I thought Heroic + R5-7 was baseline. Heroic gear is easily acquirable and the reason why Mercenary gear is skipped over unless you are VERY lazy, impatient, broke, or some combination thereof. I do get your point that very few people run R9 mods and those shouldn't used as a baseline though.
Eh lol, you might be right. I was not trying to say what "baseline" is but pointed out that Legion's + R9 might not be that representative of "baseline/average" toon power lvl. That's pretty much it.
I thought Heroic + R5-7 was baseline. Heroic gear is easily acquirable and the reason why Mercenary gear is skipped over unless you are VERY lazy, impatient, broke, or some combination thereof. I do get your point that very few people run R9 mods and those shouldn't used as a baseline though.
I don't think Heroic is a baseline nor is Merc. I honestly don't think a lot of people grind that stuff out.
But I've said my bit and expect it to count for nothing against the secret Uber-lEet player council and the Cryptic nerf brigade. I just want this over with so we can get some ****ing content instead of this.
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Blue LV40 Primaries with 2-slot each + Purple LV40 Secondaries or 11KQ Secondaries.
These are easy enough to get and with the recent bloodmoon crypt missions it's even easier. I myself put tens of them on AH and they are getting sold quickly. It's reasonable to think that a group of people use these kind of items before switching to Heroic/Merc/Legion.
Nice math, but i'd rather they have adjusted dodge for those using LR instead of just nerfing LR. Implement a soft cap for when you get over like 70% for dodge rating know?
Makes me think, put LR at 25/45/65%, hard cap dodge to 70% with Passive + Gear, then force all those LR's to use something other than Lucky Gems! And have to find other ways to get more dodge...other powers, specs, what have you.
I say this because, people are already saying you can hit 70% Dodge even in the new patch. There, new mods will become popular for LR users!
Just did a quick testing on my LR tank character and everything seems alright actually. Definitely she doesn't feel as tanky as she used to be, but she's more in line with my other tanks (invuln, defiance, regen) when it comes to damage mitigation.
FYI my char only uses blue quality gear, and has 0 dodge/avo enhancing mods. Though I use Twist of Fate spec for the extra 9% crit/dodge, Thundering Kicks and Evasive Maneuvers.
Long story short, in fact this patch felt quite good for my LR char
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I don't think Heroic is a baseline nor is Merc. I honestly don't think a lot of people grind that stuff out.
But I've said my bit and expect it to count for nothing against the secret Uber-lEet player council and the Cryptic nerf brigade. I just want this over with so we can get some ****ing content instead of this.
The other possible baseline would be the Nemesis/Vanguard/11K Questionite scaling gear. They're easily acquirable and because they scale with level, some people might keep them on even when they reach 40. The downside to that is the stat boosts are very low (I believe they are outmatched by equivalent level green gear) and the utility pieces are missing cooldown and cost reductions.
That said, I'd like to think the balance fixes are a prelude to new content. It's hard to make new content when there is such a large gap in power level between characters. Narrowing that gap would be the first step. For an example, check out how many and what kind of characters run Gravitar. I'm hoping the new Rampage Alert will be more inclusive.
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LR users are going to be more than fine. I will likely switch every defensive character I have to LR after the patch.
Hopefully I get a chance to do some more testing today. [ a big robot fist in the air to people who claim I don't test*]
I spend a lot of time in game doing RP [you know that think like PvP that doesn't come up often?] So I don't test as much as I might like.
*I do find hysterical the assumption that if I do test I'll automatically agree with the Nerf crowd.
Here we are now going to the West Side
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Watching out for a sunny day
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On that note, about testing gear, something I'd forgotten to mention..
It doesn't help us test typical builds and gear if the mods we have in the 'Mods for testing' are all purple... >.>
just saying
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
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On that note, about testing gear, something I'd forgotten to mention..
It doesn't help us test typical builds and gear if the mods we have in the 'Mods for testing' are all purple... >.>
just saying
Run the Bloodmoon Crypts with a Lv40. Each run net you a UNTIL Equipment box, plus another you net from the undead hero before the crypt. Sometimes the crypt mission bugs out allowing you to take it again after you done the 1st time, this make 3 UNTIL Equipment box from one undead hero.
Has anyone run a levelling build with the nerfs yet?
Reason I ask is I don't recollect having great dodge gear on anything under lev 35. Is EM now mandatory for my LR builds?
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
Currently on live with LR and spamming thundering kicks I can quickly get up to 130% dodge chance while tanking on my main...add masterful dodge and with bcr + rr and my life bar barely seems to drop most of the time...
Well, I can see a lot more bird people in the game when this hits live I suppose. I will feel a bit less special but will have a bit more company now I suppose. :biggrin:
Since the new VTOL is getting 3 weapon slots, is there any chance that the martinez will get a weapon slot to match this one? Seeing as how incredibly rare/expensive/difficult the martinez was to come by, as well as being one the best looking. I think it would be fair!
Run the Bloodmoon Crypts with a Lv40. Each run net you a UNTIL Equipment box, plus another you net from the undead hero before the crypt. Sometimes the crypt mission bugs out allowing you to take it again after you done the 1st time, this make 3 UNTIL Equipment box from one undead hero.
Rinse and Repeat.
I hadn't intended to test the Crypts since as far as I know, there's no change.
So what do we do when BM is no longer on test?
Here we are now going to the West Side
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Well, I can see a lot more bird people in the game when this hits live I suppose. I will feel a bit less special but will have a bit more company now I suppose. :biggrin:
Or that Millennial Flight.
And let's not forget that a lot more people will have 16K refinement cap. That's probably gonna do a minor short-term shake on the economy.
Grind for the Grind God! Tokens for the Token Throne!
So.. I took one of my LR toons, a really old one -I picked her because her gear really isn't very good.
Trigger;
Live-
Dodge- 61.8
Avoidance - 77.5
Test w/no gear-
Dodge- 51.6
Avoidance - 66.8
Test w/same sad gear-
Dodge- 59.6
Avoidance - 75
Test w/Justice Gear-
Dodge- 58.1
Avoidance - 86.8
As you can see, I went through some trouble to boost my avoidance; On the theory that this was the good part or Dodge/Avoidance.
Now I'll also say I tested this soloing Crusher [and dying], Radion and Amazing Grace [and succeeding on those]. Make of that what you will.
I kept an eye on my dodging. Unless I used Masterful Dodge, at no point did my dodge percentage rise above 75% even with EM [rank 1, remember i use it for the aggro wipe]
Now is it terrible?
No.
Did it make a big difference? Well see the above for yourself.
Do I think it's in line with existing defensive passives? No.
Look, I take a defensive passive to tank or pseudo tank if the character's theme calls for it. I don't have a lot of those toons.
My really tank-ish toons get Defiance or Invulnerable. That's on live. LR is worse than those too, you need to many additional powers to make it keep up with those too.
Can it exceed them? Sure, if you're Over-geared and all that.
Does dodge as a whole need a nerf? Probably not.
Do certain powers that add dodge and in combination of LR or other Defensive passive with other powers need a nerf? Maybe?
Does this make nerfing LR necessary? No.
Does this make nerfing Quarry or Night Warrior necessary? Nope.
This whole thing is like nerfing anything that grants Crits to fix Imbue [Old version]
It seems like Evasive Manuvers is the big thing everyone cites as 'this is how you break Dodge'.
Why not limit it to one stack?
Why not let it grant a single stack Defiance like Breakaway Shot?
Will this post be as big a waste of time as my last one? Yep.
Does it prove that I can do math before I got to test? Yep
Here we are now going to the West Side
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In game as @forgemccain
So let me get this straight. 60% base dodge (passive, character and gear with no added powers) on top of the high avoidance and the escalating reflexes (and the defense stacking available to nearly anyone who wants it through various spec trees with no hit to DPS though not even remotely necessary)...is somehow not viable when far less than this was viable before On Alert came and made the game significantly easier by ramping our power levels and doing next to nothing for the enemies?
Really wish people would put in the 5-10 minutes it takes to test stuff instead of fearmongering for no reason. Because half the complaints that I know to be untrue look downright silly at this point. Some of you are getting all worked up for no reason, no reason at all...and you'd know this quickly if you simply tested the stuff.
Kenpo....
If you're going to refer to pre-alert, you have to remember all the factors.
Dodge had a completely different mechanic, modified by the attacks activation time. 25% from a Tak was enough to have 100% dodge from a snipe shot for example. The big charge up hits were nearly guaranteed to go through dodge mitigation, where as all the quick hits went right through. To take LR was for the sake of getting heavy resistance at slow heavy hits at the cost of failing to mitigate most of the fast ones getting a reduced chance for fast attacks. BCR RR had no limit/internal cd, so the more incoming hits dodged meant more heals, so MD could heal someone very quickly with bcr. IDF was also a common power, providing extra mitigation to help with the minor attacks.
Also, pre-alert was when I first saw the dodge/avoid invul tanks. Sure they didn't have the higher dodge/avoid we have now, but the enemies we weaker as a whole. You only saw tough rated mobs in lairs like nemcon or Therakial's temple, not fighting them regularly in alerts like we do now. Tough mobs hit harder, have more hp and even have a perception boost to prevent people from sneaking around in phasing powers like teleport or tunneling.
Invuls with dodge/avoid gear (usually tak) was effectively superior to LR. It may not have had LRs dodge/avoid, but it mitigated damage regardless of a dodge. Throw in IDF and you start to see 1s regularly. Add bcr, there ya go. Heck, EM wasn't even regularly seen back then because the dodge boost wasn't worth giving up another power generally.
Now lets go to live. It's flat chance and offers bleed protection. The problem with chance is you may dodge all the minor hits that wouldn't do much regardless, but any big blow that makes it past the rng check effectively gets through unmitigated. I say unmitigated because the base defense stat provides horrendous mitigation, which is why dodge/avoid becaume the standard defensive plate in the first place.
However, LR has its saving grace in that there are powers that boost chance by flat percentages, allowing one to reach 90%+ much more consistently. In these situations, No passive can compete as far as mitigation goes, because avoidance provides so much more mitigation compared to defense. The biggest hole with LR are the attacks that get through, but if every attack has to go through dodge, no other def passive can match it when MD is down.
However, even those dodge chance buffing powers have a cost. Even with the heavy cd redux we get now, it's no longer possible to maintain MD almost indefinitely. Wesley was running a dodge/invul built around using radiance conviction, i think bcr, enrage relying on int spec to reduce cooldowns further. if I remember correctly, we'd have less than a 4s window before he had MD up, and mind you that's md on top of his invul while wearing dodge/avoid. It usually took at least 5 of us pvp specc'd to stand a chance of destroying him, but thankfully all that defense meant he wasn't a major threat offensively, just don't stand in his UR.
My FF tank went with invul as I could utilize pro mastery, MD, resurge, bcr, and dodge/avoid, allowing me to achieve similar numbers to a high dodge/avoid without having to constantly rely on EM and thundering kicks or lead tempest, etc to keep buffing chance. When you're fighting someone like Warlord, hitting EM is just asking for a fire patch. When you're fighting cybermind, you don't have the freedom to EM during the rain if you fail to interrupt it.
To give you an idea of the strength, I could basically take on as many npcs in warlord as I could hold threat. Munitions based, most of their damage was mitigated by the invul, bcr and vind spec tree healing and high enough con to last between cds and offer a buffer anytime I need to resurge. However, on the flip side, a singly yellow bubble of doom will take her out if dodge doesn't proc while blocking. Normally I can avoid the bubble, but if someone is tossing ice grenades or jumps on top of me last second with the targeting bubble, I'm not breaking the hold fast enough to get out and i'm just hoping I can get md and block off before the hit procs.
As far as regular alerts goes, she doesn't hit hard enough to worry about psimon or baron's reflective damage. Val's beam of doom is only relatively threatening, and the only attack I'd be concerned with is Kevin Poe since his output lately exceeds what I remember it being. And running DE allows her to heal while applying crippling challenge off SNP. She still needs tweaks but for me to change what I'd want to she'd lose her power tinting and I'm not exactly excited to sub.
Again, I'm not "discounting" your experience Kenpo - I'm merely reflecting upon my own.
Thnx Gerberatetra and others for some decent numbers.
Sigh keep wishing for roll back to pre FTP.
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
Finally got into PTS today and lol those are my numbers:
This is on my Quarry R3 toon (same gear in both cases):
Live:
Crit chance : 39.3
Dodge chance: 57.2
PTS:
Crit chance: 33
Dodge chance: 30.3
This toon was not breaking anything, it was survivable but nothing unkillable. My dodge is almost 1/2 of Live and my crit chance is 6.3% lower (that's a lot IMO).
I don't want to hear anyone tell me this is not a HUGE nerf because it is. Oh an this toon does not use Legion's, it uses Mercenary/Heroic and R5-6's. As such, this is the nerf an average (not elite) build should expect based on the current PTS.
Yeah....I'm going to really survive a lot with 30% dodge chance :rolleyes: This is the kind of BS I was talking about. People are blinded by Legion's and R9 MOD power levels and use that to say everything is OK. Well it's not.
I of keeping the passives as they were before and nerfing Evasive Maneuvers more. Put EM at ~10% for R3 and unable to stack then revert the dodge passive percentages to the previous PTS patch.
I of keeping the passives as they were before and nerfing Evasive Maneuvers more. Put EM at ~10% for R3 and unable to stack then revert the dodge passive percentages to the previous PTS patch.
If we're seriously talking about nerfing EM THIS much in order to lighten the nerf on Dodge Passives, then can we at least ADD SOMETHING to EM to still make it worth taking?
Your suggesting something like this...
EM R1= 5%
EM R2= 7%
EM R3= 10%
I'd like to suggest adding some Avoidance to the power to make up for the lower Dodge Chance. In one of two ways...
1st Way) %Avoidance matches the %Dodge Chance at each rank. R3=10% Avoidance.
2nd Way) Add a 1pt or 2pt Advantage that adds 10% Avoidance no mater the rank of the power.
I am also still very much dedicated to the idea that the SLIGHT OF MIND Advantage should be removed from EM and added to EGO PLACATE. As a Placate Advantage makes more sense on a Placate Power.
Speaking of Placates, while I happen to be thinking about it. How about boosting Smoke Bombs Max Targets amount to 10, this power seems kind of silly with only a 5 Target Max.
Oh, and the new drifter store VTOL should either be a 2/2/2 config or the Martinez upgraded to 3/2/2. Doesn't seem fair, especially with the Martinez being the top prize in the 4th anniversary box. Even at 2/2/2, the VTOL is a capable frame since it's got over 9k hps (versus the jets at 6.5k) and 130 energy versus the tank's 100.
Also, the flamethrower mk ii it comes with (along with micromunitions) is probably the single weakest weapon I've seen; 65' range, 30' cone, 5 max targets...and doing all of about 250 damage a tick, or less than the toggle guns mounted on vehicles. About its only saving grace is that it's relatively cheap energywise, unlike the worthless full battery barrage which not only does equally lousy damage but drains the entire energy bar.
What happened to crit chance?!! It looks like they implemented a softcap ~30%. The more Crit Strike I add the less crit chance Dex gives (substantially less).
According to the way things are on PTS getting past 30-34% is going to be really difficult through gear alone. Spec wise, EGO SS gives approximately 10% more crit chance than DEX SS.
This is a huge nerf. I used to be able to get around 45-50% crit chance through gear. Now it's around ~30% (DEX SS) or ~40 (EGO SS). This is without Vindicator. Are people blind? How can they not notice how much we got nerfed.
I noticed but I'm a lot more concerned about the dodge part than crits.
the crit nerf if I understand correctly from my testing and others feedback, you'll actually gain crit chance on characters with low crit chance. 30% crit chance plus specs is still enough to fuel things like killer instinct.
18% dodge is not enough to fuel RR however, and without seraphim passive or pres SS, BCR is an anemic heal even at rank 3.
I saw a suggestion for an extra advantage for BCR for 2 points which would buff the heal based on your defense value. I think the devs should add that, as it's a great idea which I don't think would be too hard to implement.
This is a big deal! The current DEX - Crit Strike interaction is utter rubbish. I understand they made Crit Strike give less but that's not what I'm seeing. What I see is a softcape at 30%. Currently if you stack both Crit Strike and DEX you get horrible returns on the investment.
I do think that the nerfs to both crit and dodge are poorly timed and being pushed in an unfinished state. I agree that it sucks big time on both counts. but I believe that the dodge part is going to be a much bigger issue than the crit aspect, that's all.
They are both absurd, they nerf us bad on dmg and horribly on defense. How is this leading to more diversified builds? What does Cryptic know of making a build, their toons are junk and can't do zilch without their Dev commands. Not one dev has ever EVER made a toon better than a vet's. Heck, their building skills are marginally better than that of a new player. They have no clue what they are saying. That announcement they posted regarding cirt/dodge is just PR BS they shove us down our throats.
Where do people get their numbers that they say those changes are ok? Again with Legion's R9 ?
Just tested a recent 40 respec build, Heroic gear only, R5s max. Way of the Warrior (r3), strength primary with Juggernaut and con secondary.
Defense is sitting at 68% DR boost without Locus running. Locus pushing it closer to 88%.
That character, which already didn't have a ton of dodge, only lost like 5%... and 5-man battlestation in the powerhouse was easy. Didn't even have to use Masterful Dodge.
Mind you the character *does* have Laser Knight.
So... some Dodge/Avoid, some Defense, and DR from Laser Knight ... plus heals from BCR/RR and Holdout Shot and Vindicator/Rush of Battle. And Sword Cyclone.
Maybe it's better to stack multiple methods now? Just a thought. I'm trying other characters as I get to them.
...
Quarry character, R3. Heroic gear, R5s. Dodge/avoid spec'd. 5-man battlestation at the powerhouse.
30% dodge, about 56% avoid. 61% with 3 stacks of Audacity. EM but hadn't given the character a lunge.
Ebon Void / Voracious Darkness, Eye of the Storm. Kind of ranged/melee hybrid.
Worked just fine with 10 stacks of Ebon Void / Voracious Darkness. Hmm. Maybe Dodge isn't that important for him. However, those without arguably the best block in the game... may be hurting quite a bit more.
Felt significantly squishier, but if you have tools, you can work around it.
...
Dual-passive ice char (Ice Form / Invuln). Didn't need to swap to invuln.
Did get defeated once against Demon in 5-man battlestation PTS, but blazed through
about 38% dodge live, about 18% dodge test.
Dodge... didn't really play much of a factor now. Which is probably working as intended.
Thanks, now that I can get on test, I'll take a good look at everything.
It really looks like this is mostly a nerf to defense based offensive passives.
My invulnerability character is still going to survive, and will still be taking 1s from every enemy below master villain, at elite difficulty, and still stack dodge; because defense is still a worse option from gear, this doesn't change that.
I have a great deal of concern for how Quarry and Brawler role characters will play after these changes, but we'll see.
Maybe it's better to stack multiple methods now? Just a thought. I'm trying other characters as I get to them.
Stacking is precisely why changes to dodge (or defense) is seen as necessary.
My question is why is everyone stacking at the cost of power picks and then picking only a couple of hard hitting powers? Everyone is funnelled into this building mentality. Stacking defensively should be a tanking mechanic.
The reason it is overused is because there's not enough penalty to taking them. If there was some opportunity cost to taking them ie. a slight healing or more damage debuff or even a massive increase to threat generation, then it actually becomes a choice. Cost of power picks isn't a cost when people can justify just having 2 or even 1 attacks.
If I had my way, CC and CS will be innate to these advantages because you are building yourself to handle that much amount of damage taken, not to become invincible against infrequent or pitiful damage while dealing insane dps. The plus side is tanks getting more threat all around.
Worked just fine with 10 stacks of Ebon Void / Voracious Darkness. Hmm. Maybe Dodge isn't that important for him. However, those without arguably the best block in the game... may be hurting quite a bit more.
10 stacks of voracious darkness really skews the whole test if it's just testing quarry against the battle station simulator.
Well... I'm not really trying to test the passives qua passives. I'm personally more testing how the existing builds I have will work, they just happen to have the passives that were changed.
Agreed - it's NOT a good test of just Quarry itself, and I wasn't really going for that. Without blocking, he goes down WAY faster than on live. That's the half dodge talking right there. But he also has some flavor power picks - SMG burst instead of Lead Tempest (Kind of regretted that seeing folks taking out zombies during blood moon lately).
BUT... is an offensive passive character *meant* to survive on their passive alone against a 5-man battlestation? Without any other tools?
I would think not.
And most of my characters have more than two attacks.
The sword based char: Vipers Fangs, Dragon's Wrath, a Lunge (oh yeah, Fear helps), Sword Cyclone, and Holdout Shot. Hey, it is an attack. And runs in melee mode with an offensive passive. And had Dragon Kick until Gravitar was too much, then swapped that out for Evasive Maneuvers. It's HARD to be a melee non-tank against Gravitar.
It is NOT intended as a tank, but I do like to survive 5-man powerhouse runs on every character if at all possible.
Some people appear to enjoy the "almost no attacks, but lots of AD/AOs"... I haven't quite gotten there, and not all my characters even HAVE AO/AD.
Let me be clear - I don't really like the numbers going down this much. I think the latest round of reductions was unnecessary in the current build.
But the builds I already have in place seem to still be workable.
Mind lock is a confuse. a rather useless one as well, since confuses aren't too useful at the moment, at least for most people. perhaps Cyrone can find a way to make it work well :biggrin:
@jamesbonnel: What I meant to express more clearly is 10 stacks can likely pull any offensive passive through battle station hence your result of indifference with quarry in that scenario.
I'm a firm believer if one can survive against a certain amount of damage, then it makes no difference to hold aggro whether if its an intended tank or not.
Let's take a good look at how the new DEX - Crit Rating interact with each other (spoiler: it's bad)
So everyone likes numbers right? Good because here are some:
Legend:
*Uses Legion's
CR - Crit Rating
Critical Chance - CC
The Base:
DEX: 5
Crit: 2.2% (without CR)
Base + 45 CR -> 12.6% CC
Base + 95 CR -> 18.5% CC
Base + 140 CR -> 22.4% CC
Base + 174 CR -> 24.7% CC
Base + 219 CR -> 27.2% CC
Base + 276 CR -> 29.7% CC
*Base + 319 CR -> 31.2% CC
So this is what CR gets you with no DEX. Let's see what happens if you add DEX to CR:
Base II:
DEX: 177
Crit: 24.6% (without CR)
Base II + 45 CR -> 27.1% CC
Base II + 95 CR -> 29.3% CC
Base II + 140 CR -> 31% CC
Base II + 174 CR -> 32.1% CC
Base II + 219 CR -> 33.3% CC
Base II + 276 CR -> 34.7% CC
*Base II + 319 CR -> 35.5% CC
So 177 DEX gives ~4% more CC in comparison to only CR. Let's see what happens if we invest more into DEX:
Base III:
DEX: 228 (177 + 51)
Crit: 27.4% (without CR)
Base III + 45 CR -> 29.4% CC
Base III + 95 CR -> 31.2% CC
Base III + 140 CR -> 32.6% CC
Base III + 174 CR -> 33.5% CC
Base III + 219 CR -> 34.5% CC
Base III + 276 CR -> 35.7% CC
*Base III + 319 CR -> 36.5% CC
So an additional 51 DEX gives ~1% more CC. Interesting, let's push this even further to see how bad DEX is affected by CR.
Base IV:
DEX 283 (228 + 55)
Crit: 29.8 (without CR)
Base IV + 45 CR -> 31.4% CC
Base IV + 95 CR -> 32.9% CC
Base IV + 140 CR -> 34% CC
Base IV + 174 CR -> 34.8% CC
Base IV + 219 CR -> 35.7% CC
Base IV + 276 CR -> 36.7% CC
*Base IV + 319 CR -> 37.4% CC
So with another 55 DEX investment compared to Base III we get about ~1% more CC.
Conclusion:
If you look at the CC from only DEX, only CR and then DEX + CR it is painfully obvious that there seems to be some sort of convergence towards 30% CC after which you hit diminishing returns pretty badly.
Secondly, it can be seen that 276 CR = 283 DEX -> 29.8% CC given BUT if you combine them you get 36.7% so basically you get ONLY 7% more Critical Chance.
This basically means that DEX is practically useless, using only DEX or only CR gives far more benefit. In fact, it's far more convenient to stack CR and not use DEX at all.
Cryptic, your DEX - CR scaling is HORRIBLE, you are making SS DEX pointless!!!
Comments
Eh lol, you might be right. I was not trying to say what "baseline" is but pointed out that Legion's + R9 might not be that representative of "baseline/average" toon power lvl. That's pretty much it.
I don't think Heroic is a baseline nor is Merc. I honestly don't think a lot of people grind that stuff out.
But I've said my bit and expect it to count for nothing against the secret Uber-lEet player council and the Cryptic nerf brigade. I just want this over with so we can get some ****ing content instead of this.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
Blue LV40 Primaries with 2-slot each + Purple LV40 Secondaries or 11KQ Secondaries.
These are easy enough to get and with the recent bloodmoon crypt missions it's even easier. I myself put tens of them on AH and they are getting sold quickly. It's reasonable to think that a group of people use these kind of items before switching to Heroic/Merc/Legion.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
...the ultimate Contrast Moe (or not).
Makes me think, put LR at 25/45/65%, hard cap dodge to 70% with Passive + Gear, then force all those LR's to use something other than Lucky Gems! And have to find other ways to get more dodge...other powers, specs, what have you.
I say this because, people are already saying you can hit 70% Dodge even in the new patch. There, new mods will become popular for LR users!
FYI my char only uses blue quality gear, and has 0 dodge/avo enhancing mods. Though I use Twist of Fate spec for the extra 9% crit/dodge, Thundering Kicks and Evasive Maneuvers.
Long story short, in fact this patch felt quite good for my LR char
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Click up there if you want to find more about the costumes behind my heroines.
And offensive ones will probably go to WotW and Night Warrior. If you're freaking out right now then you have not actually tried out the changes.
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
The other possible baseline would be the Nemesis/Vanguard/11K Questionite scaling gear. They're easily acquirable and because they scale with level, some people might keep them on even when they reach 40. The downside to that is the stat boosts are very low (I believe they are outmatched by equivalent level green gear) and the utility pieces are missing cooldown and cost reductions.
That said, I'd like to think the balance fixes are a prelude to new content. It's hard to make new content when there is such a large gap in power level between characters. Narrowing that gap would be the first step. For an example, check out how many and what kind of characters run Gravitar. I'm hoping the new Rampage Alert will be more inclusive.
Hopefully I get a chance to do some more testing today. [ a big robot fist in the air to people who claim I don't test*]
I spend a lot of time in game doing RP [you know that think like PvP that doesn't come up often?] So I don't test as much as I might like.
*I do find hysterical the assumption that if I do test I'll automatically agree with the Nerf crowd.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
It doesn't help us test typical builds and gear if the mods we have in the 'Mods for testing' are all purple... >.>
just saying
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
Run the Bloodmoon Crypts with a Lv40. Each run net you a UNTIL Equipment box, plus another you net from the undead hero before the crypt. Sometimes the crypt mission bugs out allowing you to take it again after you done the 1st time, this make 3 UNTIL Equipment box from one undead hero.
Rinse and Repeat.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
...the ultimate Contrast Moe (or not).
Reason I ask is I don't recollect having great dodge gear on anything under lev 35. Is EM now mandatory for my LR builds?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
In all honesty I don't believe so... but then the way you play your characters might vary from mine
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Click up there if you want to find more about the costumes behind my heroines.
I think I will survive the nerf.
..and I don't use EM
XS
I hadn't intended to test the Crypts since as far as I know, there's no change.
So what do we do when BM is no longer on test?
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
Or that Millennial Flight.
And let's not forget that a lot more people will have 16K refinement cap. That's probably gonna do a minor short-term shake on the economy.
Trigger;
Live-
Dodge- 61.8
Avoidance - 77.5
Test w/no gear-
Dodge- 51.6
Avoidance - 66.8
Test w/same sad gear-
Dodge- 59.6
Avoidance - 75
Test w/Justice Gear-
Dodge- 58.1
Avoidance - 86.8
As you can see, I went through some trouble to boost my avoidance; On the theory that this was the good part or Dodge/Avoidance.
Now I'll also say I tested this soloing Crusher [and dying], Radion and Amazing Grace [and succeeding on those]. Make of that what you will.
I kept an eye on my dodging. Unless I used Masterful Dodge, at no point did my dodge percentage rise above 75% even with EM [rank 1, remember i use it for the aggro wipe]
Now is it terrible?
No.
Did it make a big difference? Well see the above for yourself.
Do I think it's in line with existing defensive passives? No.
Look, I take a defensive passive to tank or pseudo tank if the character's theme calls for it. I don't have a lot of those toons.
My really tank-ish toons get Defiance or Invulnerable. That's on live. LR is worse than those too, you need to many additional powers to make it keep up with those too.
Can it exceed them? Sure, if you're Over-geared and all that.
Does dodge as a whole need a nerf? Probably not.
Do certain powers that add dodge and in combination of LR or other Defensive passive with other powers need a nerf? Maybe?
Does this make nerfing LR necessary? No.
Does this make nerfing Quarry or Night Warrior necessary? Nope.
This whole thing is like nerfing anything that grants Crits to fix Imbue [Old version]
It seems like Evasive Manuvers is the big thing everyone cites as 'this is how you break Dodge'.
Why not limit it to one stack?
Why not let it grant a single stack Defiance like Breakaway Shot?
Will this post be as big a waste of time as my last one? Yep.
Does it prove that I can do math before I got to test? Yep
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
Kenpo....
If you're going to refer to pre-alert, you have to remember all the factors.
Dodge had a completely different mechanic, modified by the attacks activation time. 25% from a Tak was enough to have 100% dodge from a snipe shot for example. The big charge up hits were nearly guaranteed to go through dodge mitigation, where as all the quick hits went right through. To take LR was for the sake of getting heavy resistance at slow heavy hits at the cost of failing to mitigate most of the fast ones getting a reduced chance for fast attacks. BCR RR had no limit/internal cd, so the more incoming hits dodged meant more heals, so MD could heal someone very quickly with bcr. IDF was also a common power, providing extra mitigation to help with the minor attacks.
Also, pre-alert was when I first saw the dodge/avoid invul tanks. Sure they didn't have the higher dodge/avoid we have now, but the enemies we weaker as a whole. You only saw tough rated mobs in lairs like nemcon or Therakial's temple, not fighting them regularly in alerts like we do now. Tough mobs hit harder, have more hp and even have a perception boost to prevent people from sneaking around in phasing powers like teleport or tunneling.
Invuls with dodge/avoid gear (usually tak) was effectively superior to LR. It may not have had LRs dodge/avoid, but it mitigated damage regardless of a dodge. Throw in IDF and you start to see 1s regularly. Add bcr, there ya go. Heck, EM wasn't even regularly seen back then because the dodge boost wasn't worth giving up another power generally.
Now lets go to live. It's flat chance and offers bleed protection. The problem with chance is you may dodge all the minor hits that wouldn't do much regardless, but any big blow that makes it past the rng check effectively gets through unmitigated. I say unmitigated because the base defense stat provides horrendous mitigation, which is why dodge/avoid becaume the standard defensive plate in the first place.
However, LR has its saving grace in that there are powers that boost chance by flat percentages, allowing one to reach 90%+ much more consistently. In these situations, No passive can compete as far as mitigation goes, because avoidance provides so much more mitigation compared to defense. The biggest hole with LR are the attacks that get through, but if every attack has to go through dodge, no other def passive can match it when MD is down.
However, even those dodge chance buffing powers have a cost. Even with the heavy cd redux we get now, it's no longer possible to maintain MD almost indefinitely. Wesley was running a dodge/invul built around using radiance conviction, i think bcr, enrage relying on int spec to reduce cooldowns further. if I remember correctly, we'd have less than a 4s window before he had MD up, and mind you that's md on top of his invul while wearing dodge/avoid. It usually took at least 5 of us pvp specc'd to stand a chance of destroying him, but thankfully all that defense meant he wasn't a major threat offensively, just don't stand in his UR.
My FF tank went with invul as I could utilize pro mastery, MD, resurge, bcr, and dodge/avoid, allowing me to achieve similar numbers to a high dodge/avoid without having to constantly rely on EM and thundering kicks or lead tempest, etc to keep buffing chance. When you're fighting someone like Warlord, hitting EM is just asking for a fire patch. When you're fighting cybermind, you don't have the freedom to EM during the rain if you fail to interrupt it.
To give you an idea of the strength, I could basically take on as many npcs in warlord as I could hold threat. Munitions based, most of their damage was mitigated by the invul, bcr and vind spec tree healing and high enough con to last between cds and offer a buffer anytime I need to resurge. However, on the flip side, a singly yellow bubble of doom will take her out if dodge doesn't proc while blocking. Normally I can avoid the bubble, but if someone is tossing ice grenades or jumps on top of me last second with the targeting bubble, I'm not breaking the hold fast enough to get out and i'm just hoping I can get md and block off before the hit procs.
As far as regular alerts goes, she doesn't hit hard enough to worry about psimon or baron's reflective damage. Val's beam of doom is only relatively threatening, and the only attack I'd be concerned with is Kevin Poe since his output lately exceeds what I remember it being. And running DE allows her to heal while applying crippling challenge off SNP. She still needs tweaks but for me to change what I'd want to she'd lose her power tinting and I'm not exactly excited to sub.
Again, I'm not "discounting" your experience Kenpo - I'm merely reflecting upon my own.
Sigh keep wishing for roll back to pre FTP.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
This is on my Quarry R3 toon (same gear in both cases):
Live:
Crit chance : 39.3
Dodge chance: 57.2
PTS:
Crit chance: 33
Dodge chance: 30.3
This toon was not breaking anything, it was survivable but nothing unkillable. My dodge is almost 1/2 of Live and my crit chance is 6.3% lower (that's a lot IMO).
I don't want to hear anyone tell me this is not a HUGE nerf because it is. Oh an this toon does not use Legion's, it uses Mercenary/Heroic and R5-6's. As such, this is the nerf an average (not elite) build should expect based on the current PTS.
Yeah....I'm going to really survive a lot with 30% dodge chance :rolleyes: This is the kind of BS I was talking about. People are blinded by Legion's and R9 MOD power levels and use that to say everything is OK. Well it's not.
If we're seriously talking about nerfing EM THIS much in order to lighten the nerf on Dodge Passives, then can we at least ADD SOMETHING to EM to still make it worth taking?
Your suggesting something like this...
EM R1= 5%
EM R2= 7%
EM R3= 10%
I'd like to suggest adding some Avoidance to the power to make up for the lower Dodge Chance. In one of two ways...
1st Way) %Avoidance matches the %Dodge Chance at each rank. R3=10% Avoidance.
2nd Way) Add a 1pt or 2pt Advantage that adds 10% Avoidance no mater the rank of the power.
I am also still very much dedicated to the idea that the SLIGHT OF MIND Advantage should be removed from EM and added to EGO PLACATE. As a Placate Advantage makes more sense on a Placate Power.
Speaking of Placates, while I happen to be thinking about it. How about boosting Smoke Bombs Max Targets amount to 10, this power seems kind of silly with only a 5 Target Max.
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=3692581
Also, the flamethrower mk ii it comes with (along with micromunitions) is probably the single weakest weapon I've seen; 65' range, 30' cone, 5 max targets...and doing all of about 250 damage a tick, or less than the toggle guns mounted on vehicles. About its only saving grace is that it's relatively cheap energywise, unlike the worthless full battery barrage which not only does equally lousy damage but drains the entire energy bar.
What happened to crit chance?!! It looks like they implemented a softcap ~30%. The more Crit Strike I add the less crit chance Dex gives (substantially less).
According to the way things are on PTS getting past 30-34% is going to be really difficult through gear alone. Spec wise, EGO SS gives approximately 10% more crit chance than DEX SS.
This is a huge nerf. I used to be able to get around 45-50% crit chance through gear. Now it's around ~30% (DEX SS) or ~40 (EGO SS). This is without Vindicator. Are people blind? How can they not notice how much we got nerfed.
Really?! Wow! That's terrific! I only have *counts* ...5 more days until I reach 1000 on my own! What great timing!
:mad:
This is a big deal! The current DEX - Crit Strike interaction is utter rubbish. I understand they made Crit Strike give less but that's not what I'm seeing. What I see is a softcape at 30%. Currently if you stack both Crit Strike and DEX you get horrible returns on the investment.
They are both absurd, they nerf us bad on dmg and horribly on defense. How is this leading to more diversified builds? What does Cryptic know of making a build, their toons are junk and can't do zilch without their Dev commands. Not one dev has ever EVER made a toon better than a vet's. Heck, their building skills are marginally better than that of a new player. They have no clue what they are saying. That announcement they posted regarding cirt/dodge is just PR BS they shove us down our throats.
Where do people get their numbers that they say those changes are ok? Again with Legion's R9 ?
Just tested a recent 40 respec build, Heroic gear only, R5s max. Way of the Warrior (r3), strength primary with Juggernaut and con secondary.
Defense is sitting at 68% DR boost without Locus running. Locus pushing it closer to 88%.
That character, which already didn't have a ton of dodge, only lost like 5%... and 5-man battlestation in the powerhouse was easy. Didn't even have to use Masterful Dodge.
Mind you the character *does* have Laser Knight.
So... some Dodge/Avoid, some Defense, and DR from Laser Knight ... plus heals from BCR/RR and Holdout Shot and Vindicator/Rush of Battle. And Sword Cyclone.
Maybe it's better to stack multiple methods now? Just a thought. I'm trying other characters as I get to them.
...
Quarry character, R3. Heroic gear, R5s. Dodge/avoid spec'd. 5-man battlestation at the powerhouse.
30% dodge, about 56% avoid. 61% with 3 stacks of Audacity. EM but hadn't given the character a lunge.
Ebon Void / Voracious Darkness, Eye of the Storm. Kind of ranged/melee hybrid.
Worked just fine with 10 stacks of Ebon Void / Voracious Darkness. Hmm. Maybe Dodge isn't that important for him. However, those without arguably the best block in the game... may be hurting quite a bit more.
Felt significantly squishier, but if you have tools, you can work around it.
...
Dual-passive ice char (Ice Form / Invuln). Didn't need to swap to invuln.
Did get defeated once against Demon in 5-man battlestation PTS, but blazed through
about 38% dodge live, about 18% dodge test.
Dodge... didn't really play much of a factor now. Which is probably working as intended.
Still, Flashfire + Avalanche + Rimefire Burst = toasted mobs.
Thanks, now that I can get on test, I'll take a good look at everything.
It really looks like this is mostly a nerf to defense based offensive passives.
My invulnerability character is still going to survive, and will still be taking 1s from every enemy below master villain, at elite difficulty, and still stack dodge; because defense is still a worse option from gear, this doesn't change that.
I have a great deal of concern for how Quarry and Brawler role characters will play after these changes, but we'll see.
My question is why is everyone stacking at the cost of power picks and then picking only a couple of hard hitting powers? Everyone is funnelled into this building mentality. Stacking defensively should be a tanking mechanic.
The reason it is overused is because there's not enough penalty to taking them. If there was some opportunity cost to taking them ie. a slight healing or more damage debuff or even a massive increase to threat generation, then it actually becomes a choice. Cost of power picks isn't a cost when people can justify just having 2 or even 1 attacks.
If I had my way, CC and CS will be innate to these advantages because you are building yourself to handle that much amount of damage taken, not to become invincible against infrequent or pitiful damage while dealing insane dps. The plus side is tanks getting more threat all around.
10 stacks of voracious darkness really skews the whole test if it's just testing quarry against the battle station simulator.
Agreed - it's NOT a good test of just Quarry itself, and I wasn't really going for that. Without blocking, he goes down WAY faster than on live. That's the half dodge talking right there. But he also has some flavor power picks - SMG burst instead of Lead Tempest (Kind of regretted that seeing folks taking out zombies during blood moon lately).
BUT... is an offensive passive character *meant* to survive on their passive alone against a 5-man battlestation? Without any other tools?
I would think not.
And most of my characters have more than two attacks.
The sword based char: Vipers Fangs, Dragon's Wrath, a Lunge (oh yeah, Fear helps), Sword Cyclone, and Holdout Shot. Hey, it is an attack. And runs in melee mode with an offensive passive. And had Dragon Kick until Gravitar was too much, then swapped that out for Evasive Maneuvers. It's HARD to be a melee non-tank against Gravitar.
It is NOT intended as a tank, but I do like to survive 5-man powerhouse runs on every character if at all possible.
Some people appear to enjoy the "almost no attacks, but lots of AD/AOs"... I haven't quite gotten there, and not all my characters even HAVE AO/AD.
Let me be clear - I don't really like the numbers going down this much. I think the latest round of reductions was unnecessary in the current build.
But the builds I already have in place seem to still be workable.
Derp, I meant Ego Placate. Sorry.:redface:
I'm a firm believer if one can survive against a certain amount of damage, then it makes no difference to hold aggro whether if its an intended tank or not.
So everyone likes numbers right? Good because here are some:
Legend:
*Uses Legion's
CR - Crit Rating
Critical Chance - CC
The Base:
DEX: 5
Crit: 2.2% (without CR)
Base + 45 CR -> 12.6% CC
Base + 95 CR -> 18.5% CC
Base + 140 CR -> 22.4% CC
Base + 174 CR -> 24.7% CC
Base + 219 CR -> 27.2% CC
Base + 276 CR -> 29.7% CC
*Base + 319 CR -> 31.2% CC
So this is what CR gets you with no DEX. Let's see what happens if you add DEX to CR:
Base II:
DEX: 177
Crit: 24.6% (without CR)
Base II + 45 CR -> 27.1% CC
Base II + 95 CR -> 29.3% CC
Base II + 140 CR -> 31% CC
Base II + 174 CR -> 32.1% CC
Base II + 219 CR -> 33.3% CC
Base II + 276 CR -> 34.7% CC
*Base II + 319 CR -> 35.5% CC
So 177 DEX gives ~4% more CC in comparison to only CR. Let's see what happens if we invest more into DEX:
Base III:
DEX: 228 (177 + 51)
Crit: 27.4% (without CR)
Base III + 45 CR -> 29.4% CC
Base III + 95 CR -> 31.2% CC
Base III + 140 CR -> 32.6% CC
Base III + 174 CR -> 33.5% CC
Base III + 219 CR -> 34.5% CC
Base III + 276 CR -> 35.7% CC
*Base III + 319 CR -> 36.5% CC
So an additional 51 DEX gives ~1% more CC. Interesting, let's push this even further to see how bad DEX is affected by CR.
Base IV:
DEX 283 (228 + 55)
Crit: 29.8 (without CR)
Base IV + 45 CR -> 31.4% CC
Base IV + 95 CR -> 32.9% CC
Base IV + 140 CR -> 34% CC
Base IV + 174 CR -> 34.8% CC
Base IV + 219 CR -> 35.7% CC
Base IV + 276 CR -> 36.7% CC
*Base IV + 319 CR -> 37.4% CC
So with another 55 DEX investment compared to Base III we get about ~1% more CC.
Conclusion:
If you look at the CC from only DEX, only CR and then DEX + CR it is painfully obvious that there seems to be some sort of convergence towards 30% CC after which you hit diminishing returns pretty badly.
Secondly, it can be seen that 276 CR = 283 DEX -> 29.8% CC given BUT if you combine them you get 36.7% so basically you get ONLY 7% more Critical Chance.
This basically means that DEX is practically useless, using only DEX or only CR gives far more benefit. In fact, it's far more convenient to stack CR and not use DEX at all.
Cryptic, your DEX - CR scaling is HORRIBLE, you are making SS DEX pointless!!!
"Base" critical chance is 0 BUT because you MUST have 10 dex it turns into 0.13%
47 Critical Strike grants 3.9%
95 Critical Strike grants 11.2%
103 Critical Strike grants 12.7%
198 Critical Strike grants 27%
245 Critical Strike grants 32.2%
302 Critical Strike grants 36.8%
349 Critical Strike grants 39.6%
PTS Critical Strike1:
"Base" critical chance is 0 BUT because you MUST have 10 dex it turns into 3.8%
47 Critical Strike grants 13.4%
95 Critical Strike grants 19%
103 Critical Strike grants 19.9%
198 Critical Strike grants 26.4%
245 Critical Strike grants 28.7%
302 Critical Strike grants 30.8%
349 Critical Strike grants 32.3%
Live|Dexterity|PTS1*
0.03% 5 2.2%
4.6% 63 14.1%
13.8% 120 20.5%
24.8% 191 25.5%
31.6% 249 28.4%
38% 329 31.4%
43.8% 461 34.9%
Dexterity+Critical Strike Scaling
Live|Dexterity+CritStrike|PTS1*
34% 72+204 29.5%
38.5% 134+204 31.7%
43.5% 249+204 34.7%
46.2% 461+103 36.8%
47.7% 461+204 38.2%
I don't know how many times I've posted this stuff..
And agreed. That's enough defensive capability for almost anything to work well.