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50% more HP on enemies is the equivalent of an all classes, all builds 33% damage nerf

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  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    gigarayzor wrote: »
    OK - this change effectively means that for each mob in an encounter you will take 12.5% more damage than before over the duration of the encounter (on average). Unless you are BiS and doing huge overkill damage at the moment of course. For those saying it gives more chance for LS to proc, more Encounter rotations, more potion use, etc - negligible impact.

    This is another nerf to solo play and survivability of non-tank classes in general. GG Cryptic. GG indeed...

    It's not just lifesteal and potions, your math completely ignores healing from paladin or cleric party members, a healer companion, temporary HP or shield effects, and temporary damage mitigation/avoidance abilities, including your simple pressing Shift. It adds up to be significantly more than negligible. I'm not defending or condemning these changes, but this is much more complex than simply 150% x 75%.
    It really isn't.

    All the things you mention were in play before this nerf. They are still in play after the nerf. They cancel out. Your DPS has not increased. Your HPS has not increased. Your TTK has increased. Sure, there may be edge cases where the opportunity to chug one more 10k HP potion might make an appreciable difference but they will be rare.

    Some classes/builds rely on bursting down enemies as they can't stack significant DR/Deflect/Healing. This is going to hit them hard.
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  • maegmaagmaegmaag Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    @OP The title and the statement is plain wrong. Whilst general mob HP boost changes nothing but the duration of a fight, general dmg nerf would hugely impact striker classes/specces (the lower DpS the PC has, the lower impact it would have).

    Dont know what mobs are affected (the patchnote is again vague) and am about to c it in game yet, but its theoretically in general good move, for u can fight "DoT" (lesser dmg over longer time) but u cant fight "one-shotting". Now i want to c the differentiation between critters, normal and elite mobs (not saying there is zero now, but its a minuscule).
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  • norsemanxnorsemanx Member Posts: 124 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    aquarius79 wrote: »
    I can confirm, all mobs from 70-73lev have 50% more hp and do really very little less damage, so now fights takes a lot more time and are harder than before for my 2.3k til tr, I cant imagine how looks fights now for support classes like dc or other less dps. Craptic really know how mess up game more every time.

    Pretty much. I really struggled on my HR with about the same gear level as you doing some solo dailies today. I logged off after a bit in frustration so I don't know if there is some way to learn to adapt or not. I tend to think with the Zen bonus, x2 RP and all that, along with the increase in difficulty encouraging folks to throw money at the problem impulsively during this discount period, that this is a cash grab on their part of sorts.
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    jimmyhar wrote: »
    The point is it reduces that initial damage spike you get from first contact with a mob.
    Those spikes are a real problem for me in level 73 areas but it's not very clear whether this change will affect those.
    A typical encounter would be "wham" 90% of HP gone, chug potion to get back to about 25% of HP then dead on next attack. I'm lucky if I can get a second encounter away before dying. So it would be nice if those L73 mobs were nerfed a bit but I suspect they are not. <shrug>
    So now that initial hit would 'only' take you to 68% of HP gone. So you have 22% more HP left to last you 50% more time.

    Not seeing how that helps TBH. If shot 2 doesn't kill you outright the extra shots from the HP buff surely will.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
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  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,464 Arc User
    Oh - and how annoying is this going to make Powries, where you have to kill them before they use their attack that does damage AND drains all your AP? There is literally no other way to avoid this attack unless you have plenty of CC.

    Now, an HR meeting 4 powries = total AP loss.

    Every single time--for every single build.
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  • instynctiveinstynctive Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,885 Arc User
    I've run through DR with both my GWF and DC... and honestly, haven't noticed any difference.
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  • daggon87daggon87 Member Posts: 288 Arc User
    With my main characters, I feel a slight increase in HP pool of mobs in DR and Sharandar areas (Powries need a bit more attention). But nothing like +50%. I can't really say I feel a difference in the damage they inflict either, it wasn't much before anyway. I haven't been elsewhere yet.
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  • mjonismjonis Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 146 Arc User
    Definitely takes longer on DR for my OP due to the more hit points on the enemies and now they have time to drink those lovely 30-40k healing potions. Used to finish a DR run in about 15-20 minutes. Last night took about 30 minutes. Even more impossible to do anything in IWD without grouping.
  • darwinsradiodarwinsradio Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    I actually do find the survivability to be improved. My GWF doesn't have to resort to heal potions or stones of health in the Dread ring now.
  • sangrinesangrine Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    A character built for soloing should not be only offensive.
    Kill them before they kill you is an unreliable strategy when soloing.
    No pity from me for players who think this is a good strategy.

    Icewind Dale has become easier for me to solo and Heroic encounters are easier too, although the fight does last longer. After yesterday's update, fighting mobs feels a little more like module 5, but with longer duration.

    Tanks and healers should work on increasing dps.
    dps should work on becoming more tanky/healy.
  • mahgnilligmahgnillig Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    Has anyone actually parsed this out to see which mobs now have boosted HPs and reduced damage? I did a few Sharandar quests and a couple of Kessell's runs last night but didn't notice much difference, to be honest. I'm curious as to whether anyone has hard numbers for before/after HPs/DPS on mobs pre-70, 70-73, and trash mobs in epic dungeons.
  • silverkeltsilverkelt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,235 Arc User
    I actually do find the survivability to be improved. My GWF doesn't have to resort to heal potions or stones of health in the Dread ring now.

    meh..

    GWF didnt require anything, its the easiest class to play through atm for landscape. I just use the alchemist to restore HP.

    Now.. its just stone 100% of the time.

    The change wasnt needed..
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    sangrine wrote: »
    A character built for soloing should not be only offensive.
    Kill them before they kill you is an unreliable strategy when soloing.
    No pity from me for players who think this is a good strategy.
    It's not a matter of being a good strategy. It's a matter of being the only strategy for certain classes/builds. An Archer HR will never stack enough defence or deflect to become 'tanky', for instance. And all toons have to solo at some point whether built for it or not. Without any kind of build-switching mechanism you are now left with having a build gimped for one of the two modes of play.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • sangrinesangrine Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    It's not a matter of being a good strategy. It's a matter of being the only strategy for certain classes/builds. An Archer HR will never stack enough defence or deflect to become 'tanky', for instance. And all toons have to solo at some point whether built for it or not. Without any kind of build-switching mechanism you are now left with having a build gimped for one of the two modes of play.

    Stacking defence/deflect is a bad idea for most classes, but especially for dps classes such as archery HR.
    Stacking hitpoints, lifesteal and using a healer/protector/tank companion is a much better idea for dps class.
    Many people do not know how or are simply unwilling to make their dps character more tanky.
    For example, if you respec that HR to trapper, survivability will increase.

    I have never seen a dps DC on this forum who complained about poor survivability. yet so many dps HR's complain about poor survivability.
  • azlanfoxazlanfox Member Posts: 436 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    It's not a matter of being a good strategy. It's a matter of being the only strategy for certain classes/builds. An Archer HR will never stack enough defence or deflect to become 'tanky', for instance. And all toons have to solo at some point whether built for it or not. Without any kind of build-switching mechanism you are now left with having a build gimped for one of the two modes of play.

    This, this right here. They don't give us an easy means of swapping builds. It costs AD to spec or Zen for a token to retool for another task. I'm also not rich enough to carry a whole separate set of armor (with full enchants) for a 'tanky' build or 'dps' build. I certainly am not going to be able to pay to swap things around to do dailies and then pay again to run dungeons, or farm RP, or whatever.

    I know for a fact, it matters very little how much defense you stack on HRs, they are just too soft to absorb hits for long if you can't take down the mobs. The gear structure is also not forgiving, you can't get crit <or power>, arpen, defense, and deflect on everything in high enough values to be perfect.
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  • goatsharkgoatshark Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    First, I want to give a little clarity on where these changes are actually reflected. The patch notes were wrong and have been updated to say: critters level 61-70+ ... anything below level 61 was unaffected by the change.

    As for the reasoning behind this update, it's meant to target specific facets of difficulty, and address some concerns we have with how players gear and progress.

    Right out of the gate, we wanted to drastically reduce the chance of an Alpha strike; foes had been instantly killing players too frequently in the new zones, and there was nothing you, as a player, could do about it. Through internal testing, we found a value that made this much less likely to happen, without making it so weak that you didn't have to actually play the game. When we tried lowering it further, we found we didn't need to avoid attacks at all, and you could just stand still pressing buttons. That's not what NW combat is about; as part of action combat, you're supposed to have to dodge.

    We upped the critter health because right now, once you had "good enough" damage on gear (weapons especially), not only didn't you feel the need to improve your gear, if you DID go through the effort of improving it, you didn't notice a difference because everything already died too quickly.

    Previously, once a player hit a certain threshold of damage output, defensive stats were all you wanted. This is no longer necessarily the case, especially as the player gets better at using their defensive tools and powers.

    It is worth mentioning that these changes also make power choice more important. Carrying disruption and control powers in your damage build now has a much more pointed benefit in solo content. Areas like Sharandar, Dread Ring, and Icewind Dale will still be very difficult solo, as was originally intended when they became level 71, 72, and 73 respectively.
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  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    sangrine wrote: »
    It's not a matter of being a good strategy. It's a matter of being the only strategy for certain classes/builds. An Archer HR will never stack enough defence or deflect to become 'tanky', for instance. And all toons have to solo at some point whether built for it or not. Without any kind of build-switching mechanism you are now left with having a build gimped for one of the two modes of play.

    Stacking defence/deflect is a bad idea for most classes, but especially for dps classes such as archery HR.
    Stacking hitpoints, lifesteal and using a healer/protector/tank companion is a much better idea for dps class.
    Many people do not know how or are simply unwilling to make their dps character more tanky.
    For example, if you respec that HR to trapper, survivability will increase.

    I have never seen a dps DC on this forum who complained about poor survivability. yet so many dps HR's complain about poor survivability.
    I have an Epic tank companion and currently around 65k HP. I am also stacking LS as high as possible. I have defensive boons where they make sense (extra HP and LS for instance). I am in no way, shape, or form a 'glass canon' build.

    I love it when people talk like nobody else ever thought of these things.
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    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
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  • edited June 2015
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  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    goatshark wrote: »
    Areas like Sharandar, Dread Ring, and Icewind Dale will still be very difficult solo, as was originally intended when they became level 71, 72, and 73 respectively.

    But why? What's the point to making a repetitive daily slog more of a slog? This isn't where your players who are looking for a social cooperative gaming experience want to spend the bulk of their time (that would be the dungeons), and it's punitive towards your players who want to play Neverwinter but couldn't give a hoot about it being an MMO and just want to faff around without being miserable.

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  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,464 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    sangrine wrote: »
    A character built for soloing should not be only offensive.
    Kill them before they kill you is an unreliable strategy when soloing.
    No pity from me for players who think this is a good strategy.
    It's not a matter of being a good strategy. It's a matter of being the only strategy for certain classes/builds. An Archer HR will never stack enough defence or deflect to become 'tanky', for instance. And all toons have to solo at some point whether built for it or not. Without any kind of build-switching mechanism you are now left with having a build gimped for one of the two modes of play.

    I can vouch for that, at least in dungeons. I've stacked 20k defense and 100k HP and it's barely enough for open-world IWD, though it's still really dicey. It might as well be zero in dungeons.
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  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,464 Arc User
    goatshark wrote: »
    It is worth mentioning that these changes also make power choice more important. Carrying disruption and control powers in your damage build now has a much more pointed benefit in solo content. Areas like Sharandar, Dread Ring, and Icewind Dale will still be very difficult solo, as was originally intended when they became level 71, 72, and 73 respectively.

    For us archer HR's, I'd like to know what those control powers are, aside from the Disruptive Shot daily. The one-second root from Constricting Arrow is so useless as to be laughable.

    I'm sick to death of being told "respec to Trapper". That is a non-starter.
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  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    sangrine wrote: »
    I have never seen a dps DC on this forum who complained about poor survivability. yet so many dps HR's complain about poor survivability.
    I missed this gem. Even a DPS build DC has more defence than a defensively built HR. And importantly they have CC and self healing. Only a Trapper HR has significant CC and no HR has self healing. Even trying to compare the two betrays a huge lack of knowledge about HRs.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    goatshark wrote: »
    Right out of the gate, we wanted to drastically reduce the chance of an Alpha strike; foes had been instantly killing players too frequently in the new zones, and there was nothing you, as a player, could do about it. Through internal testing, we found a value that made this much less likely to happen, without making it so weak that you didn't have to actually play the game. When we tried lowering it further, we found we didn't need to avoid attacks at all, and you could just stand still pressing buttons. That's not what NW combat is about; as part of action combat, you're supposed to have to dodge.
    Which is fine, but there's a huge difference in effectiveness of dodging across the different classes. What about those classes whose dodge offers little defence - SW and arguably HR for a start.
    goatshark wrote: »
    We upped the critter health because right now, once you had "good enough" damage on gear (weapons especially), not only didn't you feel the need to improve your gear, if you DID go through the effort of improving it, you didn't notice a difference because everything already died too quickly.

    Previously, once a player hit a certain threshold of damage output, defensive stats were all you wanted. This is no longer necessarily the case, especially as the player gets better at using their defensive tools and powers.
    I'm sorry, but this simply does not reflect my experience of the game or - I suspect - that of the majority. In nearly 2 years of playing multiple classes I have never felt I had 'enough' damage or that I couldn't benefit from more. Now I'm even further behind the curve it seems.
    goatshark wrote: »
    It is worth mentioning that these changes also make power choice more important. Carrying disruption and control powers in your damage build now has a much more pointed benefit in solo content. Areas like Sharandar, Dread Ring, and Icewind Dale will still be very difficult solo, as was originally intended when they became level 71, 72, and 73 respectively.
    Some classes and build are almost completely lacking in CC or disruption powers and even where you carry them (and I'm a big fan of doing so) the L61+ mobs have so much CC resistance that their effectiveness is extremely limited.

    Overall it seems to me that this is an example of the development team being completely out of touch with the gaming experience of the average player.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    goatshark wrote: »
    Areas like Sharandar, Dread Ring, and Icewind Dale will still be very difficult solo, as was originally intended when they became level 71, 72, and 73 respectively.

    But why? What's the point to making a repetitive daily slog more of a slog? This isn't where your players who are looking for a social cooperative gaming experience want to spend the bulk of their time (that would be the dungeons), and it's punitive towards your players who want to play Neverwinter but couldn't give a hoot about it being an MMO and just want to faff around without being miserable.
    This. A 1000 times this. What possible justification is there for effectively forcing people to team up for what should be simple daily tasks?
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    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • matthiasthehun76matthiasthehun76 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    @magenubbie summed all my questions i would have asked up.

    Tank classes, especially the poor GF, which has very limited self healing and nearly zero lifesteal by default has a hard time, so do healing DCs. The mobs respawn faster, than an average GF or DC can kill them.

    On the other hand dungeons take even longer and sadly bosses are not affected, and they are the most annoying 1 shots to all of us.

    @bekylunatic is right too, why let solo completly die out. Sorry dear Devs, but go out into Zone Chat and see for yourselves how helpful people are towards eachother (no comment on this...), zero to sum it up and as much as i would like to help a beginner, if i spend all my time helping a guildie for instance, i won't have time for my toons on the end of the day, so please bring back solo play to campaign zones.

    Before Mod 6 it was so well done, campaign meant solo or group as one liked, while dungeons and PVP group play.
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  • azlanfoxazlanfox Member Posts: 436 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    goatshark wrote: »
    Right out of the gate, we wanted to drastically reduce the chance of an Alpha strike; foes had been instantly killing players too frequently in the new zones, and there was nothing you, as a player, could do about it. Through internal testing, we found a value that made this much less likely to happen, without making it so weak that you didn't have to actually play the game. When we tried lowering it further, we found we didn't need to avoid attacks at all, and you could just stand still pressing buttons. That's not what NW combat is about; as part of action combat, you're supposed to have to dodge.

    I agree, the 1-shot kill is was not cool. However, I still believe I shouldn't have to carpal tunnel myself to fight minion/trash mobs. You really don't understand what a fantasy hero is do you?

    Also, how are you going to adjust for classes that do not have a defensive dodge?

    Your abysmal AI also needs some delay built into it, encounters tend to be too much of a twitch fest. Your mobs react far too quickly and precisely. You all need to really look into the PnP perception skill levels, intelligence, and Wisdom and not just their initiative/reaction modifiers.
    goatshark wrote: »
    We upped the critter health because right now, once you had "good enough" damage on gear (weapons especially), not only didn't you feel the need to improve your gear, if you DID go through the effort of improving it, you didn't notice a difference because everything already died too quickly.

    Previously, once a player hit a certain threshold of damage output, defensive stats were all you wanted. This is no longer necessarily the case, especially as the player gets better at using their defensive tools and powers.

    Who the flaming **** ever had "good enough" damage? I was BiS in gear before artifact gear rolled around and never did I ever say, "that's good enough". It was never good enough.
    Post edited by lewstelamon01 on
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