Kaizerin, you've been in this game a lot longer than I. Was there any problem with crit/dodge/avoid curves prior to On Alert? Or the powers?
It's just the gear that makes it too easy. Yes, you can get back some Dodge through specs but in the DEX and CON trees you actually are giving something valuable to attain that.
There was another significant change pre On Alert in the F2P patch (I think that's what it was).
I'll try and summarise
The old days
Passive strength depended on specific Stats for example Shadow Form depended on End and Con to gain decent attacking and defensive bonus. We only had two SS to choose back in the day.
This meant that I could build a Dex/End Darkness toon but some of what I gained in crits would be lost in Passive strength defence or offence, maybe both. Invulnerable depended on Str and Int, if you didn't have them it would be less effective. Crit strength depended on your ego value and you didn't need much to get high crit values.
Gear - Main pieces had two or sometimes three values (no crit chance or cost reduction in those days) However they favoured specific stats per type of piece.
For example a Primary Offence gave Str, Dex or Rec as it's main stat. Primary Defence gave Con, Pre or equal of both. Primary Utilities had End, Int and Ego (?) but they also gave a secondary value and we also had 6 secondary slots to make up for it.
Dodge gear could be had but it was rare, not totally unknown but it cost Gs to get the best stuff and you would sacrifice the main stat (I think) for increased dodge.
Dodge worked differently pre and for a while post On Alert. Dodge chance used to be doubled against attacks taking 2 seconds, remain the same against 1 sec attacks and was halved against attacks taking .5 secs. Elite mobs had 40 - 50% dodge chance even the small ones so the only thing you saw in elite lairs was high power maintains and the odd tap spam. Power up attacks were seriously nerfed in the old game.
Having changed Passives to feeding on SS for their strength suprise suprise there was a lot of Crit building all of a sudden. For a while the only way to build a ranged tank was to use enrage (only form that really buffed ranged attacks) which depended on Str and then we got Concentration and the Enrage nerf.
Very sorry bout inaccuracies where they occur it's been a looooong time.
I mentioned in another thread rather bitterly that I would like em to roll back to pre On Alert. I will ammend that by saying I would like em to roll back to pre F2P. While there was certainly power building there was also a lot more compromise involved with toons, I have a build that could only exist post On Alert. It has high crit rate, defensive passive and the ability to alpha strike and sustain several force cascades whilst using travel power.
I got problems with LR being made utterly worthless all of a sudden but hey if you wanna give us a massive nerf then let's just ****ing roll back! On Alert combined with F2P trivialised content in a game that plenty said was too easy anyhow.
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
Clarification: why did I do fine without any of that before On Alert hit?
Before On Alert, there was no crit gear, and you had to sacrifice stats to get dodge. In a game without spec trees, that was a very big deal.
Yet, the playerbase did fine. Some did better than fine, and managed to adapt sufficiently.
The new numbers will probably be about the same as pre-on alert levels, which were still quite reasonable. For now, I recommend waiting to see if Cryptic fixes dodge scaling (seeing as that appears to be bugged) and letting this go through several iterations before raising a humongous stink.
You know, maybe this is why the devs don't communicate more often: they allow us to preview changes like this and we lose our freaking minds. I sure wouldn't want to communicate with this crowd if knee-jerk DOOM AND GLOOM was the default response.
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[thread=139701]My old, old guide for Ego Blades. Updated for On: Alert.[/thread]
[thread=154211]The Costume Contest Schedule. Stay up-to-date without having to log in![/thread]
Kaizerin, you've been in this game a lot longer than I. Was there any problem with crit/dodge/avoid curves prior to On Alert? Or the powers?
It's just the gear that makes it too easy. Yes, you can get back some Dodge through specs but in the DEX and CON trees you actually are giving something valuable to attain that.
In the past dodge scaled depending on charge time, the longer a power was charged the higher the dodge chance. If I remember correctly on-alert was when that was changed.
The problem with that was invulnerability builds, the low damage tap powers were mitigated by invulnerability and the high damage charge powers by dodge. The dodge rating/chance curves were the same as they are now I think, but the numbers were lower.
One of the biggest problems with dodge are the flat dodge percentages, things EM, quarry and thundering kicks. Without a flat dodge bonus, LR is quite bad, probably the worst out of any passive, of course the problem is that these things are not useful only for LR but for all builds. So that is the thing that needs to be changed, just changing all the flat bonuses to rating would fix most things related to dodge, but the curve could use a little lowering too.
This would make LR rather useless, so give LR a flat percentage bonus, and keep that unique to LR.
But there are more problems besides dodge, if dodge gets changed, but things like stat/spec/power balance are left alone there will never be any sort of balance. Like things are now on PTS, is not going to fix anything, just make other options the FOTM choices.
If things like dps and healing would get balanced against some baselines, range, mobility, utility, etc, we could see 'how these adjustments feel at at all levels of gameplay'. Right now... well my TGM character still feels severely overpowered, with that new gear maybe even more so then on live, dodge bugs or no.
I really hope the devs are planning a LOT more balance changes, these just don't change all that much besides breaking some builds, and giving even more dps.. like we needed that.
I will take back my second snarky comment. Since it is reported that things are still bugged. So i will give the Devs a chance, however, I still do not care for nerfs.
As I said before, I hate feeling less and less super in a super hero game.
It is also why I miss the old Imbue. I could care less about balance, course I care even less for PVP.
BUT, it is in fact Cryptics game. SO I will shut up now.
Again, thanks to those who are better testers than I, and thanks for running the numbers
you cant "balance" this game. there will NEVER be a perfect balance. attempts to create perfect balance will only be counterproductive. this is a superhero game, and it has a freeform system (which is one of the only reasons its better than the other superhero MMOs).
if you want balance this isnt the game for you.
Great idea, just make the powers I want to use at this time overpowered then, don't forget to change them when I relog of course.
Let me guess, you are a fan of pistols....
If you don't care for balance this thread is not for you.
If you are doing an event and you see more then 50% of all ranged builds using the same powers something is wrong, clearly other people do care about how well powers perform.
Y'all need to simmer down and perhaps do some testing on builds that don't involve slapping a dodge item on and using BCR. That's not the end-all-be-all because other methods(while lacking behind) are still there and are decent enough for the game.
Now, I get it. Some of you claim to be building 'for concept', and I get that, I totally do. I sympathize with you all and I totally agree that nerfing dodge will put a dent in your builds. However, acting like this? When the changes aren't even set in stone? And are on the PTS? For testing? Yeah, uh, those numbers are (Hopefully) gunna change. Why do you think something like the Thunderbolt Lunge disable got changed, or any of the powers that got adjusted? People tested, people gave feedback(or in a lot of cases, cried), things were altered.
Let's pretend this change goes through. Let's also pretend that all the dodge mechanics are altered to reasonable values, like LR having 50-65% dodge chance, Quarry being a bit better or worse, WotW having about the same or more than Quarry. Your character is agile and dodges? Take one of the passives that give the dodge. There, simple, your character can dodge.
Also, you want to feel super and take all the hits and be the last one standing? Great, you can do that too, but you're going to sacrifice a few things in order to achieve that. Less damage, more healing or more defensive measures. Active Defenses, specific Specializations, all that jazz. You'll get what you want. This, however, is beyond some people.
You all got so used to slapping on a dodge primary, using BCR and suddenly being able to take twice the hits. That is not balanced. In fact, you all say "RAISE THE MOB DIFFICULTY". I took off my character's dodge gear, gave it no dodge abilities whatsoever, and filled in the gaps with some defensive powers. Suddenly the game was a bit harder, but I could still take on a 5 man, Hard conned group of Purple Gang in the PH. I had to use all of my abilities, pay attention to what was going on, react accordingly. To me, that is more difficult. Not to mention feels like I'm playing a game.
Standing there and dodging everything and never having to even pay attention is not mine, and I'm sure it isn't the Devs view of what this game should be like.
You want to feel super? Make a build that can survive without a crutch.
You want to steamroll everything to powerlevel, farm costume pieces, ezmode Open Missions? Buy a vehicle. Or better yet, group with people. You know, get a Brick, with a healer maybe, and you can sit back and watch as all your wonderful big, yellow numbers go up.
you cant "balance" this game. there will NEVER be a perfect balance. attempts to create perfect balance will only be counterproductive. this is a superhero game, and it has a freeform system (which is one of the only reasons its better than the other superhero MMOs).
if you want balance this isnt the game for you.
An attitude like that is toxic to a game's environment. While "perfect balance" remains the holy grail of game design, that does not mean that the developers should not strive for it. "It's a superhero game" is a flimsy justification not to; by that logic, certain fantasy games shouldn't strive for balance because "they're fantasy games, they shouldn't bother because wizards should be able to just nuke everything/warriors should be able to cleave through anything because fantasy", and sci-fi MMO's shouldn't either because "they're science fiction; they're above such petty concepts as balance".
This is a game first, and as it stands there are power and gear selections that are, objectively speaking, better choices within their respective tiers. That isn't good for the game or the playerbase; players that don't like those selections and do not take them will be objectively worse than others.
You've made your point: you like the status quo on player power and want new content. The problem is, the Forum Malvanum, Gravitar, the Mega-D even, and Cybermind are necessary to challenge players. And even they aren't enough; I've witnessed players consistently surviving Gravitar's Yellow Bubble of Doom.
Heals, damage, dodge, and cooldown and damage reduction are all horridly skewed in the players' favor, and that gap only widens as the players gear up and finalize their power and spec choices. It's so easy for healers to heal all of a player's wounds (both via self-healing and from external sources like other players), that the only real danger in missions can be introduced via timers or instant-death mechanics. And when actual failure conditions exist, people still whine and complain.
On Alert increased player power significantly without giving a similar boost to the mobs. Adjusting player power to be within more reasonable levels will allow them to design content that, hopefully, doesn't have the instant-death mechanics certain individuals (not naming names) appear to loathe. If this does lead to more content, I'm all for it. Anything to give me a reason to log onto my level 40 characters is good in my book.
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[thread=139701]My old, old guide for Ego Blades. Updated for On: Alert.[/thread]
[thread=154211]The Costume Contest Schedule. Stay up-to-date without having to log in![/thread]
With regard to the Justice gear, all stat-boosting mods are granting far more than their normal bonuses. The tooltip on the gear states that a full set will grant you +25 to each SS, but on top of that R7 mods are granting +92 rather than +62. Growth cores and the Veteran's Core of Might are seeing significant boosts as well.
I'm guessing this extra bonus is a bug. If not, I'm able to get Defiance-like defense from Juggernaut from a nearly 600 CON.
Not that I'd be against the higher stats if we had epic content to challenge us at that range of ability, but all we have is Gravitar and a few lairs.
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The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
Theres a saying that goes "fool me once, shame on you... Fool me twice shame on me." Look at this from a business perspective and not in a "oh wow they're trying to help me" perspective for just one moment. From a business standpoint what would they be doing?
Well for starters if you make some "awesome gear" thats the most powerful thing in the game and can only be gotten by gambling away potentially over 100 dollars. People are going to want it, and naturally for the "first batch" they made lots of money. Plan was successful and the customer was happy not caring about the result, after all it was a one time thing right....
Now say about a year later, I want even MORE money from the customer, I could go about this in a bunch of ways, but whats the fastest easiest way? Why Make even STRONGER gear that can be gambled upon for hundreds of dollars per player, Especially since they decreased the chance of getting anything worth while making that gamble all the harder. Now most players will look at their current "top gear in the game" and say "well why do I need this "new gear" if I can already do everything in the game solo, and if I can already compete with every player if I set myself up accordingly....
The business would do the obvious and remove all of what you just stated, essentially make everything that you are "null and void" to some degree forcing you (in some aspects) to purchase keys to continue to gamble fully aware that the playerbase is normally seeking a way to become more powerful in one aspect or another.
This is a very ugly (not elegant) scam kiddos. And for as long as I've been playing this game I and I'm more than sure a handful of others may not be online as often as cryptic would like us to, for some that would be forever, but for me I'd only come on once in a blue moon to talk to people. While SOME of my characters would feel very little change to their builds... others would be destroyed, but I have very little issue with not purchasing better gear and simply "picking up the pieces" I do however; have a problem doing said things in a Ghost town. In an environment with a dead customer base and those that remain being JUSTIFIABLY Disgruntled. Furthermore playing a game with a company that has no respect for its customer-base and instead of doing a good job and trying to improve and add, becoming greedy and removing and destroying.
With the current balance, the only way things can prove to be a challenge is with one-hit kills like Gravitar, Mega D or Cybermind's raining. I didn't mind that content and I am glad we got it, but I also know that "avoid or die" gameplay in level-progression-based games is usually the result of damage inflation.
If all this remains untouched, then the only way to keep content balanced for all play styles is to artifically lower the margin for error. And that will remove the satisfaction of making a build that works, since everyone will be contributing equally and dying equally.
This is a very big IMO, but it's one of my main gripes with CO's current state of powers and mechanics. I really think the power level needs to be toned down to actually make things interesting in the future. A prime example of how we get "fake difficult" content was the Forum Malvanum event. It was balanced based on a skewed power level, and then got an arbitrary time limit, because a player wipe would rarely happen and that's the second best failure state you can go to.
And you can make new awesome content by not touching the balance, that's true, and I might enjoy it, but it will stroke my enjoyment for story and maybe farming. The gameplay will be still fundamentally broken.
You know what my biggest challenge is? Not the content but my teammates. I failed a smash the other day, I was a sole level 40 and the rest were 16 or 17. We didn't even get Val down to a third and I was tanking her the entire time, on a Tank no less. Short of popping a backup (that I didn't have nor want to equip) there was no way to save that pug.
You can't balance a game where you expect to mismatch across so many levels.
When Warlord was running, we got to the point of leaving the lowbie behind. If we cleared the way, and said lowbie still chose to try and fight an unnecessary mob, we eventually just started and finished the warlord fight without. What good is a level 8 gonna do when plenty of level 40s can still struggle.
When I could solo Gravitar on my sniper, it prevented only a handful of wipes. My Charlize solo'd her just for the sake of doing it when the rest of my team wiped. There are quite a few players who have the capacity of completing the most difficult content in this game solo. They also are only a small portion of the player base.
Let's look at the AT side.
My main cursed is decked out more than a typical FF. Full legion, r7s, and devices galore. Her equipment currently allows her to survive longer, but hardly makes her god-like. I simply can gauge how much I can take on and still survive, allowing me to tank as necessary.
Now let's look at my blade. She's WoTW and has MD. She is in full heroic, but lacks in devices only having supernatural possession for a reusable heal and nimbus. Even with MD, her dodge/avoid mitigation isn't enough to make up for her lack in aoe damage and is easily overwhelmed. Even against an alert boss, her lack of healing means I more than likely will have to break off to survive, typically leading to someone else dying.
I can currently play the cursed in most environments because her device tray and top of the line gear allows me to utilize her powerset well beyond normal limitations.
My blade has effectively become a mule. Alert wise, her setup focused on single-target damage is detrimental, and ultimately she's a liability. Where my fully decked out AT can play well with an assortment of teammates, my blade effectively requires my teammates to do the majority of the work and simply provide supplemental damage.
Both use dodge/avoid. Yet, the AT whose powers revolve around dodge/avoid comes no where close to matching the performance of the other whose only dodge/avoid comes from a single legion of agility. It's clearly not dodge/avoid creating the gap in performance.
As someone with extensive AT experience, I can assure you this will impact f2p players across the board. Perhaps losing non paying members may not seem like a concern, and I myself have had no desire to invest a penny in months. However, they also make up a majority of the populace. It's already apparent in the lack of demand of everything on AH that newer players aren't sticking around to buy those items us vets already have.
Even if this incoming dodge/avoid nerf doesn't affect you directly, you'll definitely feel the impact. My friends list continues to get thinner as more people leave. I have spent countless resources upgrading equipment on my alts, only to find out this company time and again is willing to shaft me for the sake of profit. When the prototypes were nerfed into glorified travel powers, even recompense wasn't enough and I left. After months away hoping things had changed, I see it all over again.
In order to market the next lockbox and possible lockbox rewards, they need new gear now. Vehicles alone have failed, as one can tell by the undesired mass of vehicle lockboxes. But as legion gear demand starts to fall, they need a reason for us to "need" new gear.
You know what that "new" planned upcoming content is going to be? More lockboxes. Current dodge/avoid does not prevent new content, its simply an excuse to implement new gear in attempt to jumpstart key sales.
Just ask yourself why certain obvious changes never occur. The flagship alert is an utter failure because they can't make a simple change to the reward. How can you have faith in a company that won't make a simple change to fix content but will go out of their way in order to generate lockbox/key sales?
Hey guys, just want to step in really quick and thank everyone for their feedback. The devs have been poring over it, and they've got some interesting ideas.
This definitely isn't going live this week, we're making sure the final version is perfect. There'll probably be a build on PTS later this week without the changes, so that we can test that build; after that's out of the way, we'll put the changes back on PTS for testing.
Hey guys, just want to step in really quick and thank everyone for their feedback. The devs have been poring over it, and they've got some interesting ideas.
This definitely isn't going live this week, we're making sure the final version is perfect. There'll probably be a build on PTS later this week without the changes, so that we can test that build; after that's out of the way, we'll put the changes back on PTS for testing.
Thanks for stepping in, nice to hear from someone other than ourselves
I assume then that the Justice Gear and these changes are part of the "not going live this week"?
But the rest of the changes (in the other thread) regarding bug fixes are?
Fun fact: TheRavenForce and Gradii together make up 121 (33%) of the 367 messages in this thread.
Fun Fact: I joined this thread around 29 pages in? I've just replied, I'm not looking to flood this forum section, I have just replied to comments, don't rope me in with Gradii, according to you she has only made one point over and over (others have said this too).
Just checked also and it says I have made 28 replies.
I've read up to a certain page, and got a bit tired of a specific person saying the same thing, no offense. I rather post my critical opinion, rather than to just whine...
I kinda of agree that Dodge/Avoidance needed to get nerfed to previous levels for some of the reasons many have mentioned. I do support the nerf TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.
Although I can see why the changes to some of the nerfs are needed, and the slight(?) buff to offense is also needed, the main reason why I don't fully support the changes is because of the real $$ and in-game globals that poured into the game have gone into something that's gone to waste. As some folks a few pages back have noted, what's the point of farming for gear when they'll get nerfed down later on? What's the point of having have spent close to $1,000 in RL money to a game that's just going to ruin the reason why I pumped so much $$ in the first place? Why did you even allow players to even reach high lvls of dodge/crit/sev/ and so on in the first place?!
Not going post much more, as many others have gone into so much detail. However, these changes don't sit well, and are highly discouraging into supporting the game any further.
Is the idea to completely replace Legion Gear with Justice gear? Will Legion Gear be removed from the game altogether? If so, have you thought about how your going to go about it?
Suggestion:
If the idea is to completely weed out Legion Gear, this his how I would go about it...
Step 1) Create a Justice Vendor and add ALL the new Justice Gear to it.
Step 2) Remove all slotted Legion Gear on player characters AND remove the Mods within each piece of gear. Add removed Legion Gear and separated mods into player Overflow Bags.
Step 3) Remove all Legion Gear from the Auction House and return it to the owners.
Step 4) Allow players to Sell Legion Gear to the Justice Vendor for Justice Credits. 1 Piece equals 1 credit.
Step 5) Allow players to purchase the new Justice Gear for 1 credit per piece.
Now players can happily recreate there builds with the new improved gear without getting completely robbed of Time/Effort/and MONEY.
Then go about adding Justice Gear into the new lockboxes from here on out.
*The Suggestion is only valid if your answer to the Questions was Yes.
Also: I tested the Justice peices. Whoo man are they strong. Here's hoping that it takes a lot to get them. Just not a lot of money. I mean like, effort, with lairs and recognition badges and stuff.
what's the point of farming for gear when they'll get nerfed down later on? What's the point of having have spent close to $1,000 in RL money to a game that's just going to ruin the reason why I pumped so much $$ in the first place? Why did you even allow players to even reach high lvls of dodge/crit/sev/ and so on in the first place?!
The same reason countries like Indonesia burn down acres of forests and cause haze pollution for a bountiful harvest every season, after letting the area populate with trees. They let it build up, profit, then start from scratch. What's important is only the profit they can see going into their own pockets.
To those arguing that this discussion is about the mechanics, open your eyes and see the agendas.
They do not care if you leave the game over these changes, the current crop of players and new ones will line their pockets.
And that's just it, you are all merely crops to be harvested.
The same reason countries like Indonesia burn down acres of forests and cause haze pollution for a bountiful harvest every season, after letting the area populate with trees. They let it build up, profit, then start from scratch. What's important is only the profit they can see going into their own pockets.
To those arguing that this discussion is about the mechanics, open your eyes and see the agendas.
They do not care if you leave the game over these changes, the current crop of players and new ones will line their pockets.
And that's just it, you are all merely crops to be harvested.
That's probably why I'm all right with these changes: all my keys were bought with G's or Q when I wasn't too lazy to farm it.
I'd like to think Justice Gear is coming with new tiers of Alerts/lairs, but it probably isn't. One can only hope they'll be put into the Q store: it could sure use some love about now.
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[thread=139701]My old, old guide for Ego Blades. Updated for On: Alert.[/thread]
[thread=154211]The Costume Contest Schedule. Stay up-to-date without having to log in![/thread]
Thanks for stepping in, nice to hear from someone other than ourselves
I assume then that the Justice Gear and these changes are part of the "not going live this week"?
But the rest of the changes (in the other thread) regarding bug fixes are?
Mostly correct. I haven't read the list of bug fixes, but yep, the plan is for a bug fix patch in the short-term (probaby this week/next week), and the balance changes in the mid-term.
do not roll back. do you know how many people would leave? how many rosters it would DESTROY? how many characters ruined? lets find a REASONABLE solution please.
DOOM! GLOOM! This will kill the game! Galactus is nigh! This is the sort of thing you're doing here in this thread and earlier today in game. Your spin-doctoring and sensationalizing will have more of a negative impact on the game than the PTS adjustments you're denouncing. It's completely unreasonable jump to conclusions like that based solely on the initial findings we've been presented with here so far.
You know what does sounds reasonable? Dialing back the crazy for a few days and waiting to see how this pans out. Doing more testing, presenting our numbers and feedback in a civil manner and making well informed suggestions is our best bet(not a sure bet) to seeing the math adjusted to something less severe.
you pick a defensive passive not to be mediocre but to be TANKY.
You pick a defensive passive if your theme or preferred playstyle emphasizes defense over offense. Current defensive passive characters have the potential to out perform offensive builds of the past.
NO. why can't anyone see how theme killing this is??!
Those themes were possible and worked just fine before dodge gear was added and before Quarry/WotW, etc provided dodge buffs. The reason no one can see that it kills themes is because it doesn't. Such is a fabrication.
I was originally going to point out how awesome my job is, how big my house is, and how bad it is to make assumptions that people are addicts and not just nice people with some money who want to see everyone get a fair shake at this new gear. Point out that it'd create another artificial power gap, like we *just* fixed with the devices, if it's in lockbox form.
Instead, I'll just give you the synopsis and suggest that you don't know a single thing about any of the people complaining about this. I give most of my legions away to friends anymore. I buy keys because I want to see the game survive. And I want to see an even distribution model that favors effort, because it'll help the game feel less pay to win and give people a reason to play.
If you're one of those people who thinks "I'll just spend G", ask yourself how they got there in the first place. That's right, those "gambling addicts".
God, in any other mmo, they'd just call us supporters and be done with it.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
Ive tested and used used LR going back to before the game launched. I have spent over 1000 hours on PTS testing alone. Then there is actual in game time testing and playing.
I don't care about your opinion anymore, since mine seems to mean nothing to you anyway.
I value your opinion. There needs to be two sides in a discussion. I do, however, not value the decision to make false statements as fact. You make claims that are completely false.
stop the ganging up on me and get back to suggesting decent alternatives to this awful way of implementing the balancing.
Providing factual counters to inaccurate, misleading, or false claims is not picking on you. It is participation in the discussion. If you don't want absolutely false claims stated as fact to be shown as mistaken or inaccurate...don't make them.
capping dodge could work instead, or simply nerfing just avoidance. those are 2 very good suggestions, were you even paying attention?
I find the idea of a dodge hardcap using existing live D/A numbers to be a horrible idea. Disagreeing with you does not mean that I am not paying attention. The most common source of balance issues in CO has always been synergies between powers feeding into a common mechanic. Modifying the DR model for something like dodge is a much better way, IMO, of handling that than hard caps. A hard cap makes the distinction between an offensive and a defensive passive moot. A very bad idea IMO.
The concept of dodge being a more set value while avoidance is the variable is interesting. Other defensive mechanics don't face the extra layer of RNG that dodge does.
Personally I have always preferred, in concept at least, the idea of dodge being the variable and avoidance being absolute (if you dodge the attack you take no damage). Of course dodge % would have to be controlled in such a hypothetical situation. In such a situation something like a 60% dodge chance would mean 60% true mitigation. Numbers would have to be balanced against the performance of other defenses of course.
Personally, I like the idea of a dodge/glancing blow/hit system. If you get a full dodge, you take no damage. If you get 75% of your dodge or higher? The blow skipped off, use the avoidance number. If you get below that? Sorry, you weren't fast enough.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
If you're one of those people who thinks "I'll just spend G", ask yourself how they got there in the first place. That's right, those "gambling addicts".
God, in any other mmo, they'd just call us supporters and be done with it.
That is actually entirely different from what Cheese was saying. That was a direct jab at people whining about how the changes make the gear they spent sooo much money on useless, not at the ones buying to keep the game afloat. What Cheese was saying, is that it's their own fault they wasted resources on said gear. It shouldn't matter or apply to you if you spent money on the keys to keep the game running, because you aren't gambling for the best gear in-game. Therefore meaning you have no reason to whine about it.
That is actually entirely different from what Cheese was saying. That was a direct jab at people whining about how the changes make the gear they spent sooo much money on useless, not at the ones buying to keep the game afloat. What Cheese was saying, is that it's their own fault they wasted resources on said gear. It shouldn't matter or apply to you if you spent money on the keys to keep the game running, because you aren't gambling for the best gear in-game. Therefore meaning you have no reason to whine about it.
Your two stereotypes, people who 'wasted' their money on the gear, and people who spent money in support of the game, need not necessarily be separate. Hence, the feeling of betrayal or resentment.
I was originally going to point out how awesome my job is, how big my house is, and how bad it is to make assumptions that people are addicts and not just nice people with some money who want to see everyone get a fair shake at this new gear. Point out that it'd create another artificial power gap, like we *just* fixed with the devices, if it's in lockbox form.
Instead, I'll just give you the synopsis and suggest that you don't know a single thing about any of the people complaining about this. I give most of my legions away to friends anymore. I buy keys because I want to see the game survive. And I want to see an even distribution model that favors effort, because it'll help the game feel less pay to win and give people a reason to play.
If you're one of those people who thinks "I'll just spend G", ask yourself how they got there in the first place. That's right, those "gambling addicts".
God, in any other mmo, they'd just call us supporters and be done with it.
Well, if you purchase keys to support the game, then the joke doesn't apply to you.
That said, I wouldn't spend G. Mainly because I think Heroic gear is better in the sense that the Offense/Defense is higher, thus more delicious Guardicator looping. Plus, you don't have to Gamble for it! Hey, at least the people that DO want the legion primaries can get the ones they like for hundreds of Globals. Or, evidently, as free gifts from someone such as yourself.
Now I, too, would like to see things earned in-game. It would be a lovely thing, wouldn't it? Where you don't have to Gamble for the 'best' gear. Though at least if they're going in lockboxes, we can have more people support the developers.
That is actually entirely different from what Cheese was saying. That was a direct jab at people whining about how the changes make the gear they spent sooo much money on useless, not at the ones buying to keep the game afloat. What Cheese was saying, is that it's their own fault they wasted resources on said gear. It shouldn't matter or apply to you if you spent money on the keys to keep the game running, because you aren't gambling for the best gear in-game. Therefore meaning you have no reason to whine about it.
Many of us did spend money to keep the game afloat, but then the company sent the money to STO and NWO.
The same reason countries like Indonesia burn down acres of forests and cause haze pollution for a bountiful harvest every season, after letting the area populate with trees. They let it build up, profit, then start from scratch. What's important is only the profit they can see going into their own pockets.
To those arguing that this discussion is about the mechanics, open your eyes and see the agendas.
They do not care if you leave the game over these changes, the current crop of players and new ones will line their pockets.
And that's just it, you are all merely crops to be harvested.
So racist! Blame the unethical farmers, not the whole country :P
Anyway it's pretty clear the objective of this is indeed not for balance but to make way for a new set of gear.
This change is actually kind of disappointing because On Alert was supposed to pave the way for endgame, but it seems like not even 2 years on, and with only 1 tier of new gear introduced - Legion gear, the equations in place already can't support endgame gear progression.
When designing MMO systems, power creep should always be accounted for. Especially with mechanics that function in a space of 0% to 100% like Dodge and Crit, you can't just let characters hit 100% from the outset and expect desirable itemization to magically happen down the road.
And the worst part is that the biggest offenders aren't the gear but the powers that give flat bonuses, and those aren't being touched.
I cancelled my sub and took a break hoping there would be interesting stuff to come back to, but when I see the game still struggling with what should have been done 2 years ago with a supposed "endgame" update, or even 4 years ago at conception rather than putting out interesting new content, it's really demoralizing.
Now I, too, would like to see things earned in-game. It would be a lovely thing, wouldn't it? Where you don't have to Gamble for the 'best' gear.
Earning the gear is a lot better than wasting away money getting it, only to have it outdated later on down the road. Plus it gives you a reason to ACTUALLY play the game again.
Nerfing the Dodge and Avoidance RATING curves when the problems are actual flat % adders like Evasive Maneuvers and Thundering Kicks is terrible. It makes gearing for Dodge completely unviable, while not actually affecting 100% dodge builds IN THE SLIGHTEST.
And if you're going to adjust the Severity mechanics, for the love of gods make the UI values actually accurate; i.e. DISPLAY THE SEVERITY WE WILL ACTUALLY HAVE.
While I'm somewhat happy the the devs are doing things, I'd still like to know when all the old powers are going to get a look and brought up to speed.
Hey guys, just want to step in really quick and thank everyone for their feedback. The devs have been poring over it, and they've got some interesting ideas.
This definitely isn't going live this week, we're making sure the final version is perfect. There'll probably be a build on PTS later this week without the changes, so that we can test that build; after that's out of the way, we'll put the changes back on PTS for testing.
Awesome news. More bugs getting fixed.
As for the ongoing discussion, given that the current status in the PTS seems to be broken (LR in primis), it is hard to judge. The new gear is powerful, but how it will be put into the game will be critical. Of course less "gambling" and more effort in lairs, as seveveral suggested, would be the best. Also having an option to upgrade current gear as well would leave those that invested in Legion less angry/sad/...
The Dodge/Avoidance system can be touched in several ways. The cool thing is that you have two values to work with (Dodge/Avoid) to find a good spot. Nevertheless, FULL investment into it (via powers AND gear) should give very good results. Tone it down a bit, but leave it as a viable defensive path. The bad thing of the current state of the game is that you can reach high levels of dodge just with little investment... yeah the opposite of PFF
Once the rating curve has been fixed and finalized, the powers dealing with dodge need a pass. Being a surface you can choose several shapes and model it in more ways than a simple curve. Making the two variables have different returns could be interesting as well, and it would interact well with the current mechanics. A smaller investment into Dodge/Avoidance could let you choose if you want to dodge often and get hit harder (for Resurgent Reiki) or to avoid completely a few blows.
Overall, I think Dodge+Avoidance damage mitigation should start increasing linearly and then level a bit and then at the highest ratings go up again. I.e. greens should see no DR, blues should let you reach the plateu, purples should get you higher, but still a bit less than current levels. Then, if you slot two or three powers on top of the best gear (EM, MD, unarmed attacks, Quarry, WotW, NW,...) you could reach the current levels. In this way with the lowest level gear and mods you get a reasonable return, but unless you get good gear it becomes harder to get good results out of gear alone.
As for the specific powers:
-MD should give some reward for ranking it up. The numbers as they stand seem too high for R1.
-The offensive passives, EM, the unarmed powers should give you D/A ratings.
-LR should not suffer from the nerfed ratings and %.
As a test to see the necessity of Dodge and Crit, I tried on Live to strip all Dodge/Avoidance gear on a lvl.38 behemot-based hero (Defiance/Enrage) to boost Offense/Defense via specs and ordinary gear (blue gear and rank4 mods). Given the specs D/A and Crit/Severity were at the base levels (Dex 13). Heading to the Mega-D event, I survived fine, even without joining a group, as long as I was paying attention to block big attacks. I even managed to get into the top 20. Trying to tank one was impossible, even with MD, as expected.
______________________________________________________________ My Characters
YOU CAN STILL GET 98% DODGE WITH QUARRY EM AND LEAD TEMPEST.
I*snip*.
Thats ok, since you've pointed these out to the Devs, repeatedly on this thread, they should get nerfed too. That was very helpful of you.
Now they don't have to wait for it to go live, to find out that that combination still gives high dodge.
Edit: Oh, if you are wondering on my true opinion on the current metagame changes:
You gave us 'heroes' too much power in On-Alert for far too long. How can you possibly bring us back to mortality without driving us to the brink of insanity?
Another thing you need to consider is that in On-Alert you allowed people to buy the 'best' gear with real money. I mean sure it was a gamble and you are protected with the ToS but any changes no matter how minor-sever will leave a sour taste in their mouth as well as their pockets.
At any rate, "If you build it, he will come". I hope someone gets the reference..
Comments
There was another significant change pre On Alert in the F2P patch (I think that's what it was).
I'll try and summarise
The old days
Passive strength depended on specific Stats for example Shadow Form depended on End and Con to gain decent attacking and defensive bonus. We only had two SS to choose back in the day.
This meant that I could build a Dex/End Darkness toon but some of what I gained in crits would be lost in Passive strength defence or offence, maybe both. Invulnerable depended on Str and Int, if you didn't have them it would be less effective. Crit strength depended on your ego value and you didn't need much to get high crit values.
Gear - Main pieces had two or sometimes three values (no crit chance or cost reduction in those days) However they favoured specific stats per type of piece.
For example a Primary Offence gave Str, Dex or Rec as it's main stat. Primary Defence gave Con, Pre or equal of both. Primary Utilities had End, Int and Ego (?) but they also gave a secondary value and we also had 6 secondary slots to make up for it.
Dodge gear could be had but it was rare, not totally unknown but it cost Gs to get the best stuff and you would sacrifice the main stat (I think) for increased dodge.
Dodge worked differently pre and for a while post On Alert. Dodge chance used to be doubled against attacks taking 2 seconds, remain the same against 1 sec attacks and was halved against attacks taking .5 secs. Elite mobs had 40 - 50% dodge chance even the small ones so the only thing you saw in elite lairs was high power maintains and the odd tap spam. Power up attacks were seriously nerfed in the old game.
Having changed Passives to feeding on SS for their strength suprise suprise there was a lot of Crit building all of a sudden. For a while the only way to build a ranged tank was to use enrage (only form that really buffed ranged attacks) which depended on Str and then we got Concentration and the Enrage nerf.
Very sorry bout inaccuracies where they occur it's been a looooong time.
I mentioned in another thread rather bitterly that I would like em to roll back to pre On Alert. I will ammend that by saying I would like em to roll back to pre F2P. While there was certainly power building there was also a lot more compromise involved with toons, I have a build that could only exist post On Alert. It has high crit rate, defensive passive and the ability to alpha strike and sustain several force cascades whilst using travel power.
I got problems with LR being made utterly worthless all of a sudden but hey if you wanna give us a massive nerf then let's just ****ing roll back! On Alert combined with F2P trivialised content in a game that plenty said was too easy anyhow.
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
Clarification: why did I do fine without any of that before On Alert hit?
Before On Alert, there was no crit gear, and you had to sacrifice stats to get dodge. In a game without spec trees, that was a very big deal.
Yet, the playerbase did fine. Some did better than fine, and managed to adapt sufficiently.
The new numbers will probably be about the same as pre-on alert levels, which were still quite reasonable. For now, I recommend waiting to see if Cryptic fixes dodge scaling (seeing as that appears to be bugged) and letting this go through several iterations before raising a humongous stink.
You know, maybe this is why the devs don't communicate more often: they allow us to preview changes like this and we lose our freaking minds. I sure wouldn't want to communicate with this crowd if knee-jerk DOOM AND GLOOM was the default response.
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[thread=139701]My old, old guide for Ego Blades. Updated for On: Alert.[/thread]
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In the past dodge scaled depending on charge time, the longer a power was charged the higher the dodge chance. If I remember correctly on-alert was when that was changed.
The problem with that was invulnerability builds, the low damage tap powers were mitigated by invulnerability and the high damage charge powers by dodge. The dodge rating/chance curves were the same as they are now I think, but the numbers were lower.
One of the biggest problems with dodge are the flat dodge percentages, things EM, quarry and thundering kicks. Without a flat dodge bonus, LR is quite bad, probably the worst out of any passive, of course the problem is that these things are not useful only for LR but for all builds. So that is the thing that needs to be changed, just changing all the flat bonuses to rating would fix most things related to dodge, but the curve could use a little lowering too.
This would make LR rather useless, so give LR a flat percentage bonus, and keep that unique to LR.
But there are more problems besides dodge, if dodge gets changed, but things like stat/spec/power balance are left alone there will never be any sort of balance. Like things are now on PTS, is not going to fix anything, just make other options the FOTM choices.
If things like dps and healing would get balanced against some baselines, range, mobility, utility, etc, we could see 'how these adjustments feel at at all levels of gameplay'. Right now... well my TGM character still feels severely overpowered, with that new gear maybe even more so then on live, dodge bugs or no.
I really hope the devs are planning a LOT more balance changes, these just don't change all that much besides breaking some builds, and giving even more dps.. like we needed that.
As I said before, I hate feeling less and less super in a super hero game.
It is also why I miss the old Imbue. I could care less about balance, course I care even less for PVP.
BUT, it is in fact Cryptics game. SO I will shut up now.
Again, thanks to those who are better testers than I, and thanks for running the numbers
Great idea, just make the powers I want to use at this time overpowered then, don't forget to change them when I relog of course.
Let me guess, you are a fan of pistols....
If you don't care for balance this thread is not for you.
If you are doing an event and you see more then 50% of all ranged builds using the same powers something is wrong, clearly other people do care about how well powers perform.
Now, I get it. Some of you claim to be building 'for concept', and I get that, I totally do. I sympathize with you all and I totally agree that nerfing dodge will put a dent in your builds. However, acting like this? When the changes aren't even set in stone? And are on the PTS? For testing? Yeah, uh, those numbers are (Hopefully) gunna change. Why do you think something like the Thunderbolt Lunge disable got changed, or any of the powers that got adjusted? People tested, people gave feedback(or in a lot of cases, cried), things were altered.
Let's pretend this change goes through. Let's also pretend that all the dodge mechanics are altered to reasonable values, like LR having 50-65% dodge chance, Quarry being a bit better or worse, WotW having about the same or more than Quarry. Your character is agile and dodges? Take one of the passives that give the dodge. There, simple, your character can dodge.
Also, you want to feel super and take all the hits and be the last one standing? Great, you can do that too, but you're going to sacrifice a few things in order to achieve that. Less damage, more healing or more defensive measures. Active Defenses, specific Specializations, all that jazz. You'll get what you want. This, however, is beyond some people.
You all got so used to slapping on a dodge primary, using BCR and suddenly being able to take twice the hits. That is not balanced. In fact, you all say "RAISE THE MOB DIFFICULTY". I took off my character's dodge gear, gave it no dodge abilities whatsoever, and filled in the gaps with some defensive powers. Suddenly the game was a bit harder, but I could still take on a 5 man, Hard conned group of Purple Gang in the PH. I had to use all of my abilities, pay attention to what was going on, react accordingly. To me, that is more difficult. Not to mention feels like I'm playing a game.
Standing there and dodging everything and never having to even pay attention is not mine, and I'm sure it isn't the Devs view of what this game should be like.
You want to feel super? Make a build that can survive without a crutch.
You want to steamroll everything to powerlevel, farm costume pieces, ezmode Open Missions? Buy a vehicle. Or better yet, group with people. You know, get a Brick, with a healer maybe, and you can sit back and watch as all your wonderful big, yellow numbers go up.
You know, like a MMO. Where you play with people.
An attitude like that is toxic to a game's environment. While "perfect balance" remains the holy grail of game design, that does not mean that the developers should not strive for it. "It's a superhero game" is a flimsy justification not to; by that logic, certain fantasy games shouldn't strive for balance because "they're fantasy games, they shouldn't bother because wizards should be able to just nuke everything/warriors should be able to cleave through anything because fantasy", and sci-fi MMO's shouldn't either because "they're science fiction; they're above such petty concepts as balance".
This is a game first, and as it stands there are power and gear selections that are, objectively speaking, better choices within their respective tiers. That isn't good for the game or the playerbase; players that don't like those selections and do not take them will be objectively worse than others.
You've made your point: you like the status quo on player power and want new content. The problem is, the Forum Malvanum, Gravitar, the Mega-D even, and Cybermind are necessary to challenge players. And even they aren't enough; I've witnessed players consistently surviving Gravitar's Yellow Bubble of Doom.
Heals, damage, dodge, and cooldown and damage reduction are all horridly skewed in the players' favor, and that gap only widens as the players gear up and finalize their power and spec choices. It's so easy for healers to heal all of a player's wounds (both via self-healing and from external sources like other players), that the only real danger in missions can be introduced via timers or instant-death mechanics. And when actual failure conditions exist, people still whine and complain.
On Alert increased player power significantly without giving a similar boost to the mobs. Adjusting player power to be within more reasonable levels will allow them to design content that, hopefully, doesn't have the instant-death mechanics certain individuals (not naming names) appear to loathe. If this does lead to more content, I'm all for it. Anything to give me a reason to log onto my level 40 characters is good in my book.
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[thread=139701]My old, old guide for Ego Blades. Updated for On: Alert.[/thread]
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I'm guessing this extra bonus is a bug. If not, I'm able to get Defiance-like defense from Juggernaut from a nearly 600 CON.
Not that I'd be against the higher stats if we had epic content to challenge us at that range of ability, but all we have is Gravitar and a few lairs.
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
Well for starters if you make some "awesome gear" thats the most powerful thing in the game and can only be gotten by gambling away potentially over 100 dollars. People are going to want it, and naturally for the "first batch" they made lots of money. Plan was successful and the customer was happy not caring about the result, after all it was a one time thing right....
Now say about a year later, I want even MORE money from the customer, I could go about this in a bunch of ways, but whats the fastest easiest way? Why Make even STRONGER gear that can be gambled upon for hundreds of dollars per player, Especially since they decreased the chance of getting anything worth while making that gamble all the harder. Now most players will look at their current "top gear in the game" and say "well why do I need this "new gear" if I can already do everything in the game solo, and if I can already compete with every player if I set myself up accordingly....
The business would do the obvious and remove all of what you just stated, essentially make everything that you are "null and void" to some degree forcing you (in some aspects) to purchase keys to continue to gamble fully aware that the playerbase is normally seeking a way to become more powerful in one aspect or another.
This is a very ugly (not elegant) scam kiddos. And for as long as I've been playing this game I and I'm more than sure a handful of others may not be online as often as cryptic would like us to, for some that would be forever, but for me I'd only come on once in a blue moon to talk to people. While SOME of my characters would feel very little change to their builds... others would be destroyed, but I have very little issue with not purchasing better gear and simply "picking up the pieces" I do however; have a problem doing said things in a Ghost town. In an environment with a dead customer base and those that remain being JUSTIFIABLY Disgruntled. Furthermore playing a game with a company that has no respect for its customer-base and instead of doing a good job and trying to improve and add, becoming greedy and removing and destroying.
You know what my biggest challenge is? Not the content but my teammates. I failed a smash the other day, I was a sole level 40 and the rest were 16 or 17. We didn't even get Val down to a third and I was tanking her the entire time, on a Tank no less. Short of popping a backup (that I didn't have nor want to equip) there was no way to save that pug.
You can't balance a game where you expect to mismatch across so many levels.
When Warlord was running, we got to the point of leaving the lowbie behind. If we cleared the way, and said lowbie still chose to try and fight an unnecessary mob, we eventually just started and finished the warlord fight without. What good is a level 8 gonna do when plenty of level 40s can still struggle.
When I could solo Gravitar on my sniper, it prevented only a handful of wipes. My Charlize solo'd her just for the sake of doing it when the rest of my team wiped. There are quite a few players who have the capacity of completing the most difficult content in this game solo. They also are only a small portion of the player base.
Let's look at the AT side.
My main cursed is decked out more than a typical FF. Full legion, r7s, and devices galore. Her equipment currently allows her to survive longer, but hardly makes her god-like. I simply can gauge how much I can take on and still survive, allowing me to tank as necessary.
Now let's look at my blade. She's WoTW and has MD. She is in full heroic, but lacks in devices only having supernatural possession for a reusable heal and nimbus. Even with MD, her dodge/avoid mitigation isn't enough to make up for her lack in aoe damage and is easily overwhelmed. Even against an alert boss, her lack of healing means I more than likely will have to break off to survive, typically leading to someone else dying.
I can currently play the cursed in most environments because her device tray and top of the line gear allows me to utilize her powerset well beyond normal limitations.
My blade has effectively become a mule. Alert wise, her setup focused on single-target damage is detrimental, and ultimately she's a liability. Where my fully decked out AT can play well with an assortment of teammates, my blade effectively requires my teammates to do the majority of the work and simply provide supplemental damage.
Both use dodge/avoid. Yet, the AT whose powers revolve around dodge/avoid comes no where close to matching the performance of the other whose only dodge/avoid comes from a single legion of agility. It's clearly not dodge/avoid creating the gap in performance.
As someone with extensive AT experience, I can assure you this will impact f2p players across the board. Perhaps losing non paying members may not seem like a concern, and I myself have had no desire to invest a penny in months. However, they also make up a majority of the populace. It's already apparent in the lack of demand of everything on AH that newer players aren't sticking around to buy those items us vets already have.
Even if this incoming dodge/avoid nerf doesn't affect you directly, you'll definitely feel the impact. My friends list continues to get thinner as more people leave. I have spent countless resources upgrading equipment on my alts, only to find out this company time and again is willing to shaft me for the sake of profit. When the prototypes were nerfed into glorified travel powers, even recompense wasn't enough and I left. After months away hoping things had changed, I see it all over again.
In order to market the next lockbox and possible lockbox rewards, they need new gear now. Vehicles alone have failed, as one can tell by the undesired mass of vehicle lockboxes. But as legion gear demand starts to fall, they need a reason for us to "need" new gear.
You know what that "new" planned upcoming content is going to be? More lockboxes. Current dodge/avoid does not prevent new content, its simply an excuse to implement new gear in attempt to jumpstart key sales.
Just ask yourself why certain obvious changes never occur. The flagship alert is an utter failure because they can't make a simple change to the reward. How can you have faith in a company that won't make a simple change to fix content but will go out of their way in order to generate lockbox/key sales?
This definitely isn't going live this week, we're making sure the final version is perfect. There'll probably be a build on PTS later this week without the changes, so that we can test that build; after that's out of the way, we'll put the changes back on PTS for testing.
Thanks for stepping in, nice to hear from someone other than ourselves
I assume then that the Justice Gear and these changes are part of the "not going live this week"?
But the rest of the changes (in the other thread) regarding bug fixes are?
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Fun Fact: I joined this thread around 29 pages in? I've just replied, I'm not looking to flood this forum section, I have just replied to comments, don't rope me in with Gradii, according to you she has only made one point over and over (others have said this too).
Just checked also and it says I have made 28 replies.
Also says gradii has made 94
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I kinda of agree that Dodge/Avoidance needed to get nerfed to previous levels for some of the reasons many have mentioned. I do support the nerf TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.
Although I can see why the changes to some of the nerfs are needed, and the slight(?) buff to offense is also needed, the main reason why I don't fully support the changes is because of the real $$ and in-game globals that poured into the game have gone into something that's gone to waste. As some folks a few pages back have noted, what's the point of farming for gear when they'll get nerfed down later on? What's the point of having have spent close to $1,000 in RL money to a game that's just going to ruin the reason why I pumped so much $$ in the first place? Why did you even allow players to even reach high lvls of dodge/crit/sev/ and so on in the first place?!
Not going post much more, as many others have gone into so much detail. However, these changes don't sit well, and are highly discouraging into supporting the game any further.
Light Star Alliance (my toons with build guides & videos)
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Is the idea to completely replace Legion Gear with Justice gear? Will Legion Gear be removed from the game altogether? If so, have you thought about how your going to go about it?
Suggestion:
If the idea is to completely weed out Legion Gear, this his how I would go about it...
Step 1) Create a Justice Vendor and add ALL the new Justice Gear to it.
Step 2) Remove all slotted Legion Gear on player characters AND remove the Mods within each piece of gear. Add removed Legion Gear and separated mods into player Overflow Bags.
Step 3) Remove all Legion Gear from the Auction House and return it to the owners.
Step 4) Allow players to Sell Legion Gear to the Justice Vendor for Justice Credits. 1 Piece equals 1 credit.
Step 5) Allow players to purchase the new Justice Gear for 1 credit per piece.
Now players can happily recreate there builds with the new improved gear without getting completely robbed of Time/Effort/and MONEY.
Then go about adding Justice Gear into the new lockboxes from here on out.
*The Suggestion is only valid if your answer to the Questions was Yes.
http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/ga/
Also: I tested the Justice peices. Whoo man are they strong. Here's hoping that it takes a lot to get them. Just not a lot of money. I mean like, effort, with lairs and recognition badges and stuff.
The same reason countries like Indonesia burn down acres of forests and cause haze pollution for a bountiful harvest every season, after letting the area populate with trees. They let it build up, profit, then start from scratch. What's important is only the profit they can see going into their own pockets.
To those arguing that this discussion is about the mechanics, open your eyes and see the agendas.
They do not care if you leave the game over these changes, the current crop of players and new ones will line their pockets.
And that's just it, you are all merely crops to be harvested.
That's probably why I'm all right with these changes: all my keys were bought with G's or Q when I wasn't too lazy to farm it.
I'd like to think Justice Gear is coming with new tiers of Alerts/lairs, but it probably isn't. One can only hope they'll be put into the Q store: it could sure use some love about now.
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[thread=139701]My old, old guide for Ego Blades. Updated for On: Alert.[/thread]
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Mostly correct. I haven't read the list of bug fixes, but yep, the plan is for a bug fix patch in the short-term (probaby this week/next week), and the balance changes in the mid-term.
DOOM! GLOOM! This will kill the game! Galactus is nigh! This is the sort of thing you're doing here in this thread and earlier today in game. Your spin-doctoring and sensationalizing will have more of a negative impact on the game than the PTS adjustments you're denouncing. It's completely unreasonable jump to conclusions like that based solely on the initial findings we've been presented with here so far.
You know what does sounds reasonable? Dialing back the crazy for a few days and waiting to see how this pans out. Doing more testing, presenting our numbers and feedback in a civil manner and making well informed suggestions is our best bet(not a sure bet) to seeing the math adjusted to something less severe.
This is inaccurate. Ask Kenpo about his LR demonstrations.
You pick a defensive passive if your theme or preferred playstyle emphasizes defense over offense. Current defensive passive characters have the potential to out perform offensive builds of the past.
This is completely inaccurate.
Those themes were possible and worked just fine before dodge gear was added and before Quarry/WotW, etc provided dodge buffs. The reason no one can see that it kills themes is because it doesn't. Such is a fabrication.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I was originally going to point out how awesome my job is, how big my house is, and how bad it is to make assumptions that people are addicts and not just nice people with some money who want to see everyone get a fair shake at this new gear. Point out that it'd create another artificial power gap, like we *just* fixed with the devices, if it's in lockbox form.
Instead, I'll just give you the synopsis and suggest that you don't know a single thing about any of the people complaining about this. I give most of my legions away to friends anymore. I buy keys because I want to see the game survive. And I want to see an even distribution model that favors effort, because it'll help the game feel less pay to win and give people a reason to play.
If you're one of those people who thinks "I'll just spend G", ask yourself how they got there in the first place. That's right, those "gambling addicts".
God, in any other mmo, they'd just call us supporters and be done with it.
RIP Caine
Incorrect. I built such before it became the in thing to do for characters that would never die.
Ive tested and used used LR going back to before the game launched. I have spent over 1000 hours on PTS testing alone. Then there is actual in game time testing and playing.
I value your opinion. There needs to be two sides in a discussion. I do, however, not value the decision to make false statements as fact. You make claims that are completely false.
Providing factual counters to inaccurate, misleading, or false claims is not picking on you. It is participation in the discussion. If you don't want absolutely false claims stated as fact to be shown as mistaken or inaccurate...don't make them.
I find the idea of a dodge hardcap using existing live D/A numbers to be a horrible idea. Disagreeing with you does not mean that I am not paying attention. The most common source of balance issues in CO has always been synergies between powers feeding into a common mechanic. Modifying the DR model for something like dodge is a much better way, IMO, of handling that than hard caps. A hard cap makes the distinction between an offensive and a defensive passive moot. A very bad idea IMO.
The concept of dodge being a more set value while avoidance is the variable is interesting. Other defensive mechanics don't face the extra layer of RNG that dodge does.
Personally I have always preferred, in concept at least, the idea of dodge being the variable and avoidance being absolute (if you dodge the attack you take no damage). Of course dodge % would have to be controlled in such a hypothetical situation. In such a situation something like a 60% dodge chance would mean 60% true mitigation. Numbers would have to be balanced against the performance of other defenses of course.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
RIP Caine
That is actually entirely different from what Cheese was saying. That was a direct jab at people whining about how the changes make the gear they spent sooo much money on useless, not at the ones buying to keep the game afloat. What Cheese was saying, is that it's their own fault they wasted resources on said gear. It shouldn't matter or apply to you if you spent money on the keys to keep the game running, because you aren't gambling for the best gear in-game. Therefore meaning you have no reason to whine about it.
Your two stereotypes, people who 'wasted' their money on the gear, and people who spent money in support of the game, need not necessarily be separate. Hence, the feeling of betrayal or resentment.
Well, if you purchase keys to support the game, then the joke doesn't apply to you.
That said, I wouldn't spend G. Mainly because I think Heroic gear is better in the sense that the Offense/Defense is higher, thus more delicious Guardicator looping. Plus, you don't have to Gamble for it! Hey, at least the people that DO want the legion primaries can get the ones they like for hundreds of Globals. Or, evidently, as free gifts from someone such as yourself.
Now I, too, would like to see things earned in-game. It would be a lovely thing, wouldn't it? Where you don't have to Gamble for the 'best' gear. Though at least if they're going in lockboxes, we can have more people support the developers.
Many of us did spend money to keep the game afloat, but then the company sent the money to STO and NWO.
So racist! Blame the unethical farmers, not the whole country :P
Anyway it's pretty clear the objective of this is indeed not for balance but to make way for a new set of gear.
This change is actually kind of disappointing because On Alert was supposed to pave the way for endgame, but it seems like not even 2 years on, and with only 1 tier of new gear introduced - Legion gear, the equations in place already can't support endgame gear progression.
When designing MMO systems, power creep should always be accounted for. Especially with mechanics that function in a space of 0% to 100% like Dodge and Crit, you can't just let characters hit 100% from the outset and expect desirable itemization to magically happen down the road.
And the worst part is that the biggest offenders aren't the gear but the powers that give flat bonuses, and those aren't being touched.
I cancelled my sub and took a break hoping there would be interesting stuff to come back to, but when I see the game still struggling with what should have been done 2 years ago with a supposed "endgame" update, or even 4 years ago at conception rather than putting out interesting new content, it's really demoralizing.
Earning the gear is a lot better than wasting away money getting it, only to have it outdated later on down the road. Plus it gives you a reason to ACTUALLY play the game again.
And if you're going to adjust the Severity mechanics, for the love of gods make the UI values actually accurate; i.e. DISPLAY THE SEVERITY WE WILL ACTUALLY HAVE.
Awesome news. More bugs getting fixed.
As for the ongoing discussion, given that the current status in the PTS seems to be broken (LR in primis), it is hard to judge. The new gear is powerful, but how it will be put into the game will be critical. Of course less "gambling" and more effort in lairs, as seveveral suggested, would be the best. Also having an option to upgrade current gear as well would leave those that invested in Legion less angry/sad/...
The Dodge/Avoidance system can be touched in several ways. The cool thing is that you have two values to work with (Dodge/Avoid) to find a good spot. Nevertheless, FULL investment into it (via powers AND gear) should give very good results. Tone it down a bit, but leave it as a viable defensive path. The bad thing of the current state of the game is that you can reach high levels of dodge just with little investment... yeah the opposite of PFF
Once the rating curve has been fixed and finalized, the powers dealing with dodge need a pass. Being a surface you can choose several shapes and model it in more ways than a simple curve. Making the two variables have different returns could be interesting as well, and it would interact well with the current mechanics. A smaller investment into Dodge/Avoidance could let you choose if you want to dodge often and get hit harder (for Resurgent Reiki) or to avoid completely a few blows.
Overall, I think Dodge+Avoidance damage mitigation should start increasing linearly and then level a bit and then at the highest ratings go up again. I.e. greens should see no DR, blues should let you reach the plateu, purples should get you higher, but still a bit less than current levels. Then, if you slot two or three powers on top of the best gear (EM, MD, unarmed attacks, Quarry, WotW, NW,...) you could reach the current levels. In this way with the lowest level gear and mods you get a reasonable return, but unless you get good gear it becomes harder to get good results out of gear alone.
As for the specific powers:
-MD should give some reward for ranking it up. The numbers as they stand seem too high for R1.
-The offensive passives, EM, the unarmed powers should give you D/A ratings.
-LR should not suffer from the nerfed ratings and %.
As a test to see the necessity of Dodge and Crit, I tried on Live to strip all Dodge/Avoidance gear on a lvl.38 behemot-based hero (Defiance/Enrage) to boost Offense/Defense via specs and ordinary gear (blue gear and rank4 mods). Given the specs D/A and Crit/Severity were at the base levels (Dex 13). Heading to the Mega-D event, I survived fine, even without joining a group, as long as I was paying attention to block big attacks. I even managed to get into the top 20. Trying to tank one was impossible, even with MD, as expected.
My Characters
Thats ok, since you've pointed these out to the Devs, repeatedly on this thread, they should get nerfed too. That was very helpful of you.
Now they don't have to wait for it to go live, to find out that that combination still gives high dodge.
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Dexterity's Scaling
Live|Dexterity|PTS
0.13% 5 2.2%
4.6% 63 14.1%
13.8% 120 20.5%
24.8% 191 25.5%
31.6% 249 28.4%
38% 329 31.4%
43.8% 461 34.9%
Dexterity+Critical Strike Scaling
Live|Dexterity+CritStrike|PTS
34% 72+204 29.5%
38.5% 134+204 31.7%
43.5% 249+204 34.7%
46.2% 461+103 36.8%
47.7% 461+204 38.2%
Useful (slightly updated) Original Post
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Edit: Oh, if you are wondering on my true opinion on the current metagame changes:
You gave us 'heroes' too much power in On-Alert for far too long. How can you possibly bring us back to mortality without driving us to the brink of insanity?
Another thing you need to consider is that in On-Alert you allowed people to buy the 'best' gear with real money. I mean sure it was a gamble and you are protected with the ToS but any changes no matter how minor-sever will leave a sour taste in their mouth as well as their pockets.
At any rate, "If you build it, he will come".
I hope someone gets the reference..
This is a lie. If you have purchased items with real world money, contact your financial institutions and learn what your rights are.