eLoL set apart, one big problem of this game is that things are not done by baby steps. They turn things upside down, or do nothing. No middle ways. Another problem is the massive effect that a boon and a piece of gear can have on a player. A fresh 70 with base gear and few boons is several leagues under another lvl 70 with all boons and pieces of gear and power points to 4. Now, while i agree that there must be a difference, i don't think it should be THAT MASSIVE. Plus it's not even being "BiS". A BiS toon with the wrong enchants and items can be weaker than a 2.5k toon. But once it's BiS, with all theFOTModule toys, the toon gets on a completely different level.
I went from being 2.9k with PF/terror and "normal" crit chance, no eLoL set, to the META crit build with T.Vorpal and eLoL set. My DPS increased by, roughly, 250%. May be more.
Does it make sense at all? I can agree on, what, a 50% DPS increase, still very powerful? But all those DPS just by changing enchant, build and a set?
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blazious11Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 331Arc User
Weapon master boosts your crit chance with the artifact ability, and IBS(while yes it is damage) is mostly used to refill our determination for quicker unstoppable.
Totally OFFtopic, but IBS should not be used for determination refill IMO.
My story is truly a grand tale! Of course, any story about me is going to be grand simply by virtue of the main character.
Weapon master boosts your crit chance with the artifact ability, and IBS(while yes it is damage) is mostly used to refill our determination for quicker unstoppable. Our main DPS as GWF comes from at will sure strike. Must have high Crit build for the lost set to even become viable in the first place.
The paladin has been long overdue to be decimated as the game isn't even challenging or fun anymore because of perma bubbles etc. There is so much unbalance in Never winter, and here we are three mods later with everyone crying nerf hammer.
The content just needs to be upscaled to be more challenging like mod 6 was.
It's not entirely true. I switched from SS to wicked strike (i'm IV) and in most dungeons i deal more DPS that way. AoE wicked strike on 5+ mobs beats SS in my experience. Jump on mobs, Daring Shout, double Hidden Daggers and start WS. SS still in 1st at-will slot for mini bosses, bosses and when groups of mobs are scattered.
Also, Wicked Strike allows you to reduce the mobs damage, protecting your group further.
One issue also comes from the fact that they took away diminishing returns, allowing for crazy crit chance %, for example. Take a BiS PvE GWF. Reaches 90-100% crit chance. With a P.Vorpal, that alone means your base DPS are increased by 170% (overall crit severity a BiS PvE GWF can reach with P.Vorpal and feats/ boons), or even more. Now add eLoL set proccing at every hit, boosted by crit severity and damage buffs.
P.Vorpal 50% crit severity was "created" when we got diminishing returns and 50% crit chance at best, or a few points more. Now you reach 100% crit chance.
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blazious11Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 331Arc User
edited January 2016
No
It's lame, that you can't change your vote. Calling it 'adjusted' has a better ringing.
Anyway, I still think, that a nerf/adjustment/patch alone to the lostmauth would not solve the problems. It needs to carefully looked through, bringing some class balance along the way. The two classes, that would be hit the most by a lostmauth nerf should be buffed. (GWF CW) Buff GWF unbuffed damage, rework self-buff sístem, and make the other 2 paths viable. Instigator as a control-buffer/debuffer path, sentinel as a tank-buffer/debuffer path, leaving destroyer as pure dps, so GWF can fill other roles in a party. Buff CW damage, moving damage from passives (storm spell) to encounters, feats. These are the 2 most played classes (or close), nerfing their overall damage (even if it's a long overdue lostmauth balance) would make a lot of players angry and make them leave the game. Also buff HR archery and combat, bring SW and OP rebalance along with lostmauth balance.
Let us que to Tiamat and demogorgon. Make normal demo 3x gold give players 1 twisted ichor. Also, remove the 1 hour limitation from normal demo. So casual players and beginners can farm the weapon in lower levels, and don't have to carried through edemo. Because with lostmauth nerf overall dps will be less by a lot. Just think about how many time it depends on a few sec, that it's gold or silver, even with premade - also, there are many pvp players, who sacrificed dps for survivibility.
These should be done at the same time, a lostmauth nerf alone would do more harm than good. Lostmauth is not responsible for all the problems this game has.
My story is truly a grand tale! Of course, any story about me is going to be grand simply by virtue of the main character.
Stupid...every time when we get a chance to talk about a ajdustement the thread changes to stupid "GWF ar to op mimimimi". This poll is about a adjustment for LM set and not about how "op" a class is. And plzz....i dont need tons of explanations why its necessary to talk about dps from GWF/CW etc. This topic is a poll about LM set. Its simple yes or no...
My main is a CW, i plan to use it for buffing others not to be on the top of the paingiver chart so i don't use it. Yes i see a problem in it when for some classes it is the best choice even though they get nothing out of the Str/Dex but whatever change it may come it will have its downside and people will complain against it. For exemple: Scale the content with the lol set... something like that was already done before and look how that turned out, in less than an hour people will complain that they died cuz something fartedat them. Make more top content as the game gets easy.. while i have nothing against this, some will complain that the devs only care about the top few Lets boost the other sets... to put it simply the chance of this NOT going wrong is about the same as winning the lottery. Nerf GWFs but leave the set as it is... most likely this will make a GWF without it as usefull as the popes ****. Nerf the set... while it works best with a GWF, and it won't hurt them so much it may have a worse effect one other dps classes, and again people will cry after their lost damage and investments, bring out their virtual pitchforks and torches and threaten to uninstall the game. I'm sick of GWF's on the top of the paingiver charts... i know that what im saying here has very, very little to no effect on what will happen with the set but for me at least thats isn't worthy of a nerf. I'm sure that i've seen classes of all types at the top of the chart more than once even classes that shouldn't be dps choices. And correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the GWF a dps/off-tank? And for what i can see it's doing just that. And don't start with "he was 5k ilvl below me" as there are other things to take in account here like boons, companion & the most important, SKILL. Before, if i heard well they where the worst class in game now they are one of the best, let them have their moment. The first char i started is a GWF, i just do the dailys (ToS & underdark skirmishes) with it in best case and i dont think it will ever be my main no matter how good GWFs are doing, i simply found the playstyle to boring for my likeing. I started a CW, looked at a build on the forum that i liked the sound of it and made some changs to suite my style of play. If its more effective or not i couldn't care less as long as i find it fun. With that said peace all, try at least to have fun and sorry for the long post so take a peridot.
Stupid...every time when we get a chance to talk about a ajdustement the thread changes to stupid "GWF ar to op mimimimi". This poll is about a adjustment for LM set and not about how "op" a class is. And plzz....i dont need tons of explanations why its necessary to talk about dps from GWF/CW etc. This topic is a poll about LM set. Its simple yes or no...
You don't get eleven page threads on issues that are solved with a simple yes or no answer.
If you are terrible as a CW, of course a GWF will beat you. You must build specifically for DPS, run ahead and melt the mobs before the GWF gets there. Quit trying to get my class nerfed just because you are built wrong. Do not use the Renegade or MoF builds, those paths are not viable for DPS. DPS CW is not a support toon, it is a ruthless damage hog.
You really think you can beat a dps GWF with a CW? Can you show me a vid where a CW runs in a grp of trash elite mobs in T2 and they are "melting" before a GWF gets to them? I hope you know what melting means (melting = in secounds down). Thx a lot. You can send me a link if you have one. So i guess the best solution would be: Take the CC skills away from CWs and give at least 1 good CC skill to GWFs. For this you can nerf skills like WMS and IBS at GWFs. Am i guessing right?
I haven't played a CW in like ages, didn't they supposedly melt enemy groups in seconds always? I remember people bringing like 3 of them for dungeons before. Has it changed that much now?
Lets wait till defiantone shows us how he is melting the mobs in T2 ( eCC the witches at blackdagger for example). Maybe im totally wrong and CWs only need to blink at them to melt them.
P.S.: OF kicking some "mobs" in spikes doesnt count as melting btw
If you are terrible as a CW, of course a GWF will beat you. You must build specifically for DPS, run ahead and melt the mobs before the GWF gets there. Quit trying to get my class nerfed just because you are built wrong. Do not use the Renegade or MoF builds, those paths are not viable for DPS. DPS CW is not a support toon, it is a ruthless damage hog.
Ok, instead of it being all hot air (as it has been up to this point) why don't we do work this out in game. You bring the highest damage CW you know and I will bring the highest damage GWF I know (snoo snoo). If your CW can touch snoo snoo's damage, then you keep on saying that CW competes with GWF. It does not, in any world though, ill bet my vorpal enchant on it in fact that the best CW you know isn't in the same league as the best GWF I know.
I'm down with "adjusted". Being BIS for all classes, and making up 30% of the damage of some classes, clearly shows "too strong". I have no problem with leaving it very good, even still leaving it BIS - just maybe not quite *as dominant*, yes?
Adjusted yes. "Nerf", no. If all the people who use it now are like "well now it's garbage", that's BAD. I'd just prefer it to no longer be by far the greatest option for all classes.
If you are terrible as a CW, of course a GWF will beat you. You must build specifically for DPS, run ahead and melt the mobs before the GWF gets there. Quit trying to get my class nerfed just because you are built wrong. Do not use the Renegade or MoF builds, those paths are not viable for DPS. DPS CW is not a support toon, it is a ruthless damage hog.
Ok, instead of it being all hot air (as it has been up to this point) why don't we do work this out in game. You bring the highest damage CW you know and I will bring the highest damage GWF I know (snoo snoo). If your CW can touch snoo snoo's damage, then you keep on saying that CW competes with GWF. It does not, in any world though, ill bet my vorpal enchant on it in fact that the best CW you know isn't in the same league as the best GWF I know.
You already have a CW. Do it yourself.
We'd see A LOT more thaum CWs if what you're suggesting was true.
ok let the set be and cap critical chance to 50% power boost 100% armpen 20% add resistance stats and new item sets with special attacks/defenses +add elemental damages.
ok let the set be and cap critical chance to 50% power boost 100% armpen 20% add resistance stats and new item sets with special attacks/defenses +add elemental damages.
lol.
The resistance to a change like this would dwarf the response the elol nerf is getting. Almost every DPS class is pretty heavily invested in crit and the cost to adjust would be enormous.
I haven't played a CW in like ages, didn't they supposedly melt enemy groups in seconds always? I remember people bringing like 3 of them for dungeons before. Has it changed that much now?
No, but CW was king for so long, they hate that GWF is now viable. Until Mod 6, a GWF would lose to Righteous DC. I think the main problem is that there is no crit severity cap. GWF has a crit sev feat and half-orc has 5 percent. There needs to be a hard cap. Repel is only for PVP now, BTW.
Yes, that 5-20 % is the problem, thank you to pointing that out. Most dps classes has crit severity increasing feats and passives Btw, SW, TR, CW, and archer and combat HR has it too. While there is no hard cap, there is still soft cap. Increasing your crit severity from example from 150 to 155% give you less damage increase, than increasing it from 100 to 105%. Crit severity has nothing to do with this issue.
My story is truly a grand tale! Of course, any story about me is going to be grand simply by virtue of the main character.
If you are terrible as a CW, of course a GWF will beat you. You must build specifically for DPS, run ahead and melt the mobs before the GWF gets there. Quit trying to get my class nerfed just because you are built wrong. Do not use the Renegade or MoF builds, those paths are not viable for DPS. DPS CW is not a support toon, it is a ruthless damage hog.
Ok, instead of it being all hot air (as it has been up to this point) why don't we do work this out in game. You bring the highest damage CW you know and I will bring the highest damage GWF I know (snoo snoo). If your CW can touch snoo snoo's damage, then you keep on saying that CW competes with GWF. It does not, in any world though, ill bet my vorpal enchant on it in fact that the best CW you know isn't in the same league as the best GWF I know.
You already have a CW. Do it yourself.
I think @thefabricant wouldn't say something like that if he wasn't convinced of it being true based on testing and experience, which is what he is known for. He has a CW and he's doing crazy damage, still he is out of GWFs (esp. snoo snoo's) league damage wise. But if Sharp is the highest dmg CW you know I can assure you that snoo is easily topping him in DPS as I know both of them and had a few runs with both of them.
He already did...and posted the results a few pages back. Now the point is if other players take it as good data or bad data. He's been challenging the ones who say his results are BS. I'd do the same. If someone says he's a bad CW and therefore his datas are not good, he has the right to say "ok, come prove it in game". I appreciate the fact that he is not the usual forum user that jumps in and says "my experience is X, it means the games works like this, period". He took the time to put together BiS and META toons, and make them run together. I'll say it again: what thefabricant posted is the best feedback about current state of DPS we have.
I also agree with macjae (as usual): it's more reasonable to normalize a set than reworking all the content and nerf an entire class because of that one set.
But what we see in the poll is that, basically, too many users went for the "cool toy" and do not want their precious, overperforming toy, to get fixed/ reworked/ rebalanced. I have the eLoL set too on my GWF, but i know it's overperforming, expecially on my class, and i'd happily give up a huge part of those extra DPS, to see the game more healthy and balanced.
Also, i'll repeat it again: i explained how it could work, it's not necessarily a "nerf". You can keep the same amount of extra DPS on CWs/ whatever class, but change the mechanic so that it works the same across all classes.
Other than that, i'd also point out that Paingiver scores are not a sign of DPS alone, but a lot comes from playstyle too. For example, on my GWF i run with group, i only jump ahead if i have to off-tank (I.E: group with 1 DC and all DPS, no OP or real tank), because i use wicked strike to debuff mobs damage before my team arrives, helping them to survive. Or, if there's a good CW in group, i let him freeze the mobs first, then i jump in and WS them to protect my team. A full DPS swordmaster with WMS, who runs miles ahead of the group and kills most of the mobs before the team gets there, will obviously score way more than someone who plays like me. But we are both GWFs.
Comments
eLoL set apart, one big problem of this game is that things are not done by baby steps. They turn things upside down, or do nothing. No middle ways.
Another problem is the massive effect that a boon and a piece of gear can have on a player.
A fresh 70 with base gear and few boons is several leagues under another lvl 70 with all boons and pieces of gear and power points to 4.
Now, while i agree that there must be a difference, i don't think it should be THAT MASSIVE.
Plus it's not even being "BiS". A BiS toon with the wrong enchants and items can be weaker than a 2.5k toon.
But once it's BiS, with all theFOTModule toys, the toon gets on a completely different level.
I went from being 2.9k with PF/terror and "normal" crit chance, no eLoL set, to the META crit build with T.Vorpal and eLoL set.
My DPS increased by, roughly, 250%. May be more.
Does it make sense at all? I can agree on, what, a 50% DPS increase, still very powerful? But all those DPS just by changing enchant, build and a set?
Also, Wicked Strike allows you to reduce the mobs damage, protecting your group further.
One issue also comes from the fact that they took away diminishing returns, allowing for crazy crit chance %, for example. Take a BiS PvE GWF. Reaches 90-100% crit chance. With a P.Vorpal, that alone means your base DPS are increased by 170% (overall crit severity a BiS PvE GWF can reach with P.Vorpal and feats/ boons), or even more.
Now add eLoL set proccing at every hit, boosted by crit severity and damage buffs.
P.Vorpal 50% crit severity was "created" when we got diminishing returns and 50% crit chance at best, or a few points more. Now you reach 100% crit chance.
Calling it 'adjusted' has a better ringing.
Anyway, I still think, that a nerf/adjustment/patch alone to the lostmauth would not solve the problems. It needs to carefully looked through, bringing some class balance along the way. The two classes, that would be hit the most by a lostmauth nerf should be buffed. (GWF CW)
Buff GWF unbuffed damage, rework self-buff sístem, and make the other 2 paths viable. Instigator as a control-buffer/debuffer path, sentinel as a tank-buffer/debuffer path, leaving destroyer as pure dps, so GWF can fill other roles in a party.
Buff CW damage, moving damage from passives (storm spell) to encounters, feats.
These are the 2 most played classes (or close), nerfing their overall damage (even if it's a long overdue lostmauth balance) would make a lot of players angry and make them leave the game.
Also buff HR archery and combat, bring SW and OP rebalance along with lostmauth balance.
Let us que to Tiamat and demogorgon.
Make normal demo 3x gold give players 1 twisted ichor. Also, remove the 1 hour limitation from normal demo. So casual players and beginners can farm the weapon in lower levels, and don't have to carried through edemo. Because with lostmauth nerf overall dps will be less by a lot. Just think about how many time it depends on a few sec, that it's gold or silver, even with premade - also, there are many pvp players, who sacrificed dps for survivibility.
These should be done at the same time, a lostmauth nerf alone would do more harm than good. Lostmauth is not responsible for all the problems this game has.
Yes i see a problem in it when for some classes it is the best choice even though they get nothing out of the Str/Dex but whatever change it may come it will have its downside and people will complain against it.
For exemple:
Scale the content with the lol set... something like that was already done before and look how that turned out, in less than an hour people will complain that they died cuz something fartedat them.
Make more top content as the game gets easy.. while i have nothing against this, some will complain that the devs only care about the top few
Lets boost the other sets... to put it simply the chance of this NOT going wrong is about the same as winning the lottery.
Nerf GWFs but leave the set as it is... most likely this will make a GWF without it as usefull as the popes ****.
Nerf the set... while it works best with a GWF, and it won't hurt them so much it may have a worse effect one other dps classes, and again people will cry after their lost damage and investments, bring out their virtual pitchforks and torches and threaten to uninstall the game.
I'm sick of GWF's on the top of the paingiver charts... i know that what im saying here has very, very little to no effect on what will happen with the set but for me at least thats isn't worthy of a nerf. I'm sure that i've seen classes of all types at the top of the chart more than once even classes that shouldn't be dps choices. And correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the GWF a dps/off-tank? And for what i can see it's doing just that.
And don't start with "he was 5k ilvl below me" as there are other things to take in account here like boons, companion & the most important, SKILL. Before, if i heard well they where the worst class in game now they are one of the best, let them have their moment.
The first char i started is a GWF, i just do the dailys (ToS & underdark skirmishes) with it in best case and i dont think it will ever be my main no matter how good GWFs are doing, i simply found the playstyle to boring for my likeing. I started a CW, looked at a build on the forum that i liked the sound of it and made some changs to suite my style of play. If its more effective or not i couldn't care less as long as i find it fun.
With that said peace all, try at least to have fun and sorry for the long post so take a peridot.
So i guess the best solution would be:
Take the CC skills away from CWs and give at least 1 good CC skill to GWFs. For this you can nerf skills like WMS and IBS at GWFs.
Am i guessing right?
^^....youre really a paingiver fan ^^
P.S.: OF kicking some "mobs" in spikes doesnt count as melting btw
Adjusted yes. "Nerf", no. If all the people who use it now are like "well now it's garbage", that's BAD. I'd just prefer it to no longer be by far the greatest option for all classes.
The resistance to a change like this would dwarf the response the elol nerf is getting. Almost every DPS class is pretty heavily invested in crit and the cost to adjust would be enormous.
While there is no hard cap, there is still soft cap. Increasing your crit severity from example from 150 to 155% give you less damage increase, than increasing it from 100 to 105%.
Crit severity has nothing to do with this issue.
Now the point is if other players take it as good data or bad data. He's been challenging the ones who say his results are BS. I'd do the same. If someone says he's a bad CW and therefore his datas are not good, he has the right to say "ok, come prove it in game".
I appreciate the fact that he is not the usual forum user that jumps in and says "my experience is X, it means the games works like this, period". He took the time to put together BiS and META toons, and make them run together.
I'll say it again: what thefabricant posted is the best feedback about current state of DPS we have.
I also agree with macjae (as usual): it's more reasonable to normalize a set than reworking all the content and nerf an entire class because of that one set.
But what we see in the poll is that, basically, too many users went for the "cool toy" and do not want their precious, overperforming toy, to get fixed/ reworked/ rebalanced.
I have the eLoL set too on my GWF, but i know it's overperforming, expecially on my class, and i'd happily give up a huge part of those extra DPS, to see the game more healthy and balanced.
Also, i'll repeat it again: i explained how it could work, it's not necessarily a "nerf". You can keep the same amount of extra DPS on CWs/ whatever class, but change the mechanic so that it works the same across all classes.
Other than that, i'd also point out that Paingiver scores are not a sign of DPS alone, but a lot comes from playstyle too. For example, on my GWF i run with group, i only jump ahead if i have to off-tank (I.E: group with 1 DC and all DPS, no OP or real tank), because i use wicked strike to debuff mobs damage before my team arrives, helping them to survive. Or, if there's a good CW in group, i let him freeze the mobs first, then i jump in and WS them to protect my team.
A full DPS swordmaster with WMS, who runs miles ahead of the group and kills most of the mobs before the team gets there, will obviously score way more than someone who plays like me. But we are both GWFs.
Crit chance should have a hard cap. Such as 40% at best. Not even 1% more than that. 100% crit chance, or 70-80-90%, is insane.