" I mean sure it was a gamble and you are protected with the ToS but changes will leave a sour taste in their mouth as well as their pockets."
This is a lie. If you have purchased items with real world money, contact your financial institutions and learn what your rights are.
They are protected by the ToS meaning that you can go ahead and chargeback but they can and will deny you and possibly your bank account anymore charges in the future as well as remove you from their games.
Edit: Just got through looking for it in the ToS:
17. Fees
-Blahblahblahblahblah-
"If you claim a chargeback for any reason, we have the right to investigate and dispute such chargeback. If we believe that your chargeback requirement is spurious, unreasonable, or invalid, we may take the dispute to court. If your chargeback is deemed invalid, you agree to pay for all fees and costs resulting from the disputed chargeback, including but is not limited to legal fees and expenses, damages, monies lost due to non-operation, and chargeback fees."
-Blahblahblahblah-
And then 19. has the account termination clause.
__________________
I implore you to not chargeback and just take it as a loss and move on. Do not dispute any claims for it will only lead you to trouble. Their legal teams will leave you in financial ruin and will bury you in counter claims. There is no David vs Goliath when facing corporations there is only Goliath vs Goliath and any Davids will be squashed and swept out and away from even the light of our one-sided media.
They are protected by the ToS meaning that you can go ahead and chargeback but they can and will deny you and possibly your bank account anymore charges in the future as well as remove you from their games.
Edit: Just got through looking for it in the ToS:
17. Fees
-Blahblahblahblahblah-
"If you claim a chargeback for any reason, we have the right to investigate and dispute such chargeback. If we believe that your chargeback requirement is spurious, unreasonable, or invalid, we may take the dispute to court. If your chargeback is deemed invalid, you agree to pay for all fees and costs resulting from the disputed chargeback, including but is not limited to legal fees and expenses, damages, monies lost due to non-operation, and chargeback fees."
-Blahblahblahblah-
And then 19. has the account termination clause.
__________________
I implore you to not chargeback and just take it as a loss and move on. Do not dispute any claims for it will only lead you to trouble. Their legal teams will leave you in financial ruin and will bury you in counter claims. There is no David vs Goliath when facing corporations there is only Goliath vs Goliath and any Davids will be squashed and swept out and away from even the light of our one-sided media.
Class-action lawsuits only make lawyers rich.
Pwe's legal teams? Vs BofA? Umm......ok sure. Sounds better than the the Hulk v Spiderman debates in zone.
But seriously no. PWE has been through this due to currency devaluation in other venues. I'm not sure where your david-goliath stuff comes from, it implies there is no precedent and that both partners are equal in terms of strength.
Class action? Sure I wanna sign up and get 8 bucks 25 years from now when I will barely remember what is we were squabbling about.
Sorry, just no. I will leave you to say whatever but any savvy customer or someone who is in possesion of common sense simply and frankly knows betterand will consult outside sources.
I am going to ignore the jarring urge to continue with the conversation and move right along to the regularly scheduled moans and groans of nerfing things.
I've been saving this one:
In my opinion, Removing mods within Justice gear costs way too much questionite. At 14k+ a pop at level 40.
OKAY I finally get it now, the dodge changes were made so that the new gear would work out with them.
The new gear is totally crazy, does anyone know how defensive people can be with strength primary now? I tested the gear with all r5 cores and the change from my legions with r7 was immense. I do wonder how exactly you are expecting to implement this gear.
Also people don't be stupid in thinking that they'll allow people to trade in legions to get this new gear, if that was the case everyone could trade in legions of freedom for justice of speed (which is BY FAR the most over powered piece) I managed to get conviction to 2 seconds with r5 cores and active's to 30 seconds. I also managed to get smoke grenade and evasive to 5 seconds. What does this mean?
WELL PvP wise these skills are going to be even more valuable but this change isn't for PvP. PvE wise I see that if you get a rank 3 EM you're going to be able to keep up 2 stacks of it pretty much 24/7. This will allow you to get to about 60% dodge chance without having a dodge passive. NOW if you REALLY WANT to be able to work with a LR toon this is what you are going to be able to do. You need to get justice of speed and certainly not care about dodge from gear so much then you want to get evasive maneuvers and spam away.
People certainly from this point need to stop complaining about dodge, it isn't that bad at all if you get the new gear. The problem I have is the gap between this gear and legions and I am worrying about how they are planning to add it. If it is going to be a lockbox then those keys are going to be selling like crazy to get all the new set as soon as possible. ALTHOUGH I do warn you cryptic, if you do this you will have MANY players leave the game. People will not be happy that they have had to pay for legions from keys for all this time just to find they need to buy more keys after maxing their legions just to get the all new gear, this is not the way to do it. Now I don't really care if people paid to get legions, that isn't the problem the problem is if this new gear is through the thing legions once was.
I suppose the best thing you could do is start off by giving it out through something such as tokens and if you really must put it into a lockbox wait a while before doing so. This will allow people who want to farm to get the gear and then after a while people who didn't farm for the gear and wont do it can then start getting it in lockboxes so to trade it around. I really don't know how you are going to be able to add this gear without anyone complaining and leaving though. Good luck with that.
I am going to ignore the jarring urge to continue with the conversation and move right along to the regularly scheduled moans and groans of nerfing things.
I've been saving this one:
In my opinion, Removing mods within Justice gear costs way too much questionite. At 14k+ a pop at level 40.
Well than continue helping the playerbase and forget what I said.
Well than continue helping the playerbase and forget what I said.
My chargeback situation is mine and mine alone.
Indeed. At least the time you have spent here was enjoyable enough to spend hard-earned money, no?
_______________
On Live the highest hp one could possibly have is 23386(with no stims). With the new gear it will extend it to 28422(with no stims). With a stim you can get 31166 hp using the new gear.
I did a bit of defense stacking and got it to around 720 which is 167% resistance to all damage. The highest defense I've gotten on live would be 615.4 Defense which grants 145% resistance to all damage and I really wasn't trying to 'max' either.
you obviously have never tried building an invuln-dodge toon, themed for body armor and high agility, you obviously don't use LR a lot. I don't care about your opinion anymore, since mine seems to mean nothing to you anyway.
stop the ganging up on me and get back to suggesting decent alternatives to this awful way of implementing the balancing.
capping dodge could work instead, or simply nerfing just avoidance. those are 2 very good suggestions, were you even paying attention?
You can take a potshot at Ashen and be dead wrong as you are now but I'll let him handle his own business.
As to what he said about LR underperforming and what you're saying. I've taken LR builds solo through the Powerhouse set to 5 man hard and leveled through the entire game solo with no healing powers, no healing advantages, no healing specializations and no healing items. At one point I had videos of this up on my youtube channel which is what Ashen is referencing. LR works, that's not the problem and anyone that knows building in this game knows this very well. The problem is that LR is just LR but Quarry/WotW/Night Warrior with Legion Gear is LR plus all of the associated benefits each of those passives grants. LR isn't underperforming, gear along with some other factors, is overperforming.
As to an Invuln-dodge build being destroyed by these changes...have you actually tested this even with the numbers that are there now that are confirmed as not final? I can't imagine anyone who has tested this would even be this vocal about it destroying anything as it doesn't unless a build is nigh-impotent to begin with.
Frankly, some of this stuff is starting to sound like a combination of people that need help making solid builds and some people that want to be unkillable while feigning like that's not the issue.
(Read the first 20pages and decided to respond) First of all, I'd like to express my appreciation for allowing me to represent my Dragon Family to a reasonable extent of a CO Vassal while also explore CO, meet friends, experiment with associate outfits and such, personal symbolic joy, it's what kept me enjoying CO despite it's flaws, Lag and brokenness, it's the first MMO I've stuck with thanks to my mate for introducing me to it, although he has been reluctant to play due to these circumstances, not only that but for most of my Brothers that are using Offensive Passives need some dodge to ensure greater survivability and in contrast Gear wise their is disparity, flat out offense and Defense isn't good enough, for most of us only being able to use lvl 5 mods + Heroic Gear.
For my lvl 40's I like to be able to contribute to the team when it comes to doing Dailies and not be trivialized by certain builds, I cannot change the fact it's Human nature to aggrandize and a tendency to gain advantages over others and such but their needs to be balancing and fixes to this game, rather then what seems like another marketing scheme, oh Humanity & Money, what a atrocious construct, you delude true value for profit then fun/stability which is a fundamental aspect of gaming but that's my perspective.
Hope that is articulate, I cannot find myself enjoying something that is or will be further corrupted, I hope you can make it work, I also never got a chance to enjoy PvP.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
I think you may be missing the point on why people don't like the prospect that the changes are being made because of the new gear.
1. you become pretty weak without some super hard to get gear while before you could be darn strong with any gear (which is one reason why this game is so friendly to casual players)
2. its plain dishonest to claim changes are being made for balance when really they may just want you to buy their new gear as a money grab as some people claim.
3. its a bad idea to nerf people simply because of new gear. if you don't want people to be too strong with this new gear, simply don't make it.
Honestly.. you can have a chrachter that's able to run almost all the content in the game 1-40, just by using the crappy gear that drops for free from mobs. Nobody needs heroic, legendary, or other gear just to play. I know I've done it several times.
The one thing about this game is that most mobs are easy. I get that people are upset, but when people say their character is "weak" without the gear, I cringe. The game has obviously been designed that even the most casual players can run it without needing to gear up.
The one thing about this game is that most mobs are easy. I get that people are upset, but when people say their character is "weak" without the gear, I cringe. The game has obviously been designed that even the most casual players can run it without needing to gear up.
Because they havn't adjusted the difficulty to accomidate for Post OnAlert Update? what is the difference between Difficult and Normal anyway?
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
Honestly.. you can have a chrachter that's able to run almost all the content in the game 1-40, just by using the crappy gear that drops for free from mobs. Nobody needs heroic, legendary, or other gear just to play. I know I've done it several times.
The one thing about this game is that most mobs are easy. I get that people are upset, but when people say their character is "weak" without the gear, I cringe. The game has obviously been designed that even the most casual players can run it without needing to gear up.
This isn't a gear centric game, I don't think it was ever intended to be a MMO where you chase the new shinny gear every level.
That's one of the things I like about it.
The gameplay is about your choices, and there are a dozen or more paths to an effective character. God knows that's why I have so many alts.
See here? That's me, number 7 and I kinda stopped counting my non-40's
I've played virtually every type of character you care to name from 1 to 40, possibly multiple times.
That's a ton of replay value that I wouldn't do if it was necessary to gear the whole lot of the poor toons .
I know I've played WoW and like games almost as much and the gearing thing was a big turn off.
Making this game gear centric is an understandable mistake.
Every other MMO does it, Every other MMO does the trinity, the classes and the forced theme/style power choices.
Champions Online is different in every way from those.
Is different automatically better? No. Is it automatically worse? Also No. There are only a few Superhero MMO's out there and the ones that are more successful [that still live, via con queso CoX] have a big name license.
So what makes CO stand out? Unparalleled choice. Nealy limitless possibilities. Just like it's game styles spiritual and lore's literal origin.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
Honestly.. you can have a chrachter that's able to run almost all the content in the game 1-40, just by using the crappy gear that drops for free from mobs. Nobody needs heroic, legendary, or other gear just to play. I know I've done it several times.
The one thing about this game is that most mobs are easy. I get that people are upset, but when people say their character is "weak" without the gear, I cringe. The game has obviously been designed that even the most casual players can run it without needing to gear up.
I'm a new player (about a month or so) I have a mind lvl 23 and a grimoire lvl 39 (will be 40 by tonight). I got for both the "lvl as you do" questionite gear by doing alerts and Destroid event, so far save Gravitar who 2 shots me (I'm getting heroic just to beat her with less deaths, witch insulted my costume!) and Luther Black who is tricky as all Hell (4 chests is the best I have achieved) I haven't faced anything that says "well my gear is absolute crap, I should stop playing".
As a casual player these changes don't really bother me, but for those who do PvP, harder end content and grinded to get their builds to where they are are now I understand their ire.
My question is this though: if there is going to be a new tier of equipement, will mobs and bosses scaled to lvl 40 be buffed to compensate for it or will they remain at their current power lvls? I'm asking this because if the new gear is going to be necessary to do packs and the like then the game is gonna lose a ton of casual palyers, me included...
Thought I was abandoning this thread, but I might as well make one more post about dodging.
I'm not suggesting any changes, so this post might be worthless. But I'd like to point out that if you do kill dodging (not quite as hard as this, but still), please make gear suitable for the squishies. Right now, they have no gear whatsoever to support them. It's rather frustrating that my characters with less than 6k health would be rendered useless when I want to run things with them. I can hardly do Vikorin with my DPS due to her poor defense as is; the dodging mechanic keeps her alive.
This also goes for most of the squishy DPSers that are ATs (The Tempest etc). People with 9k+ health at least have the capabilities to run through things if they pop their active defenses and offenses regularly. I only want to point this out because I don't think most people realize just how bad this affects everyone (namely the people who really want this nerf to happen, as it is at that). I do believe Quarry/Evasive Maneuvers/Lead Tempest/Way of the Warrior need a nerf in what dodge they give so Lightning Reflexes becomes a more sensible power choice, but I think gear shouldn't be touched in any way.
__________________________________________________ Find me ingame: @NekoKairi.
Specializing in: twisted biographies. Seriously, run if you see one of my characters IC.
Going to abandon looking at this thread regularly because it doesn't seem like anyone is really getting their voice heard, or at least there is no indication of anybody listening apart from TT (but it isn't like he has any power). Sure, maybe the change is needed - maybe we need to be nerfed, but, the alternative - arguably, the better alternative is being entirely ignored and the number change is just a yellow brick road the devs can use to put Justice gear somewhere really inappropriate, as you'd expect (most likely in a Lockbox, be honest with yourselves).
This method of change is probably going to lose the game more players than it will recover from, nobody wants to adjust again and people like me (which is a small percentage) don't want to spend hours testing again, we are just going to pack up and leave.
I'm going to follow on from Kenpo here:
Enough people find this game challenging as is, there are people who min-max in every game but there are still people that are playing casually, thematically, there are more of those people than min-maxers. It will hurt those kind of players more than it will hurt players like me. Not to mention all of the players who have spent ridiculous amounts of money on Legion gear that will be jacked off by introducing Justice Gear, you are effectively making their efforts to gain that gear redundant by cramming Legion+ into their faces. All of this, I believe it is not the right direction to go in.
My question is this though: if there is going to be a new tier of equipement, will mobs and bosses scaled to lvl 40 be buffed to compensate for it or will they remain at their current power lvls?
Yes to the first part of your question, no to the second as far as we know.
Unfortunately, very few have their alarms go off like you, and question the necessity and agenda behind this move.
The numbers and mechanics are simply as one may suspect, a smokescreen to occupy the minds of those less aware, while pushing for gear replacement.
(Why do you think there's this final big push to drive sales by putting Legion gear in Anniversary lockboxes? It's too transparent...)
It is simply to create another power creep to deliberately move away from the current popular gearing eg. dex, lucky gem, dodge/avoid, to allow for existing players' reinvestment which has gone static after they achieve their gearing goals.
Somewhere down the line, there will be another uproar when justice gear is replaced, and there will again be players who cry foul that none of their build works if they can't do str/ego + con, impact prism, offense/defense.
Perhaps then, players can finally see that these 'balancing' means nothing when the game itself remains unchanged in terms of difficulty, variety, content, nothing to keep justifying all these changes.
I've said before, such changes would be better justified if they intended to add zones and raise level cap, adjust difficulty etc etc.
LR works, that's not the problem and anyone that knows building in this game knows this very well. The problem is that LR is just LR but Quarry/WotW/Night Warrior with Legion Gear is LR plus all of the associated benefits each of those passives grants. LR isn't underperforming, gear along with some other factors, is overperforming.
As to an Invuln-dodge build being destroyed by these changes...have you actually tested this even with the numbers that are there now that are confirmed as not final? I can't imagine anyone who has tested this would even be this vocal about it destroying anything as it doesn't unless a build is nigh-impotent to begin with.
Frankly, some of this stuff is starting to sound like a combination of people that need help making solid builds and some people that want to be unkillable while feigning like that's not the issue.
This. ^
Though I would suggest (as I have previously), that a buff to the base defense that gear gives would be in order. Not "gear that specifically provides defense" but literally the baseline defense that every piece of gear has. And not just Justice gear, but every piece of gear in the game. If "every piece" is too much work, then at least all the Silver Champion Recognition and Nemesis Heirloom gear.
That way, no matter what gear you pick, you get a bit tankier. Immortality comes in defense layers that aren't just damage resistance, so I don't think this will help the high-end builds much (which is good), but it will give ATs and such a bit of extra staying power.
And adding it to the base numbers mean that you get it no matter what mods or gear type you pick. I'd suggest an amount roughly equivalent to about a quarter of the average mitigation you'd get from slotting a dodge mod into avoid gear, with no other dodge powers in place.
And since it's fixed mitigation, you don't end up with the peaks and valleys in incoming damage that dodge gives you.
They also, eventually, need to buff the +HP mods to make them at least somewhat competitive with +Dodge/Avoid or +Defense.
Yes to the first part of your question, no to the second as far as we know.
Unfortunately, very few have their alarms go off like you, and question the necessity and agenda behind this move.
The numbers and mechanics are simply as one may suspect, a smokescreen to occupy the minds of those less aware, while pushing for gear replacement.
(Why do you think there's this final big push to drive sales by putting Legion gear in Anniversary lockboxes? It's too transparent...)
It is simply to create another power creep to deliberately move away from the current popular gearing eg. dex, lucky gem, dodge/avoid, to allow for existing players' reinvestment which has gone static after they achieve their gearing goals.
Somewhere down the line, there will be another uproar when justice gear is replaced, and there will again be players who cry foul that none of their build works if they can't do str/ego + con, impact prism, offense/defense.
Perhaps then, players can finally see that these 'balancing' means nothing when the game itself remains unchanged in terms of difficulty, variety, content, nothing to keep justifying all these changes.
I've said before, such changes would be better justified if they intended to add zones and raise level cap, adjust difficulty etc etc.
I was afraid of that, could they make it so it only affects hard and higher difficulty only? I mean if it's a blanket buff to all bosses and mobs lvl 40 based around gear you have to buy with *real* money.
Then this game should drop the "F2P" or add a small disclamer that reads "pay 2 complete though".
As to an Invuln-dodge build being destroyed by these changes...have you actually tested this even with the numbers that are there now that are confirmed as not final? I can't imagine anyone who has tested this would even be this vocal about it destroying anything as it doesn't unless a build is nigh-impotent to begin with.
Frankly, some of this stuff is starting to sound like a combination of people that need help making solid builds and some people that want to be unkillable while feigning like that's not the issue.
^ Even though for the most part I am against the severity of the changes (from what I have seen on PTS), Kenpo is absolutely correct here, with regard Invuln-dodge, I slammed Black Diamond into the PH simulator and didn't see much difference AT ALL with this level of dodge. However, it did make BCR sort of useless (in the RR advantage sense)
Then again, it is Invuln vs mobs..I haven't had the guts to test vs Super Villains or even other players.
What I am concerned about is my other builds who don't use Invuln...
455(two rank 9 gambler's cores in justice gear) makes 21.3%
520(Rank 1 LR) makes 22.5% Dodge chance.
625(Rank 2 LR) makes 24.1% Dodge chance.
749(Rank 3 LR) Makes 25.9% Dodge chance.
520(Rank 1 LR) + 455(two rank 9 gambler's core in justice gear) makes 28.6% Dodge chance.
749(Rank 3 LR) + 227 (one rank 9 gambler's core in justice gear) makes 28.7% Dodge chance.
Rank 1 Quarry(12.5%) +227(one rank 9 gambler's core in justice gear) makes 29% Dodge chance.
749(Rank 3 LR) + 455 (two rank 9 gambler's cores in justice gear) makes 30.9% Dodge chance.
Rank 2 Quarry(15%) +227(one rank 9 gambler's core in justice gear) makes 31.5% Dodge chance.
Rank 3 Quarry(18%) +455(two rank 9 gambler's cores in justice gear) makes 39.3%
And now something that needs to be changed:
Rank 3 IDF with 1006+118+125 in your stats grants 142 Flat damage reduction.
Rank 3 Invulnerability with 1006+118+125 in your stats grants 97% resistance 186 flat damage reduction
Rank 3 IDF with 1112+234+231 in your stats grants 146 Flat damage reduction.
Rank 3 Invulnerability with 1112+234+231 in your stats grants 112% resistance 194 flat damage reduction
Rank 3 PFF with 1006+118+125 in your stats has a shield with a strength of 11411 and regenerates at 856 every 3 seconds.
Rank 3 Regeneration with 1006+118+125 in your stats is 649 health every 3 seconds.
Rank 3 PFF with 1112+224+231 in your stats has a shield with a strength of 13996 and regenerates at 889 every 3 seconds.
Rank 3 Regeneration with 1112+224+231 in your stats is 670 health every 3 seconds.
Oh, also:
1006 Constitution is 22% defiance.
1112 Constitution is 22% defiance.
1112+224+231 makes Rank 3 Unstoppable have 39 flat damage reduction but it has 195% physical melee 174% all other melee and 89% all other physical damage boost.
Oh and rank 3 quarry has 143% physical 71% non-physical damage boost with 1112+224+231.
455(two rank 9 gambler's cores in justice gear) makes 21.3%
520(Rank 1 LR) makes 22.5% Dodge chance.
625(Rank 2 LR) makes 24.1% Dodge chance.
749(Rank 3 LR) Makes 25.9% Dodge chance.
520(Rank 1 LR) + 455(two rank 9 gambler's core in justice gear) makes 28.6% Dodge chance.
749(Rank 3 LR) + 227 (one rank 9 gambler's core in justice gear) makes 28.7% Dodge chance.
Rank 1 Quarry(12.5%) +227(one rank 9 gambler's core in justice gear) makes 29% Dodge chance.
749(Rank 3 LR) + 455 (two rank 9 gambler's cores in justice gear) makes 30.9% Dodge chance.
Rank 2 Quarry(15%) +227(one rank 9 gambler's core in justice gear) makes 31.5% Dodge chance.
Rank 3 Quarry(18%) +455(two rank 9 gambler's cores in justice gear) makes 39.3%
And now something that needs to be changed:
Rank 3 IDF with 1006+118+125 in your stats grants 142 Flat damage reduction.
Rank 3 Invulnerability with 1006+118+125 in your stats grants 97% resistance 186 flat damage reduction
Rank 3 IDF with 1112+234+231 in your stats grants 146 Flat damage reduction.
Rank 3 Invulnerability with 1112+234+231 in your stats grants 112% resistance 194 flat damage reduction
Rank 3 PFF with 1006+118+125 in your stats has a shield with a strength of 11411 and regenerates at 856 every 3 seconds.
Rank 3 Regeneration with 1006+118+125 in your stats is 649 health every 3 seconds.
Rank 3 PFF with 1112+224+231 in your stats has a shield with a strength of 13996 and regenerates at 889 every 3 seconds.
Rank 3 Regeneration with 1112+224+231 in your stats is 670 health every 3 seconds.
Oh, also:
1006 Constitution is 22% defiance.
1112 Constitution is 22% defiance.
1112+224+231 makes Rank 3 Unstoppable have 39 flat damage reduction but it has 195% physical melee 174% all other melee and 89% all other physical damage boost.
Oh and rank 3 quarry has 143% physical 71% non-physical damage boost with 1112+224+231.
I assume the above is all with Justice Gear? Because if PFF base is going to be 13k...add Compassion form into the mix for obscene numbers, I've tried it and it's stupid, like REALLY stupid.
I think they should seriously re-consider releasing this gear, because it will produce monsters.
I was afraid of that, could they make it so it only affects hard and higher difficulty only? I mean if it's a blanket buff to all bosses and mobs lvl 40 based around gear you have to buy with *real* money.
Then this game should drop the "F2P" or add a small disclamer that reads "pay 2 complete though".
No, you misunderstood. Game difficulty won't be change. In fact, you do not need the new gear to play, nor care about these nerfs.
A lot of the discussion here can be confusing for a new player.
Apparently, it's also confusing for some veterans because they knowingly state the power creep arisen since on-alert when content didn't change to match up (how many times someone has claimed the game too easy in this thread?), yet support changes that target limited mechanics which miss the root of the problem and the power creep still remains.
I assure you, I won't be the only person that continue to play powerful and effective builds after these changes. Dodge is merely a convenience, it simply makes gameplay more forgiving and lazy, which makes it easier for you to enjoy sub-optimal thematic builds, which you can more freely customise.
As far as survivability goes, you don't even need to gear for dodge. Devs, please just go ahead and nerf INT and CD Redux.
PFF would no longer be viable because it already lacks damage mitigation, the shields just will not hold up without some extra dodge/avoidence to help mitigate damage. LR has already been gimped as this thread shows and just as well be ignored entirely, it's the new pre-pff buff pff; your actually weaker then someone using an offensive passive for using it. PFF's shields used to ALWAYS take full 100% damage no matter what your gear was and didn't benefit at all from blocking like it does now, it was no better then having an offensive passive but without the damage buff. Now LR is being shoved into that position.
Again this is an awful change.
This change affecting PFF alone would cause me to quit the game, PFF itself relies solely on dodge/avoid to behave like a normal defensive passive, I've argued this point SO many times on forums, only a few people seemed to understand.
I personally have put too much effort into making PFF work, to stand by and watch a nerf like this be considered as a "right thing to do".
As I posted earlier on LIVE I build around PFF to make it work and stick around long enough, I don't have to do that for anything else, and then there is VIPER...
Now, with PFF 1006+118+125 stats and at least 100% resistance to all damage my effective health would be 77846(just from resistance not including dodges flat damage reduction nor my pff's regen) With 8 stacks of my 6.7% each compassion my pff would only be 14813.
With PFF 1112+224+231 and 8 stacks of 10% compassion my pff would be 20104 making my total effective hp 95648 if I had at least 100% resistance to all damage. With 22% Defiance, same hp as the pff and at least 100% resistance from off-passive my effective hp would be 92030.4
But pff only shields from 90% of the damage and we all know what 10% of 100000 and my defiance would have a 257 energy gain every time I gained a stack.
Maybe I should put a disclaimer here...
[You'd be a Hp-Sack, you wouldn't deal any considerable damage...though since critstrike and dex are getting a bit of a nerf and considering the fact that there is no diminishing returns for con-stacking the polar opposite of you wouldn't be as effective at their job as you are at yours so..good for you!]
Oh and uhh, just in case you are wondering what the job of a hp-sack is it is to be a hp-sack. Redundant, yes, but you were wondering what it was so...your fault.
Honestly.. you can have a chrachter that's able to run almost all the content in the game 1-40, just by using the crappy gear that drops for free from mobs. Nobody needs heroic, legendary, or other gear just to play.
Precisely, unless the build is poorly put together to begin with. For anyone that's running Invuln for example, there should be no need to put a second layer of defense on top of that for game content. The only reason I can think of is trying to be a 'supertank' in PvP because none of the PvE content warrants that. PvE just doesn't hit that hard to someone using any defensive passive not even when set to the highest difficulty. Now someone using an Offensive Passive can sort of make a case for needing more defense.
No, you misunderstood. Game difficulty won't be change. In fact, you do not need the new gear to play, nor care about these nerfs.
A lot of the discussion here can be confusing for a new player.
Apparently, it's also confusing for some veterans because they knowingly state the power creep arisen since on-alert when content didn't change to match up (how many times someone has claimed the game too easy in this thread?), yet support changes that target limited mechanics which miss the root of the problem and the power creep still remains.
I assure you, I won't be the only person that continue to play powerful and effective builds after these changes. Dodge is merely a convenience, it simply makes gameplay more forgiving and lazy, which makes it easier for you to enjoy sub-optimal thematic builds, which you can more freely customise.
As far as survivability goes, you don't even need to gear for dodge. Devs, please just go ahead and nerf INT and CD Redux.
Oh I see, thank God!
I just love my character and it would just suck to be useless at end content because I didn't spend enough to be viable.
I still think that breaking something and then selling the "fix" in the same patch is well, kinda of a douchey move.
Besides, if it allows more sub-optimal builds to be viable then keep it as is, min maxers will always find the top build and roll with it, if it isn't dodge it'll be something else.
The only thing this will acheive is making some fun builds unplayable, that can't be good for anyone.
...But I'd like to point out that if you do kill dodging (not quite as hard as this, but still), please make gear suitable for the squishies. Right now, they have no gear whatsoever to support them. It's rather frustrating that my characters with less than 6k health would be rendered useless when I want to run things with them. I can hardly do Vikorin with my DPS due to her poor defense as is; the dodging mechanic keeps her alive.
This also goes for most of the squishy DPSers that are ATs (The Tempest etc). People with 9k+ health at least have the capabilities to run through things if they pop their active defenses and offenses regularly. I only want to point this out because I don't think most people realize just how bad this affects everyone (namely the people who really want this nerf to happen, as it is at that). I do believe Quarry/Evasive Maneuvers/Lead Tempest/Way of the Warrior need a nerf in what dodge they give so Lightning Reflexes becomes a more sensible power choice, but I think gear shouldn't be touched in any way.
I think that's more indicative of mob power creep, base hp not being high enough given the new power levels (of both player and mobs) and CON probably scaling too well or at least not enough other good sources of +hp.
So on live I would wager the majority of characters at level 40 in heroic/legion gear have a dodge/avoidance primary. It is simply the best regardless of build. Running a heavy resistance build? Add dodge for layered defenses! Running a dodge build? Slot a dodge/avoid primary defense to dodge noticeably more often! Running a supporty or offense build without any other passive defenses to speak of? Add in that dodge/avoid primary for an average of ~20% or more actual damage reduction on top of defense resistance rating! In my eyes, that is a bad thing. The other defensive primaries should be just as good, if not better in certain circumstances.
Note: I think the current PTS dodge changes have gone too far with regards to the dodge ratings. I also think all the current flat dodge bonuses should be converted to ratings.
I think that's more indicative of mob power creep, base hp not being high enough given the new power levels (of both player and mobs) and CON probably scaling too well or at least not enough other good sources of +hp.
So on live I would wager the majority of characters at level 40 in heroic/legion gear have a dodge/avoidance primary. It is simply the best regardless of build. Running a heavy resistance build? Add dodge for layered defenses! Running a dodge build? Slot a dodge/avoid primary defense to dodge noticeably more often! Running a supporty or offense build without any other passive defenses to speak of? Add in that dodge/avoid primary for an average of ~20% or more actual damage reduction on top of defense resistance rating! In my eyes, that is a bad thing. The other defensive primaries should be just as good, if not better in certain circumstances.
Note: I think the current PTS dodge changes have gone too far with regards to the dodge ratings. I also think all the current flat dodge bonuses should be converted to ratings.
I have no complaints messing with my Quarry users with 10k+ HP. I do have a tank that doesn't use dodge as a means of defense, too; just blocking has her survive Gravi's yellows (12k HP). That was just more directed at the ATs/people that minmax and really like their current damage, since there's really no way around that.
__________________________________________________ Find me ingame: @NekoKairi.
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Even though this won't effect me directly... what happens to AT's that use dodge?
Is there someone out there that can give useful numbers in the PTS for them?
Forgive me if this has already been done. (Have not looked through entire thread)
Precisely, unless the build is poorly put together to begin with. For anyone that's running Invuln for example, there should be no need to put a second layer of defense on top of that for game content. The only reason I can think of is trying to be a 'supertank' in PvP because none of the PvE content warrants that. PvE just doesn't hit that hard to someone using any defensive passive not even when set to the highest difficulty. Now someone using an Offensive Passive can sort of make a case for needing more defense.
If it's PvP related then I guess I understand a little more. I really don't pvp, I have no real patience for it. Plus I don't like having to spend time and effort on gearing up for it. I do understand that if dodge/avoidance/Crit was providing people with the PvP experience they wanted, why some would be upset with this proposal of changes.
Offensive passive builds were viable before dodge became ubiquitous. Why were they viable then, but won't be now ? Even without dodge offensive passive builds now will be more powerful than they were before.
Offensive passive builds were viable before dodge became ubiquitous. Why were they viable then, but won't be now ? Even without dodge offensive passive builds now will be more powerful than they were before.
You have to look at the bigger picture.
I've run offensive passives since I started. However, there is a huge performance gap when you factor in active defenses and heals.
You can't simply state it worked before, they'll be fine because so much has changed. Pre-alert, I often couldn't bother with critical chance/sev on a majority of ATs because I couldn't afford the dex/ego investment short of someone like a soldier who had at least one of them as a superstat.
Utility gear was given cost/cd redux in order to open up more options other than INT.
We lost 3 secondary slots, but were given stats like critical strike and increased dodge/avoid to compensate.
Self-healing plays a far bigger role in difficulty than dodge/avoid. When I first started, one of my first big purchases as a silver was a become black talon 2, simply for the sake of having a means of self-healing when fighting something I couldn't simply kill faster before it killed me.
Scapegoating dodge/avoid fails to address the real problems as far as balance goes. But I bet if healing by roles were reduced significantly, all you lifers who've relied on them would be singing a different tune, yet self-healing has far more of an impact on survival than a heroic bp of agility.
And as for LR in its current state, I would say it under-performs. Let's use warlord mobs for example. Invul will simply survive longer under more fire simply because of how they mitigate damage if we take heals out of the equation.
Now, if we take LR, use EM for dodge buffs and bcr, then its a lot more even keel, but at that rate invul will do even better given the same crutch powers.
Defiance may not offer the same mitigation as invul, but it also provides energy and does not require 4 adv points to hit full effectiveness.
Been running a non dodge offensive passive electric in the Mega D fest, survival is a bit hit and miss but I have indeed stayed upright for the whole event at least...... twice.
Coupla things that interest me how exactly the new offence works and will the new gear have breastplate of defence option?
For what it's worth.. Justice gear vs Silver Recog gear R5s in every slot
On live circa 260 offence gives 33% bonus
On PTS 400+ offence gives 13% bonus
Crit severity is up slightly, crit prob is down to 37% from 43 I think. Crits now get to 3.7k with Lightning Arc up from 2.8k on live so an improvement due perhaps to better offence and the severity bonus from the stat tree due to higher stats.
Kinda ironic that they wanna nerf dodge/avoidance but I don't have the option to get a BP of defence (to twin with best defence) so what else you gonna buy? Dodge is up to 18% from it's original 10% with my new BP of cliche.
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
the reason people are upset is some passives will be devastated by these changes, unless the passives themselves are buffed up along with the changes. (PFF, LR, many offensive passives)
With the unspoken assumption that the unless clause won't come to pass. Take a deep breath and stop panicking.
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That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
Comments
They are protected by the ToS meaning that you can go ahead and chargeback but they can and will deny you and possibly your bank account anymore charges in the future as well as remove you from their games.
Edit: Just got through looking for it in the ToS:
17. Fees
-Blahblahblahblahblah-
"If you claim a chargeback for any reason, we have the right to investigate and dispute such chargeback. If we believe that your chargeback requirement is spurious, unreasonable, or invalid, we may take the dispute to court. If your chargeback is deemed invalid, you agree to pay for all fees and costs resulting from the disputed chargeback, including but is not limited to legal fees and expenses, damages, monies lost due to non-operation, and chargeback fees."
-Blahblahblahblah-
And then 19. has the account termination clause.
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I implore you to not chargeback and just take it as a loss and move on. Do not dispute any claims for it will only lead you to trouble. Their legal teams will leave you in financial ruin and will bury you in counter claims. There is no David vs Goliath when facing corporations there is only Goliath vs Goliath and any Davids will be squashed and swept out and away from even the light of our one-sided media.
Class-action lawsuits only make lawyers rich.
It gives me no joy, and the thought of the friends I would lose is terrifying for me personally. More than I would ever readily admit.
But principle is principle.
Pwe's legal teams? Vs BofA? Umm......ok sure. Sounds better than the the Hulk v Spiderman debates in zone.
But seriously no. PWE has been through this due to currency devaluation in other venues. I'm not sure where your david-goliath stuff comes from, it implies there is no precedent and that both partners are equal in terms of strength.
Class action? Sure I wanna sign up and get 8 bucks 25 years from now when I will barely remember what is we were squabbling about.
Sorry, just no. I will leave you to say whatever but any savvy customer or someone who is in possesion of common sense simply and frankly knows betterand will consult outside sources.
I've been saving this one:
In my opinion, Removing mods within Justice gear costs way too much questionite. At 14k+ a pop at level 40.
The new gear is totally crazy, does anyone know how defensive people can be with strength primary now? I tested the gear with all r5 cores and the change from my legions with r7 was immense. I do wonder how exactly you are expecting to implement this gear.
Also people don't be stupid in thinking that they'll allow people to trade in legions to get this new gear, if that was the case everyone could trade in legions of freedom for justice of speed (which is BY FAR the most over powered piece) I managed to get conviction to 2 seconds with r5 cores and active's to 30 seconds. I also managed to get smoke grenade and evasive to 5 seconds. What does this mean?
WELL PvP wise these skills are going to be even more valuable but this change isn't for PvP. PvE wise I see that if you get a rank 3 EM you're going to be able to keep up 2 stacks of it pretty much 24/7. This will allow you to get to about 60% dodge chance without having a dodge passive. NOW if you REALLY WANT to be able to work with a LR toon this is what you are going to be able to do. You need to get justice of speed and certainly not care about dodge from gear so much then you want to get evasive maneuvers and spam away.
People certainly from this point need to stop complaining about dodge, it isn't that bad at all if you get the new gear. The problem I have is the gap between this gear and legions and I am worrying about how they are planning to add it. If it is going to be a lockbox then those keys are going to be selling like crazy to get all the new set as soon as possible. ALTHOUGH I do warn you cryptic, if you do this you will have MANY players leave the game. People will not be happy that they have had to pay for legions from keys for all this time just to find they need to buy more keys after maxing their legions just to get the all new gear, this is not the way to do it. Now I don't really care if people paid to get legions, that isn't the problem the problem is if this new gear is through the thing legions once was.
I suppose the best thing you could do is start off by giving it out through something such as tokens and if you really must put it into a lockbox wait a while before doing so. This will allow people who want to farm to get the gear and then after a while people who didn't farm for the gear and wont do it can then start getting it in lockboxes so to trade it around. I really don't know how you are going to be able to add this gear without anyone complaining and leaving though.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Well than continue helping the playerbase and forget what I said.
My chargeback situation is mine and mine alone.
Indeed. At least the time you have spent here was enjoyable enough to spend hard-earned money, no?
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On Live the highest hp one could possibly have is 23386(with no stims). With the new gear it will extend it to 28422(with no stims). With a stim you can get 31166 hp using the new gear.
I did a bit of defense stacking and got it to around 720 which is 167% resistance to all damage. The highest defense I've gotten on live would be 615.4 Defense which grants 145% resistance to all damage and I really wasn't trying to 'max' either.
You can take a potshot at Ashen and be dead wrong as you are now but I'll let him handle his own business.
As to what he said about LR underperforming and what you're saying. I've taken LR builds solo through the Powerhouse set to 5 man hard and leveled through the entire game solo with no healing powers, no healing advantages, no healing specializations and no healing items. At one point I had videos of this up on my youtube channel which is what Ashen is referencing. LR works, that's not the problem and anyone that knows building in this game knows this very well. The problem is that LR is just LR but Quarry/WotW/Night Warrior with Legion Gear is LR plus all of the associated benefits each of those passives grants. LR isn't underperforming, gear along with some other factors, is overperforming.
As to an Invuln-dodge build being destroyed by these changes...have you actually tested this even with the numbers that are there now that are confirmed as not final? I can't imagine anyone who has tested this would even be this vocal about it destroying anything as it doesn't unless a build is nigh-impotent to begin with.
Frankly, some of this stuff is starting to sound like a combination of people that need help making solid builds and some people that want to be unkillable while feigning like that's not the issue.
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I want your build(s) if that's OK with you. I want to see exactly what's happening.
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How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
For my lvl 40's I like to be able to contribute to the team when it comes to doing Dailies and not be trivialized by certain builds, I cannot change the fact it's Human nature to aggrandize and a tendency to gain advantages over others and such but their needs to be balancing and fixes to this game, rather then what seems like another marketing scheme, oh Humanity & Money, what a atrocious construct, you delude true value for profit then fun/stability which is a fundamental aspect of gaming but that's my perspective.
Hope that is articulate, I cannot find myself enjoying something that is or will be further corrupted, I hope you can make it work, I also never got a chance to enjoy PvP.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
Honestly.. you can have a chrachter that's able to run almost all the content in the game 1-40, just by using the crappy gear that drops for free from mobs. Nobody needs heroic, legendary, or other gear just to play. I know I've done it several times.
The one thing about this game is that most mobs are easy. I get that people are upset, but when people say their character is "weak" without the gear, I cringe. The game has obviously been designed that even the most casual players can run it without needing to gear up.
Because they havn't adjusted the difficulty to accomidate for Post OnAlert Update? what is the difference between Difficult and Normal anyway?
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
This isn't a gear centric game, I don't think it was ever intended to be a MMO where you chase the new shinny gear every level.
That's one of the things I like about it.
The gameplay is about your choices, and there are a dozen or more paths to an effective character. God knows that's why I have so many alts.
See here? That's me, number 7 and I kinda stopped counting my non-40's
I've played virtually every type of character you care to name from 1 to 40, possibly multiple times.
That's a ton of replay value that I wouldn't do if it was necessary to gear the whole lot of the poor toons .
I know I've played WoW and like games almost as much and the gearing thing was a big turn off.
Making this game gear centric is an understandable mistake.
Every other MMO does it, Every other MMO does the trinity, the classes and the forced theme/style power choices.
Champions Online is different in every way from those.
Is different automatically better? No. Is it automatically worse? Also No. There are only a few Superhero MMO's out there and the ones that are more successful [that still live, via con queso CoX] have a big name license.
So what makes CO stand out? Unparalleled choice. Nealy limitless possibilities. Just like it's game styles spiritual and lore's literal origin.
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I'm a new player (about a month or so) I have a mind lvl 23 and a grimoire lvl 39 (will be 40 by tonight). I got for both the "lvl as you do" questionite gear by doing alerts and Destroid event, so far save Gravitar who 2 shots me (I'm getting heroic just to beat her with less deaths, witch insulted my costume!) and Luther Black who is tricky as all Hell (4 chests is the best I have achieved) I haven't faced anything that says "well my gear is absolute crap, I should stop playing".
As a casual player these changes don't really bother me, but for those who do PvP, harder end content and grinded to get their builds to where they are are now I understand their ire.
My question is this though: if there is going to be a new tier of equipement, will mobs and bosses scaled to lvl 40 be buffed to compensate for it or will they remain at their current power lvls? I'm asking this because if the new gear is going to be necessary to do packs and the like then the game is gonna lose a ton of casual palyers, me included...
I'm not suggesting any changes, so this post might be worthless. But I'd like to point out that if you do kill dodging (not quite as hard as this, but still), please make gear suitable for the squishies. Right now, they have no gear whatsoever to support them. It's rather frustrating that my characters with less than 6k health would be rendered useless when I want to run things with them. I can hardly do Vikorin with my DPS due to her poor defense as is; the dodging mechanic keeps her alive.
This also goes for most of the squishy DPSers that are ATs (The Tempest etc). People with 9k+ health at least have the capabilities to run through things if they pop their active defenses and offenses regularly. I only want to point this out because I don't think most people realize just how bad this affects everyone (namely the people who really want this nerf to happen, as it is at that). I do believe Quarry/Evasive Maneuvers/Lead Tempest/Way of the Warrior need a nerf in what dodge they give so Lightning Reflexes becomes a more sensible power choice, but I think gear shouldn't be touched in any way.
Find me ingame: @NekoKairi.
Specializing in: twisted biographies. Seriously, run if you see one of my characters IC.
This method of change is probably going to lose the game more players than it will recover from, nobody wants to adjust again and people like me (which is a small percentage) don't want to spend hours testing again, we are just going to pack up and leave.
I'm going to follow on from Kenpo here:
Enough people find this game challenging as is, there are people who min-max in every game but there are still people that are playing casually, thematically, there are more of those people than min-maxers. It will hurt those kind of players more than it will hurt players like me. Not to mention all of the players who have spent ridiculous amounts of money on Legion gear that will be jacked off by introducing Justice Gear, you are effectively making their efforts to gain that gear redundant by cramming Legion+ into their faces. All of this, I believe it is not the right direction to go in.
Just my two cents,
Peace.
@Pyrolun
Edit:
This is the thread theme song
It's a link.
Yes to the first part of your question, no to the second as far as we know.
Unfortunately, very few have their alarms go off like you, and question the necessity and agenda behind this move.
The numbers and mechanics are simply as one may suspect, a smokescreen to occupy the minds of those less aware, while pushing for gear replacement.
(Why do you think there's this final big push to drive sales by putting Legion gear in Anniversary lockboxes? It's too transparent...)
It is simply to create another power creep to deliberately move away from the current popular gearing eg. dex, lucky gem, dodge/avoid, to allow for existing players' reinvestment which has gone static after they achieve their gearing goals.
Somewhere down the line, there will be another uproar when justice gear is replaced, and there will again be players who cry foul that none of their build works if they can't do str/ego + con, impact prism, offense/defense.
Perhaps then, players can finally see that these 'balancing' means nothing when the game itself remains unchanged in terms of difficulty, variety, content, nothing to keep justifying all these changes.
I've said before, such changes would be better justified if they intended to add zones and raise level cap, adjust difficulty etc etc.
It is so obvious it isn't even a conspiracy theory.
This is what I would love to see, and that is the better alternative; but such is not evident and is highly unlikely.
This. ^
Though I would suggest (as I have previously), that a buff to the base defense that gear gives would be in order. Not "gear that specifically provides defense" but literally the baseline defense that every piece of gear has. And not just Justice gear, but every piece of gear in the game. If "every piece" is too much work, then at least all the Silver Champion Recognition and Nemesis Heirloom gear.
That way, no matter what gear you pick, you get a bit tankier. Immortality comes in defense layers that aren't just damage resistance, so I don't think this will help the high-end builds much (which is good), but it will give ATs and such a bit of extra staying power.
And adding it to the base numbers mean that you get it no matter what mods or gear type you pick. I'd suggest an amount roughly equivalent to about a quarter of the average mitigation you'd get from slotting a dodge mod into avoid gear, with no other dodge powers in place.
And since it's fixed mitigation, you don't end up with the peaks and valleys in incoming damage that dodge gives you.
They also, eventually, need to buff the +HP mods to make them at least somewhat competitive with +Dodge/Avoid or +Defense.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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I was afraid of that, could they make it so it only affects hard and higher difficulty only? I mean if it's a blanket buff to all bosses and mobs lvl 40 based around gear you have to buy with *real* money.
Then this game should drop the "F2P" or add a small disclamer that reads "pay 2 complete though".
^ Even though for the most part I am against the severity of the changes (from what I have seen on PTS), Kenpo is absolutely correct here, with regard Invuln-dodge, I slammed Black Diamond into the PH simulator and didn't see much difference AT ALL with this level of dodge. However, it did make BCR sort of useless (in the RR advantage sense)
Then again, it is Invuln vs mobs..I haven't had the guts to test vs Super Villains or even other players.
What I am concerned about is my other builds who don't use Invuln...
Anyway,
*waits for correct numbers to hit PTS*
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455(two rank 9 gambler's cores in justice gear) makes 21.3%
520(Rank 1 LR) makes 22.5% Dodge chance.
625(Rank 2 LR) makes 24.1% Dodge chance.
749(Rank 3 LR) Makes 25.9% Dodge chance.
520(Rank 1 LR) + 455(two rank 9 gambler's core in justice gear) makes 28.6% Dodge chance.
749(Rank 3 LR) + 227 (one rank 9 gambler's core in justice gear) makes 28.7% Dodge chance.
Rank 1 Quarry(12.5%) +227(one rank 9 gambler's core in justice gear) makes 29% Dodge chance.
749(Rank 3 LR) + 455 (two rank 9 gambler's cores in justice gear) makes 30.9% Dodge chance.
Rank 2 Quarry(15%) +227(one rank 9 gambler's core in justice gear) makes 31.5% Dodge chance.
Rank 3 Quarry(18%) +455(two rank 9 gambler's cores in justice gear) makes 39.3%
And now something that needs to be changed:
Rank 3 IDF with 1006+118+125 in your stats grants 142 Flat damage reduction.
Rank 3 Invulnerability with 1006+118+125 in your stats grants 97% resistance 186 flat damage reduction
Rank 3 IDF with 1112+234+231 in your stats grants 146 Flat damage reduction.
Rank 3 Invulnerability with 1112+234+231 in your stats grants 112% resistance 194 flat damage reduction
Rank 3 PFF with 1006+118+125 in your stats has a shield with a strength of 11411 and regenerates at 856 every 3 seconds.
Rank 3 Regeneration with 1006+118+125 in your stats is 649 health every 3 seconds.
Rank 3 PFF with 1112+224+231 in your stats has a shield with a strength of 13996 and regenerates at 889 every 3 seconds.
Rank 3 Regeneration with 1112+224+231 in your stats is 670 health every 3 seconds.
Oh, also:
1006 Constitution is 22% defiance.
1112 Constitution is 22% defiance.
1112+224+231 makes Rank 3 Unstoppable have 39 flat damage reduction but it has 195% physical melee 174% all other melee and 89% all other physical damage boost.
Oh and rank 3 quarry has 143% physical 71% non-physical damage boost with 1112+224+231.
I assume the above is all with Justice Gear? Because if PFF base is going to be 13k...add Compassion form into the mix for obscene numbers, I've tried it and it's stupid, like REALLY stupid.
I think they should seriously re-consider releasing this gear, because it will produce monsters.
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A lot of the discussion here can be confusing for a new player.
Apparently, it's also confusing for some veterans because they knowingly state the power creep arisen since on-alert when content didn't change to match up (how many times someone has claimed the game too easy in this thread?), yet support changes that target limited mechanics which miss the root of the problem and the power creep still remains.
I assure you, I won't be the only person that continue to play powerful and effective builds after these changes. Dodge is merely a convenience, it simply makes gameplay more forgiving and lazy, which makes it easier for you to enjoy sub-optimal thematic builds, which you can more freely customise.
As far as survivability goes, you don't even need to gear for dodge. Devs, please just go ahead and nerf INT and CD Redux.
This change affecting PFF alone would cause me to quit the game, PFF itself relies solely on dodge/avoid to behave like a normal defensive passive, I've argued this point SO many times on forums, only a few people seemed to understand.
I personally have put too much effort into making PFF work, to stand by and watch a nerf like this be considered as a "right thing to do".
As I posted earlier on LIVE I build around PFF to make it work and stick around long enough, I don't have to do that for anything else, and then there is VIPER...
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Now, with PFF 1006+118+125 stats and at least 100% resistance to all damage my effective health would be 77846(just from resistance not including dodges flat damage reduction nor my pff's regen) With 8 stacks of my 6.7% each compassion my pff would only be 14813.
With PFF 1112+224+231 and 8 stacks of 10% compassion my pff would be 20104 making my total effective hp 95648 if I had at least 100% resistance to all damage. With 22% Defiance, same hp as the pff and at least 100% resistance from off-passive my effective hp would be 92030.4
But pff only shields from 90% of the damage and we all know what 10% of 100000 and my defiance would have a 257 energy gain every time I gained a stack.
Maybe I should put a disclaimer here...
[You'd be a Hp-Sack, you wouldn't deal any considerable damage...though since critstrike and dex are getting a bit of a nerf and considering the fact that there is no diminishing returns for con-stacking the polar opposite of you wouldn't be as effective at their job as you are at yours so..good for you!]
Oh and uhh, just in case you are wondering what the job of a hp-sack is it is to be a hp-sack. Redundant, yes, but you were wondering what it was so...your fault.
Precisely, unless the build is poorly put together to begin with. For anyone that's running Invuln for example, there should be no need to put a second layer of defense on top of that for game content. The only reason I can think of is trying to be a 'supertank' in PvP because none of the PvE content warrants that. PvE just doesn't hit that hard to someone using any defensive passive not even when set to the highest difficulty. Now someone using an Offensive Passive can sort of make a case for needing more defense.
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Oh I see, thank God!
I just love my character and it would just suck to be useless at end content because I didn't spend enough to be viable.
I still think that breaking something and then selling the "fix" in the same patch is well, kinda of a douchey move.
Besides, if it allows more sub-optimal builds to be viable then keep it as is, min maxers will always find the top build and roll with it, if it isn't dodge it'll be something else.
The only thing this will acheive is making some fun builds unplayable, that can't be good for anyone.
I think that's more indicative of mob power creep, base hp not being high enough given the new power levels (of both player and mobs) and CON probably scaling too well or at least not enough other good sources of +hp.
So on live I would wager the majority of characters at level 40 in heroic/legion gear have a dodge/avoidance primary. It is simply the best regardless of build. Running a heavy resistance build? Add dodge for layered defenses! Running a dodge build? Slot a dodge/avoid primary defense to dodge noticeably more often! Running a supporty or offense build without any other passive defenses to speak of? Add in that dodge/avoid primary for an average of ~20% or more actual damage reduction on top of defense resistance rating! In my eyes, that is a bad thing. The other defensive primaries should be just as good, if not better in certain circumstances.
Note: I think the current PTS dodge changes have gone too far with regards to the dodge ratings. I also think all the current flat dodge bonuses should be converted to ratings.
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Even though this won't effect me directly... what happens to AT's that use dodge?
Is there someone out there that can give useful numbers in the PTS for them?
Forgive me if this has already been done. (Have not looked through entire thread)
If it's PvP related then I guess I understand a little more. I really don't pvp, I have no real patience for it. Plus I don't like having to spend time and effort on gearing up for it. I do understand that if dodge/avoidance/Crit was providing people with the PvP experience they wanted, why some would be upset with this proposal of changes.
Offensive passive builds were viable before dodge became ubiquitous. Why were they viable then, but won't be now ? Even without dodge offensive passive builds now will be more powerful than they were before.
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You have to look at the bigger picture.
I've run offensive passives since I started. However, there is a huge performance gap when you factor in active defenses and heals.
You can't simply state it worked before, they'll be fine because so much has changed. Pre-alert, I often couldn't bother with critical chance/sev on a majority of ATs because I couldn't afford the dex/ego investment short of someone like a soldier who had at least one of them as a superstat.
Utility gear was given cost/cd redux in order to open up more options other than INT.
We lost 3 secondary slots, but were given stats like critical strike and increased dodge/avoid to compensate.
Self-healing plays a far bigger role in difficulty than dodge/avoid. When I first started, one of my first big purchases as a silver was a become black talon 2, simply for the sake of having a means of self-healing when fighting something I couldn't simply kill faster before it killed me.
Scapegoating dodge/avoid fails to address the real problems as far as balance goes. But I bet if healing by roles were reduced significantly, all you lifers who've relied on them would be singing a different tune, yet self-healing has far more of an impact on survival than a heroic bp of agility.
And as for LR in its current state, I would say it under-performs. Let's use warlord mobs for example. Invul will simply survive longer under more fire simply because of how they mitigate damage if we take heals out of the equation.
Now, if we take LR, use EM for dodge buffs and bcr, then its a lot more even keel, but at that rate invul will do even better given the same crutch powers.
Defiance may not offer the same mitigation as invul, but it also provides energy and does not require 4 adv points to hit full effectiveness.
Coupla things that interest me how exactly the new offence works and will the new gear have breastplate of defence option?
For what it's worth.. Justice gear vs Silver Recog gear R5s in every slot
On live circa 260 offence gives 33% bonus
On PTS 400+ offence gives 13% bonus
Crit severity is up slightly, crit prob is down to 37% from 43 I think. Crits now get to 3.7k with Lightning Arc up from 2.8k on live so an improvement due perhaps to better offence and the severity bonus from the stat tree due to higher stats.
Kinda ironic that they wanna nerf dodge/avoidance but I don't have the option to get a BP of defence (to twin with best defence) so what else you gonna buy? Dodge is up to 18% from it's original 10% with my new BP of cliche.
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