Mmmhh... i read a lot more posts from CWs here they say that GWFs dealing too much dps. And i dont see any "hate" from GWFs. All i can read is that that GWFs dont want a nerf, but they want a buff for other classes. If this is "hate" for you...ok. I thought this is a poll for LM set?
There are 2 ends of the spectrum here pando, there is GWF, which people say gets too much from the set and then there is CW. CW gets more from the set then GWF in most cases % wise, but nobody is complaining a fully specced dps CW with the elol set is OP (I am referring to an SS thaum build), rather, CW's are called balanced. Not take away 40% of a balanced classes dps, you just destroyed the classes viability. How long does class balance take? How long as the SW gone without adjustment, how long did it take to get storm spell adjusted? How long will it take to get the CW FIXED once such a change is made (since it would be a fix, once they do less damage then every class except paladin). It would probably take as long as its taking all those other classes to be adjusted....you know....3/4 mods.
Also: reworking the set does not mean necessarily to "nerf it". Just change the way it works. For example, make it work unlinked from buffs and weapon damage, normalizing it so that on every class you get the same amount of DPS boost. I think that, as usual, this community is quite short-sighted and selfish.
Read the thread title. Would you like lostmauth set to be ADJUSTED.
As i explained, it's not a matter of "nerf". It's a matter of changing the way it works. Right now, it works and scales with 1)weapon damage and 2)damage buffs. This makes the set bonus very floaty and unpredictable. Which is bad. What i proposed it to rework it giving it X damage (not "weapon damage"), affected by crit severity but not by damage buffs.
Now, "X" can be ANY value needed to let CWs keep the needed boost, while reducing the impact it has on GWFs DPS.
Now, while CWs get more "% wise", it's also known that the set procs on GWFs are way higher. The % is just lower because the overall DPS is higher. Let's say a CW DPS output is 100k, with 40k eLoL procs, making it 40% of their total DPS. A GWF DPS output is 240k, with 80k procs, making it 30% of their overall DPS. Which is lower in %, but double in bonus value.
If you want to get same procs through GWFs nerf, you need to get them down from 240k to 120k. Which is too low considering they do not bring anything else to the group.
If you change the set to give 40k procs on every class, CWs deal the same overall DPS output, while GWFs lose 40k eLoL procs.
You go from a 240k-100k--->140k difference to a 200k-100k--->100k difference
Which is already a huge rebalance. Without eLoL set on both classes it would become 160k-60k--->100k. The same. Not floating. Predictable and balanced.
Now, assuming we want at least a 50% difference (random number) going from a DPS only primary striker, to a class that brings also CC-utility, to keep the DPS-only class "appealing" for PvE, what is left to do is balance the classes, now without eLoL procs creating confusion.
So you get the DPS output without eLoL, after a rebalance, changed to
CW= 60k GWF=90k
And with eLoL it's 100k vs 150k. Which is balanced. 120k, instead, is not balanced and nobody would call a GWF for a puny 20% more damage, when another class can also bring 100% more utility, CC or buffs/debuffs compared to the destroyer.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
There are 2 ends of the spectrum here pando, there is GWF, which people say gets too much from the set and then there is CW. CW gets more from the set then GWF in most cases % wise, but nobody is complaining a fully specced dps CW with the elol set is OP (I am referring to an SS thaum build), rather, CW's are called balanced. Not take away 40% of a balanced classes dps, you just destroyed the classes viability. How long does class balance take? How long as the SW gone without adjustment, how long did it take to get storm spell adjusted? How long will it take to get the CW FIXED once such a change is made (since it would be a fix, once they do less damage then every class except paladin). It would probably take as long as its taking all those other classes to be adjusted....you know....3/4 mods.
Also: reworking the set does not mean necessarily to "nerf it". Just change the way it works. For example, make it work unlinked from buffs and weapon damage, normalizing it so that on every class you get the same amount of DPS boost. I think that, as usual, this community is quite short-sighted and selfish.
Read the thread title. Would you like lostmauth set to be ADJUSTED.
As i explained, it's not a matter of "nerf". It's a matter of changing the way it works. Right now, it works and scales with 1)weapon damage and 2)damage buffs. This makes the set bonus very floaty and unpredictable. Which is bad. What i proposed it to rework it giving it X damage (not "weapon damage"), affected by crit severity but not by damage buffs.
Now, "X" can be ANY value needed to let CWs keep the needed boost, while reducing the impact it has on GWFs DPS.
Now, while CWs get more "% wise", it's also known that the set procs on GWFs are way higher. The % is just lower because the overall DPS is higher. Let's say a CW DPS output is 100k, with 40k eLoL procs, making it 40% of their total DPS. A GWF DPS output is 240k, with 80k procs, making it 30% of their overall DPS. Which is lower in %, but double in bonus value.
If you want to get same procs through GWFs nerf, you need to get them down from 240k to 120k. Which is too low considering they do not bring anything else to the group.
If you change the set to give 40k procs on every class, CWs deal the same overall DPS output, while GWFs lose 40k eLoL procs.
You go from a 240k-100k--->140k difference to a 200k-100k--->100k difference
Which is already a huge rebalance. Without eLoL set on both classes it would become 160k-60k--->100k. The same. Not floating. Predictable and balanced.
Now, assuming we want at least a 50% difference (random number) going from a DPS only primary striker, to a class that brings also CC-utility, to keep the DPS-only class "appealing" for PvE, what is left to do is balance the classes, now without eLoL procs creating confusion.
So you get the DPS output without eLoL, after a rebalance, changed to
CW= 60k GWF=90k
And with eLoL it's 100k vs 150k. Which is balanced. 120k, instead, is not balanced and nobody would call a GWF for a puny 20% more damage, when another class can also bring 100% more utility, CC or buffs/debuffs compared to the destroyer.
Well, this is what it looks like more or less, using numbers to illustrate what its like, the base line of 100 is GWF ATM: With the elol set as it is: 1) GWF: 100 2) SW: 94 3) HR: 71 4) TR/DC/GF/CW: 66 5) OP: 33
Thats an approximation and for GF, DC and OP I am going off of DPS GF's, DC's and OP's that I know. This is taken at a +/- similar item level. If the elol set did a fixed amount of damage for all classes, how the classes compare would still follow the same metric as if the set didn't exist, to maintain the same degree of balance, either the set needs to give more to some classes then others, or TR and CW need to be buffed with the nerfing/adjusting of the set. Here is a question for you, does the CW provide enough utility for it to do similar damage to an oathbound paladin, or would you rather just take that dps specced OP?
that just shows how unbalanced this game is but you still cant defend broken items.... id like to see how things really are when they test all without elolset...going from 1.5k->4k ilvl that shows us then where we are at...then when elol set is fixed and start to work rebalancing classes.and that i mean real life players noobs/averages/bis/etc
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
that just shows how unbalanced this game is but you still cant defend broken items.... id like to see how things really are when they test all without elolset...going from 1.5k->4k ilvl that shows us then where we are at...then when elol set is fixed and start to work rebalancing classes.and that i mean real life players noobs/averages/bis/etc
That testing was with and without the elol set, thats not theory, I did 30 runs with premade groups where everyone had the elol set and 30 runs where nobody had it. That is what it looks like, I can provide combat logs and pictures from ACT to support it. The method I used was 1 run of elol with the elol set, then 1 run without, same group for each of the 2 runs. I am not just making numbers up or theorizing, that is what it looks like. You can also ask @silverkelt and @zekethesinner here as I did some of those runs with them as well.
from my opinion there is just too much to calculate and think that even 100runs with same players doesnt show the exact prosents...oh or did they all have 100% crit chance ? same buffs ? if so then those are just the absolute maximum numbers and that doesnt sho the balance at all...no lags every guy was able to do same things that in last dungeon ? every little thing makes the difference it can be even 10% +- from what you have calculated...
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
from my opinion there is just too much to calculate and think that even 100runs with same players doesnt show the exact prosents...oh or did they all have 100% crit chance ? same buffs ? if so then those are just the absolute maximum numbers and that doesnt sho the balance at all...no lags every guy was able to do same things that in last dungeon ? every little thing makes the difference it can be even 10% +- from what you have calculated...
I'm not going to do more testing to make you happy, either take the results of what I have done, or don't. I can post the complete combat logs of those runs if you like, but I am not going to test the issue any further. What I am sure of is I have tested this more then anyone else and that my results are the most accurate.
make next test with only weapons all same weapons.same crit% then same guys wear the set and goes same runs and no companions no buffs no boosts cos if they fix this they should go with that it gives weapon damage hit.make about 100-500runs take noobs/avgjoes/bis and see the results cos its the class balance thats the problem and you cant balance classes when there is broken items in the game or broken enchants.
There are 2 ends of the spectrum here pando, there is GWF, which people say gets too much from the set and then there is CW. CW gets more from the set then GWF in most cases % wise, but nobody is complaining a fully specced dps CW with the elol set is OP (I am referring to an SS thaum build), rather, CW's are called balanced. Not take away 40% of a balanced classes dps, you just destroyed the classes viability. How long does class balance take? How long as the SW gone without adjustment, how long did it take to get storm spell adjusted? How long will it take to get the CW FIXED once such a change is made (since it would be a fix, once they do less damage then every class except paladin). It would probably take as long as its taking all those other classes to be adjusted....you know....3/4 mods.
Also: reworking the set does not mean necessarily to "nerf it". Just change the way it works. For example, make it work unlinked from buffs and weapon damage, normalizing it so that on every class you get the same amount of DPS boost. I think that, as usual, this community is quite short-sighted and selfish.
Read the thread title. Would you like lostmauth set to be ADJUSTED.
As i explained, it's not a matter of "nerf". It's a matter of changing the way it works. Right now, it works and scales with 1)weapon damage and 2)damage buffs. This makes the set bonus very floaty and unpredictable. Which is bad. What i proposed it to rework it giving it X damage (not "weapon damage"), affected by crit severity but not by damage buffs.
Now, "X" can be ANY value needed to let CWs keep the needed boost, while reducing the impact it has on GWFs DPS.
Now, while CWs get more "% wise", it's also known that the set procs on GWFs are way higher. The % is just lower because the overall DPS is higher. Let's say a CW DPS output is 100k, with 40k eLoL procs, making it 40% of their total DPS. A GWF DPS output is 240k, with 80k procs, making it 30% of their overall DPS. Which is lower in %, but double in bonus value.
If you want to get same procs through GWFs nerf, you need to get them down from 240k to 120k. Which is too low considering they do not bring anything else to the group.
If you change the set to give 40k procs on every class, CWs deal the same overall DPS output, while GWFs lose 40k eLoL procs.
You go from a 240k-100k--->140k difference to a 200k-100k--->100k difference
Which is already a huge rebalance. Without eLoL set on both classes it would become 160k-60k--->100k. The same. Not floating. Predictable and balanced.
Now, assuming we want at least a 50% difference (random number) going from a DPS only primary striker, to a class that brings also CC-utility, to keep the DPS-only class "appealing" for PvE, what is left to do is balance the classes, now without eLoL procs creating confusion.
So you get the DPS output without eLoL, after a rebalance, changed to
CW= 60k GWF=90k
And with eLoL it's 100k vs 150k. Which is balanced. 120k, instead, is not balanced and nobody would call a GWF for a puny 20% more damage, when another class can also bring 100% more utility, CC or buffs/debuffs compared to the destroyer.
Well, this is what it looks like more or less, using numbers to illustrate what its like, the base line of 100 is GWF ATM: With the elol set as it is: 1) GWF: 100 2) SW: 94 3) HR: 71 4) TR/DC/GF/CW: 66 5) OP: 33
Thats an approximation and for GF, DC and OP I am going off of DPS GF's, DC's and OP's that I know. This is taken at a +/- similar item level. If the elol set did a fixed amount of damage for all classes, how the classes compare would still follow the same metric as if the set didn't exist, to maintain the same degree of balance, either the set needs to give more to some classes then others, or TR and CW need to be buffed with the nerfing/adjusting of the set. Here is a question for you, does the CW provide enough utility for it to do similar damage to an oathbound paladin, or would you rather just take that dps specced OP?
do you really want us to believe such a subjective summation of data, that´s, excuse me in advance, totally c.rap... I can show you data from a edemo run where a 3.2k GWF dealt 4x more damage than anyone else in the group, explantions? Do this in a T2 dungeon or a raid, where the mobs do not fall in one second running with a maxed group of player and every class can do long term damage on targets otherwise run that setup in elol with 1,8k green chars for example every singel palyer in this game who did some pug runs knows exactly the difference between GWF 1 with 3.2k GS and GWF 2 with 3.2k GS GWF 2 is a skilled player and runs a critbuild he outdamages GWF 1 three times, since GWF 1 is a non skilled player with wrong enchants and wrong build and wrong setup since all know lazalias solo missions it is not needed to demonstrate that GWF is overbuffed, even without lolset I run no lolset with my 2,4k GWF and i run a IV-PVP setup, I have the worng enchants, low crit, low gear, miss some boons and so on...but most other classes on same IL can´t compete compare the classes doing solo content....noone really wants me to go further into detail, GWF runs though level zones with ease, oter classes die 100 death
In case you want to compare those classes you first have to run dungeons with the current meta build in PVE, btw. there do exist also good GF in PVE dealing tons of damage, but these guys are rare. since i do pug all day, I met so manny classes and player , I do not need any datas to be shown, I see them every day and that "statistic" is ten times better than yours
Thats an approximation and for GF, DC and OP I am going off of DPS GF's, DC's and OP's that I know. This is taken at a +/- similar item level. If the elol set did a fixed amount of damage for all classes, how the classes compare would still follow the same metric as if the set didn't exist, to maintain the same degree of balance, either the set needs to give more to some classes then others, or TR and CW need to be buffed with the nerfing/adjusting of the set. Here is a question for you, does the CW provide enough utility for it to do similar damage to an oathbound paladin, or would you rather just take that dps specced OP?
If those are the numbers, it shows even more how fixing eLoL set would alone bring GWFs damage much more in line. From 1st DD to 3rd without the set... Your data in my opinion support even more my idea that GWFs need more like a rework than a plain nerf. It's 66 vs 39, primary striker DPS only vs secondary striker CCer. HR in second place.
I ask: then why is everybody jumping on GWFs if they, without eLoL set, are 3rd and out-DPS CWs by roughly 60-70%, with HRs and SWs ahead? Answer: because eLoL is what makes them jump ahead. If you nerf GWFs, how would a non-eLoL GWF perform? Same DPS as a non-eLoL CW?
Also: i'm sorry if CWs CC is not needed, but it's insane to ruin another class just because the devs couldn't design dungeons and classes to make CC needed.
GWFs can't be the scapegoat for all of you guys everytime.
eLoL is floating/bad design--->nerf GWFs My CC is not used in current dungeon design--->nerf GWFs My class lacks survivability tools--->nerf GWFs OPs make groups immortal and only DPS matters--->nerf GWFs.
Your data show this. You guys want GWFs to be the scapegoat for a broken artifact set. You spent money or time or both on your eLoL set. I spent time and effort on my eLoL set too, and on my 2yrs old GWF toon. Which you want to nerf again randomly, just to do your interests.
Guys. Get a clue about how to balance this game cause the devs are reading. And what comes out from your data is that the problems are elsewhere, but you all want to make GWFs pay for them.
With the elol set as it is: 1) GWF: 100 2) SW: 94 3) HR: 71 4) TR/DC/GF/CW: 66 5) OP: 33
I see GWFs in-line/ a bit behind HRs who are always crying for a buff and claim they are "the weakest class". I see GFs and DCs (defenders, non-DPS classes) awfully close to GWFs (primary, DPS-only). I see TR not in line, being a primary striker should be up there with HRs/GWFs. I see CWs in need for a dungeon design that actually makes their CC valuable. I see eLoL set acting weird and in need for a "normalization".
What i don't see is the need for the massive GWFs nerf everyone is crying for.
What i wrote is exactly on spot, seeing your data. That kind of change would bring GWF down. Even too much considering SWs would deal way more damage than GWFs, that way.
I'm sorry if your CC is not useful, but why should my GWF pay for it? Why exactly? Why my GWF should get nerfed in place of a broken set? Because the spoiled brats want something else to pay, and not their expensive and broken toy?
from my opinion there is just too much to calculate and think that even 100runs with same players doesnt show the exact prosents...oh or did they all have 100% crit chance ? same buffs ? if so then those are just the absolute maximum numbers and that doesnt sho the balance at all...no lags every guy was able to do same things that in last dungeon ? every little thing makes the difference it can be even 10% +- from what you have calculated...
Those datas are the closest thing to a real data that this community can give. What are the datas then? The kid that jumps on forums and says "a GWF scored 3 times more than me in last eLoL run, neerfffff pleaseeeee"? Commanderdata saying that he wants GWFs "nerfed to the ground"?
Don't make me laugh.
This community should seriously get a clue and start giving real feedback, instead of selfish, superficial nerf requests.
yep you have and shows us how broken the item really is.
It shows that nerfing it would break two classes without any buffs to their damage. Fabricant brings up the CW vs OP comparison but it's not like there would be much incentive to take a TR over a GF either.
from my opinion there is just too much to calculate and think that even 100runs with same players doesnt show the exact prosents...oh or did they all have 100% crit chance ? same buffs ? if so then those are just the absolute maximum numbers and that doesnt sho the balance at all...no lags every guy was able to do same things that in last dungeon ? every little thing makes the difference it can be even 10% +- from what you have calculated...
This would just make the classes that are stacking crit now worse than they appear on that chart. If that CW is doing that much less damage with 70-100% crit how do you think it will turn out with 50% crit? But that's not really all that relevant to the effect of the elol set because the only way it's actually good is if you're stacking a lot of crit and stacking crit is still going to be the best way to boost your damage.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Thats an approximation and for GF, DC and OP I am going off of DPS GF's, DC's and OP's that I know. This is taken at a +/- similar item level. If the elol set did a fixed amount of damage for all classes, how the classes compare would still follow the same metric as if the set didn't exist, to maintain the same degree of balance, either the set needs to give more to some classes then others, or TR and CW need to be buffed with the nerfing/adjusting of the set. Here is a question for you, does the CW provide enough utility for it to do similar damage to an oathbound paladin, or would you rather just take that dps specced OP?
If those are the numbers, it shows even more how fixing eLoL set would alone bring GWFs damage much more in line. From 1st DD to 3rd without the set... Your data in my opinion support even more my idea that GWFs need more like a rework than a plain nerf. It's 66 vs 39, primary striker DPS only vs secondary striker CCer. HR in second place.
I ask: then why is everybody jumping on GWFs if they, without eLoL set, are 3rd and out-DPS CWs by roughly 60-70%, with HRs and SWs ahead? Answer: because eLoL is what makes them jump ahead. If you nerf GWFs, how would a non-eLoL GWF perform? Same DPS as a non-eLoL CW?
Also: i'm sorry if CWs CC is not needed, but it's insane to ruin another class just because the devs couldn't design dungeons and classes to make CC needed.
GWFs can't be the scapegoat for all of you guys everytime.
eLoL is floating/bad design--->nerf GWFs My CC is not used in current dungeon design--->nerf GWFs My class lacks survivability tools--->nerf GWFs OPs make groups immortal and only DPS matters--->nerf GWFs.
Your data show this. You guys want GWFs to be the scapegoat for a broken artifact set. You spent money or time or both on your eLoL set. I spent time and effort on my eLoL set too, and on my 2yrs old GWF toon. Which you want to nerf again randomly, just to do your interests.
Guys. Get a clue about how to balance this game cause the devs are reading. And what comes out from your data is that the problems are elsewhere, but you all want to make GWFs pay for them.
With the elol set as it is: 1) GWF: 100 2) SW: 94 3) HR: 71 4) TR/DC/GF/CW: 66 5) OP: 33
I see GWFs in-line/ a bit behind HRs who are always crying for a buff and claim they are "the weakest class". I see GFs and DCs (defenders, non-DPS classes) awfully close to GWFs (primary, DPS-only). I see TR not in line, being a primary striker should be up there with HRs/GWFs. I see CWs in need for a dungeon design that actually makes their CC valuable. I see eLoL set acting weird and in need for a "normalization".
What i don't see is the need for the massive GWFs nerf everyone is crying for.
What i wrote is exactly on spot, seeing your data. That kind of change would bring GWF down. Even too much considering SWs would deal way more damage than GWFs, that way.
I'm sorry if your CC is not useful, but why should my GWF pay for it? Why exactly? Why my GWF should get nerfed in place of a broken set? Because the spoiled brats want something else to pay, and not their expensive and broken toy?
Can I also point out that HR's have better CC then us wizard's do, so your argument about our CC is kind of invalid in that case since they got better damage then GWF's and better CC then wizards. DC/GF/HR all provide better utility then CW and with the nerf, they would provide substantially more damage as well.
There are 2 ends of the spectrum here pando, there is GWF, which people say gets too much from the set and then there is CW. CW gets more from the set then GWF in most cases % wise, but nobody is complaining a fully specced dps CW with the elol set is OP (I am referring to an SS thaum build), rather, CW's are called balanced. Not take away 40% of a balanced classes dps, you just destroyed the classes viability. How long does class balance take? How long as the SW gone without adjustment, how long did it take to get storm spell adjusted? How long will it take to get the CW FIXED once such a change is made (since it would be a fix, once they do less damage then every class except paladin). It would probably take as long as its taking all those other classes to be adjusted....you know....3/4 mods.
Also: reworking the set does not mean necessarily to "nerf it". Just change the way it works. For example, make it work unlinked from buffs and weapon damage, normalizing it so that on every class you get the same amount of DPS boost. I think that, as usual, this community is quite short-sighted and selfish.
Read the thread title. Would you like lostmauth set to be ADJUSTED.
As i explained, it's not a matter of "nerf". It's a matter of changing the way it works. Right now, it works and scales with 1)weapon damage and 2)damage buffs. This makes the set bonus very floaty and unpredictable. Which is bad. What i proposed it to rework it giving it X damage (not "weapon damage"), affected by crit severity but not by damage buffs.
Now, "X" can be ANY value needed to let CWs keep the needed boost, while reducing the impact it has on GWFs DPS.
Now, while CWs get more "% wise", it's also known that the set procs on GWFs are way higher. The % is just lower because the overall DPS is higher. Let's say a CW DPS output is 100k, with 40k eLoL procs, making it 40% of their total DPS. A GWF DPS output is 240k, with 80k procs, making it 30% of their overall DPS. Which is lower in %, but double in bonus value.
If you want to get same procs through GWFs nerf, you need to get them down from 240k to 120k. Which is too low considering they do not bring anything else to the group.
If you change the set to give 40k procs on every class, CWs deal the same overall DPS output, while GWFs lose 40k eLoL procs.
You go from a 240k-100k--->140k difference to a 200k-100k--->100k difference
Which is already a huge rebalance. Without eLoL set on both classes it would become 160k-60k--->100k. The same. Not floating. Predictable and balanced.
Now, assuming we want at least a 50% difference (random number) going from a DPS only primary striker, to a class that brings also CC-utility, to keep the DPS-only class "appealing" for PvE, what is left to do is balance the classes, now without eLoL procs creating confusion.
So you get the DPS output without eLoL, after a rebalance, changed to
CW= 60k GWF=90k
And with eLoL it's 100k vs 150k. Which is balanced. 120k, instead, is not balanced and nobody would call a GWF for a puny 20% more damage, when another class can also bring 100% more utility, CC or buffs/debuffs compared to the destroyer.
Well, this is what it looks like more or less, using numbers to illustrate what its like, the base line of 100 is GWF ATM: With the elol set as it is: 1) GWF: 100 2) SW: 94 3) HR: 71 4) TR/DC/GF/CW: 66 5) OP: 33
Thats an approximation and for GF, DC and OP I am going off of DPS GF's, DC's and OP's that I know. This is taken at a +/- similar item level. If the elol set did a fixed amount of damage for all classes, how the classes compare would still follow the same metric as if the set didn't exist, to maintain the same degree of balance, either the set needs to give more to some classes then others, or TR and CW need to be buffed with the nerfing/adjusting of the set. Here is a question for you, does the CW provide enough utility for it to do similar damage to an oathbound paladin, or would you rather just take that dps specced OP?
do you really want us to believe such a subjective summation of data, that´s, excuse me in advance, totally c.rap... I can show you data from a edemo run where a 3.2k GWF dealt 4x more damage than anyone else in the group, explantions? Do this in a T2 dungeon or a raid, where the mobs do not fall in one second running with a maxed group of player and every class can do long term damage on targets otherwise run that setup in elol with 1,8k green chars for example
No offense @schietindebux but although I have never ran with you, I know good SW's who have and they call you "below average to average at best". SW is a class that has a much higher skill requirement then GWF, it can achieve similar results as a GWF, but it rarely occurs because most SW's are bad. GWF in contrast, doesn't require nearly as much skill to achieve those levels of dps, which means that you see it more often. Furthermore, there are likely more GWF's in the community then SW's, so you see them more often, which means you get beaten by them more often.
Thats an approximation and for GF, DC and OP I am going off of DPS GF's, DC's and OP's that I know. This is taken at a +/- similar item level. If the elol set did a fixed amount of damage for all classes, how the classes compare would still follow the same metric as if the set didn't exist, to maintain the same degree of balance, either the set needs to give more to some classes then others, or TR and CW need to be buffed with the nerfing/adjusting of the set. Here is a question for you, does the CW provide enough utility for it to do similar damage to an oathbound paladin, or would you rather just take that dps specced OP?
If those are the numbers, it shows even more how fixing eLoL set would alone bring GWFs damage much more in line. From 1st DD to 3rd without the set... Your data in my opinion support even more my idea that GWFs need more like a rework than a plain nerf. It's 66 vs 39, primary striker DPS only vs secondary striker CCer. HR in second place.
I ask: then why is everybody jumping on GWFs if they, without eLoL set, are 3rd and out-DPS CWs by roughly 60-70%, with HRs and SWs ahead? Answer: because eLoL is what makes them jump ahead. If you nerf GWFs, how would a non-eLoL GWF perform? Same DPS as a non-eLoL CW?
Also: i'm sorry if CWs CC is not needed, but it's insane to ruin another class just because the devs couldn't design dungeons and classes to make CC needed.
GWFs can't be the scapegoat for all of you guys everytime.
eLoL is floating/bad design--->nerf GWFs My CC is not used in current dungeon design--->nerf GWFs My class lacks survivability tools--->nerf GWFs OPs make groups immortal and only DPS matters--->nerf GWFs.
Your data show this. You guys want GWFs to be the scapegoat for a broken artifact set. You spent money or time or both on your eLoL set. I spent time and effort on my eLoL set too, and on my 2yrs old GWF toon. Which you want to nerf again randomly, just to do your interests.
Guys. Get a clue about how to balance this game cause the devs are reading. And what comes out from your data is that the problems are elsewhere, but you all want to make GWFs pay for them.
With the elol set as it is: 1) GWF: 100 2) SW: 94 3) HR: 71 4) TR/DC/GF/CW: 66 5) OP: 33
I see GWFs in-line/ a bit behind HRs who are always crying for a buff and claim they are "the weakest class". I see GFs and DCs (defenders, non-DPS classes) awfully close to GWFs (primary, DPS-only). I see TR not in line, being a primary striker should be up there with HRs/GWFs. I see CWs in need for a dungeon design that actually makes their CC valuable. I see eLoL set acting weird and in need for a "normalization".
What i don't see is the need for the massive GWFs nerf everyone is crying for.
What i wrote is exactly on spot, seeing your data. That kind of change would bring GWF down. Even too much considering SWs would deal way more damage than GWFs, that way.
I'm sorry if your CC is not useful, but why should my GWF pay for it? Why exactly? Why my GWF should get nerfed in place of a broken set? Because the spoiled brats want something else to pay, and not their expensive and broken toy?
That's the thing, GWF isn't in line behind HR. It's more like it's behind DC/GF/HR because they provide so much more utility that GWF is just a bad DPS class at that point. So you can cry about the elol set breaking everything but it's the one thing keeping GWFs relevant. And you know that if they actually do nerf the elol set we'd be waiting multiple mods for them to fix classes such that they're relatively balanced without it.
2) HR: 68.16 btw is this trapper,archer or combat ??
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited January 2016
No
Just bear in mind, that data was taken from runs with people who do min/max their characters, so HR's playing the 1 way that makes their char viable and do decent damage, GF's specced to do damage (not for tanking), DC's specced for damage (not healing or support), SW's playing their class properly. That info is in no way representative of the entire game, it just represents what damage looks like in groups with people trying to get the most out of their builds.
Yes, temptation warlocks will do a lot worse, Oppressor CW's will perform worse, the HR's not playing the 1 build what works will do worse and GWF's not destroyer will do worse. The same is true for all the "non optimised builds".
ok so now you do realise that games cant be balanced with making 1 item that is so powerful that it creates the balance between classes...so they just have to fix it or balance classes and bring the fix at the same time.dont care but still it needs to be fixed. so the best way to do this might be in same patch FIX elol and bring class balances but that might be too much to ask.
ok so now you do realise that games cant be balanced with making 1 item that is so powerful that it creates the balance between classes...so they just have to fix it or balance classes and bring the fix at the same time.dont care but still it needs to be fixed. so the best way to do this might be in same patch FIX elol and bring class balances but that might be too much to ask.
You would have to be insane to think Cryptic would take less than two years to achieve what you're suggesting.
There are 2 ends of the spectrum here pando, there is GWF, which people say gets too much from the set and then there is CW. CW gets more from the set then GWF in most cases % wise, but nobody is complaining a fully specced dps CW with the elol set is OP (I am referring to an SS thaum build), rather, CW's are called balanced. Not take away 40% of a balanced classes dps, you just destroyed the classes viability. How long does class balance take? How long as the SW gone without adjustment, how long did it take to get storm spell adjusted? How long will it take to get the CW FIXED once such a change is made (since it would be a fix, once they do less damage then every class except paladin). It would probably take as long as its taking all those other classes to be adjusted....you know....3/4 mods.
Also: reworking the set does not mean necessarily to "nerf it". Just change the way it works. For example, make it work unlinked from buffs and weapon damage, normalizing it so that on every class you get the same amount of DPS boost. I think that, as usual, this community is quite short-sighted and selfish.
Read the thread title. Would you like lostmauth set to be ADJUSTED.
As i explained, it's not a matter of "nerf". It's a matter of changing the way it works. Right now, it works and scales with 1)weapon damage and 2)damage buffs. This makes the set bonus very floaty and unpredictable. Which is bad. What i proposed it to rework it giving it X damage (not "weapon damage"), affected by crit severity but not by damage buffs.
Now, "X" can be ANY value needed to let CWs keep the needed boost, while reducing the impact it has on GWFs DPS.
Now, while CWs get more "% wise", it's also known that the set procs on GWFs are way higher. The % is just lower because the overall DPS is higher. Let's say a CW DPS output is 100k, with 40k eLoL procs, making it 40% of their total DPS. A GWF DPS output is 240k, with 80k procs, making it 30% of their overall DPS. Which is lower in %, but double in bonus value.
If you want to get same procs through GWFs nerf, you need to get them down from 240k to 120k. Which is too low considering they do not bring anything else to the group.
If you change the set to give 40k procs on every class, CWs deal the same overall DPS output, while GWFs lose 40k eLoL procs.
You go from a 240k-100k--->140k difference to a 200k-100k--->100k difference
Which is already a huge rebalance. Without eLoL set on both classes it would become 160k-60k--->100k. The same. Not floating. Predictable and balanced.
Now, assuming we want at least a 50% difference (random number) going from a DPS only primary striker, to a class that brings also CC-utility, to keep the DPS-only class "appealing" for PvE, what is left to do is balance the classes, now without eLoL procs creating confusion.
So you get the DPS output without eLoL, after a rebalance, changed to
CW= 60k GWF=90k
And with eLoL it's 100k vs 150k. Which is balanced. 120k, instead, is not balanced and nobody would call a GWF for a puny 20% more damage, when another class can also bring 100% more utility, CC or buffs/debuffs compared to the destroyer.
Well, this is what it looks like more or less, using numbers to illustrate what its like, the base line of 100 is GWF ATM: With the elol set as it is: 1) GWF: 100 2) SW: 94 3) HR: 71 4) TR/DC/GF/CW: 66 5) OP: 33
Thats an approximation and for GF, DC and OP I am going off of DPS GF's, DC's and OP's that I know. This is taken at a +/- similar item level. If the elol set did a fixed amount of damage for all classes, how the classes compare would still follow the same metric as if the set didn't exist, to maintain the same degree of balance, either the set needs to give more to some classes then others, or TR and CW need to be buffed with the nerfing/adjusting of the set. Here is a question for you, does the CW provide enough utility for it to do similar damage to an oathbound paladin, or would you rather just take that dps specced OP?
do you really want us to believe such a subjective summation of data, that´s, excuse me in advance, totally c.rap... I can show you data from a edemo run where a 3.2k GWF dealt 4x more damage than anyone else in the group, explantions? Do this in a T2 dungeon or a raid, where the mobs do not fall in one second running with a maxed group of player and every class can do long term damage on targets otherwise run that setup in elol with 1,8k green chars for example
No offense @schietindebux but although I have never ran with you, I know good SW's who have and they call you "below average to average at best". SW is a class that has a much higher skill requirement then GWF, it can achieve similar results as a GWF, but it rarely occurs because most SW's are bad. GWF in contrast, doesn't require nearly as much skill to achieve those levels of dps, which means that you see it more often. Furthermore, there are likely more GWF's in the community then SW's, so you see them more often, which means you get beaten by them more often.
no offence to them , name them and I will answer, because thats´s for sure an offence born out of your small sight of NWO, running premades all time we can do runs for sure, pm me in game, I run a templock PVP setup atm , but do not fear to compete, just do an edemo an elol and some more Quallo in game handle is the same, show me your skill the only warlock btw i did a testrun was btfw, in the end I did more than good, but tbh I never run with any other warlocks so far doing testings and normally i pug , so I am curious about the names? who might that be? so waiting for your invite
PS: the warlocks you probably talk of, who deal these ammounts of damage, rely in most cases on a bug 1. damnationpuppet (i run that build for long) or 2. morderous flame bug (fury tree) that deals up to 11 mio hits on bosses (as shown by fernuu) 2. but in the sum warlocks are definitely in a good spot, not to get me wrong, this calss need no buff by sure , it needs more a rework to have variety and options beside using 4 powers all day and one daily
SW is a class that has a much higher skill requirement then GWF, it can achieve similar results as a GWF, but it rarely occurs because most SW's are bad. GWF in contrast, doesn't require nearly as much skill to achieve those levels of dps
I have to disagree on GWF not requiring "nearly as much skill to achieve those levels of DPS". I work my HAMSTER off for very point of damage, and when I'm running a dungeon without a perma-bubble OP, I still get one-shotted if I'm not really careful. Because I understand how powers stack and how to squeeze every ounce of DPS out of my (admittedly, mediocre) character, I don't so much have a "rotation" as I have an "outline", because combat is dynamic, changing from round to round. It's not like my OP that I literally hold down left click, then Q E R and pop my bubble when it goes away. For every fight. There is no variation at all, because other than standing there, taking a beating, I don't have many other options to entertain myself through a fight.
Now... having said that...
1) I have run with @thefabricant a couple of times, and he has ALWAYS out-DPSed my GWF... the last run I was on with him, he nearly doubled my DPS... on a CW. While I'm not one of those "Super GWFs", I'm not exactly a slouch, either. So if Fab says he ran some tests, and came up with such and such for results, I tend to believe him. As should you.
2) Good SWs are hard to find. Great SWs are one in a million. I am constantly being out-DPSed by SWs with comparable gear. I have a SW. She's useless. Because it's a completely different world, playing SW, than it is a GWF, or even other DPS-y spellcasters like CW. My hat is off to anyone who can take a "squishlock" and outperform everyone... that's a major accomplishment and a half in my eyes.
I also stongly believe that @pando83 nailed it right on the head
GWFs can't be the scapegoat for all of you guys everytime.
And honestly, that's what I see in these forums. I've seen more hate towards GWF than any other class, with maybe the exception of OP.
It's absolutely no wonder there hasn't been any "class balancing" due to the sheer volume that every single character class has cried out for nerfing every other character class. "I got ROFLstomped by a TR, NERF TRs!", and meanwhile, in the TR forum: "I got ROFLstomped by a DC, NERF DCs!", and in the DC forum: "I got ROFLstomped by a potato, NERF POTATOES!" (ad nauseum).
But, as a primary striker with no crowd control or healing or AoE or the ability to turn completely invisible... yeah.. cut the class a break. GWFs are big and dumb and all they can do is swing a sword. And they do it well.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
There are 2 ends of the spectrum here pando, there is GWF, which people say gets too much from the set and then there is CW. CW gets more from the set then GWF in most cases % wise, but nobody is complaining a fully specced dps CW with the elol set is OP (I am referring to an SS thaum build), rather, CW's are called balanced. Not take away 40% of a balanced classes dps, you just destroyed the classes viability. How long does class balance take? How long as the SW gone without adjustment, how long did it take to get storm spell adjusted? How long will it take to get the CW FIXED once such a change is made (since it would be a fix, once they do less damage then every class except paladin). It would probably take as long as its taking all those other classes to be adjusted....you know....3/4 mods.
Also: reworking the set does not mean necessarily to "nerf it". Just change the way it works. For example, make it work unlinked from buffs and weapon damage, normalizing it so that on every class you get the same amount of DPS boost. I think that, as usual, this community is quite short-sighted and selfish.
Read the thread title. Would you like lostmauth set to be ADJUSTED.
As i explained, it's not a matter of "nerf". It's a matter of changing the way it works. Right now, it works and scales with 1)weapon damage and 2)damage buffs. This makes the set bonus very floaty and unpredictable. Which is bad. What i proposed it to rework it giving it X damage (not "weapon damage"), affected by crit severity but not by damage buffs.
Now, "X" can be ANY value needed to let CWs keep the needed boost, while reducing the impact it has on GWFs DPS.
Now, while CWs get more "% wise", it's also known that the set procs on GWFs are way higher. The % is just lower because the overall DPS is higher. Let's say a CW DPS output is 100k, with 40k eLoL procs, making it 40% of their total DPS. A GWF DPS output is 240k, with 80k procs, making it 30% of their overall DPS. Which is lower in %, but double in bonus value.
If you want to get same procs through GWFs nerf, you need to get them down from 240k to 120k. Which is too low considering they do not bring anything else to the group.
If you change the set to give 40k procs on every class, CWs deal the same overall DPS output, while GWFs lose 40k eLoL procs.
You go from a 240k-100k--->140k difference to a 200k-100k--->100k difference
Which is already a huge rebalance. Without eLoL set on both classes it would become 160k-60k--->100k. The same. Not floating. Predictable and balanced.
Now, assuming we want at least a 50% difference (random number) going from a DPS only primary striker, to a class that brings also CC-utility, to keep the DPS-only class "appealing" for PvE, what is left to do is balance the classes, now without eLoL procs creating confusion.
So you get the DPS output without eLoL, after a rebalance, changed to
CW= 60k GWF=90k
And with eLoL it's 100k vs 150k. Which is balanced. 120k, instead, is not balanced and nobody would call a GWF for a puny 20% more damage, when another class can also bring 100% more utility, CC or buffs/debuffs compared to the destroyer.
Well, this is what it looks like more or less, using numbers to illustrate what its like, the base line of 100 is GWF ATM: With the elol set as it is: 1) GWF: 100 2) SW: 94 3) HR: 71 4) TR/DC/GF/CW: 66 5) OP: 33
Thats an approximation and for GF, DC and OP I am going off of DPS GF's, DC's and OP's that I know. This is taken at a +/- similar item level. If the elol set did a fixed amount of damage for all classes, how the classes compare would still follow the same metric as if the set didn't exist, to maintain the same degree of balance, either the set needs to give more to some classes then others, or TR and CW need to be buffed with the nerfing/adjusting of the set. Here is a question for you, does the CW provide enough utility for it to do similar damage to an oathbound paladin, or would you rather just take that dps specced OP?
do you really want us to believe such a subjective summation of data, that´s, excuse me in advance, totally c.rap... I can show you data from a edemo run where a 3.2k GWF dealt 4x more damage than anyone else in the group, explantions? Do this in a T2 dungeon or a raid, where the mobs do not fall in one second running with a maxed group of player and every class can do long term damage on targets otherwise run that setup in elol with 1,8k green chars for example
No offense @schietindebux but although I have never ran with you, I know good SW's who have and they call you "below average to average at best". SW is a class that has a much higher skill requirement then GWF, it can achieve similar results as a GWF, but it rarely occurs because most SW's are bad. GWF in contrast, doesn't require nearly as much skill to achieve those levels of dps, which means that you see it more often. Furthermore, there are likely more GWF's in the community then SW's, so you see them more often, which means you get beaten by them more often.
no offence to them , name them and I will answer, because thats´s for sure an offence born out of your small sight of NWO, running premades all time we can do runs for sure, pm me in game, I run a templock PVP setup atm , but do not fear to compete, just do an edemo an elol and some more Quallo in game handle is the same, show me your skill the only warlock btw i did a testrun was btfw, in the end I did more than good, but tbh I never run with any other warlocks so far doing testings and normally i pug , so I am curious about the names? who might that be? so waiting for your invite
I will invite after my daily elol runs (I am about half way through), we can do eCC or something. I don't have any SW's online on my FL atm so you won't be able to compare youself to them, but you will be able to compare yourself to me or my friends if you like. One of the SW's who said that about you was your guildie Orion/Daigotsu/Whatever he is calling himself now (I swear he has a different name every time I check my fl).
from my opinion there is just too much to calculate and think that even 100runs with same players doesnt show the exact prosents...oh or did they all have 100% crit chance ? same buffs ? if so then those are just the absolute maximum numbers and that doesnt sho the balance at all...no lags every guy was able to do same things that in last dungeon ? every little thing makes the difference it can be even 10% +- from what you have calculated...
Those datas are the closest thing to a real data that this community can give. What are the datas then? The kid that jumps on forums and says "a GWF scored 3 times more than me in last eLoL run, neerfffff pleaseeeee"? Commanderdata saying that he wants GWFs "nerfed to the ground"?
Don't make me laugh.
This community should seriously get a clue and start giving real feedback, instead of selfish, superficial nerf requests.
since I play a GWF and run dungeon and leveld different classes I can simply not join this, its plain wrong and beside some inexperienced forumuser there are not many player in game who really will believe this, lol
There are 2 ends of the spectrum here pando, there is GWF, which people say gets too much from the set and then there is CW. CW gets more from the set then GWF in most cases % wise, but nobody is complaining a fully specced dps CW with the elol set is OP (I am referring to an SS thaum build), rather, CW's are called balanced. Not take away 40% of a balanced classes dps, you just destroyed the classes viability. How long does class balance take? How long as the SW gone without adjustment, how long did it take to get storm spell adjusted? How long will it take to get the CW FIXED once such a change is made (since it would be a fix, once they do less damage then every class except paladin). It would probably take as long as its taking all those other classes to be adjusted....you know....3/4 mods.
Also: reworking the set does not mean necessarily to "nerf it". Just change the way it works. For example, make it work unlinked from buffs and weapon damage, normalizing it so that on every class you get the same amount of DPS boost. I think that, as usual, this community is quite short-sighted and selfish.
Read the thread title. Would you like lostmauth set to be ADJUSTED.
As i explained, it's not a matter of "nerf". It's a matter of changing the way it works. Right now, it works and scales with 1)weapon damage and 2)damage buffs. This makes the set bonus very floaty and unpredictable. Which is bad. What i proposed it to rework it giving it X damage (not "weapon damage"), affected by crit severity but not by damage buffs.
Now, "X" can be ANY value needed to let CWs keep the needed boost, while reducing the impact it has on GWFs DPS.
Now, while CWs get more "% wise", it's also known that the set procs on GWFs are way higher. The % is just lower because the overall DPS is higher. Let's say a CW DPS output is 100k, with 40k eLoL procs, making it 40% of their total DPS. A GWF DPS output is 240k, with 80k procs, making it 30% of their overall DPS. Which is lower in %, but double in bonus value.
If you want to get same procs through GWFs nerf, you need to get them down from 240k to 120k. Which is too low considering they do not bring anything else to the group.
If you change the set to give 40k procs on every class, CWs deal the same overall DPS output, while GWFs lose 40k eLoL procs.
You go from a 240k-100k--->140k difference to a 200k-100k--->100k difference
Which is already a huge rebalance. Without eLoL set on both classes it would become 160k-60k--->100k. The same. Not floating. Predictable and balanced.
Now, assuming we want at least a 50% difference (random number) going from a DPS only primary striker, to a class that brings also CC-utility, to keep the DPS-only class "appealing" for PvE, what is left to do is balance the classes, now without eLoL procs creating confusion.
So you get the DPS output without eLoL, after a rebalance, changed to
CW= 60k GWF=90k
And with eLoL it's 100k vs 150k. Which is balanced. 120k, instead, is not balanced and nobody would call a GWF for a puny 20% more damage, when another class can also bring 100% more utility, CC or buffs/debuffs compared to the destroyer.
Well, this is what it looks like more or less, using numbers to illustrate what its like, the base line of 100 is GWF ATM: With the elol set as it is: 1) GWF: 100 2) SW: 94 3) HR: 71 4) TR/DC/GF/CW: 66 5) OP: 33
Thats an approximation and for GF, DC and OP I am going off of DPS GF's, DC's and OP's that I know. This is taken at a +/- similar item level. If the elol set did a fixed amount of damage for all classes, how the classes compare would still follow the same metric as if the set didn't exist, to maintain the same degree of balance, either the set needs to give more to some classes then others, or TR and CW need to be buffed with the nerfing/adjusting of the set. Here is a question for you, does the CW provide enough utility for it to do similar damage to an oathbound paladin, or would you rather just take that dps specced OP?
do you really want us to believe such a subjective summation of data, that´s, excuse me in advance, totally c.rap... I can show you data from a edemo run where a 3.2k GWF dealt 4x more damage than anyone else in the group, explantions? Do this in a T2 dungeon or a raid, where the mobs do not fall in one second running with a maxed group of player and every class can do long term damage on targets otherwise run that setup in elol with 1,8k green chars for example
No offense @schietindebux but although I have never ran with you, I know good SW's who have and they call you "below average to average at best". SW is a class that has a much higher skill requirement then GWF, it can achieve similar results as a GWF, but it rarely occurs because most SW's are bad. GWF in contrast, doesn't require nearly as much skill to achieve those levels of dps, which means that you see it more often. Furthermore, there are likely more GWF's in the community then SW's, so you see them more often, which means you get beaten by them more often.
no offence to them , name them and I will answer, because thats´s for sure an offence born out of your small sight of NWO, running premades all time we can do runs for sure, pm me in game, I run a templock PVP setup atm , but do not fear to compete, just do an edemo an elol and some more Quallo in game handle is the same, show me your skill the only warlock btw i did a testrun was btfw, in the end I did more than good, but tbh I never run with any other warlocks so far doing testings and normally i pug , so I am curious about the names? who might that be? so waiting for your invite
I will invite after my daily elol runs (I am about half way through), we can do eCC or something. I don't have any SW's online on my FL atm so you won't be able to compare youself to them, but you will be able to compare yourself to me or my friends if you like. One of the SW's who said that about you was your guildie Orion/Daigotsu/Whatever he is calling himself now (I swear he has a different name every time I check my fl).
interesting, so you say my guild leader calls me a bad performig warlock.... i hardly can believe what you say, because normally he is more a diplomatic type, never offending like I do
Comments
I thought this is a poll for LM set?
Would you like lostmauth set to be ADJUSTED.
As i explained, it's not a matter of "nerf". It's a matter of changing the way it works.
Right now, it works and scales with 1)weapon damage and 2)damage buffs.
This makes the set bonus very floaty and unpredictable. Which is bad.
What i proposed it to rework it giving it X damage (not "weapon damage"), affected by crit severity but not by damage buffs.
Now, "X" can be ANY value needed to let CWs keep the needed boost, while reducing the impact it has on GWFs DPS.
Now, while CWs get more "% wise", it's also known that the set procs on GWFs are way higher. The % is just lower because the overall DPS is higher. Let's say a CW DPS output is 100k, with 40k eLoL procs, making it 40% of their total DPS. A GWF DPS output is 240k, with 80k procs, making it 30% of their overall DPS. Which is lower in %, but double in bonus value.
If you want to get same procs through GWFs nerf, you need to get them down from 240k to 120k. Which is too low considering they do not bring anything else to the group.
If you change the set to give 40k procs on every class, CWs deal the same overall DPS output, while GWFs lose 40k eLoL procs.
You go from a 240k-100k--->140k difference to a 200k-100k--->100k difference
Which is already a huge rebalance.
Without eLoL set on both classes it would become 160k-60k--->100k. The same. Not floating. Predictable and balanced.
Now, assuming we want at least a 50% difference (random number) going from a DPS only primary striker, to a class that brings also CC-utility, to keep the DPS-only class "appealing" for PvE, what is left to do is balance the classes, now without eLoL procs creating confusion.
So you get the DPS output without eLoL, after a rebalance, changed to
CW= 60k
GWF=90k
And with eLoL it's 100k vs 150k. Which is balanced. 120k, instead, is not balanced and nobody would call a GWF for a puny 20% more damage, when another class can also bring 100% more utility, CC or buffs/debuffs compared to the destroyer.
With the elol set as it is:
1) GWF: 100
2) SW: 94
3) HR: 71
4) TR/DC/GF/CW: 66
5) OP: 33
Without the elol set:
1) SW: 86.48
2) HR: 68.16
3) GWF: 66
4) DC/GF: 61.38
5) TR: 52.8
6) CW: 39.6
7) OP: 32.01
Thats an approximation and for GF, DC and OP I am going off of DPS GF's, DC's and OP's that I know. This is taken at a +/- similar item level. If the elol set did a fixed amount of damage for all classes, how the classes compare would still follow the same metric as if the set didn't exist, to maintain the same degree of balance, either the set needs to give more to some classes then others, or TR and CW need to be buffed with the nerfing/adjusting of the set. Here is a question for you, does the CW provide enough utility for it to do similar damage to an oathbound paladin, or would you rather just take that dps specced OP?
I can show you data from a edemo run where a 3.2k GWF dealt 4x more damage than anyone else in the group, explantions?
Do this in a T2 dungeon or a raid, where the mobs do not fall in one second running with a maxed group of player and every class can do long term damage on targets
otherwise run that setup in elol with 1,8k green chars for example
every singel palyer in this game who did some pug runs knows exactly the difference between
GWF 1 with 3.2k GS and
GWF 2 with 3.2k GS
GWF 2 is a skilled player and runs a critbuild he outdamages GWF 1 three times, since GWF 1 is a non skilled player with wrong enchants and wrong build and wrong setup
since all know lazalias solo missions it is not needed to demonstrate that GWF is overbuffed, even without lolset
I run no lolset with my 2,4k GWF and i run a IV-PVP setup, I have the worng enchants, low crit, low gear, miss some boons and so on...but most other classes on same IL can´t compete
compare the classes doing solo content....noone really wants me to go further into detail, GWF runs though level zones with ease, oter classes die 100 death
In case you want to compare those classes you first have to run dungeons with the current meta build in PVE, btw. there do exist also good GF in PVE dealing tons of damage, but these guys are rare.
since i do pug all day, I met so manny classes and player , I do not need any datas to be shown, I see them every day and that "statistic" is ten times better than yours
Your data in my opinion support even more my idea that GWFs need more like a rework than a plain nerf. It's 66 vs 39, primary striker DPS only vs secondary striker CCer. HR in second place.
I ask: then why is everybody jumping on GWFs if they, without eLoL set, are 3rd and out-DPS CWs by roughly 60-70%, with HRs and SWs ahead?
Answer: because eLoL is what makes them jump ahead. If you nerf GWFs, how would a non-eLoL GWF perform? Same DPS as a non-eLoL CW?
Also: i'm sorry if CWs CC is not needed, but it's insane to ruin another class just because the devs couldn't design dungeons and classes to make CC needed.
GWFs can't be the scapegoat for all of you guys everytime.
eLoL is floating/bad design--->nerf GWFs
My CC is not used in current dungeon design--->nerf GWFs
My class lacks survivability tools--->nerf GWFs
OPs make groups immortal and only DPS matters--->nerf GWFs.
Your data show this. You guys want GWFs to be the scapegoat for a broken artifact set. You spent money or time or both on your eLoL set. I spent time and effort on my eLoL set too, and on my 2yrs old GWF toon. Which you want to nerf again randomly, just to do your interests.
Guys.
Get a clue about how to balance this game cause the devs are reading. And what comes out from your data is that the problems are elsewhere, but you all want to make GWFs pay for them. I see GWFs in-line/ a bit behind HRs who are always crying for a buff and claim they are "the weakest class".
I see GFs and DCs (defenders, non-DPS classes) awfully close to GWFs (primary, DPS-only).
I see TR not in line, being a primary striker should be up there with HRs/GWFs.
I see CWs in need for a dungeon design that actually makes their CC valuable.
I see eLoL set acting weird and in need for a "normalization".
What i don't see is the need for the massive GWFs nerf everyone is crying for.
What i wrote is exactly on spot, seeing your data. That kind of change would bring GWF down. Even too much considering SWs would deal way more damage than GWFs, that way.
I'm sorry if your CC is not useful, but why should my GWF pay for it? Why exactly? Why my GWF should get nerfed in place of a broken set? Because the spoiled brats want something else to pay, and not their expensive and broken toy?
What are the datas then? The kid that jumps on forums and says "a GWF scored 3 times more than me in last eLoL run, neerfffff pleaseeeee"? Commanderdata saying that he wants GWFs "nerfed to the ground"?
Don't make me laugh.
This community should seriously get a clue and start giving real feedback, instead of selfish, superficial nerf requests.
This would just make the classes that are stacking crit now worse than they appear on that chart. If that CW is doing that much less damage with 70-100% crit how do you think it will turn out with 50% crit? But that's not really all that relevant to the effect of the elol set because the only way it's actually good is if you're stacking a lot of crit and stacking crit is still going to be the best way to boost your damage.
I see GFs and DCs (defenders, non-DPS classes) awfully close to GWFs (primary, DPS-only).
I see TR not in line, being a primary striker should be up there with HRs/GWFs.
I see CWs in need for a dungeon design that actually makes their CC valuable.
I see eLoL set acting weird and in need for a "normalization".
What i don't see is the need for the massive GWFs nerf everyone is crying for.
What i wrote is exactly on spot, seeing your data. That kind of change would bring GWF down. Even too much considering SWs would deal way more damage than GWFs, that way.
I'm sorry if your CC is not useful, but why should my GWF pay for it? Why exactly? Why my GWF should get nerfed in place of a broken set? Because the spoiled brats want something else to pay, and not their expensive and broken toy?
Can I also point out that HR's have better CC then us wizard's do, so your argument about our CC is kind of invalid in that case since they got better damage then GWF's and better CC then wizards. DC/GF/HR all provide better utility then CW and with the nerf, they would provide substantially more damage as well.
I see GFs and DCs (defenders, non-DPS classes) awfully close to GWFs (primary, DPS-only).
I see TR not in line, being a primary striker should be up there with HRs/GWFs.
I see CWs in need for a dungeon design that actually makes their CC valuable.
I see eLoL set acting weird and in need for a "normalization".
What i don't see is the need for the massive GWFs nerf everyone is crying for.
What i wrote is exactly on spot, seeing your data. That kind of change would bring GWF down. Even too much considering SWs would deal way more damage than GWFs, that way.
I'm sorry if your CC is not useful, but why should my GWF pay for it? Why exactly? Why my GWF should get nerfed in place of a broken set? Because the spoiled brats want something else to pay, and not their expensive and broken toy?
That's the thing, GWF isn't in line behind HR. It's more like it's behind DC/GF/HR because they provide so much more utility that GWF is just a bad DPS class at that point. So you can cry about the elol set breaking everything but it's the one thing keeping GWFs relevant. And you know that if they actually do nerf the elol set we'd be waiting multiple mods for them to fix classes such that they're relatively balanced without it.
Yes, temptation warlocks will do a lot worse, Oppressor CW's will perform worse, the HR's not playing the 1 build what works will do worse and GWF's not destroyer will do worse. The same is true for all the "non optimised builds".
so the best way to do this might be in same patch FIX elol and bring class balances but that might be too much to ask.
we can do runs for sure, pm me in game, I run a templock PVP setup atm , but do not fear to compete, just do an edemo an elol and some more
Quallo in game handle is the same, show me your skill
the only warlock btw i did a testrun was btfw, in the end I did more than good, but tbh I never run with any other warlocks so far doing testings and normally i pug , so I am curious about the names? who might that be?
so waiting for your invite
PS: the warlocks you probably talk of, who deal these ammounts of damage, rely in most cases on a bug
1. damnationpuppet (i run that build for long) or 2. morderous flame bug (fury tree) that deals up to 11 mio hits on bosses (as shown by fernuu)
2. but in the sum warlocks are definitely in a good spot, not to get me wrong, this calss need no buff by sure , it needs more a rework to have variety and options beside using 4 powers all day and one daily
Diversity is a good thing.
Sadly, I don't see this happening though, hence my vote.
Now... having said that...
1) I have run with @thefabricant a couple of times, and he has ALWAYS out-DPSed my GWF... the last run I was on with him, he nearly doubled my DPS... on a CW. While I'm not one of those "Super GWFs", I'm not exactly a slouch, either. So if Fab says he ran some tests, and came up with such and such for results, I tend to believe him. As should you.
2) Good SWs are hard to find. Great SWs are one in a million. I am constantly being out-DPSed by SWs with comparable gear. I have a SW. She's useless. Because it's a completely different world, playing SW, than it is a GWF, or even other DPS-y spellcasters like CW. My hat is off to anyone who can take a "squishlock" and outperform everyone... that's a major accomplishment and a half in my eyes.
I also stongly believe that @pando83 nailed it right on the head And honestly, that's what I see in these forums. I've seen more hate towards GWF than any other class, with maybe the exception of OP.
It's absolutely no wonder there hasn't been any "class balancing" due to the sheer volume that every single character class has cried out for nerfing every other character class. "I got ROFLstomped by a TR, NERF TRs!", and meanwhile, in the TR forum: "I got ROFLstomped by a DC, NERF DCs!", and in the DC forum: "I got ROFLstomped by a potato, NERF POTATOES!" (ad nauseum).
But, as a primary striker with no crowd control or healing or AoE or the ability to turn completely invisible... yeah.. cut the class a break. GWFs are big and dumb and all they can do is swing a sword. And they do it well.
"...I grab my wiener and charge!" - ironzerg79
1) SW: 86.48
2) HR: 68.16
3) GWF: 66
4) DC/GF: 61.38
5) TR: 52.8
6) CW: 39.6
7) OP: 32.01