I would say IBS doesn't hit hard enough with no stacks. Base damage should be up 40% in trade off daggers buff as Aurox said.
PS: on potatoes it should deal 100% crit chance plus piercing trough stealth.
HAHAHAHA I agree on the PS part. can we get DEVS to make a special code please? I actually argued with Sicarius who said Shocking Bypassing DR was fine and TRs needed a damage buff to say that GWFs while Unstoppable need stealth reveal then. If they cn bypass our defensive tab mechanic we should bypass theirs.
This is 10000% accurate. What GWfs really need is a massive boost to BASE damage at the expense of Daggers. So remove the stackable damage bonus from hidden daggers. In PVP this will end up being between a 40-80% damage reduction. THEN add that 40% damage increase to the BASE damage of the class.
Then I would remove Powerful Challenge 15% damage bonus and make Strength = 2% damage (up from 1%). This would be another "net zero change" for GWFs with 25 STR (mind you STR is our PRIMARY stat).
Then I was talking to Roidz last night also Dom as well and we thought it MIGHT be a good idea to remove the 20% damage bonus from Mark altogether. Mark would only provide combat advantage which also provides Combat Adv damage bonus. This would reduce GFs damage by 20% as well as GWFs. So this too could be added to the base of the GWF class.
All of this removes the reliance on Mark and Daggers along with a Sentinel feat. Which you THEN could use that Sent feat as a way to mitigate incoming damage instead. I would also rework Countless Scars to work in REVERSE what it does now. Currently its another "negation" that stacks 15 times @ 1% each. I would reverse this so the GWF has MORE DR initially and then LOSES that DR as hit. This alows PVE GWFs to tank better and actually hurts PVP GWFs tankiness.
For those that are ignorant: IBS isnt the issue. IBS on a DUMMY without stacks hit for like 10-12k. Its when you build up ALL the stacks + mark + CAB etc that IBS will hit dummies for 150k+ and then when you add debuffs or ITF - I hit a DC for 100k last night.
The MAX potential to hit hard IMO is too much, but the stacking mechanic we have now is HAMSTER. So a reduction of "top potential" DPS is warranted but it needs to be MUCH easier to build up stacks.
+1 for this from me too but I'm afraid if they "rework" it'll be either same stack buffs with higher base damage or same base damage with nerfed stack buffs. I don't trust them so maybe just leaving as it is now is a better idea. Even though it's like a gamble to play GWF.
I would say IBS doesn't hit hard enough with no stacks. Base damage should be up 40% in trade off daggers buff as Aurox said.
PS: on potatoes it should deal 100% crit chance plus piercing trough stealth.
HAHAHAHA I agree on the PS part. can we get DEVS to make a special code please? I actually argued with Sicarius who said Shocking Bypassing DR was fine and TRs needed a damage buff to say that GWFs while Unstoppable need stealth reveal then. If they cn bypass our defensive tab mechanic we should bypass theirs.
This is 10000% accurate. What GWfs really need is a massive boost to BASE damage at the expense of Daggers. So remove the stackable damage bonus from hidden daggers. In PVP this will end up being between a 40-80% damage reduction. THEN add that 40% damage increase to the BASE damage of the class.
Then I would remove Powerful Challenge 15% damage bonus and make Strength = 2% damage (up from 1%). This would be another "net zero change" for GWFs with 25 STR (mind you STR is our PRIMARY stat).
Then I was talking to Roidz last night also Dom as well and we thought it MIGHT be a good idea to remove the 20% damage bonus from Mark altogether. Mark would only provide combat advantage which also provides Combat Adv damage bonus. This would reduce GFs damage by 20% as well as GWFs. So this too could be added to the base of the GWF class.
All of this removes the reliance on Mark and Daggers along with a Sentinel feat. Which you THEN could use that Sent feat as a way to mitigate incoming damage instead. I would also rework Countless Scars to work in REVERSE what it does now. Currently its another "negation" that stacks 15 times @ 1% each. I would reverse this so the GWF has MORE DR initially and then LOSES that DR as hit. This alows PVE GWFs to tank better and actually hurts PVP GWFs tankiness.
For those that are ignorant: IBS isnt the issue. IBS on a DUMMY without stacks hit for like 10-12k. Its when you build up ALL the stacks + mark + CAB etc that IBS will hit dummies for 150k+ and then when you add debuffs or ITF - I hit a DC for 100k last night.
The MAX potential to hit hard IMO is too much, but the stacking mechanic we have now is HAMSTER. So a reduction of "top potential" DPS is warranted but it needs to be MUCH easier to build up stacks.
+1 for this from me too but I'm afraid if they "rework" it'll be either same stack buffs with higher base damage or same base damage with nerfed stack buffs. I don't trust them so maybe just leaving as it is now is a better idea. Even though it's like a gamble to play GWF.
Yeah its just HAMSTER TBH. I think its really two issues:
1) The fact that Destroyer is only 25% chance to gain a stack and stacks last 4 seconds.
2) Daggers makes you jump backwards.
Those are the two that REALLY get me.... So even adjusting those to be more like a 50% chance to gain a stack and 5-6 seconds would alleviate that ALOT - which wouldnt affect PVE at all. Then REMOVING the "jump backwards" mechanic on Daggers would also SIGNIFICANTLY increase our QoL.
Heck for Focused Destroyer I would even be perfectly fine with REMOVING the "extra 3.5% damage per stack" (which would be over a 10% nerf) if the proc % to gain a stack was over 50% and lasted ATLEAST 5 seconds.
Then secondary two issues would be:
1) Destroyer stacks only available after getting unstoppable.
2) The amount of damage bonus Mark provides.
Try standing in a DCs AS and get determination. Its a JOKE and without the capstone we deal dumb damage.
Try playing SM and NOT marking a target in PVP. Its a JOKE. Id love to use other things but IV is forced for PVP and so is daggers. Same with Sure Strike for PVP along with Destroyer. So half my powers right there - you have ZERO ZERO ZERO options, its all forced if you want to be competitive.
I would say IBS doesn't hit hard enough with no stacks. Base damage should be up 40% in trade off daggers buff as Aurox said.
PS: on potatoes it should deal 100% crit chance plus piercing trough stealth.
HAHAHAHA I agree on the PS part. can we get DEVS to make a special code please? I actually argued with Sicarius who said Shocking Bypassing DR was fine and TRs needed a damage buff to say that GWFs while Unstoppable need stealth reveal then. If they cn bypass our defensive tab mechanic we should bypass theirs.
This is 10000% accurate. What GWfs really need is a massive boost to BASE damage at the expense of Daggers. So remove the stackable damage bonus from hidden daggers. In PVP this will end up being between a 40-80% damage reduction. THEN add that 40% damage increase to the BASE damage of the class.
Then I would remove Powerful Challenge 15% damage bonus and make Strength = 2% damage (up from 1%). This would be another "net zero change" for GWFs with 25 STR (mind you STR is our PRIMARY stat).
Then I was talking to Roidz last night also Dom as well and we thought it MIGHT be a good idea to remove the 20% damage bonus from Mark altogether. Mark would only provide combat advantage which also provides Combat Adv damage bonus. This would reduce GFs damage by 20% as well as GWFs. So this too could be added to the base of the GWF class.
All of this removes the reliance on Mark and Daggers along with a Sentinel feat. Which you THEN could use that Sent feat as a way to mitigate incoming damage instead. I would also rework Countless Scars to work in REVERSE what it does now. Currently its another "negation" that stacks 15 times @ 1% each. I would reverse this so the GWF has MORE DR initially and then LOSES that DR as hit. This alows PVE GWFs to tank better and actually hurts PVP GWFs tankiness.
For those that are ignorant: IBS isnt the issue. IBS on a DUMMY without stacks hit for like 10-12k. Its when you build up ALL the stacks + mark + CAB etc that IBS will hit dummies for 150k+ and then when you add debuffs or ITF - I hit a DC for 100k last night.
The MAX potential to hit hard IMO is too much, but the stacking mechanic we have now is HAMSTER. So a reduction of "top potential" DPS is warranted but it needs to be MUCH easier to build up stacks.
+1 for this from me too but I'm afraid if they "rework" it'll be either same stack buffs with higher base damage or same base damage with nerfed stack buffs. I don't trust them so maybe just leaving as it is now is a better idea. Even though it's like a gamble to play GWF.
Yeah its just HAMSTER TBH. I think its really two issues:
1) The fact that Destroyer is only 25% chance to gain a stack and stacks last 4 seconds.
2) Daggers makes you jump backwards.
Those are the two that REALLY get me.... So even adjusting those to be more like a 50% chance to gain a stack and 5-6 seconds would alleviate that ALOT - which wouldnt affect PVE at all. Then REMOVING the "jump backwards" mechanic on Daggers would also SIGNIFICANTLY increase our QoL.
Heck for Focused Destroyer I would even be perfectly fine with REMOVING the "extra 3.5% damage per stack" (which would be over a 10% nerf) if the proc % to gain a stack was over 50% and lasted ATLEAST 5 seconds.
Then secondary two issues would be:
1) Destroyer stacks only available after getting unstoppable.
2) The amount of damage bonus Mark provides.
Try standing in a DCs AS and get determination. Its a JOKE and without the capstone we deal dumb damage.
Try playing SM and NOT marking a target in PVP. Its a JOKE. Id love to use other things but IV is forced for PVP and so is daggers. Same with Sure Strike for PVP along with Destroyer. So half my powers right there - you have ZERO ZERO ZERO options, its all forced if you want to be competitive.
Yeah you are totally right but I don't see any easy solution for us without breaking the class completely either good or bad for us.
You know actually what would be cool? The daggers backjump much faster and "DODGE". That would chance many things actually...
Seems like there are two different schools of thought within the discussion.
■ One of it, which was usually seen with the discussions early on, is a group of people wanting the damage of the GWF brought down a lot lower, and in compensation fixing up the inefficiencies laden with the class in almost everything it does.
■ The other, seems to be more recent line of suggestions noticeable in the past few pages up to current, which seems to want to tweak/shuffle around the damage buffs of the class so it is less severe, but in general overall intensity of the damage remaining the same.
In my case I, of course, support the former. IMO the latter suggestions have some fundamental flaws in that it really doesn't change anything about how the GWF is played.
Basically, to me, the current incarnation of GWFs, is simply like the lottery. It is literally all-or-nothing with the GWF class. Either it gets kited around forever and gets KOd, or it manages one of its powerful rotations and the fight ends in seconds. To me this is the worst part of what the GWF is, and this basically makes it lame for both the player, and the opponent.
IMO the latter line of arguments seem to want to streamline how the GWF gets its damage buffs, which means it would be even more easier to crank up max damage for those who are ALREADY BiS -- in that they've got enough gear and spec to survive while they keep trying for that "lottery" until they hit jackpot and 2~3 shot their opponents, but at the fundamental level wouldn't benefit for squat how GWF players at low-mid IL ranges are doing. In other words, the current BiS level players and their characters would be even more insanely high damage with even more survivability (easier damage gains = faster kills = less time exposed under fire), but things would not be so helpful to others.
...I don't think its the way to go. I think the way with GWFs is a total redesign/streamline of their encounters, at-wills and combat mechanics so that there's a real "fight" going on when you fight a GWF. Like mentioned above, fighting a BiS GWF currently is hardly a "fight" that has exchange of power or skill, It's basically bull fighting -- either the matador kills the bull without even a scratch, or the bull impales the matador. One extreme or the other.
This is probably what makes the GWF so much lame to fight as, or against.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
"Like mentioned above, fighting a BiS GWF currently is hardly a "fight" that has exchange of power or skill, It's basically bull fighting -- either the matador kills the bull without even a scratch, or the bull impales the matador. One extreme or the other.
This is probably what makes the GWF so much lame to fight as, or against. "
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
edited July 2015
I gotta say GWF is more advantagous vs 'generic' HR, however for those that knows the trick, they have the upper hand beating GWF, and the different lays on using one specific skill at the right time... consult Intergatica (HR) for more details....
Back to the topic, as I stated above, I believe the main reason TRs are against this nerf is because TR does not deal enough damage to kill most of the geared opponents without SE doing the big spiky hit (which again is mainly against GWF and SW), however if we remove piercing damage and make SE respect to Def/Tenancity, then with the current state of TR, it would make them really hard to take down very tanky opponents, which puts them in a very disadvantaged situation (yes they still have super survability, but the dmg output is gonna be bad) and since TR is a 'striker' class, this makes not much sense.
I propose to keep TR's SE's dmg, but remove the piercing (so its respective to Def/Tenancity), however buff up their At-Will and Encounter's damage, not hugely, but marginally so it is inline to compensate their lose in SE's piercing damage. I would prefer to see TR a more skilled character than a 'hide and spam at-will/encounters for easy win' type of character, cus really, its not much fun and ppl would not respect your 'skill'.
Many TR said COS (or is it COD? the dagger throwing at-will) is useless yet many still uses it, the truth is, when a HR is highly geared, the full stack of dagger is still capable of taking 30~50k opponent's health away at little-to-no-effort (at least against GWF/SW where we can't dodge and would be forced to eat the full stack), and this is heavily due to the piercing damage and eLOL set (yes they get 100% crit in stealth so with eLOL set I guess thats a 100% proc too?) so while the dagger itself might not deal huge dmg on its own, combining with Piercing Damage, 100% crit and eLOL's proc, the daggers can output a significant amount of dmg. I personally would like to see this skill go back to its original stacks or again remove the piercing damage.
So what's left for TR if we adjust SE and the At-Will's piercings? I expect Dev to then buff TR's dmg with either a bonus (x% weapon dmg) or buff up some encounter/at-will's damage by say 10~30%, so they could use a mix-and-match skill sets/at-wills to more skillfully tackle down their opponent.
After all, SE imo, is an EXECUTION skill and is meant for 'Dealing One Last Big Hit', I dont believe the design of that skill was for TR to spam for easy big damage, but rather dealing the last hit when opponent's HP is below 30% or so, the way the daily's damage is penetrating through Tenancity/Defence and hitting so much dmg all-the-time is just wrong imo, if its only usable when their opponent's HP is 30% or below, then I think it would be more in-line with the design...
2k you say... multiply it for 2 and we are there. These gwf these day are just wanna be potatoes. Bring intergalactic if its reallt that good against i dont know sobek ? And lets see how it ends. If something is sure gwf does not need more damage or same damage more reliable.
Comments
+1 for this from me too but I'm afraid if they "rework" it'll be either same stack buffs with higher base damage or same base damage with nerfed stack buffs. I don't trust them so maybe just leaving as it is now is a better idea. Even though it's like a gamble to play GWF.
Yeah its just HAMSTER TBH. I think its really two issues:
1) The fact that Destroyer is only 25% chance to gain a stack and stacks last 4 seconds.
2) Daggers makes you jump backwards.
Those are the two that REALLY get me.... So even adjusting those to be more like a 50% chance to gain a stack and 5-6 seconds would alleviate that ALOT - which wouldnt affect PVE at all. Then REMOVING the "jump backwards" mechanic on Daggers would also SIGNIFICANTLY increase our QoL.
Heck for Focused Destroyer I would even be perfectly fine with REMOVING the "extra 3.5% damage per stack" (which would be over a 10% nerf) if the proc % to gain a stack was over 50% and lasted ATLEAST 5 seconds.
Then secondary two issues would be:
1) Destroyer stacks only available after getting unstoppable.
2) The amount of damage bonus Mark provides.
Try standing in a DCs AS and get determination. Its a JOKE and without the capstone we deal dumb damage.
Try playing SM and NOT marking a target in PVP. Its a JOKE. Id love to use other things but IV is forced for PVP and so is daggers. Same with Sure Strike for PVP along with Destroyer. So half my powers right there - you have ZERO ZERO ZERO options, its all forced if you want to be competitive.
Yeah you are totally right but I don't see any easy solution for us without breaking the class completely either good or bad for us.
You know actually what would be cool? The daggers backjump much faster and "DODGE". That would chance many things actually...
■ One of it, which was usually seen with the discussions early on, is a group of people wanting the damage of the GWF brought down a lot lower, and in compensation fixing up the inefficiencies laden with the class in almost everything it does.
■ The other, seems to be more recent line of suggestions noticeable in the past few pages up to current, which seems to want to tweak/shuffle around the damage buffs of the class so it is less severe, but in general overall intensity of the damage remaining the same.
In my case I, of course, support the former. IMO the latter suggestions have some fundamental flaws in that it really doesn't change anything about how the GWF is played.
Basically, to me, the current incarnation of GWFs, is simply like the lottery. It is literally all-or-nothing with the GWF class. Either it gets kited around forever and gets KOd, or it manages one of its powerful rotations and the fight ends in seconds. To me this is the worst part of what the GWF is, and this basically makes it lame for both the player, and the opponent.
IMO the latter line of arguments seem to want to streamline how the GWF gets its damage buffs, which means it would be even more easier to crank up max damage for those who are ALREADY BiS -- in that they've got enough gear and spec to survive while they keep trying for that "lottery" until they hit jackpot and 2~3 shot their opponents, but at the fundamental level wouldn't benefit for squat how GWF players at low-mid IL ranges are doing. In other words, the current BiS level players and their characters would be even more insanely high damage with even more survivability (easier damage gains = faster kills = less time exposed under fire), but things would not be so helpful to others.
...I don't think its the way to go. I think the way with GWFs is a total redesign/streamline of their encounters, at-wills and combat mechanics so that there's a real "fight" going on when you fight a GWF. Like mentioned above, fighting a BiS GWF currently is hardly a "fight" that has exchange of power or skill, It's basically bull fighting -- either the matador kills the bull without even a scratch, or the bull impales the matador. One extreme or the other.
This is probably what makes the GWF so much lame to fight as, or against.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
"Like mentioned above, fighting a BiS GWF currently is hardly a "fight" that has exchange of power or skill, It's basically bull fighting -- either the matador kills the bull without even a scratch, or the bull impales the matador. One extreme or the other.
This is probably what makes the GWF so much lame to fight as, or against. "
way less damage way more consistent
Back to the topic, as I stated above, I believe the main reason TRs are against this nerf is because TR does not deal enough damage to kill most of the geared opponents without SE doing the big spiky hit (which again is mainly against GWF and SW), however if we remove piercing damage and make SE respect to Def/Tenancity, then with the current state of TR, it would make them really hard to take down very tanky opponents, which puts them in a very disadvantaged situation (yes they still have super survability, but the dmg output is gonna be bad) and since TR is a 'striker' class, this makes not much sense.
I propose to keep TR's SE's dmg, but remove the piercing (so its respective to Def/Tenancity), however buff up their At-Will and Encounter's damage, not hugely, but marginally so it is inline to compensate their lose in SE's piercing damage. I would prefer to see TR a more skilled character than a 'hide and spam at-will/encounters for easy win' type of character, cus really, its not much fun and ppl would not respect your 'skill'.
Many TR said COS (or is it COD? the dagger throwing at-will) is useless yet many still uses it, the truth is, when a HR is highly geared, the full stack of dagger is still capable of taking 30~50k opponent's health away at little-to-no-effort (at least against GWF/SW where we can't dodge and would be forced to eat the full stack), and this is heavily due to the piercing damage and eLOL set (yes they get 100% crit in stealth so with eLOL set I guess thats a 100% proc too?) so while the dagger itself might not deal huge dmg on its own, combining with Piercing Damage, 100% crit and eLOL's proc, the daggers can output a significant amount of dmg. I personally would like to see this skill go back to its original stacks or again remove the piercing damage.
So what's left for TR if we adjust SE and the At-Will's piercings? I expect Dev to then buff TR's dmg with either a bonus (x% weapon dmg) or buff up some encounter/at-will's damage by say 10~30%, so they could use a mix-and-match skill sets/at-wills to more skillfully tackle down their opponent.
After all, SE imo, is an EXECUTION skill and is meant for 'Dealing One Last Big Hit', I dont believe the design of that skill was for TR to spam for easy big damage, but rather dealing the last hit when opponent's HP is below 30% or so, the way the daily's damage is penetrating through Tenancity/Defence and hitting so much dmg all-the-time is just wrong imo, if its only usable when their opponent's HP is 30% or below, then I think it would be more in-line with the design...
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