FC.31.20130824.10 PTS Preview Changes

lordgar

The current PTS build ( FC.31.20130824.10 ) has the following preview changes.

• The diminishing returns curves on Avoid, Dodge, Critical Chance, Severity, and Offense have all been adjusted. Additionally Offense now scales in a separate layer of damage bonus to make it more straight forward to understand. Avoid, Dodge, Critical Chance, and Severity will now rise significantly more slowly while at level cap. Offense will now scale with an entirely new curve, and should be much more valuable to players overall. This is an experimental potential future change that will not be part of the bug fix release. We are interested in how these adjustments feel at at all levels of gameplay.
  
  
• The Debugger has an upcoming set of gear (Justice Gear) for your testing and feedback.

Please discuss them in this thread!

kylexiii

Don't.

That's all I have to say about it.

mrhinkypunk

These changes are amazing, love it.

The only thing I would say is the dodge nerf is a little 'over kill' in the way passives such as LR don't really affect it enough either. The 100% dodge chance from before was insane and stupid although the change has made it so the max you may be able to get to is probably about 30%, this should be a little higher if someone is using LR with various other dodge buffs on as well. If not then all master AT's will be made pointless.

Incredible changes though, they'll really mix things up and create a much more interesting challenge when playing the game.

Edit: Just about to go test it, although surely using shadow bolt (darkness energy builder) you can take 10% away from their dodge chance which will put their dodge to just 7.9% if using 2 gamblers luck gem 7's in their gear. That is rather crazy.

EM still gives the same amount of dodge it did before which will take my dodge up to around 34% which I suppose is still a respectable dodge chance with this change.

Masterful Dodge also still gives the same stupid amount of dodge chance meaning that you dodge everything. This being said it is still the case that this skill is crazily over powered and in fact even more so now. People will just working around recharging MD as fast as possible so to get dodge chance. I'd say if this change to dodge takes place it would be best to see if it is possible to change Masterful Dodge is some way so it gives only about 50% base dodge or something such as this.

crypticbuxom

I'll make comparisons to my live numbers and PTS numbers of exact characters to see if this hurts or benefits. I have all manners of different gear combinations focusing on Offense focusing or Crit and Severity so lets see if these changes makes some toons stronger and other weaker.

But its all going to be even more broken for the players who have discovered the specialization exploit that lets them have multiple primary super stat spec trees of up to 3 (even 4 which is rumored).

kriss94

Derp, wrong thread.

somebob

pyroluna wrote: »

Don't.

That's all I have to say about it.

I completely and totally disagree. Players have become absolute powerhouses since On Alert screwed everything up.

That said, some of it needs to be looked at.

My stats on Live (using Ice Form as a Passive):
305.1 Offense (36% Damage Strength, still stacked with superstats)
40.3% Crit Chance
98.5% Crit Severity
220.5 Defense (52%)
39.2% Dodge Chance
58.7% Avoidance

On PTS:
305.1 Offense (11% Damage Strength, on its own layer, effect is noticeable)
35.3% Crit Chance
98.5% Crit Severity
220.5% Dodge (52%)
13.9% Dodge Chance
55% Avoidance

Dodge and Avoidance comes from:
127 Dodge Rating and 139 Avoidance (slotted into Heroic Breastplate of Agility)

Keep in mind that the default Dodge is 10%. So 127 Rating (from your usual level 40 Heroic item) is not even worth 4%.

I'm also hearing that Lightning Reflexes, R3, at level 40, is only providing 10% Dodge Chance. So it's utterly worthless IMHO as a Passive.

I like the changes. I'm no longer overpowered like On Alert allowed me to do so. But it's going to take some rebuilding for sure. But I do deal a bit more damage (but also lose a bit of Crit Chance).

bluhman

Yeah, after looking at the numbers, I don't think that changing the dodge curve is going to be the answer. The change in dodge rating in LR, versus the flat scaling that Quarry gets means that quarry has a higher dodge chance than LR. Though that doesn't account entirely for avoidance.

Most everything else I agree with - Crits were waaaaay too prevalent, and upping the value of offense is going to nicely offset the loss of crit power. Its just that the dodge changes are going to completely screw over characters built around WotW, Quarry, and LR (as well as Shadow Warrior, but **** them.)

Might I suggest instead reducing dodge rating/avoidance rating returns on equipment? That might help stem the ubiquity of dodge while still preserving the usefulness of its niche in finesse-based builds. Not to mention, it'll make dodge specializations in Dex and Con quite useful.

somebob

Okay, using Quarry, R3 on Live:
44.6% Crit Chance, 91.6% Severity
62.4% Dodge Chance, 62.9% Avoid

PTS:
35.5% Crit Chance, 91.6% Severity
33% Dodge Chance, 59.3% Avoid

Has as far as Dodge bonuses go:
Quarry: 'dodge chance increased by 18%'.
+127 Dodge Chance Rating via equipment.
+42 Dodge Chance Rating via Quick Reflexes in the Dex tree.

NOTE: Flat dodge boost powers (Evasive Maneuvers and Thundering Kicks' third hit in the combo) are now EXTREMELY powerful under this new system (just like they were before On Alert). Powers that give you additional Dodge Rating (Ebb and Flow via Crashing Wave Kick) are now absolute bunk.

IMHO: Dodge Chance should get a bit more of a boost at the lower levels. Your usual level 40 Heroic gear giving you +127 Dodge Chance should not only just give you 4% Dodge. Especially since most ATs will just see that boost and nothing more.

roughbearmattach

I am for anything that reduces the supremacy of dodge/crit builds. In every game I have played that uses such mechanics, they are always the best ones. It's tired and predictable.

nbkxs

Leave it alone, it's fine the way it is. So for me: ditto don't. It's too crippling, and too expensive to try to adjust to after the fact.

Instead, give us more things to do that we haven't seen before; more places to go!

I don't want to spend eons trying to recover my character's effectiveness after she was crippled by a massive mechanics change after I spent -so- long to get her where she is; just to run the same stuff again.

XS

saleen5

There goes my entire toon collection. I am not rebuilding after everything I've put into this. All my Legion's gear will be junk since I run crit/dodge mostly and now the mods I have on it will be too. I feel scammed. They add the Legion gear and the devices which sell like crazy and wait for the right time to nerf the crap out of them. Thanks for the slap in the face Cryptic. I will not spend my money here if this is how you are going to treat me.

Running over your player base to push this new justice gear...I am very angry with this! :mad:

kallethen

WOW. I can understand needing to nerf Dodge, but I really think the curve is too steep.

Taking my Focus-based Bestial build:
PSS Dex with specializations that boost Crit Chance, Crit Severity, Dodge, and Avoidance.
Warden and Vindicator spec trees w/ Crit Severity specs and the Offense/Defense boosting specs.
Passive is Way of the Warrior
Heroic Gloves of Piercing with R5 Gambler's Gem
Heroic Breastplate of Agility with R5 Gambler's Gem


Live numbers:
Offense: 299.3
Critical Chance: 43.4%
Critical Severity: 101.6%
Defense: 188.4
Dodge: 51%
Avoidance: 70.2%

PTS numbers:
Offense: 299.3
Critical Chance: 34.6%
Critical Severity: 99.7%
Defense: 188.4
Dodge: 16.9%
Avoidance: 66.7%


I wont' say anything about the Offense stat change, as I hadn't tried fighting yet. I do believe that the Dodge curve though is WAY out of whack. While I'm not exactly min/maxing, I did try to put a build that had decent dodge. For me to drop from a 41% bonus to Dodge to a 6.9% bonus? That's a difference of 34.1%

Seriously, lower that Dodge Rating curve.

mrhinkypunk

saleen5 wrote: »

There goes my entire toon collection. I am not rebuilding after everything I've put into this. All my Legion's gear will be junk since I run crit/dodge mostly and now the mods I have on it will be too. I feel scammed. They add the Legion gear and the devices which sell like crazy and wait for the right time to nerf the crap out of them. Thanks for the slap in the face Cryptic. I will not spend my money here if this is how you are going to treat me.

Running over your player base to push this new justice gear...I am very angry with this!

Wow people are taking this the wrong way totally. The biggest problem with this new gear I see at the moment is it is far better, although you complain as if this will actually affect you. May I ask you in what way does new gear being added into the game affect you? You are a PvE'er correct, it's not exactly like mobs are getting harder it's only dodge which is affected which means you may need to make slight tweaks, although hopefully it wont be affected so bad that you will need to change anything.

In PvP however this new gear will be a must, but it's not like this is being done for pvp now is it. I like what they are doing, if other players of other games complained when they had new gear added I don't know what the world would come to. Next thing you know CO's level cap will go to 50 and there you will be complaining that you waisted your money paying to get all the best stuff.

Also as I said in my previous post, remember you still have powers there such as EM which will help bring your dodge back up. I managed to get to 98% dodge with lead tempest, legions of agility and 2 gambler 7's and EM. Also MD still gives 250% dodge chance.

saleen5

mrhinkypunk wrote: »

Wow people are taking this the wrong way totally. The biggest problem with this new gear I see at the moment is it is far better, although you complain as if this will actually affect you. May I ask you in what way does new gear being added into the game affect you? You are a PvE'er correct, it's not exactly like mobs are getting harder it's only dodge which is affected which means you may need to make slight tweaks, although hopefully it wont be affected so bad that you will need to change anything.

In PvP however this new gear will be a must, but it's not like this is being done for pvp now is it. I like what they are doing, if other players of other games complained when they had new gear added I don't know what the world would come to. Next thing you know CO's level cap will go to 50 and there you will be complaining that you waisted your money paying to get all the best stuff.

Also as I said in my previous post, remember you still have powers there such as EM which will help bring your dodge back up. I managed to get to 98% dodge with lead tempest, legions of agility and 2 gambler 7's and EM. Also MD still gives 250% dodge chance.

I am complaining because my Legion's gear will have to be switched to Justice gear and I will have to change my crit/dodge to offense/defense. Why would I complain about raising the level cap? Good god!

megaskullmon

I do hope this new gear for this won't be in lock boxes...that would be pointless make it drops...

mrhinkypunk

saleen5 wrote: »

I am complaining because my Legion's gear will have to be switched to Justice gear and I will have to change my crit/dodge to offense/defense. Why would I complain about raising the level cap? Good god!

Oh, I've just heard that these gears are currently PTS only to test diminishing returns and stuff. Also offense may not be best to change to, it isn't really adding that much to the SR at all. I think it's probably still best to get crit. Also with defense it may be a good idea to get more HP.

reloadx101

Once again, Managed to ruin my build, my entire build is built around dodge chance, My energy gain, My BCR wich heals me based on dodge, I die easily enough as it is, So Cryptic as a Lifetime member I say THANX A HELL OF ALOT... Lightning Reflex is the ONLY Passive I like to use My Attack power has already been cut since I am NOT Useing Way of the Warrior OR Quarry So thanx again for turning my only best character into Fricking NOTHING ONCE AGAIN...Please dont make that change I dont care what other people say about LIKEING it, they only say that cause they cant over power through it half the time or One shot you, Look I already get one shotted as it is by chance ok, Even your MEGA D's can do it, have been also SO Lightning Reflex should NOT be changed, your basicly screwing up the deffence of WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE DODGE, you want to lower DODGE do it on Way of the Warrior or Quarry, Since they can by chance still Over Power Through Lightning Reflex, So now there is no chance for a Dodge Defence, you might as well just take it from the game. Thats all I have to say about it, Its completely unfair, If your going to give something that has such low chance still you might as well just take it out all together.

zer0x0ne

How about you guys try making new content, actual new content (not alerts, or brief story distractions), instead of finding new lazy ways to make the existing content harder to kill?

I want a genuine challenge, not to get my **** kicked by content I've been navigating just fine for four years because my stats were nerfed, for no other reason than lazy developing.

dragonfist8

yeah thats just stupid, so basically SR and UR will will just instantly win in PVP. Seems like everytime I get a build put together, something within that build gets nerfed causing it to beome trash....If it makes it to live, i'm out.

gerberatetra

lordgar wrote: »

The current PTS build ( FC.31.20130824.10 ) has the following preview changes.

• The diminishing returns curves on Avoid, Dodge, Critical Chance, Severity, and Offense have all been adjusted. Additionally Offense now scales in a separate layer of damage bonus to make it more straight forward to understand. Avoid, Dodge, Critical Chance, and Severity will now rise significantly more slowly while at level cap. Offense will now scale with an entirely new curve, and should be much more valuable to players overall. This is an experimental potential future change that will not be part of the bug fix release. We are interested in how these adjustments feel at at all levels of gameplay.
  
  
• The Debugger has an upcoming set of gear (Justice Gear) for your testing and feedback.

Please discuss them in this thread!

Please don't do this!

Please don't let the Uber geared and Min Maxing players ruin the game for the rest of us who like varied theme builds that still work because of the system's generosity.

Most of us can't or will not bother to scrape up the leet loot and all that crap to min max, don't punish us!

ariesmajor

So when should we expect free retcons.

gerberatetra

kallethen wrote: »

Live numbers:
Offense: 299.3
Critical Chance: 43.4%
Critical Severity: 101.6%
Defense: 188.4
Dodge: 51%
Avoidance: 70.2%

PTS numbers:
Offense: 299.3
Critical Chance: 34.6%
Critical Severity: 99.7%
Defense: 188.4
Dodge: 16.9%
Avoidance: 66.7%

Good lord this is just stupid..

sanguineviper

Alright, so the main issue with dodge and avoidance is actually not the high end of the cap. It's particularly the low end of the cap, and being able to just throw dodge/avoid on all gear for any build ever and call it a day.

So, why not make a really weird, totally unheard of curve, where at the beginning of rating it scales absolutely terribly, then plateaus for a bit, then increases in value significantly right at the end before plateauing again?

I imagine that would solve the issue of gear choice being moot currently on live, but also retain the usefulness of dodge for builds that actually invest a TON, and I mean, literally all of their defense, into dodging.


Alright after a quick look at things, dodge definitely needs to be worked a bit better, current changes kill anything that adds rating build wise, but powers that add flat boosts are still fantastic, even more so, now. It might be a good idea to consider, instead of messing with a crazy curve, to instead make any sort of power based choices for dodge follow the flat base % increase style that for example, quarry and Evasive Maneuvers use.

If LR had say, a bit more than double the flat bonus of quarry, with a little superstat scaling on top of that, i think it would be right back to being just fine. And the same goes for Masterful, swap out its rating based bonuses for flat bonuses that can be easily controlled and tweaked to fit into a new system.

With dodge out of the way, offense and crit seem totally fine. I only lost around 10% crit and severity from live, but the offense rework offset that and my overall DPS remained unchanged. I imagine I can easily re-slot a couple mods to gain back some offense/defense looping instead of investing entirely in crit and severity, to actually improve my DPS over live, so GJ there.

mrhinkypunk

WOW Come on... Really now.

YOU CAN STILL GET 98% DODGE WITH QUARRY EM AND LEAD TEMPEST.

I feel like I'm the only one who is for this change...

People don't seem to understand there is something wrong when you have 97% dodge chance 24/7 with 70% avoidance at least. Especially when they also have at least 60-70% reduction to damage. Someone just mentioned pvp as if they actually do pvp that much.

You guys are complaining about your build's being ruined but it is not your build being affected, it is your gear. Ofcourse this will have an affect on your build where it wont allow you to get 97% dodge chance 24/7 with an offensive passive.

The few things that need looking into are LR and MD.

kinarikairi

There's a fine line between nerfing and ruining a game. You guys jumped a good ten feet over that line. I can understand a dodge nerf as I could consistently get 90% dodge with Evasive Maneuvers and Quarry, but this is way too much. A lot of builds rely on dodging to survive. You even have two ATs you pay for that use Lightning Reflexes. Giving out a free retcon won't help these guys.

I'm pretty upset how this will affect PvP, too. It's bad enough with devices, Strafing Run's insanely small cooldown, knockup/hold/stun spam, Ebon Ruin having its automatic Trauma, the ability to consistently stealth, and use Shadow Strike to instantly kill people if you time it right, but now PvP will literally become Unleashed Rage/Strafing Run/stealth builds + whoever can stealth/hold the other player first. GG, it's not as if people that used for example, melee, had issues in PvP as it is. Or anyone without a Strength primary SS.

On that note, can you please fix the tail slider? I mean, it's nice and all, but the bird tail has some awful clipping.
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/1615/8j9a.png
http://i.imgur.com/NiuZzwA.png
Like...really awful.

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gerberatetra

mrhinkypunk wrote: »

You guys are complaining about your build's being ruined but it is not your build being affected, it is your gear. Of course this will have an affect on your build where it wont allow you to get 97% dodge chance 24/7 with an offensive passive.

Look if individual powers need ot be fixed, or nerfed, that's one thing...

But a global nerf to dodge?

Not all of us seek out the broken combos, and those who do then cry for more challenge?

*faceplam*

somebob

mrhinkypunk wrote: »

I feel like I'm the only one who is for this change...

People don't seem to understand there is something wrong when you have 97% dodge chance 24/7 with 70% avoidance at least. Especially when they also have at least 60-70% reduction to damage. Someone just mentioned pvp as if they actually do pvp that much.

THANK YOU.

Does anyone here remember when you had to choose between a +Stat Primary or a +Dodge/Avoid Primary? Back before the days when EVERYONE and their mother had at least 35-40% Dodge Chance?

On Alert absolutely broke player power. This is why they can't make new content, especially content for a range of levels. The player power level is WAY too drastic between the high end (Level 40 Heroic gear or better) and the low end (everybody else). Some sort of balance needs to come back.

This is the balance.

That said, yes, Dodge still needs to be adjusted a bit. To make low numbers of it actually mean something. And completely not ruin how LR works in the process.

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zer0x0ne

somebob wrote: »

On Alert absolutely broke player power. This is why they can't make new content, especially content for a range of levels. The player power level is WAY too drastic between the high end (Level 40 Heroic gear or better) and the low end (everybody else). Some sort of balance needs to come back.

Yeah... THAT'S why they haven't made new content. :rolleyes:

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reloadx101

Seriously like what the junk, Makeing the PvP'ers happy by nerfing out some of the good defence we are able to have and getting one shotted, If anything, Dodge could be left alone or increased slightly or atleast avoidance, why are you trying to punish us Cryptic/PWE I remember the good days where we got new content every month, but now its ALL about PvP/Lockboxes/Keys and makeing more money from them, The Q Exchange was awesome but that is about the only bright side, I love both PvP and PvE but when you ruin the PvE that is when Im gona get mad, Last thing I want to do is leave a game I loved since Free two play, So I guess Jin'ichi Ebizou@BrandonNB/Lifetime member will just become another crappy character in what WAS a great game, All I can now say is, I feel like ive been cheated out of my $300. Thanx Cryptic/PWE...Liked Cryptic alot better when Tiyshen was in charge of things along with Atari.

gerberatetra

somebob wrote: »

On Alert absolutely broke player power. This is why they can't make new content, especially content for a range of levels. The player power level is WAY too drastic between the high end (Level 40 Heroic gear or better) and the low end (everybody else). Some sort of balance needs to come back.

This is the balance.

Am I the only one who goes on PTS and doesn't have a total leet build on Live?

I mean I have some bad **** toons but my Off Pass toons are fragile, as one would expect.

Heck my Quarry toon is my main and I die all the time [esp those cheating one shooting bosses they introduced since On Alert].

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gerberatetra

reloadx101 wrote: »

Seriously like what the junk, Makeing the PvP'ers happy by nerfing out some of the good defence we are able to have and getting one shotted, If anything, Dodge could be left alone or increased slightly or atleast avoidance, why are you trying to punish us Cryptic/PWE I remember the good days where we got new content every month, but now its ALL about PvP/Lockboxes/Keys and makeing more money from them, The Q Exchange was awesome but that is about the only bright side, I love both PvP and PvE but when you ruin the PvE that is when Im gona get mad, Last thing I want to do is leave a game I loved since Free two play, So I guess Jin'ichi Ebizou@BrandonNB/Lifetime member will just become another crappy character in what WAS a great game, All I can now say is, I feel like ive been cheated out of my $300. Thanx Cryptic/PWE...Liked Cryptic alot better when Tiyshen was in charge of things along with Atari.

Well keep in mind this isn't going Live, this isn't even for the upcoming build. We're getting a chance to give feed back, so stay positive..

Okay relatively positive.

But seriously if you give up while it's just on test you're not helping the rest of us. Test it, show why it sucks and suggest alternatives.

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kallethen

Just to note: I am not against adjusting the diminishing returns on Crit Chance/Severity and Dodge/Avoid. I can agree there needs to be an adjustment. It's just that Dodge itself seems way off compared to the other stats on the PTS. I'm wondering if a value was typoed.

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sanguineviper

gradii wrote: »

how about just not doing it? who cares if some people are immortal? make new lairs with new mechanics. for instance, debuffs that affect the most powerful OP built players, like in the comics where a supervillain temporarily negates a powerful hero's abilities and he/she needs to be helped out by his/her allies.

No, make those debuffs affect ALL players. So that everyone gets instantly killed except the one guy who's built to survive the extremely difficult content, as it should be.

Also, updated my earlier post with thoughts. Can't access my account bank of thousands of mods on PTS so i can't in depth test for now.

joybuzzerx

I have/had a WotW, NW, Quarry, and LR using characters and I agree. I really didn't see why my Quarry was getting higher dodge and slightly lower Avoidance than LR.

But, LR...it's about dodging and it can't even dodge for one (always bothered me, that the dodge Passive says...no you don't really dodge...you just have a chance at taking less damage...that's not dodging).

I don't know how anyone was getting close to Quarry/LR dodge bonuses with NW (but I don't deny that maybe it was possible).

Will have to agree with the idea that "Oh hey...better gear than Legion in new lockboxes" is a bad idea.

The idea of "Oh hey, spend lots of money to try to get this gear, then you obtain it, and then we make new better gear for you to chase after by spending more money" just seems...well...stupid.

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cptmillennium

The numbers for dodge seem VERY low...too low to compete with Defense now. I think with these numbers we'll just see a complete shift from everyone stacking dodge/avoidance to everyone stacking Defense. Bringing the dodge numbers down a bit gear I think is a good idea, as you can get awfully high from that alone. I'm not sure the powers that actually grant dodge and avoidance need to be altered though.

Can you explain how this new Offense works exactly? You said it's "another layer" of damage bonus. Is it multiplicative? Like a mini-crit severity bonus that's always on? I think even in this case, the numbers coming out are too low to compare favorably with crits. With around 700 Offense I'm getting a 21% bonus, specced pretty heavily for it. Meanwhile, from gear alone I'm still getting about a 30% chance to crit, 36% with specs, and with the boost to my SSSs from the Justice Gear I'm sitting at 115% severity. I could see if I had to give up crits to get the Offense, but I didn't. I only had to give up 10% crit chance to switch from Overpower to Juggernaut.

If Offense is meant to be an alternative to crits, I think the numbers would need to get a boost on the high end, or maybe crit chance/severity would still need to drop a bit.

THANK YOU FOR THE SUPERVILLAIN TRAINING DUMMIES!!!

Love the Justice Gear as well.

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mrhinkypunk

gradii wrote: »

how about just not doing it? who cares if some people are immortal? make new lairs with new mechanics. for instance, debuffs that affect the most powerful OP built players, like in the comics where a supervillain temporarily negates a powerful hero's abilities and he/she needs to be helped out by his/her allies.

Wait what? That's rather contradicting... Basically what you said in a previous post was about LR. Now I said in one of my previous comments this is on thing that needs to be looked at.

OKAY here is my idea of what they should do with LR if they use this change to dodge. LR should enhance the dodge that you get from your gear as well as the current dodge chance that it gives. This will allow someone who uses LR to get to about 70% dodge chance which is a fair enough dodge chance seeing as they don't have the 120% damage reduction that defiance gives.

I think people I going way over the top before testing anything though. It is still very easy to get dodge in various ways, one being (as I keep on saying) EM which gives a 20% flat dodge chance. There are also many others that give things like this. So by saying this it make sit possible to have a 24/7 70% (or even 80% if you stack it right) dodge chance.

Don't be nieve enough to suddenly jump to the conclusion that no only is this breaking the mechanic and making LR pointless but also being done to make PvP'ers happy. You know what, PvE is in just as bad of a state as PvP these days and the reason why is that there is no challenge. You say you want new content to give the challenge, new content can't just be made with a click of a finger it needs time, money and effort and it also needs a long time planning / testing, not just the building. This means that new content will make it so they have no time to fix vital bugs that need fixing and adding stuff which they are currently doing. This update when refined (for instance with LR) will hopefully not only make the game more challenging but will also give the opportunity for more unique builds to come into the game. Personally the idea that the possibility for a good build is endless would be like a dream to actually be in this game instead of everyone having the same tank that uses TGM and then makes up some stupid theme around that.

monsterdaddy

I am not in favor of this change because Dodging attacks is a:

simple staple of heroic comic book characters!

When I first started playing CO I thought it was a great idea that you separated out dodge and avoidance mechanics just like having block mechanics.

This change basically destroys the concept of a hard to hit hero and huge swaths of themed characters.

You want to decrease the effect of dodge? I am all for it but do some real home work and make changes like this:

• Holds make Dodge Chance go to zero.
• Roots reduce Dodge Chance
• AoE attacks reduce Avoidance values
• Have a maximum Dodge chance of 95% that can only be exceeded by Masterful Dodge.
• Or simply make the bulk of the nerf fall on avoidance and not dodge, that accomplishes the nerf better IMHO

There are so many better ways to fix dodge AND preserve the heroic concept better. This change you propose isn't about mechanics, its about heroic themes and concepts.

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cptmillennium

monsterdaddy wrote: »

I am not in favor of this change because Dodging attacks is a:

simple staple of heroic comic book characters!

When I first started playing CO I thought it was a great idea that you separated out dodge and avoidance mechanics just like having block mechanics.

This change basically destroys the concept of a hard to hit hero and huge swaths of themed characters.

You want to decrease the effect of dodge? I am all for it but do some real home work and make changes like this:

• Holds make Dodge Chance go to zero.
• Roots reduce Dodge Chance
• AoE attacks reduce Avoidance values
• Have a maximum Dodge chance of 95% that can only be exceeded by Masterful Dodge.
• Or simply make the bulk of the nerf fall on avoidance and not dodge, that accomplishes the nerf better IMHO

There are so many better ways to fix dodge AND preserve the heroic concept better. This change you propose isn't about mechanics, its about heroic themes and concepts.

I agree. Reducing avoidance and/or making dodge situationally less effective seem like better options than deep cuts across the board.

gerberatetra

mrhinkypunk wrote: »

W

I think people I going way over the top before testing anything though. It is still very easy to get dodge in various ways, one being (as I keep on saying) EM which gives a 20% flat dodge chance. There are also many others that give things like this. So by saying this it make sit possible to have a 24/7 70% (or even 80% if you stack it right) dodge chance.

See, this is what I mean.

If we're going to balance things on "Well if the take THIS, and THIS, and THIS, -then- its broken so we have to nerf ~everything~"

What if I don't take the min max combo? What I i just want to play something fun?

Why should the min maxers ruin my middling build I made for fun?

Maybe it's EM and powers like it that are the problem?

kirsros

I'm not going to bash you guys. I totally understand that this is just a test and a test only. Can we please just leave it at that and not bring this nerf over to the live server? I know it's hard coming up for new content and to keep a good chunk of the player base happy, and in your shoes I would probably just turn tail and quit altogether. But, keep in mind that there is so much content in the PnP champions source books you guys haven't even touched. I strongly suggest looking into those.

mrhinkypunk

monsterdaddy wrote: »

I am not in favor of this change because Dodging attacks is a:

simple staple of heroic comic book characters!

When I first started playing CO I thought it was a great idea that you separated out dodge and avoidance mechanics just like having block mechanics.

This change basically destroys the concept of a hard to hit hero and huge swaths of themed characters.

You want to decrease the effect of dodge? I am all for it but do some real home work and make changes like this:

• Holds make Dodge Chance go to zero.
• Roots reduce Dodge Chance
• AoE attacks reduce Avoidance values
• Have a maximum Dodge chance of 95% that can only be exceeded by Masterful Dodge.
• Or simply make the bulk of the nerf fall on avoidance and not dodge, that accomplishes the nerf better IMHO

There are so many better ways to fix dodge AND preserve the heroic concept better. This change you propose isn't about mechanics, its about heroic themes and concepts.

There are some great points in that list that I actually agree would be very interesting if they were in the game. The problem is with the top one is that it is actually possible to get a stun that lasts for about 6 seconds (over 10 seconds on tooltip but diminishing returns cause it to be strange) this being said using TGM and sonic devices you'll be able to kill anyone easily with the only chance of them doing anything about it using an active offence to break the hold.

In saying that, this update certainly wasn't done for PvP. This would be a lot of work to do just to fix something in PvP and has no relevance to PvE.