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Should there be a reason to play an AT instead of a FF?
spinnytop
Posts: 16,450 Arc User
Since the PTS thread is being cleansed of all posts relating to this discussion, the discussion can be continued here.
Should there be an intended reason to play an AT instead of a FF once you have access to FF?
Do subscribers/FF slot owners that are knowledgeable about FF power synergies need a reason to play an AT over an FF?
Should ATs have some sort of competitive edge over FFs? ( note: not a pvp question )
Should ATs be just as powerful as FFs?
Did the DR Bug make ATs "more balanced" in relation to FFs? What about support and tank ATs?
Should there be an intended reason to play an AT instead of a FF once you have access to FF?
Do subscribers/FF slot owners that are knowledgeable about FF power synergies need a reason to play an AT over an FF?
Should ATs have some sort of competitive edge over FFs? ( note: not a pvp question )
Should ATs be just as powerful as FFs?
Did the DR Bug make ATs "more balanced" in relation to FFs? What about support and tank ATs?
Post edited by spinnytop on
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To balance FF/AT damage a bit better, I would like to see a handfull of hugely overperforming damage buffs toned down a bit.
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Others will disagree.
But, what I would say is this, a paid AT should be a little more powerful than a free one, but still not as powerful as a well-built FF.
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Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
That is all that matters IMVHO.
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1) They looked neat and I wanted something different to play.
2) Someone kicked my butt with them in AT PvP ( irony, my favorite long time pvp AT ended up being... the Soldier ).
Two additional reasons were that my budget didn't allow for a sub or lts, and that FF slots weren't a thing yet. Once FF slots came out AT purchases were pretty much done for me.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I think ATs don't need special bonuses, lack of DR on damage, or special powers.
I DO think that ATs need to be built very, very well. Like, either min/maxed as good as possible, or as self-sufficient as possible (particularly for Hybrid role ATs).
The biggest thing that I would like to see with ATs, is the ability to choose role: Hybrid or the role that matches the AT's passive.
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Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
Even now my freeform character is a modified version of the Impulse with Gravitic Ripple and Gravity Driver thrown in instead of force snap etc.
Then I got LTS and haven't used an AT since.
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Support ATs are quite honestly, largely non-existent... The Inventor is a DPS in support role, the Grimoire doesn't really know what it wants to be, the Radiant is more of a DPS than a support, and the Mind teeters between an actual Support, a reliable CC, and a terrible DPS...
Not to mention the simple fact that many silver players pick ATs based on power types and don't actually care one bit about the role the AT is assigned to which can make group content involving AT characters rather annoying at time as the Tank or Support think they are playing a DPS or in some cases, the DPS thinks they can be a Tank... They really should expand the AT system to include a build for each power set in each role... They should pick an assortment of "basic" power types and provide all ATs for those powers as free silver ATs and then change the purchasable ones to purchasable AT power types... So like buying the Void would unlock Darkness DPS, Tank, Hybrid, and Support ATs.
For others it's too restrictive and they will get a freeform slot or subscribe instead of using ATs. ATs and FFs that have the same powers, stats, specs, and role should be completely identical in terms of performance. It mostly helped min-maxers find a way to deal 20%-35% more damage than they would as a fully optimal FF. Nothing wrong with that, but min maxers can and do take care of themselves.
For players who do not have great gear the DR bug is not that helpful because they would not hit DR as an FF anyway. Arguably, once the AT builds are reviewed, some of the ATs will deal more damage...due to having having a better heal or better passive or having their superstats actually scale their toggle forms....as opposed to just getting a bugged 5-15% damage boost. Tanks got the same damage bonus everyone else did, but it's even less helpful for them because damage is not their direct goal. It's more about maximizing threat to hold aggro while staying alive. FF Tanks are much better at accomplishing that than ATs with or without the DR bug.
Support did not get more balanced with FFs due to this. With Healers specifically, healing bonus already has no DR....regardless of whether you're an AT or FF.
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-Lazyness.
Should ATs have some sort of competitive edge over FFs?
-There is, they're free.
Should ATs be just as powerful as FFs?
-Who's FFs?
Did the DR Bug make ATs "more balanced" in relation to FFs? What about support and tank ATs?
-idk.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Maybe some AT-specific achievements? Other than that, no.
Should ATs have some sort of competitive edge over FFs?
No.
Should ATs be just as powerful as FFs?
Don't strongly care.
Did the DR Bug make ATs "more balanced" in relation to FFs? What about support and tank ATs?
The DR bug was most useful to people who least need help (people able to max out on gear, and with the experience to know how to do so with best results), which should not be a goal.
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Might be better in that other thread, but the equal part would probably be a lot easier with a full 14 power powerset. More work re-coding on the back end, but alot easier shoving in the 1 theme heal without removing key powers. Then there's 1 extra left as a hole. Room for something special later?
Not sure what special could be sadly currently my ideas overlap with current developments
... 'Type X damage mastery' for high theme build (get back 5-10% no-DR damage) = too similar to damage mods
... Second form = overlaps with new AT role rollout (Glacier/Icicle Dev/Rockstar are just dps/tank alternates)
... Both AO and AD
... New AT bulk heal, self rev, teammate rev. = Removal of Rev devices makes me think rev is special
Why AT, yes laziness/cheapness. Prebuilt powerset, no decisions, free to play, less costly to 'fix' on gameplay changes.
Also bragging rights when you solo hard content. "FF .. go away .. I do that on a heal-less glass cannon"
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
1) The way I see it, they already have 1 advantage: If you're a free player, you can use an AT (some by default, some by event unlocks, some by making a 1-time purchase) as much as you want when you get it. FF requires either an active sub or a slot so expensive that you either wait for the 50% off sales or, if you're okay with buying 4 at full price, just wait and buy LTS to have an almost unlimited number instead.
2) Should a prebuilt HP computer have an edge over a custom built computer? Aside from price, I don't see why. The former is prebuilt while the latter is a custom design. The only edge ATs should really have over FFs is the price tag.
3) They should have the potential to be as powerful--same numbers on abilities, etc. I'll agree that some of them could be built better.
4) No--if anything, that bug hurt balance. When you see people pulling disgusting numbers with their ATs compared to everyone else, that's actually a good indication that something is seriously wrong and I'm glad they decided to finally address it. It's not like these people were somehow "clever" with their choices because the whole AT is already assembled. As for tank and support ATs, I have no idea.
For anyone not min-maxing with great gear, it gave them a 5-15% damage boost relative to what they'd have with the same build as an FF. This is because they're barely hitting DR ceiling anyways, so not having one is not very helpful.
In fact, with the build reviews that are accompanying the bug fix, many ATs will likely do more damage assuming they can get an effective heal, a better matching passive and super stats that actually scale their toggle forms. Tanks benefit even less from the DR bug because damage is not their direct goal. Tank FFs are way more capable of surviving while maximizing threat to hold aggro and the DR bug does nothing to change that either way.
Support ATs would also benefit way more from a build review. For Healers specifically, healing bonus does not have any DR regardless of whether you're an FF or an AT.
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Given that the bug fix is accompanied by build reviews it's likely that many ATs will actually do more damage afterwards because they'll be able to heal themselves, have better passives, and have superstats that actually scale their toggle forms. Tank ATs benefit even less than the DPS ones because their direct goal is not to deal damage, but to survive while holding aggro. FF Tanks are generally much better at this and will stay that way unless Tank AT builds are also reviewed.
Support sees the least benefit. Healers, specifically, see no benefit from the AT bug because healing bonus already has no DR even for FFs....that might be another bug.
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Which can be easily fixed if you ask/search FreeForm builds on the forums (like I did years ago with my first FFs) OR YOU KNOW, Just copy the AT's build into FF with little changes
I have this FF build Directory Bookmarked 4 years now
I don't give a flying feather about PvP
Yes, It was so insulting seeing my characters who turned from ATs into FF builds (Unleashed, Devastator and Specialist) having their OLD AT damage highter than their FF counterpart builds, despite the builds being identical NO! ABSOLUTLY NOT!
I feel Disgusted with people who ignored their theme builds and just build an Unleashed or a Tempest AT for Cosmics (see Teleiosarus ) to exploit the DR Bug
Support and Tanks ATs will be doing fine even after the fix
Only if you are Unexperience or Lazy with FF building
Which you can fix by just asking friends, posting of forums or SEARCHING on the forums about FF builds, Builds and roles will be always be here
Heck, I have this FreeForm build directory bookmarked 3 years now I don't give a flying feather about PeeVeePee Yes, they should both have the same damage potential, with the only difference that FF can have access to more/different powers
There was nothing more dissapointing than seeing my characters who were remade from ATs into FFs (Unleashed, Devastator, Specialist) having lower damage output than their AT days, despite the builds being the same
ABSOLUTELY NOT
Not only they had unfair damage outputs but they also made people exploiting it for endgame
I find it really pathetic that skilled players Ditched their FF themed builds to convert/remake characters into ATs (Unleashed, soldier, tempest) just to EXPLOIT the DR differences for cosmics (teleiosarus' DPS checks)
Disgusting
2) Depends on the freeform, doesn't it? I mean, someone can put together a non-synergistic freeform that is horrible at any role it tries to fill, and I certainly think that ATs should be better than that.
Speaking of competently built freeforms however? No. ATs should not be better.
3) Keeping with the "competently built" theme, I say no.
Free ATs should be good, premium ATs should be better, freeforms should be best.
The difference shouldn't be so large that a team of free ATs can not get through level-appropriate challenges, nor should competently designed freeforms make it boringly easy, but there should be a difference.
In the case of freeforms the extra powers could be all the difference needed.
One idea I have seen is to give premium ATs an extra power. I think that is a good idea, but I would like to see that extra power be another passive when the build allows it, so that premium ATs could switch between roles. If there was no extra passive that would work then give them some other power that would help them fill their role and possibly even another power choice or two along the way to help them be a little more unique than the next guy who has the same premium AT.
In any case I think that ATs should be allowed to switch between hybrid and whatever role their passive is for.
This would not only help some of them while leveling, but would also help when they are fighting cosmics... They may not think they are tough enough to tank, but at least they could get out of tank role while they stand with the DPS.
4) DPs is something that helps everyone, and when free DPs ATs are overperforming then that is a big disincentive to getting people to pay for more.
Why pay for freeform or even premium DPs when I can do as much or more for free?
It was bad for the game. Forget "balance".
AT = Good
Premium AT = Better
Free From = Best
It's a simple paradigm but it works and I'm fine with that. Free Form should be top of the heap -- and the preferred style of game play.
And while AT's have a bad reputation, Kaiserin's tweaks has vastly improved most AT's. For example, the Void is excellent right now and the Savage is compatible with a FF build. Personally, I'd give AT's a teaming buff. That would boost a team of AT's working together. Similar to the Team-Up buffs that different characters have in the Marvel game.
And one tiny nitpick... the majority of AT's are PREMIUM. That means you have make a purchase or be a subscriber to use them. People purchase them for a variety of reasons, but those players tend to not be forum goers.
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Block timing explained
If LTSs are going to have access to ATs, that means that they are indeed an equivalent option. It proves that they aren't just the free (or cheaper) option. Furthermore, Silvers do have access to FFs. In fact, through Arc client quests, it is possible to eventually unlock a FF slot without playing the game at all. It is therefore irrational to consider FF to be somehow special. It is simply one more class in the game.
If by "competitive edge", you mean having their own niche, then yes. Balance demands it. If you mean being better overall, then no.
It isn't necessary for ATs to be as powerful as FFs. They simply need to have some niche of their own. The situation as it currently stands now is a good example of that. FFs are far more powerful than ATs (and anyone claiming otherwise is extremely foolish, because converting a FF to an AT sacrifices a massive defensive advantage for a much smaller offensive one), but ATs get the niche of being able to do better on dps checks, an advantage which only matters in about 4 places in the entire game (whereas the advantages of FFs matter everywhere, including those areas).
The DR bug gave ATs a niche. This was most notable in the case of dps ATs, but it also helped other ATs. The Behemoth, for example, is able to get much higher haymaker damage than a FF.
Now, all that said, balance does not demand that ATs have higher damage. It is entirely possible for ATs to have a niche while letting FFs have the damage edge.
Just off the top of my head:
AT-specific powers could theoretically work, but only if they actually offered something that FF powers don't, and that would be difficult to accomplish since we now know that certain people will scream bloody murder if FFs don't have more damage, durability, and healing. I suppose you could give all ATs some sort of Rebirth power that has half the recharge so that ATs can claim better self-rez capabilities (call it "Determination" or something, to represent that they're the underdog), but that's about all that comes to my mind.
Better CC resist is an idea that has floated through my mind, but that wouldn't be able to overcome the fact that FFs can have two AOs. Better knock resist is another, but I don't think that would be able to overcome the fact that FFs can choose their own SSs (it might help ATs that already use Str as a SS, but that won't do much for the Radiant or Soldier). Another possibility might be some sort of bonus with devices. But again, I have a hard time figuring out what such a bonus might be, and how to ensure that it gives them a real edge without being overpowered in its own way.
One thing I think would (technically) work would be to just make ATs immune to certain annoying conditions. Hypothetically, if ATs were immune to, say, snare, fear, disorient, and stun (for example), it would give them an edge in content where those conditions exist, without cutting into the advantages that FFs possess. It would be a very clunky solution though.
Another option would be to have the game content officially recognize ATs as weaker, and adjust itself accordingly. Specifically, instanced content could check to see if there is an archetype in the team, and if it finds one, reduce the stats of the enemies within by a certain amount.
The last solution I can think of (and probably the only one that is in any way likely), would be through the introduction of Archetype-only content. Specifically, if the rumored PvP rewards pass were to occur and AT Hero Games were to become a thing again, ATs could then claim a niche in their ability to access that content, all without threatening the mechanical superiority of the almighty FF gods. But even if the Hero Games were revitalized, that still doesn't give people much incentive for queueing AT Hero Games over unrestricted Hero Games, unless the gap between FFs and ATs is so large (and the rewards for victory great enough) that ATs can't hope to win in the unrestricted games.
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Block timing explained
It would be kind of silly if getting LTS removed access to ATs.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
There's no reason why I would play AT if I was already paying for monthly gold. Why would I waste hours on my gold month playing an AT with silver limitations when I can instead play FF without said limitations, also considering that the DR bug is going to get fixed? I can see how someone who is LTS (like myself) would do it because they aren't on the monthly-gold clock any longer and have time to kill, but that's the only exception I see.
If the game was using a business model similar to the Guild Wars games where you pay for just the retail and nothing else, then sure, ATs could be given something unique that FF does not have, as a reward for restricting yourself to a fixed AT framework.
That's not the case here, and the distinction between FF and AT has to do with how this game's F2P business model works. It was never a question of balance between ATs and FF. Consideration for how ATs should somehow match up with FF in one way or another pretty much goes out of the window since PWE / Cryptic obviously would prefer people to not remain as silver and pony up the cash to go gold instead, since it's all still a business and businesses don't exactly run entirely on goodwill to remain relevant and running.
ATs are supposed to be the inferior option compared to paying for gold and getting the superior, premium option that is FF. It makes no sense from a business standpoint to somehow make ATs as powerful as FF. PWE / Cryptic obviously would want as many people as possible to sign up for gold, and the incentive is to make FF the superior option. This applies for paid-ATs too since they're still ATs at their core and are not a gold premium feature. They're just added in as alternative stand-alone purchases.
If this game was like the Guild Wars ones where you only had to make a one-time payment for the retail then sure, ATs can be given some kind of edge over FF to reward players for restricting themselves to a rigid AT framework. That's not the case for this game, and at the end of the day any prospect of balance between ATs and FF goes completely out the window considering how this game's F2P business model works.
But even if we accepted the idea that people who pay money should have stronger characters (which, again, isn't even true right now), that wouldn't be a reason to make ATs weaker; it would be an argument for limiting whatever benefits they have to subscribers.
@pantagruel1
Your sentences contradict one another. If ATs can access content FFs can't, then they do indeed have a niche, which would make them an equivalent option.
@spinnytop
If ATs are strictly inferior, then nothing is being removed; you would be gaining options by being limited to FF.
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Block timing explained
Gold players have access to ATs because as expected of any online service that has multiple grade ratings like silver and gold, the higher grades obviously get access to whatever the lower grades include.
Golds get instant access to everything because they paid for it, outside of standalone purchases like costume packs. Silvers have to spend time grinding for stuff if they want to avoid paying for gold. It's not as simple or even accurate a concept as "Well golds and silvers can technically access everything so there's no real difference!" as you make it out to be. It's very possible to make a FF that somehow performs worse than an AT, but that's really besides the point. FF opens up the opportunity to create builds significantly more potent than any AT, so technically yes, people do pay money to have stronger characters, because the paid-for premium service allows for it. This isn't just some "idea" that's being discussed. It's something that's happening right now, and has been happening for years now.
Silver players are able to enjoy the full content experience of the game without paying a single cent. Gold players make the decision to pay and expect to get the full range of services offered. Limitations that come with a silver account by default should be expected. Limitations to gold players who ponying up actual cash and actually supporting the game are justified by... what exactly?
But people do pay money for gold to create stronger characters; something that only FF gives them the potential to do so that isn't found with silver ATs, something that will be further reinforced after the DR bug is fixed. It comes with actually paying for a premium service that should come with more sought-after things that isn't found in a silver account that can be entirely played for free.
Why should benefits ever be limited to subscribers who made the decision to pay for stuff and support the business? For the benefit of silver ATs? Last I checked Silver players already get access to every bit of content the game has to offer without being put behind a pay wall like so many other MMOs do. If nothing more is being made to limit Silver players' gaming experience, then don't have the audacity to suggest limitations to that of gold players.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I once had a discussion with you where you defended the idea of the DR fix (back when it was just an idea), where you said, and I quote "why should anyone ever be motivated to choose to have less choices?". Well, it applies here. If ATs are just going to be inferior versions of FFs, then by past Spinnytop's logic, LTSs shouldn't have ATs, because the possibility exists that someone will be motivated by that shiny button to choose fewer options.
If a player queues alone in a forest... Absolutely nothing in this post addresses the point I made. FFs are not a gold-specific reward. You therefore cannot use the money argument as justification for FF supremacy. When you cut through all the rationalization, it is exactly that. Except it's even dumber than that, because silvers have FFs, too. So in effect what it comes down to is people who use the overpowered class wanting it to not only remain overpowered, but to become even more overpowered relative to the other classes. Wanting FFs to remain at the top of the heap is fine, because some class always will be. But trying to take away the one thing keeping the overpowered class from becoming an outright gamebreaker? That's just dumb.
Watch, someone will now try to argue that CO isn't a class-based game, even though it clearly has been for the majority of its lifetime. Then they'll try to bring up developer intent as though they themselves haven't argued against the dev team's decisions in the past. It's happened multiple times now.
I can't use the "money argument" as justification for FF supremacy? Tell it to the company who has every interest to get people to pay money for gold or FF slots, and has every interest in remaining in business as long as possible.
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