MOD 10 DC changes

mrtehpuppy

Doesn't count. Don't use it

dupeks

bvira said:

I don't see it as a nerf, power buff now is simply too strong, and it trivializes the game profoundly.
Bosses now die as quickly as trash, it just isn't right.

That's kind of a definition of a nerf. Not all nerfs are bad, and I agree that the power sharing needed fixing.

That said, the choices about which stuff counts are pretty silly. Like not counting twisted wep set??? Or the fact that the new Mod 10 insignia bonuses work, but the old insignia bonus (protector's camaraderie) doesn't??? All of this might change still so I guess we'll see...

mrtehpuppy said:

Doesn't count. Don't use it

Unfortunately, they don't count.

For a brief moment we had hope that they would, and we imagined a new meta where Augments and Bondings could coexist in harmony, both viable. Then we awoke to the harsh reality: Augments get no love, Bondings still better bro.

putzboy78

It's both. Removing the non-base power is a nerf. Stopping the looping is a fix, obviously a looping effect that builds greater power over time is not WAI.

I think the augments are WAI, at lower ilvls/budget builds augments are still king. Max/Min then look at bonding. It's basically a graduation.

thefabricant

My guess is over all the DO will be better than the AC in your BiS clear speed party, because for boss fights you also have PoD in addition to HG, which will tip things in the DOs favour. I haven't done any testing yet, but its on my list of things to do. Also, @lerapiso818 would you mind uploading that spreadsheet? I would like to add it to some of my own.

mrtehpuppy

It would almost have to shift over to DO being the better choice. Sure even with a Power share nerf/fix the AC can still provide a big chunk of Power but at BiS, with these upcoming power changes, there's no way the extra Power gains will be more beneficial than the extra 25ish% debuff from PoD. With the ITF change incoming AShield is going to get shelved for BiS group runs which frees up an encounter slot. AC would be wise to run FF and stack empowered casts which means you're looking at +45% DPS from BtS and FF buffs plus the 10-75% power shared vs the DO's 30% BtS 25ish% debuff (apologies I really can't remember the exact debuff magnitude of an empowered PoD at the moment) and 10% power share.

The only way to avoid this would be to buff up the AC somewhere else. Maybe add a group buff effect to exaltation that's stronger than FF? But that would trivialize FF. IDK, spose I can do little else than rant and rave on the forums and speculate until they announce a specific direction for us DCs. Unrelated to original topic but, here's to hoping they cut down the cast times on BoB and PoD..

putzboy78

AC is still king for PVP, so its not like the tree doesn't have a niche

mrtehpuppy

How do you figure AC is stronger in PvP? Admitedly we're speaking across platforms here as I'm just a console pleb (come here to the PC DC class sub for the intelligent conversations) so maybe I'm missing some minor shifts in how PC PvPs vs X1. But the way I see it is for PvP you can fill one of two rolls, full blown healer, or straight DPS. For a full blown healer I personally feel like both paragons are equal as the best PvP healing choice is obviously Faithful path. AC gets Anointed Armor for a bit of extra tankiness but DO gets Foresight and Prophetic Action so IMO those about equal out. For the DPS route if you chose to go there, for PvP specifically DO is the winner hands down thanks to BotS and Terrifying Insight (although lets be real, with the ingisgnia bonus healing, DPS DCs in PvP aren't really a thing anymore as we don't have enough spike damage).

I'm not saying you're wrong. Just explaining the way I see it. I'm very curious as to your reasoning behind AC being a better PvP choice as I used to really like PvP but recently have all but stopped playing it just because it's not been very fun for me no matter what I tried to do.

putzboy78

Firstly a DPS DC does not perform well in end game PVP. Reasons being is that PVP is mostly about control and burst damage. DC control abilities are limited and the burst damage is not that great as we are based more around DOT stacking. On PC you will not find a DC in the top 200 ranks based on kills. DPS DC will perform better in lower ilvls and or non-end game pvp.

On PC the immortal healer DC is the meta.

Secondly AC is the more defensive oriented than DO which is why it performs well in PVP where we are not trying to kill, instead we try to hold a node and survive the constant onstlaught of CC that comes our way.

The CD on Prophetic Action makes it about useless in PVP and any skilled dps knows to soften us up a bit before going in with the nukes.

The end result is AC survivability & clutch saves out performs the added DPS from DO in the PVP arena.

crizpynutz

This makes me sad, I've loved being AC and I hope it can be salvaged and DO doesn't run too far ahead. I'll adjust either way but I have enjoyed the play style of AC.

thefabricant

AC might still be meta in mod 10 due to the plain stupid everfrost mechanic:

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1218608/everfrost-damage

It hits hard....VERY hard. Someone should check if Empowered AS+AA mitigates it.

mrtehpuppy

putzboy78 said:

Firstly a DPS DC does not perform well in end game PVP. Reasons being is that PVP is mostly about control and burst damage. DC control abilities are limited and the burst damage is not that great as we are based more around DOT stacking. On PC you will not find a DC in the top 200 ranks based on kills. DPS DC will perform better in lower ilvls and or non-end game pvp.

I agree and understand that but was just stating for the sake of thoroughness, if one REALLY wanted to, you could go DPS DC. In the current overhealing meta you wouldn't do very good as a DPS DC i fully agree.

putzboy78 said:

Secondly AC is the more defensive oriented than DO which is why it performs well in PVP where we are not trying to kill, instead we try to hold a node and survive the constant onstlaught of CC that comes our way.

The CD on Prophetic Action makes it about useless in PVP and any skilled dps knows to soften us up a bit before going in with the nukes.

This is where I'm getting confused I think. How is AC any tankier than DO? Personal defense wise sure the AC will lead with an extra 3% DR and 5-8% deflect (depending on DO OH feat choice) but the DO will lead with an extra 5% DR for each group member as well as a potential to give an extra 3% deflect to each group member (or, trade that extra 3% deflect for an extra +25% personal control resist) Also, I wasn't mentioning Prophetic Action because of it's ability to completely negate one attack every 30 seconds, i was mentioning it because of the aforementioned +25% control resist if feated in the OH for it. To me, none of those factors favor one paragon over the other by a large enough margin to decisively say one paragon is better than the other at PvP.

putzboy78 said:

The end result is AC survivability & clutch saves out performs the added DPS from DO in the PVP arena.

The AC and the DOs' ability to clutch heal is literally the exact same. Neither paragon has an advantage over the other in it's ability to provide clutch healing. Which leaves the call coming down to the AC having a tiny bit extra personal tankiness but less group tankiness. I don't see the two paragons' differences being enough to justify one being better than the other for PvP. Unless I'm missing something here and if I am please tell me.

putzboy78

thefabricant said:

AC might still be meta in mod 10 due to the plain stupid everfrost mechanic:

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1218608/everfrost-damage

It hits hard....VERY hard. Someone should check if Empowered AS+AA mitigates it.

While I didn't measure it or anything. I can report I ran the new zone in High Prophet without issue with the exception of the new HEs. Those kicked my HAMSTER.

dupeks

thefabricant said:

AC might still be meta in mod 10 due to the plain stupid everfrost mechanic:

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1218608/everfrost-damage

It hits hard....VERY hard. Someone should check if Empowered AS+AA mitigates it.

I confirmed it hits VERY hard. And it doesn't look like empowered AS can help either:

[9:20] [Combat (Self)] Your Astral Shield absorbs 117 (36) damage from Raider's Swing.
[9:20] [Combat (Self)] Your Astral Shield absorbs 11625 (3519) damage from Raider's Swing.
[9:20] [Combat (Self)] Raider gives 0 (11742) Physical Damage to you with Swing.
[9:20] [Combat (Self)] Raider deals 5871 Everfrost Damage to you with Everfrost.

[9:20] [Combat (Self)] Your Astral Shield absorbs 28 (8) damage from Huntsman's Throwing Axe.
[9:20] [Combat (Self)] Your Astral Shield absorbs 2737 (829) damage from Huntsman's Throwing Axe.
[9:20] [Combat (Self)] Huntsman gives 0 (2765) Physical Damage to you with Throwing Axe.
[9:20] [Combat (Self)] Huntsman deals 1382 Everfrost Damage to you with Everfrost.

Or even AA:

[9:24] [Combat (Self)] Your Anointed Army absorbs 0 damage from Winter Wolf's Drag.
[9:24] [Combat (Self)] Your Anointed Army absorbs 5243 damage from Winter Wolf's Drag.
[9:24] [Combat (Self)] Winter Wolf deals 583 (7739) Physical Damage to you with Drag.
[9:24] [Combat (Self)] Winter Wolf deals 3870 Everfrost Damage to you with Everfrost.

[9:27] [Combat (Self)] Your Anointed Army absorbs 0 damage from Polar Bear's Maul.
[9:27] [Combat (Self)] Your Anointed Army absorbs 5021 damage from Polar Bear's Maul.
[9:27] [Combat (Self)] Polar Bear deals 558 (7939) Physical Damage to you with Maul.
[9:27] [Combat (Self)] Your Shield of the Divine gives 4445 (3356) Hit Points to you.
[9:27] [Combat (Self)] Polar Bear deals 3970 Everfrost Damage to you with Everfrost.

Subjectively it doesn't feel like it's reducing the Everfrost, the floaters still appear to be in the same general range, and combat log is not looking good. At least they found a way to make healing relevant again?

I am hoping I'm tragically confused and incorrect about the above. Not that unlikely, all things considered hehe.

putzboy78

mrtehpuppy said:

The AC and the DOs' ability to clutch heal is literally the exact same. Neither paragon has an advantage over the other in it's ability to provide clutch healing. Which leaves the call coming down to the AC having a tiny bit extra personal tankiness but less group tankiness. I don't see the two paragons' differences being enough to justify one being better than the other for PvP. Unless I'm missing something here and if I am please tell me.

Clutch Heal and clutch save is not the same thing. With AA you get a form of damage immunity which far out performs increased DR in an environment where everyone has Armor Pen stacked to the moon. So don't think about it in terms of damage resistance because a high AP gainer is spamming AA.

Its also why deflect out performs defense in high end PVP. Those guys have the armor pen to negate your DR. You can't negate deflect.

mrtehpuppy

putzboy78 said:

Clutch Heal and clutch save is not the same thing. With AA you get a form of damage immunity which far out performs increased DR in an environment where everyone has Armor Pen stacked to the moon. So don't think about it in terms of damage resistance because a high AP gainer is spamming AA.

Its also why deflect out performs defense in high end PVP. Those guys have the armor pen to negate your DR. You can't negate deflect.

Ahh, alright that makes sense. TY for explaining that to me. Sorry for taking a hot minute to understand what you meant.

bvira

putzboy78 said:

How is AC any tankier than DO?

1. AC is MUCH better at tanking because exaltation divine mode gives 25% DR (spammable hence 100% up-time), fully empowered one gives another 25% DR, it makes surviving a geared GF burst or a gank much easier especially if you get caught without your astral shield.

2. Prophetic action OH bonus is supposed to reduce CC duration by 1/(1+25%)=20% but it seems to me that it either reduces much less than that or it just doesn't work at all. Someone needs to do some frame by frame analysis to confirm this.

jazzfong

In terms of solo content, running high prophet is viable from my experience unless you are facing some lag and the mobs dazed you. However, for group content, dont forget all their stats is multiplied and since everfrost deals half of the original damage extra to you unmitigated, you will have a hard time tanking them, thats your tank job, not you. Wait for the new dungeons to be unlocked then we will see whether what can we do to face the new mobs.

bitt3rnightmar3

thefabricant said:

AC might still be meta in mod 10 due to the plain stupid everfrost mechanic:

http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1218608/everfrost-damage

It hits hard....VERY hard. Someone should check if Empowered AS+AA mitigates it.

I was chillin in the Bryn Shander area on my AC DC Virtuous. I guess maybe my capstone was auto healing me. I have at least 55% DR with no bonding stacks on my DC. It makes me curious to see how my squishy wizard would fair in there since I haven't gone in there with anyone other than my main.

rapo973

I played some HEs around Bryn Shander, They are hard but my DC was quite competitive staying alive while my mates had some "problems". My DC still has some healing capabilities despite being rigtheous and those saved my life many times.
After many months, I've intensively performed again the noble art of dodging but I cannot tell if the Everfrost damage applies when the DC dodges.
I don't have a clear opinion about the DO/AC discussion, both have pro and cons, but at the end it's a matter of personal preferences.
I prefer to be AC not only for the power buff (whatever it is), but also because this path is more defensive - mitigation oriented. During the few hours I spent on preview, I saw that the combination of AA + heals is often strong enough to keep the party alive, while the righteous feats provided the necessary damage boost.

Anyway I think it's worth to test on preview the interactions between DCs after the lastest changes. Maybe some of us can meet on preview using the DC channel and check how it works.

michela123

If there are two DCs:
- WoLs stack (and the companion “absorbs” both WoLs aswell)
- AAs don’t stack, it considers the last casted one
- BoBs don’t stack, it considers the last casted one

bitt3rnightmar3

rapo973 said:

Anyway I think it's worth to test on preview the interactions between DCs after the latest changes. Maybe some of us can meet on preview using the DC channel and check how it works.

I'll come help. I will probably have some time this coming weekend to play around on preview. Just let me know when you guys are planning on meeting up and I'll try to make it. I'm in US - Eastern Standard time.

exrenbon

putzboy78 said:

Firstly a DPS DC does not perform well in end game PVP. Reasons being is that PVP is mostly about control and burst damage. DC control abilities are limited and the burst damage is not that great as we are based more around DOT stacking. On PC you will not find a DC in the top 200 ranks based on kills. DPS DC will perform better in lower ilvls and or non-end game pvp.

On PC the immortal healer DC is the meta.

Secondly AC is the more defensive oriented than DO which is why it performs well in PVP where we are not trying to kill, instead we try to hold a node and survive the constant onstlaught of CC that comes our way.

The CD on Prophetic Action makes it about useless in PVP and any skilled dps knows to soften us up a bit before going in with the nukes.

The end result is AC survivability & clutch saves out performs the added DPS from DO in the PVP arena.

I was on page 4 of the leaderboards sorted by kills about two months ago before my leaderboards glitched and reset. End game Righteous DO DPS DCs in Pvp are relegated to a hybrid tank+buff/debuff playstyle where surviving comes first and buff/debuff comes second. The secondary goal isn't actually to do dps, but rather to lower enemy DR, cc them, and buff your teammates.

Full DPS DCs are fine against weaker players since BtS, DG, and Flame Strike are strong enough to burst them. But later on, we don't have enough burst kill anyone with tenacity and deflect and not enough DoT to overcome passive healing.

putzboy78

Yeah i was page 9, a full 50% over the next DC in kills until last thursday. Some people got reset... some people didn't. Leaderboard is useless.

mrtehpuppy

We can't sort our lraderboards on Xbox that I'm aware of That makes me jealous! Back before the mount update I was able to hover in the top 10 pages as a straight DPS DC. But yeah, after the mount insignias showed up, I've not been able to cracking into the top 30 pages .

I've since just ditched the idea entirely of a DPS DC in PvP because I came to realize exactly what you guys are saying now. Just don't have enough burst damage to be worth anything. I've since respecced on over to a full buff/debuff for PvE and just started releveling a full healer alt to get my PvP fix in.

TBH I don't think they'll even try to bring the DPS DC back when they (Cryptic) starts doing their class rebalancing. Which makes me sadface. They'll likely just look at the usage metrics, see all the buff/debuff DCs and either make no adjustments to the paragon tree at all, or if anything, nerf it a bit... I really hope not. But with how they've been using the usage metric's to balance Gf, SW, and HR... I can't help but assume we will get the same treatment.

putzboy78

Before the mod 4 introduction of the righteous dc. DCs could almost never even get into a dungeon run or party. It was a pretty hard life for DCs. I will say the usage bell curve on DCs is better than on GF/SW/HR. They run almost the same thing all the time, while I run a lot of the same stuff in solo it varies a lot for parties. In CN, for example, I switch for every phase.

mrvincent1959

How nice, another nerf to the DC and yet we have a big list of bugs on the DC for things that dont work at all. Why dont they fix the bugs that have been reported over and over again?

putzboy78

fixing the power loop is not a nerf. Fairly certain noone thought it was WAI as people flocked to the build. Abe be careful what you wish for before because obviously with the new approach to balancing their intention is not as much about fixing as nerfing strong powers and strengthing weaker ones to create variety. Overall we would have more capabilities but less overall performance.

ichimaruginx

It seems they took an easy way out for the power loop problem. The problem is in the power loop - not in the amount of power shared by WoL. AA and Bondings seems to contribute to a majority the power shared and adressing those 2 should be enough.

Example of an alternative change:
AA and WoL buffs are not longer affected by Bonding Runestones.

By changing WoL to ignore all buffs - It's weakening the overall buff provided by DCs (DOs or ACs though ACs are more affected by it). Hence, also what putzboy78 stated: all DCs' overall performance *grumbles*

With that being said, I highly dislike that DCs are being used and regarded as a power buff bot and before this, an AP bot to the extend that people would specifically ask for a AP / AC DC. This fix has a good intention but it done so not in the most considerate way, as things sadly are usually done.

For those AC DC that fear that the path will be close to them, fear not! PvP DCs are mostly ACs for a reason. Both have their strengths and their weakness before Power OVERbuffing appear so both will still retain those pro and cons after it is addressed. It has always been my belief that the negligible difference of downing a boss in 30secs and 25 secs shouldn't be defining what paragon you play as a DC

mrvincent1959

Dont quote me on this, but I hear the DC will be reworked post mod 10. This includes possible major changes to the Annointed Champion path. Save your retraining tokens boys and girls

putzboy78

That's kind of vague. post mod 10 could be anytime. Regardless there's always rumors of dc nerfs flying around. Amazingly for the number of people who complain about the DC being to awesome, there is only a small community of us that play the DC. Yet everytime a dps class is in vogue people move to them in hoards. Same with OP and GF, DC still remains niche for some reason