Don't say that...Invisible Woman is powerful...when she isn't dying from a nose bleed (I HATE this portrayal of her)
My point was more that all of those characters are perfectly viable when soloing, along with being powerful assets to their teams. Invisible Woman's the most powerful of the Fantastic Four, Batman's has multiple books dedicated to his soloing adventures, etc.
I picked those because of the question Nightrod asked about "what hero needs a healer following them around?". None of them do, but all of them do better with added support. Support in CO is more than just spamming green numbers.
Cyclops or Captain America's "planning" and "leadership", and the boosts that that gives to their teams could be somewhat emulated by the Leadership (I think?) power pools in CoX, and the closest thing CO has to those is the Aura powers. It's a shame they are stuck with the garish Sorcery graphics, but that's about all we have right now.
And Nightrod:
I'd say calling everyone who plays Support "selfish" is you being pretty against their style of play. That's what originally prompted my response. That, and the whole "Support role shouldn't even exist" thing. (All this was in your responses to RTMA, I'm too lazy to quote the exact parts at the moment)
Try playing a support character that focuses strictly on healing and see how much of a pain in the **** it is. The only healing ability in the game that can keep up with incoming damage is Iniquity, and that requires a lot of self-healing on the user's part to stay alive. And there are only two support-role passives in the game that only provide healing (Seraphim and Medical Nanites). The rest are buffs to let people either survive more damage or DPS harder (or...AoAC, but let's forget that one exists).
You could build successful teams without a "healer" before On Alert, and you can do it now. You'll still be able to do it after the dodge/crit changes, too.
Your vision of "self-sufficient" seems to be "I can make my Offensive Passive as survivable as a Defensive Passive, but with more offense", which is what Quarry was before these changes. And that level of "balance" is bad for anyone that isn't using Quarry.
You misinterpreted my post. I said i DON'T like the phrase LTP and went on to give some tips on how to play instead of just saying "figure it out ". I guess i could have been more clear.
The way it was worded basically implied you saying if you switch to Defense then you should LTP. You might not have intended it but that's what it came off as.
like you did with my post? That makes us even then.
What exactly did I take out of context? I replied to what you said. There was no context to it. You quoted me and I replied.
As for soloing Destroids, Are you talking about the Destroids in resistance? I haven't done I haven't tried to solo or even run Resistance in ages, but ill give it a shot later today. But regardless of it they are soloable on offensive passives, you can hack, and bypass them and solo resistance regardless. furthermore, im not convinced Mobs of that rank are intended to be solo friendly You can solo them with a Defensive passive. Point was that the passive you have should not lock you out of content. Nobody argues that Offensive Passives should be tank BUT there has to be necessary and sufficient survivability to them. It does not matter how much damage you do if you can't take a boss down. Alternatively with Defensive passives it's simply a battle of attrition in some cases, but you will win in the end.
.
There should be proper balance between Offense and Defense but making Offense be unable to do the same content as Defense is not it. Again, Defense should provide a guarantee of survival (at least a significantly high one) while Offense would provide more damage -> take them down before they do. That works only if you have some means of preventing the enemy from obliterating you immediately.
Have people tried an Offensive toon on PTS? My toon went from 57% dodge to 30%. THAT's 30% on RNG -> how does that help me not get one shotted? Even before I would face-plant if I did not retreat or forget a heal or got overconfident. There is little margine for error with an Offensive passive.
Technically you both have a point. Someone who wants to run support should be allowed to do so. Someone who doesn't want to shouldn't be forced.
I don't know if I've ever teamed with nightrod, but I've ended up on pug teams with rtma. And as someone who's run support I can recognize its limited role in the game's current state. As someone who hates the role, I can also recognize Nightrod's dislike for it.
I'm Touched that I would be remembered, who of us have you bumped into? out of curiosity.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
nightr0d i already explained how you misinterpreted my text in the previous post. Read it again.
Also, before i go out and try to solo this destroid (which im not sure will prove any thing because i dont think they are intended to be soloed but im interested by the challenge) I think it would be best if you gave me the build that you used and failed with. That way there wont be any issue with the results.
EDIT:
Better yet, we can meet up on PTS if you want.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
*Sighed and taps forehead* Well excuse me for not being a literary/statistical genius, an do I have to mention it? Quarry, Munitions... Generally, mow down Squads with 2GM, I'm not going to argue with you cause we're all set in our ways, And I've tried contributing on other websites despite my mental disorder and I find some humans to be an increasingly difficult to deal with,
Mostly notable traits like selfishness, arrogant, egotism, exploitation, manipulation, neglect, not to mention despairity, If it's not one thing to abuse it's another, take Gears of War, The Gnasher, Imbalanced but people proclaim it to be as is but it isn't true, I'm going to leave it at that, I've had enough tonight, everything has 2 sides to it, if you want to play whatever you like without the 'Roles' I already mentioned to see F**Ked up it is if everything is Hybrid Passives, forget about it, I don't know why I bother, do as you please, you're going to anyway, just don't berate me.
I'm Touched that I would be remembered, who of us have you bumped into? out of curiosity.
What is this supposed to prove "Sighed and taps forehead"? That because you sighed and made some gesture you are right and others don't get it? If you can't handle numbers then don't argue things with people that can bring numbers to support they claims.
You got some nerve. You accuse me of being selfish because my opinion does not include bending over to make room for roles and trinity?
I don't even know what to say to that list of yours. Is that targeted at me? I can't even make out what you want to say there. The only thing I saw is you making yourself out to be better than any of those people who are "selfishness, arrogant, egotism, exploitation, manipulation, neglect, not to mention despairity". You should look at yourself a bit more before you label others.
No, Not you, Humanity as a Species and what it does to itself, Human Nature from an Observing standpoint, I know it can do better despite circumstances, from my experience maybe it's just a form of Inferiority Complex from interacting on a gaming platform, but whatever, Delete the Posts, I don't care, have your win and move on, before I get scrutinized any further.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
Technically you both have a point. Someone who wants to run support should be allowed to do so. Someone who doesn't want to shouldn't be forced.
I don't know if I've ever teamed with nightrod, but I've ended up on pug teams with rtma. And as someone who's run support I can recognize its limited role in the game's current state. As someone who hates the role, I can also recognize Nightrod's dislike for it.
I have nothing AGAINST support (me not caring much dose not me I hate it and I want it to die in a fire). I'm all for buffing support that's find by me. I don't mind it, but I do mind the idea of NEEDING someone to buff me. Support provides "support" so in increases you damage, survivability, speed of completing a lair/alert etc. BUT that does not mean that without SUPPORT those thing should not be possible.
To me support is something that helps improve things like a damage multiplier. It makes thing better but it does not imply that without it people should be horrible. That's the trinity system talking where you need people in well defined roles. CO does not need that and can still make PERFECT use of people in Support.
nightr0d i already explained how you misinterpreted my text in the previous post. Read it again.
Also, before i go out and try to solo this destroid (which im not sure will prove any thing because i dont think they are intended to be soloed but im interested by the challenge) I think it would be best if you gave me the build that you used and failed with. That way there wont be any issue with the results.
EDIT:
Better yet, we can meet up on PTS if you want.
I'd be up for it but currently I don't have the time to do so.
The build I'm using is one that I took directly from Live to see exactly how much of a difference it makes.
My argument is not that only my build was affected terribly but every Offensive Passive toon. I can't solo a Destroid on elite (highest I can with my gear was Very Hard) and even then I died a lot. That's why I know how much the dodge changes will affect me.
OH BTW I also talked about the DEX - Crit Rating iteration being completely rubbish now. I have posted numbers to prove it a couple of pages ago. There no interpretation on those, it's pure math.
Take Heroic or any other higher tire than normal drop gear (not Legion's) and gear them up. For defense use an avoidance core and the rest put it in dodge. This combined with an offensive passive will give you 30% dodge chance. On live I have 57%, which to me is extremely obvious how much I'm nerfed. If it was 5% then my argument would be difficult to prove but I lost 27% dodge, that's almost 1/2.
The build does not matter, just try the build you would want to play and tell me how it feels to you.
People complain about Offensive toons being unkillable. I have no clue what they are talking about. My toon was not unkillable at all. It was fun to play and when I fought a boss I knew that if I push too hard I'll faceplant. Naturally if people go Legion's R9 with fully geared Vigilante secs and a full rooster of devices that's different. But that's an extreme case not even close to the average.
It's funny thought that such an extreme build is taken to be the norm and used in arguments when people ignorantly just say "you should not be able to tank or do X with an Offensive Passive". Truth is, that you can't do those things unless you invested quite a bit on LIVE.
People forgot the Offensive Passive outcry that was before On Alert and just say it was ok before it. The truth is that it was NOT.
My argument is not that only my build was affected terribly but every Offensive Passive toon. I can't solo a Destroid on elite (highest I can with my gear was Very Hard) and even then I died a lot.
Then it sounds like there is nothing to test then.
Soloing Destroids on very hard with an offensive passive is pretty impressive any way. If you recall, Destroids (especially on elite) are notorious for being difficult and have been so since Resistance was first released.
If your soloing Destroids on very hard, your already pretty ahead of the curve. I don't see how any not being able to solo (Legendary?) rank mobs on elite is a baseline for power balance. Elite is optional and only for stronger builds that want a challenge and I don't think legendarys are intended to be soloed. This is why Desstroids can be hacked and bypassed in resistance.
Regardless of how you may feel, not being able to solo Destroids on Elite is not out side of what the devs intended and will not compel them to make any changes.
EDIT:
Offensive toons are still more durable than they were before On Alert.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Even with numbers, the idea of an offensive passive's survivability as opposed to defensive passive can be very arbitrary.
What would constitute an offensive passive being survivable? Not dying? And a defensive passive more so? Dying less than not dying? Or tanking and not dying? So does that mean if a defensive passive is not tanking, an offensive passive should die?
There's no single reconciliation to be right or wrong about. But there's one truth, dying can be managed and it is a game mechanic. If certain content is demanding, yet one is unable or unwilling to incorporate death management, then a support is a viable alternative if it has to come down to it.
The only ideal is an agreeable compromise between the two passive types. Reaching that consensus however will undoubtedly not be inclusive of everyone's opinion of how it should be.
Then it sounds like there is nothing to test then.
Soloing Destroids on very hard with an offensive passive is pretty impressive any way. If you recall, Destroids (especially on elite) are notorious for being difficult and have been so since Resistance was first released.
If your soloing Destroids on very hard, your already pretty ahead of the curve. I don't see how any not being able to solo (Legendary?) rank mobs on elite is a baseline for power balance. Elite is optional and only for stronger builds that want a challenge and I don't think legendarys are intended to be soloed. This is why Desstroids can be hacked and bypassed in resistance.
Regardless of how you may feel, not being able to solo Destroids on Elite is not out side of what the devs intended and will not compel them to make any changes.
EDIT:
Offensive toons are still more durable than they were before On Alert.
Dude, I said Very Hard. Why is you entire post about Elite?
Point was that what was difficult before is impossible now. How can't that be tested?:eek:
The Destroid test was an example. Go into Destroyer's lab on Elite if you think Legendaries are tough you will see that a bunch of TOUGH enemies will eat you for breakfast.
Does offensive passive have to equal faceplant? If so why do Defensive Passives have access to Forms? They are not supposed to do that much dmg eh, no? same argument against Offensive passives (should not be able to sruvive X) turned around (Defensive Passives should not do that much dmg since they are "Defensive").
Dude, I said Very Hard. Why is you entire post about Elite?
Point was that what was difficult before is impossible now. How can't that be tested?:eek:
I understand.
What I'm saying is that the devs never intended you to do that in the first place. If were talking about baseline power balance, were talking about normal difficulty and mob ranks around master villain, supper villain and enforcer. Any thing soloing above normal difficulty and above super villain (like Legendary, and Cosmic) is ahead of the power curve.
The devs are making adjustments because people are doing things like soloing legandaries on elite or very hard (lets just say high difficulty). When you say you can no longer do that then that just tells the devs that they are accomplishing what they set out to do.
EDIT:
I said there is nothing to test because there is no need to test what you are saying. If any thing, posting that you can still solo legandarys on elite (or even very hard) with offensive passives is more likely to bring more nerfs than to stop nerfs. Your intention seems to be the latter.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
I understand.
What I'm saying is that the devs never intended you to do that in the first place. If were talking about baseline power balance, were talking about normal difficulty and mob ranks around master villain, supper villain and enforcer. Any thing soloing above normal difficulty and above super villain (like Legendary, and Cosmic) is ahead of the power curve.
The devs making adjustments because people are doing things like soloing legandaries on elite. When you say you can no longer do that then that just tells the devs that they are accomplishing what they set out to do.
O_o You know there is a perk for killing Destroids. Who ever said that they are not meant to be soloed. Yopu can solo them with a Defensive passive, does that men defense needs a nerf. It's not like it's a walk in the park to fight a Destroid. Let's not be pedantic about me using Destroids as an example. Go into the world and see how your survival looks like in Vikorin's lair. No need to solo it, just go in and see if you can survive a second considering the damage output of the mobs there. Then take a Defensive Passive and see how that feels like.
Again, if Offensive Passives should not be able to get Defense why should Defensive Passilves have access to Offense.
Currently any Defensive toon can have as much Crit Chance as an Offensive toon. HOW COME PEOPLE DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT? The bias here is obnoxious.
In all seriousness the hypocrisy here is so bad it stinks. Defense should be able to stack dmg (offense, crit) but Offense should not be able to stack mitigation (dodge, defense).
Those changes don't improve quality of life they just provide Cryptic with the means to sell us more absurdly OP gear. They are not fooling me with this nonsense.
Simply take an Offensive toon and a Defensive toon ad see what you can do with one that you can't with the other. You will understand my point then.
Again, if Offensive Passives should not be able to get Defense why should Defensive Passilves have access to Offense. Offensive passives do have defense:innate dodge and resist and defense from gear and specs and powers and ADs. Just to a lesser degree
Currently any Defensive toon can have as much Crit Chance as an Offensive toon. HOW COME PEOPLE DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT? The bias here is obnoxious. They can have as much crit chance but not as much damage buffs. The crits that they DO get will be smaller, its all relative.
In all seriousness the hypocrisy here is so bad it stinks. Defense should be able to stack dmg (offense, crit) but Offense should not be able to stack mitigation (dodge, defense).
Simply take an Offensive toon and a Defensive toon ad see what you can do with one that you can't with the other. You will understand my point then.whats the point of making the distinction between defense and offense if they do the same thing? Should support toons do enjoy the same level of offense or defense as offensive passives or defensive passives then?
Look, i disagree with you but thats not my main point.
Its not me you have to convince. Keep in mind the intention behind the devs actions. If your goal is to express your displesure for the changes then fine, you have a right to your opinion. But we all get it now and you have said your piece so you can move on.
If your intention is to say that The outcome of the changes are not inline with the devs intentions, then you are not only failing but your are verifying that things are working as intended (for example no-longer being able to solo legendarys on elite with offensive passives).
If your here to get the devs to roll back the changes you need to completely rephrase your arguments.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
I believe the change fits with dev intentions, but I believe that the dev intentions are misguided.
The idea is predicated on the thought that survival is purely binary, while damage is gradient.
There are different levels of damage, and therefore different kill speeds.
There are different levels of survivability, and therefore different requirements for reacting to incoming damage if you want to not faceplant.
However, despite different rates of damage, all damage is sufficient to kill, excepting Ao'Qephoth and Teleiosaurus (The only two bits of content with strong enemy heals that I know of) the difference being the rate of damage.
Survival is not binary. Just because you survive, doesn't mean that you had an easy time of it. Survival doesn't automatically equate to equivilance with a defensive passive, just the same as ability to kill doesn't equate to an equivilance with an offensive passive.
Ok, so, there's been a lot of posting here, and frequently. I really hope that people actually look at this post, since I feel my last posts have been effectively overlooked. (Then again, I didn't really post anything super amazing, so meh).
A lot have points have been made, and I'd like to highlight a few, first I'll mentioned nightr0d's posts, since he's been the most frequent poster as of late. Nightr0d has pointed out, in several posts that reducing the survivability of offensive passives is biased due to the fact the defensive passives (and supportives) can accumulate large amounts of offense and crit, as much as offensive passives, and in the case of AoPM, more. This is true, whether its unbelievable or not. In fact, I've had friends tell me they've gotten better damage numbers from using Defiance than from using Way of the Warrior. I attribute that to the fact it gets free energy, often, but that's not the discussion I'm focused on. And while yes, Offensive passives can gain a lot of defensive benefits too, but there's more to it than that. Due to the way defensive passives work, stacking defenses is incredibly powerful, something you can't do with offensive passives, and while doing so (again, thanks to how things work in our current iteration of CO. I'm looking at you dodge/crit gear) you can still get that large offensive growth. This is why Invul, Defiance, and AoPM are so popular, even amongst PvPers (OH MY GOD HE SAID PVP! HE'S A HERETIC AND HIS ARGUMENT IS NOW INVALID!) Yeah people thats right, PvPers make builds certain ways because they know what passive is generally better. IE AoPM.
I was planning on making this a bigger post, but I have to run to work, so I'll EDIT this post later!
Look, i disagree with you but thats not my main point.
Its not me you have to convince. Keep in mind the intention behind the devs actions. If your goal is to express your displesure for the changes then fine, you have a right to your opinion. But we all get it now and you have said your piece so you can move on.
If your intention is to say that The outcome of the changes are not inline with the devs intentions, then you are not only failing but your are verifying that things are working as intended (for example no-longer being able to solo legendarys on elite with offensive passives).
If your here to get the devs to roll back the changes you need to completely rephrase your arguments.
Wait, you believe the devs know what they are doing? :eek:
They have no idea, they code but they don't know the product. I know what I'm talking about. I code for a living and have to produce things for others. What Cryptic fails to do over and over and over again is realize that what they want and what they think is fun has no tangent to what players think.
Criptic failed soo many times in they "vision" it's absurd. Do I need to mention the day 1 patch or the numerous Kitchen Sink ones? On Alert ? .... you get my point.
There is no such thing as "intended" when it comes to Cryptic. It took months to years to fix 'intended" behavior. Unless it's obscenely broken (Eruption) there is no baseline is saying what is acceptable and Cryptic are the last to say anything about it.
Enough bugs, imbalances and exploits have made it to Live because of "DEV vision". Their vision is short sighted and poorly implemented.
I'm not fond of another round of regearing, rebuilding and re-everything. I'm tired of people defending Cryptic's decisions over and over again. It was them who brought CO in the state it is now. It's their vision which turned crafting into a joke. It's their vision which re-sold us costume pieces which we could get for free before. Cryptic vision == $$$ nothing more nothing less. Whatever sells at the cost of everything else.
Ok, so, there's been a lot of posting here, and frequently. I really hope that people actually look at this post, since I feel my last posts have been effectively overlooked. (Then again, I didn't really post anything super amazing, so meh).
A lot have points have been made, and I'd like to highlight a few, first I'll mentioned nightr0d's posts, since he's been the most frequent poster as of late. Nightr0d has pointed out, in several posts that reducing the survivability of offensive passives is biased due to the fact the defensive passives (and supportives) can accumulate large amounts of offense and crit, as much as offensive passives, and in the case of AoPM, more. This is true, whether its unbelievable or not.
In fact, I've had friends tell me they've gotten better damage numbers from using Defiance than from using Way of the Warrior. I attribute that to the fact it gets free energy, often, but that's not the discussion I'm focused on. And while yes, Offensive passives can gain a lot of defensive benefits too, but there's more to it than that.
Due to the way defensive passives work, stacking defenses is incredibly powerful, something you can't do with offensive passives, and while doing so (again, thanks to how things work in our current iteration of CO. I'm looking at you dodge/crit gear) you can still get that large offensive growth. This is why Invul, Defiance, and AoPM are so popular, even amongst PvPers (OH MY GOD HE SAID PVP! HE'S A HERETIC AND HIS ARGUMENT IS NOW INVALID!) Yeah people thats right, PvPers make builds certain ways because they know what passive is generally better. IE AoPM.
I was planning on making this a bigger post, but I have to run to work, so I'll EDIT this post later!
Split it a bit more for readability.
And I agree with that you said. People are simply not objective. What can be donne with a Defensive passilve (in terms of content) cannot be done with an Offensive passive as things are on PTS.
No only that but I would also like to point out the DEX - CRIT RATING interaction. I posted the numbers and if you user DEX and CRIT RATING together you get horrible compensation (About 7% more than if you were to use DEX or CRIT RATING individually).
This is with 5 DEX:
319 Crit RATING => 31.2% Crit Chance
Now for only DEX:
283 DEX => 29.8% Crit Chance
Now to combine them:
319 Crit RATING + 283 DEX => 37.4% Crit Chance
Those numbers are from a larger post where you can see exactly how badly things scale when combined.
Dude, I said Very Hard. Why is you entire post about Elite?
Point was that what was difficult before is impossible now. How can't that be tested?:eek:
The Destroid test was an example. Go into Destroyer's lab on Elite if you think Legendaries are tough you will see that a bunch of TOUGH enemies will eat you for breakfast.
Does offensive passive have to equal faceplant? If so why do Defensive Passives have access to Forms? They are not supposed to do that much dmg eh, no? same argument against Offensive passives (should not be able to sruvive X) turned around (Defensive Passives should not do that much dmg since they are "Defensive").
Well just tested your impossible destroids on elite, still using the same TGM build without CON. Since there are two destroids on elite you need to pay attention to the charge up icon over the head of the second one, doing that it was quite easy really. The only way I could imagine dying is if you get knocked though block by one destroid, and then the other does its charge attack right after, making it impossible to block.
I'm Touched that I would be remembered, who of us have you bumped into? out of curiosity.
I remembered because you complained.
I was running my FF tank Allie, and clearing rooms for everyone. You and the rest of the team were struggling just to get through the first big room. I was one person clearing 3 hallways, and you exclaimed I was inconsiderate. When I can clear that many, 4 people should be able to get through one room without too much trouble. I never have the guarantee of a tank in my pugs and always play accordingly.
That's why I remember. If I can do 3 times+ the work that 4 people struggle with, and someone still take the time to complain, I remember.
The second time was similar, but more being annoyed that you weren't really able to fulfill your support role. I think it was teammates not being strong enough to last long enough for you to support them, and me clearing most of the way.
Well just tested your impossible destroids on elite, still using the same TGM build without CON. Since there are two destroids on elite you need to pay attention to the charge up icon over the head of the second one, doing that it was quite easy really. The only way I could imagine dying is if you get knocked though block by one destroid, and then the other does its charge attack right after, making it impossible to block.
Was this build geared with Legion's R9 + Vigilante secondaries?
Actually what build were you using exactly?
Were you using devices?
My toon can't defeat a Destroid on Elite and yeah I do get the double kb in a row kill on Elite that's why (less so on Very Hard)
I understand.
What I'm saying is that the devs never intended you to do that in the first place. If were talking about baseline power balance, were talking about normal difficulty and mob ranks around master villain, supper villain and enforcer. Any thing soloing above normal difficulty and above super villain (like Legendary, and Cosmic) is ahead of the power curve.
The devs are making adjustments because people are doing things like soloing legandaries on elite or very hard (lets just say high difficulty). When you say you can no longer do that then that just tells the devs that they are accomplishing what they set out to do.
EDIT:
I said there is nothing to test because there is no need to test what you are saying. If any thing, posting that you can still solo legandarys on elite (or even very hard) with offensive passives is more likely to bring more nerfs than to stop nerfs. Your intention seems to be the latter.
Here's the problem. You can't create challenging content for the best players without making it near impossible for the average ones.
I saw people wipe all the time in Cybermind, FFs regularly, and I would still be standing on my naturally weaker AT.
I see people eat it in Grav all the time. Don't get me wrong, a few grav cascades in a row will kill most poeple. But you have to admit it's kinda funny when the first person dies in under 30s of starting the fight.
I can solo elite mega ds in a number of ways. Full teams can still fail in comparison.
As no content is truly being added, and I have yet to see a new zone in 2 YEARS, there's nothing motivating me to complete the SAME content in a WEAKER state.
It be one thing if it was just heroic gear, but they're even messing with legion, something that was gambled for. This just won't play out well. I find myself losing more interest every day and wishing I had never come back at all. What about the new players that bought into keys or saved for months to finally buy some legion agility/elusive?
I could create challenging content that wouldn't resort to instant kill mechanics. Content that made people work for the win but not be punished for a single player's failure and still have room for a margin of error.
The irony is you could just look at PVP dynamics. Heal debuffs. Knocks, CC. Spike Damage. Supplemental damage. At least they got the "NTTG" tho I think its a bit extreme to constantly have to remove travels, whether it be warlord, hi pan or cybermind.
Was this build geared with Legion's R9 + Vigilante secondaries?
Actually what build were you using exactly?
Were you using devices?
My toon can't defeat a Destroid on Elite and yeah I do get the double kb in a row kill on Elite that's why (less so on Very Hard)
Vigil and justice gear, and r7 mods and no devices. And I would think you will not get double knocks at all on very hard? Since you are not fighting two destroids.
Conviction was just enough to keep me alive, to make it really easy you could throw in a second heal or an necrullitic elixir or take CON.
Vigil and justice gear, and r7 mods and no devices. And I would think you will not get double knocks at all on very hard? Since you are not fighting two destroids.
Conviction was just enough to keep me alive, to make it really easy you could throw in a second heal or an necrullitic elixir or take CON.
Actually you fight 2x Destroids on Very Hard as well.
Anyways, try using lesser gear and then do it. You basically went all out with that build. It's not exactly average it's pretty much maxed out in terms of gear. Things should not be balanced around gear that is that expensive, 450 000Q just for the secondaries lol.
Try Heroic/Mercenary gear with R5-6 mods and no Vigilante secondaries but normal Purple/Blues.
Actually you fight 2x Destroids on Very Hard as well.
Anyways, try using lesser gear and then do it. You basically went all out with that build. It's not exactly average it's pretty much maxed out in terms of gear.
Try Heroic/Mercenary gear with R5-6 mods and no Vigilante secondaries but normal Purple/Blues.
Why do we need to be able to solo that on elite with average gear, what will we do to get a challenge with good gear then?
Actually you fight 2x Destroids on Very Hard as well.
Anyways, try using lesser gear and then do it. You basically went all out with that build. It's not exactly average it's pretty much maxed out in terms of gear.
Try Heroic/Mercenary gear with R5-6 mods and no Vigilante secondaries but normal Purple/Blues.
Haha .. but thats exactly what i say. All these nerfs have just one reason : make people buy more key for Justice Gear so that they are where they were before.
Then a while later the snakes can complain that heroes are still to powerfull, and we get more nerfs but at the same time we get Mega-Justice gear.
That can be continued forever .. as long as there are still people left willing to pay for these stupid keys.
Why do we need to be able to solo that on elite with average gear, what will we do to get a challenge with good gear then?
It was used as a comparison from Live to PTS. That's what I used because it was easier for me to keep track than fighting a lot of mobs in Vikorin's layer. People can use something else but using the kind of gear you are using is not even remotely "average". That gear is not even Live yet.
You can pick your test, go on Live and do X take the same toon bring it to PTS and to X again. As long as X provides a challenge then check the difference.
Haha .. but thats exactly what i say. All these nerfs have just one reason : make people buy more key for Justice Gear so that they are where they were before.
Then a while later the snakes can complain that heroes are still to powerfull, and we get more nerfs but at the same time we get Mega-Justice gear.
That can be continued forever .. as long as there are still people left willing to pay for these stupid keys.
I pointed out this Nerf -> Release better gear loop as well. People don't believe it though. Some just don't see it for whatever reason.
They also bring random arguments such as "we are too strong" or "you should not be able to survive with an Offensive passive" etc... I wonder where they got their spreadsheets telling them what should and should not be possible. Truth is they have none, what they say are just empty words with no substance. It's like people are jealous of Offensive Passive users and want them nerfed. That's the kind of bias I'm seeing here.
Defensive passives are OK and the dmg they can stack is INTENDED but Offensive passives should NOT BE ABLE TO SURVIVE. Funny how that is.
It would also be nice if people would not use maxed out gear to determine a baseline. That is like saying people in the 3rd world should own a Lamborghini. That's quite a high standard to set up.
It was used as a comparison from Live to PTS. That's what I used because it was easier for me to keep track than fighting a lot of mobs in Vikorin's layer. People can use something else but using the kind of gear you are using is not even remotely "average". That gear is not even Live yet.
You can pick your test, go on Live and do X take the same toon bring it to PTS and to X again. As long as X provides a challenge then check the difference.
Oh well if your argument is that more dodge chance makes you harder to kill... well you are right there... Making that point really doesn't need multiple pages of arguing. And that is a much different tone then your other posts about this.
It seems pretty fair to test changes that are not on live yet, with gear that is not on live yet.
And again... elite is supposed to be difficult.. it is NOT a problem if you avarage dps build can't solo stuff on elite. It is a problem when adventure packs or comic series, even on normal get almost impossible. But I am not going to make a blade AT just to test that one.
Oh well if your argument is that more dodge chance makes you harder to kill... well you are right there... Making that point really doesn't need multiple pages of arguing. And that is a much different tone then your other posts about this.
It seems pretty fair to test changes that are not on live yet, with gear that is not on live yet.
And again... elite is supposed to be difficult.. it is NOT a problem if you avarage dps build can't solo stuff on elite. It is a problem when adventure packs or comic series, even on normal get almost impossible. But I am not going to make a blade AT just to test that one.
Not sure what you mean by "tone" but I guess as I repeat myself I might cut some corners here and there.
Wait, you believe the devs know what they are doing? :eek:
They have no idea, they code but they don't know the product. I know what I'm talking about. I code for a living and have to produce things for others. What Cryptic fails to do over and over and over again is realize that what they want and what they think is fun has no tangent to what players think.
Criptic failed soo many times in they "vision" it's absurd. Do I need to mention the day 1 patch or the numerous Kitchen Sink ones? On Alert ? .... you get my point.
There is no such thing as "intended" when it comes to Cryptic. It took months to years to fix 'intended" behavior. Unless it's obscenely broken (Eruption) there is no baseline is saying what is acceptable and Cryptic are the last to say anything about it.
Enough bugs, imbalances and exploits have made it to Live because of "DEV vision". Their vision is short sighted and poorly implemented.
I'm not fond of another round of regearing, rebuilding and re-everything. I'm tired of people defending Cryptic's decisions over and over again. It was them who brought CO in the state it is now. It's their vision which turned crafting into a joke. It's their vision which re-sold us costume pieces which we could get for free before. Cryptic vision == $$$ nothing more nothing less. Whatever sells at the cost of everything else.
I'm not going to comment on weather your right or wrong, but I will say that talking like this wont get the devs to listen to you. This ties into my previous point.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
I'm not going to comment on weather your right or wrong, but I will say that talking like this wont get the devs to listen to you. This ties into my previous point.
They won't listen anyways. The most elaborate proof would still not be sufficient to persuade them. They have to do this to justify the new gear. They will push this live I have no doubt about it.
What is the alternative? Provide numbers? I did. What else can I do?
I could point out again the Offensive passives from Fire, Ice, Wind etc. have almost no defense.
The fact that they made those changes shows me that their "vision" is incomplete. Many thing that those changes will affect have not be accounted for and won't be accounted for by the devs.
In fact, I've had friends tell me they've gotten better damage numbers from using Defiance than from using Way of the Warrior.
Ive seen this.
I (admittedly at around lv30) was in one of those bashes where there is only one other person. I wont reveal the persons name but they totally ***** me in with a defiance toon. Afterwords i was sitting looking at my combat logs and I could not for the life of me figure out how someone with defiance could put out those kind of numbers.
I don't know how that build works so i can't nerf herd it.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Ive seen this.
I (admittedly at around lv30) was in one of those bashes where there is only one other person. I wont reveal the persons name but they totally ***** me in with a defiance toon. Afterwords i was sitting looking at my combat logs and I could not for the life of me figure out how someone with defiance could put out those kind of numbers.
I don't know how that build works so i can't nerf herd it.
Here's the basic synopsis: additive damage bonus is both really easy to get and really heavily DRd to the point where, the bonus damage from offensive passives means almost nothing, this can be shown in game by using the Hybrid role. Actually , Hybrid role is probably the best bar setter when it comes to passive comparison since all roles have access to it. I'll let you all have fun with that thought, my break just ended.
I think gear shouldn't factor much into what you can and can't do in the game. I'm happy to see that the devs agree.
By your logic, modifications shouldn't make a difference either, eh? r1 should be on par with r9, right? I am quite speechless how far the mmo community has devolved in the past few years...
By your logic, modifications shouldn't make a difference either, eh? r1 should be on par with r9, right? I am quite speechless how far the mmo community has devolved in the past few years...
This has little to do with the relevant portions of this thread but I'll tackle it for a moment just to make a minor point.
Ask someone who has had SL Elite Blues if it's too late for them to change gear completely, Gradii. You'd be suprised by the answer I suspect. Also, a gearless model mostly benefits people who are, IMO, too lazy to run a little Unity. I would encourage more debate on this particular topic but... <Looks at PTS Notes> ....yeah, I've likely gone too far off topic in this thread as it is for now. Perhaps in another more relevant thread to the subject. :biggrin:
On Topic...
Suggestion: If you have faith in your products then I would suggest leaving the items on Debugger a bit past them hitting Live for people to be able to "Test Drive" them which might encourage sales.
I pointed out this Nerf -> Release better gear loop as well. People don't believe it though. Some just don't see it for whatever reason.
They also bring random arguments such as "we are too strong" or "you should not be able to survive with an Offensive passive" etc... I wonder where they got their spreadsheets telling them what should and should not be possible. Truth is they have none, what they say are just empty words with no substance. It's like people are jealous of Offensive Passive users and want them nerfed. That's the kind of bias I'm seeing here.
Defensive passives are OK and the dmg they can stack is INTENDED but Offensive passives should NOT BE ABLE TO SURVIVE. Funny how that is.
It would also be nice if people would not use maxed out gear to determine a baseline. That is like saying people in the 3rd world should own a Lamborghini. That's quite a high standard to set up.
In the order they came to me, my responses to this are:
Justice Gear is not better than Legion Gear except situationally. So there is currently no evidence that they are nerfing dodge so that you'll buy the new gear. (If this changes then I'll probably join you in your outrage)
Offense going multiplicative makes SS/Passive/Form damage bonuses more important and thus buffs all offensive passive users.
Defensive toons are going to be squishier too, which means that they can start dialing the damage down a bit on high end team content.
Block a little until the Tank grabs aggro. (WARNING: this point is a joke and should not be taken seriously.)
If you're a squishy AT with no heal, then you need a healer in team content anyway.
ATs need to be seriously reworked (some less than others) regardless and these changes make it more likely that that'll happen.
Gravitar already needs to be reworked so she doesn't often rapid cascade kill people who don't hold aggro. Since Tanks are going to be slightly squishier now, this is likely to happen after the new rampage goes up.
I agree, maxed out gear with R9 mods shouldn't be the baseline. Although I can't imagine why a level 40 wouldn't have a full set of Heroic primaries with R5 mods after a few days. They are not hard to get. In fact, you almost have to go out of your way not to get them. Even if you took the vehicle mods from the special alert daily instead of the SCR (although why anyone would do that is beyond me).
So, can these changes end up going horribly, horribly wrong? Yes, but so far there hasn't been much evidence of it. If the latest reduction to dodge passives is too much then they'll probably take it half way to what it was before and then see if it fixes it. If the gear changes are too much then they can fix that too.
This next bit is not aimed at anyone in particular!
Rather than panicking, It would help more if the people who are worried that they won't be able to play after the changes would move the toons in question to PTS, regear them, and then get combat logs for the content that they are concerned about so that the changes can be balanced better on the low end.*
These changes aren't even tentatively scheduled for live yet. If you still see huge problems when the changes are being finalized? Then, and only then, should you panic.
*Many of the people worried are likely to be Silver players. It'd be better for everyone if we could use PTS (with only the same number and kind of slots that we have on live), but we currently cannot. If you are a Silver player then you might want to do something else for a bit to keep your mind off of things.
____________________________________
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
Ask someone who has had SL Elite Blues if it's too late for them to change gear completely, Gradii. You'd be suprised by the answer I suspect.
Oh .. that again. I was always against getting better gear in harder modes already before Elite-Modes came into the game. Of course all the player who wanted them also said : Noooo we don't want better gear .. just the challenege .. thats all.
Then i played A.ION for 6-7 months, and when i came back i noticed that there was now blue gear that was much better than all my Purples that had cost me thausends of Nemesis Tokens.
Still, the problem is that its a totally paradoxon if they say that players are to powerful and have to be nerfed (either powers or gear) and in the same time the bring out even better gear.
Also, Elite Gear was easy to get from Freon and Heroic easy from Unity.
Comments
My point was more that all of those characters are perfectly viable when soloing, along with being powerful assets to their teams. Invisible Woman's the most powerful of the Fantastic Four, Batman's has multiple books dedicated to his soloing adventures, etc.
I picked those because of the question Nightrod asked about "what hero needs a healer following them around?". None of them do, but all of them do better with added support. Support in CO is more than just spamming green numbers.
Cyclops or Captain America's "planning" and "leadership", and the boosts that that gives to their teams could be somewhat emulated by the Leadership (I think?) power pools in CoX, and the closest thing CO has to those is the Aura powers. It's a shame they are stuck with the garish Sorcery graphics, but that's about all we have right now.
And Nightrod:
I'd say calling everyone who plays Support "selfish" is you being pretty against their style of play. That's what originally prompted my response. That, and the whole "Support role shouldn't even exist" thing. (All this was in your responses to RTMA, I'm too lazy to quote the exact parts at the moment)
Try playing a support character that focuses strictly on healing and see how much of a pain in the **** it is. The only healing ability in the game that can keep up with incoming damage is Iniquity, and that requires a lot of self-healing on the user's part to stay alive. And there are only two support-role passives in the game that only provide healing (Seraphim and Medical Nanites). The rest are buffs to let people either survive more damage or DPS harder (or...AoAC, but let's forget that one exists).
You could build successful teams without a "healer" before On Alert, and you can do it now. You'll still be able to do it after the dodge/crit changes, too.
Your vision of "self-sufficient" seems to be "I can make my Offensive Passive as survivable as a Defensive Passive, but with more offense", which is what Quarry was before these changes. And that level of "balance" is bad for anyone that isn't using Quarry.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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There should be proper balance between Offense and Defense but making Offense be unable to do the same content as Defense is not it. Again, Defense should provide a guarantee of survival (at least a significantly high one) while Offense would provide more damage -> take them down before they do. That works only if you have some means of preventing the enemy from obliterating you immediately.
Have people tried an Offensive toon on PTS? My toon went from 57% dodge to 30%. THAT's 30% on RNG -> how does that help me not get one shotted? Even before I would face-plant if I did not retreat or forget a heal or got overconfident. There is little margine for error with an Offensive passive.
I'm Touched that I would be remembered, who of us have you bumped into? out of curiosity.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
Also, before i go out and try to solo this destroid (which im not sure will prove any thing because i dont think they are intended to be soloed but im interested by the challenge) I think it would be best if you gave me the build that you used and failed with. That way there wont be any issue with the results.
EDIT:
Better yet, we can meet up on PTS if you want.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
What is this supposed to prove "Sighed and taps forehead"? That because you sighed and made some gesture you are right and others don't get it? If you can't handle numbers then don't argue things with people that can bring numbers to support they claims.
You got some nerve. You accuse me of being selfish because my opinion does not include bending over to make room for roles and trinity?
I don't even know what to say to that list of yours. Is that targeted at me? I can't even make out what you want to say there. The only thing I saw is you making yourself out to be better than any of those people who are "selfishness, arrogant, egotism, exploitation, manipulation, neglect, not to mention despairity". You should look at yourself a bit more before you label others.
No, Not you, Humanity as a Species and what it does to itself, Human Nature from an Observing standpoint, I know it can do better despite circumstances, from my experience maybe it's just a form of Inferiority Complex from interacting on a gaming platform, but whatever, Delete the Posts, I don't care, have your win and move on, before I get scrutinized any further.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
I have nothing AGAINST support (me not caring much dose not me I hate it and I want it to die in a fire). I'm all for buffing support that's find by me. I don't mind it, but I do mind the idea of NEEDING someone to buff me. Support provides "support" so in increases you damage, survivability, speed of completing a lair/alert etc. BUT that does not mean that without SUPPORT those thing should not be possible.
To me support is something that helps improve things like a damage multiplier. It makes thing better but it does not imply that without it people should be horrible. That's the trinity system talking where you need people in well defined roles. CO does not need that and can still make PERFECT use of people in Support.
I'd be up for it but currently I don't have the time to do so.
The build I'm using is one that I took directly from Live to see exactly how much of a difference it makes.
My argument is not that only my build was affected terribly but every Offensive Passive toon. I can't solo a Destroid on elite (highest I can with my gear was Very Hard) and even then I died a lot. That's why I know how much the dodge changes will affect me.
OH BTW I also talked about the DEX - Crit Rating iteration being completely rubbish now. I have posted numbers to prove it a couple of pages ago. There no interpretation on those, it's pure math.
Take Heroic or any other higher tire than normal drop gear (not Legion's) and gear them up. For defense use an avoidance core and the rest put it in dodge. This combined with an offensive passive will give you 30% dodge chance. On live I have 57%, which to me is extremely obvious how much I'm nerfed. If it was 5% then my argument would be difficult to prove but I lost 27% dodge, that's almost 1/2.
The build does not matter, just try the build you would want to play and tell me how it feels to you.
People complain about Offensive toons being unkillable. I have no clue what they are talking about. My toon was not unkillable at all. It was fun to play and when I fought a boss I knew that if I push too hard I'll faceplant. Naturally if people go Legion's R9 with fully geared Vigilante secs and a full rooster of devices that's different. But that's an extreme case not even close to the average.
It's funny thought that such an extreme build is taken to be the norm and used in arguments when people ignorantly just say "you should not be able to tank or do X with an Offensive Passive". Truth is, that you can't do those things unless you invested quite a bit on LIVE.
People forgot the Offensive Passive outcry that was before On Alert and just say it was ok before it. The truth is that it was NOT.
Soloing Destroids on very hard with an offensive passive is pretty impressive any way. If you recall, Destroids (especially on elite) are notorious for being difficult and have been so since Resistance was first released.
If your soloing Destroids on very hard, your already pretty ahead of the curve. I don't see how any not being able to solo (Legendary?) rank mobs on elite is a baseline for power balance. Elite is optional and only for stronger builds that want a challenge and I don't think legendarys are intended to be soloed. This is why Desstroids can be hacked and bypassed in resistance.
Regardless of how you may feel, not being able to solo Destroids on Elite is not out side of what the devs intended and will not compel them to make any changes.
EDIT:
Offensive toons are still more durable than they were before On Alert.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
What would constitute an offensive passive being survivable? Not dying? And a defensive passive more so? Dying less than not dying? Or tanking and not dying? So does that mean if a defensive passive is not tanking, an offensive passive should die?
There's no single reconciliation to be right or wrong about. But there's one truth, dying can be managed and it is a game mechanic. If certain content is demanding, yet one is unable or unwilling to incorporate death management, then a support is a viable alternative if it has to come down to it.
The only ideal is an agreeable compromise between the two passive types. Reaching that consensus however will undoubtedly not be inclusive of everyone's opinion of how it should be.
Dude, I said Very Hard. Why is you entire post about Elite?
Point was that what was difficult before is impossible now. How can't that be tested?:eek:
The Destroid test was an example. Go into Destroyer's lab on Elite if you think Legendaries are tough you will see that a bunch of TOUGH enemies will eat you for breakfast.
Does offensive passive have to equal faceplant? If so why do Defensive Passives have access to Forms? They are not supposed to do that much dmg eh, no? same argument against Offensive passives (should not be able to sruvive X) turned around (Defensive Passives should not do that much dmg since they are "Defensive").
I understand.
What I'm saying is that the devs never intended you to do that in the first place. If were talking about baseline power balance, were talking about normal difficulty and mob ranks around master villain, supper villain and enforcer. Any thing soloing above normal difficulty and above super villain (like Legendary, and Cosmic) is ahead of the power curve.
The devs are making adjustments because people are doing things like soloing legandaries on elite or very hard (lets just say high difficulty). When you say you can no longer do that then that just tells the devs that they are accomplishing what they set out to do.
EDIT:
I said there is nothing to test because there is no need to test what you are saying. If any thing, posting that you can still solo legandarys on elite (or even very hard) with offensive passives is more likely to bring more nerfs than to stop nerfs. Your intention seems to be the latter.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
O_o You know there is a perk for killing Destroids. Who ever said that they are not meant to be soloed. Yopu can solo them with a Defensive passive, does that men defense needs a nerf. It's not like it's a walk in the park to fight a Destroid. Let's not be pedantic about me using Destroids as an example. Go into the world and see how your survival looks like in Vikorin's lair. No need to solo it, just go in and see if you can survive a second considering the damage output of the mobs there. Then take a Defensive Passive and see how that feels like.
Again, if Offensive Passives should not be able to get Defense why should Defensive Passilves have access to Offense.
Currently any Defensive toon can have as much Crit Chance as an Offensive toon. HOW COME PEOPLE DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT? The bias here is obnoxious.
In all seriousness the hypocrisy here is so bad it stinks. Defense should be able to stack dmg (offense, crit) but Offense should not be able to stack mitigation (dodge, defense).
Those changes don't improve quality of life they just provide Cryptic with the means to sell us more absurdly OP gear. They are not fooling me with this nonsense.
Simply take an Offensive toon and a Defensive toon ad see what you can do with one that you can't with the other. You will understand my point then.
Look, i disagree with you but thats not my main point.
Its not me you have to convince. Keep in mind the intention behind the devs actions. If your goal is to express your displesure for the changes then fine, you have a right to your opinion. But we all get it now and you have said your piece so you can move on.
If your intention is to say that The outcome of the changes are not inline with the devs intentions, then you are not only failing but your are verifying that things are working as intended (for example no-longer being able to solo legendarys on elite with offensive passives).
If your here to get the devs to roll back the changes you need to completely rephrase your arguments.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
The idea is predicated on the thought that survival is purely binary, while damage is gradient.
There are different levels of damage, and therefore different kill speeds.
There are different levels of survivability, and therefore different requirements for reacting to incoming damage if you want to not faceplant.
However, despite different rates of damage, all damage is sufficient to kill, excepting Ao'Qephoth and Teleiosaurus (The only two bits of content with strong enemy heals that I know of) the difference being the rate of damage.
Survival is not binary. Just because you survive, doesn't mean that you had an easy time of it. Survival doesn't automatically equate to equivilance with a defensive passive, just the same as ability to kill doesn't equate to an equivilance with an offensive passive.
A lot have points have been made, and I'd like to highlight a few, first I'll mentioned nightr0d's posts, since he's been the most frequent poster as of late. Nightr0d has pointed out, in several posts that reducing the survivability of offensive passives is biased due to the fact the defensive passives (and supportives) can accumulate large amounts of offense and crit, as much as offensive passives, and in the case of AoPM, more. This is true, whether its unbelievable or not. In fact, I've had friends tell me they've gotten better damage numbers from using Defiance than from using Way of the Warrior. I attribute that to the fact it gets free energy, often, but that's not the discussion I'm focused on. And while yes, Offensive passives can gain a lot of defensive benefits too, but there's more to it than that. Due to the way defensive passives work, stacking defenses is incredibly powerful, something you can't do with offensive passives, and while doing so (again, thanks to how things work in our current iteration of CO. I'm looking at you dodge/crit gear) you can still get that large offensive growth. This is why Invul, Defiance, and AoPM are so popular, even amongst PvPers (OH MY GOD HE SAID PVP! HE'S A HERETIC AND HIS ARGUMENT IS NOW INVALID!) Yeah people thats right, PvPers make builds certain ways because they know what passive is generally better. IE AoPM.
I was planning on making this a bigger post, but I have to run to work, so I'll EDIT this post later!
Wait, you believe the devs know what they are doing? :eek:
They have no idea, they code but they don't know the product. I know what I'm talking about. I code for a living and have to produce things for others. What Cryptic fails to do over and over and over again is realize that what they want and what they think is fun has no tangent to what players think.
Criptic failed soo many times in they "vision" it's absurd. Do I need to mention the day 1 patch or the numerous Kitchen Sink ones? On Alert ? .... you get my point.
There is no such thing as "intended" when it comes to Cryptic. It took months to years to fix 'intended" behavior. Unless it's obscenely broken (Eruption) there is no baseline is saying what is acceptable and Cryptic are the last to say anything about it.
Enough bugs, imbalances and exploits have made it to Live because of "DEV vision". Their vision is short sighted and poorly implemented.
I'm not fond of another round of regearing, rebuilding and re-everything. I'm tired of people defending Cryptic's decisions over and over again. It was them who brought CO in the state it is now. It's their vision which turned crafting into a joke. It's their vision which re-sold us costume pieces which we could get for free before. Cryptic vision == $$$ nothing more nothing less. Whatever sells at the cost of everything else.
Split it a bit more for readability.
And I agree with that you said. People are simply not objective. What can be donne with a Defensive passilve (in terms of content) cannot be done with an Offensive passive as things are on PTS.
No only that but I would also like to point out the DEX - CRIT RATING interaction. I posted the numbers and if you user DEX and CRIT RATING together you get horrible compensation (About 7% more than if you were to use DEX or CRIT RATING individually).
This is with 5 DEX:
319 Crit RATING => 31.2% Crit Chance
Now for only DEX:
283 DEX => 29.8% Crit Chance
Now to combine them:
319 Crit RATING + 283 DEX => 37.4% Crit Chance
Those numbers are from a larger post where you can see exactly how badly things scale when combined.
Well just tested your impossible destroids on elite, still using the same TGM build without CON. Since there are two destroids on elite you need to pay attention to the charge up icon over the head of the second one, doing that it was quite easy really. The only way I could imagine dying is if you get knocked though block by one destroid, and then the other does its charge attack right after, making it impossible to block.
I remembered because you complained.
I was running my FF tank Allie, and clearing rooms for everyone. You and the rest of the team were struggling just to get through the first big room. I was one person clearing 3 hallways, and you exclaimed I was inconsiderate. When I can clear that many, 4 people should be able to get through one room without too much trouble. I never have the guarantee of a tank in my pugs and always play accordingly.
That's why I remember. If I can do 3 times+ the work that 4 people struggle with, and someone still take the time to complain, I remember.
The second time was similar, but more being annoyed that you weren't really able to fulfill your support role. I think it was teammates not being strong enough to last long enough for you to support them, and me clearing most of the way.
woohoo! Thank You!!
Was this build geared with Legion's R9 + Vigilante secondaries?
Actually what build were you using exactly?
Were you using devices?
My toon can't defeat a Destroid on Elite and yeah I do get the double kb in a row kill on Elite that's why (less so on Very Hard)
Here's the problem. You can't create challenging content for the best players without making it near impossible for the average ones.
I saw people wipe all the time in Cybermind, FFs regularly, and I would still be standing on my naturally weaker AT.
I see people eat it in Grav all the time. Don't get me wrong, a few grav cascades in a row will kill most poeple. But you have to admit it's kinda funny when the first person dies in under 30s of starting the fight.
I can solo elite mega ds in a number of ways. Full teams can still fail in comparison.
As no content is truly being added, and I have yet to see a new zone in 2 YEARS, there's nothing motivating me to complete the SAME content in a WEAKER state.
It be one thing if it was just heroic gear, but they're even messing with legion, something that was gambled for. This just won't play out well. I find myself losing more interest every day and wishing I had never come back at all. What about the new players that bought into keys or saved for months to finally buy some legion agility/elusive?
I could create challenging content that wouldn't resort to instant kill mechanics. Content that made people work for the win but not be punished for a single player's failure and still have room for a margin of error.
The irony is you could just look at PVP dynamics. Heal debuffs. Knocks, CC. Spike Damage. Supplemental damage. At least they got the "NTTG" tho I think its a bit extreme to constantly have to remove travels, whether it be warlord, hi pan or cybermind.
Vigil and justice gear, and r7 mods and no devices. And I would think you will not get double knocks at all on very hard? Since you are not fighting two destroids.
Conviction was just enough to keep me alive, to make it really easy you could throw in a second heal or an necrullitic elixir or take CON.
Actually you fight 2x Destroids on Very Hard as well.
Anyways, try using lesser gear and then do it. You basically went all out with that build. It's not exactly average it's pretty much maxed out in terms of gear. Things should not be balanced around gear that is that expensive, 450 000Q just for the secondaries lol.
Try Heroic/Mercenary gear with R5-6 mods and no Vigilante secondaries but normal Purple/Blues.
Why do we need to be able to solo that on elite with average gear, what will we do to get a challenge with good gear then?
Haha .. but thats exactly what i say. All these nerfs have just one reason : make people buy more key for Justice Gear so that they are where they were before.
Then a while later the snakes can complain that heroes are still to powerfull, and we get more nerfs but at the same time we get Mega-Justice gear.
That can be continued forever .. as long as there are still people left willing to pay for these stupid keys.
It was used as a comparison from Live to PTS. That's what I used because it was easier for me to keep track than fighting a lot of mobs in Vikorin's layer. People can use something else but using the kind of gear you are using is not even remotely "average". That gear is not even Live yet.
You can pick your test, go on Live and do X take the same toon bring it to PTS and to X again. As long as X provides a challenge then check the difference.
I pointed out this Nerf -> Release better gear loop as well. People don't believe it though. Some just don't see it for whatever reason.
They also bring random arguments such as "we are too strong" or "you should not be able to survive with an Offensive passive" etc... I wonder where they got their spreadsheets telling them what should and should not be possible. Truth is they have none, what they say are just empty words with no substance. It's like people are jealous of Offensive Passive users and want them nerfed. That's the kind of bias I'm seeing here.
Defensive passives are OK and the dmg they can stack is INTENDED but Offensive passives should NOT BE ABLE TO SURVIVE. Funny how that is.
It would also be nice if people would not use maxed out gear to determine a baseline. That is like saying people in the 3rd world should own a Lamborghini. That's quite a high standard to set up.
Oh well if your argument is that more dodge chance makes you harder to kill... well you are right there... Making that point really doesn't need multiple pages of arguing. And that is a much different tone then your other posts about this.
It seems pretty fair to test changes that are not on live yet, with gear that is not on live yet.
And again... elite is supposed to be difficult.. it is NOT a problem if you avarage dps build can't solo stuff on elite. It is a problem when adventure packs or comic series, even on normal get almost impossible. But I am not going to make a blade AT just to test that one.
Not sure what you mean by "tone" but I guess as I repeat myself I might cut some corners here and there.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
They won't listen anyways. The most elaborate proof would still not be sufficient to persuade them. They have to do this to justify the new gear. They will push this live I have no doubt about it.
What is the alternative? Provide numbers? I did. What else can I do?
I could point out again the Offensive passives from Fire, Ice, Wind etc. have almost no defense.
The fact that they made those changes shows me that their "vision" is incomplete. Many thing that those changes will affect have not be accounted for and won't be accounted for by the devs.
Deliciously nutritious!
I (admittedly at around lv30) was in one of those bashes where there is only one other person. I wont reveal the persons name but they totally ***** me in with a defiance toon. Afterwords i was sitting looking at my combat logs and I could not for the life of me figure out how someone with defiance could put out those kind of numbers.
I don't know how that build works so i can't nerf herd it.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Here's the basic synopsis: additive damage bonus is both really easy to get and really heavily DRd to the point where, the bonus damage from offensive passives means almost nothing, this can be shown in game by using the Hybrid role. Actually , Hybrid role is probably the best bar setter when it comes to passive comparison since all roles have access to it. I'll let you all have fun with that thought, my break just ended.
Glorious Revolution.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
By your logic, modifications shouldn't make a difference either, eh? r1 should be on par with r9, right? I am quite speechless how far the mmo community has devolved in the past few years...
Gear should always matter. This isn't failwars 2.
Gear does matter in guild wars 2..
Right, that's why it has structured pvp. Idc about pve.
Wait...people play gw2 for structured pvp(aka conquest) and not WvW?
Try running a condition build with Berserker gear, see how well it works.
Gear matters even in structured PvP. You just don't have the ability to overpower other players by being better-geared than them.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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Ask someone who has had SL Elite Blues if it's too late for them to change gear completely, Gradii. You'd be suprised by the answer I suspect. Also, a gearless model mostly benefits people who are, IMO, too lazy to run a little Unity. I would encourage more debate on this particular topic but... <Looks at PTS Notes> ....yeah, I've likely gone too far off topic in this thread as it is for now. Perhaps in another more relevant thread to the subject. :biggrin:
On Topic...
Suggestion: If you have faith in your products then I would suggest leaving the items on Debugger a bit past them hitting Live for people to be able to "Test Drive" them which might encourage sales.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
In the order they came to me, my responses to this are:
So, can these changes end up going horribly, horribly wrong? Yes, but so far there hasn't been much evidence of it. If the latest reduction to dodge passives is too much then they'll probably take it half way to what it was before and then see if it fixes it. If the gear changes are too much then they can fix that too.
This next bit is not aimed at anyone in particular!
Rather than panicking, It would help more if the people who are worried that they won't be able to play after the changes would move the toons in question to PTS, regear them, and then get combat logs for the content that they are concerned about so that the changes can be balanced better on the low end.*
These changes aren't even tentatively scheduled for live yet. If you still see huge problems when the changes are being finalized? Then, and only then, should you panic.
*Many of the people worried are likely to be Silver players. It'd be better for everyone if we could use PTS (with only the same number and kind of slots that we have on live), but we currently cannot. If you are a Silver player then you might want to do something else for a bit to keep your mind off of things.
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
WARNING: Not An Actual Internet Reviewer
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Yeah .. thats why the bring out Justice Gear thats even better than all we have in the game till now.
Oh .. that again. I was always against getting better gear in harder modes already before Elite-Modes came into the game. Of course all the player who wanted them also said : Noooo we don't want better gear .. just the challenege .. thats all.
Then i played A.ION for 6-7 months, and when i came back i noticed that there was now blue gear that was much better than all my Purples that had cost me thausends of Nemesis Tokens.
Still, the problem is that its a totally paradoxon if they say that players are to powerful and have to be nerfed (either powers or gear) and in the same time the bring out even better gear.
Also, Elite Gear was easy to get from Freon and Heroic easy from Unity.
Err, Beldin, you know that its been pointed out, multiple times, that Justice gear is roughly equal to, and partially inferior to Legion gear, right?
Multiple times?
In a few threads?
That you have replied to?
EDIT : Post 300, oh yeah, sweet.
How many of these posts are actually bug reports?
Deliciously nutritious!