The reason we made this change was because was saw that Invocation was the largest source of AD that could be generated by not actually playing the game, this is not good. It was very apparent when comparing the PC numbers with what was happening on Xbox, VERY different playstyles but the vast difference between the two groups suggested this was a problem area.
The change we made will actually increase the amount of AD you would earn if combined with actual gameplay. You can even bank it for a week and play all on the weekend, you just have to do something to actually earn that AD now instead of having a bot army.
As long as that gameplay includes sources of AD?
So forget, progression, boons, quests and building a stronghold, all that unimportant stuff.. Just run dungeons and skirmishes and the weeklies you so graciously gave us when you guys burned us last time?..
And so much for alt friendly. Now it seems anything other then your main is a "bot army", very nice..
The "vast difference between the two groups suggested" that there is a ~2 year difference in the platforms, that's all.. They haven't been around long enough to have the alt.. I mean.. bot army we do.
Kudo's on achieving yet a new low..
Post edited by wlinaz on
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
And don't forget to update whatever Aralynn the Pious has to say about invocation, because I suspect it's become wildly inaccurate.
and what do you think the RP from leadership is doing exactly?
Actually, we think it has been much less impactful than expected. After an initial evaluation it is not worth touching the RP from Leadership especially since that is the benefit most propping the profession up at end game for now.
Okay, so another thought on the changes to Salvage - this could have an impact on Surplus Equipment donations to the mimic.
Currently the difference in Surplus points a blue vs purple is a gigantic amount. Since they currently salvage for the same amount, it makes more sense to donate purple drops and salvage your blue drops. It was very common to see people organise T2 Surplus runs in order to help the coffer get to the required amount.
With these proposed changes, you are going to have people needing to make a choice between guild progression and AD. This is going to hit the smaller guilds more.
No player should contribute T2 drops to the coffer. It is far more cost effective to purchase purple legacy equipment from the Tradebar vendor, instead. A single piece purchased for 5 tradebars is worth 810 points in surplus equipment for the coffer.
Which a lot of people do, but also there are heaps that do not because they dont have trade bars.
Another question: When and why did you changed the invoking? When invoking on preview you don't get RAD, you get kind of a bonus for AD. Sounds awesome at first but implies that you have to be ingame really long to get the best result of salvaging. And what I don't like: To get a little bit AD I have to do something with my chars. Sure, the game should reward playing but I can't play with all my seven chars. There are some days when I can't get enough salvageable items for every char although I'm playing a lot. Why is this not mentioned in the patch notes? Please tell me something about it, @panderus@terramak
I missed this patch note, I apologize. Here is the updated line that I will add to the notes on the first page:
Invocation now gives a Rough AD bonus instead of granting Rough AD directly. The bonus Rough AD awarded is moderately larger than what was previously granted as straight Rough AD. General Invoking while playing other Rough AD generating activities will see a reasonable increase in AD earned, while Invoking only will see a drastic decrease.
Panderus - we need more info around how this bonus pool stacks/resets (daily, weekly, does not reset at all?) and we also need to be able to see the bonus pool remaining amount (like we can hover over the XP bar to see the bonus pool there).
Also, as @beckylunatic said, reworking the invokes so we dont need to wait until we have done our 90 min/5th invoke (which takes 2.5-3 hours to get to) before we have the full days potential and can start earning AD would help.
And botters cry roflm im love it! Ty pandoman @panderus ! Next step investigate the accounts of those who have millions of ad and can not justify how!
lol what? This doesn't hurt botters.
I think you may have missed that hquadros was saying that botters will be really pleased with this change as it will actually help them pick up more AD....or did I misunderstand his 'rofl' reference ? Anyway, as usual, the only people hurt will be regular players.
I took the statement as @hquadros calling all of us on this thread (objecting to the statement) botters. Apparently disagreeing with something equates you to being a bot. #BotsLivesMatter
The reason we made this change was because was saw that Invocation was the largest source of AD that could be generated by not actually playing the game
Well, the largest source used to come through the leadership profession which was great because while I was at work I could log in to the Gateway through my phone and rank up my professions during my lunch hour to help me earn the AD I needed to progress my character since I couldn't be actually in the game for hours a day - which was only really available in a significant amount after grinding up the profession to level 20. Then that got taken away. Which was fine because there were a lot of other ways to earn AD.
Like running T1 and T2 dungeons and getting decent purple gear which I could either salvage, or sell for quite a bit of profit that allowed me to then buy the enchants and other items I needed, to again, progress my character. Then the dungeons disappeared and gear along with them. Now, we have some of those dungeons back and you get AD for completing 2 runs a day and (if you're lucky) a drop that you can salvage for a decent amount (although apparently now that is getting knocked down for certain items in the next module).
Let's also not forget the other daily tasks that you used to get AD rewards for playing the game - from Lord Neverember and Rhix. Understandably some of those dailies went away with certain changes in the game (such as GG PVE half hour getting nixed completely from the game, or the skirmish hour which was an awesome way to get AD on a short time schedule) but it was nice to get an additional influx of AD when completing 2-4 foundy quests a day, 2-4 skirmishes a day etc. etc. Those meant if I didn't have a ton of time to play (say only a hour or so at most depending on work schedules) I could still get an additional 1-2K AD for getting in a couple quick 15 minute foundries without getting sucked into an hour long dungeon run or PVP match. Then those got nixed and replaced with what we have in place now.
Then the invoking change - the first invoke used to give the most amount of AD so if I couldn't play all day I still got a decent enough amount of AD that I wasn't a thousand miles behind all my guild-mates and every day players, just a little but could catch up weekends. When that changed to the current system where you are rewarded the longer you play, it basically slowed my character progression to a crawl.
Now I get that people can say that since my in-game time is limited I should just use my real-world currency and buy Zen to exchange for AD since I have the resource but not the time. However, this is not a solution to the AD problem.
By taking the raw AD handed out by invoking throughout the day out of the game in favor of a bonus system that again, rewards playing the game, it's making the gap between the casual/average player, and those that have been banking AD from day one from legitmate sources and otherwise, ever larger. Continuing to restrict the amount of AD a character can generate only increases the differences and squeezes a current players resources and makes a person very, very careful in choosing what to spend that AD on. With the constant changes in gear, weapons, enchant upgrades and now mount insignia bonsuses, it's extremely difficult to keep up, and just when you think you've got your plan boom! New module, new gear, new enchants and you have to start all over and now you've essentially wasted your AD.
Again, I get that if I have 4-6 hours to play I would max out my raw AD cap every day and be fine, but it shouldn't matter how many hours I have, if there is a refining AD cap it shouldn't take hours on end to hit that cap. If people are making AD too fast, lower the cap back to 24k to restrict the AD and stop reducing the amount your normal player can generate. It's killing player morale, destroying the economy, and only making those people that currently HAVE hoards of AD hold on to them even more since they're becoming an ever more valuable and scarce resource. Especially when combined with the VIP bonuses available. Those that have AD aren't going to go broke on a special AD sink that comes into the game because they're smart enough to recognize it for what it is. Those without AD are never going to be able to catch up.
Finally, to summarize, if you want people to actually play the game to earn AD, increase the amount you get from completeing dungeons, skirmishes, foundries, and weeklies to offset the decrease in non-active earning. There has to be balance, and a bonus for salvaging items that I have to work hours to get to replace 2 invokes (that are a lot less time!) is not an even trade.
The invoking changes feels like every time u reduce player's ad income sources, you are improving Botter's programming skills, their Bot AI more & more intelligentce.
What about the new bonus AD system and VIP? Will the system benefit from VIP (how?) or will the changes further devaluate VIP? Since there is no VIP on preview we cannot know.
AFAIK weekly campaign tasks already do not benefit from the VIP AD bonus. You just get 4500 rAD, regardless of having VIP or not.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Now, I would have no problem with these changes... if... BUT....
The player base has been whittled down so much to the point queues are so empty these days. People are at the mercy of queues popping so they can actually play content for ADs. Queue for pvp to get murdered? Not fun. PoM or Throne? The worst skirmishes ever. I mean, there's not much fun content to be had. A shame all the old epic dungeons didn't come back.... People might actually have fun again running content....
Baby dungeons are the only ones that reliably pop. They're awful, they're boring, they're less rewarding. Even there you're helping the botters, and are at the mercy of having to wait on them!
and what do you think the RP from leadership is doing exactly?
Actually, we think it has been much less impactful than expected. After an initial evaluation it is not worth touching the RP from Leadership especially since that is the benefit most propping the profession up at end game for now.
It seems the more improvements you try to make the worse the game is for it. I long for those fun days of old . Back when open beta first started and the game was sooo much more enjoyable. Maybe it's time to take a break.
Ehm... Earning ad by playing the game? But we had that. We had a working system back in old mods. Dungeons with good loot. Old Castle Never, old T2s, old GG. They did provide a decent amount of challenge (up to mods 4-5 anyway when gear/boons made them too easy) & a decent reward for your time. Gear y could sell, 100k marks etc. Sure leadership armies & bots were around but legit players could earn enough ad just by playing legit. Covering the rest with real money. Than mod 6 came and all that was taken away. Leadership was reworked. Now you are telling us to play the game to make AD? Well how about giving us reasons to? Sorry but a dungeon where bosses drop nothing most of the time no matter how hard they are & you end up with 3-4k raw ad worth salvage is an insult. A chance to get an artifact looks more like trolling at this point. Not to mention most of the quests in the game including boons dailies give you useless gold and no ad. With the current progress/ah prices? Common... Add decent stuff like epic/superior marks & gear & artifact to dungeon loot tables, to bosses loot tables, ad rewards to EVERY quest in game than we can talk about "earning ad by playing the game". Cause running the easiest dungeon/skirmish over9000 times for salvage & than the dailies for boons/sh progression is neither fun nor can be called a normal gameplay.
The reason we made this change was because was saw that Invocation was the largest source of AD that could be generated by not actually playing the game, this is not good. It was very apparent when comparing the PC numbers with what was happening on Xbox, VERY different playstyles but the vast difference between the two groups suggested this was a problem area.
The change we made will actually increase the amount of AD you would earn if combined with actual gameplay. You can even bank it for a week and play all on the weekend, you just have to do something to actually earn that AD now instead of having a bot army.
So once again those of us with limited time to play are getting punished because you cannot seem to figure out anyway of stopping botters. Wonderful strategy.
Some days I'm lucky to have time to log in, invoke 1x on my main and reset her professions tasks.
So now I guess I have no reason really to log in at all on those days, because "bonus AD" is worthless if you cannot claim it.
I'm starting to feel like you don't want people to play this game, which seems odd, as we pay the actual money you make.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
As i see, for some people preview threads is turned it to "Bees against honey"
Class balance made all my main alts(supporters OP/GF/DC) useless, new invocation system making not worth to log in and play many alts - expensive and BoP items, new mods/campaign...
All those "mods and events rush", "kill 1000 mobs quest" and fails with "new economy" make game absolutely not enjoyable.
I hope devs start to play their game one day, not just check the "average temperature in the hospital".
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
This more than anything else! If it stays as is I'm done with invoking and alts. Will delete all but my 2 HRs. No point in having alts anymore if you don't have time to play them.
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
and what do you think the RP from leadership is doing exactly?
Actually, we think it has been much less impactful than expected. After an initial evaluation it is not worth touching the RP from Leadership especially since that is the benefit most propping the profession up at end game for now.
Can we get this stickied please? So we can have something to refer to when the devs get their bait-and-switch on again
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
So after thinking about this, there could be an unintended benefit here to those players not running invocation armies.
For those who's main source of AD was invoking, you can now make more AD assuming you have items to salvage. If you're not actually playing the game, your best source of salvage fodder is the AH, where stuff regularly sells for at or under salvage value. Now, if you're running an invocation army, you'd only salvage with the bonus, meaning you're getting a 50% boost to the value of the pieces you salvage. But then if you're getting more for salvaging, then the price of salvageable gear on the AH will rise accordingly.
So for those players NOT running invocation armies, they should actually be able to get more AD for their loot drops than they would based on just salvage...and this is straight up AD, which is more valuable than rAD. For players who actually play the game, logging in, running dungeons or skirmishes, etc...this could actually be a big boost to their daily income.
It'll definitely be interesting to see how this plays out. I would imagine the market equilibrium is going to settle out on higher prices for salvageable gear on the AH, but not so much higher that it discourages invocation farms from buying it to salvage at the 50% bonus. But the limited supply in this equation is the gear being sold by those who run dungeons, so they'll be the ones able to better dictate prices.
Apparently disagreeing with something equates you to being a bot. #BotsLivesMatter
That hashtag made me chuckle. Anyway, I could see this still working for me if the reset time of the "bonus pool" is long enough. Never reset would be best but I doubt they'd do that. Yearly, quarterly, even monthly could work. Weekly is questionable and daily is right out! @panderus made a comment about weekly but, as others have said, I'd like confirmation. Even if the answer is "we haven't decided the final reset time."
Nixon the TR
Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Anyway, I could see this still working for me if the reset time of the "bonus pool" is long enough. Never reset would be best but I doubt they'd do that. Yearly, quarterly, even monthly could work. Weekly is questionable and daily is right out! @panderus made a comment about weekly but, as others have said, I'd like confirmation. Even if the answer is "we haven't decided the final reset time."
What Panderus said can also be interpreted as letting the system work for "weekend warrior" types, and wasn't meant to indicate a reset. And I sincerely hope this is the case.
I don't see a lot of reason to not carry it forward indefinitely, aside from sheer cussedness. This means if you accumulate some bonus, but otherwise lack gaming time, you aren't pressured to use up your bonus before it expires and can simply hold it until a more opportune time. Then it rewards playing on your own schedule, and not Cryptic's.
I don't like the idea of this being a use-it-or-lose-it bonus. They did that with XP, but I grudgingly recognize that with XP bonus being able to accumulate unchecked, they were wrecking their own market for XP boosters.
If this isn't meant to be punitive to players with schedules that don't meet some ideal set by Cryptic, they won't reset it. People who have time to take advantage will, and people who don't can let it ride.
Edit: Invoking should still be on a shorter cycle, because not-robots.
Comments
So forget, progression, boons, quests and building a stronghold, all that unimportant stuff.. Just run dungeons and skirmishes and the weeklies you so graciously gave us when you guys burned us last time?..
And so much for alt friendly. Now it seems anything other then your main is a "bot army", very nice..
The "vast difference between the two groups suggested" that there is a ~2 year difference in the platforms, that's all..
They haven't been around long enough to have the alt.. I mean.. bot army we do.
Kudo's on achieving yet a new low..
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Also, as @beckylunatic said, reworking the invokes so we dont need to wait until we have done our 90 min/5th invoke (which takes 2.5-3 hours to get to) before we have the full days potential and can start earning AD would help.
Like running T1 and T2 dungeons and getting decent purple gear which I could either salvage, or sell for quite a bit of profit that allowed me to then buy the enchants and other items I needed, to again, progress my character. Then the dungeons disappeared and gear along with them. Now, we have some of those dungeons back and you get AD for completing 2 runs a day and (if you're lucky) a drop that you can salvage for a decent amount (although apparently now that is getting knocked down for certain items in the next module).
Let's also not forget the other daily tasks that you used to get AD rewards for playing the game - from Lord Neverember and Rhix. Understandably some of those dailies went away with certain changes in the game (such as GG PVE half hour getting nixed completely from the game, or the skirmish hour which was an awesome way to get AD on a short time schedule) but it was nice to get an additional influx of AD when completing 2-4 foundy quests a day, 2-4 skirmishes a day etc. etc. Those meant if I didn't have a ton of time to play (say only a hour or so at most depending on work schedules) I could still get an additional 1-2K AD for getting in a couple quick 15 minute foundries without getting sucked into an hour long dungeon run or PVP match. Then those got nixed and replaced with what we have in place now.
Then the invoking change - the first invoke used to give the most amount of AD so if I couldn't play all day I still got a decent enough amount of AD that I wasn't a thousand miles behind all my guild-mates and every day players, just a little but could catch up weekends. When that changed to the current system where you are rewarded the longer you play, it basically slowed my character progression to a crawl.
Now I get that people can say that since my in-game time is limited I should just use my real-world currency and buy Zen to exchange for AD since I have the resource but not the time. However, this is not a solution to the AD problem.
By taking the raw AD handed out by invoking throughout the day out of the game in favor of a bonus system that again, rewards playing the game, it's making the gap between the casual/average player, and those that have been banking AD from day one from legitmate sources and otherwise, ever larger. Continuing to restrict the amount of AD a character can generate only increases the differences and squeezes a current players resources and makes a person very, very careful in choosing what to spend that AD on. With the constant changes in gear, weapons, enchant upgrades and now mount insignia bonsuses, it's extremely difficult to keep up, and just when you think you've got your plan boom! New module, new gear, new enchants and you have to start all over and now you've essentially wasted your AD.
Again, I get that if I have 4-6 hours to play I would max out my raw AD cap every day and be fine, but it shouldn't matter how many hours I have, if there is a refining AD cap it shouldn't take hours on end to hit that cap. If people are making AD too fast, lower the cap back to 24k to restrict the AD and stop reducing the amount your normal player can generate. It's killing player morale, destroying the economy, and only making those people that currently HAVE hoards of AD hold on to them even more since they're becoming an ever more valuable and scarce resource. Especially when combined with the VIP bonuses available. Those that have AD aren't going to go broke on a special AD sink that comes into the game because they're smart enough to recognize it for what it is. Those without AD are never going to be able to catch up.
Finally, to summarize, if you want people to actually play the game to earn AD, increase the amount you get from completeing dungeons, skirmishes, foundries, and weeklies to offset the decrease in non-active earning. There has to be balance, and a bonus for salvaging items that I have to work hours to get to replace 2 invokes (that are a lot less time!) is not an even trade.
AFAIK weekly campaign tasks already do not benefit from the VIP AD bonus. You just get 4500 rAD, regardless of having VIP or not.
The player base has been whittled down so much to the point queues are so empty these days. People are at the mercy of queues popping so they can actually play content for ADs. Queue for pvp to get murdered? Not fun. PoM or Throne? The worst skirmishes ever. I mean, there's not much fun content to be had. A shame all the old epic dungeons didn't come back.... People might actually have fun again running content....
Baby dungeons are the only ones that reliably pop. They're awful, they're boring, they're less rewarding. Even there you're helping the botters, and are at the mercy of having to wait on them!
Maybe it's time to take a break.
Some days I'm lucky to have time to log in, invoke 1x on my main and reset her professions tasks.
So now I guess I have no reason really to log in at all on those days, because "bonus AD" is worthless if you cannot claim it.
I'm starting to feel like you don't want people to play this game, which seems odd, as we pay the actual money you make.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Class balance made all my main alts(supporters OP/GF/DC) useless, new invocation system making not worth to log in and play many alts - expensive and BoP items, new mods/campaign...
All those "mods and events rush", "kill 1000 mobs quest" and fails with "new economy" make game absolutely not enjoyable.
I hope devs start to play their game one day, not just check the "average temperature in the hospital".
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
For those who's main source of AD was invoking, you can now make more AD assuming you have items to salvage. If you're not actually playing the game, your best source of salvage fodder is the AH, where stuff regularly sells for at or under salvage value. Now, if you're running an invocation army, you'd only salvage with the bonus, meaning you're getting a 50% boost to the value of the pieces you salvage. But then if you're getting more for salvaging, then the price of salvageable gear on the AH will rise accordingly.
So for those players NOT running invocation armies, they should actually be able to get more AD for their loot drops than they would based on just salvage...and this is straight up AD, which is more valuable than rAD. For players who actually play the game, logging in, running dungeons or skirmishes, etc...this could actually be a big boost to their daily income.
It'll definitely be interesting to see how this plays out. I would imagine the market equilibrium is going to settle out on higher prices for salvageable gear on the AH, but not so much higher that it discourages invocation farms from buying it to salvage at the 50% bonus. But the limited supply in this equation is the gear being sold by those who run dungeons, so they'll be the ones able to better dictate prices.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I don't see a lot of reason to not carry it forward indefinitely, aside from sheer cussedness. This means if you accumulate some bonus, but otherwise lack gaming time, you aren't pressured to use up your bonus before it expires and can simply hold it until a more opportune time. Then it rewards playing on your own schedule, and not Cryptic's.
I don't like the idea of this being a use-it-or-lose-it bonus. They did that with XP, but I grudgingly recognize that with XP bonus being able to accumulate unchecked, they were wrecking their own market for XP boosters.
If this isn't meant to be punitive to players with schedules that don't meet some ideal set by Cryptic, they won't reset it. People who have time to take advantage will, and people who don't can let it ride.
Edit: Invoking should still be on a shorter cycle, because not-robots.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia