Ignoring the question of whether FFs even need that, that argument is still invalid because dps FFs could do things that dps ATs could not. That's balance.
Ignoring the question of whether FFs even need that, that argument is still invalid because dps FFs could do things that dps ATs could not. That's balance.
Two builds using the exact same gear, stats and powers, one FF the other an AT... the FF has one extra power and takes another DPS power, we'll say it takes an AO. Is it balanced that the AT with out the extra AO is able to output more damage than the identical FF with an extra AO? The answer, in every logical universe is a great big NO!
The DR bug gave bad classes their own niche, without preventing FFs from having their own niche(s). So, yes, it was good for balance. To claim otherwise is nonsense.
So, what niches are you talking about exactly, that were there for FFs? I'm not seeing any.
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Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
Ignoring the question of whether FFs even need that, that argument is still invalid because dps FFs could do things that dps ATs could not. That's balance.
Two builds using the exact same gear, stats and powers, one FF the other an AT... the FF has one extra power and takes another DPS power, we'll say it takes an AO. Is it balanced that the AT with out the extra AO is able to output more damage than the identical FF with an extra AO? The answer, in every logical universe is a great big NO!
I actually did this experiment. I took one of my FFs and built him like an Unleashed, except I left off the stupid Force powers and gave him extra AOs. His damage was okay. Then, I retrained him as an actual Unleashed AT. Still with the exact same gear as before, his damage skyrocketed. As an FF, he would come in 12th-16th in the Cosmic rankings, as an AT, he regularly came in 3rd. I have to admit, I had heard about the DR bug, but I was shocked at the difference.
But it's more than just exact builds. I've done a lot experimenting to see what I can build to maximize DPS output. No matter how twinky, how min-maxy I make a build, and I'm pretty darn good at it (plus, I ask all the experts), I always end up losing to the top DPS AT builds. Even with better gear.
PLUS, I had to PAY for that FF. If there is any definition of unfair and unbalanced, that right there is it.
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Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
Ignoring the question of whether FFs even need that, that argument is still invalid because dps FFs could do things that dps ATs could not. That's balance.
Two builds using the exact same gear, stats and powers, one FF the other an AT... the FF has one extra power and takes another DPS power, we'll say it takes an AO. Is it balanced that the AT with out the extra AO is able to output more damage than the identical FF with an extra AO? The answer, in every logical universe is a great big NO!
Your hypothetical FF had access to a dps power the AT doesn't (presumably, they got some feature from that power, or they wouldn't have taken it), as well as improved CC breaking from the extra AO, and the extra FF power of being able to change role as the situation requires. So, even in the worst case scenario, the FF still had something over the AT.
The DR bug gave bad classes their own niche, without preventing FFs from having their own niche(s). So, yes, it was good for balance. To claim otherwise is nonsense.
So, what niches are you talking about exactly, that were there for FFs? I'm not seeing any.
Well, off the top of my head, for DPS:
Making DPS that could survive better Making DPS that could bring a rez (expecting a healer to stop healing when people are dropping is dumb) Making DPS that could break out of CC more often Making DPS that can change role as needed Making DPS with access to powers that ATs can't take (sometimes powers that an equivalent AT can't take, and sometimes powers that no AT can take)
It's not all about the raw damage numbers. Heck, it almost never is, because dps rarely matters in CO anyway. There's, what, 6 areas where you actually need dps to win? And even then, you only need enough to hit the dps check (which FFs could easily do); having more just allows you to carry more. And with the exception of FM, survivability is still more important than damage in those areas.
This is why people have trouble hitting easy dps checks on Teleiosaurus; dps is so unimportant in CO that players are almost never punished for being bad at it until they hit the endgame. As a result, people end up with builds that are terrible at it.
Like we already said, same build, same gear, dragon's wrath on a FF, max 13-15K, dragon's wrath on a no-DR AT, 30K. That's not balanced, and FF/AT are not classes, It's like playing a card-game, or a MOBA with premade build and customized. You pay for the customization or you farm with the premade to get the custom build.
Except the DR bug is completely about raw damage numbers.
Also, DPS matters for a dps more than just about anything else because of the simple long-standing reality that high dps = shorter fights, and shorter fights = faster loot. This is why the claim that "FFs have other stuff they can have" rings hollow because a dps toon is there to deal dps, and to make the fight shorter. That's why you don't see just a bunch of tanks and healers at Kiga despite the fact that there is no dps check in that fight. Time is a limited resource, and higher dps means we have to invest less of that resource into a fight. This is a long standing fact of MMOs in general. It's rather unusual to see a group specifically ask for "dps with high survivability", and given a choice between two dps players will tend to pick the one that outputs significantly higher raw numbers.
Sure you can say "Oh but FFs can take tools to survive better so they'll have to spend less time blocking/dying/etc". However, this response falls short when you look at just how big of a difference the DR bug made. In some cases the DPS increase was so big that it outweighed any of the benefits of being FF regarding that versatility. The second reason this response falls short is: healers. It's simply better to be a DPS character with obscenely high dps and no survival ability than it is to be a DPS character with moderate dps and the ability to keep themselves alive.
This is why you saw FF players who cared about that fact abandoning their dps FFs and instead rolling up an Unleashed. Which brings me to my next point: the DR bug was not a "feature" that all ATs enjoyed equally. Some ATs benefited a lot more, and so even as an AT-only player you would find your choices being manipulated towards those particular ATs. There's a reason the word "Unleashed" comes up so much after all.
So, not only did the DR bug not create an acceptable type of balance between ATs and FFs, it also didn't create an acceptable type of balance among ATs.
Again /thread. Arguments that a bug was good for balance is silly on their face, as it being a bug means it was not intended to work that way. The claim otherwise is foolishness.
Again /thread. Arguments that a bug was good for balance is silly on their face, as it being a bug means it was not intended to work that way. The claim otherwise is foolishness.
Balance has nothing to do with intended functionality. CO isn't even the first game where such a situation has arisen. There's the infamous case of wave-dashing in Super Smash Brothers: Melee, for example, which most competitive players claimed reduced the difference between character tiers.
Except the DR bug is completely about raw damage numbers.
Also, DPS matters for a dps more than just about anything else because of the simple long-standing reality that high dps = shorter fights, and shorter fights = faster loot. This is why the claim that "FFs have other stuff they can have" rings hollow because a dps toon is there to deal dps, and to make the fight shorter. That's why you don't see just a bunch of tanks and healers at Kiga despite the fact that there is no dps check in that fight. Time is a limited resource, and higher dps means we have to invest less of that resource into a fight. This is a long standing fact of MMOs in general. It's rather unusual to see a group specifically ask for "dps with high survivability", and given a choice between two dps players will tend to pick the one that outputs significantly higher raw numbers.
Sure you can say "Oh but FFs can take tools to survive better so they'll have to spend less time blocking/dying/etc". However, this response falls short when you look at just how big of a difference the DR bug made. In some cases the DPS increase was so big that it outweighed any of the benefits of being FF regarding that versatility. The second reason this response falls short is: healers. It's simply better to be a DPS character with obscenely high dps and no survival ability than it is to be a DPS character with moderate dps and the ability to keep themselves alive.
This is why you saw FF players who cared about that fact abandoning their dps FFs and instead rolling up an Unleashed. Which brings me to my next point: the DR bug was not a "feature" that all ATs enjoyed equally. Some ATs benefited a lot more, and so even as an AT-only player you would find your choices being manipulated towards those particular ATs. There's a reason the word "Unleashed" comes up so much after all.
So, not only did the DR bug not create an acceptable type of balance between ATs and FFs, it also didn't create an acceptable type of balance among ATs.
You know what really makes a kiga fight last a long time? People dying. Your own example undercuts you here.
The tradeoff between dps and survivability is that one makes things faster if you succeed, but it also involves risk. If you're so pro that you feel you can take that risk safely, well, then it sounds like the higher dps option is for you. But some people prefer the advantage of being able to definitely win the fight, even if they faceroll it.
Just because some people don't appreciate the niche of being able to do dps and something else, doesn't mean it isn't there.
Healers aren't always present. There is more to the game than cosmics. There are lairs, rampages, and alerts, for example.
The fact that some ATs benefited more than others isn't really an issue, because the thing that gave ATs a niche compared to one another was the fact that they all had different builds, and couldn't cherry pick one another's powers. No amount of dps could change the fact that the Unleashed had no lunge. Nothing the Behemoth could do would ever give it good ranged capability. Now, if you want to argue that some ATs were too powerful compared to the other ATs, well, that's fine (I'd even agree with you), but that's a different discussion. The DR bug allowed every class to have a niche (even if that niche wasn't always appreciated); now one single class hogs all of them. Therefore, the game is less balanced. There is no arguing with that.
You know what really makes a kiga fight last a long time? People dying. Your own example undercuts you here.
It would, except for the fact that healers exist, healing items exist, and everyone has a block, and these are the only things you need to survive consistently during Kiga as a dps. On top of that, you'll notice that ATs are getting more self-healing abilities during the revamp.
Just because some people don't appreciate the niche of being able to do dps and something else, doesn't mean it isn't there.
Absolutely. However, that in no way justifies the DR bug since you can consider ATs to simply be the equivalent to those FF characters that don't want to "do something else". Well, except hybrid ATs of course.
Healers aren't always present. There is more to the game than cosmics. There are lairs, rampages, and alerts, for example.
If you're running TA then you're going to have a healer. If you're running any other lair then you don't need a healer. If you're running FI then you're going to have a healer. If you're running any other rampage then you don't need a healer. You don't need a healer in alerts.
All your examples are terrible. In any situation where there needs to be a healer to succeed, there will be one... because why would anyone run those things without a healer present?
The fact that some ATs benefited more than others isn't really an issue, because the thing that gave ATs a niche compared to one another was the fact that they all had different builds, and couldn't cherry pick one another's powers. No amount of dps could change the fact that the Unleashed had no lunge. Nothing the Behemoth could do would ever give it good ranged capability. Now, if you want to argue that some ATs were too powerful compared to the other ATs, well, that's fine (I'd even agree with you), but that's a different discussion.
So now you're arguing that different ATs having different themes could make up for the fact that they do several thousand less dps? This is a conversation that has nothing to do with theme, so don't bother going for that angle. Stick to mechanics.
Unleashed with DR bug didn't need a lunge. Post DR bug Unleashed has a lunge. So that example is null. As for the niche of "ranged damage" ( assuming that's what you meant with your behemoth example ) that particular "niche" if we're gonna call it that ( I don't think niche's generally represent such a large portion of the sample ) will now be much more appreciated when the comparison of bugged dps is removed. I'm glad you agree that some ATs are more powerful than others - quite the controversial opinion I'm sure. However, that's not a different discussion because the DR bug was partially responsible for that situation. And no, it didn't allow every AT to have a niche - in fact, it caused some ATs to completely overshadow others in the same niche.
The DR bug allowed every class to have a niche (even if that niche wasn't always appreciated); now one single class hogs all of them. Therefore, the game is less balanced. There is no arguing with that.
Except is anyone actually with you on this "FF is a class" thing? You've still got a lot of headway to make on that front before anyone even has to start taking you seriously on comparisons between FF and AT is if they were all "classes". They're not, btw.
You clearly have no understanding of what DR even is... DR = Diminishing Returns... It's a limitation that is applied to stats values beyond a certain point, some have hard caps some have soft caps. A hard cap as the name implies is a solid limit, any value exceeding this limit is cut down to the cap. A soft cap is where DR tends to come into play, for example, if damage had a soft cap of +50% then any stat values that increased damage past that +50% mark would be at a severely reduced rate, What may have been + 1% per 1 point could easily be +1% per 100 points, making it an unrewarding investment.
That said, an Unleashed with 260 Con and low Str would NOT benefit from the DR bug, the bug only comes into play when their damage stats provide a bonus that exceeds the cap. If they didn't reach that point with their build then they are completely unaffected by the DR bug and any damage they were pulling was the exact same values they will be pulling without the DR bug in place.
You are forgetting about the dmg they get from buffs and/or passives, such as specs. and ss synergies. So, please, think before you post, since you clearly are the one not understanding. Oopsies.
Alright I have to chime in on that one at least, Diminishing Returns is always in effect, whether you add 1 point or 1000 points to something. There is no magical threshold that diminishing returns kicks in. Depending on the formula, the curve can be drastic or it can be gradual. Diminishing returns are essentially designed you will see large benefits in the early points but the more points you dump in the harder it will be to achieve another threshold of power. There is no absolute zero on returns but outside of certain events, it's almost near impossible to hit 100% in such a system either.
Of course this is not 100% true all the time because certain hard caps can also be placed into effect, or other things can completely bypass this curve to. It's one of the weird things about MMOs, the formulas are not always 100% closed and thus things tend to be added in that can bypass the curve completely, whether intentionally or not. Most of the time it's not however. The lack of DR on ATs was a very much not intended scenario, and no ATs do not deserve to have anything that puts them over FFs. They are alternative ways to play for players. You are free to play an AT if you want.
A lot of times "soft cap" is used to talk about a point that players have in general decided is the point at which further investment in a given stat is no longer worth it, even though there is no code implemented to cause an actual sharp drop in returns at that number.
Still waiting for enough ATs to be created to the point to where all of them are free and the best part of this game is the Freeforms that you do have to pay for. In my opinion, that's where the game shines is the Freeform capabilities (Besides the well known best customizations in a game period)
You clearly have no understanding of what DR even is... DR = Diminishing Returns... It's a limitation that is applied to stats values beyond a certain point, some have hard caps some have soft caps. A hard cap as the name implies is a solid limit, any value exceeding this limit is cut down to the cap. A soft cap is where DR tends to come into play, for example, if damage had a soft cap of +50% then any stat values that increased damage past that +50% mark would be at a severely reduced rate, What may have been + 1% per 1 point could easily be +1% per 100 points, making it an unrewarding investment.
That said, an Unleashed with 260 Con and low Str would NOT benefit from the DR bug, the bug only comes into play when their damage stats provide a bonus that exceeds the cap. If they didn't reach that point with their build then they are completely unaffected by the DR bug and any damage they were pulling was the exact same values they will be pulling without the DR bug in place.
You are forgetting about the dmg they get from buffs and/or passives, such as specs. and ss synergies. So, please, think before you post, since you clearly are the one not understanding. Oopsies.
No, I'm perfectly aware of how DR works. It's a mathematical curve. The "soft cap" is typically the point in the curve where the value of each individual point flips. If you were to look at it on a chart, the soft cap would be around the exact center of the curve. If your first point in a stat called "damage" provided you with +5 damage, and your 10th provided you with +1 damage, and every point after that provided a fraction of a point of damage, then your "soft cap" would be 10 as it would take 2 points or more per extra point of damage after 10. That is where the value flipped, the center of the curve.
Alright I have to chime in on that one at least, Diminishing Returns is always in effect, whether you add 1 point or 1000 points to something. There is no magical threshold that diminishing returns kicks in. Depending on the formula, the curve can be drastic or it can be gradual. Diminishing returns are essentially designed you will see large benefits in the early points but the more points you dump in the harder it will be to achieve another threshold of power. There is no absolute zero on returns but outside of certain events, it's almost near impossible to hit 100% in such a system either.
Of course this is not 100% true all the time because certain hard caps can also be placed into effect, or other things can completely bypass this curve to. It's one of the weird things about MMOs, the formulas are not always 100% closed and thus things tend to be added in that can bypass the curve completely, whether intentionally or not. Most of the time it's not however. The lack of DR on ATs was a very much not intended scenario, and no ATs do not deserve to have anything that puts them over FFs. They are alternative ways to play for players. You are free to play an AT if you want.
While yes, DR is always in effect, it is only really ever brought up as a concern when looking at the upper end of values. Or in other words, when approaching or exceeding the soft cap. I'm perfectly aware that it's all mathimatical and that there is no magical threshold where it kicks in. A build on the low end of the curve is going to see very little if any change between having DR in effect and not having DR in effect, however builds that have gone pat the center point in the curve will notice the change significantly more than others.
A lot of times "soft cap" is used to talk about a point that players have in general decided is the point at which further investment in a given stat is no longer worth it, even though there is no code implemented to cause an actual sharp drop in returns at that number.
Exactly, and typically speaking that point is right around the center of the curve.
A simple numerical example of DR with ratios.
1:5 1:4 1:3 1:2 1:1 2:1 3:1 4:1 5:1
the soft cap in this example is 1:1 since any further progress requires an increasingly larger investment to even see a change beyond the last.
To any who will argue this example is arbitrary and meaningless. Stats are essentually Ratios, 1 point = +X damage, health, resistance, or whatever. As your invested number of points in a stat grows, the ratio shrinks until it eventually flips.
It would, except for the fact that healers exist, healing items exist, and everyone has a block, and these are the only things you need to survive consistently during Kiga as a dps. On top of that, you'll notice that ATs are getting more self-healing abilities during the revamp.
Absolutely. However, that in no way justifies the DR bug since you can consider ATs to simply be the equivalent to those FF characters that don't want to "do something else". Well, except hybrid ATs of course.
If you're running TA then you're going to have a healer. If you're running any other lair then you don't need a healer. If you're running FI then you're going to have a healer. If you're running any other rampage then you don't need a healer. You don't need a healer in alerts.
All your examples are terrible. In any situation where there needs to be a healer to succeed, there will be one... because why would anyone run those things without a healer present?
So now you're arguing that different ATs having different themes could make up for the fact that they do several thousand less dps? This is a conversation that has nothing to do with theme, so don't bother going for that angle. Stick to mechanics.
Unleashed with DR bug didn't need a lunge. Post DR bug Unleashed has a lunge. So that example is null. As for the niche of "ranged damage" ( assuming that's what you meant with your behemoth example ) that particular "niche" if we're gonna call it that ( I don't think niche's generally represent such a large portion of the sample ) will now be much more appreciated when the comparison of bugged dps is removed. I'm glad you agree that some ATs are more powerful than others - quite the controversial opinion I'm sure. However, that's not a different discussion because the DR bug was partially responsible for that situation. And no, it didn't allow every AT to have a niche - in fact, it caused some ATs to completely overshadow others in the same niche.
Except is anyone actually with you on this "FF is a class" thing? You've still got a lot of headway to make on that front before anyone even has to start taking you seriously on comparisons between FF and AT is if they were all "classes". They're not, btw.
The point I was making is that durability does matter for dps. Otherwise, dps characters wouldn't bother with ADs or self-heals and such. The popularity of Con as a SS for dps also proves the point.
You're also forgetting places like Andrith or the Mandragalore, where you'll need a healer if you're squishy but not if you're very survivable. Then there's also Gravitar. If everyone there is a dps, and no one is especially survivable or bringing rezzes? You will not win. Those examples are just off the top of my head.
ATs can't be the equivalent of FF builds that "choose not to do something else" because FFs get two extra powers, the ability to cherry-pick their powers, and role switching. That can only be balanced out by AT-specific feature(s) of some sort. Plus, some ATs are already that when compared to one another.
I think you misunderstand when I say that AT-to-AT balance is based on powers. I don't mean that in terms of theme (theme isn't relevant here). I mean that different ATs have different powers that do different things, which other ATs can't replicate because they can't take the same powers. For example, the Behemoth and Glacier have different passives, which excel against different types of foes (Defiance is better against large hits, Invulnerability against many smaller ones). So, even though one may ultimately be stronger than the other overall, each one has something over the other. If you compare, say, the Automaton to the Soldier, the Automaton gets to have Con as a SS, but doesn't have a block power. And so on and so forth. And that's the bare minimum necessary for balance; everybody gets to have at least one thing over everybody else (not necessarily the same thing, mind you). One guy might have multiple things over everybody else, but again, we're talking bare minimum here.
You're being unnecessarily broad in what constitutes a niche. "Single Target melee Damage while also having a lunge and a self-rez" is a niche, for example. It's an incredibly specific one, but it's a heck of a lot better than nothing.
But let's pretend for a moment that I took your idea of dps being a single niche (regardless of variations and features) seriously. That would mean that pre-patch, two classes hogged all the niches (the Unleashed would have taken dps, and FFs all other ones), and now post-patch one class hogs them all. So, your claim that the game hasn't become less balanced is wrong even by your own logic.
FF is a class. This is a fact. When you start a Freeform character, you choose the "Freeform" class. No matter what kind of build you choose to make with your FF, it is still a FF. Come on, Spinny, you're just getting silly now. XD
It is a class this reaper guy is starting to make sense to me. Not that I care either way since dislike most of community but clearer terms of such would be appreciate from Cryptic's side not hyperbole from players.
You're being unnecessarily broad in what constitutes a niche. "Single Target melee Damage while also having a lunge and a self-rez" is a niche, for example. It's an incredibly specific one, but it's a heck of a lot better than nothing.
Lets look at the definition of niche shall we:
niche /niCH,nēSH/ adjective 1. denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.
The existence of "having a lunge and a self-rez" doesn't actually factor into a niche. A "Single Target Melee DPS" is a niche, a "Multi Target Melee DPS" is a niche, a "Spike Damage DPS" is a niche, a "High sustain, low damage, DPS" is a niche... You specialize in these particular areas, it doesn't matter if you have a lunge or a self-rez, that's not part of your specialization. Your niche is based on what your specialization is, extra elements that are not a factor of your specialization are similarly not a factor of your niche.
Now if you made a build that specialized in closing gaps and had multiple lunges and knock-to's then that would factor into a niche... a rather impractical and completely unnecessary one but one none-the-less. If having a lunge or a heal or whatever makes accomplishing your specialization easier, it still doesn't change your niche.
It Is not a class, stop claiming that. ATs are the pre-made decks and freeform is the custom one
Pretty much. Ranged DPS is ranged DPS. Which AT you use doesn't make much difference unless your team is using a similar theme. At which point you can exploit the debuffs your allies give to enemies.
You're being unnecessarily broad in what constitutes a niche. "Single Target melee Damage while also having a lunge and a self-rez" is a niche, for example. It's an incredibly specific one, but it's a heck of a lot better than nothing.
Lets look at the definition of niche shall we:
niche /niCH,nēSH/ adjective 1. denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.
The existence of "having a lunge and a self-rez" doesn't actually factor into a niche. A "Single Target Melee DPS" is a niche, a "Multi Target Melee DPS" is a niche, a "Spike Damage DPS" is a niche, a "High sustain, low damage, DPS" is a niche... You specialize in these particular areas, it doesn't matter if you have a lunge or a self-rez, that's not part of your specialization. Your niche is based on what your specialization is, extra elements that are not a factor of your specialization are similarly not a factor of your niche.
Now if you made a build that specialized in closing gaps and had multiple lunges and knock-to's then that would factor into a niche... a rather impractical and completely unnecessary one but one none-the-less. If having a lunge or a heal or whatever makes accomplishing your specialization easier, it still doesn't change your niche.
I don't think you actually read your own definition properly.
"Appealing to a small, specialized section of the population"
Like people who want to have a self-rez and be able to do dps? Or people who want to do dps without dying instantly if they take a hit?
Your definition pretty much exactly describes the pre-patch archetypes. XD
It Is not a class, stop claiming that. ATs are the pre-made decks and freeform is the custom one
False. You can switch out cards from a pre-made deck to turn it into a custom one. I therefore dismiss your false analogy.
FF being a class isn't even a claim. It's common sense. The game asks you what type of character you want to play, and you click one of the options. If you click Mind, you are a Mind, not a FF. If you click FF, you are a FF, not a Mind. The option you choose determines what capabilities your character has access to. That's what a class is.
You play an AT over an FF for one reason only. To prove that Cryptic sucks at making balanced pve, pvp etc systems. They truely do not my fault people are blind, biast or both. Settle it once and for all cryptic make your next AT called the Gimp so at least for once it would be honest unlike the rest of them. Make it hybrid role and its stats are Rec, End and Int and use only powers deemed broken beyond repair. Hell and choice levels have choice of a grade F power or another grade F power.
Give to no actives, no energy unlocks, no heals just all redundant attacks. But I doubt when trying to intentionally make something horrible you can even get that right. Oh and do not forget to put a pricetag on it also gotta sell inferior to.
If you're not enjoying the game any more, you should probably move on. I don't mean that in a "go away, we don't want you around" sense, I legitimately mean it in a "you clearly aren't having fun any more, and you might be happier if you found another game" sense.
I don't think you actually read your own definition properly.
"Appealing to a small, specialized section of the population"
Like people who want to have a self-rez and be able to do dps? Or people who want to do dps without dying instantly if they take a hit?
Your definition pretty much exactly describes the pre-patch archetypes. XD
Well, no. See if you look at ATs you'll notice that they tend to have a lot of attacks so that their abilities are versatile rather than restricted. There isn't a "single target dps" archetype or a "burst damage" archetype, they all generally have multiple aoe attacks and single target attacks that allow them to apply both burst and dps style damage in both manners. Archetypes seem quite purposefully made to NOT be niche builds - which makes sense because you want players to have some leniency in how they choose to play them and what situations they're good in. ATs are the reason I build many toons the way I do - because I grew to enjoy the versatility offered by having many attacks. And example of a "niche AT" would be if they made an AT version of a claws character I once made, who was completely based around single target burst - they had no aoe, and if they had to dps something it was done via burst attacks.
False. You can switch out cards from a pre-made deck to turn it into a custom one. I therefore dismiss your false analogy.
Not in this one M:tG game I played. You couldn't swap cards in from other decks, you could only modify decks with the cards that were assigned to it. You could also have a tournament where they forbid mixing decks. There are no "universal rules of decks", the rules are determined by whatever establishment you happen to be playing in. You're currently playing in CO and here you're not allowed to swap cards around unless you're a free form. The analogy stands.
FF being a class isn't even a claim. It's common sense. The game asks you what type of character you want to play, and you click one of the options. If you click Mind, you are a Mind, not a FF. If you click FF, you are a FF, not a Mind. The option you choose determines what capabilities your character has access to. That's what a class is.
Actually, what's common sense is that they're called Archetypes, not classes. You're using terminology from other games and trying to force it here because it helps your cause, but that makes your entire claim fallacious since you can't talk about elements of this game in this game's terms. The closest analogy we have here to "class" is "archetype", so you could make a claim that Archetypes are basically similar to classes in another game. However, Freeforms have never been referred to as Archetypes, so you could never make that claim towards them. When you pick a character you are picking either an Archetype or a Freeform. You could also state that as you are picking a class or a Freeform. However, the very nature of a class-based system could never be applied to Freeforms, since a "class" is a set of pre-defined abilities with a small amount of choice to make minor alterations - that's what a class is in gaming terms.
If you're not enjoying the game any more, you should probably move on. I don't mean that in a "go away, we don't want you around" sense, I legitimately mean it in a "you clearly aren't having fun any more, and you might be happier if you found another game" sense.
I think the only thing he logs in to do is whine in zone chat honestly, and I think that's all he's been doing for a while.
I don't think you actually read your own definition properly.
"Appealing to a small, specialized section of the population"
Like people who want to have a self-rez and be able to do dps? Or people who want to do dps without dying instantly if they take a hit?
Your definition pretty much exactly describes the pre-patch archetypes. XD
Well, no. See if you look at ATs you'll notice that they tend to have a lot of attacks so that their abilities are versatile rather than restricted. There isn't a "single target dps" archetype or a "burst damage" archetype, they all generally have multiple aoe attacks and single target attacks that allow them to apply both burst and dps style damage in both manners. Archetypes seem quite purposefully made to NOT be niche builds - which makes sense because you want players to have some leniency in how they choose to play them and what situations they're good in. ATs are the reason I build many toons the way I do - because I grew to enjoy the versatility offered by having many attacks. And example of a "niche AT" would be if they made an AT version of a claws character I once made, who was completely based around single target burst - they had no aoe, and if they had to dps something it was done via burst attacks.
False. You can switch out cards from a pre-made deck to turn it into a custom one. I therefore dismiss your false analogy.
Not in this one M:tG game I played. You couldn't swap cards in from other decks, you could only modify decks with the cards that were assigned to it. You could also have a tournament where they forbid mixing decks. There are no "universal rules of decks", the rules are determined by whatever establishment you happen to be playing in. You're currently playing in CO and here you're not allowed to swap cards around unless you're a free form. The analogy stands.
FF being a class isn't even a claim. It's common sense. The game asks you what type of character you want to play, and you click one of the options. If you click Mind, you are a Mind, not a FF. If you click FF, you are a FF, not a Mind. The option you choose determines what capabilities your character has access to. That's what a class is.
Actually, what's common sense is that they're called Archetypes, not classes. You're using terminology from other games and trying to force it here because it helps your cause, but that makes your entire claim fallacious since you can't talk about elements of this game in this game's terms. The closest analogy we have here to "class" is "archetype", so you could make a claim that Archetypes are basically similar to classes in another game. However, Freeforms have never been referred to as Archetypes, so you could never make that claim towards them. When you pick a character you are picking either an Archetype or a Freeform. You could also state that as you are picking a class or a Freeform. However, the very nature of a class-based system could never be applied to Freeforms, since a "class" is a set of pre-defined abilities with a small amount of choice to make minor alterations - that's what a class is in gaming terms.
If you have some feature (or combination of features) that no other class offers, you can fill a niche. That can come in the form of more damage, or more survivability, or the ability to inflict some obscure debuff that no one else can, or some unique combination of such features.
The idea of classes only allowing a small amount of choice is false. There are a wide variety of games where certain classes offer far more options than others. Most incarnations of Dungeons and Dragons are good examples.
The analogy also fails because FFs are not simply ATs that get to choose their powers. They also receive two additional powers and have the power to change roles as necessary (effectively a 15th power).
I should also point out that what you're referring to with that MtG example is what are known as "houserules". But even in such a scenario, all you've done is turn a classless system into a class-based one. The existence of ATs proves that CO is not classless.
"Character class" isn't simply a term from "other games". It's a term used to describe a system where you have the option to decide in advance what abilities your character can potentially access. It is just as applicable to CO as it is in any other game. You can call it something else if you want, but it changes nothing.
But, really, you want to argue over terminology now?
The analogy also fails because FFs are not simply ATs that get to choose their powers. They also receive two additional powers and have the power to change roles as necessary (effectively a 15th power).
Yes, there is a big difference between ATs and FFs isn't there? Further cementing the fact that you can't just lump them all together as "different classes".
"Character class" isn't simply a term from "other games". It's a term used to describe a system where you have the option to decide in advance what abilities your character can potentially access. It is just as applicable to CO as it is in any other game. You can call it something else if you want, but it changes nothing.
Yes, it is applicable to CO: When you're talking about Archetypes. I already pointed that out so I'm not sure what you felt restating that would accomplish. It is not applicable to FFs however. There's a reason that for years now people have made the distinction between CO's Freeform System, and a class-based system. I realize that you want to fight against that fact, but you don't seem to be making any headway, with me or anyone else.
I've only played a few other games that had an equivalent of freeform(such as Freelancer in FF5).... In both of them you had the ability to change classes easily, and in fact you powered up your freeform equivalent by mastering all of the classes. So even in those games the freeform was the most powerful class by design. So much so that late game bosses are near impossible to beat as a non-freeform. Go ahead, challenge Omega as an ordinary class, I dare you!
The analogy also fails because FFs are not simply ATs that get to choose their powers. They also receive two additional powers and have the power to change roles as necessary (effectively a 15th power).
Yes, there is a big difference between ATs and FFs isn't there? Further cementing the fact that you can't just lump them all together as "different classes".
If there is a fundamental distinction between FFs and ATs, then that is a class system. You've made my point for me.
You don't like that term? Okay, then, we'll use another one. Before the patch, each predefined set of character options had a niche. After the patch, one predefined set of character options has a stranglehold over all niches. This constitutes a decrease in balance.
As we've gone over before, FF slots can be obtained without money, so that particular argument isn't applicable.
ORLY? Go ahead and calculate how much Q you'd have to grind for to get 20 FF slots.... Then calculate how many hours of game play would be required. Then try to tell me with a straight face that it's "Free"....
As we've gone over before, FF slots can be obtained without money, so that particular argument isn't applicable.
ORLY? Go ahead and calculate how much Q you'd have to grind for to get 20 FF slots.... Then calculate how many hours of game play would be required. Then try to tell me with a straight face that it's "Free"....
After the patch, one predefined set of character options has a stranglehold over all niches. This constitutes a decrease in balance.
No, like I said about Freelancers in FF5, Freeform is DESIGNED to be the "one class to rule them all".
Reaper's definition of balance is no way near the definition of balance as understood for this game.
ATs were NEVER meant to be equal to FFs and they did not exist prior to the game going free to play. Any other argument is silly based on these historical facts. If the game had never gone free to play (and the devs and business had never decided to give a free option) ATs would never have existed.
They could have gone the WoW way which is to let you play a character to like 20 and cut you off. Thankfully they didn't do that. That is the only reason ATs exist. There were never meant to be equivalent or any way near FFs. Ever.
Let's be clear again: Free < Paid A Little < Paid More. It's the way ALLLLLLLLLL of life works. No reason it should be different here.
It's the way the Human Business World works because mass conformity, acceptance and belief (Not to mention a system based on this, just because everyone else does it, doesn't make it right), as long as people believe in the arbitrary numbers running their lives then it will continue to be perpetuated and be manipulated, spreading disparity, segregation, anguish and exploitation, we all have a choice in life, you can choose to be a self absorbed, self serving animal, be a conscious, understanding and supportive sentient being or a Neutral observer.
Also relating to this Topic, they should make AT's incredibly cheap or Free with the DR Bug Fixed.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
Let's be clear again: Free < Paid A Little < Paid More. It's the way ALLLLLLLLLL of life works. No reason it should be different here.
It's the way the Human Business World works because mass conformity, acceptance and belief (Not to mention a system based on this, just because everyone else does it, doesn't make it right), as long as people believe in the arbitrary numbers running their lives then it will continue to be perpetuated and be manipulated, spreading disparity, segregation, anguish and exploitation, we all have a choice in life, you can choose to be a self absorbed, self serving animal, be a conscious, understanding and supportive sentient being or a Neutral observer.
Oh please, spare us your pseudo-philosophy. What does that have anything to do with anything? Are you saying you are going to start buying FF slots for everyone who claims they can't afford it?
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Equal or not, i'm having a blast. Most FFs are Failforms, anyway. The ones with 20k hp who deal 1k crits are my favorite ones. So playing an AT properly, can net better results than playing one of the copy/paste Failforms.
In the end, it is all about gaming skill and i have to admit, Reaper has a ton of it.
As we've gone over before, FF slots can be obtained without money, so that particular argument isn't applicable.
ORLY? Go ahead and calculate how much Q you'd have to grind for to get 20 FF slots.... Then calculate how many hours of game play would be required. Then try to tell me with a straight face that it's "Free"....
After the patch, one predefined set of character options has a stranglehold over all niches. This constitutes a decrease in balance.
No, like I said about Freelancers in FF5, Freeform is DESIGNED to be the "one class to rule them all".
No one said anything about 20 FF slots. I don't know where you're getting this.
We've gone over the intent thing before. It's a dishonest argument. More importantly, you've effectively conceded the point that the patch has decreased game balance. But once you accept the idea that game balance doesn't matter, then all the balance patches over the past year become pointless at best, and negative for the game at worst. You can't have it both ways. If balance matters, then the patch made the game worse. If balance doesn't matter, then all the balance patches over the last year made the game worse.
As we've gone over before, FF slots can be obtained without money, so that particular argument isn't applicable.
Then they definitely need to quit doing that.
Too late. Changing it now wouldn't do anything about all the ones that have already been given out.
But even if they could somehow retroactively get rid of all FF slots that didn't come from real money (which isn't possible), it still wouldn't change anything, because Golds would still have access to ATs.
As we've gone over before, FF slots can be obtained without money, so that particular argument isn't applicable.
ORLY? Go ahead and calculate how much Q you'd have to grind for to get 20 FF slots.... Then calculate how many hours of game play would be required. Then try to tell me with a straight face that it's "Free"....
After the patch, one predefined set of character options has a stranglehold over all niches. This constitutes a decrease in balance.
No, like I said about Freelancers in FF5, Freeform is DESIGNED to be the "one class to rule them all".
Reaper's definition of balance is no way near the definition of balance as understood for this game.
ATs were NEVER meant to be equal to FFs and they did not exist prior to the game going free to play. Any other argument is silly based on these historical facts. If the game had never gone free to play (and the devs and business had never decided to give a free option) ATs would never have existed.
They could have gone the WoW way which is to let you play a character to like 20 and cut you off. Thankfully they didn't do that. That is the only reason ATs exist. There were never meant to be equivalent or any way near FFs. Ever.
Balance is balance. There is no "my definition of it" or "CO's definition of it".
Again, the developer intent argument. It wasn't intended that FFs be able to solo Andrith. Does that mean Cryptic should nerf FFs down to the point where it's no longer possible?
The order in which classes were introduced to the game has no impact on balance. And if it did, well, the game has been class-based for far, far longer than it was classless.
If your argument forces you into the position that game balance is somehow a bad thing, that indicates a poor argument.
Are you saying you are going to start buying FF slots for everyone who claims they can't afford it?
They could be just as easily handed out like anyone can choose to do anything, like helping others or improve your experience, like that Free Free-form months back, I'm sure that wasn't just because they were spontaneously feeling generous. :P
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
We've gone over the intent thing before. It's a dishonest argument. More importantly, you've effectively conceded the point that the patch has decreased game balance. But once you accept the idea that game balance doesn't matter, then all the balance patches over the past year become pointless at best
Not correct. The balance patches have been patches about balance between freeforms. There is no attempt to achieve balance between AT and FF.
So how would you balance ATs vs freeform ? ATs are supposed to be limited(and are not supposed to do more damage than a well-built FF) I don't mind if ATs get special cosmetics or whatever, but the DR BUG was bad for balance.
We've gone over the intent thing before. It's a dishonest argument. More importantly, you've effectively conceded the point that the patch has decreased game balance. But once you accept the idea that game balance doesn't matter, then all the balance patches over the past year become pointless at best, and negative for the game at worst. You can't have it both ways. If balance matters, then the patch made the game worse. If balance doesn't matter, then all the balance patches over the last year made the game worse.
He didn't concede anything actually - you're reaching pretty hard if you think anything he typed communicates that "game balance was decreased".
Accepting the idea that game balance doesn't matter is a pretty ridiculous notion - you're basically saying "games don't need to be designed well" when you say that. You're basically trying to argue against the foundations of good game design. Good luck with that.
Also, there's no "having it both ways". Balance does matter, and all the balance patches, including the one that fixed the DR bug, made the game better because balance matters. That's kinda how that works: if balance matters, then improvements to game balance are good.
Balance is balance. There is no "my definition of it" or "CO's definition of it".
That's not true at all. There is no one-size-fits-all concept of balance - what constitutes good balance is defined by the mechanics of the game in question. For example a game like Dead By Daylight has a very different concept of good balance than something like Street Fighter. If you tried to take each games concept of balance and apply it to the other you would completely mess up each game's gameplay dynamic. The design determines what balanced means.
Again, the developer intent argument. It wasn't intended that FFs be able to solo Andrith. Does that mean Cryptic should nerf FFs down to the point where it's no longer possible?
That, or buff up the content to the acceptable challenge level. They've generally been doing more of the latter. I mean what are you even arguing here anymore, that they should never change anything to be the way it was intended? Mistakes should never be corrected? Improvements never made? What sort of world do you live in where that's a good plan of action.
The order in which classes were introduced to the game has no impact on balance. And if it did, well, the game has been class-based for far, far longer than it was classless.
But once you accept the idea that game balance doesn't matter
Because it makes it sound like your position is that game balance is somehow a bad thing. Don't worry about darqaura being in that position though because nothing he said in any way indicates that his position is that game balance is a bad thing - to the contrary, he realizes that ATs being weaker than FFs is the intent of the design, and hence is the state in which the game is properly balanced.
Balance is balance. There is no "my definition of it" or "CO's definition of it".
Again, the developer intent argument. It wasn't intended that FFs be able to solo Andrith. Does that mean Cryptic should nerf FFs down to the point where it's no longer possible?
The order in which classes were introduced to the game has no impact on balance. And if it did, well, the game has been class-based for far, far longer than it was classless.
If your argument forces you into the position that game balance is somehow a bad thing, that indicates a poor argument.
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The FFs and ATs were not meant to be equal in power or ability full stop. Any other argument is nonsense. It has absolutely nothing to do with balance BETWEEN THEM.
And in terms of balancing POWERS and FRAMEWORKS and HOW THEY INTERACT developer intent does matter. It's there game. They can balance it any which way we they like. If you choose not to accept that balance philosophy there are other games to play.
Again intent was NEVER to have balance between ATs and FFs. ATs were, are, and will always be meant to be the red-headed step child when compared to ATs.
You are simply not getting that ATs wouldn't even exist if the devs didn't decide to throw in a free to play bone.
There is absolutely no reason that ATs should equal in power to FFs.
We've gone over the intent thing before. It's a dishonest argument. More importantly, you've effectively conceded the point that the patch has decreased game balance. But once you accept the idea that game balance doesn't matter, then all the balance patches over the past year become pointless at best
Not correct. The balance patches have been patches about balance between freeforms. There is no attempt to achieve balance between AT and FF.
Balance is balance. There is no "my definition of it" or "CO's definition of it".
Again, the developer intent argument. It wasn't intended that FFs be able to solo Andrith. Does that mean Cryptic should nerf FFs down to the point where it's no longer possible?
The order in which classes were introduced to the game has no impact on balance. And if it did, well, the game has been class-based for far, far longer than it was classless.
If your argument forces you into the position that game balance is somehow a bad thing, that indicates a poor argument.
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The FFs and ATs were not meant to be equal in power or ability full stop. Any other argument is nonsense. It has absolutely nothing to do with balance BETWEEN THEM.
And in terms of balancing POWERS and FRAMEWORKS and HOW THEY INTERACT developer intent does matter. It's their game. They can balance it any which way we they like. If you choose not to accept that balance philosophy there are other games to play.
Again intent was NEVER to have balance between ATs and FFs. ATs were, are, and will always be meant to be the red-headed step child when compared to the ability to choose any and all powers in a free formed manner.
You are simply not getting that ATs wouldn't even exist if the devs didn't decide to throw in a free to play bone.
There is absolutely no reason that ATs should equal in power to FFs.
To be even clearer: FFs ARE CHAMPIONS ONLINE. ATs were and are something tacked on so that a non-subscription model exists. And you seemed to ignore my earlier point to this, so let me state it clearly again:
The devs could have just gone the WoW method of you playing a limited FF to level 20 (or more realistically level 10) and called it a day. They wanted a more robust option that didn't take away too much from the main selling point of this game: Freeform. That is the only reason ATs exist. Developer intent matters.
In fact at the time when CO came out one of the selling points was that it moved away from the Archtype/Class-based schtick that City of Heroes had going. Folks had been asking for years in that game to be able to choose powers freely and the devs of that game kept saying "it would be too hard to do this, we'd have to build it from scratch, etc". Well the devs of this game did just that. Hence FF. A CLASS-LESS (this was stressed by most of the news about CO repeatedly) system for building superheros. It was close (but not exactly for reasons we can't get into here) the HERO system for table top RPGs.
FFs were and are the primary focus of this game. ATs were never meant to be equal to them and still aren't.
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But it's more than just exact builds. I've done a lot experimenting to see what I can build to maximize DPS output. No matter how twinky, how min-maxy I make a build, and I'm pretty darn good at it (plus, I ask all the experts), I always end up losing to the top DPS AT builds. Even with better gear.
PLUS, I had to PAY for that FF. If there is any definition of unfair and unbalanced, that right there is it.
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Making DPS that could survive better
Making DPS that could bring a rez (expecting a healer to stop healing when people are dropping is dumb)
Making DPS that could break out of CC more often
Making DPS that can change role as needed
Making DPS with access to powers that ATs can't take (sometimes powers that an equivalent AT can't take, and sometimes powers that no AT can take)
It's not all about the raw damage numbers. Heck, it almost never is, because dps rarely matters in CO anyway. There's, what, 6 areas where you actually need dps to win? And even then, you only need enough to hit the dps check (which FFs could easily do); having more just allows you to carry more. And with the exception of FM, survivability is still more important than damage in those areas.
This is why people have trouble hitting easy dps checks on Teleiosaurus; dps is so unimportant in CO that players are almost never punished for being bad at it until they hit the endgame. As a result, people end up with builds that are terrible at it.
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Block timing explained
Also, DPS matters for a dps more than just about anything else because of the simple long-standing reality that high dps = shorter fights, and shorter fights = faster loot. This is why the claim that "FFs have other stuff they can have" rings hollow because a dps toon is there to deal dps, and to make the fight shorter. That's why you don't see just a bunch of tanks and healers at Kiga despite the fact that there is no dps check in that fight. Time is a limited resource, and higher dps means we have to invest less of that resource into a fight. This is a long standing fact of MMOs in general. It's rather unusual to see a group specifically ask for "dps with high survivability", and given a choice between two dps players will tend to pick the one that outputs significantly higher raw numbers.
Sure you can say "Oh but FFs can take tools to survive better so they'll have to spend less time blocking/dying/etc". However, this response falls short when you look at just how big of a difference the DR bug made. In some cases the DPS increase was so big that it outweighed any of the benefits of being FF regarding that versatility. The second reason this response falls short is: healers. It's simply better to be a DPS character with obscenely high dps and no survival ability than it is to be a DPS character with moderate dps and the ability to keep themselves alive.
This is why you saw FF players who cared about that fact abandoning their dps FFs and instead rolling up an Unleashed. Which brings me to my next point: the DR bug was not a "feature" that all ATs enjoyed equally. Some ATs benefited a lot more, and so even as an AT-only player you would find your choices being manipulated towards those particular ATs. There's a reason the word "Unleashed" comes up so much after all.
So, not only did the DR bug not create an acceptable type of balance between ATs and FFs, it also didn't create an acceptable type of balance among ATs.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
The tradeoff between dps and survivability is that one makes things faster if you succeed, but it also involves risk. If you're so pro that you feel you can take that risk safely, well, then it sounds like the higher dps option is for you. But some people prefer the advantage of being able to definitely win the fight, even if they faceroll it.
Just because some people don't appreciate the niche of being able to do dps and something else, doesn't mean it isn't there.
Healers aren't always present. There is more to the game than cosmics. There are lairs, rampages, and alerts, for example.
The fact that some ATs benefited more than others isn't really an issue, because the thing that gave ATs a niche compared to one another was the fact that they all had different builds, and couldn't cherry pick one another's powers. No amount of dps could change the fact that the Unleashed had no lunge. Nothing the Behemoth could do would ever give it good ranged capability. Now, if you want to argue that some ATs were too powerful compared to the other ATs, well, that's fine (I'd even agree with you), but that's a different discussion. The DR bug allowed every class to have a niche (even if that niche wasn't always appreciated); now one single class hogs all of them. Therefore, the game is less balanced. There is no arguing with that.
If you're running FI then you're going to have a healer. If you're running any other rampage then you don't need a healer.
You don't need a healer in alerts.
All your examples are terrible. In any situation where there needs to be a healer to succeed, there will be one... because why would anyone run those things without a healer present?
So now you're arguing that different ATs having different themes could make up for the fact that they do several thousand less dps? This is a conversation that has nothing to do with theme, so don't bother going for that angle. Stick to mechanics.
Unleashed with DR bug didn't need a lunge. Post DR bug Unleashed has a lunge. So that example is null.
As for the niche of "ranged damage" ( assuming that's what you meant with your behemoth example ) that particular "niche" if we're gonna call it that ( I don't think niche's generally represent such a large portion of the sample ) will now be much more appreciated when the comparison of bugged dps is removed.
I'm glad you agree that some ATs are more powerful than others - quite the controversial opinion I'm sure. However, that's not a different discussion because the DR bug was partially responsible for that situation. And no, it didn't allow every AT to have a niche - in fact, it caused some ATs to completely overshadow others in the same niche.
Except is anyone actually with you on this "FF is a class" thing? You've still got a lot of headway to make on that front before anyone even has to start taking you seriously on comparisons between FF and AT is if they were all "classes". They're not, btw.
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You are forgetting about the dmg they get from buffs and/or passives, such as specs. and ss synergies. So, please, think before you post, since you clearly are the one not understanding. Oopsies.
Of course this is not 100% true all the time because certain hard caps can also be placed into effect, or other things can completely bypass this curve to. It's one of the weird things about MMOs, the formulas are not always 100% closed and thus things tend to be added in that can bypass the curve completely, whether intentionally or not. Most of the time it's not however. The lack of DR on ATs was a very much not intended scenario, and no ATs do not deserve to have anything that puts them over FFs. They are alternative ways to play for players. You are free to play an AT if you want.
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
In my opinion, that's where the game shines is the Freeform capabilities (Besides the well known best customizations in a game period)
A simple numerical example of DR with ratios.
1:5
1:4
1:3
1:2
1:1
2:1
3:1
4:1
5:1
the soft cap in this example is 1:1 since any further progress requires an increasingly larger investment to even see a change beyond the last.
To any who will argue this example is arbitrary and meaningless. Stats are essentually Ratios, 1 point = +X damage, health, resistance, or whatever. As your invested number of points in a stat grows, the ratio shrinks until it eventually flips.
You're also forgetting places like Andrith or the Mandragalore, where you'll need a healer if you're squishy but not if you're very survivable. Then there's also Gravitar. If everyone there is a dps, and no one is especially survivable or bringing rezzes? You will not win. Those examples are just off the top of my head.
ATs can't be the equivalent of FF builds that "choose not to do something else" because FFs get two extra powers, the ability to cherry-pick their powers, and role switching. That can only be balanced out by AT-specific feature(s) of some sort. Plus, some ATs are already that when compared to one another.
I think you misunderstand when I say that AT-to-AT balance is based on powers. I don't mean that in terms of theme (theme isn't relevant here). I mean that different ATs have different powers that do different things, which other ATs can't replicate because they can't take the same powers. For example, the Behemoth and Glacier have different passives, which excel against different types of foes (Defiance is better against large hits, Invulnerability against many smaller ones). So, even though one may ultimately be stronger than the other overall, each one has something over the other. If you compare, say, the Automaton to the Soldier, the Automaton gets to have Con as a SS, but doesn't have a block power. And so on and so forth. And that's the bare minimum necessary for balance; everybody gets to have at least one thing over everybody else (not necessarily the same thing, mind you). One guy might have multiple things over everybody else, but again, we're talking bare minimum here.
You're being unnecessarily broad in what constitutes a niche. "Single Target melee Damage while also having a lunge and a self-rez" is a niche, for example. It's an incredibly specific one, but it's a heck of a lot better than nothing.
But let's pretend for a moment that I took your idea of dps being a single niche (regardless of variations and features) seriously. That would mean that pre-patch, two classes hogged all the niches (the Unleashed would have taken dps, and FFs all other ones), and now post-patch one class hogs them all. So, your claim that the game hasn't become less balanced is wrong even by your own logic.
FF is a class. This is a fact. When you start a Freeform character, you choose the "Freeform" class. No matter what kind of build you choose to make with your FF, it is still a FF. Come on, Spinny, you're just getting silly now. XD
#FAKENEWS
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
/niCH,nēSH/
adjective
1.
denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population.
The existence of "having a lunge and a self-rez" doesn't actually factor into a niche. A "Single Target Melee DPS" is a niche, a "Multi Target Melee DPS" is a niche, a "Spike Damage DPS" is a niche, a "High sustain, low damage, DPS" is a niche... You specialize in these particular areas, it doesn't matter if you have a lunge or a self-rez, that's not part of your specialization. Your niche is based on what your specialization is, extra elements that are not a factor of your specialization are similarly not a factor of your niche.
Now if you made a build that specialized in closing gaps and had multiple lunges and knock-to's then that would factor into a niche... a rather impractical and completely unnecessary one but one none-the-less. If having a lunge or a heal or whatever makes accomplishing your specialization easier, it still doesn't change your niche.
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
"Appealing to a small, specialized section of the population"
Like people who want to have a self-rez and be able to do dps? Or people who want to do dps without dying instantly if they take a hit?
Your definition pretty much exactly describes the pre-patch archetypes. XD False. You can switch out cards from a pre-made deck to turn it into a custom one. I therefore dismiss your false analogy.
FF being a class isn't even a claim. It's common sense. The game asks you what type of character you want to play, and you click one of the options. If you click Mind, you are a Mind, not a FF. If you click FF, you are a FF, not a Mind. The option you choose determines what capabilities your character has access to. That's what a class is. If you're not enjoying the game any more, you should probably move on. I don't mean that in a "go away, we don't want you around" sense, I legitimately mean it in a "you clearly aren't having fun any more, and you might be happier if you found another game" sense.
Actually, what's common sense is that they're called Archetypes, not classes. You're using terminology from other games and trying to force it here because it helps your cause, but that makes your entire claim fallacious since you can't talk about elements of this game in this game's terms. The closest analogy we have here to "class" is "archetype", so you could make a claim that Archetypes are basically similar to classes in another game. However, Freeforms have never been referred to as Archetypes, so you could never make that claim towards them. When you pick a character you are picking either an Archetype or a Freeform. You could also state that as you are picking a class or a Freeform. However, the very nature of a class-based system could never be applied to Freeforms, since a "class" is a set of pre-defined abilities with a small amount of choice to make minor alterations - that's what a class is in gaming terms. I think the only thing he logs in to do is whine in zone chat honestly, and I think that's all he's been doing for a while.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The idea of classes only allowing a small amount of choice is false. There are a wide variety of games where certain classes offer far more options than others. Most incarnations of Dungeons and Dragons are good examples.
The analogy also fails because FFs are not simply ATs that get to choose their powers. They also receive two additional powers and have the power to change roles as necessary (effectively a 15th power).
I should also point out that what you're referring to with that MtG example is what are known as "houserules". But even in such a scenario, all you've done is turn a classless system into a class-based one. The existence of ATs proves that CO is not classless.
"Character class" isn't simply a term from "other games". It's a term used to describe a system where you have the option to decide in advance what abilities your character can potentially access. It is just as applicable to CO as it is in any other game. You can call it something else if you want, but it changes nothing.
But, really, you want to argue over terminology now?
Yes, there is a big difference between ATs and FFs isn't there? Further cementing the fact that you can't just lump them all together as "different classes".
Yes, it is applicable to CO: When you're talking about Archetypes. I already pointed that out so I'm not sure what you felt restating that would accomplish. It is not applicable to FFs however. There's a reason that for years now people have made the distinction between CO's Freeform System, and a class-based system. I realize that you want to fight against that fact, but you don't seem to be making any headway, with me or anyone else.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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Free < Paid A Little < Paid More. It's the way ALLLLLLLLLL of life works. No reason it should be different here.
You want a really, really, really good reason to play an AT. It's FREE.
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Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
You don't like that term? Okay, then, we'll use another one. Before the patch, each predefined set of character options had a niche. After the patch, one predefined set of character options has a stranglehold over all niches. This constitutes a decrease in balance.
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ATs were NEVER meant to be equal to FFs and they did not exist prior to the game going free to play. Any other argument is silly based on these historical facts. If the game had never gone free to play (and the devs and business had never decided to give a free option) ATs would never have existed.
They could have gone the WoW way which is to let you play a character to like 20 and cut you off. Thankfully they didn't do that. That is the only reason ATs exist. There were never meant to be equivalent or any way near FFs. Ever.
Also relating to this Topic, they should make AT's incredibly cheap or Free with the DR Bug Fixed.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
In the end, it is all about gaming skill and i have to admit, Reaper has a ton of it.
We've gone over the intent thing before. It's a dishonest argument. More importantly, you've effectively conceded the point that the patch has decreased game balance. But once you accept the idea that game balance doesn't matter, then all the balance patches over the past year become pointless at best, and negative for the game at worst. You can't have it both ways. If balance matters, then the patch made the game worse. If balance doesn't matter, then all the balance patches over the last year made the game worse. Too late. Changing it now wouldn't do anything about all the ones that have already been given out.
But even if they could somehow retroactively get rid of all FF slots that didn't come from real money (which isn't possible), it still wouldn't change anything, because Golds would still have access to ATs. Balance is balance. There is no "my definition of it" or "CO's definition of it".
Again, the developer intent argument. It wasn't intended that FFs be able to solo Andrith. Does that mean Cryptic should nerf FFs down to the point where it's no longer possible?
The order in which classes were introduced to the game has no impact on balance. And if it did, well, the game has been class-based for far, far longer than it was classless.
If your argument forces you into the position that game balance is somehow a bad thing, that indicates a poor argument.
Right here To the answer 'why these systems exist in general.' as in AT's and Freeforms in this Thread. They could be just as easily handed out like anyone can choose to do anything, like helping others or improve your experience, like that Free Free-form months back, I'm sure that wasn't just because they were spontaneously feeling generous. :P
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Accepting the idea that game balance doesn't matter is a pretty ridiculous notion - you're basically saying "games don't need to be designed well" when you say that. You're basically trying to argue against the foundations of good game design. Good luck with that.
Also, there's no "having it both ways". Balance does matter, and all the balance patches, including the one that fixed the DR bug, made the game better because balance matters. That's kinda how that works: if balance matters, then improvements to game balance are good.
That's not true at all. There is no one-size-fits-all concept of balance - what constitutes good balance is defined by the mechanics of the game in question. For example a game like Dead By Daylight has a very different concept of good balance than something like Street Fighter. If you tried to take each games concept of balance and apply it to the other you would completely mess up each game's gameplay dynamic. The design determines what balanced means.
That, or buff up the content to the acceptable challenge level. They've generally been doing more of the latter. I mean what are you even arguing here anymore, that they should never change anything to be the way it was intended? Mistakes should never be corrected? Improvements never made? What sort of world do you live in where that's a good plan of action.
Partially class-based. FFs aren't a class.
Really? Well then you probably shouldn't have typed this... Because it makes it sound like your position is that game balance is somehow a bad thing. Don't worry about darqaura being in that position though because nothing he said in any way indicates that his position is that game balance is a bad thing - to the contrary, he realizes that ATs being weaker than FFs is the intent of the design, and hence is the state in which the game is properly balanced.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The FFs and ATs were not meant to be equal in power or ability full stop. Any other argument is nonsense. It has absolutely nothing to do with balance BETWEEN THEM.
And in terms of balancing POWERS and FRAMEWORKS and HOW THEY INTERACT developer intent does matter. It's there game. They can balance it any which way we they like. If you choose not to accept that balance philosophy there are other games to play.
Again intent was NEVER to have balance between ATs and FFs. ATs were, are, and will always be meant to be the red-headed step child when compared to ATs.
You are simply not getting that ATs wouldn't even exist if the devs didn't decide to throw in a free to play bone.
There is absolutely no reason that ATs should equal in power to FFs.
The FFs and ATs were not meant to be equal in power or ability full stop. Any other argument is nonsense. It has absolutely nothing to do with balance BETWEEN THEM.
And in terms of balancing POWERS and FRAMEWORKS and HOW THEY INTERACT developer intent does matter. It's their game. They can balance it any which way we they like. If you choose not to accept that balance philosophy there are other games to play.
Again intent was NEVER to have balance between ATs and FFs. ATs were, are, and will always be meant to be the red-headed step child when compared to the ability to choose any and all powers in a free formed manner.
You are simply not getting that ATs wouldn't even exist if the devs didn't decide to throw in a free to play bone.
There is absolutely no reason that ATs should equal in power to FFs.
To be even clearer: FFs ARE CHAMPIONS ONLINE. ATs were and are something tacked on so that a non-subscription model exists. And you seemed to ignore my earlier point to this, so let me state it clearly again:
The devs could have just gone the WoW method of you playing a limited FF to level 20 (or more realistically level 10) and called it a day. They wanted a more robust option that didn't take away too much from the main selling point of this game: Freeform. That is the only reason ATs exist. Developer intent matters.
In fact at the time when CO came out one of the selling points was that it moved away from the Archtype/Class-based schtick that City of Heroes had going. Folks had been asking for years in that game to be able to choose powers freely and the devs of that game kept saying "it would be too hard to do this, we'd have to build it from scratch, etc". Well the devs of this game did just that. Hence FF. A CLASS-LESS (this was stressed by most of the news about CO repeatedly) system for building superheros. It was close (but not exactly for reasons we can't get into here) the HERO system for table top RPGs.
FFs were and are the primary focus of this game. ATs were never meant to be equal to them and still aren't.