Thank you very much. Can you do something about reducing Iron Warrior's activation time? It's a bit too slow...
I echo this too. It's too slow and dangerous to use at the current state when we actually need it.
Also can you consider a HP buff? we get a bonus to CON, but because of the way +HP works now where a overwhelming majority comes from gear, our bonus is minimal.
Even with 150k a gf get one shotted on dragonflights even with shield up.
The other alternative which would work fine is to make iron warrior's DR bonus to be factored in after our own mitigation (so not effected by DR cap).
they really should stop doing any kind of class changes based on pvp. Thats not how it should be. Can one dev answer on my earlier posted question if possible?
While I realize these changes will obviously have impact on PvP (few changes don't) all of these changes were made because of PvE problems. Trivializing all Dungeons in the game was our main concern with these powers, not PvP balance. PvP has some serious issues, but we aren't trying to tackle that with these changes.
As for your Into The Fray question - it is intended to be party only. That could change, but as it stands right now, I don't think we'll be providing any buffs to ITF.
For pve these changes are great and well needed. As is Pally are almost always a better choice to bring in dung.
However for PvP, I hope you all are taking a look at how GFs are currently performing. I won't go into everything as there have been some great threads in the actually pvp forums about them.
I just hope someone there is noticing and we see more changes coming soon
hi im a full pve gf and would like to know if our agro can be increased becouse a 2.6 pally or lower can out agro my 3.9 gf machine with means im not the tank ( some more agro would be great )
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aimeesellersMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 342Arc User
hi im a full pve gf and would like to know if our agro can be increased becouse a 2.6 pally or lower can out agro my 3.9 gf machine with means im not the tank ( some more agro would be great )
3.6K GF here... and I have yet to party with an OP that can out agro me. Threat is something you build for. What IS annoying though are those @(*&#^$ tank pets... they are horrible in parties with a tank in them. They can steal agro from anything.
I wish the activation time of Villain's Menace was reduced. Or - even better - let the CC immunity start earlier. It is annoying to see a red area, active the daily and yet get kicked to the ground because I was some milliseconds too late.
In reality the change to Indomitable Strike is going to mean a lot more to GWF who spec IV (so most PVP GWFs in other words) because Indomitable Strike is a very much used daily for them. (yes, IV GWF do get this buffed version of Indomitable Strike)
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Hm shouldnt this class get a damage NERF? they can one rotate anyone in pvp?
No. GF does not need a nerf. If you are having trouble with that one-rotation kill (btw, GF is not the only class that can do that, and many other classes can ONE SHOT), then you need to learn to watch for the animations and react accordingly. If you want GF encounter damage nerfed, then I want GWF and TR damage nerfed for the same reasons.
Precisely. They all have it coming.
And the problem with the one-rotation kill is that once it's started, it doesn't matter whether you're looking for the animations. Prones aren't mitigated by control resistance. Fox Shift (for instance) fails to dodge them.
It's just faceroll 3-button "I win with no skill" combo.
So powers such as fox shift and marauder's escape should provide dodges to control effects. The control durations should be subject to mitigation so that the combo can be interrupted. And the instantaneous animations for huge damage powers should be stretched out. A quick way to balance pvp would be that long animations = high damage, short animations - low damage.
Into the Fray, Knight's Challenge, Bull Charge and Anvil of Doom are all overpowered. The buff from ITF needs a low hard cap.
Tanks are mostly not needed at endgame(edemo needs only 1,Dungeons can be done with companions,Tiamat never needed tanks).Most of endgame GFs will either leave their characters or turn them to DPS build if they put this on a cap like 60-80% or so.I mean I am going to.I started getting my GWF in order when I heard people screaming about ITF
Hm shouldnt this class get a damage NERF? they can one rotate anyone in pvp?
No. GF does not need a nerf. If you are having trouble with that one-rotation kill (btw, GF is not the only class that can do that, and many other classes can ONE SHOT), then you need to learn to watch for the animations and react accordingly. If you want GF encounter damage nerfed, then I want GWF and TR damage nerfed for the same reasons.
Precisely. They all have it coming.
And the problem with the one-rotation kill is that once it's started, it doesn't matter whether you're looking for the animations. Prones aren't mitigated by control resistance. Fox Shift (for instance) fails to dodge them.
It's just faceroll 3-button "I win with no skill" combo.
So powers such as fox shift and marauder's escape should provide dodges to control effects. The control durations should be subject to mitigation so that the combo can be interrupted. And the instantaneous animations for huge damage powers should be stretched out. A quick way to balance pvp would be that long animations = high damage, short animations - low damage.
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See, that I can agree with. Rather than nerf the powers in that combo, provide classes with the means to counter it -provided they have the skill to USE those counters. Take as another example, the aforementioned stealthed Lashing Blade. On my own TR at least, entering stealth puts my crit chance at 167% and resist ignored at over 90%... recepie for a one-shot kill. Instead of nerfing the damage from Lashing Blade, or making the bonus from stealth worthless, a brief window of opportunity to dodge before it hits would be sufficient - stealth drops, the TR becomes visible, and if you have the skill, you can block or dodge in time. If not - you die.
"balance" in PvP is not about all classes being "equal"... it is about all classes having strengths and weaknesses; each class having it's natural foil. Balancing PvP around that philosophy will bring TRUE balance, much more so than simply "it's OP, nerf it" ever will.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
they really should stop doing any kind of class changes based on pvp. Thats not how it should be. Can one dev answer on my earlier posted question if possible?
While I realize these changes will obviously have impact on PvP (few changes don't) all of these changes were made because of PvE problems. Trivializing all Dungeons in the game was our main concern with these powers, not PvP balance. PvP has some serious issues, but we aren't trying to tackle that with these changes.
As for your Into The Fray question - it is intended to be party only. That could change, but as it stands right now, I don't think we'll be providing any buffs to ITF.
Lot of good changes , as @hypervoreian mentioned some encounter's and dalys need some sorter casting/animation time .
About pvp the "huge lol set nerf" will affect GF dmg in pvp as well cuz almost 30 % of they brust dmg come from lol set don"t forget this to. Also the 20 % more dmg i go away to this and lol set will lower down the brust dmg.
Mark: No longer roots the user in place when activated. Can now be activated while blocking. Animation changed to work with this new functionality.
Aggravating Strike & Shield Slam: The scaling on these powers was not updated when we added the 4th rank of powers. This has been updated, resulting in a slight damage increase for these 2 abilities.
Aggravating Strike: Activation time reduced from 1.2s to 1s. This has increased the DPS of this power by ~20%. Note that this also means each individual hit generates slightly less AP, but the average AP generated over time is still roughly the same.
Shield Slam: Activation time reduced from 1s to 0.9s. Damage increased ~14%. The combination of these 2 changes has increased the DPS of this power by ~27%. Note that this also means each individual hit generates slightly fewer Action Points, but the average AP generated over time is still roughly the same.
Crushing Surge: Decreased the activation time of each of the 3 attacks in the combo. This has increased the DPS of the combo by ~16%. Note that this also means each individual hit generates slightly fewer Action Points, but the average AP generated over time is still roughly the same.
Crushing Surge: Now heals on every swing of the attack. The first swing heals for 1/4 the amount of the final swing, and the second swing heals for 1/2 the amount of the final swing. Ranking this power up now also increases the healing value.
Cleave: Decreased overall activation time of the combo from 2.41s to 2.25s. Increased the damage of the third hit by ~33%. The combination of these 2 changes has increased the DPS of this combo by ~20%. Note that this also means each individual hit generates slightly fewer Action Points, but the average AP generated over time is still roughly the same.
Cleave: This power now has a cone area of effect, instead of a short cylinder. In addition, it no longer forces you to face a valid target, allowing you greater control over what you can hit with the power.
Tide of Iron: Activation time reduced from 1.125s to 1s. This has increased the DPS of this power by ~12%. Note that this also means each individual hit generates slightly fewer Action Points, but the average AP generated over time is still roughly the same.
Indomitable Strength: Now lowers the damage the target deals by 10% for 5s. Each rank increases this duration by 1s.
Guardian Fighters will no longer receive a 20% damage buff for 1 second every 20 seconds.
Thats all fine but you need to nerf the x2 damage of some skills and the dps of GF in general. GFs always had more dps then paladins and better buffs, now that you are nerfing paladins you need to nerf GF dps.
You do realize that any pvp-er worth his salt, of which the one-rotation GFs are pretty much a proper subset, use animation cancellations and other such bugs to prevent you from seeing exactly these cues? Yes, they should definitely fix those, but the PvP horrorscape is vast, and fixing bug exploits like these still leaves insane burst damage that you mostly need precognition to avoid. Several of the attacks don't have much in the way of animation cues in the first place. Anvil of doom just hits you in a flash. There's no avoiding it with anything other than to act accordingly before it ever happens. A lot of their powers do damage pretty much instantly, and then leave the GF in a short animation sequence where he may or may not be able to do anything, depending on the tricks he's abusing.
Precognition... like avoiding a stealthed Lashing Blade?
BTW, Anvil of Doom has a very obvious animation before it hits... having used it as a standard in my rotation, I can assure you that you can see it coming.
Once again, GFs are NOT the only class that can one-rotation, or ONE-SHOT other players. If GFs (you know, the class that normally is only just ahead of the healer in Paingiver charts) is to be nerfed, then TR needs to be nerfed, so does GWF, so does CW...
Yes but in general this fix was about Paladins vs. GF, and if Paladins get a defensive nerf then GFs need a dps nerf. Otherwise Paladins need a dps buff.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
You do realize that any pvp-er worth his salt, of which the one-rotation GFs are pretty much a proper subset, use animation cancellations and other such bugs to prevent you from seeing exactly these cues? Yes, they should definitely fix those, but the PvP horrorscape is vast, and fixing bug exploits like these still leaves insane burst damage that you mostly need precognition to avoid. Several of the attacks don't have much in the way of animation cues in the first place. Anvil of doom just hits you in a flash. There's no avoiding it with anything other than to act accordingly before it ever happens. A lot of their powers do damage pretty much instantly, and then leave the GF in a short animation sequence where he may or may not be able to do anything, depending on the tricks he's abusing.
Precognition... like avoiding a stealthed Lashing Blade?
BTW, Anvil of Doom has a very obvious animation before it hits... having used it as a standard in my rotation, I can assure you that you can see it coming.
Once again, GFs are NOT the only class that can one-rotation, or ONE-SHOT other players. If GFs (you know, the class that normally is only just ahead of the healer in Paingiver charts) is to be nerfed, then TR needs to be nerfed, so does GWF, so does CW...
Yes but in general this fix was about Paladins vs. GF, and if Paladins get a defensive nerf then GFs need a dps nerf. Otherwise Paladins need a dps buff.
GF got 35% dmg nerf overall !
Almost all conq GF use hoard(lol) set -the 20 % dmg buff go away . Prot and tact GF dont have dmg ..
You do realize that any pvp-er worth his salt, of which the one-rotation GFs are pretty much a proper subset, use animation cancellations and other such bugs to prevent you from seeing exactly these cues? Yes, they should definitely fix those, but the PvP horrorscape is vast, and fixing bug exploits like these still leaves insane burst damage that you mostly need precognition to avoid. Several of the attacks don't have much in the way of animation cues in the first place. Anvil of doom just hits you in a flash. There's no avoiding it with anything other than to act accordingly before it ever happens. A lot of their powers do damage pretty much instantly, and then leave the GF in a short animation sequence where he may or may not be able to do anything, depending on the tricks he's abusing.
Precognition... like avoiding a stealthed Lashing Blade?
BTW, Anvil of Doom has a very obvious animation before it hits... having used it as a standard in my rotation, I can assure you that you can see it coming.
Once again, GFs are NOT the only class that can one-rotation, or ONE-SHOT other players. If GFs (you know, the class that normally is only just ahead of the healer in Paingiver charts) is to be nerfed, then TR needs to be nerfed, so does GWF, so does CW...
Yes but in general this fix was about Paladins vs. GF, and if Paladins get a defensive nerf then GFs need a dps nerf. Otherwise Paladins need a dps buff.
This wasnt about Paladins VS GFs because both of them have very different build and roles.This was about Paladins being insane tanks and walkthrough nearly all dungeons by themselves while carrying their teams
First you need to do is nerf "Into The Fray", as it works incorrect providing up to 500% damage buff to GF and party. It should only take into account GF's own resist, but NOT DC's Astral Shield or other buffs.
This is the main cause of GF imbalance in PvP. GF-buffed TR shots me with 200k - you think it's correct?
P.S. I told you that the Coalescent Wards in the bar shop is a bad idea, but who listened?
First you need to do is nerf "Into The Fray", as it works incorrect providing up to 500% damage buff to GF and party. It should only take into account GF's own resist, but NOT DC's Astral Shield or other buffs.
This is the main cause of GF imbalance in PvP. GF-buffed TR shots me with 200k - you think it's correct?
P.S. I told you that the Coalescent Wards in the bar shop is a bad idea, but who listened?
Christ here we go again, PvP crybabies ready to ruin another aspect of PvE for everyone else.
Not a single nerf or buff on preview was aimed at PvP, and it never should be until PvP is overhauled completely.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
First you need to do is nerf "Into The Fray", as it works incorrect providing up to 500% damage buff to GF and party. It should only take into account GF's own resist, but NOT DC's Astral Shield or other buffs.
This is the main cause of GF imbalance in PvP. GF-buffed TR shots me with 200k - you think it's correct?
P.S. I told you that the Coalescent Wards in the bar shop is a bad idea, but who listened?
All i have to say is 2 owerload enchants GF w/o stamina are dead =dead GF no itf or burst . There is lot thing what we can cry about mbye the bonding 10/11/12 combination what gives x9stack(95+80+65x3 =720% boost) gifts =115k stat increase .
IF they fix those issues then we can talk about other things .
Its really easy to overnerf 1 class but i think(hope) the new GM want to do it step by step to watch the progress and perfomance of the class.
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
All I have to say about GF changes in pve is..."lol" A dps GF (like freya) already hits like a CW currently does, buffing them pushes them to the 2nd best striker class post changes, right behind SW. It isn't necessary at all. You want to compare 1 support class to another? Then why is GF going to do so much more damage than a CW?
First you need to do is nerf "Into The Fray", as it works incorrect providing up to 500% damage buff to GF and party. It should only take into account GF's own resist, but NOT DC's Astral Shield or other buffs.
This is the main cause of GF imbalance in PvP. GF-buffed TR shots me with 200k - you think it's correct?
P.S. I told you that the Coalescent Wards in the bar shop is a bad idea, but who listened?
Have you ever tested it effectively ? Astral shield (and most other buff) either augment the DR (and in formulae if i'm not wrong it's something like damage = (damage - BUFF DR) - CHAR DR <= that's why the OP daily where he take only 20% of damage, this damage are reduced by the DR of the OP ... If i'm not wrong ... but i remember seeing taking a 1,6M damage in this daily, 20% of it = 320k, the OP didn't have his temp hp half used so ... Maybe i'm wrong, i don't know but for me it seems that way ...) or taking less damage (same as before, the buff is calculated before DR) So from what i've seen so far, ITF buff is only based on GF's DR, the other thing is it boost other damage buff who give it some OP interraction ... Especially on lostmauth set ...
Well let's starts with theses change, see how it impact the game and then see if it was good or bad ...
PS : For pvp i know some will cry, but how many % of player effectively play pvp most of the time ? Not much ... So based changes on pvp is useless ... What they could (and should) do is make skills less effective in pvp (for every classes ...) It'll make pvp/pve balancing better, and if a skill is great in pve but still too powerfull in pvp, just change the pvp value to lower = no impact on pve player, and less cry from most player ... Just saying ... (and in fact it should not take too much work to add some code line per problematics skills ...)
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
All I have to say about GF changes in pve is..."lol" A dps GF (like freya) already hits like a CW currently does, buffing them pushes them to the 2nd best striker class post changes, right behind SW. It isn't necessary at all. You want to compare 1 support class to another? Then why is GF going to do so much more damage than a CW?
DPS like freya use bonding(bug) stones to boost her/his (power 40k this alone give 100% more dmg) (crit 15k) (armor pen 8k) (defense 20k= 40% dr boost gives also 40% more dmg from itf) + she/he use lol set(bug) and he also benifit from the curen 20% bonus dmg bug.
Take those away and he will loose around 170% dmg boost . Idc if he use it i dont care if somthing is bugged wai or not ,but for God sake pls dont ask nerf for somthing cuz items are bugged and do insane dmg.
All in one first fix the issues then talk b.s.
You cannot balance a class w/o knowing item issues .
All I have to say about GF changes in pve is..."lol" A dps GF (like freya) already hits like a CW currently does, buffing them pushes them to the 2nd best striker class post changes, right behind SW. It isn't necessary at all. You want to compare 1 support class to another? Then why is GF going to do so much more damage than a CW?
DPS like freya use bonding(bug) stones to boost her power 40k crit 15k defense 20k + he use lol set(bug) and he also benifit from the curen 20% bonus dmg bug.
Take those away and he will loose around 170% dmg boost .
All in one first fix the issues then talk b.s.
You cannot balance a class w/o knowing item issues .
Its so cute when you talk about someone whilst clearly not knowing them at all.
Firstly, freya does not using bondings, he uses an ioun stone, as he considers bonding stones an exploit, which can be seen in this video:
katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
How about making Into The Fray a non-mandatory power?
When will you learn that adding massive damage buffs to powers is terrible and does not solve the underlying problems (see also: GWF's Hidden Daggers)?
Comments
Also can you consider a HP buff? we get a bonus to CON, but because of the way +HP works now where a overwhelming majority comes from gear, our bonus is minimal.
Even with 150k a gf get one shotted on dragonflights even with shield up.
The other alternative which would work fine is to make iron warrior's DR bonus to be factored in after our own mitigation (so not effected by DR cap).
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
For pve these changes are great and well needed. As is Pally are almost always a better choice to bring in dung.
However for PvP, I hope you all are taking a look at how GFs are currently performing. I won't go into everything as there have been some great threads in the actually pvp forums about them.
I just hope someone there is noticing and we see more changes coming soon
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And the problem with the one-rotation kill is that once it's started, it doesn't matter whether you're looking for the animations. Prones aren't mitigated by control resistance. Fox Shift (for instance) fails to dodge them.
It's just faceroll 3-button "I win with no skill" combo.
So powers such as fox shift and marauder's escape should provide dodges to control effects. The control durations should be subject to mitigation so that the combo can be interrupted. And the instantaneous animations for huge damage powers should be stretched out. A quick way to balance pvp would be that long animations = high damage, short animations - low damage.
I dont mind the cap if they make ITF not party skill but AOE.They already announced that they dont think it is happening any time soon
See, that I can agree with. Rather than nerf the powers in that combo, provide classes with the means to counter it -provided they have the skill to USE those counters. Take as another example, the aforementioned stealthed Lashing Blade. On my own TR at least, entering stealth puts my crit chance at 167% and resist ignored at over 90%... recepie for a one-shot kill. Instead of nerfing the damage from Lashing Blade, or making the bonus from stealth worthless, a brief window of opportunity to dodge before it hits would be sufficient - stealth drops, the TR becomes visible, and if you have the skill, you can block or dodge in time. If not - you die.
"balance" in PvP is not about all classes being "equal"... it is about all classes having strengths and weaknesses; each class having it's natural foil. Balancing PvP around that philosophy will bring TRUE balance, much more so than simply "it's OP, nerf it" ever will.
About pvp the "huge lol set nerf" will affect GF dmg in pvp as well cuz almost 30 % of they brust dmg come from lol set don"t forget this to. Also the 20 % more dmg i go away to this and lol set will lower down the brust dmg.
Any way thnx for those buffs.
Almost all conq GF use hoard(lol) set -the 20 % dmg buff go away .
Prot and tact GF dont have dmg ..
It should only take into account GF's own resist, but NOT DC's Astral Shield or other buffs.
This is the main cause of GF imbalance in PvP. GF-buffed TR shots me with 200k - you think it's correct?
P.S. I told you that the Coalescent Wards in the bar shop is a bad idea, but who listened?
Bear. Vodka. Balalaika.
Not a single nerf or buff on preview was aimed at PvP, and it never should be until PvP is overhauled completely.
There is lot thing what we can cry about mbye the bonding 10/11/12 combination what gives x9stack(95+80+65x3 =720% boost) gifts =115k stat increase .
IF they fix those issues then we can talk about other things .
Its really easy to overnerf 1 class but i think(hope) the new GM want to do it step by step to watch the progress and perfomance of the class.
Well let's starts with theses change, see how it impact the game and then see if it was good or bad ...
PS : For pvp i know some will cry, but how many % of player effectively play pvp most of the time ? Not much ... So based changes on pvp is useless ... What they could (and should) do is make skills less effective in pvp (for every classes ...) It'll make pvp/pve balancing better, and if a skill is great in pve but still too powerfull in pvp, just change the pvp value to lower = no impact on pve player, and less cry from most player ... Just saying ... (and in fact it should not take too much work to add some code line per problematics skills ...)
Take those away and he will loose around 170% dmg boost .
Idc if he use it i dont care if somthing is bugged wai or not ,but for God sake pls dont ask nerf for somthing cuz items are bugged and do insane dmg.
All in one first fix the issues then talk b.s.
You cannot balance a class w/o knowing item issues .
Firstly, freya does not using bondings, he uses an ioun stone, as he considers bonding stones an exploit, which can be seen in this video:
Count the number of bonding procs next to his name, I will give you a clue, its 0.
So yeah...definitely bonding stones are the problem RIGHT?
When will you learn that adding massive damage buffs to powers is terrible and does not solve the underlying problems (see also: GWF's Hidden Daggers)?