You people realize, this could just be coughed up to the normal gear gap/gear grind in any F2P MMO. When Mod9 rolls around, or latest Mod10, there will be a replacement for this. That's how the power creep works in these MMOs. It's how these devs/publishers make money.
Ive argued too many times to recount by now against this. IDK why anyone thinks it will change, especially when people just keep throwing money at their screen.
It's why I say it's too late, MoD9 is just around the corner. Something will replace it on the gear grind wheel.
Seriously guys do you really think this set are the only one that, we will ever see? Nope! M9/M10/M-what ever etc. There's new Stuff, better gears or Sets always coming which we will definitely use instead of them and Maybe with an level increase to lvl80, so who cares about 70 stuff.. so enjoy your stuff as long as you can before it's obsolete.
<::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ●
It's why I say it's too late, MoD9 is just around the corner. Something will replace it on the gear grind wheel.
Not unless they make another item that's even more overpowered. For example, people are still using some of the level 60 sets in PvE because their set bonuses still outweigh all the additional stats given by the higher-level sets we got since.
This argument also contains the same flaw as the "boost everything else" line of reasoning, namely that new sets that are even more potent than Lostmauth would necessarily destroy any semblance of game balance even farther.
They just messed that up when going from those 60 sets to their refining model. Poor planning.
The gear grind model in f2p MMOS almost dictate it has to happen. The carrot has to be there for the player to chase, or the player will get bored and move to something else.
The same old vertical scaling gear grind.
EDIT: What I do find interesting though, really interesting. Is the new pet equip in the lockboxes. That does give hope maybe they are gonna try some horizontal scaling a bit more. Or maybe it just was a random thing they thoughtlessly threw in the box (more junk to "win", so maybe not thoughtless, just calculated).
Not unless they make another item that's even more overpowered. For example, people are still using some of the level 60 sets in PvE because their set bonuses still outweigh all the additional stats given by the higher-level sets we got since.
It is the same problem with those old sets as it is with Lostmauth set currently: To make any meaningful new sets they need to be at least as good as the Lostmauth set.
Since the Lostmauth set accounts for some 25-30% dps boost currently, they have permanently changed their equipment model so the neck-belt-artifact set is to do at least 25-30% of the total damage from here to games end.
That was clearly not intended - looking at the other sets the intended power boost from the set effect is at most 5% or so.
So to get back the developers freedom to make new sets, the Lostmauth set needs to be brought back in line.
Since mod 6 he devs have been VERY careful with how much power creep they have allowed into the game so they will not have to do another mod 6-style power adjustment. The Lostmauth set is breaking that ambition solidly, and probably is one of the reasons game currently is somewhat easier than the devs intends.
The 'boost all the others' argument obviously is flawed.. if they keep bosting other sets/other gear to compensate for their tuning mistakes we'll need another mod 6 power rework very shortly to keep game even remotely challenging.
And yes, the Lostmauth set obviously was a mistake by the devs, as was the power scaling of the GWF and the defensive abilities of he OPs. Mistakes do happen, a game like this is a VERY complicated beast so it is understandable. The big error they did with Lostmauth and GWF really was letting it stay in game so long. Such mistakes should be fixed as soon as they are discovered and not left to fester.
"To make any meaningful new sets they need to be at least as good as the Lostmauth set."
This reminds me of something somebody posted after leadership rework hahaha... Player: "leadership is the only viable profession to do, please make the other professions as good as leadership". cryptic: "okay let's nerf it so they are all on the same viability"
The big error they did with Lostmauth and GWF really was letting it stay in game so long. Such mistakes should be fixed as soon as they are discovered and not left to fester.
Still only GWFs are to op with this set discussion? Boring...
a change to the set bonus in "you can now slot a third class feature" is less overpowered , how people can deny how broken this item is is beyond me
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
No
I can agree with an adjustment to the set, but not a nerf. However, the poll was originally stated as a nerf request, so I voted on it being a nerf request.
Actually the term exploit, exploitation, exploiter have multiple meanings, you actually took the one you wanted to and posted it.
verb (used with object) 1. to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account: to exploit a business opportunity. 2. to use selfishly for one's own ends: employers who exploit their workers. 3. to advance or further through exploitation; promote: He exploited his new movie through a series of guest appearances.
However, to claim someone is exploiting the game for a dev created item, that they have so far chosen not to adjust, is a pretty far stretch.
Exploiters in this game were the ones using powers that could glitch in totality bosses, skip large chunks of maps (not just small mob packs.. I mean 50% of maps) and/or using items that generated tons of ill gotten AD (probably the VERY worst of the exploiters)
This reference you are making doesn't match true exploitation of a game. This is like claiming that those using roar in the old days for pvp, or deep gash .. or HR roots or blah blah blah power was a exploiter.. it simply wasnt the case.
Your vastly overstating the term.
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
No
My only issue with Lostmauth is that it's the only set of any worth. Now levelling up a CW after running 1.5 yrs with a GF and a GWF. And the advice I get is that I need to level up a third Lostmauth set! I understand why, but jeesh.
The set needs to be adjusted. It can't be that one set gives the biggest boost over everything else. However you need to make sure other sets are more attractive and existing classes remain viable.
This and bonding stones are hurting there bottom line:
Someone with 2k and Bonding Rank 12s can out dps someone with 3k and a stone, eventhough both cost about the same to get. This makes a very cheap and easy way for someone to get a huge boost. There whole free to play system is based on grinding to get more power/dps slowly. So this is counterproductive to there bottom line. Why should I grind and stay in the game when after I get Bonding 3 x12 I can pretty much solo most of the content.
The lost set is better then every other set for dps, so once you get one your set and there is no reason to ever change. Every bit of gear you get from them on does not really increase your damage nearly as much as the LOL set. So basically from that point on, its all just little disappointments. Not a great way to keep people, you are basically devaluing every other set/items (except maybe bonding stones).
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zekethesinnerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 805Arc User
Yes
Its more about balance than nerf itself. What i would like to see elol set dealing only weap dmg, not scaling with buffs. Would make sense at least. Also would stop power creep we have right now, at least to an extend.
Another thing i would like to see is Val set getting +15% dmg on CC immune targets (poor pvp gwfs, poor bosses) Imperial set getting boost (something like wheel, but less effective, for every hit here should be one additional hit for 4% of that hit, so bascily 4% boost to overall dmg) Lathander set working more like old sf, so upon dying we get auto ress with 60% hp, and 3s immune or so, also after every ress we get boost to hp like it works now) and so go on.
(Sin)cerely Kain
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited January 2016
One of the issues I have.. if they do IN FACT balance this out. is lost RP (again ARRRCGH) impacting having to switch toons around for maximum benefit.
Im so sick and tired of this loss of RP.. when its not warranted, just give us 100% back on these items already.
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
No
No, because it's about the way you build and play your class. Crit builds with Vorpal it benefits the most. For cookie-cutter, "follow this guide or else players", it's definitely going to be BiS. But if you are not worried about paingiver all the toher sets are viable for twhat they do.
I run every class... and the sets I run are:
TR (Imperial, because I had the full set before Lostmauth came out, and I don't play it much anymore, but it works well in PVP, not that good in PVE) DC (Lathandar with Soulforge, Eye to res people if far way, tanky, and if I do go down massive group heal onres) GF (Seldarine and Loatmauth - use the Seldarine for the Heals... PVP, use the eLoL almost never as I'm not high crit) CW (Lostmauth and BlackIce - eLoL IS BiS for CW, but Arp Builds I play with seem to do more damage with BI... still in testing, I want the owlbear companion to really test) GWF (Lostmauth, no real other option) Paladin (Lathandar = super tanky.. I just out last) SW (Seldarine, life steal and deflect is really nice, using the Fabled set.. *grin*) HR (Valindra's and Lostmauth - although Lostmauth should be the best set for my HR, as trapper it is not... extra DPS is minimal)
So there is no doubt that Lostmauth does give people more DPS... but depending on Game play.. .the other sets without buffs are still more than viable, and in my case preferred.. PVP and PVE.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I hope I'm not exploiting the dictionary. Fact is if people want to glitch a boss I don't lose anything. If people use glitches for articiallly boosting their toons and the moan like babies inside the forums because the game 'it's too easy' than it directly affect me that I don't use glitches nor spend tons of money to boost the toon beyond rationality. That's what I call exploiting, make you artificially better while I pay the consequences for not following your bad behavior. And we know what has it delivered, a mass escape and the game almost dead (Mod 6). Since I like this game and I want it alive for the time being I hope everything gets a fix so people will actually be able to properly play and spend their money with confidence. If they win a bos through glitch why should I care?
x Zeke: If it's all that simple I really don't understand why they haven't done it before. It's just easier to balance DPS by buffing a Capstone instead of lose every control with 'this or that' set, with some GWFs performing and some others underperforming. Some (many?) maybe don't even know the existence of a particular set or how much it can affect their DPS.
Imperial need a 400% DPS boost, I concur about the Valindra set but 15% is too much if we consider the LM nerf. No set should buff more than 10% damage (best case) in my opinion, LM included.
The usage of "facts" really ticks me off, so I think I'll give the dictionary a try:
Fact (noun) - "a thing that is indisputably the case." o·pin·ion (noun) - "a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge."
Fact is if people want to glitch a boss I don't lose anything.
Lets assume some base figures for elol (they for example), lets assume horn drop rate of 0.1% and success rate for parties to complete it at 50%. And lets assume 4k runs total per day (server wide)
Lets assume 2 scenarios, the first no exploitable bugs in elol:
With 4k runs at 50% success and 0.1% drop rate we will get 2 drops per day, lets assume half goes to sale, so we get one listed per day, and it's a wanted artifact so it costs 1mil AD.
The second scenario is that there is a bug that allows a player to see what loot I will get and to instantly kill the bosses and finish the dungeon:
Lets assume 75% exploiters, in this case:
1k runs at 50% success rate and 0.1% drop rate: 0.5 horns per day. 3k runs at 100% sucess rate and 100% drop rate (I know before hand if it drops or not): 3k horns per day.
Ohhh I have a feeling that the AH will be overflowed with something, 3k horns per day = 100 AD per horn (in a good case, look briar books for reference)
So, now as a non exploiter and a heavy farmer I run 20 elols per day, I'll get 1 drop per 100 days (on avarage) Lets assume I'm a good player with a good premade so the success rate for me personally (without effect on global success rate) is 100% I'll get one on average pr 50 days. In the first example I get 1mil AD after heavy grinding per 50 days. In the second I get 100AD.
I would say this affected me ' a bit' Hypothetical me just lost 999900AD, lets not call it "I don't loose anything"
Completing a dungeon should merit a reward relative to it's difficulty, and not spoiled by "ahh no problem I got 100 of those by jumping here and there and pulling a door"
In any case, this set should go away, and not all the rest buffed, reworking class balance around specific item is just wrong ( and I hope it's understood why) it's silly that some AoE encounters do the same or higher damage for single target than encounters that meant for it (for example smoke bomb over lashing blade) only due to elol set ticks. And yet, classes should be balanced at the same time and with some thought about how they scale with the gear now and future gear, and not nerf elol set now, work on the classes in 2 years, and power creep meanwhile.
Also lets not pretend the classes are balanced, and in the same breath rate them by damage and utility. Classes are not balanced, when one dps class can decisively outdps properly specced another dps class with at least 10 mil more AD investment in gear (+- 3k to 4k), something is not balanced.
Comments
Ive argued too many times to recount by now against this. IDK why anyone thinks it will change, especially when people just keep throwing money at their screen.
It's why I say it's too late, MoD9 is just around the corner. Something will replace it on the gear grind wheel.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
M9/M10/M-what ever etc. There's new Stuff, better gears or Sets always coming which we will definitely use instead of them and Maybe with an level increase to lvl80, so who cares about 70 stuff..
so enjoy your stuff as long as you can before it's obsolete.
The gear grind model in f2p MMOS almost dictate it has to happen. The carrot has to be there for the player to chase, or the player will get bored and move to something else.
The same old vertical scaling gear grind.
EDIT: What I do find interesting though, really interesting. Is the new pet equip in the lockboxes. That does give hope maybe they are gonna try some horizontal scaling a bit more. Or maybe it just was a random thing they thoughtlessly threw in the box (more junk to "win", so maybe not thoughtless, just calculated).
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
To make any meaningful new sets they need to be at least as good as the Lostmauth set.
Since the Lostmauth set accounts for some 25-30% dps boost currently, they have permanently changed their equipment model so the neck-belt-artifact set is to do at least 25-30% of the total damage from here to games end.
That was clearly not intended - looking at the other sets the intended power boost from the set effect is at most 5% or so.
So to get back the developers freedom to make new sets, the Lostmauth set needs to be brought back in line.
Since mod 6 he devs have been VERY careful with how much power creep they have allowed into the game so they will not have to do another mod 6-style power adjustment. The Lostmauth set is breaking that ambition solidly, and probably is one of the reasons game currently is somewhat easier than the devs intends.
The 'boost all the others' argument obviously is flawed.. if they keep bosting other sets/other gear to compensate for their tuning mistakes we'll need another mod 6 power rework very shortly to keep game even remotely challenging.
And yes, the Lostmauth set obviously was a mistake by the devs, as was the power scaling of the GWF and the defensive abilities of he OPs. Mistakes do happen, a game like this is a VERY complicated beast so it is understandable. The big error they did with Lostmauth and GWF really was letting it stay in game so long. Such mistakes should be fixed as soon as they are discovered and not left to fester.
This reminds me of something somebody posted after leadership rework hahaha... Player: "leadership is the only viable profession to do, please make the other professions as good as leadership". cryptic: "okay let's nerf it so they are all on the same viability"
(Sin)cerely
Kain
verb (used with object)
1.
to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account:
to exploit a business opportunity.
2.
to use selfishly for one's own ends:
employers who exploit their workers.
3.
to advance or further through exploitation; promote:
He exploited his new movie through a series of guest appearances.
However, to claim someone is exploiting the game for a dev created item, that they have so far chosen not to adjust, is a pretty far stretch.
Exploiters in this game were the ones using powers that could glitch in totality bosses, skip large chunks of maps (not just small mob packs.. I mean 50% of maps) and/or using items that generated tons of ill gotten AD (probably the VERY worst of the exploiters)
This reference you are making doesn't match true exploitation of a game. This is like claiming that those using roar in the old days for pvp, or deep gash .. or HR roots or blah blah blah power was a exploiter.. it simply wasnt the case.
Your vastly overstating the term.
Another thing i would like to see is Val set getting +15% dmg on CC immune targets (poor pvp gwfs, poor bosses) Imperial set getting boost (something like wheel, but less effective, for every hit here should be one additional hit for 4% of that hit, so bascily 4% boost to overall dmg) Lathander set working more like old sf, so upon dying we get auto ress with 60% hp, and 3s immune or so, also after every ress we get boost to hp like it works now) and so go on.
(Sin)cerely
Kain
Im so sick and tired of this loss of RP.. when its not warranted, just give us 100% back on these items already.
I run every class... and the sets I run are:
TR (Imperial, because I had the full set before Lostmauth came out, and I don't play it much anymore, but it works well in PVP, not that good in PVE)
DC (Lathandar with Soulforge, Eye to res people if far way, tanky, and if I do go down massive group heal onres)
GF (Seldarine and Loatmauth - use the Seldarine for the Heals... PVP, use the eLoL almost never as I'm not high crit)
CW (Lostmauth and BlackIce - eLoL IS BiS for CW, but Arp Builds I play with seem to do more damage with BI... still in testing, I want the owlbear companion to really test)
GWF (Lostmauth, no real other option)
Paladin (Lathandar = super tanky.. I just out last)
SW (Seldarine, life steal and deflect is really nice, using the Fabled set.. *grin*)
HR (Valindra's and Lostmauth - although Lostmauth should be the best set for my HR, as trapper it is not... extra DPS is minimal)
So there is no doubt that Lostmauth does give people more DPS... but depending on Game play.. .the other sets without buffs are still more than viable, and in my case preferred.. PVP and PVE.
Fact (noun) - "a thing that is indisputably the case."
o·pin·ion (noun) - "a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge." Lets assume some base figures for elol (they for example), lets assume horn drop rate of 0.1% and success rate for parties to complete it at 50%. And lets assume 4k runs total per day (server wide)
Lets assume 2 scenarios, the first no exploitable bugs in elol:
With 4k runs at 50% success and 0.1% drop rate we will get 2 drops per day, lets assume half goes to sale, so we get one listed per day, and it's a wanted artifact so it costs 1mil AD.
The second scenario is that there is a bug that allows a player to see what loot I will get and to instantly kill the bosses and finish the dungeon:
Lets assume 75% exploiters, in this case:
1k runs at 50% success rate and 0.1% drop rate: 0.5 horns per day.
3k runs at 100% sucess rate and 100% drop rate (I know before hand if it drops or not): 3k horns per day.
Ohhh I have a feeling that the AH will be overflowed with something, 3k horns per day = 100 AD per horn (in a good case, look briar books for reference)
So, now as a non exploiter and a heavy farmer I run 20 elols per day, I'll get 1 drop per 100 days (on avarage)
Lets assume I'm a good player with a good premade so the success rate for me personally (without effect on global success rate) is 100%
I'll get one on average pr 50 days. In the first example I get 1mil AD after heavy grinding per 50 days.
In the second I get 100AD.
I would say this affected me ' a bit'
Hypothetical me just lost 999900AD, lets not call it "I don't loose anything"
Completing a dungeon should merit a reward relative to it's difficulty, and not spoiled by "ahh no problem I got 100 of those by jumping here and there and pulling a door"
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In any case, this set should go away, and not all the rest buffed, reworking class balance around specific item is just wrong ( and I hope it's understood why)
it's silly that some AoE encounters do the same or higher damage for single target than encounters that meant for it (for example smoke bomb over lashing blade) only due to elol set ticks.
And yet, classes should be balanced at the same time and with some thought about how they scale with the gear now and future gear, and not nerf elol set now, work on the classes in 2 years, and power creep meanwhile.
Also lets not pretend the classes are balanced, and in the same breath rate them by damage and utility. Classes are not balanced, when one dps class can decisively outdps properly specced another dps class with at least 10 mil more AD investment in gear (+- 3k to 4k), something is not balanced.