This seems like a dramatic over-nerf. Getting Dodge chances in the 40s to 50s should be possible at high investment, to allow some semblance of reliability in defenses. Higher than that, maybe not. But if overall mitigation numbers are the problem, adjust the way Avoidance works. Nerfing Dodge rates to the ground makes using it as a defense extremely un-fun.
Then why not make avoidance FOR DODGE PASSIVES equate to 100%?
Decrease methods powers, mods, etc, for incorporating dodge?
This way, if a dodge passive avatar does indeed dodge? Its a true miss for incoming attacks instead of a mitigating hit, like it is now?
Everyone who is not using a dodge passive? Well, they get screwed simply. Lower their ability to use high amounts of dodge/avoidance.
Let's be candid, its very hard to layer methods of invulnerability and defiance atop LR/WoTW/NW/Quarry, but you can slap dodge/avoidance atop Invulnerability, PFF, Defiance and AoPM.
Basically, if you aren't a dodge passive, you shouldn't be able to get high levels of dodge, cause that's not your main defensive/offensive ability. Why screw over people when its their main mechanic?
With the Off/Def vs Dodge/Crit becoming more balanced this will change how a lot of builds have to function, obviously. Something to think about though, is how this effects Healing. What are the 2 most common Heals taken in the game today? BCR(which is only good with High Dodge) and CONVICTION(which is only good with High Crit Chance.) So for the builds that are no longer Dodge/Crit based, where do they go for heals?
The obvious choice is Bionic Shielding, but the FX is very thematically heavy and not something I would want to take on a lot of my non tech characters. There are the telepathy heals, but those are pretty heavily thematic as well. BCR and Conviction had minimal FX(for the most part) and allowed you to apply quickly.
So what I'd like to see happen is this...
NEW CLICK HEAL
This Heal applies a Heal Over Time effect on you(just like BCR.) The heal scales with your Offense or Defense Stat(much like Resurgence scales with CON), whichever is higher(Or Scales with CON if OFF/DEF scaling won't work for any reason.) Has very minimal FX(or None at all) so that it is able to work for a LARGE amount of Thematic Builds.
*Notes: Endorphin Rush might need to be removed from Enrage altogether, because this new Heal would basically replace it while allowing it to be much more forgiving towards build diversity.
that is false. some people have 2 mechanics equally sharing a spot. many concepts (10 of my 40 characters) have both high agility and either increased accuracy, regeneration, or resistance to injury BOTH as key concept tenets.
this is not because I wanted to make them unkillable. its because they are superheroes. and its the concept they have as such.
I have a concept of a super heavily armoured battlesuit that basically brick walls everything with guns and lasers.
So, your words here, are basically saying that it's alright that my super heavy battlesuit that incorporates no dodge but has all other forms of defense, on a tank oriented build, should be surpassed by a person with an offensive passive and two mod slots in the 'how much damage can I survive' compartment due to the fact that dodge cuts out entire sections of damage repeatedly. But that's 'in theme' and 'concept'.
lol. I didnt say my concept should surpass yours. I meant it should also be allowed to work just as well.
And yet, it DOES surpass mine. You have easily as much defensive capability utilizing dodge since it's so bloody easy to get, as well as having a much higher offensive ability.
Let's be candid, its very hard to layer methods of invulnerability and defiance atop LR/WoTW/NW/Quarry, but you can slap dodge/avoidance atop Invulnerability, PFF, Defiance and AoPM.
Please run PFF at level 40 without any dodge/avoid gear. No Compassion Form.
The issue is that -SOME- powers have such poor mechanics that due to their design that reliance on Dodge/Avoid to survive has become an actual defense mechanic rather than an added bonus. There are certain powers in game which flat out do not work against certain foes, whilst these foes are not in the majority they are classed as "end game or higher level content" if I as a Crowd Control user am reduced to debuffing foes in higher level instances, my level of usefulness is already cut by at -least- 80% since my primary intention of my build does not function.
Therefore I rely on debuffing and low damage to contribute as well as passive healing for all. If I am consistently face planting what exactly am I contributing to the team? In the main, at least for me, dodge reduces the chance of this happening to me, allowing me to contribute more and survive longer.
If this shouldn't be the case then this means I am suffering for pursuing a certain theme because the mechanics in place do not allow me to actively participate in higher level content in my desired way, making me an under equipped debuffer and a very bad healer.
Basically, if you aren't a dodge passive, you shouldn't be able to get high levels of dodge, cause that's not your main defensive/offensive ability. Why screw over people when its their main mechanic?
Again, go and run Personal Force Field (PFF) without dodge/avoid or Compassion Form. I have slaved away trying combinations of powers to make that particular passive to behave like a defensive passive. I was VERY reluctant to even touch dodge/avoid when I first started out, convinced that Defense would save me. Under persuasion I tried dodge and my god, PFF's survival increased so much it could almost be called a Defensive Passive, instead of a Defend-Your-Passive Power.
The issue there is again power mechanics. If everyone is looking at this from a PvP vs Concept or "balance" view point, the impact that it will have on other less conventional builds as opposed to Quarry/2GM/ER etc will be significant enough to remove the viability of a number of builds and concepts.
My issue with such a proposed change is simple:
- How will it affect EVERYTHING?
Without proper values to deal with regarding dodge, I cannot make a solid basis for an argument regarding this.
I am just hopeful that the feedback given is taken into consideration, so that a place is reached where dodge stacking isn't insane aka over 100% dodge and dodge isn't so crippled a number of builds which use a mixture of defense and dodge are not left entirely useless.
Now if they were proposing this change in addition to large scale changes to the way defense, damage mitigation and passive resistances and power mechanics... that would be another story entirely. Because (IMO) some mechanics and powers are generally "behind" the norm for CO builds they are forgotten about and when you try to use them and make the most out of them you utilize things like dodge to provide defense to make those mechanics viable in the new pace of CO.
If this is happening, and it unfortunately sounds like it is, the devs had better MAKE DAMN SURE to take a broad look at powers/sets currently relying on dodge for some modest buffs in other places.
I equate this to taking a guy in a suit of plate armor, stripping him out, and tossing him back in wearing cardboard covered over by tin foil (and a kick me sign).
The fact that Cryptic/PWE is SELLING several ATs that RELY on the mechanic you're nerfing to hell is atrocious.
I for one, play superhero games to feel...y'know. Super.
Getting curbstomped by enemies we should be able to turn into pate (sorry, the forum doesn't take the appropriate character to spell it right)...SUCKS.
These stat changes ARE going to happen, there is no doubt. And honestly they NEED to happen. With that said, I understand your complaints towards PFF and your Support character. So here's a few changes I would like to ALSO see along side these stat changes...
Manipulator
Manipulator needs a SIGNIFICANT Boost to Hold Strength. I know your stacked heavily in this area and while dueling you I was able to break holds FAR to quickly against someone putting everything into them. That has to change. If your taking Manipulator over other Offensive and Defensive Forms it better damn well be worth it!
Plus, if dedicated crowd controllers are actually able to start holding things players might become more inclined to slot some of that CC Resistance Gear. As there is currently NO need for it at all.
Personal Force Field
PFF can easily become an effective Defensive Passive with out using any dodge at all(as dodge is HIGHLY Un-thematic for a Force User anyway.) I KNOW this suggestion has been asked for a few times already but here it is again.
ADD a Damage Resistance component to PFF!!!
Now, to make it more interesting I would like to see the Dam Res of this Passive INCREASE as your Shield get's lower on Health. Something like a 5% damage resistance bonus with a full Shield, and a 30% Damage resistance bonus with a fully depleted Shield.
Also, PFF is HIGHLY dependent on Blocking. Which makes the Force Sheath advantage on Force Block invaluable as it allows your PFF to Regen at full strength while attacking. I would not be apposed to scraping the WEAKENED Shield Regen while attacking thing entirely since it's easily bypassed anyway. Other Defensive Passives don't rely this heavily on other powers to be effective. Just allow PFF to have Maxed Regen permanently.
Oh, and fix PFF so that it no longer get buffed by Compassion Form. That's pretty broken.
*Notes: Regen used to be in pretty bad shape itself until they added some damage mitigation to it, the power still isn't AMAZING but that's at least made it playable. Something to think about.
The current PTS build ( FC.31.20130824.10 ) has the following preview changes.
The diminishing returns curves on Avoid, Dodge, Critical Chance, Severity, and Offense have all been adjusted. Additionally Offense now scales in a separate layer of damage bonus to make it more straight forward to understand. Avoid, Dodge, Critical Chance, and Severity will now rise significantly more slowly while at level cap. Offense will now scale with an entirely new curve, and should be much more valuable to players overall. This is an experimental potential future change that will not be part of the bug fix release. We are interested in how these adjustments feel at at all levels of gameplay.
Please discuss them in this thread!
So, figured I'd put in a rather different perspective; I have a level 12 freeform character, dex primary, form of the tempest. On live, she's got a 32% crit chance - it's fairly painless to re-build FotT stacks. On test, she has 19% crit chance, and the difference is very noticeable - and undesired; I don't want to feel like I have to engage the next group instantly to avoid losing a large portion of damage output.
Plus, the offense change goes from +16% damage... to +1% damage; the actual change (going by numbers showing in tooltips) is about 6% lower damage output (ignoring crits).
So... that's a lot of lost damage, and loss of quality-of-life for a low level, non-min-maxed character. She can still kill stuff, sure, but it's harder, and the rush of trying to avoid losing stacks that take five groups of enemies to rebuild means more face-plants.
In conclusion, I'd ask that you re-look at the lower end of your scaling changes - not just for dodge, but for everything that you're making scale differently. I can see how it might be necessary to reign in some of the heights that a fully-geared level 40 can reach... I don't think newbies should be an acceptable collateral damage.
These stat changes ARE going to happen, there is no doubt. And honestly they NEED to happen. With that said, I understand your complaints towards PFF and your Support character. So here's a few changes I would like to ALSO see along side these stat changes...
I am well aware, I await to see how this will change things.
Manipulator
Manipulator needs a SIGNIFICANT Boost to Hold Strength. I know your stacked heavily in this area and while dueling you I was able to break holds FAR to quickly against someone putting everything into them. That has to change. If your taking Manipulator over other Offensive and Defensive Forms it better damn well be worth it!
Issue here is that CC as a whole is worthless in CO, literally. Anything with over 200 EGO will practically shrug off all and any holds without any effort. My suggestion for Manipulator was for it to actively reduce the amount of break free damage someone who was being held would be able to put out, this would also affect Active Offensive break free damage. However since CC mods for resistance and strength are of little value at best, I am forced to solo instances which I would rather team and in forced teaming instances like Alerts my holds have to be made and broken by me, if I want to feel useful.
The issue isn't Manipulator Form, the issue is the entire Crowd Control Mechanic itself.
Due to changes in the combat system regarding damage numbers and the power of players on the increase, Crowd Control has not been strengthened as a result. Sure "superficial" specs and forms are all well and good, but of what use is it if the Hold HP is of a similar value to that of when holds posed a serious threat in PvP? (Back when I could enter into BASH Matches as a Mind AT and be classed as irritating to bloody annoying) Hold HP and the CC system haven't been updated to reflect such a rapid increase in player power. The most "powerful" types of holds in game now are Ego Sleep (via HP of the hold, not "breakability") and Stuns (these carry hold HP which devalues over time and cannot be broken out of by Z mashing). Until there is a Crowd Control Review, Pass, Revamp etc, CC and Manipulator frankly will be a waste of time regarding -real- holding powers (i.e not Stuns, since their intention was/is short duration)
Personal Force Field
PFF can easily become an effective Defensive Passive with out using any dodge at all(as dodge is HIGHLY Un-thematic for a Force User anyway.) I KNOW this suggestion has been asked for a few times already but here it is again.
Deflecting or absorbing hits which results in less "shield energy" lost. (which in this sense equates to PFF str numbers) It actually makes the most thematic sense bar along with damage absorb and damage reflection. Force Fields are able to either absorb, deflect or redirect energy or force which the user is able to withstand.
PFF currently in game at base level is a blue plaster which allows your "wound" (your HP) to be hit regardless of how well you have tried to seal the plaster on. VIPER playground bullies can use magic guns to flip your wound and plaster arrangement so your wound gets more infected and your plaster only protects you a tiny amount. Other players can simply rip off your plaster and pour as much salt as they want into your wound and if you try to stop them with a back up plaster they'll rip that off as well. Welcome to PFF.
ADD a Damage Resistance component to PFF!!!
Now, to make it more interesting I would like to see the Dam Res of this Passive INCREASE as your Shield get's lower on Health. Something like a 5% damage resistance bonus with a full Shield, and a 30% Damage resistance bonus with a fully depleted Shield.
Not sure if you were around, but I was involved in a 70 something page debate on why PFF should have damage resistance added. I argued it should do and several other players convinced themselves that it would not do anything to assist PFF, in the end, as a fruitage of that thread, The Devs listened to Cyrone and myself in one aspect and fixed PFF's shield regeneration numbers per 3 sec as they were under performing significantly. I could even dredge up threads where I made this exact suggestion.
The issue with PFF is the flawed mechanic of being removable, if it was permanent, it would be OP, so how can it be balanced? One power and an entire NPC Villain group can completely fk over PFF users. The Power is flawed by design, if it had a significant *something* to aid it (be it Damage Absorb, Reflect or scaling dodge/avoid % as shield went lower chance got higher or something) alongside something to aid you when shields are down...like a high chance to reset Field Surge's Recharge Time when shields get below 30%.
With PFF once you get past 60% everything starts going down hill drastically.
Also, PFF is HIGHLY dependent on Blocking. Which makes the Force Sheath advantage on Force Block invaluable as it allows your PFF to Regen at full strength while attacking. I would not be apposed to scraping the WEAKENED Shield Regen while attacking thing entirely since it's easily bypassed anyway. Other Defensive Passives don't rely this heavily on other powers to be effective. Just allow PFF to have Maxed Regen permanently.
Thanks to Cyrone and myself's persistent nagging PFF no longer does any of the following:
- Has it's regen slashed in half in combat and then slashed in half again when you attack
That was fixed to just having shield regen slashed in combat and having the shield regen double when blocking instead of triple.
No other defensive passive acts like a "Defend-Your-Passive" like PFF does, needless to say it is a high maintenance passive, something which in the pace of CO, most people cannot be dealing with PFF's s**t (excuse my French).
Still PFF will never be good enough in it's current form unless player damage was nerfed so badly that people were only able to do around 167- 240 DPS (x values by 3 to get roughly 500 - 700 shield HP per 3 sec which is the regen range for PFF's I've seen) with the majority of powers, not even mobs do such low DPS.
The starting levels for Defensive Passives do show a somewhat good-ish prediction of what gameplay is going to be like:
LR/Invuln/Defiance <--WIN
Regen <-- WIN at lower levels petering off at higher levels to "meh, I could do with some extra defense and heals"
PFF <--crap from the start so why am I doing this again...?
*Notes: Regen used to be in pretty bad shape itself until they added some damage mitigation to it, the power still isn't AMAZING but that's at least made it playable. Something to think about.
Adding Dmg Resistance to PFF would have to be regulated in such a way it isn't redundant or "too powerful". Personally I'd rather see scaling dodge/avoid along with damage reflect. Damage Reflect being a secondary mechanic for PFF when the shield is up (thereby not taking that % of incoming damage, like a force field) and scaling dodge/avoid as PFF drops lower either that or a % chance to reset Field Surge's CD with PFF as the shield level goes down.
End Note: All in All, I currently and will inevitably suffer for pursuing themes which are not properly supported in CO, namely defensive force field usage and crowd control/low offense telepaths. I have many other toons who will suffer from this change but these two in particular will seal the deal for me. In RL if anyone messes with something I have worked hard to get they will face a storm which they will not walk away from, at least not in one piece. Here on the other hand? I cannot do anything but complain and hope.
Anyways..it's 5AM here and if I type anymore it might slur into Spanish or be filled with so many grammatical errors it might as well be another language :P
making things harder to solo is not the way to get people to team UNLESS the mechanics are set up in a certain way. also open world content should not change as that kind of content is what is most often soloed.
The other problem is that teaming in CO is totally clown-shoes.
I meant new content INSTEAD of this insane nerf madness.
Question.
How do you BALANCE new content if you have admittedly broken mechanics that allow certain types of builds to be, demonstrably, orders of magnitude better than random/casual builds?
Skew towards random/casual and have people gripe that it's too easy?
Skew towards the crazy builds, and have to tweak it down later (like they've been doing)?
I've run offensive passives since I started. However, there is a huge performance gap when you factor in active defenses and heals.
You can't simply state it worked before, they'll be fine because so much has changed. Pre-alert, I often couldn't bother with critical chance/sev on a majority of ATs because I couldn't afford the dex/ego investment short of someone like a soldier who had at least one of them as a superstat.
Utility gear was given cost/cd redux in order to open up more options other than INT.
We lost 3 secondary slots, but were given stats like critical strike and increased dodge/avoid to compensate.
Self-healing plays a far bigger role in difficulty than dodge/avoid. When I first started, one of my first big purchases as a silver was a become black talon 2, simply for the sake of having a means of self-healing when fighting something I couldn't simply kill faster before it killed me.
Scapegoating dodge/avoid fails to address the real problems as far as balance goes. But I bet if healing by roles were reduced significantly, all you lifers who've relied on them would be singing a different tune, yet self-healing has far more of an impact on survival than a heroic bp of agility.
And as for LR in its current state, I would say it under-performs. Let's use warlord mobs for example. Invul will simply survive longer under more fire simply because of how they mitigate damage if we take heals out of the equation.
Now, if we take LR, use EM for dodge buffs and bcr, then its a lot more even keel, but at that rate invul will do even better given the same crutch powers.
Defiance may not offer the same mitigation as invul, but it also provides energy and does not require 4 adv points to hit full effectiveness.
I am looking at the big picture here. I too have been playing offensive passives since I started. The reality of the matter is that Offensive passives have always been viable, even before the ones being discussed here were converted into Defensive passives that also provide offensive buffs. Right now most offensive builds are hitting harder than ever before while the opposition, for the most part, has remained static.
I agree that much has changed. In general characters are more powerful relative to the content than they were before. The changes you mention were in the characters' favor. Having changed the characters to be more powerful relative to the game in general is not a reason to be able to generate with offensive passives defensive potential comparable, or even superior, to defensive passives.
Yes self heals do play a huge part in character survivability. Yes a self heal can provide more survivability than a single piece of gear. I don't know that a self heal necessarily provides more survivability than that piece of gear plus EM plus Quarry plus dodge spec plus <insert other dodge buffs here>....all of which can be used in addition to the self heals you mention. This stacking of defensive buffs on an Offensive toon is what I hope is being targeted here. I do not think that dodge is being scapegoated so much as it is recognized that the current implementation of dodge stacking removes the distinction between playing an offensive passive vs a defensive.
Any balance of dodge mechanics needs to ensure that LR is a viable comparable option comparable to Invuln or Defiance. In my opinion the best way to achieve that is to give LR a significant base flat dodge and avoidance numbers that are not affected by revisions to the dodge DR model while ensuring that other dodge buffs are so affected. In this manner defensive dodge builds become more desirable while offensive builds don't get the best of both worlds.
Perhaps give the various non LR dodge buffs more avoidance than dodge so that they are more useful to an LR toon and you have the potential to provide a little more balance between Invuln with dodge stacking and LR with dodge stacking. In this way anyone can get a little dodge, and perhaps a significant avoidance buff without taking LR, but the best defensive use of dodge would be by someone actually building for defense by using the passive oriented for that mechanic.
Is anyone here complaining that taking Fireform doesn't provide the benefits of Defiance on top of the damage buffs of an offensive passive? And yet there are complaints about the idea of Quarry not providing the benefits of LR on top of the benefits of being an offensive passive.
Quarry is just nonsense, and as such needs to be revisited. For the anniversary event I took max quarry and pulse beam rifle with 2 ao giving me a defacto unlimited amount of crit and damage boost. Just to get my name on the open mission boards. Build has no theme outside of that at present.
I'm still begging for individual power balance vs an overhaul due to my gear situation. But if balance is the objective you guys need to look at all the powers and not just the boilerplate standard issue that one takes because "so and so said so".
How do you BALANCE new content if you have admittedly broken mechanics that allow certain types of builds to be, demonstrably, orders of magnitude better than random/casual builds?
Simple. You don't. That's never the way to do balancing. You risk another imbalance due to the nature of the freeform structure if you target balancing based on certain builds. And these builds, have very little, if not none at all, impact on your own game. At most, you notice them when they come out to farm open missions and/or events.
Skew towards random/casual and have people gripe that it's too easy?
Skew towards the crazy builds, and have to tweak it down later (like they've been doing)?
If you look closely, nearly everyone in this discussion has a huge contradiction that's really the elephant in the room, regardless whether they are pro or against this change.
One, they want to be able solo most if not all content, especially farming.
Two, they complain that the game is too easy. Because they can do One.
It can get a bit hypocritical no matter what the argument or agenda is.
I don't see a problem with soloing content, wimpazoid. nothing wrong with that. games not too easy either. remember this is a superhero game as previously stated, we should be self reliant for the most part, I don't care if this is an MMO, there are other ways to encourage teaming.
You misinterpreted. No where did I say any of that is a problem. I merely called it as I see it.
why does everyone use dodge? one reason is because so many powers work well with it.
kill dodge and the best self heal in the game becomes crap, and many concepts are ruined.
Aside of my moderate scepticism with changes"*), because I need to see final outcome first before complaining...
1 - Why those concepts can't swap offensive passive for defensive passive? Invulnerability and Defiance tanks (I'm not talking Regen because it's pretty much given as this passive works best with Str primary for various reasons) have no problems with their damage output.
We still don't know how LR will end after the change.
2 - BCR doesn't need Resurgent Reiki and even dodge to be viable. It has short cooldown, it can be used to proc MSA instead of Conviction. It goes very well paired with cooldown reduction as a kind of semi-regen when ranked to 2 or 3. I was using it on completely non-dodgy FF tank in this fashion. It's still pretty good heal over time even when not linked to dodge.
R3 BCR with single PRE mod actually works like a Regen duplicate when spammed every time when it goes off of cooldown.
I fully undrestand problems of people using PFF. Passive is terribadgodawful on its own and probably**) needs tweaking. But with other builds it is not the case.
*) - Which is more about how new gear will be handled, especially with all people burning cash on Legion gear before.
**) - No, not "probably'. It's bad passive and needs tweaking.
Offensive passive builds were viable before dodge became ubiquitous. Why were they viable then, but won't be now ?
Precisely.
This weekend I spent a chunk of time playing on my toon Storm Bringer. If people were running the event they might have seen her there particularly in zone 1 to start, followed by zones 3 and 4 a lot.
If I got there at the start, she was placing around 8th to 12th much of the time on the scoring cha...excuse me, I mean DPS scoring chart as nothing else matters but that's another discussion. I'll point out a few things for discussion.
1) She was using electric form.
2) No dodge of any kind yet could take a hit from the Mega-D's and survive it. So I spent very little time flying back to action unless I did something stupid...which I did quite a few times.
3) Running in Guardian instead of Ranged since, as anyone who knows me and how I play knows, I use Guardian 99.9999% of the time with the remainder being solely to test something out.
4) She has no legion gear.
5) She has IDF on as a form, not Concentration.
This same toon, like several others I have, is able to carry alerts. She can do most of the game content solo. She can pass my old standard test (I know longer use this) of soloing the powerhouse set to 5 man hard. If she can place in the top ten for the events without an offensive toggle form, can carry alerts and can solo most of the game she is, in my opinion, completely viable. I'll repeat, no dodge gear, no dodge specs, no dodge powers of any kind not even for her active defense.
The notion that any change to dodge makes offensive passives non viable is simply, flatly, totally and demonstrably false. Many of my offensive passive builds are posted in the directory and all are strictly themed and I've put them up for scrutiny for a while. They're still there for scrutiny on this 'dodge is need' notion. I don't have dodge on any characters if it doesn't fit the theme.
Same thing I've been saying for a while. If any build is make or break based on one piece of gear (or any one thing really) regardless of the 14 power choices, 36 advantage points, 3 specialization trees with 10 points a piece, a mastery specialization, 6 gear slots, 5 device slots, multiple build slots, multiple roles, etc. that we get then the problem isn't a few mods and a piece of gear in the primary defense slot.
Builds posted up that use no dodge.
Defensive: Sho Nuff, Arsenal Gear, Star Breaker, Rumble
Support: Saga Venefica, Michel Gabriel
Offensive: Storm Bringer, Allura Synn, Hot Flash, Cold Spell, Midnight
because we don't have enough passives. sometimes your concept requires something only an offensive passive can give you. :rolleyes:
And what exactly is so much needed from Quarry, concept wise? This passive has no visual effect. It's generic physical damage + dodge.
I can hardly see any harm for concept if it's swapped for dodge passive (provided that LR will be viable after changes).
Unless it's all about having equal damage and dodge. But it really should be obvious that situation when offensive passive offers defensive benefits equal to defensive passive, while also offering increased damage on top of it, is strange.
I wasn't referrring to quarry. guess again. and equal damage and dodge is important and should always be an option. although you should have to sacrifice a bit of damage for that dodge I agree.
I don't have to guess anything.
I think that your stance simply can't be defended.
it can, and I will. theres nothing wrong with dodging a lot with shadow form. should you have to sacrifice some avoid? perhaps, but lets talk about that, and not making most offensive passives completely worthless unless you love to faceplant.
example: I want to use electric form. I want high dodge. I should be allowed to have both, but
I should somehow have to sacrifice some of that damage from electric form (or avoid) to get that dodge. its really not that hard to understand.
If you want dodge as high as dodge centered toon you should use dodge passive.
There is no reason why you should be rewarded with dodge/avoidance as high as someone who builds specifically for and around dodge passive.
Games aren't made that way.
It's crazy idea.
And even with trade-offs CO is hardly a trinity-centric game, there are ways of doing enough damage while using defensive passives.
it can, and I will. theres nothing wrong with dodging a lot with shadow form. should you have to sacrifice some avoid? perhaps, but lets talk about that, and not making most offensive passives completely worthless unless you love to faceplant.
example: I want to use electric form. I want high dodge. I should be allowed to have both, but
I should somehow have to sacrifice some of that damage from electric form (or avoid) to get that dodge. its really not that hard to understand.
Electric Form AND high dodge? Sounds like the makings of an Uber Build to me. I thought you were against Uber Builds. You certainly made it a point earlier in this thread to call people out who apparently didn't want their Uber Builds affected by these proposed dodge adjustments. For a while now you've been openly stating you want the benefits of a a high dodge rate in addition to the benefits of an offensive passive.
Is this what people think is the basis of a well rounded build?
Is this what people think is the basis of a well rounded build?
It's impossible to have a well rounded build.
In order to turn a quick buck the developers release new gear that would attracted a market base. But the new gear is not in-line with current content. This makes it seem that "old" powers that have been around since the start of the game are now in some need of a nerf but this is really putting the cart before the horse. So instead of developing new content or raising the level cap for players "like we've been asking for 4 years now", like the reject Crush is, proposes nerfing powers and content, his strategy is indicative of degradation - Where nothing new is being produced rather the current and old content to distorted, to keep a perception alive and you spending money on lock boxes.
You guys can post all the disagreements about how they should go about this nerf about what builds should be viable per theme blah blah blah and all the while miss the 30k foot view here that we have a development staff that is incapable of developing new content for the game and instead invest all their time destroying what was already created in order to keep you spending money on gear in lock boxes. The difference for me is, I'm no longer going to get suckered into it anymore. I know that my dollar will never be invested into future content for this game. And rather than letting mu dollar be used to pay Crush his paycheck so he can destroy the current content I already paid for, this is where I say not today Mr. China Man, go sell you fake knock offs somewhere else.
Umm.. well as much as I don't like nesno's tone, he has a point!
This game is all about LOCKBOXES and what pwe can sell us.
Think about it. You want a jet? Buy it or open a lockbox. You want upper tier gear? Lockbox! It hasn't always been this way, and yes there are other ways to farm... but what new zones have been made in the last few years?
What new missions that are not alerts, have been added? Has there been any changes to existing zones other than Westside since forever?
Yes, Nesno's way is harsh, but this reality of being taken for a fool is just as harsh!
Justice gear=LOCKBOX! Don't know for sure... but I wouldn't bet against it.
Justice gear=LOCKBOX! Don't know for sure... but I wouldn't bet against it.
Think about it for a second, only after a year and gleaming every potential dollar out of the legacy devices - Only then did they make a change to them - GOTCHA
Only after gleaming every dollar out of lock boxes for Legions Gear and right before they roll out Justice gear, they nerf stats to compensate for the differences between the two, to create the need to upgrade in order to re-coop the loss in performance between the two, coincidence? Yea right... - GOTCHA AGAIN.
So instead of making new content to balance the game, Crush in all his shabby and glorious self prepares to nerf the game further to compensate for the perception that we should buy this new gear. Yet another scam to get you to spend more while destroying what you've already paid for and the pattern repeats itself. All in the name of "Balancing the game" Yea right. Don't get fooled again folks, you have an option to change this game by not supporting this Chinese predatory theme park MMO business model.
PFF is a better defense passive than Defiance and Invulnerability if and only if you have 100% resistance to all damage and enough hp in the back to avoid any mis-haps.
Truly, there are only two reasons why Defiance and Invulnerability are prime choices over PFF.
PFF's flaws. These are in the fact that it has a regen rate that cannot be directly regenerate by player action except for one power(and blocking I guess) Only shields you from 90% of the damage.
Secondary Effects. For Defiance, energy gain when stacks are gained are a great source of energy every time you gain a stack. For Invulnerability, flat damage reduction causes a certain phenomenon and strikes fears in the hearts of 70% of CO's enemy entities....I'm talkin' bout them 1s.
Now for direct comparison I'll be gracious and give defiance 22% per stack with 10k hp and 100% resistance to all damage from off-passive.
10000*(2+(0.22*6))=33200 effective hp
For PFF I will look upon my table where I have numbers listed for rank 3 passives. For PFF it says that with 831 in your total superstats you have a pff with and 8025 shield and 788 regen rate. For the test purposes I will remove the regen rate from the equation and count the shield as absorbing 100% of the damage before it reaches your hp with 100% resistance to all damage from off-passive and 10k hp.
(8025*2)+(10000*2)=36050 effective hp
20000 of which can be healed by the player at any time and 16050 which is only affected by Field Surge and its 788 regen rate that is cut in half during combat but doubled when blocking(supposedly).
Invulnerability. Gonna add 10k hp and the numbers from my table. Oh...only 78% and 168...hmm...gonna go big and add in my PTS numbers for a 1577 total in your superstats. 112% with 194 flat damage reduction. Alright, gonna add in 100% off-passive resistance too just to make it better.
(10000*3.12)+194 = 31394 effective hp
Invulnerability is a bit different than defiance. It has flat damage reduction which means that all attacks that are under 605.28 damage(for this specific invulnerability) will do 1 damage to you and all attacks over 605.28 damage will start to deal greater than 1. This means it takes 31395 1s to kill you or a single attack of 31394.1 or more to kill you.
There you have it. Personal Force Field with 100% resistance to all damage is better at protecting the player than even the highest Defiance and Invulnerability possible with the same amount of extra resistance and Health. If CO had a reliable way to regenerate shield strength at-will then no one would be using them over PFF.
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In order to compare the above to LR one would have to grant 100% dodge chance. Right now I will just straight up tell you that LR blows everything else away in terms of effective hp due to how avoidance works. Now I will only give LR 5k hp, 80% avoidance and no resistance to all damage.
5000/0.2 = 25000 effective hp
It would take an attack of 25k or more to kill a LR player who has 5k hp and 80% avoidance with no resistance to all damage. Alright that is fun and all but let's actually give everything to the LR player..80% avoidance 10k hp 100% resistance to all damage.
(10000/0.2)*2=100000 effective hp with dodge
10000*2 = 20000 effective hp without dodge
It would take a single dodged attack of 100k to kill a LR player who has 10k hp and 100% resistance to all damage. You can literally count the number of beings capable of such an attack on one hand.
To sum it up, the reason that HP tanks are better than our only shield tank is that there isn't any way outside of passive and active defense to regenerate shield lost and there are hundreds ways of regenerating health lost.
I'm not doing regeneration for it is a very situational passive...indescribably more-so than LR.
seriously are you that slow? I have no problem with having to sacrifice my crit severity or something like that for more dodge. the dex tree is a good example of this. you seem to be purposefully taking what I say out of context and throwing your ridiculous nonsensical lines at me.
passives are thematic. some concepts require certain passives. different builds require certain passives. you seem to lack a basic understanding of the game (and a basic level of respect for another player who is offering both suggestions and feedback on this horrible "balance" change.)
I'M slow? Let me break this down for you. I'll type slowly.
Offensive Passive = high damage output at the cost of some survivability
Defensive Passive = high degree of survivability at the cost of some damage output.
If you're using an Offensive Passive and are still able to achieve a Defensive Passive level of survivability then something is fundamentally wrong.
While running an offensive passive, if you want to gear and spec defensively to make your character harder to kill then that added survivability has to cost something. Something that's not a filler state like Crit Severity.
I don't get why people want to be unkillable. It is not like there is a real penalty in this game for dieing anyway.
Sigh.. my prob is that in trying to nerf the dodge gear the nerf renders LR almost worthless.
Oh and btw the justice pieces grant a 25 bonus to stats if you wear two or more of em, that said R5 mods go from 55 to 82 on my test character. Glitch!?
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
Comments
If dodge/avoidance is abused across the scale?
Then why not make avoidance FOR DODGE PASSIVES equate to 100%?
Decrease methods powers, mods, etc, for incorporating dodge?
This way, if a dodge passive avatar does indeed dodge? Its a true miss for incoming attacks instead of a mitigating hit, like it is now?
Everyone who is not using a dodge passive? Well, they get screwed simply. Lower their ability to use high amounts of dodge/avoidance.
Let's be candid, its very hard to layer methods of invulnerability and defiance atop LR/WoTW/NW/Quarry, but you can slap dodge/avoidance atop Invulnerability, PFF, Defiance and AoPM.
Basically, if you aren't a dodge passive, you shouldn't be able to get high levels of dodge, cause that's not your main defensive/offensive ability. Why screw over people when its their main mechanic?
With the Off/Def vs Dodge/Crit becoming more balanced this will change how a lot of builds have to function, obviously. Something to think about though, is how this effects Healing. What are the 2 most common Heals taken in the game today? BCR(which is only good with High Dodge) and CONVICTION(which is only good with High Crit Chance.) So for the builds that are no longer Dodge/Crit based, where do they go for heals?
The obvious choice is Bionic Shielding, but the FX is very thematically heavy and not something I would want to take on a lot of my non tech characters. There are the telepathy heals, but those are pretty heavily thematic as well. BCR and Conviction had minimal FX(for the most part) and allowed you to apply quickly.
So what I'd like to see happen is this...
NEW CLICK HEAL
This Heal applies a Heal Over Time effect on you(just like BCR.) The heal scales with your Offense or Defense Stat(much like Resurgence scales with CON), whichever is higher(Or Scales with CON if OFF/DEF scaling won't work for any reason.) Has very minimal FX(or None at all) so that it is able to work for a LARGE amount of Thematic Builds.
*Notes: Endorphin Rush might need to be removed from Enrage altogether, because this new Heal would basically replace it while allowing it to be much more forgiving towards build diversity.
I hope I explained this well enough.
I have a concept of a super heavily armoured battlesuit that basically brick walls everything with guns and lasers.
So, your words here, are basically saying that it's alright that my super heavy battlesuit that incorporates no dodge but has all other forms of defense, on a tank oriented build, should be surpassed by a person with an offensive passive and two mod slots in the 'how much damage can I survive' compartment due to the fact that dodge cuts out entire sections of damage repeatedly. But that's 'in theme' and 'concept'.
Seems legit.
Deliciously nutritious!
And yet, it DOES surpass mine. You have easily as much defensive capability utilizing dodge since it's so bloody easy to get, as well as having a much higher offensive ability.
That doesn't seem wrong to you at all?
Deliciously nutritious!
Please run PFF at level 40 without any dodge/avoid gear. No Compassion Form.
The issue is that -SOME- powers have such poor mechanics that due to their design that reliance on Dodge/Avoid to survive has become an actual defense mechanic rather than an added bonus. There are certain powers in game which flat out do not work against certain foes, whilst these foes are not in the majority they are classed as "end game or higher level content" if I as a Crowd Control user am reduced to debuffing foes in higher level instances, my level of usefulness is already cut by at -least- 80% since my primary intention of my build does not function.
Therefore I rely on debuffing and low damage to contribute as well as passive healing for all. If I am consistently face planting what exactly am I contributing to the team? In the main, at least for me, dodge reduces the chance of this happening to me, allowing me to contribute more and survive longer.
If this shouldn't be the case then this means I am suffering for pursuing a certain theme because the mechanics in place do not allow me to actively participate in higher level content in my desired way, making me an under equipped debuffer and a very bad healer.
Again, go and run Personal Force Field (PFF) without dodge/avoid or Compassion Form. I have slaved away trying combinations of powers to make that particular passive to behave like a defensive passive. I was VERY reluctant to even touch dodge/avoid when I first started out, convinced that Defense would save me. Under persuasion I tried dodge and my god, PFF's survival increased so much it could almost be called a Defensive Passive, instead of a Defend-Your-Passive Power.
The issue there is again power mechanics. If everyone is looking at this from a PvP vs Concept or "balance" view point, the impact that it will have on other less conventional builds as opposed to Quarry/2GM/ER etc will be significant enough to remove the viability of a number of builds and concepts.
My issue with such a proposed change is simple:
- How will it affect EVERYTHING?
Without proper values to deal with regarding dodge, I cannot make a solid basis for an argument regarding this.
I am just hopeful that the feedback given is taken into consideration, so that a place is reached where dodge stacking isn't insane aka over 100% dodge and dodge isn't so crippled a number of builds which use a mixture of defense and dodge are not left entirely useless.
Now if they were proposing this change in addition to large scale changes to the way defense, damage mitigation and passive resistances and power mechanics... that would be another story entirely. Because (IMO) some mechanics and powers are generally "behind" the norm for CO builds they are forgotten about and when you try to use them and make the most out of them you utilize things like dodge to provide defense to make those mechanics viable in the new pace of CO.
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I equate this to taking a guy in a suit of plate armor, stripping him out, and tossing him back in wearing cardboard covered over by tin foil (and a kick me sign).
The fact that Cryptic/PWE is SELLING several ATs that RELY on the mechanic you're nerfing to hell is atrocious.
I for one, play superhero games to feel...y'know. Super.
Getting curbstomped by enemies we should be able to turn into pate (sorry, the forum doesn't take the appropriate character to spell it right)...SUCKS.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
These stat changes ARE going to happen, there is no doubt. And honestly they NEED to happen. With that said, I understand your complaints towards PFF and your Support character. So here's a few changes I would like to ALSO see along side these stat changes...
Manipulator
Manipulator needs a SIGNIFICANT Boost to Hold Strength. I know your stacked heavily in this area and while dueling you I was able to break holds FAR to quickly against someone putting everything into them. That has to change. If your taking Manipulator over other Offensive and Defensive Forms it better damn well be worth it!
Plus, if dedicated crowd controllers are actually able to start holding things players might become more inclined to slot some of that CC Resistance Gear. As there is currently NO need for it at all.
Personal Force Field
PFF can easily become an effective Defensive Passive with out using any dodge at all(as dodge is HIGHLY Un-thematic for a Force User anyway.) I KNOW this suggestion has been asked for a few times already but here it is again.
ADD a Damage Resistance component to PFF!!!
Now, to make it more interesting I would like to see the Dam Res of this Passive INCREASE as your Shield get's lower on Health. Something like a 5% damage resistance bonus with a full Shield, and a 30% Damage resistance bonus with a fully depleted Shield.
Also, PFF is HIGHLY dependent on Blocking. Which makes the Force Sheath advantage on Force Block invaluable as it allows your PFF to Regen at full strength while attacking. I would not be apposed to scraping the WEAKENED Shield Regen while attacking thing entirely since it's easily bypassed anyway. Other Defensive Passives don't rely this heavily on other powers to be effective. Just allow PFF to have Maxed Regen permanently.
Oh, and fix PFF so that it no longer get buffed by Compassion Form. That's pretty broken.
*Notes: Regen used to be in pretty bad shape itself until they added some damage mitigation to it, the power still isn't AMAZING but that's at least made it playable. Something to think about.
Plus, the offense change goes from +16% damage... to +1% damage; the actual change (going by numbers showing in tooltips) is about 6% lower damage output (ignoring crits).
So... that's a lot of lost damage, and loss of quality-of-life for a low level, non-min-maxed character. She can still kill stuff, sure, but it's harder, and the rush of trying to avoid losing stacks that take five groups of enemies to rebuild means more face-plants.
In conclusion, I'd ask that you re-look at the lower end of your scaling changes - not just for dodge, but for everything that you're making scale differently. I can see how it might be necessary to reign in some of the heights that a fully-geared level 40 can reach... I don't think newbies should be an acceptable collateral damage.
I am well aware, I await to see how this will change things.
Issue here is that CC as a whole is worthless in CO, literally. Anything with over 200 EGO will practically shrug off all and any holds without any effort. My suggestion for Manipulator was for it to actively reduce the amount of break free damage someone who was being held would be able to put out, this would also affect Active Offensive break free damage. However since CC mods for resistance and strength are of little value at best, I am forced to solo instances which I would rather team and in forced teaming instances like Alerts my holds have to be made and broken by me, if I want to feel useful.
The issue isn't Manipulator Form, the issue is the entire Crowd Control Mechanic itself.
Due to changes in the combat system regarding damage numbers and the power of players on the increase, Crowd Control has not been strengthened as a result. Sure "superficial" specs and forms are all well and good, but of what use is it if the Hold HP is of a similar value to that of when holds posed a serious threat in PvP? (Back when I could enter into BASH Matches as a Mind AT and be classed as irritating to bloody annoying) Hold HP and the CC system haven't been updated to reflect such a rapid increase in player power. The most "powerful" types of holds in game now are Ego Sleep (via HP of the hold, not "breakability") and Stuns (these carry hold HP which devalues over time and cannot be broken out of by Z mashing). Until there is a Crowd Control Review, Pass, Revamp etc, CC and Manipulator frankly will be a waste of time regarding -real- holding powers (i.e not Stuns, since their intention was/is short duration)
Deflecting or absorbing hits which results in less "shield energy" lost. (which in this sense equates to PFF str numbers) It actually makes the most thematic sense bar along with damage absorb and damage reflection. Force Fields are able to either absorb, deflect or redirect energy or force which the user is able to withstand.
PFF currently in game at base level is a blue plaster which allows your "wound" (your HP) to be hit regardless of how well you have tried to seal the plaster on. VIPER playground bullies can use magic guns to flip your wound and plaster arrangement so your wound gets more infected and your plaster only protects you a tiny amount. Other players can simply rip off your plaster and pour as much salt as they want into your wound and if you try to stop them with a back up plaster they'll rip that off as well. Welcome to PFF.
Not sure if you were around, but I was involved in a 70 something page debate on why PFF should have damage resistance added. I argued it should do and several other players convinced themselves that it would not do anything to assist PFF, in the end, as a fruitage of that thread, The Devs listened to Cyrone and myself in one aspect and fixed PFF's shield regeneration numbers per 3 sec as they were under performing significantly. I could even dredge up threads where I made this exact suggestion.
The issue with PFF is the flawed mechanic of being removable, if it was permanent, it would be OP, so how can it be balanced? One power and an entire NPC Villain group can completely fk over PFF users. The Power is flawed by design, if it had a significant *something* to aid it (be it Damage Absorb, Reflect or scaling dodge/avoid % as shield went lower chance got higher or something) alongside something to aid you when shields are down...like a high chance to reset Field Surge's Recharge Time when shields get below 30%.
With PFF once you get past 60% everything starts going down hill drastically.
Thanks to Cyrone and myself's persistent nagging PFF no longer does any of the following:
- Has it's regen slashed in half in combat and then slashed in half again when you attack
That was fixed to just having shield regen slashed in combat and having the shield regen double when blocking instead of triple.
No other defensive passive acts like a "Defend-Your-Passive" like PFF does, needless to say it is a high maintenance passive, something which in the pace of CO, most people cannot be dealing with PFF's s**t (excuse my French).
Still PFF will never be good enough in it's current form unless player damage was nerfed so badly that people were only able to do around 167- 240 DPS (x values by 3 to get roughly 500 - 700 shield HP per 3 sec which is the regen range for PFF's I've seen) with the majority of powers, not even mobs do such low DPS.
The starting levels for Defensive Passives do show a somewhat good-ish prediction of what gameplay is going to be like:
LR/Invuln/Defiance <--WIN
Regen <-- WIN at lower levels petering off at higher levels to "meh, I could do with some extra defense and heals"
PFF <--crap from the start so why am I doing this again...?
Adding Dmg Resistance to PFF would have to be regulated in such a way it isn't redundant or "too powerful". Personally I'd rather see scaling dodge/avoid along with damage reflect. Damage Reflect being a secondary mechanic for PFF when the shield is up (thereby not taking that % of incoming damage, like a force field) and scaling dodge/avoid as PFF drops lower either that or a % chance to reset Field Surge's CD with PFF as the shield level goes down.
End Note: All in All, I currently and will inevitably suffer for pursuing themes which are not properly supported in CO, namely defensive force field usage and crowd control/low offense telepaths. I have many other toons who will suffer from this change but these two in particular will seal the deal for me. In RL if anyone messes with something I have worked hard to get they will face a storm which they will not walk away from, at least not in one piece. Here on the other hand? I cannot do anything but complain and hope.
Anyways..it's 5AM here and if I type anymore it might slur into Spanish or be filled with so many grammatical errors it might as well be another language :P
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The other problem is that teaming in CO is totally clown-shoes.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
Question.
How do you BALANCE new content if you have admittedly broken mechanics that allow certain types of builds to be, demonstrably, orders of magnitude better than random/casual builds?
Skew towards random/casual and have people gripe that it's too easy?
Skew towards the crazy builds, and have to tweak it down later (like they've been doing)?
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
I am looking at the big picture here. I too have been playing offensive passives since I started. The reality of the matter is that Offensive passives have always been viable, even before the ones being discussed here were converted into Defensive passives that also provide offensive buffs. Right now most offensive builds are hitting harder than ever before while the opposition, for the most part, has remained static.
I agree that much has changed. In general characters are more powerful relative to the content than they were before. The changes you mention were in the characters' favor. Having changed the characters to be more powerful relative to the game in general is not a reason to be able to generate with offensive passives defensive potential comparable, or even superior, to defensive passives.
Yes self heals do play a huge part in character survivability. Yes a self heal can provide more survivability than a single piece of gear. I don't know that a self heal necessarily provides more survivability than that piece of gear plus EM plus Quarry plus dodge spec plus <insert other dodge buffs here>....all of which can be used in addition to the self heals you mention. This stacking of defensive buffs on an Offensive toon is what I hope is being targeted here. I do not think that dodge is being scapegoated so much as it is recognized that the current implementation of dodge stacking removes the distinction between playing an offensive passive vs a defensive.
Any balance of dodge mechanics needs to ensure that LR is a viable comparable option comparable to Invuln or Defiance. In my opinion the best way to achieve that is to give LR a significant base flat dodge and avoidance numbers that are not affected by revisions to the dodge DR model while ensuring that other dodge buffs are so affected. In this manner defensive dodge builds become more desirable while offensive builds don't get the best of both worlds.
Perhaps give the various non LR dodge buffs more avoidance than dodge so that they are more useful to an LR toon and you have the potential to provide a little more balance between Invuln with dodge stacking and LR with dodge stacking. In this way anyone can get a little dodge, and perhaps a significant avoidance buff without taking LR, but the best defensive use of dodge would be by someone actually building for defense by using the passive oriented for that mechanic.
Is anyone here complaining that taking Fireform doesn't provide the benefits of Defiance on top of the damage buffs of an offensive passive? And yet there are complaints about the idea of Quarry not providing the benefits of LR on top of the benefits of being an offensive passive.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I'm still begging for individual power balance vs an overhaul due to my gear situation. But if balance is the objective you guys need to look at all the powers and not just the boilerplate standard issue that one takes because "so and so said so".
Honestly.
One, they want to be able solo most if not all content, especially farming.
Two, they complain that the game is too easy. Because they can do One.
It can get a bit hypocritical no matter what the argument or agenda is.
A global nerf to dodge will only effect everything because everyone uses dodge, which was never intended. :rolleyes:
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Aside of my moderate scepticism with changes"*), because I need to see final outcome first before complaining...
1 - Why those concepts can't swap offensive passive for defensive passive? Invulnerability and Defiance tanks (I'm not talking Regen because it's pretty much given as this passive works best with Str primary for various reasons) have no problems with their damage output.
We still don't know how LR will end after the change.
2 - BCR doesn't need Resurgent Reiki and even dodge to be viable. It has short cooldown, it can be used to proc MSA instead of Conviction. It goes very well paired with cooldown reduction as a kind of semi-regen when ranked to 2 or 3. I was using it on completely non-dodgy FF tank in this fashion. It's still pretty good heal over time even when not linked to dodge.
R3 BCR with single PRE mod actually works like a Regen duplicate when spammed every time when it goes off of cooldown.
I fully undrestand problems of people using PFF. Passive is terribadgodawful on its own and probably**) needs tweaking. But with other builds it is not the case.
*) - Which is more about how new gear will be handled, especially with all people burning cash on Legion gear before.
**) - No, not "probably'. It's bad passive and needs tweaking.
Precisely.
This weekend I spent a chunk of time playing on my toon Storm Bringer. If people were running the event they might have seen her there particularly in zone 1 to start, followed by zones 3 and 4 a lot.
If I got there at the start, she was placing around 8th to 12th much of the time on the scoring cha...excuse me, I mean DPS scoring chart as nothing else matters but that's another discussion. I'll point out a few things for discussion.
1) She was using electric form.
2) No dodge of any kind yet could take a hit from the Mega-D's and survive it. So I spent very little time flying back to action unless I did something stupid...which I did quite a few times.
3) Running in Guardian instead of Ranged since, as anyone who knows me and how I play knows, I use Guardian 99.9999% of the time with the remainder being solely to test something out.
4) She has no legion gear.
5) She has IDF on as a form, not Concentration.
This same toon, like several others I have, is able to carry alerts. She can do most of the game content solo. She can pass my old standard test (I know longer use this) of soloing the powerhouse set to 5 man hard. If she can place in the top ten for the events without an offensive toggle form, can carry alerts and can solo most of the game she is, in my opinion, completely viable. I'll repeat, no dodge gear, no dodge specs, no dodge powers of any kind not even for her active defense.
The notion that any change to dodge makes offensive passives non viable is simply, flatly, totally and demonstrably false. Many of my offensive passive builds are posted in the directory and all are strictly themed and I've put them up for scrutiny for a while. They're still there for scrutiny on this 'dodge is need' notion. I don't have dodge on any characters if it doesn't fit the theme.
Same thing I've been saying for a while. If any build is make or break based on one piece of gear (or any one thing really) regardless of the 14 power choices, 36 advantage points, 3 specialization trees with 10 points a piece, a mastery specialization, 6 gear slots, 5 device slots, multiple build slots, multiple roles, etc. that we get then the problem isn't a few mods and a piece of gear in the primary defense slot.
Builds posted up that use no dodge.
Defensive: Sho Nuff, Arsenal Gear, Star Breaker, Rumble
Support: Saga Venefica, Michel Gabriel
Offensive: Storm Bringer, Allura Synn, Hot Flash, Cold Spell, Midnight
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And what exactly is so much needed from Quarry, concept wise? This passive has no visual effect. It's generic physical damage + dodge.
I can hardly see any harm for concept if it's swapped for dodge passive (provided that LR will be viable after changes).
Unless it's all about having equal damage and dodge. But it really should be obvious that situation when offensive passive offers defensive benefits equal to defensive passive, while also offering increased damage on top of it, is strange.
I think that your stance simply can't be defended.
If you want dodge as high as dodge centered toon you should use dodge passive.
There is no reason why you should be rewarded with dodge/avoidance as high as someone who builds specifically for and around dodge passive.
Games aren't made that way.
It's crazy idea.
And even with trade-offs CO is hardly a trinity-centric game, there are ways of doing enough damage while using defensive passives.
Electric Form AND high dodge? Sounds like the makings of an Uber Build to me. I thought you were against Uber Builds. You certainly made it a point earlier in this thread to call people out who apparently didn't want their Uber Builds affected by these proposed dodge adjustments. For a while now you've been openly stating you want the benefits of a a high dodge rate in addition to the benefits of an offensive passive.
Is this what people think is the basis of a well rounded build?
It's impossible to have a well rounded build.
In order to turn a quick buck the developers release new gear that would attracted a market base. But the new gear is not in-line with current content. This makes it seem that "old" powers that have been around since the start of the game are now in some need of a nerf but this is really putting the cart before the horse. So instead of developing new content or raising the level cap for players "like we've been asking for 4 years now", like the reject Crush is, proposes nerfing powers and content, his strategy is indicative of degradation - Where nothing new is being produced rather the current and old content to distorted, to keep a perception alive and you spending money on lock boxes.
You guys can post all the disagreements about how they should go about this nerf about what builds should be viable per theme blah blah blah and all the while miss the 30k foot view here that we have a development staff that is incapable of developing new content for the game and instead invest all their time destroying what was already created in order to keep you spending money on gear in lock boxes. The difference for me is, I'm no longer going to get suckered into it anymore. I know that my dollar will never be invested into future content for this game. And rather than letting mu dollar be used to pay Crush his paycheck so he can destroy the current content I already paid for, this is where I say not today Mr. China Man, go sell you fake knock offs somewhere else.
-Xeno
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Umm.. well as much as I don't like nesno's tone, he has a point!
This game is all about LOCKBOXES and what pwe can sell us.
Think about it. You want a jet? Buy it or open a lockbox. You want upper tier gear? Lockbox! It hasn't always been this way, and yes there are other ways to farm... but what new zones have been made in the last few years?
What new missions that are not alerts, have been added? Has there been any changes to existing zones other than Westside since forever?
Yes, Nesno's way is harsh, but this reality of being taken for a fool is just as harsh!
Justice gear=LOCKBOX! Don't know for sure... but I wouldn't bet against it.
Think about it for a second, only after a year and gleaming every potential dollar out of the legacy devices - Only then did they make a change to them - GOTCHA
Only after gleaming every dollar out of lock boxes for Legions Gear and right before they roll out Justice gear, they nerf stats to compensate for the differences between the two, to create the need to upgrade in order to re-coop the loss in performance between the two, coincidence? Yea right... - GOTCHA AGAIN.
So instead of making new content to balance the game, Crush in all his shabby and glorious self prepares to nerf the game further to compensate for the perception that we should buy this new gear. Yet another scam to get you to spend more while destroying what you've already paid for and the pattern repeats itself. All in the name of "Balancing the game" Yea right. Don't get fooled again folks, you have an option to change this game by not supporting this Chinese predatory theme park MMO business model.
-Xeno
That said, are Justice Pieces supposed to boost a mod's effectiveness or am I missing something?
Truly, there are only two reasons why Defiance and Invulnerability are prime choices over PFF.
Now for direct comparison I'll be gracious and give defiance 22% per stack with 10k hp and 100% resistance to all damage from off-passive.
10000*(2+(0.22*6))=33200 effective hp
For PFF I will look upon my table where I have numbers listed for rank 3 passives. For PFF it says that with 831 in your total superstats you have a pff with and 8025 shield and 788 regen rate. For the test purposes I will remove the regen rate from the equation and count the shield as absorbing 100% of the damage before it reaches your hp with 100% resistance to all damage from off-passive and 10k hp.
(8025*2)+(10000*2)=36050 effective hp
20000 of which can be healed by the player at any time and 16050 which is only affected by Field Surge and its 788 regen rate that is cut in half during combat but doubled when blocking(supposedly).
Invulnerability. Gonna add 10k hp and the numbers from my table. Oh...only 78% and 168...hmm...gonna go big and add in my PTS numbers for a 1577 total in your superstats. 112% with 194 flat damage reduction. Alright, gonna add in 100% off-passive resistance too just to make it better.
(10000*3.12)+194 = 31394 effective hp
Invulnerability is a bit different than defiance. It has flat damage reduction which means that all attacks that are under 605.28 damage(for this specific invulnerability) will do 1 damage to you and all attacks over 605.28 damage will start to deal greater than 1. This means it takes 31395 1s to kill you or a single attack of 31394.1 or more to kill you.
There you have it. Personal Force Field with 100% resistance to all damage is better at protecting the player than even the highest Defiance and Invulnerability possible with the same amount of extra resistance and Health. If CO had a reliable way to regenerate shield strength at-will then no one would be using them over PFF.
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In order to compare the above to LR one would have to grant 100% dodge chance. Right now I will just straight up tell you that LR blows everything else away in terms of effective hp due to how avoidance works. Now I will only give LR 5k hp, 80% avoidance and no resistance to all damage.
5000/0.2 = 25000 effective hp
It would take an attack of 25k or more to kill a LR player who has 5k hp and 80% avoidance with no resistance to all damage. Alright that is fun and all but let's actually give everything to the LR player..80% avoidance 10k hp 100% resistance to all damage.
(10000/0.2)*2=100000 effective hp with dodge
10000*2 = 20000 effective hp without dodge
It would take a single dodged attack of 100k to kill a LR player who has 10k hp and 100% resistance to all damage. You can literally count the number of beings capable of such an attack on one hand.
To sum it up, the reason that HP tanks are better than our only shield tank is that there isn't any way outside of passive and active defense to regenerate shield lost and there are hundreds ways of regenerating health lost.
I'm not doing regeneration for it is a very situational passive...indescribably more-so than LR.
I don't care about not dieing, I only have one toon who is that way-anything in the zones though-and these changes don't affect him.
It is my other toons who I have built with themes in mind that it affects.
I am more angry (now) at the lack of a clear vision these changes are for, from the devs side, than the actual changes.
I've gotten the same impression.
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I don't get why people want to be unkillable. It is not like there is a real penalty in this game for dieing anyway.
I'M slow? Let me break this down for you. I'll type slowly.
Offensive Passive = high damage output at the cost of some survivability
Defensive Passive = high degree of survivability at the cost of some damage output.
If you're using an Offensive Passive and are still able to achieve a Defensive Passive level of survivability then something is fundamentally wrong.
While running an offensive passive, if you want to gear and spec defensively to make your character harder to kill then that added survivability has to cost something. Something that's not a filler state like Crit Severity.
gradii you are not a good person to listen to when it comes to things like this. you don't care about balance, you care about making sure your toon continues to perform in a way you've grown accustomed to. this is what I've gathered from reading your posts at least. this seems to be your idea of balace, balance for you, screw everyone else that disagrees. :angryface: :grr angryface:
Sigh.. my prob is that in trying to nerf the dodge gear the nerf renders LR almost worthless.
Oh and btw the justice pieces grant a 25 bonus to stats if you wear two or more of em, that said R5 mods go from 55 to 82 on my test character. Glitch!?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
"Being unkillable would be nice", said the PFF Force tank.
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
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