MOD 10 DC changes

rapo973

As @silverkelt reported:
"Devoted Cleric:

Weapon's of Light no longer transfers power from bonding stones or other buffs.

This is the happiest news to me.. pure trash, it was the most broken thing in game.".

I've run my tests and I confirm it: WoL will work with the "base" power only.
Test case
Dummies as targets and to make my life easier, I removed from my cleric everything that generate extra-power directly or indirectly but bonding runestones:
- rings of sudden/rising whatever
- insignas from the mounts
- twisted weapons
Here what I got:

There's just a slight difference between the calculated power and the value I saw on preview (~200 power): cannot tell where it comes from, but the error is not so relevant (~0,2%)
This change should stop the power explosion when more power buff DCs play togheter. It doesn't mean that the power buff will be low, but I think that this change is needed and reasonable.

It seems that we will have another source to stack power as well:

silverkelt

We still need to test multiple dcs to make sure its really fixed fixed..

If that is still going on, then its not really fixed.

rapo973

silverkelt said:

We still need to test multiple dcs to make sure its really fixed fixed..

If that is still going on, then its not really fixed.

That's for sure. I think that we will see very high power if all the DCs have a companion with unchanged bonding runestones mechanic, but not at the level to break the game.
Just a guess.

dupeks

rapo973 said:

I removed from my cleric everything that generate extra-power directly or indirectly but bonding runestones:
- rings of sudden/rising whatever
- insignas from the mounts
- twisted weapons

I think this is the other thing that we'll need to test. Do all of these additional sources of power go into the "base" for sharing or whether they are counted as buffs and only help your personal power.

Either way it sounds like the crazy has been reduced but possibly not removed. And it sounds like power-sharing is still viable when you get up there in level.

I'm also not sure I exactly follow how you got to 21,560 as the buff for party.
WoL gives 10% unbuffed --> 1,882
BoB w/ BF gives 15% unbuffed --> 2,823
AA gives 50% --> 9,409 to you, but 50% of your pre-companion buffed power (31,050) --> 15,525
1,882 + 2,823 + 15,525 --> 20,230 rather than 21,560

Can you help me figure out where I'm going wrong?

PS: Thank you so much for the leg work

lerapiso818

dupeks said:

rapo973 said:

I removed from my cleric everything that generate extra-power directly or indirectly but bonding runestones:
- rings of sudden/rising whatever
- insignas from the mounts
- twisted weapons

I think this is the other thing that we'll need to test. Do all of these additional sources of power go into the "base" for sharing or whether they are counted as buffs and only help your personal power.

Either way it sounds like the crazy has been reduced but possibly not removed. And it sounds like power-sharing is still viable when you get up there in level.

I'm also not sure I exactly follow how you got to 21,560 as the buff for party.
WoL gives 10% unbuffed --> 1,882
BoB w/ BF gives 15% unbuffed --> 2,823
AA gives 50% --> 9,409 to you, but 50% of your pre-companion buffed power (31,050) --> 15,525
1,882 + 2,823 + 15,525 --> 20,230 rather than 21,560

Can you help me figure out where I'm going wrong?

PS: Thank you so much for the leg work

21560 is the amount with wol working on your total power ( 9409+2823+0.1*93283 =21560 )
He just fixed his sheet, so on preview the power you give will never change no matter how much power buff you have, so it's set on 14114 for his exemple.


talking about the nerf, it's a good thing but the real problem is the bonding mechanic, not WoL

rapo973

dupeks said:

rapo973 said:

I removed from my cleric everything that generate extra-power directly or indirectly but bonding runestones:
- rings of sudden/rising whatever
- insignas from the mounts
- twisted weapons

I think this is the other thing that we'll need to test. Do all of these additional sources of power go into the "base" for sharing or whether they are counted as buffs and only help your personal power.

Either way it sounds like the crazy has been reduced but possibly not removed. And it sounds like power-sharing is still viable when you get up there in level.

I'm also not sure I exactly follow how you got to 21,560 as the buff for party.
WoL gives 10% unbuffed --> 1,882
BoB w/ BF gives 15% unbuffed --> 2,823
AA gives 50% --> 9,409 to you, but 50% of your pre-companion buffed power (31,050) --> 15,525
1,882 + 2,823 + 15,525 --> 20,230 rather than 21,560

Can you help me figure out where I'm going wrong?

PS: Thank you so much for the leg work

@lerapiso818 : indeed there was a mistake at the end. I forgot to update the formula.
Here how it works:
12,232 = BF + AA. This is a value that you can see directly because it applies to you and added to your base power: overall 18,818 + 12,232 = 31,050
WoL is a different animal: you need a legendary companion and/or a companion equipped with bonding runestone to see the effect.

From the companion PoV, it has its own base power (6,636), buffed by BF+AA+WoL = 1,882+2,823+9,409 = 14,114. The buffed companion power is 6,636+14,114= 20,745.
This power is amplified by the bonding runestones (59,122) and passed to the cleric + the legendary companion bonus (3,112).
Overall, The DC is buffed by AA+BF+ what you get back from your companion = 18.818+12,232+59,122+3,112 = 92.284.
I've corrected the mistake: the overall outgoing power buff is 14,414, the same buff the companion gets. Moreover, this value doesn't reinforce the WoL of the nearby DCs and it should block the component of the reinforcing loop.
I've updated the first post.

Let's assume that there is another cleric with the same setup and stats close to me:
The DC and the companion get both 14,114 more power, so the buffed companion power is now 20,745+14,114 = 34,859
Bonding runestones amplification is now 34,859 x 2,85 = 99,348
Legendary companion bonus = 5,228
Overall the updated power is 31,050 +14,114 + 99,348 + 5,228 = 149,740. This is pretty high but miles/km away from the 250K+++ I see today.
It's not very difficult to write a general formula for N clerics with the same stats and setup.

crizpynutz

Nice job and ty for the math!

dupeks

crizpynutz said:

Nice job and ty for the math!

+1
Thanks @rapo973 for clarifying the math.

So power sharing for all 3 auras (BoB+BF, WoL, AA) is based on your unbuffed "base" power. At max power-sharing, your aura is providing 75% of your "base" power to friends (.75 * 18,818 = 14,114)

Your post also confirmed that "base" amount is not increased by the legendary active bonus (+15% stats).

The last outstanding question in my book is whether this "base" amount is influenced by:
1) Ring of Brutality (sudden power ring)
2) Ring of Rising Power
3) Insignia stats
4) Insignia bonuses (prot. camarad, possibly the new ones)
5) Companion active bonus stats (unlikely, since legendary active doesn't help)
6) OP aura gifts
7) Twisted wep set bonus
8) Trigger or stack based power boons

I'll report back if I can confirm any of these.

dupeks

I did some follow-up testing to see which modifiers get counted in the "base" power number used to calculate BoB+BF / WoL / AA power sharing. Here are preliminary results:

DO Count Towards Bonus

• Passive Stat Campaign Boons (didn't test guild power boon)
  
• Passive Equipment Stats
  
• Insignia Stats
  
• Companion Active Bonus Stat (+power from sellsword)
  

DO NOT Count Towards Bonus

• Ring of Brutality
  
• Ring of Rising Power
  
• Insignia Bonuses (Protector's Camaraderie)
  
• Companion Legendary Active Bonus (+15% stats does not count, but it does appear that the legendary stat bonus is based on companion's buffed power stat, including any power buffs you are putting out)
  
• 
  

DIDN'T TEST YET

• OP Aura Gifts
  
• Twisted Wep Set Bonus
  
• Guild Power Boon
  
• Elvish Fury Boon
  
• Rampaging Madness Boon
  

If anyone has a chance to test that which I have trouble testing I would heart you

I tested with a friend and he felt the following reduction in buffage on preview vs live with all my pistons firing (total +power shared in parentheses):

• WoL only: -7% (1,567 vs 1,681)
  
• WoL + BoB: -55% (3,918 vs 8,871)
  
• WoL + BoB + AA: -44% (11,755 vs 20,926)
  

My toon is 3.5k+ with 16.8k power out of combat on live, and my "base" power on preview is 15.6k (difference is b/c of 15% legendary bonus)

Testing was conducted at the IWD pier using BoB w/ BF with various modifiers off/on. I tried to test 1 modifier at a time as best as I could, recording own Power numbers to verify whether 15% buff strength was amplified.

Edit: completely rewritten for clarity

rapo973

lerapiso818 said:

talking about the nerf, it's a good thing but the real problem is the bonding mechanic, not WoL

I think that fixing WoL is a good thing to stop the exponential explosion. Concerning the b.runestones, it's evident that ~64% of the total power is generated by them, under the assumption that they are all rk 12.
A cooldown could be a good compromise between preserving the mechanic and some power peaks here and there without touching the DC feats again.

rapo973

dupeks said:

I did some follow-up testing to see which modifiers get counted in the "base" power number used to calculate BoB+BF / WoL / AA power sharing. Here are preliminary results:

[...]

I've used my wording for the sake of simplicity, but you're right when you want to control the elements of the "base" power at granular level.
In my test case the base power (18.118) is made of:
- Gear set, including cloack and belt (Tiamat set)
- Burning Holy set
- rk 12 enchantments
- All campaign boons
- Artifacts

NO:
- SH boons
- rings (empty slots)
- active companions providing power as bonus (i.e. Sellsword).
- off-hand power (Healer's lore bonus)
- Insigna bonuses

thefabricant

As far as I remember ( I have not checked in a while) augments count towards base power, so you should consider checking them as they should work with WoL+AA+BoB.

mrtehpuppy

thefabricant said:

As far as I remember ( I have not checked in a while) augments count towards base power, so you should consider checking them as they should work with WoL+AA+BoB.

Curious to know where the augment plays into it as well. If it factors into the "base" power that could be a fun little shift in the game's companion/runestone meta for the full buff/debuff DC. Wouldn't be too OP imo as you still can't eek out a whole lot from an augment. Additionally, if the augment factors into "base" power, I'd have the follow up question of, what about if you put a brutal ring on the augment, since last I checked, that was a thing too.

crizpynutz

thefabricant said:

As far as I remember ( I have not checked in a while) augments count towards base power, so you should consider checking them as they should work with WoL+AA+BoB.

So with an Ioun Stone of Allure (1 defense spot) I believe you would have a total base power of 5,889 assuming:

2x r12 empowered
3x avenger gear
3x r12 radiant
433 power at legendary for stone

Unsure of these two so didn't include them:
- Legendary 15% bonus
- Eldritch in defense slot

My DC Power Buff: AA (x*.5) + WoL (x*.1) + BoB (x*.15) = 4416.75

Allies Power Buff: 4416.75 + (4416.75*2.85) + (4416.75*.15) = 4416.75+12585.6+662.5125 = 17,664.8625

^ assumes personal buff to ally + 3x r12 bonding + 15% legendary bonus on companion then power buff is after ally bonding gift procs

I could be wrong, but I think that is how it would work out.

dupeks

thefabricant said:

As far as I remember ( I have not checked in a while) augments count towards base power, so you should consider checking them as they should work with WoL+AA+BoB.

That's a very good catch. I'll test an ioun stone + ring of brutality on it when I get home tonight and will report back my findings... unless someone beats me to it!

Also, any OP around who enjoys long walks on Preview who would be interested in testing Aura Gifts with me? Send a PM or add me @dupeks

PS: As I mention in my updated post, Legendary 15% stat increase is confirmed to NOT count in your "Base" power for sharing calculation. But, that stat buff is calculated based on the summoned companion's buffed stats, so power sharing does help the 15% stat increase, but it doesn't get fed back into a loop.

mrtehpuppy

dupeks said:

That's a very good catch. I'll test an ioun stone + ring of brutality on it when I get home tonight and will report back my findings... unless someone beats me to it!

...

Additionally, IF an augment does indeed add to "base" power, may want to double check on if Eldritch runestones slotted in defense do as well. Sorry not trying to be a nag. Just thinking "out loud" for the sake of thoroughness

dupeks

mrtehpuppy said:

Additionally, IF an augment does indeed add to "base" power, may want to double check on if Eldritch runestones slotted in defense do as well. Sorry not trying to be a nag. Just thinking "out loud" for the sake of thoroughness

That's also a good point. I'll check both tonight.

I really appreciate all of the input folks, I had kind of moved off of the augment meta and forgot all about these little gems. If it does turn out that augments are viable for power sharing builds, it would be one of the funniest (I assume unintended) re-balances, making augments a tiny bit relevant again.

putzboy78

dupeks said:

mrtehpuppy said:

Additionally, IF an augment does indeed add to "base" power, may want to double check on if Eldritch runestones slotted in defense do as well. Sorry not trying to be a nag. Just thinking "out loud" for the sake of thoroughness

That's also a good point. I'll check both tonight.

I really appreciate all of the input folks, I had kind of moved off of the augment meta and forgot all about these little gems. If it does turn out that augments are viable for power sharing builds, it would be one of the funniest (I assume unintended) re-balances, making augments a tiny bit relevant again.

Event if they did, would you switch out your bonded pet for it? Power really is a low return stat and the buff has limited range vs a 10% debuff from a sellsword for example. And that doesn't include the higher personal stats from bonding, the impact of displaced agro, companion damage, etc. I think its good to test and know, but I'm doubting it will change the meta.

BTW, the lack of legendary bonus working makes me suspicious that the augment won't work. The mechanic seems to similar. Otherwise I would say that your base power is what you have when you stand in an open field and not engaged in combat. The Legendary bonus is the one that logic out the window.

dupeks

putzboy78 said:

dupeks said:

mrtehpuppy said:

Additionally, IF an augment does indeed add to "base" power, may want to double check on if Eldritch runestones slotted in defense do as well. Sorry not trying to be a nag. Just thinking "out loud" for the sake of thoroughness

That's also a good point. I'll check both tonight.

I really appreciate all of the input folks, I had kind of moved off of the augment meta and forgot all about these little gems. If it does turn out that augments are viable for power sharing builds, it would be one of the funniest (I assume unintended) re-balances, making augments a tiny bit relevant again.

Event if they did, would you switch out your bonded pet for it? Power really is a low return stat and the buff has limited range vs a 10% debuff from a sellsword for example. And that doesn't include the higher personal stats from bonding, the impact of displaced agro, companion damage, etc. I think its good to test and know, but I'm doubting it will change the meta.

BTW, the lack of legendary bonus working makes me suspicious that the augment won't work. The mechanic seems to similar. Otherwise I would say that your base power is what you have when you stand in an open field and not engaged in combat. The Legendary bonus is the one that logic out the window.

Agreed that it might not make sense to swap out for an augment at high ilvl still, but it might make power sharing w/ augment viable for mid-iLvl support DCs.

Also, the power bonus does apply to companions, so at max level party members are getting 1x aura directly + 2.85x aura via bonding for 3.85x aura total (actually a hair over if they have a legendary pet too). Even if I'm sharing say 4K power consistently, that translates to over 15k power for each party member. If slotting an augment drops my personal DPS but increases my power sharing say up to 6k, that's over 23k power for each party member.

On a related note, the 15% Legendary buff is implemented as a timed buff that refreshes before it expires. It appears as a buff icon on your portrait. Augment stats don't have a similar implementation, so there's hope that augments work in full. Also giving me hope is the fact that the active +power from sellsword is also included in your "base"

mrtehpuppy

putzboy78 said:

Event if they did, would you switch out your bonded pet for it? Power really is a low return stat and the buff has limited range vs a 10% debuff from a sellsword for example. And that doesn't include the higher personal stats from bonding, the impact of displaced agro, companion damage, etc. I think its good to test and know, but I'm doubting it will change the meta.

Given that any class can use a bond proccing companion with debuffs to provide benefit to the team, assuming that similar companions' debuffs don't stack (i.e. 2 sellswords), and only other DCs (and OPs) could (potentially) use an augment to provide a bigger boost to the group's Power, I'd say yes, it's worthwhile to make the switch to an augment. At BiS levels we're talking about being able to share an extra 900-6,750 Power. But that's all based on augment even contributing to "base". If it doesn't, well we shrug our shoulders and move on I guess. I kinda dig the idea of a possible companion meta shift back to augments, feel like they've been useless for a while now.

putzboy78

Well if they made companion gear BOA, I'd have a lot more reason to use augments because all my alts have an epic Stone of Allure, I can't afford the same specialty pets on all my alts.

dupeks

I checked augments, they don't work
Neither do Eldritch Runestones in defense slots
Neither do Rings of Brutality on augments or combined with Eldritch Runestones on non-augment pets

I guess we got all nostalgic and excited about dusting off glowing orbs for nothing

DO Count Towards Bonus

• Passive Stat Campaign Boons (didn't test guild power boon)
  
• Passive Equipment Stats
  
• Insignia Stats
  
• Companion Active Bonus Stat (+power from sellsword)
  

DO NOT Count Towards Bonus

• Ring of Brutality (neither on player nor on companion)
  
• Ring of Rising Power
  
• Insignia Bonuses (Protector's Camaraderie)
  
• Companion Legendary Active Bonus (+15% stats does not count, but it does appear that the legendary stat bonus is based on companion's buffed power stat, including any power buffs you are putting out)
  
• Augment Companion Stats
  
• Eldritch Runestone in Defense Slot Stat Bonus
  

DIDN'T TEST YET

• OP Aura Gifts
  
• Twisted Wep Set Bonus
  
• Guild Power Boon
  
• Elvish Fury Boon
  
• Rampaging Madness Boon
  

mrtehpuppy

aw man! Oh well, spose we'll just have to stick with the new debuff companion meta, Unless one of the devs decides to read through this and maybe change the way it works? I won't get my hopes up there though. As a side note before I disappear off the Cryptic forums again to go to my NW subreddit home, I understand these changes were much needed due to ... Power sharings behavior prior to this. But I personally feel like this move will also kill the AC path's viability unless the AC is doing content alongside a DO. I understand it wasn't working as intended necessarily but the pre-fix power share gave viability (and then some) to a daily being used over HG. I have a strong feeling now that simply because AA is no longer viable when compared to HG and given the way that the devs are rebalancing the classes (tuning down overused skills), I am calling it now, HG is going to catch a nerf... and that, makes me REALLY sad.

putzboy78

the biggest risk is the devs don't know how the dc is played. There are many screamers in the forums that would rather see the dcs resticted to a healer role. I don't find the attitude in game matches that; however, a strict healer gets almost no playing time in todays content. There simply isn't a demand for them and if the DC role as a buff/debuff isn't enough they will not be able to get into parties anymore. Do the dev's know/understand that? It's pretty doubtful but if your only doubling party damage at peak, you probably won't get much play time in game. I think DC needs to be able to double party damage on average to get love from LFG.

michela123

DO Count Toward Bonus:
Stronghold Boon
Assassin’s Covenant
Berserker’s Rage
Healer’s Lore offhand bonus
Cool Resolve

DO NOT Count Toward Bonus:
Twisted Weapon Set Bonus (I can't check it personally, but they told me it doesn’t)
Aura Gifts (they just sum to each other but they don’t interact)
Rampaging Madness
Elvish Fury

mrtehpuppy said:

As a side note before I disappear off the Cryptic forums again to go to my NW subreddit home, I understand these changes were much needed due to ... Power sharings behavior prior to this. But I personally feel like this move will also kill the AC path's viability unless the AC is doing content alongside a DO. I understand it wasn't working as intended necessarily but the pre-fix power share gave viability (and then some) to a daily being used over HG. I have a strong feeling now that simply because AA is no longer viable when compared to HG and given the way that the devs are rebalancing the classes (tuning down overused skills), I am calling it now, HG is going to catch a nerf... and that, makes me REALLY sad.

I think it depends on situations, DC build and party composition. You have to consider that:
- If the person you buff has bondings r12, his companion gives him back the bonus multiplied *2,85. So a DC with good equipment in a BiS party can buff people for 30-40k power with AA.
- AA grants more Hastening Lights than HG, so more cooldown reductions (I’ll kill whoever says that the cd reduction doesn’t work).
- AA can be used when fighting little pulls of mobs that last few seconds.

So... yes, HG is generally stronger, but AA isn't that weak as it seems.

putzboy78

range also comes into play, i think if your party composition is ranged its a lot more work to try and keep them close enough for all the buffs. If you run with an all melee group, they are a bit more predictable which makes it easier to support them

lerapiso818

I made a simple sheet to show the potential damage difference realative to our buffs between mod 9 and mod 10, with basic stats (20k base power, pet 5k power), focused on AA, BoB and WoL only, ignoring other source of power and other buffs (except HG for the AC/DO comparaison).



This is some nice damage flying away

dupeks

I think i'm going to try to keep a viable AC virt build, and turn it into a "base power"-maximized daily spammer. I have a friend who is a DO righteous and I think it'll be fun to synergize .

But as with all things foretold in the shard yonder, I'll wait and see after the patch. Not really looking to invest that much time in preview quite yet (he said, noting the irony).

I love running both AA and HG. Its very situational, trash or tight quarters go with AA and lay down HG if you know you're not moving and there's no immediate threat of 1-shots. It also makes running with an OP tank work pretty swell (I imagine on par with GF after ITF sadface).

bvira

I don't see it as a nerf, power buff now is simply too strong, and it trivializes the game profoundly.
Bosses now die as quickly as trash, it just isn't right.

dupeks

For reference, below please find which elements contribute to the Mod 10 "Base Power" for DC Power Sharing (BoB w/ BF, WoL, AA).

The rule of thumb appears to be "if it has an icon by your portrait, it doesn't count" with the additional (sad) exclusion of Augment companions. (Also not sure whether the M10 Insignia have an icon)

DO Count Towards Power-Sharing "Base Power"

• Passive Stat Campaign Boons
  
• SH Power Boon
  
• Cool Resolve (IWD Boon)
  
• Passive Equipment Stats
  
• Healer's Lore Offhand Bonus
  
• Insignia Stats
  
• Companion Active Bonus Stat (+power from sellsword)
  
• Assassin's Covenant (M10 Insignia Bonus)
  
• Berserker's Rage (M10 Insignia Bonus)
  

DO NOT Count Towards Power-Sharing "Base Power"

• Ring of Brutality (neither on player nor on companion)
  
• Ring of Rising Power
  
• Twisted Weapon Set Bonus
  
• Rampaging Madness (Dread Ring Boon)
  
• Elvish Fury (Sharandar Boon)
  
• Companion's Gift (Bonding Runestone Stat Bonus)
  
• Augment Companion Stat Bonus
  
• Protector's Camaraderie / Friendship Insignia Bonus
  
• Companion Legendary Active Bonus (+15% stats does not count, but it does appear that the legendary stat bonus is based on companion's buffed power stat, including any power buffs you are putting out)
  
• Eldritch Runestone in Defense Slot Stat Bonus
  
• OP Aura Gifts (they just sum together but don't interact)
  

Thanks to everyone who helped compile this list, i think it's relatively complete

polaris1986

So? Ione stone is better for party now or also do not counts?