Party buffing (increased party damage)
- Personal DPS
Currently we are close to this, but not quite there. Healing is just one of many things we can do, but quite frankly - I would prefer to leave that to the OPs and just focus on DPS and buffing or debuffing."Devoted Clerics primarily focus on healing and buffing allies. Because of the cleric's role as a leader, they possess more healing than any other class. Clerics can also grant stat boosts, temporary hit points, haste, and other buffs to themselves and their allies. Their ability to snare and push opponents gives them the secondary role of controller. They wield holy symbols and are capable of turning the tide of any battle with a single spell. The cleric wears chain armor."
more healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other classmore healing than any other class
I do...with somewhere around 2000 hours of playtime as a DC, and the way I see it, those changes are the best thing to happen to a DC in a long time.
Yes, there are DCs that don't like them - people that think being a DC means just spamming AA and making the party invulnerable, but other DCs generally approve of the changes.
Now, some people may have a harder time in mSVA than before....they may have to learn to play a bit better - improve their gear, strategy or tactics - and stop relying on a broken, overpowered feature to get them through the content.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Leveling up a DC (in particular a Virtuous/Faithful one) was a slow and painful process.
Many powers/feats were broken, buggy or just so bad nobody ever used them.
The AA power had become way too powerful, and was used to trivialize content, like the OP "permabubble" some time ago.
One of the paragons (AC) had become too superior to the other (DO). Some balance was needed, to give DCs more than one viable build.
Those changes do not fix all DC issues, but they are a good step in the right direction.
You where faster then i was :P lol
AA reduction ? No problem . But this is not just small reduction. It is a nerf. 20 % of max hp is just too little , too late, if you compare how much the bosses hit. I am not a righteous cleric . But i understand my damage has to be sacrificed in order to do more buffs and more heals. And righteous path should sacrifice their heals and buffs to do damage. Isnt that correct ? You are a damage dealer. Also what i am wondering about is :
Why did they touch the ap gain ? This is what i do not understand.
Ap gain is critical to a DC. No matter what DC you are.
Oh i do have a question. That is just my curiosity.
HR has ap gain when switching / using both sets of ( shift ) skills ? Or not ?
I am not familiar with this. So that is why i am asking.
Even with a 30% boost a typical DC will still do less damage than the pure DPS classes, though.
Do I "need" a 30% DPS boost to some of my powers? For the purpose of just doing my dailies and solo content, no. I don't care if it takes me just 5 seconds instead of 7 to kill the Knight Commander in Dread Spire, for example, or whether I can shorten the fight against Gyrion, Kabal or Nostura slightly. It's just not relevant.
When I'm in a group, the 30% boost does not matter either - in that case I am focusing on buffing and debuffing and my own DPS is irrelevant.
So, here is one "almost-BiS" DC that will say "I don't need that DPS 30% increase to some of my powers".
However....there are many more DCs that really need this.
- Any DC that is still leveling up - in particular Faithful and Virtuous ones.
- Any level 70 DC with IL under 3200 (or so) will need this for solo content.
- Any DPS-focused DC (those who sacrifice buffing/debuffing/healing for personal DPS and want to be considered DPSers.
- Any DC who does PvP.
I'm just not one of those.They do, but their stance switch mechanic is very different from DC empowerment except in the physical button-mashy aspect. Each ranged and melee power is its own move rather than a variant on the same move depending on the mode you cast it in. The HR can execute a series of self-buffs to make a specific attack hit harder, but those come from triggering feats and/or from using a buffing power prior to a strong attack.
They also technically have an independent cooldown on all six encounters, though a Trapper build can optimally cycle through these fluidly without running into cooldowns very often due to reduction feats. An Archer or Combat HR might not even use their stance switching all that much, or only for buffs.
HRs are undeniably capable of filling their AP very rapidly, all the more using the Trapper path. HRs also don't have any daily with the buff capability of AA or HG.
HRs also have dailies that only consume partial AP, which already do have fixed cooldowns so you can't just spam them. It would be interesting to see how this might be adjusted with recovery-based cooldown reduction.
I am really interested in how dailies will continue to function across classes. I wouldn't want to see the ones that are instant-damage sources subject to a cooldown they don't currently have beyond the time it takes to refill your AP, for example.
Neverwinter Census 2017
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I play buff/debuff dps - transcent plaguefire ench to help the group and not myself.
If I want I can do a little more damage.
I also play a thaum CW 3.5K FULL DPS with transcent dread. (2r12 bondings 1r11 - Fire Archon legendary)
It's impossible for the cleric to do as much damage as the CW does. A full specced DPS tripples the damag of my DC easily - in runs like FBI a good HR does 5 times more damage !
If I top the DPS chart with my DC means the group is real weak or wron specced. I play this DC to help also undergeared groups through Dungeons - I can solo Orcus but irt takes forever.
The main reason why a DC can't beat a real specced and good played DPS is: piercing Damage - unresistable damage.
CW: For example: When you have ASSIALANT your next encounter power deals 15% of the targets max HP as Unresistable damage (max 800% of your weapon damage)
A DC does not have something like this and because of that can't deal as much damage ! And what most of you forget - Most powers of a DC have damage over time - if you are in a group where mobs ar dead very fast you have no time - no time means no damage for a DC. So even 30 % more damage will mean nothing. And because terrifying insight will no boost the group and not only the DC means even less chance to deal damage as DC because the numbers of the good DPS are higher mobs are dead faster !
If I run the same Dungeon (etos for example) with the guild one time with my DC (2 DC's) and 1 time with my CW - my CW easily doubles the damage of my DC most times triple or almost triple it. The harder the dungeons the more difference between DPS. In lostmouth the difference is not this high but if mobs live a little longer the high DPS rund away with damage.
I like the 30 % damage increase of the DC because for me it means higher helaing (I heal with criticals - also with mount insignias) - i would like more if the DC could protect more so foresight is increased or something like that because 1 shots can't be healed but the 30 % more Damage will not make a DC a REAL DPS.
If they want to add the cleric to DPS they would give him more unresistable Damage - but they don't so no worrys - DPS - the new cleric will not be top it will only help you clear dungeons faster !
Also, if DoTs themselves were so weak for fast fights, how can SW and Trapper HR deal good damage? It doesn't matter that something is a DoT, it matters how much it does per tick, and sadly none of the DC DoTs do a whole lot of damage by themselves.
Lastly, a DPS DC's dream fight lasts about 8 seconds. It must generally be longer than 5 seconds, but shorter than 25 seconds for a DPS DC to do optimal damage. It needs to last long enough to spam a couple chains, stacking debuffs and power stacks, and optimally drop a daunting light, followed by a couple quick Brand of the Sun tags before enemies die to regenerate Divinity before the next fight. If a fight goes longer than 25 seconds DPS DCs lose a massive buff in Avatar (+40% damage). They care very little whether a fight lasts very long, as long as it is long enough to hit stuff a couple times, and then re-tag enemies for passive divinity gain (the enemies do not have to survive after being tagged).
Are you saying your DC is full DPS spec like your CW, has all the DPS companions like your CW, has a dps artifact set (ex. orcus set) like your CW, and has dps weapons like your CW? Did you give your DC your dread for said dungeons? Were you running DPS rotation for said dungeons? They don't have to be a "REAL DPS" to be overpowered. If they get even remotely close to GWFs in damage, DPS classes become replacable by DCs due to the fact that DCs also increase the entire party damage just by existing. I too like the 30% damage increase. I just don't like the massive nerf that comes after. This isn't PVP, DCs can get enough armor pen. Bonding Runestones still exist. I have no doubt in my mind that DCs will make dungeon runs faster.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
a) They both know their class and play their class well
b) They both are of similar ilvl
c) No anomalies (ie. the dps dies/afk's the whole dungeon)
As a DC, I've been top paingiver many many many times. But in every one of those circumstances, the above conditions occurred. If I can out dps you, there were reasons beyond "DC's do good DPS".
And yes, this is running as an "almost" fully "dps" DC. The one exception was no orcus set. But full companions (air, fire, siege, earth active, con artist summoned). While I concede the orcus set would be better, it also lowers our stats (wisdom particularly) so, while still a boost, isnt a huge loss like it may be on others. I did this from around 3000ish to 4000ish dc (4376 now but am "buff" now; though the distinction doesnt mean much truly). Running holy fervor (for AP gain) and annointed action (as AC) or holy fervor and terrifying insight (as DO) with flame strike as my daily. I was at over 100% crit (but only thanks to sudden ring). Without sudden I believe I sat at 80%
You just dont come close. Weapon damage is too low, daunting lights circle too small and needs to be aimed (wasting time) or missed (wasting dps). Even when everything does work (say the turtle in FBI which is impossible to miss basically), you still have the divinity build up which is several seconds of doing VERY little damage. The mechanics of the dc class just don't allow us to keep up in damage.
It just isnt close. The 30% damage increase will narrow the gap, but it still isn't close. AND to top it all off, doing all this is hindering your group (if you're the sole DC) or forcing them to find another DC to buff (which isn't the easiest thing in the world). You may end up being right that it will have to be nerfed sometime in the future, but I don't think so. I mean, we actually have a class that can tank all content, buff like a beast, and top the paingiver all at the same time and thats not a problem? But a DC who forgoes everything they are intended to do may be able to move from 5th on paingiver to 3/4th is going to be a problem? Cmon.....
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If I go full DPS, I will still provide some debuffs (condemning gaze, bear your sins) but wouldn't be using my main buffs, nor healing. And my dps would still be significantly lower than the conq gf.
You are right that they could use my same line, but a) I don't dps as well as a dps gf, b) I wouldn't buff as well as a gf (if both he and I were going dps - though I suppose it's fair that he could slot something other than ITF as I do with bts; just most dont) and he is still tanking. That's 3 things also (tank, dmg, buffs) that all suffer a little if he does his primary role (but without the need to change gear/respect/etc). My 3 things are heal, buff, dmg. If I go DPS, I don't heal, buff only a little, and do ok dmg (and need new gear/respec). If I spec to heals, I heal great, buff good, REALLY bad dmg (and need respec, though not new gear). If I spec to buff, I do very little heals, buff amazing, and do poor dmg (and need respec/new gear).
The one caveat is perhaps that maybe the dps/tank/buff gf can only do that because of broken AA. Once it's fixed, reality may hit.
In any case, I regret bringing the gf into this discussion; thats not the point of this post. My point I guess is that DC's damage is poor, in fact, I'd say we are arguably the worst "dps" in the game alongside OP tanks. Which is fine; that's fair considering the buffs that we can bring to the group. But the 30% damage boost wont change that. It narrows the field a little, but we still will blow in relation to dps classes.
I do agree though that the homogenizing of classes is a problem. I (personally) don't like how many heal abilities (through lifesteal, mount insignia bonuses, potions, etc) that dps classes have. It completely removed the need for the basic role of my class. It stepped on my toes and I don't like it; and now we are stepping on yours and you don't like it. To that, I think we can agree but that's a larger problem I think and basically that's a discussion for a different game at this point.
Normally, I would run a buff setup in this dungeon, since obviously giving everyone +30% more damage (or more) is more than I can dish out, but that wasn't the point of the run. We were all competing for top DPS (except the tank) just for the sake of doing so. I would only run this rotation in a party that already had a DC.
This however, is a normal every-day run for me as far as DPS goes. I messed up a ton this run, but I guess that is also normal. I forgot to switch to single target for boss fights, but again also normal
I didn't run ACT for this run because I forgot, so sorry about that. You will have to just look at the all-seeing paingiver chart.
http://plays.tv/video/58b7a04f64783105b9/benchmark-cn-run-with-a-dps-do-dc
I think I cut off the only time I look at Winter's gear at the end, so sorry about that. I can probably upload that too if you care enough.
Needless to say, giving me ~20% increased dps would be broken in my own little world where runs like this exist.
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