Guardian Fighter changes

amenar

If you haven't read the Upcoming powers/balance changes please go here to take a look: arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1214505/upcoming-powers-balance-changes

Here are the related patch notes:

Guardian Fighter

• Mark: No longer roots the user in place when activated. Can now be activated while blocking. Animation changed to work with this new functionality.
  
• Aggravating Strike & Shield Slam: The scaling on these powers was not updated when we added the 4th rank of powers. This has been updated, resulting in a slight damage increase for these 2 abilities.
  
• Aggravating Strike: Activation time reduced from 1.2s to 1s. This has increased the DPS of this power by ~20%. Note that this also means each individual hit generates slightly less AP, but the average AP generated over time is still roughly the same.
  
• Shield Slam: Activation time reduced from 1s to 0.9s. Damage increased ~14%. The combination of these 2 changes has increased the DPS of this power by ~27%. Note that this also means each individual hit generates slightly fewer Action Points, but the average AP generated over time is still roughly the same.
  
• Crushing Surge: Decreased the activation time of each of the 3 attacks in the combo. This has increased the DPS of the combo by ~16%. Note that this also means each individual hit generates slightly fewer Action Points, but the average AP generated over time is still roughly the same.
  
• Crushing Surge: Now heals on every swing of the attack. The first swing heals for 1/4 the amount of the final swing, and the second swing heals for 1/2 the amount of the final swing. Ranking this power up now also increases the healing value.
  
• Cleave: Decreased overall activation time of the combo from 2.41s to 2.25s. Increased the damage of the third hit by ~33%. The combination of these 2 changes has increased the DPS of this combo by ~20%. Note that this also means each individual hit generates slightly fewer Action Points, but the average AP generated over time is still roughly the same.
  
• Cleave: This power now has a cone area of effect, instead of a short cylinder. In addition, it no longer forces you to face a valid target, allowing you greater control over what you can hit with the power.
  
• Tide of Iron: Activation time reduced from 1.125s to 1s. This has increased the DPS of this power by ~12%. Note that this also means each individual hit generates slightly fewer Action Points, but the average AP generated over time is still roughly the same.
  
• Indomitable Strength: Now lowers the damage the target deals by 10% for 5s. Each rank increases this duration by 1s.
  
• Guardian Fighters will no longer receive a 20% damage buff for 1 second every 20 seconds.
  

klangeddin

Thank you very much. Can you do something about reducing Iron Warrior's activation time? It's a bit too slow...

scathias

amenar said:

Guardian Fighters will no longer receive a 20% damage buff for 1 second every 20 seconds.

Interesting changes. that change the GF mark is really nice.
What i am really interested in here is this 20% damage buff that GF got once every 20 seconds. I never knew about this, ever. I don't even recall hearing about this, ever.

klangeddin

scathias said:

amenar said:

Guardian Fighters will no longer receive a 20% damage buff for 1 second every 20 seconds.

Interesting changes. that change the GF mark is really nice.
What i am really interested in here is this 2% damage buff that GF got once every 20 seconds. I never knew about this, ever. I don't even recall hearing about this, ever.

Apparently, paladins had it too (its written in their patch notes as well).
It must have been an obscure bug that nobody really every noticed. (but it may have had a hand in those big PvP burst chains)

amenar

scathias said:

amenar said:

Guardian Fighters will no longer receive a 20% damage buff for 1 second every 20 seconds.

Interesting changes. that change the GF mark is really nice.
What i am really interested in here is this 20% damage buff that GF got once every 20 seconds. I never knew about this, ever. I don't even recall hearing about this, ever.

It was a bug, plain and simple. A low level class functionality power that both Guardian Fighters and Oathbound Paladins have that sets some base values had a damage setting that lasted 21 seconds and refreshed every 20 seconds - and it was set to stack, which is the default behavior. We have received feedback about some of the things this could do, but the most visible issue for players was that, if you watched your tooltips, you'd see your damage numbers increase by 20% for 1 second, then go back to normal.

argrosch

klangeddin said:

Thank you very much. Can you do something about reducing Iron Warrior's activation time? It's a bit too slow...

And Fighters Recovery too, please.

scathias said:

amenar said:

Guardian Fighters will no longer receive a 20% damage buff for 1 second every 20 seconds.

What i am really interested in here is this 20% damage buff that GF got once every 20 seconds. I never knew about this, ever. I don't even recall hearing about this, ever.

Me neither.

deathbeez

Couldn't wait till Monday?

klangeddin said:

Can you do something about reducing Iron Warrior's activation time? It's a bit too slow...

I've been playing GF main since mod 2. And IMO, fixing Iron Warrion's awful activation time should of been top of the list.
GF's at-will DPS has and always will suck. Buffing a bunch of at-wills isn't that big of a deal. I mean I welcome it, but I"m sure PvP'er that aren't GFs (see TRs) are going to complain and cry for nerfs.

"slightly fewer Action Points"
This has me worried. GF's need AP. Without steel defense, we're dead. I hope you guys get it right, no offense.

daaly

So considering finally returning to conq spec....oh how I've missed you.

cromejohnsen

Can one of the devs tell us whether the Into the Fray buff from the GF is supposed to only buff party members ?
Can it be changed so that everyone around the gf whether in your party or not is receiving the buff?

gankdalf

Hm shouldnt this class get a damage NERF? they can one rotate anyone in pvp?

deathbeez

deathbeez said:

I mean I welcome it, but I"m sure PvP'er that aren't GFs (see TRs) are going to complain and cry for nerfs.

LOL 3 posts later..that was fast.

klangeddin

ejziponken said:

Hm shouldnt this class get a damage NERF? they can one rotate anyone in pvp?

Probably that will come in next patch notes, but those changes here really don't affect PvP at all. What GF is seriously going to kill you with the at-wills? It's Luning Srike + Bull Rush doing the damage, and that's where the nerf will most likely go to. Also Into the Fray will likely be revised, it's too strong of a multiplier.

cromejohnsen

they really should stop doing any kind of class changes based on pvp. Thats not how it should be. Can one dev answer on my earlier posted question if possible?

juleadream

ejziponken said:

Hm shouldnt this class get a damage NERF? they can one rotate anyone in pvp?

No. GF does not need a nerf. If you are having trouble with that one-rotation kill (btw, GF is not the only class that can do that, and many other classes can ONE SHOT), then you need to learn to watch for the animations and react accordingly. If you want GF encounter damage nerfed, then I want GWF and TR damage nerfed for the same reasons.

adinosii

My GF really appreciates those changes....and maybe I will now start playing him again instead of using him just as a pack mule.

amenar

cromejohnsen said:

they really should stop doing any kind of class changes based on pvp. Thats not how it should be. Can one dev answer on my earlier posted question if possible?

While I realize these changes will obviously have impact on PvP (few changes don't) all of these changes were made because of PvE problems. Trivializing all Dungeons in the game was our main concern with these powers, not PvP balance. PvP has some serious issues, but we aren't trying to tackle that with these changes.

As for your Into The Fray question - it is intended to be party only. That could change, but as it stands right now, I don't think we'll be providing any buffs to ITF.

scathias

@amenar, how long will these changes be on preview before they go live? I both want these changes out ASAP, and i want you to wait a couple weeks for feedback and decent bug testing since you rarely have time to fix bugs we report on the week to week patch notes

micky1p00

Not a GF expert but the mark change looks promising.

klangeddin

micky1p00 said:

Not a GF expert but the mark change looks promising.

It's a nice change, but I honestly don't see it making that much of a difference, the activation time was very fast anyway.
I would have prefered to have our normal (not just the focused) mark not go away on received (non blocked) hits like the GWF one.

eion311

argrosch said:

klangeddin said:

Thank you very much. Can you do something about reducing Iron Warrior's activation time? It's a bit too slow...

And Fighters Recovery too, please.

??
Fighters Recovery is already a fast cast.

juleadream

eion311 said:

argrosch said:

klangeddin said:

Thank you very much. Can you do something about reducing Iron Warrior's activation time? It's a bit too slow...

And Fighters Recovery too, please.

??
Fighters Recovery is already a fast cast.

It's fast enough, I think. I wouldn't mind the cast time of Villain's Menace being reduced a bit though.

zibadawa

juleadream said:

watch for the animations and react accordingly.

You do realize that any pvp-er worth his salt, of which the one-rotation GFs are pretty much a proper subset, use animation cancellations and other such bugs to prevent you from seeing exactly these cues? Yes, they should definitely fix those, but the PvP horrorscape is vast, and fixing bug exploits like these still leaves insane burst damage that you mostly need precognition to avoid. Several of the attacks don't have much in the way of animation cues in the first place. Anvil of doom just hits you in a flash. There's no avoiding it with anything other than to act accordingly before it ever happens. A lot of their powers do damage pretty much instantly, and then leave the GF in a short animation sequence where he may or may not be able to do anything, depending on the tricks he's abusing.

scathias

zibadawa said:

juleadream said:

watch for the animations and react accordingly.

You do realize that any pvp-er worth his salt, of which the one-rotation GFs are pretty much a proper subset, use animation cancellations and other such bugs to prevent you from seeing exactly these cues? Yes, they should definitely fix those, but the PvP horrorscape is vast, and fixing bug exploits like these still leaves insane burst damage that you mostly need precognition to avoid. Several of the attacks don't have much in the way of animation cues in the first place. Anvil of doom just hits you in a flash. There's no avoiding it with anything other than to act accordingly before it ever happens. A lot of their powers do damage pretty much instantly, and then leave the GF in a short animation sequence where he may or may not be able to do anything, depending on the tricks he's abusing.

I would not call animation canceling an exploit. That is a widely recognized mechanic in every real time game ever. Some skills you can't cancel the animation, by design. Others you can

juleadream

zibadawa said:

juleadream said:

watch for the animations and react accordingly.

You do realize that any pvp-er worth his salt, of which the one-rotation GFs are pretty much a proper subset, use animation cancellations and other such bugs to prevent you from seeing exactly these cues? Yes, they should definitely fix those, but the PvP horrorscape is vast, and fixing bug exploits like these still leaves insane burst damage that you mostly need precognition to avoid. Several of the attacks don't have much in the way of animation cues in the first place. Anvil of doom just hits you in a flash. There's no avoiding it with anything other than to act accordingly before it ever happens. A lot of their powers do damage pretty much instantly, and then leave the GF in a short animation sequence where he may or may not be able to do anything, depending on the tricks he's abusing.

Precognition... like avoiding a stealthed Lashing Blade?

BTW, Anvil of Doom has a very obvious animation before it hits... having used it as a standard in my rotation, I can assure you that you can see it coming.

Once again, GFs are NOT the only class that can one-rotation, or ONE-SHOT other players. If GFs (you know, the class that normally is only just ahead of the healer in Paingiver charts) is to be nerfed, then TR needs to be nerfed, so does GWF, so does CW...

urabask

juleadream said:

zibadawa said:

juleadream said:

watch for the animations and react accordingly.

You do realize that any pvp-er worth his salt, of which the one-rotation GFs are pretty much a proper subset, use animation cancellations and other such bugs to prevent you from seeing exactly these cues? Yes, they should definitely fix those, but the PvP horrorscape is vast, and fixing bug exploits like these still leaves insane burst damage that you mostly need precognition to avoid. Several of the attacks don't have much in the way of animation cues in the first place. Anvil of doom just hits you in a flash. There's no avoiding it with anything other than to act accordingly before it ever happens. A lot of their powers do damage pretty much instantly, and then leave the GF in a short animation sequence where he may or may not be able to do anything, depending on the tricks he's abusing.

Precognition... like avoiding a stealthed Lashing Blade?

BTW, Anvil of Doom has a very obvious animation before it hits... having used it as a standard in my rotation, I can assure you that you can see it coming.

Once again, GFs are NOT the only class that can one-rotation, or ONE-SHOT other players. If GFs (you know, the class that normally is only just ahead of the healer in Paingiver charts) is to be nerfed, then TR needs to be nerfed, so does GWF, so does CW...

CWs already just got nerfed into the ground : \

No nerfs should be aimed at PvP until they decide they want to fix PvP as a whole.

juleadream

urabask said:

juleadream said:

zibadawa said:

juleadream said:

watch for the animations and react accordingly.

You do realize that any pvp-er worth his salt, of which the one-rotation GFs are pretty much a proper subset, use animation cancellations and other such bugs to prevent you from seeing exactly these cues? Yes, they should definitely fix those, but the PvP horrorscape is vast, and fixing bug exploits like these still leaves insane burst damage that you mostly need precognition to avoid. Several of the attacks don't have much in the way of animation cues in the first place. Anvil of doom just hits you in a flash. There's no avoiding it with anything other than to act accordingly before it ever happens. A lot of their powers do damage pretty much instantly, and then leave the GF in a short animation sequence where he may or may not be able to do anything, depending on the tricks he's abusing.

Precognition... like avoiding a stealthed Lashing Blade?

BTW, Anvil of Doom has a very obvious animation before it hits... having used it as a standard in my rotation, I can assure you that you can see it coming.

Once again, GFs are NOT the only class that can one-rotation, or ONE-SHOT other players. If GFs (you know, the class that normally is only just ahead of the healer in Paingiver charts) is to be nerfed, then TR needs to be nerfed, so does GWF, so does CW...

CWs already just got nerfed into the ground : \

No nerfs should be aimed at PvP until they decide they want to fix PvP as a whole.

Meh... they should simply take PvP out back and put 3 bullets in it. Waste of server resouces.

beckylunatic

micky1p00 said:

Not a GF expert but the mark change looks promising.

I appreciate the concept of being able to mark target while both moving and blocking, but if you play through either the Arc client or Steam (iirc), hitting shift and tab at the same time brings up a social interface.

Or maybe I'm the only idiot who has ever done that by accident in frenzied combat (pro tip: it doesn't help).

scathias

beckylunatic said:

micky1p00 said:

Not a GF expert but the mark change looks promising.

I appreciate the concept of being able to mark target while both moving and blocking, but if you play through either the Arc client or Steam (iirc), hitting shift and tab at the same time brings up a social interface.

Or maybe I'm the only idiot who has ever done that by accident in frenzied combat (pro tip: it doesn't help).

you can change the key combo in arc for what brings this up. i have mine as alt+P for the last 2 years since i learned about it

hypervoreian

amenar said:

While I realize these changes will obviously have impact on PvP (few changes don't) all of these changes were made because of PvE problems. Trivializing all Dungeons in the game was our main concern with these powers, not PvP balance. PvP has some serious issues, but we aren't trying to tackle that with these changes.

As for your Into The Fray question - it is intended to be party only. That could change, but as it stands right now, I don't think we'll be providing any buffs to ITF.

^^^^^^
\o/ +1

-----------------------

As for the changes they are good.Faster animations was and is the bane of Gf class since beta.
The spesific changes are fine.

I am slightly worrying about the Indomitable Streangth buff though.It is great addition and well thought.But...GFs are hated though cause of pvp ,this change might fuel the hatred.My opinion is to let it pass and not buff this daily .Cause this daily is not used in pve but mostly on pvp.So in the end,it will benefit not the PVE Gfs ,but the pvp ones.My opinion is negative for this one.

A lot of other things instead can slightly buff the pve tankiness of the PVE Gf,leaving untouched its pvp effectiveness.As mentioned before the animation time of Iron Warrior is one.Great encounter fine as it is,but too slow to use.
Villain's menace also can use slighter faster animations.And it's threat generation (not damage) could use a buff.



We are waiting for these changes to go live!
Cleave change to aoe seems very promising for pve and for threat generation.Nice!

Unknown

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beckylunatic

scathias said:

beckylunatic said:

micky1p00 said:

Not a GF expert but the mark change looks promising.

I appreciate the concept of being able to mark target while both moving and blocking, but if you play through either the Arc client or Steam (iirc), hitting shift and tab at the same time brings up a social interface.

Or maybe I'm the only idiot who has ever done that by accident in frenzied combat (pro tip: it doesn't help).

you can change the key combo in arc for what brings this up. i have mine as alt+P for the last 2 years since i learned about it

Aha! Thank you!