Glad you like the changes, we feel that when we add new heights of gear it is important to bring up the floor of what players can easily obtain still feeling relatively competitive instead of just obsolete.
Yes exactly, upgrading shouldn't feel like older things are totally obsolete. Competition to get higher gear is what mainly drives the game play of many players so thats acceptable as well, however care should be given about the balance of a new player acquiring the high end gear and an end game player getting it, so it stays in the possible, fun, game play range.
Regarding artifact activated powers we are aware and would like to address this at some point. The same is also true for mount powers as well (except maybe Tenser's). They don't scale, they do less dps than pressing almost anything else, and they don't synergize with any class mechanics. Many of those can be addressed, but we need a good plan how to do this.
That plan needs to be made sooner than later. A simple plan can be to buff the artifact damage+buffs by per ratio of the same code that upgraded the critter HP and stats. A harder version can be taking a hard look on the active power of all the artifacts and scaling them to usefulness rather than simple damage and buff. I think artifacts should be unique in their use and not just used as tool of stat boost.
thunderlore2Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 29Arc User
The new incoming mod features new gear sets, which is nice upgrading will keep things from going stale and the analogy adopted that no class should be forced to take one set, will also uphold.
However, a lot of player have invested quite a bit of time and money into 'refining' their gear sets, what i mean is through the Black Ice Elemental Fusion, which required quite a few resources. As well as adding stats to them through armor kits which are also quite expensive or require a lot of AD to craft as well.
A request is to implement a system that when old gear is salvaged it returns some of the items that were required to upgrade it. For example An elementally infused gear gives a certain amount of black ice and unified elements. An armor kit equipped gear returns a lesser version of that kit. This will atleast return something from the old gear and will still keep the grinding spirit up in that not everything required to upgrade the new gear will be provided by the salvage rather only some. will be given back rest will still need to be farmed/bought.
Another suggestion is a similar system as to the lostmauth trade NPC that you can trade your old gear for the new one with same 'refines' as the last one.
Whenever a new gear set hits these are usually the concerns of the players that have already been playing. Instead of focusing on the newness and excitement of new gear their happiness is thwarted by these concerns.
Okay, so another thought on the changes to Salvage - this could have an impact on Surplus Equipment donations to the mimic.
Currently the difference in Surplus points a blue vs purple is a gigantic amount. Since they currently salvage for the same amount, it makes more sense to donate purple drops and salvage your blue drops. It was very common to see people organise T2 Surplus runs in order to help the coffer get to the required amount.
With these proposed changes, you are going to have people needing to make a choice between guild progression and AD. This is going to hit the smaller guilds more.
No player should contribute T2 drops to the coffer. It is far more cost effective to purchase purple legacy equipment from the Tradebar vendor, instead. A single piece purchased for 5 tradebars is worth 810 points in surplus equipment for the coffer.
Another question: When and why did you changed the invoking? When invoking on preview you don't get RAD, you get kind of a bonus for AD. Sounds awesome at first but implies that you have to be ingame really long to get the best result of salvaging. And what I don't like: To get a little bit AD I have to do something with my chars. Sure, the game should reward playing but I can't play with all my seven chars. There are some days when I can't get enough salvageable items for every char although I'm playing a lot. Why is this not mentioned in the patch notes? Please tell me something about it, @panderus@terramak
I missed this patch note, I apologize. Here is the updated line that I will add to the notes on the first page:
Invocation now gives a Rough AD bonus instead of granting Rough AD directly. The bonus Rough AD awarded is moderately larger than what was previously granted as straight Rough AD. General Invoking while playing other Rough AD generating activities will see a reasonable increase in AD earned, while Invoking only will see a drastic decrease.
Okay, so another thought on the changes to Salvage - this could have an impact on Surplus Equipment donations to the mimic.
Currently the difference in Surplus points a blue vs purple is a gigantic amount. Since they currently salvage for the same amount, it makes more sense to donate purple drops and salvage your blue drops. It was very common to see people organise T2 Surplus runs in order to help the coffer get to the required amount.
With these proposed changes, you are going to have people needing to make a choice between guild progression and AD. This is going to hit the smaller guilds more.
No player should contribute T2 drops to the coffer. It is far more cost effective to purchase purple legacy equipment from the Tradebar vendor, instead. A single piece purchased for 5 tradebars is worth 810 points in surplus equipment for the coffer.
So, salvaging the items, buying keys and then using the tradebars is best? I don't quite think so. 1 key is about 60k = 15 rings salvaged at 4k each. 1 key is worth about 5 tradebars, maybe 7. so doing it that way you are trading 12k surplus for 810 surplus and some sort of item, i doubt the item makes up the cost of the other 11.2k surplus
Guild - The Imaginary Friends We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Another question: When and why did you changed the invoking? When invoking on preview you don't get RAD, you get kind of a bonus for AD. Sounds awesome at first but implies that you have to be ingame really long to get the best result of salvaging. And what I don't like: To get a little bit AD I have to do something with my chars. Sure, the game should reward playing but I can't play with all my seven chars. There are some days when I can't get enough salvageable items for every char although I'm playing a lot. Why is this not mentioned in the patch notes? Please tell me something about it, @panderus@terramak
I missed this patch note, I apologize. Here is the updated line that I will add to the notes on the first page:
Invocation now gives a Rough AD bonus instead of granting Rough AD directly. The bonus Rough AD awarded is moderately larger than what was previously granted as straight Rough AD. General Invoking while playing other Rough AD generating activities will see a reasonable increase in AD earned, while Invoking only will see a drastic decrease.
Overall, I think the change to the AD generation element is fair. It rewards playing, which is something you guys have been trying to accomplish all along.
What I object to is the timeline that you've tied this benefit to. A 4-hour cycle is too long for humans with other stuff to do in the day. As with so many things, it's no trouble at all for scripters that can merrily let their bot run while they're nowhere near a computer. I come home from work and I can choose between making supper at a reasonable time or getting my first few invokes started so that they won't be a distraction from playing later. Heaven forfend I go to bed before midnight and miss the second coin. The entire system is human-unfriendly. As such, I don't give a rat's behind about removing the AD because you've abstracted the rewards to an extent where I don't feel bad about not doing the cycle. That might not be what you were going for, but it's a disengagement that will do me good.
Here's my copypasta from another thread explaining why the new system is really bad for players in the current form.
In brief, if you're going to run dungeons with these changes (first and second, not subsequent runs that grant paltry AD), you're better off doing so after you've invoked 5 times to get your maximum bonus buff first. That's 2.5 hours of waiting to do something. Or run your dungeons and then do your salvaging 2.5 hours later. This is stupid, or at least it's an indication that they're designing something that is once again not really intended to benefit players, because the system is not based on a reasonable model for how people want to play the game (ie. log in and DO STUFF).
Please consider shortening the cycle.
Edit: @confusedpoof also raises a good point that you can't see how much of your bonus AD you've used anywhere. We don't like invisible systems.
I missed this patch note, I apologize. Here is the updated line that I will add to the notes on the first page:
Invocation now gives a Rough AD bonus instead of granting Rough AD directly. The bonus Rough AD awarded is moderately larger than what was previously granted as straight Rough AD. General Invoking while playing other Rough AD generating activities will see a reasonable increase in AD earned, while Invoking only will see a drastic decrease.
This makes me a sad panda.
Nixon the TR
Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
The 4-hour cycle also makes it largely impossible to actually use most of the "XP gained at bonus rate" reward, which I find incredibly frustrating. Unless you're able to play enough to use it up in between invokes on each character (some of us are still *trying* to maintain multiple alts), most of it gets overwritten and wasted. It's probably not intended to be a big deal, but that's a constant low-grade irritation for me.
Another question: When and why did you changed the invoking? When invoking on preview you don't get RAD, you get kind of a bonus for AD. Sounds awesome at first but implies that you have to be ingame really long to get the best result of salvaging. And what I don't like: To get a little bit AD I have to do something with my chars. Sure, the game should reward playing but I can't play with all my seven chars. There are some days when I can't get enough salvageable items for every char although I'm playing a lot. Why is this not mentioned in the patch notes? Please tell me something about it, @panderus@terramak
I missed this patch note, I apologize. Here is the updated line that I will add to the notes on the first page:
Invocation now gives a Rough AD bonus instead of granting Rough AD directly. The bonus Rough AD awarded is moderately larger than what was previously granted as straight Rough AD. General Invoking while playing other Rough AD generating activities will see a reasonable increase in AD earned, while Invoking only will see a drastic decrease.
When will the dev's stop taking away from this game instead of giving more reasons to play?
Guild Wars is doing daily rewards properly. You log in and get your reward. I wish Neverwinter would do it the same way. It was a pain, it is a pain and will always be a pain.
Edit: @confusedpoof also raises a good point that you can't see how much of your bonus AD you've used anywhere. We don't like invisible systems.
It's not completely invisible, but it is hard to track. There's a notification when you use some of your bonus. "You lost 300 50% Bonus Raw Astral Diamonds."
General Invoking while playing other Rough AD generating activities will see a reasonable increase in AD earned, while Invoking only will see a drastic decrease.
Bonus Diamonds work with Salvaging. So characters can buy an Underdark Ring off the Auction House (they sell for approximately their salvage value) then salvage. However, this is a fair bit of micromanagement. There's a particular class of accounts that excels at micromanagement... and it's not "normal players".
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I get that they want to make AD a reward for playing the game, not using automated play. To take advantage of the "bonus" to rAD, you still need to earn rAD via other methods to refine it.
That's fine. But to @beckylunatic point, I don't play four hours a day. At best, after I get the kids to bed, I have maybe an hour or two to play. Sometimes on the weekends, I can accumulate four hours of play. But even then, this system doesn't actually reward playing the game. It just rewards logging in, clicking a button and logging out over a certain time frame.
But for the longest time I've felt like Invoking rewards were poorly done. As @fdsakhfduewhfiuf mentioned, I'd much rather you guys take a system like what GW2 does and create daily, weekly and monthly rewards for completing content. Similar to what you did with Respen's Game, but on a bigger scale. I might log in and get my daily quest reward by doing one skirmish, doing 3 HE's and earning 10 gold. My weekly quest might be run 5 dungeons, 5 skirmishes, complete 15 HEs, and kill 50 devils. Monthly might be 15 dungeons, 20 skirmishes, 30 HE's, complete 50 quests, etc...
And then just make invocation a thing you do once a day, as a bonus to help you do content. Maybe when you invoke, you can pick a god. Tempus gives you a 10% bonus to damage. Torm gives you a 10% reduction in damage. Moradin gives you a 10% bonus on chance to complete profession tasks. Kelemvor protects you from getting injuries when you die. Tymora gives you a 5% chance to receive a refining stone for killing a bad guy. Selune gives you a 10% bonus to incoming and outgoing healing...stuff like that. Each bonus lasts for 60 minutes, and can be used to help you complete whatever you're doing that day.
But the current invocation changes? Eh. It's just another not great change on top of a not that great system that really needs to be completely overhauled anyway.
I'm not sure how many characters named Pray34 or Invoke_01 are operated manually, but there undeniably are accounts running invocation scripts. It's a pretty straightforward set of sequential actions.
I'm not sure how many characters named Pray34 or Invoke_01 are operated manually, but there undeniably are accounts running invocation scripts. It's a pretty straightforward set of sequential actions.
That's not going to stop them from changing to dungeon running to pile up AD.
And botters cry roflm im love it! Ty pandoman @panderus ! Next step investigate the accounts of those who have millions of ad and can not justify how!
lol what? This doesn't hurt botters.
I think you may have missed that hquadros was saying that botters will be really pleased with this change as it will actually help them pick up more AD....or did I misunderstand his 'rofl' reference ? Anyway, as usual, the only people hurt will be regular players.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Yeah, this will likely drive down the player base even more. I wouldn't doubt it. It's not even broken. The amount bots make from anything else makes invoking look like child's play.
Epic queues don't even want to pop anymore now, less you want to click on all of them and wait 30 min only to get dumped in one that's a murder fest full of PUGs, or beg/pray people are forming groups.
In the end, making money is no longer in your hands. It just becomes RNG itself. Or make a trickle for doing weekly quests....
50-130k a day doesn't even buy you much. Afford a coal ward off AH once a week? Sure, the leadership nuke had sense to it, make over 300k a day with no effort in a short span of time. The invoke process deserves a little reward for being a pain in the @#$ for people doing it the legit way. At least give normal people some way to make a little income that they have control over.
The reason we made this change was because was saw that Invocation was the largest source of AD that could be generated by not actually playing the game, this is not good. It was very apparent when comparing the PC numbers with what was happening on Xbox, VERY different playstyles but the vast difference between the two groups suggested this was a problem area.
The change we made will actually increase the amount of AD you would earn if combined with actual gameplay. You can even bank it for a week and play all on the weekend, you just have to do something to actually earn that AD now instead of having a bot army.
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
edited July 2016
@panderus Bots will adapt. They'll start collecting and salvaging gear or simply run the easy skirmishes/dungeons themselves.
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someonediesMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,257Arc User
The change we made will actually increase the amount of AD you would earn if combined with actual gameplay. You can even bank it for a week and play all on the weekend, you just have to do something to actually earn that AD now instead of having a bot army.
Salvage will reduce amount of "free" rAD obtain per day.
Dead 🔪
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
The reason we made this change was because was saw that Invocation was the largest source of AD that could be generated by not actually playing the game, this is not good. It was very apparent when comparing the PC numbers with what was happening on Xbox, VERY different playstyles but the vast difference between the two groups suggested this was a problem area.
The change we made will actually increase the amount of AD you would earn if combined with actual gameplay. You can even bank it for a week and play all on the weekend, you just have to do something to actually earn that AD now instead of having a bot army.
Does the bonus reset on a weekly basis? That changes a lot of my concerns. It would be even better, in my view, if it just accumulates indefinitely for the player to use or not use according to how much they play a particular character, since you get no bonus from not doing anything (except maybe, as mentioned, buying unbound salvage for small gains). The way the XP bonus worked before you guys patched that to overwrite itself.
I want more information about how this system is meant to work, both reset times and interaction with VIP (because it *is* yet another change to VIP benefits).
And the amount of bonus AD a character has available really needs to be tracked somewhere we can see it.
The reason we made this change was because was saw that Invocation was the largest source of AD that could be generated by not actually playing the game, this is not good. It was very apparent when comparing the PC numbers with what was happening on Xbox, VERY different playstyles but the vast difference between the two groups suggested this was a problem area.
The change we made will actually increase the amount of AD you would earn if combined with actual gameplay. You can even bank it for a week and play all on the weekend, you just have to do something to actually earn that AD now instead of having a bot army.
and what do you think the RP from leadership is doing exactly?
The reason we made this change was because was saw that Invocation was the largest source of AD that could be generated by not actually playing the game, this is not good. It was very apparent when comparing the PC numbers with what was happening on Xbox, VERY different playstyles but the vast difference between the two groups suggested this was a problem area.
The change we made will actually increase the amount of AD you would earn if combined with actual gameplay. You can even bank it for a week and play all on the weekend, you just have to do something to actually earn that AD now instead of having a bot army.
and what do you think the RP from leadership is doing exactly?
Oh Christ. Leave that alone at least.
We don't need to kill every last thing to fight the bots.
Comments
https://arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1216650/the-guild-of-fun-and-humor-humor-is-god
However, a lot of player have invested quite a bit of time and money into 'refining' their gear sets, what i mean is through the Black Ice Elemental Fusion, which required quite a few resources. As well as adding stats to them through armor kits which are also quite expensive or require a lot of AD to craft as well.
A request is to implement a system that when old gear is salvaged it returns some of the items that were required to upgrade it. For example An elementally infused gear gives a certain amount of black ice and unified elements. An armor kit equipped gear returns a lesser version of that kit. This will atleast return something from the old gear and will still keep the grinding spirit up in that not everything required to upgrade the new gear will be provided by the salvage rather only some. will be given back rest will still need to be farmed/bought.
Another suggestion is a similar system as to the lostmauth trade NPC that you can trade your old gear for the new one with same 'refines' as the last one.
Whenever a new gear set hits these are usually the concerns of the players that have already been playing. Instead of focusing on the newness and excitement of new gear their happiness is thwarted by these concerns.
I hope this idea is taken into consideration.
https://arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1216650/the-guild-of-fun-and-humor-humor-is-god
Invocation now gives a Rough AD bonus instead of granting Rough AD directly. The bonus Rough AD awarded is moderately larger than what was previously granted as straight Rough AD. General Invoking while playing other Rough AD generating activities will see a reasonable increase in AD earned, while Invoking only will see a drastic decrease.
We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
What I object to is the timeline that you've tied this benefit to. A 4-hour cycle is too long for humans with other stuff to do in the day. As with so many things, it's no trouble at all for scripters that can merrily let their bot run while they're nowhere near a computer. I come home from work and I can choose between making supper at a reasonable time or getting my first few invokes started so that they won't be a distraction from playing later. Heaven forfend I go to bed before midnight and miss the second coin. The entire system is human-unfriendly. As such, I don't give a rat's behind about removing the AD because you've abstracted the rewards to an extent where I don't feel bad about not doing the cycle. That might not be what you were going for, but it's a disengagement that will do me good.
Here's my copypasta from another thread explaining why the new system is really bad for players in the current form.
In brief, if you're going to run dungeons with these changes (first and second, not subsequent runs that grant paltry AD), you're better off doing so after you've invoked 5 times to get your maximum bonus buff first. That's 2.5 hours of waiting to do something. Or run your dungeons and then do your salvaging 2.5 hours later. This is stupid, or at least it's an indication that they're designing something that is once again not really intended to benefit players, because the system is not based on a reasonable model for how people want to play the game (ie. log in and DO STUFF).
Please consider shortening the cycle.
Edit: @confusedpoof also raises a good point that you can't see how much of your bonus AD you've used anywhere. We don't like invisible systems.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
That's fine. But to @beckylunatic point, I don't play four hours a day. At best, after I get the kids to bed, I have maybe an hour or two to play. Sometimes on the weekends, I can accumulate four hours of play. But even then, this system doesn't actually reward playing the game. It just rewards logging in, clicking a button and logging out over a certain time frame.
But for the longest time I've felt like Invoking rewards were poorly done. As @fdsakhfduewhfiuf mentioned, I'd much rather you guys take a system like what GW2 does and create daily, weekly and monthly rewards for completing content. Similar to what you did with Respen's Game, but on a bigger scale. I might log in and get my daily quest reward by doing one skirmish, doing 3 HE's and earning 10 gold. My weekly quest might be run 5 dungeons, 5 skirmishes, complete 15 HEs, and kill 50 devils. Monthly might be 15 dungeons, 20 skirmishes, 30 HE's, complete 50 quests, etc...
And then just make invocation a thing you do once a day, as a bonus to help you do content. Maybe when you invoke, you can pick a god. Tempus gives you a 10% bonus to damage. Torm gives you a 10% reduction in damage. Moradin gives you a 10% bonus on chance to complete profession tasks. Kelemvor protects you from getting injuries when you die. Tymora gives you a 5% chance to receive a refining stone for killing a bad guy. Selune gives you a 10% bonus to incoming and outgoing healing...stuff like that. Each bonus lasts for 60 minutes, and can be used to help you complete whatever you're doing that day.
But the current invocation changes? Eh. It's just another not great change on top of a not that great system that really needs to be completely overhauled anyway.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Epic queues don't even want to pop anymore now, less you want to click on all of them and wait 30 min only to get dumped in one that's a murder fest full of PUGs, or beg/pray people are forming groups.
In the end, making money is no longer in your hands. It just becomes RNG itself. Or make a trickle for doing weekly quests....
50-130k a day doesn't even buy you much. Afford a coal ward off AH once a week? Sure, the leadership nuke had sense to it, make over 300k a day with no effort in a short span of time. The invoke process deserves a little reward for being a pain in the @#$ for people doing it the legit way. At least give normal people some way to make a little income that they have control over.
The change we made will actually increase the amount of AD you would earn if combined with actual gameplay. You can even bank it for a week and play all on the weekend, you just have to do something to actually earn that AD now instead of having a bot army.
Dead🔪I want more information about how this system is meant to work, both reset times and interaction with VIP (because it *is* yet another change to VIP benefits).
And the amount of bonus AD a character has available really needs to be tracked somewhere we can see it.
And the 4-hour cycle still blows.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
We don't need to kill every last thing to fight the bots.