There are 2 ends of the spectrum here pando, there is GWF, which people say gets too much from the set and then there is CW. CW gets more from the set then GWF in most cases % wise, but nobody is complaining a fully specced dps CW with the elol set is OP (I am referring to an SS thaum build), rather, CW's are called balanced. Not take away 40% of a balanced classes dps, you just destroyed the classes viability. How long does class balance take? How long as the SW gone without adjustment, how long did it take to get storm spell adjusted? How long will it take to get the CW FIXED once such a change is made (since it would be a fix, once they do less damage then every class except paladin). It would probably take as long as its taking all those other classes to be adjusted....you know....3/4 mods.
Also: reworking the set does not mean necessarily to "nerf it". Just change the way it works. For example, make it work unlinked from buffs and weapon damage, normalizing it so that on every class you get the same amount of DPS boost. I think that, as usual, this community is quite short-sighted and selfish.
Read the thread title. Would you like lostmauth set to be ADJUSTED.
As i explained, it's not a matter of "nerf". It's a matter of changing the way it works. Right now, it works and scales with 1)weapon damage and 2)damage buffs. This makes the set bonus very floaty and unpredictable. Which is bad. What i proposed it to rework it giving it X damage (not "weapon damage"), affected by crit severity but not by damage buffs.
Now, "X" can be ANY value needed to let CWs keep the needed boost, while reducing the impact it has on GWFs DPS.
Now, while CWs get more "% wise", it's also known that the set procs on GWFs are way higher. The % is just lower because the overall DPS is higher. Let's say a CW DPS output is 100k, with 40k eLoL procs, making it 40% of their total DPS. A GWF DPS output is 240k, with 80k procs, making it 30% of their overall DPS. Which is lower in %, but double in bonus value.
If you want to get same procs through GWFs nerf, you need to get them down from 240k to 120k. Which is too low considering they do not bring anything else to the group.
If you change the set to give 40k procs on every class, CWs deal the same overall DPS output, while GWFs lose 40k eLoL procs.
You go from a 240k-100k--->140k difference to a 200k-100k--->100k difference
Which is already a huge rebalance. Without eLoL set on both classes it would become 160k-60k--->100k. The same. Not floating. Predictable and balanced.
Now, assuming we want at least a 50% difference (random number) going from a DPS only primary striker, to a class that brings also CC-utility, to keep the DPS-only class "appealing" for PvE, what is left to do is balance the classes, now without eLoL procs creating confusion.
So you get the DPS output without eLoL, after a rebalance, changed to
CW= 60k GWF=90k
And with eLoL it's 100k vs 150k. Which is balanced. 120k, instead, is not balanced and nobody would call a GWF for a puny 20% more damage, when another class can also bring 100% more utility, CC or buffs/debuffs compared to the destroyer.
Well, this is what it looks like more or less, using numbers to illustrate what its like, the base line of 100 is GWF ATM: With the elol set as it is: 1) GWF: 100 2) SW: 94 3) HR: 71 4) TR/DC/GF/CW: 66 5) OP: 33
Thats an approximation and for GF, DC and OP I am going off of DPS GF's, DC's and OP's that I know. This is taken at a +/- similar item level. If the elol set did a fixed amount of damage for all classes, how the classes compare would still follow the same metric as if the set didn't exist, to maintain the same degree of balance, either the set needs to give more to some classes then others, or TR and CW need to be buffed with the nerfing/adjusting of the set. Here is a question for you, does the CW provide enough utility for it to do similar damage to an oathbound paladin, or would you rather just take that dps specced OP?
do you really want us to believe such a subjective summation of data, that´s, excuse me in advance, totally c.rap... I can show you data from a edemo run where a 3.2k GWF dealt 4x more damage than anyone else in the group, explantions? Do this in a T2 dungeon or a raid, where the mobs do not fall in one second running with a maxed group of player and every class can do long term damage on targets otherwise run that setup in elol with 1,8k green chars for example
No offense @schietindebux but although I have never ran with you, I know good SW's who have and they call you "below average to average at best". SW is a class that has a much higher skill requirement then GWF, it can achieve similar results as a GWF, but it rarely occurs because most SW's are bad. GWF in contrast, doesn't require nearly as much skill to achieve those levels of dps, which means that you see it more often. Furthermore, there are likely more GWF's in the community then SW's, so you see them more often, which means you get beaten by them more often.
no offence to them , name them and I will answer, because thats´s for sure an offence born out of your small sight of NWO, running premades all time we can do runs for sure, pm me in game, I run a templock PVP setup atm , but do not fear to compete, just do an edemo an elol and some more Quallo in game handle is the same, show me your skill the only warlock btw i did a testrun was btfw, in the end I did more than good, but tbh I never run with any other warlocks so far doing testings and normally i pug , so I am curious about the names? who might that be? so waiting for your invite
I will invite after my daily elol runs (I am about half way through), we can do eCC or something. I don't have any SW's online on my FL atm so you won't be able to compare youself to them, but you will be able to compare yourself to me or my friends if you like. One of the SW's who said that about you was your guildie Orion/Daigotsu/Whatever he is calling himself now (I swear he has a different name every time I check my fl).
interesting, so you say my guild leader calls me a bad performig warlock.... i hardly can believe what you say, because normally he is more a diplomatic type, never offending like I do
Well, a while ago I asked him, "Is @schietindebux a good warlock" as you posted a lot on the SW forums and his response was "He is average at best, nothing amazing". TBH, the best warlock I know is fernu, I have ran with him once or twice only, but he is far better then any other lock I know.
There are 2 ends of the spectrum here pando, there is GWF, which people say gets too much from the set and then there is CW. CW gets more from the set then GWF in most cases % wise, but nobody is complaining a fully specced dps CW with the elol set is OP (I am referring to an SS thaum build), rather, CW's are called balanced. Not take away 40% of a balanced classes dps, you just destroyed the classes viability. How long does class balance take? How long as the SW gone without adjustment, how long did it take to get storm spell adjusted? How long will it take to get the CW FIXED once such a change is made (since it would be a fix, once they do less damage then every class except paladin). It would probably take as long as its taking all those other classes to be adjusted....you know....3/4 mods.
Also: reworking the set does not mean necessarily to "nerf it". Just change the way it works. For example, make it work unlinked from buffs and weapon damage, normalizing it so that on every class you get the same amount of DPS boost. I think that, as usual, this community is quite short-sighted and selfish.
Read the thread title. Would you like lostmauth set to be ADJUSTED.
As i explained, it's not a matter of "nerf". It's a matter of changing the way it works. Right now, it works and scales with 1)weapon damage and 2)damage buffs. This makes the set bonus very floaty and unpredictable. Which is bad. What i proposed it to rework it giving it X damage (not "weapon damage"), affected by crit severity but not by damage buffs.
Now, "X" can be ANY value needed to let CWs keep the needed boost, while reducing the impact it has on GWFs DPS.
Now, while CWs get more "% wise", it's also known that the set procs on GWFs are way higher. The % is just lower because the overall DPS is higher. Let's say a CW DPS output is 100k, with 40k eLoL procs, making it 40% of their total DPS. A GWF DPS output is 240k, with 80k procs, making it 30% of their overall DPS. Which is lower in %, but double in bonus value.
If you want to get same procs through GWFs nerf, you need to get them down from 240k to 120k. Which is too low considering they do not bring anything else to the group.
If you change the set to give 40k procs on every class, CWs deal the same overall DPS output, while GWFs lose 40k eLoL procs.
You go from a 240k-100k--->140k difference to a 200k-100k--->100k difference
Which is already a huge rebalance. Without eLoL set on both classes it would become 160k-60k--->100k. The same. Not floating. Predictable and balanced.
Now, assuming we want at least a 50% difference (random number) going from a DPS only primary striker, to a class that brings also CC-utility, to keep the DPS-only class "appealing" for PvE, what is left to do is balance the classes, now without eLoL procs creating confusion.
So you get the DPS output without eLoL, after a rebalance, changed to
CW= 60k GWF=90k
And with eLoL it's 100k vs 150k. Which is balanced. 120k, instead, is not balanced and nobody would call a GWF for a puny 20% more damage, when another class can also bring 100% more utility, CC or buffs/debuffs compared to the destroyer.
Well, this is what it looks like more or less, using numbers to illustrate what its like, the base line of 100 is GWF ATM: With the elol set as it is: 1) GWF: 100 2) SW: 94 3) HR: 71 4) TR/DC/GF/CW: 66 5) OP: 33
Thats an approximation and for GF, DC and OP I am going off of DPS GF's, DC's and OP's that I know. This is taken at a +/- similar item level. If the elol set did a fixed amount of damage for all classes, how the classes compare would still follow the same metric as if the set didn't exist, to maintain the same degree of balance, either the set needs to give more to some classes then others, or TR and CW need to be buffed with the nerfing/adjusting of the set. Here is a question for you, does the CW provide enough utility for it to do similar damage to an oathbound paladin, or would you rather just take that dps specced OP?
do you really want us to believe such a subjective summation of data, that´s, excuse me in advance, totally c.rap... I can show you data from a edemo run where a 3.2k GWF dealt 4x more damage than anyone else in the group, explantions? Do this in a T2 dungeon or a raid, where the mobs do not fall in one second running with a maxed group of player and every class can do long term damage on targets otherwise run that setup in elol with 1,8k green chars for example
No offense @schietindebux but although I have never ran with you, I know good SW's who have and they call you "below average to average at best". SW is a class that has a much higher skill requirement then GWF, it can achieve similar results as a GWF, but it rarely occurs because most SW's are bad. GWF in contrast, doesn't require nearly as much skill to achieve those levels of dps, which means that you see it more often. Furthermore, there are likely more GWF's in the community then SW's, so you see them more often, which means you get beaten by them more often.
no offence to them , name them and I will answer, because thats´s for sure an offence born out of your small sight of NWO, running premades all time we can do runs for sure, pm me in game, I run a templock PVP setup atm , but do not fear to compete, just do an edemo an elol and some more Quallo in game handle is the same, show me your skill the only warlock btw i did a testrun was btfw, in the end I did more than good, but tbh I never run with any other warlocks so far doing testings and normally i pug , so I am curious about the names? who might that be? so waiting for your invite
I will invite after my daily elol runs (I am about half way through), we can do eCC or something. I don't have any SW's online on my FL atm so you won't be able to compare youself to them, but you will be able to compare yourself to me or my friends if you like. One of the SW's who said that about you was your guildie Orion/Daigotsu/Whatever he is calling himself now (I swear he has a different name every time I check my fl).
interesting, so you say my guild leader calls me a bad performig warlock.... i hardly can believe what you say, because normally he is more a diplomatic type, never offending like I do
Well, a while ago I asked him, "Is @schietindebux a good warlock" as you posted a lot on the SW forums and his response was "He is average at best, nothing amazing". TBH, the best warlock I know is fernu, I have ran with him once or twice only, but he is far better then any other lock I know.
nice, we did two runs together in all that time MC and eToS, beside dragonfights in SH so now we do testing CW vs temptationlock, no buffood, I never use it
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
There are 2 ends of the spectrum here pando, there is GWF, which people say gets too much from the set and then there is CW. CW gets more from the set then GWF in most cases % wise, but nobody is complaining a fully specced dps CW with the elol set is OP (I am referring to an SS thaum build), rather, CW's are called balanced. Not take away 40% of a balanced classes dps, you just destroyed the classes viability. How long does class balance take? How long as the SW gone without adjustment, how long did it take to get storm spell adjusted? How long will it take to get the CW FIXED once such a change is made (since it would be a fix, once they do less damage then every class except paladin). It would probably take as long as its taking all those other classes to be adjusted....you know....3/4 mods.
Also: reworking the set does not mean necessarily to "nerf it". Just change the way it works. For example, make it work unlinked from buffs and weapon damage, normalizing it so that on every class you get the same amount of DPS boost. I think that, as usual, this community is quite short-sighted and selfish.
Read the thread title. Would you like lostmauth set to be ADJUSTED.
As i explained, it's not a matter of "nerf". It's a matter of changing the way it works. Right now, it works and scales with 1)weapon damage and 2)damage buffs. This makes the set bonus very floaty and unpredictable. Which is bad. What i proposed it to rework it giving it X damage (not "weapon damage"), affected by crit severity but not by damage buffs.
Now, "X" can be ANY value needed to let CWs keep the needed boost, while reducing the impact it has on GWFs DPS.
Now, while CWs get more "% wise", it's also known that the set procs on GWFs are way higher. The % is just lower because the overall DPS is higher. Let's say a CW DPS output is 100k, with 40k eLoL procs, making it 40% of their total DPS. A GWF DPS output is 240k, with 80k procs, making it 30% of their overall DPS. Which is lower in %, but double in bonus value.
If you want to get same procs through GWFs nerf, you need to get them down from 240k to 120k. Which is too low considering they do not bring anything else to the group.
If you change the set to give 40k procs on every class, CWs deal the same overall DPS output, while GWFs lose 40k eLoL procs.
You go from a 240k-100k--->140k difference to a 200k-100k--->100k difference
Which is already a huge rebalance. Without eLoL set on both classes it would become 160k-60k--->100k. The same. Not floating. Predictable and balanced.
Now, assuming we want at least a 50% difference (random number) going from a DPS only primary striker, to a class that brings also CC-utility, to keep the DPS-only class "appealing" for PvE, what is left to do is balance the classes, now without eLoL procs creating confusion.
So you get the DPS output without eLoL, after a rebalance, changed to
CW= 60k GWF=90k
And with eLoL it's 100k vs 150k. Which is balanced. 120k, instead, is not balanced and nobody would call a GWF for a puny 20% more damage, when another class can also bring 100% more utility, CC or buffs/debuffs compared to the destroyer.
Well, this is what it looks like more or less, using numbers to illustrate what its like, the base line of 100 is GWF ATM: With the elol set as it is: 1) GWF: 100 2) SW: 94 3) HR: 71 4) TR/DC/GF/CW: 66 5) OP: 33
Thats an approximation and for GF, DC and OP I am going off of DPS GF's, DC's and OP's that I know. This is taken at a +/- similar item level. If the elol set did a fixed amount of damage for all classes, how the classes compare would still follow the same metric as if the set didn't exist, to maintain the same degree of balance, either the set needs to give more to some classes then others, or TR and CW need to be buffed with the nerfing/adjusting of the set. Here is a question for you, does the CW provide enough utility for it to do similar damage to an oathbound paladin, or would you rather just take that dps specced OP?
do you really want us to believe such a subjective summation of data, that´s, excuse me in advance, totally c.rap... I can show you data from a edemo run where a 3.2k GWF dealt 4x more damage than anyone else in the group, explantions? Do this in a T2 dungeon or a raid, where the mobs do not fall in one second running with a maxed group of player and every class can do long term damage on targets otherwise run that setup in elol with 1,8k green chars for example
No offense @schietindebux but although I have never ran with you, I know good SW's who have and they call you "below average to average at best". SW is a class that has a much higher skill requirement then GWF, it can achieve similar results as a GWF, but it rarely occurs because most SW's are bad. GWF in contrast, doesn't require nearly as much skill to achieve those levels of dps, which means that you see it more often. Furthermore, there are likely more GWF's in the community then SW's, so you see them more often, which means you get beaten by them more often.
no offence to them , name them and I will answer, because thats´s for sure an offence born out of your small sight of NWO, running premades all time we can do runs for sure, pm me in game, I run a templock PVP setup atm , but do not fear to compete, just do an edemo an elol and some more Quallo in game handle is the same, show me your skill the only warlock btw i did a testrun was btfw, in the end I did more than good, but tbh I never run with any other warlocks so far doing testings and normally i pug , so I am curious about the names? who might that be? so waiting for your invite
I will invite after my daily elol runs (I am about half way through), we can do eCC or something. I don't have any SW's online on my FL atm so you won't be able to compare youself to them, but you will be able to compare yourself to me or my friends if you like. One of the SW's who said that about you was your guildie Orion/Daigotsu/Whatever he is calling himself now (I swear he has a different name every time I check my fl).
interesting, so you say my guild leader calls me a bad performig warlock.... i hardly can believe what you say, because normally he is more a diplomatic type, never offending like I do
Well, a while ago I asked him, "Is @schietindebux a good warlock" as you posted a lot on the SW forums and his response was "He is average at best, nothing amazing". TBH, the best warlock I know is fernu, I have ran with him once or twice only, but he is far better then any other lock I know.
nice, we did two runs together in all that time MC and eToS, beside dragonfights in SH so now we do testing CW vs temptationlock, no buffood, I never use it
Ok, sure I am up for testing anything, bear in mind I consider myself an average CW though as well, so it will be a fair comparison CW's like freedom, Agathe Beaur and that guy with the name I cannot spell (amazing MoF) are better then me though.
There are 2 ends of the spectrum here pando, there is GWF, which people say gets too much from the set and then there is CW. CW gets more from the set then GWF in most cases % wise, but nobody is complaining a fully specced dps CW with the elol set is OP (I am referring to an SS thaum build), rather, CW's are called balanced. Not take away 40% of a balanced classes dps, you just destroyed the classes viability. How long does class balance take? How long as the SW gone without adjustment, how long did it take to get storm spell adjusted? How long will it take to get the CW FIXED once such a change is made (since it would be a fix, once they do less damage then every class except paladin). It would probably take as long as its taking all those other classes to be adjusted....you know....3/4 mods.
Also: reworking the set does not mean necessarily to "nerf it". Just change the way it works. For example, make it work unlinked from buffs and weapon damage, normalizing it so that on every class you get the same amount of DPS boost. I think that, as usual, this community is quite short-sighted and selfish.
Read the thread title. Would you like lostmauth set to be ADJUSTED.
As i explained, it's not a matter of "nerf". It's a matter of changing the way it works. Right now, it works and scales with 1)weapon damage and 2)damage buffs. This makes the set bonus very floaty and unpredictable. Which is bad. What i proposed it to rework it giving it X damage (not "weapon damage"), affected by crit severity but not by damage buffs.
Now, "X" can be ANY value needed to let CWs keep the needed boost, while reducing the impact it has on GWFs DPS.
Now, while CWs get more "% wise", it's also known that the set procs on GWFs are way higher. The % is just lower because the overall DPS is higher. Let's say a CW DPS output is 100k, with 40k eLoL procs, making it 40% of their total DPS. A GWF DPS output is 240k, with 80k procs, making it 30% of their overall DPS. Which is lower in %, but double in bonus value.
If you want to get same procs through GWFs nerf, you need to get them down from 240k to 120k. Which is too low considering they do not bring anything else to the group.
If you change the set to give 40k procs on every class, CWs deal the same overall DPS output, while GWFs lose 40k eLoL procs.
You go from a 240k-100k--->140k difference to a 200k-100k--->100k difference
Which is already a huge rebalance. Without eLoL set on both classes it would become 160k-60k--->100k. The same. Not floating. Predictable and balanced.
Now, assuming we want at least a 50% difference (random number) going from a DPS only primary striker, to a class that brings also CC-utility, to keep the DPS-only class "appealing" for PvE, what is left to do is balance the classes, now without eLoL procs creating confusion.
So you get the DPS output without eLoL, after a rebalance, changed to
CW= 60k GWF=90k
And with eLoL it's 100k vs 150k. Which is balanced. 120k, instead, is not balanced and nobody would call a GWF for a puny 20% more damage, when another class can also bring 100% more utility, CC or buffs/debuffs compared to the destroyer.
Well, this is what it looks like more or less, using numbers to illustrate what its like, the base line of 100 is GWF ATM: With the elol set as it is: 1) GWF: 100 2) SW: 94 3) HR: 71 4) TR/DC/GF/CW: 66 5) OP: 33
Thats an approximation and for GF, DC and OP I am going off of DPS GF's, DC's and OP's that I know. This is taken at a +/- similar item level. If the elol set did a fixed amount of damage for all classes, how the classes compare would still follow the same metric as if the set didn't exist, to maintain the same degree of balance, either the set needs to give more to some classes then others, or TR and CW need to be buffed with the nerfing/adjusting of the set. Here is a question for you, does the CW provide enough utility for it to do similar damage to an oathbound paladin, or would you rather just take that dps specced OP?
do you really want us to believe such a subjective summation of data, that´s, excuse me in advance, totally c.rap... I can show you data from a edemo run where a 3.2k GWF dealt 4x more damage than anyone else in the group, explantions? Do this in a T2 dungeon or a raid, where the mobs do not fall in one second running with a maxed group of player and every class can do long term damage on targets otherwise run that setup in elol with 1,8k green chars for example
No offense @schietindebux but although I have never ran with you, I know good SW's who have and they call you "below average to average at best". SW is a class that has a much higher skill requirement then GWF, it can achieve similar results as a GWF, but it rarely occurs because most SW's are bad. GWF in contrast, doesn't require nearly as much skill to achieve those levels of dps, which means that you see it more often. Furthermore, there are likely more GWF's in the community then SW's, so you see them more often, which means you get beaten by them more often.
no offence to them , name them and I will answer, because thats´s for sure an offence born out of your small sight of NWO, running premades all time we can do runs for sure, pm me in game, I run a templock PVP setup atm , but do not fear to compete, just do an edemo an elol and some more Quallo in game handle is the same, show me your skill the only warlock btw i did a testrun was btfw, in the end I did more than good, but tbh I never run with any other warlocks so far doing testings and normally i pug , so I am curious about the names? who might that be? so waiting for your invite
I will invite after my daily elol runs (I am about half way through), we can do eCC or something. I don't have any SW's online on my FL atm so you won't be able to compare youself to them, but you will be able to compare yourself to me or my friends if you like. One of the SW's who said that about you was your guildie Orion/Daigotsu/Whatever he is calling himself now (I swear he has a different name every time I check my fl).
interesting, so you say my guild leader calls me a bad performig warlock.... i hardly can believe what you say, because normally he is more a diplomatic type, never offending like I do
Well, a while ago I asked him, "Is @schietindebux a good warlock" as you posted a lot on the SW forums and his response was "He is average at best, nothing amazing". TBH, the best warlock I know is fernu, I have ran with him once or twice only, but he is far better then any other lock I know.
nice, we did two runs together in all that time MC and eToS, beside dragonfights in SH so now we do testing CW vs temptationlock, no buffood, I never use it
Ok, sure I am up for testing anything, bear in mind I consider myself an average CW though as well, so it will be a fair comparison CW's like freedom, Agathe Beaur and that guy with the name I cannot spell (amazing MoF) are better then me though.
There are 2 ends of the spectrum here pando, there is GWF, which people say gets too much from the set and then there is CW. CW gets more from the set then GWF in most cases % wise, but nobody is complaining a fully specced dps CW with the elol set is OP (I am referring to an SS thaum build), rather, CW's are called balanced. Not take away 40% of a balanced classes dps, you just destroyed the classes viability. How long does class balance take? How long as the SW gone without adjustment, how long did it take to get storm spell adjusted? How long will it take to get the CW FIXED once such a change is made (since it would be a fix, once they do less damage then every class except paladin). It would probably take as long as its taking all those other classes to be adjusted....you know....3/4 mods.
Also: reworking the set does not mean necessarily to "nerf it". Just change the way it works. For example, make it work unlinked from buffs and weapon damage, normalizing it so that on every class you get the same amount of DPS boost. I think that, as usual, this community is quite short-sighted and selfish.
Read the thread title. Would you like lostmauth set to be ADJUSTED.
As i explained, it's not a matter of "nerf". It's a matter of changing the way it works. Right now, it works and scales with 1)weapon damage and 2)damage buffs. This makes the set bonus very floaty and unpredictable. Which is bad. What i proposed it to rework it giving it X damage (not "weapon damage"), affected by crit severity but not by damage buffs.
Now, "X" can be ANY value needed to let CWs keep the needed boost, while reducing the impact it has on GWFs DPS.
Now, while CWs get more "% wise", it's also known that the set procs on GWFs are way higher. The % is just lower because the overall DPS is higher. Let's say a CW DPS output is 100k, with 40k eLoL procs, making it 40% of their total DPS. A GWF DPS output is 240k, with 80k procs, making it 30% of their overall DPS. Which is lower in %, but double in bonus value.
If you want to get same procs through GWFs nerf, you need to get them down from 240k to 120k. Which is too low considering they do not bring anything else to the group.
If you change the set to give 40k procs on every class, CWs deal the same overall DPS output, while GWFs lose 40k eLoL procs.
You go from a 240k-100k--->140k difference to a 200k-100k--->100k difference
Which is already a huge rebalance. Without eLoL set on both classes it would become 160k-60k--->100k. The same. Not floating. Predictable and balanced.
Now, assuming we want at least a 50% difference (random number) going from a DPS only primary striker, to a class that brings also CC-utility, to keep the DPS-only class "appealing" for PvE, what is left to do is balance the classes, now without eLoL procs creating confusion.
So you get the DPS output without eLoL, after a rebalance, changed to
CW= 60k GWF=90k
And with eLoL it's 100k vs 150k. Which is balanced. 120k, instead, is not balanced and nobody would call a GWF for a puny 20% more damage, when another class can also bring 100% more utility, CC or buffs/debuffs compared to the destroyer.
Well, this is what it looks like more or less, using numbers to illustrate what its like, the base line of 100 is GWF ATM: With the elol set as it is: 1) GWF: 100 2) SW: 94 3) HR: 71 4) TR/DC/GF/CW: 66 5) OP: 33
Thats an approximation and for GF, DC and OP I am going off of DPS GF's, DC's and OP's that I know. This is taken at a +/- similar item level. If the elol set did a fixed amount of damage for all classes, how the classes compare would still follow the same metric as if the set didn't exist, to maintain the same degree of balance, either the set needs to give more to some classes then others, or TR and CW need to be buffed with the nerfing/adjusting of the set. Here is a question for you, does the CW provide enough utility for it to do similar damage to an oathbound paladin, or would you rather just take that dps specced OP?
do you really want us to believe such a subjective summation of data, that´s, excuse me in advance, totally c.rap... I can show you data from a edemo run where a 3.2k GWF dealt 4x more damage than anyone else in the group, explantions? Do this in a T2 dungeon or a raid, where the mobs do not fall in one second running with a maxed group of player and every class can do long term damage on targets otherwise run that setup in elol with 1,8k green chars for example
No offense @schietindebux but although I have never ran with you, I know good SW's who have and they call you "below average to average at best". SW is a class that has a much higher skill requirement then GWF, it can achieve similar results as a GWF, but it rarely occurs because most SW's are bad. GWF in contrast, doesn't require nearly as much skill to achieve those levels of dps, which means that you see it more often. Furthermore, there are likely more GWF's in the community then SW's, so you see them more often, which means you get beaten by them more often.
no offence to them , name them and I will answer, because thats´s for sure an offence born out of your small sight of NWO, running premades all time we can do runs for sure, pm me in game, I run a templock PVP setup atm , but do not fear to compete, just do an edemo an elol and some more Quallo in game handle is the same, show me your skill the only warlock btw i did a testrun was btfw, in the end I did more than good, but tbh I never run with any other warlocks so far doing testings and normally i pug , so I am curious about the names? who might that be? so waiting for your invite
I will invite after my daily elol runs (I am about half way through), we can do eCC or something. I don't have any SW's online on my FL atm so you won't be able to compare youself to them, but you will be able to compare yourself to me or my friends if you like. One of the SW's who said that about you was your guildie Orion/Daigotsu/Whatever he is calling himself now (I swear he has a different name every time I check my fl).
interesting, so you say my guild leader calls me a bad performig warlock.... i hardly can believe what you say, because normally he is more a diplomatic type, never offending like I do
Well, a while ago I asked him, "Is @schietindebux a good warlock" as you posted a lot on the SW forums and his response was "He is average at best, nothing amazing". TBH, the best warlock I know is fernu, I have ran with him once or twice only, but he is far better then any other lock I know.
nice, we did two runs together in all that time MC and eToS, beside dragonfights in SH so now we do testing CW vs temptationlock, no buffood, I never use it
Ok, sure I am up for testing anything, bear in mind I consider myself an average CW though as well, so it will be a fair comparison CW's like freedom, Agathe Beaur and that guy with the name I cannot spell (amazing MoF) are better then me though.
since I consider myself an average warlock, that will do, btw I do not share the opinion Warlock needs more skill than GWF to play the class, warlock is easy to handle we do elol edemo f.e. but to get things clear, you do your best and I do my best, since we need valid data, sadly there is none of the good GWF online atm. I try to find one
since I play a GWF and run dungeon and leveld different classes I can simply not join this, its plain wrong and beside some inexperienced forumuser there are not many player in game who really will believe this, lol
What thefabricant talks about is not a "i play X class so..." level. I play 2.2k HR too, but i don't take my experienced on him as real data. What he explained is that he tested damage on PvE toons that are specced to perform as good as the class can. I have done runs with BiS GWFs and Leeroy/Daigotsu (our guild leader). He does the same damage. He's also used at running with BiS GWFs, and he stated multiple times that he can rival them in damage.
There are multiple variables when running a dungeon but you can assume that a test ran the way thefabricant did, is far closer to reality than some random player experience. I avoid using my personal experience as "valuable data" because i know i'm not using my GWF at its best. But i can see if a test is valuable or not. His test sounds valuable, and even if there are flaws in it, it's unlikely that these falws can account for more than a few "points". If GWF is at 66 in his tests, and SW is far ahead, you can't assume it's the other way around (GWF out-dpsing the SW). The difference is too big.
How would you collect valuable data then? Random forum users saying that what the experience in game is the absolute truth?
I play HR too and yeas, i already agreed that HRs are currently the best CCers in PvE and PvP. But again: why then is everyone jumping on GWFs? I agree many things must be fixed, but it's not GWFs fault if HRs stole your CC role. But again, the forums are filled with "nerf GWFs" requests.
Moral of the story: after reading your data i think it's clear that the starting point to achieve balance is to first "normalize" eLoL set, and together with that, look into classes WITHOUT the set on. Devs should start from there. If the devs come up with similar numbers as @thefabricant, then it should be clear what must be done.
And players should learn that what happens to them in-game, is not valuable data to balance. I can't use my eLoL runs and performances as valuable data. The best thing you can do as a player, is to group up maxed PvE players and do multiple runs, then look into the data.
i ask you: why your personal experience is valuable data, but @thefabricant running multiple runs with other maxed players all in META build, to test how things work, is HAMSTER? Also, if i may add, not many players know how to properly play their toon. Out of 100 players who complain about GWFs on forums, i can bet less than 10% actually play their class at its best. I'm among them, since i'm a PvP type. Which is why i don't talk about my personal experience/ performance. But i examine what others can do. I keep in mind the score of all the BiS players i run with, and listen to what BiS players who test stuff for real in PvE, say. Then i put all together. I think his datas are enough to take a look into what i said, instead of jumping, as everyone do, on the "nerf GWFs" train. You guys don't even take into consideration the fact that you might actually be missing something.
I know for a fact that CW is still a beast without LM set. The data is flawed somewhere.
It depends, you may know good CW's, but only bad versions of the other classes. I know some very good players from all classes, including some dps dc's and dps gf's, which is what I am basing this information off of. Heck, I even know a HR with a build that ONLY works in tiamat (but sucks elsewhere), but in tiamat, it blows every other build for every other class out of the water.
thefab you sound like this game is rocket science.....its easyest game i have played in my mmo history or gaming history if you dont compare first marios.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
thefab you sound like this game is rocket science.....its easyest game i have played in my mmo history or gaming history if you dont compare first marios.
No, this game is not challenging, at all, but even though it isn't, there are still a lot of people who are bad at it. if I want a challenge, I try to push my level 93 HC char in PoE to 100, I do it every now and again, but this game has a nicer community and its more team orientated.
so we run 2xelol, 1x eGWD and one edemo in the sum we experienced elol: a 3k CW using stormspell+lolset deals tons of damage, no clue what it is without that set, 30% less at least a 3,4k GWF did double to triple damage (running ahead) a 3,1k temptation warlock did about 1/3 less in elol than a CW, hard to say since mobs die in seconds, no fury or damnation to compare eGWD: no GWF on board, CW killed most stuff by lolset+stormspell procs at a two-pull-run, very funny (thy to our guildy) temptation did about 1/3 less than a furylock, CW far ahead 80 mio+ (46-64-87mio about that in the end), can´t exactly tell if fury did better at endboss edemo: again CW with stormspell+lolset far ahead, fury warlock couldn´t head up until he slotted ... iliabruenset in my case, a disaster having all love from demorrgorgon from healing aggro, no tank on board (no, the pally didn´t tank, he run away I really want to know how you are going to get valid resulty by runing elol? T2 would be more valid in case no broken mechanics like puppet or 11 mio hits from morderous flame come into account I am temptation-PVP skilled, like in my posted build, but I think its sufficient that way in comparison to PVE dps-builds
What we could see is a completely broken set (lolset) doing crazy things all time especially with some classes, making it near impossible to balance classes that way so in case cryptic is willing to balance arround such silly stuff, I am sure they will do no good
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
so we run 2xelol, 1x eGWD and one edemo in the sum we experienced elol: a 3k CW using stormspell+lolset deals tons of damage, no clue what it is without that set, 30% less at least a 3,4k GWF did double to triple damage (running ahead) a 3,1k temptation warlock did about 1/3 less in elol than a CW, hard to say since mobs die in seconds, no fury or damnation to compare eGWD: no GWF on board, CW killed most stuff by lolset+stormspell procs at a two-pull-run, very funny (thy to our guildy) temptation did about 1/3 less than a furylock, CW far ahead 80 mio+ (46-64-87mio about that in the end), can´t exactly tell if fury did better at endboss edemo: again CW with stormspell+lolset far ahead, fury warlock couldn´t head up until he slotted ... iliabruenset in my case, a disaster having all love from demorrgorgon from healing aggro, no tank on board (no, the pally didn´t tank, he run away I really want to know how you are going to get valid resulty by runing elol? T2 would be more valid in case no broken mechanics like puppet or 11 mio hits from morderous flame come into account I am temptation-PVP skilled, like in my posted build, but I think its sufficient that way in comparison to PVE dps-builds
What we could see is a completely broken set (lolset) doing crazy things all time especially with some classes, making it near impossible to balance classes that way so in case cryptic is willing to balance arround such silly stuff, I am sure they will do no good
U know, i was that gwf, and i did x4 (40mln vs 10mln) of ur dmg, thats first. We didnt had any debuffing dc or buffing gf (i was taking tank role + OP for heal) So u had on bosses at least 30s (first one) to fire up all what u got, while for me 10s of that was taking aggro from u, coz u could not w8 ofc, and getting all my buffs up. That said after first boss i had 11mln dmg, u had 2.6mln (when we entered i had 5mln, u had 1mln). Sadly i didnt SS that, but i will gladly go again with u, and smash ur punky build again.
U r just doing trashy job my friend, i have one of my friends SWs, tatiana as one of my biggest comeptitors. he is 2.9k IL (no fabled). When i was 3k IL we had head to head runs, now when i upgraded my gwf to 3.6k IL im outdpsing him usualy x1.5, sometimes x2. He tends to melt scorps in second and get all what i dpsed on pulls back.
No, u r just a rly bad, high geared SW, which is plenty of them around. Please ask @kolatmaster or @fernu (amazing fury SW with similar IL to mine, who is eating me on breakfest with his dmg) for further advices. im done with u and ur whining.
so we run 2xelol, 1x eGWD and one edemo in the sum we experienced elol: a 3k CW using stormspell+lolset deals tons of damage, no clue what it is without that set, 30% less at least a 3,4k GWF did double to triple damage (running ahead) a 3,1k temptation warlock did about 1/3 less in elol than a CW, hard to say since mobs die in seconds, no fury or damnation to compare eGWD: no GWF on board, CW killed most stuff by lolset+stormspell procs at a two-pull-run, very funny (thy to our guildy) temptation did about 1/3 less than a furylock, CW far ahead 80 mio+ (46-64-87mio about that in the end), can´t exactly tell if fury did better at endboss edemo: again CW with stormspell+lolset far ahead, fury warlock couldn´t head up until he slotted ... iliabruenset in my case, a disaster having all love from demorrgorgon from healing aggro, no tank on board (no, the pally didn´t tank, he run away I really want to know how you are going to get valid resulty by runing elol? T2 would be more valid in case no broken mechanics like puppet or 11 mio hits from morderous flame come into account I am temptation-PVP skilled, like in my posted build, but I think its sufficient that way in comparison to PVE dps-builds
What we could see is a completely broken set (lolset) doing crazy things all time especially with some classes, making it near impossible to balance classes that way so in case cryptic is willing to balance arround such silly stuff, I am sure they will do no good
U know, i was that gwf, and i did x4 (40mln vs 10mln) of ur dmg, thats first. We didnt had any debuffing dc or buffing gf (i was taking tank role + OP for heal) So u had on bosses at least 30s (first one) to fire up all what u got, while for me 10s of that was taking aggro from u, coz u could not w8 ofc, and getting all my buffs up. That said after first boss i had 11mln dmg, u had 2.6mln (when we entered i had 5mln, u had 1mln). Sadly i didnt SS that, but i will gladly go again with u, and smash ur punky build again.
U r just doing trashy job my friend, i have one of my friends SWs, tatiana as one of my biggest comeptitors. he is 2.9k IL (no fabled). When i was 3k IL we had head to head runs, now when i upgraded my gwf to 3.6k IL im outdpsing him usualy x1.5, sometimes x2. He tends to melt scorps in second and get all what i dpsed on pulls back.
No, u r just a rly bad, high geared SW, which is plenty of them around. Please ask @kolatmaster or @fernu (amazing fury SW with similar IL to mine, who is eating me on breakfest with his dmg) for further advices. im done with u and ur whining.
(Sin)cerely Kain
you are talking about a BIS warlock, with 3xr12´s bondings and maxed stuff all I say and all I know is you dealt about double of that good performing CW (41-17mio?can´t remember exactly) beside your insulting mannor, wich is permanet, yes you run ahead all time, but that would not change a lot in the end, GWF will not be useless without lolset
I voted NO, because I hate Nerfing. It punishes the player and nerfing is a developers lazy way for fixing a problem they failed to properly account for. They should learn from their mistake, accept it and change the environment around the problem they want to nerf. i.e. build up the other classes to bring the problem back in line.
Yes, to test DPS you need ACT logs of an instanced solo run with every class with optimized builds, same IL, and with and without the LM set. Latency and skill would also through off the numbers.
you need fights that last a while, to get a small insight into the performance of a class, T1 elol is probably not the best option imo, the fights are over before they even started, imo you get a better insight running T2 fact is, the lolset changes a lot being balanced some classes do will get problems, CW maybe, TR yes, GWF...no
Sometimes I wonder if the devs do most of this stuff on purpose. Looking at the abbreviations for the lostmauth set (lol) and the paladin (op) and just how buggy and foolishly implemented these things were and the delay in fixing them one has to wonder. I would not be surprised if they soon release a new super powerful companion called a "Ferocious Underling" -- I will let you figure the rest.
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
Yes, to test DPS you need ACT logs of an instanced solo run with every class with optimized builds, same IL, and with and without the LM set. Latency and skill would also through off the numbers.
you need fights that last a while, to get a small insight into the performance of a class, T1 elol is probably not the best option imo, the fights are over before they even started, imo you get a better insight running T2 fact is, the lolset changes a lot being balanced some classes do will get problems, CW maybe, TR yes, GWF...no
As i have said it many times already, in eDomo, with great debuffs, sharp (fab) can get to my gwf and even outdps me, coz i simply dont have time for buffs. That should be an indicator to show how well cw can preform in endgame content. At least SS one.
Said all this, i also agree that elol set must be toned down, just most of u always shows wrong reasons, which ends up with wrong expectations. After nerf, how it will be end? U will be crying for more nerfs and buffs.
I also belive t2 is better place to test class preformance, but i also belive, better SW shall take ur place.
And as i have said, Tatiana is 2.9, and he is prefroming extremy well.
(Sin)cerely Kain
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
so we run 2xelol, 1x eGWD and one edemo in the sum we experienced elol: a 3k CW using stormspell+lolset deals tons of damage, no clue what it is without that set, 30% less at least a 3,4k GWF did double to triple damage (running ahead) a 3,1k temptation warlock did about 1/3 less in elol than a CW, hard to say since mobs die in seconds, no fury or damnation to compare eGWD: no GWF on board, CW killed most stuff by lolset+stormspell procs at a two-pull-run, very funny (thy to our guildy) temptation did about 1/3 less than a furylock, CW far ahead 80 mio+ (46-64-87mio about that in the end), can´t exactly tell if fury did better at endboss edemo: again CW with stormspell+lolset far ahead, fury warlock couldn´t head up until he slotted ... iliabruenset in my case, a disaster having all love from demorrgorgon from healing aggro, no tank on board (no, the pally didn´t tank, he run away I really want to know how you are going to get valid resulty by runing elol? T2 would be more valid in case no broken mechanics like puppet or 11 mio hits from morderous flame come into account I am temptation-PVP skilled, like in my posted build, but I think its sufficient that way in comparison to PVE dps-builds
What we could see is a completely broken set (lolset) doing crazy things all time especially with some classes, making it near impossible to balance classes that way so in case cryptic is willing to balance arround such silly stuff, I am sure they will do no good
U know, i was that gwf, and i did x4 (40mln vs 10mln) of ur dmg, thats first. We didnt had any debuffing dc or buffing gf (i was taking tank role + OP for heal) So u had on bosses at least 30s (first one) to fire up all what u got, while for me 10s of that was taking aggro from u, coz u could not w8 ofc, and getting all my buffs up. That said after first boss i had 11mln dmg, u had 2.6mln (when we entered i had 5mln, u had 1mln). Sadly i didnt SS that, but i will gladly go again with u, and smash ur punky build again.
U r just doing trashy job my friend, i have one of my friends SWs, tatiana as one of my biggest comeptitors. he is 2.9k IL (no fabled). When i was 3k IL we had head to head runs, now when i upgraded my gwf to 3.6k IL im outdpsing him usualy x1.5, sometimes x2. He tends to melt scorps in second and get all what i dpsed on pulls back.
No, u r just a rly bad, high geared SW, which is plenty of them around. Please ask @kolatmaster or @fernu (amazing fury SW with similar IL to mine, who is eating me on breakfest with his dmg) for further advices. im done with u and ur whining.
(Sin)cerely Kain
you are talking about a BIS warlock, with 3xr12´s bondings and maxed stuff all I say and all I know is you dealt about double of that good performing CW (41-17mio?can´t remember exactly) beside your insulting mannor, wich is permanet, yes you run ahead all time, but that would not change a lot in the end, GWF will not be useless without lolset
At the end of the day, I stand by my figures. Your lock is not built for damage, but warlocks built for damage (and any other class built for damage, I was using people building for damage, not anything else, as my baseline) do damage that fall in line with those figures.
zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
edited January 2016
Yes
Also.
I strongly belive that u can have fun game only when u r meet certain marks:
-U preform extremly well, so even hard content is doable in resonable amount of time. -U preform extremly well, so boring, grinding content can be done rly fast. -Content is entertaining and worth exploring. -Content is rewarding so is worth spending more time doing it. -Ur team is a true team, and even if u r not best geared, u preform flawlessly as a team.
For that reason stuffs like even 40% dmg boost from elol set must be ingame, nobody, especialy us - endgamers, wants to run elol for 10k time, and do it in 15 min coz team is slow (from team fault), so if team cant cover up in teamplay for lack in gear or experience i will be ALWAYS first on pull. Not coz i want outdps u, shame u or whetever. Coz i want still have this elol done in 8min, egwd done in 9min, etos done in 10min. And eDemo done in 8 min. Or as close to those numbers as possible. Coz that conetent is already boring after 10th time, and is like punishment after u have run it like 6k times (me and elol as example).
If i have to chose to leave team behind and smash pull alone, coz u r slow, and thanks to that it will make elol run shorter by 5 min at least. I will do it. Most of pugs says no words. Most preforms rly bad compared to top builds. I have nothing to speak with them about, so i wont never enjoy content played with them.
Effectivness is what matters, both in life, work and gaming.
The first who strike eat all the damage, if it clears the battlefield there is nothing left for others to eat. This is well known by everyone.
One time, in a pug, there was a troll running ahead of the party and almost soloing the dungeon to show just how he was topping me with its toon and showing is big epeen on this forum.
That is the kind of person inflating runs and make them useless for people like me that wait for everyone to have fun playing together.
Obviously it wasn't zekethesinner, I don't know him nor his behaviour in game, but I would not bias schiet just for not running ahead with you and not challenging you on the DPS side. Also he is a Temptation and is supposed to do far less damage than a GWF, half at most if the GWF run together with the party. If he wanted to do just DPS he should have copy-cat the two builds out there that are public. What's the fun in that? He have to do it because some fanatic says that's the only way? Scendete sulla terra ragazzi. This game is for fun guys, not for coping with psicological, or worse, problems.
Have fun, and if you like to solo it just tell at start, eventually we will requeue, no problems.
Normally, players with decent DPS move through dungeons at a faster pace - It means we can earn more AD with our limited playtime. It's not a matter of e-peen. Have you considered using a build optimized for decent DPS @arcofortep12 ? It'll help you clear dungeons faster.
You'll find if you run with any of the better CWs or GWFs or DPS classes at all, that dungeons are cleared far faster, because we have properly stacked stats that work with our build, and have tested our builds to find the most efficient selection of feats.
zeke i strongly believe that you can believe what you want....other people have fun playing games for just playing it how they want... just like in real life efectiveness isnt all its the fun and happyness of your own life make it yours make what YOU want cos in the end this life is all we got.
so we run 2xelol, 1x eGWD and one edemo in the sum we experienced elol: a 3k CW using stormspell+lolset deals tons of damage, no clue what it is without that set, 30% less at least a 3,4k GWF did double to triple damage (running ahead) a 3,1k temptation warlock did about 1/3 less in elol than a CW, hard to say since mobs die in seconds, no fury or damnation to compare eGWD: no GWF on board, CW killed most stuff by lolset+stormspell procs at a two-pull-run, very funny (thy to our guildy) temptation did about 1/3 less than a furylock, CW far ahead 80 mio+ (46-64-87mio about that in the end), can´t exactly tell if fury did better at endboss edemo: again CW with stormspell+lolset far ahead, fury warlock couldn´t head up until he slotted ... iliabruenset in my case, a disaster having all love from demorrgorgon from healing aggro, no tank on board (no, the pally didn´t tank, he run away I really want to know how you are going to get valid resulty by runing elol? T2 would be more valid in case no broken mechanics like puppet or 11 mio hits from morderous flame come into account I am temptation-PVP skilled, like in my posted build, but I think its sufficient that way in comparison to PVE dps-builds
What we could see is a completely broken set (lolset) doing crazy things all time especially with some classes, making it near impossible to balance classes that way so in case cryptic is willing to balance arround such silly stuff, I am sure they will do no good
U know, i was that gwf, and i did x4 (40mln vs 10mln) of ur dmg, thats first. We didnt had any debuffing dc or buffing gf (i was taking tank role + OP for heal) So u had on bosses at least 30s (first one) to fire up all what u got, while for me 10s of that was taking aggro from u, coz u could not w8 ofc, and getting all my buffs up. That said after first boss i had 11mln dmg, u had 2.6mln (when we entered i had 5mln, u had 1mln). Sadly i didnt SS that, but i will gladly go again with u, and smash ur punky build again.
U r just doing trashy job my friend, i have one of my friends SWs, tatiana as one of my biggest comeptitors. he is 2.9k IL (no fabled). When i was 3k IL we had head to head runs, now when i upgraded my gwf to 3.6k IL im outdpsing him usualy x1.5, sometimes x2. He tends to melt scorps in second and get all what i dpsed on pulls back.
No, u r just a rly bad, high geared SW, which is plenty of them around. Please ask @kolatmaster or @fernu (amazing fury SW with similar IL to mine, who is eating me on breakfest with his dmg) for further advices. im done with u and ur whining.
(Sin)cerely Kain
you are talking about a BIS warlock, with 3xr12´s bondings and maxed stuff all I say and all I know is you dealt about double of that good performing CW (41-17mio?can´t remember exactly) beside your insulting mannor, wich is permanet, yes you run ahead all time, but that would not change a lot in the end, GWF will not be useless without lolset
At the end of the day, I stand by my figures. Your lock is not built for damage, but warlocks built for damage (and any other class built for damage, I was using people building for damage, not anything else, as my baseline) do damage that fall in line with those figures.
no, my build is not made for damage and I think it should not deal more being templock PVP skilled and sure I can´t out dps a fury PVE-lock, but it is the first build that is fun in PVP, and perfect for pugging since it heals a ton.
-> to the player who wants to run a different build that does great in PVP even with mediocre gaer and is not relying heavily on bugs like damnation or fury, to name puppet at first and morderousflame second (wich might be associated to the spawning puppet killing a mob with that power, who know exactly)
beside this, "zeke" , I hope no ingame friend since he has a real bad "aura", was usefull to show, how much damage a GWF deals He compares his damage to a BIS warlock with "maxed gear" and claims he was beaten by that, I can´t follow his arguments any more, maybe that´s why he runs in front like a maniac.
I stay on my opinion, your data without lolset from T1-dungeon is not representative for the overall performance of classes, you chose the wrong dungeon imo CW 7% above the tank? not seriously GWF 1/4 below a warlock? i doubt that, except you do your testing with a damnation lock, wich is obviously broken, and can´t be a measure for anything
Your CW loses 30% damage, enough left imo I already met SS-CW´s doing same numbers as GWF in edemo, but all in all they can´t compete with GWF in the end lolset deals 30% from overall damage for several classes, like GWF and TR
my emperical list for DPS without lolset will be like that: 1. GWF 2. Warlock 3.Hunter/CW 4. DC/GF/TR 5. OP
warlock will do a step froward maybe on par with GWF, CW and TR (hard times) will fall of
[...] They should learn from their mistake, accept it and change the environment around the problem they want to nerf. i.e. build up the other classes to bring the problem back in line.
And this is why I'm going to stop wasting my time on this thread in particular.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
so we run 2xelol, 1x eGWD and one edemo in the sum we experienced elol: a 3k CW using stormspell+lolset deals tons of damage, no clue what it is without that set, 30% less at least a 3,4k GWF did double to triple damage (running ahead) a 3,1k temptation warlock did about 1/3 less in elol than a CW, hard to say since mobs die in seconds, no fury or damnation to compare eGWD: no GWF on board, CW killed most stuff by lolset+stormspell procs at a two-pull-run, very funny (thy to our guildy) temptation did about 1/3 less than a furylock, CW far ahead 80 mio+ (46-64-87mio about that in the end), can´t exactly tell if fury did better at endboss edemo: again CW with stormspell+lolset far ahead, fury warlock couldn´t head up until he slotted ... iliabruenset in my case, a disaster having all love from demorrgorgon from healing aggro, no tank on board (no, the pally didn´t tank, he run away I really want to know how you are going to get valid resulty by runing elol? T2 would be more valid in case no broken mechanics like puppet or 11 mio hits from morderous flame come into account I am temptation-PVP skilled, like in my posted build, but I think its sufficient that way in comparison to PVE dps-builds
What we could see is a completely broken set (lolset) doing crazy things all time especially with some classes, making it near impossible to balance classes that way so in case cryptic is willing to balance arround such silly stuff, I am sure they will do no good
U know, i was that gwf, and i did x4 (40mln vs 10mln) of ur dmg, thats first. We didnt had any debuffing dc or buffing gf (i was taking tank role + OP for heal) So u had on bosses at least 30s (first one) to fire up all what u got, while for me 10s of that was taking aggro from u, coz u could not w8 ofc, and getting all my buffs up. That said after first boss i had 11mln dmg, u had 2.6mln (when we entered i had 5mln, u had 1mln). Sadly i didnt SS that, but i will gladly go again with u, and smash ur punky build again.
U r just doing trashy job my friend, i have one of my friends SWs, tatiana as one of my biggest comeptitors. he is 2.9k IL (no fabled). When i was 3k IL we had head to head runs, now when i upgraded my gwf to 3.6k IL im outdpsing him usualy x1.5, sometimes x2. He tends to melt scorps in second and get all what i dpsed on pulls back.
No, u r just a rly bad, high geared SW, which is plenty of them around. Please ask @kolatmaster or @fernu (amazing fury SW with similar IL to mine, who is eating me on breakfest with his dmg) for further advices. im done with u and ur whining.
(Sin)cerely Kain
you are talking about a BIS warlock, with 3xr12´s bondings and maxed stuff all I say and all I know is you dealt about double of that good performing CW (41-17mio?can´t remember exactly) beside your insulting mannor, wich is permanet, yes you run ahead all time, but that would not change a lot in the end, GWF will not be useless without lolset
At the end of the day, I stand by my figures. Your lock is not built for damage, but warlocks built for damage (and any other class built for damage, I was using people building for damage, not anything else, as my baseline) do damage that fall in line with those figures.
no, my build is not made for damage and I think it should not deal more being templock PVP skilled and sure I can´t out dps a fury PVE-lock, but it is the first build that is fun in PVP, and perfect for pugging since it heals a ton.
beside this "zeke" , I hope no ingame friend since he has a ral bad "aura", was usefull to show, how much damage a GWF deals He compares his damage to a BIS warlock with "maxed gear" and claims he was beaten by that, I can´t follow his arguments any more, maybe that´s why he runs in front like a maniac.
I stay on my opinion, your data without lolset from T1-dungeon is not representative for the overall performance of classes CW 7% above the tank? not seriously GWF 1/4 below a warlock? i doubt that, except you do your testing with a damnation lock, wich is obviously broken, and can´t be a measure for anything
Your CW loses 30% damage, enough left imo I already met SS-CW´s doing same numbers as GWF in edemo, but all in all they can´t compete with GWF in the end lolset deals 30% from overall damage for several classes, like GWF and TR
my emperical list for DPS without lolset will be like that: 1. GWF 2. Warlock 3.Hunter/CW 4. DC/GF/TR 5. OP
warlock will do a step froward maybe on par with GWF, CW and TR (hard times) will fall of
so we run 2xelol, 1x eGWD and one edemo in the sum we experienced elol: a 3k CW using stormspell+lolset deals tons of damage, no clue what it is without that set, 30% less at least a 3,4k GWF did double to triple damage (running ahead) a 3,1k temptation warlock did about 1/3 less in elol than a CW, hard to say since mobs die in seconds, no fury or damnation to compare eGWD: no GWF on board, CW killed most stuff by lolset+stormspell procs at a two-pull-run, very funny (thy to our guildy) temptation did about 1/3 less than a furylock, CW far ahead 80 mio+ (46-64-87mio about that in the end), can´t exactly tell if fury did better at endboss edemo: again CW with stormspell+lolset far ahead, fury warlock couldn´t head up until he slotted ... iliabruenset in my case, a disaster having all love from demorrgorgon from healing aggro, no tank on board (no, the pally didn´t tank, he run away I really want to know how you are going to get valid resulty by runing elol? T2 would be more valid in case no broken mechanics like puppet or 11 mio hits from morderous flame come into account I am temptation-PVP skilled, like in my posted build, but I think its sufficient that way in comparison to PVE dps-builds
What we could see is a completely broken set (lolset) doing crazy things all time especially with some classes, making it near impossible to balance classes that way so in case cryptic is willing to balance arround such silly stuff, I am sure they will do no good
U know, i was that gwf, and i did x4 (40mln vs 10mln) of ur dmg, thats first. We didnt had any debuffing dc or buffing gf (i was taking tank role + OP for heal) So u had on bosses at least 30s (first one) to fire up all what u got, while for me 10s of that was taking aggro from u, coz u could not w8 ofc, and getting all my buffs up. That said after first boss i had 11mln dmg, u had 2.6mln (when we entered i had 5mln, u had 1mln). Sadly i didnt SS that, but i will gladly go again with u, and smash ur punky build again.
U r just doing trashy job my friend, i have one of my friends SWs, tatiana as one of my biggest comeptitors. he is 2.9k IL (no fabled). When i was 3k IL we had head to head runs, now when i upgraded my gwf to 3.6k IL im outdpsing him usualy x1.5, sometimes x2. He tends to melt scorps in second and get all what i dpsed on pulls back.
No, u r just a rly bad, high geared SW, which is plenty of them around. Please ask @kolatmaster or @fernu (amazing fury SW with similar IL to mine, who is eating me on breakfest with his dmg) for further advices. im done with u and ur whining.
(Sin)cerely Kain
you are talking about a BIS warlock, with 3xr12´s bondings and maxed stuff all I say and all I know is you dealt about double of that good performing CW (41-17mio?can´t remember exactly) beside your insulting mannor, wich is permanet, yes you run ahead all time, but that would not change a lot in the end, GWF will not be useless without lolset
At the end of the day, I stand by my figures. Your lock is not built for damage, but warlocks built for damage (and any other class built for damage, I was using people building for damage, not anything else, as my baseline) do damage that fall in line with those figures.
no, my build is not made for damage and I think it should not deal more being templock PVP skilled and sure I can´t out dps a fury PVE-lock, but it is the first build that is fun in PVP, and perfect for pugging since it heals a ton.
beside this "zeke" , I hope no ingame friend since he has a ral bad "aura", was usefull to show, how much damage a GWF deals He compares his damage to a BIS warlock with "maxed gear" and claims he was beaten by that, I can´t follow his arguments any more, maybe that´s why he runs in front like a maniac.
I stay on my opinion, your data without lolset from T1-dungeon is not representative for the overall performance of classes CW 7% above the tank? not seriously GWF 1/4 below a warlock? i doubt that, except you do your testing with a damnation lock, wich is obviously broken, and can´t be a measure for anything
Your CW loses 30% damage, enough left imo I already met SS-CW´s doing same numbers as GWF in edemo, but all in all they can´t compete with GWF in the end lolset deals 30% from overall damage for several classes, like GWF and TR
my emperical list for DPS without lolset will be like that: 1. GWF 2. Warlock 3.Hunter/CW 4. DC/GF/TR 5. OP
warlock will do a step froward maybe on par with GWF, CW and TR (hard times) will fall of
No, the locks I run with are fury, not damnation. Fernu is fury, kolat is fury, only bad SW's believe that damnation>fury.
damnation is broken and normally tops furylocks, except near BIS this works in T1 and T2 and skirmish, edemo fury is better choice I will contact you in case I respec some day to damnation-PVE, btw there is nothing bad about running any tree, I also could mention it´s bad to rely on SS-procs combined with lolset bonus
Comments
so now we do testing CW vs temptationlock, no buffood, I never use it
we do elol edemo f.e.
but to get things clear, you do your best and I do my best, since we need valid data, sadly there is none of the good GWF online atm. I try to find one
I have done runs with BiS GWFs and Leeroy/Daigotsu (our guild leader).
He does the same damage. He's also used at running with BiS GWFs, and he stated multiple times that he can rival them in damage.
There are multiple variables when running a dungeon but you can assume that a test ran the way thefabricant did, is far closer to reality than some random player experience. I avoid using my personal experience as "valuable data" because i know i'm not using my GWF at its best. But i can see if a test is valuable or not. His test sounds valuable, and even if there are flaws in it, it's unlikely that these falws can account for more than a few "points". If GWF is at 66 in his tests, and SW is far ahead, you can't assume it's the other way around (GWF out-dpsing the SW). The difference is too big.
How would you collect valuable data then? Random forum users saying that what the experience in game is the absolute truth?
@thefabricant:
I play HR too and yeas, i already agreed that HRs are currently the best CCers in PvE and PvP. But again: why then is everyone jumping on GWFs?
I agree many things must be fixed, but it's not GWFs fault if HRs stole your CC role. But again, the forums are filled with "nerf GWFs" requests.
Moral of the story: after reading your data i think it's clear that the starting point to achieve balance is to first "normalize" eLoL set, and together with that, look into classes WITHOUT the set on.
Devs should start from there. If the devs come up with similar numbers as @thefabricant, then it should be clear what must be done.
And players should learn that what happens to them in-game, is not valuable data to balance. I can't use my eLoL runs and performances as valuable data. The best thing you can do as a player, is to group up maxed PvE players and do multiple runs, then look into the data.
@Quallo:
i ask you: why your personal experience is valuable data, but @thefabricant running multiple runs with other maxed players all in META build, to test how things work, is HAMSTER?
Also, if i may add, not many players know how to properly play their toon. Out of 100 players who complain about GWFs on forums, i can bet less than 10% actually play their class at its best. I'm among them, since i'm a PvP type. Which is why i don't talk about my personal experience/ performance. But i examine what others can do. I keep in mind the score of all the BiS players i run with, and listen to what BiS players who test stuff for real in PvE, say. Then i put all together.
I think his datas are enough to take a look into what i said, instead of jumping, as everyone do, on the "nerf GWFs" train.
You guys don't even take into consideration the fact that you might actually be missing something.
in the sum we experienced
elol:
a 3k CW using stormspell+lolset deals tons of damage, no clue what it is without that set, 30% less at least
a 3,4k GWF did double to triple damage (running ahead)
a 3,1k temptation warlock did about 1/3 less in elol than a CW, hard to say since mobs die in seconds, no fury or damnation to compare
eGWD:
no GWF on board, CW killed most stuff by lolset+stormspell procs at a two-pull-run, very funny (thy to our guildy)
temptation did about 1/3 less than a furylock, CW far ahead 80 mio+ (46-64-87mio about that in the end), can´t exactly tell if fury did better at endboss
edemo:
again CW with stormspell+lolset far ahead, fury warlock couldn´t head up until he slotted ... iliabruenset
in my case, a disaster having all love from demorrgorgon from healing aggro, no tank on board (no, the pally didn´t tank, he run away
I really want to know how you are going to get valid resulty by runing elol?
T2 would be more valid in case no broken mechanics like puppet or 11 mio hits from morderous flame come into account
I am temptation-PVP skilled, like in my posted build, but I think its sufficient that way in comparison to PVE dps-builds
What we could see is a completely broken set (lolset) doing crazy things all time especially with some classes, making it near impossible to balance classes that way
so in case cryptic is willing to balance arround such silly stuff, I am sure they will do no good
U know, i was that gwf, and i did x4 (40mln vs 10mln) of ur dmg, thats first. We didnt had any debuffing dc or buffing gf (i was taking tank role + OP for heal) So u had on bosses at least 30s (first one) to fire up all what u got, while for me 10s of that was taking aggro from u, coz u could not w8 ofc, and getting all my buffs up. That said after first boss i had 11mln dmg, u had 2.6mln (when we entered i had 5mln, u had 1mln). Sadly i didnt SS that, but i will gladly go again with u, and smash ur punky build again.
U r just doing trashy job my friend, i have one of my friends SWs, tatiana as one of my biggest comeptitors. he is 2.9k IL (no fabled). When i was 3k IL we had head to head runs, now when i upgraded my gwf to 3.6k IL im outdpsing him usualy x1.5, sometimes x2. He tends to melt scorps in second and get all what i dpsed on pulls back.
No, u r just a rly bad, high geared SW, which is plenty of them around. Please ask @kolatmaster or @fernu (amazing fury SW with similar IL to mine, who is eating me on breakfest with his dmg) for further advices. im done with u and ur whining.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
all I say and all I know is you dealt about double of that good performing CW (41-17mio?can´t remember exactly)
beside your insulting mannor, wich is permanet, yes you run ahead all time, but that would not change a lot in the end, GWF will not be useless without lolset
fact is, the lolset changes a lot
being balanced some classes do will get problems, CW maybe, TR yes, GWF...no
And @thefabricant, u r now well preforming CW. \o/
As i have said it many times already, in eDomo, with great debuffs, sharp (fab) can get to my gwf and even outdps me, coz i simply dont have time for buffs. That should be an indicator to show how well cw can preform in endgame content. At least SS one.
Said all this, i also agree that elol set must be toned down, just most of u always shows wrong reasons, which ends up with wrong expectations. After nerf, how it will be end? U will be crying for more nerfs and buffs.
I also belive t2 is better place to test class preformance, but i also belive, better SW shall take ur place.
And as i have said, Tatiana is 2.9, and he is prefroming extremy well.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
I strongly belive that u can have fun game only when u r meet certain marks:
-U preform extremly well, so even hard content is doable in resonable amount of time.
-U preform extremly well, so boring, grinding content can be done rly fast.
-Content is entertaining and worth exploring.
-Content is rewarding so is worth spending more time doing it.
-Ur team is a true team, and even if u r not best geared, u preform flawlessly as a team.
For that reason stuffs like even 40% dmg boost from elol set must be ingame, nobody, especialy us - endgamers, wants to run elol for 10k time, and do it in 15 min coz team is slow (from team fault), so if team cant cover up in teamplay for lack in gear or experience i will be ALWAYS first on pull. Not coz i want outdps u, shame u or whetever. Coz i want still have this elol done in 8min, egwd done in 9min, etos done in 10min. And eDemo done in 8 min. Or as close to those numbers as possible. Coz that conetent is already boring after 10th time, and is like punishment after u have run it like 6k times (me and elol as example).
If i have to chose to leave team behind and smash pull alone, coz u r slow, and thanks to that it will make elol run shorter by 5 min at least. I will do it. Most of pugs says no words. Most preforms rly bad compared to top builds. I have nothing to speak with them about, so i wont never enjoy content played with them.
Effectivness is what matters, both in life, work and gaming.
Period.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
Normally, players with decent DPS move through dungeons at a faster pace - It means we can earn more AD with our limited playtime. It's not a matter of e-peen. Have you considered using a build optimized for decent DPS @arcofortep12 ? It'll help you clear dungeons faster.
You'll find if you run with any of the better CWs or GWFs or DPS classes at all, that dungeons are cleared far faster, because we have properly stacked stats that work with our build, and have tested our builds to find the most efficient selection of feats.
If you're having trouble with dungeons, check out one of these builds:
- http://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/551341/spellstorm-renegade-guide-death-is-the-best-crowd-control#latest
- http://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1210881/thaumaturges-time-to-shine-a-complete-guide#latest
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just like in real life efectiveness isnt all its the fun and happyness of your own life make it yours make what YOU want cos in the end this life is all we got.
-> to the player who wants to run a different build that does great in PVP even with mediocre gaer and is not relying heavily on bugs like damnation or fury, to name puppet at first and morderousflame second (wich might be associated to the spawning puppet killing a mob with that power, who know exactly)
beside this, "zeke" , I hope no ingame friend since he has a real bad "aura", was usefull to show, how much damage a GWF deals
He compares his damage to a BIS warlock with "maxed gear" and claims he was beaten by that, I can´t follow his arguments any more, maybe that´s why he runs in front like a maniac.
I stay on my opinion, your data without lolset from T1-dungeon is not representative for the overall performance of classes, you chose the wrong dungeon imo
CW 7% above the tank? not seriously
GWF 1/4 below a warlock? i doubt that, except you do your testing with a damnation lock, wich is obviously broken, and can´t be a measure for anything
Your CW loses 30% damage, enough left imo
I already met SS-CW´s doing same numbers as GWF in edemo, but all in all they can´t compete with GWF in the end
lolset deals 30% from overall damage for several classes, like GWF and TR
my emperical list for DPS without lolset will be like that:
1. GWF 2. Warlock 3.Hunter/CW 4. DC/GF/TR 5. OP
warlock will do a step froward maybe on par with GWF, CW and TR (hard times) will fall of
vs yours from T1 elol
1) SW: 86.48
2) HR: 68.16
3) GWF: 66
4) DC/GF: 61.38
5) TR: 52.8
6) CW: 39.6
7) OP: 32.01
this works in T1 and T2 and skirmish, edemo fury is better choice
I will contact you in case I respec some day to damnation-PVE, btw there is nothing bad about running any tree, I also could mention it´s bad to rely on SS-procs combined with lolset bonus