Even if this were true, which I find unlikely, it is irrelevant. If an LTS wants to play an AT, but is not allowed to unlock an actual AT, all they have to do is copy the build with an FF slot. Ergo, irrelevant.
Or they could set up a second account that was F2P.
Granted, in that case they would not have all of the costume unlocks and such that the gold account might have, but the point is that they would still have access to ATs.
The argument that golds should not get AT access is ludicrous.
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So ATs just become "demo mode"? So what?
As it is a person can play the game 100% free. Every fight, every mission, every level, and can do so using a variety of different character types with a variety of different powers.
If that's not good enough for you then feel free to go play something else.
I play Silver most of the time, and put time cards on whenever I get one for a Christmas of Birthday gift. I have the freebie Freeform slot given out a while back. So, I'm mostly a Silver player who intermittently goes Gold. Usually around holidays/events. I mostly solo or do alerts, with the occasional team up for group stuff.
I usually use my monthly stipends from my time card stints for costume sets or sometimes an AT. I've got the following ATs at 40, mostly geared in Heroic gear or Mercenary gear for those that leveled after the cost bump, with either purple or Armadillo secondaries (so, pretty average gear): Inventor (bought soon after FTP launched for real money), Marksman, Tempest (bought w/stipend), Devastator (unlocked through promo), Unleashed, Glacier, Inferno, Grimoire, Behemoth, Scourge (bought w/stipend), Automaton, Soldier and a Blade at 36.
So, as a casual player, I've made pretty good use of the AT system. I don't think my gear level is high enough to gain much benefit from the lack of DR on my characters. All have been playable, though some are a bit squishy in group content and die fast if they pull aggro.
Which brings up the biggest problem with ATs: Survivability. This stems from the ATs being designed around a Holy Trinity model, where the rest of the game isn't, and in a player environment where Trinity mechanics/tactics are largely ignored by groups. This includes other AT players. There's no guarantee that the guy with the tank or support symbol over their head can hold aggro or toss out any support or has any desire to do so. Survivability powers are often late in progression as well, so low level ATs tend to face plant a lot.
It looks like the current round of AT revamps is making a good attempt to fix both the issue of lack of survival tools for ATs and power progression, and that the devs have been responsive to player input in redesigning the ATs. I see these changes as mostly for the good. Therefore, I don't really care about the DR bug fix. I'd rather have more fun by having more up time and less time staring at the floor. That floor-staring time is one of the bigger turn offs for new players, I think.
Does the DR fix disincentivize Gold or LTS players from using the ATs? Sure. Should it matter? No. Should there be a further incentive for Gold/LTS players to use ATs? No.
What do Golds/LTS have left as a reason to play ATs after the DR nerf? Well, they can still use the ATs as examples of basic, workable character builds. They can either play the AT or copy it to get a feel for a power set, and then retcon to optimize it (in the case of a FF copy of an AT build). I think that the revamped builds will serve as better examples in that regard.
But really, the ATs . . . brace yourselves . . . ARE NOT MEANT FOR GOLD OR LTS PLAYERS. So get over it. They're introductory, slightly sub-optimal builds meant to introduce players to the game. The only thing they need to be is functional enough to keep the Silver-only players logged in so there are more players to play with. And they always have been if the group is following a Holy Trinity setup and tactics. That, however, sucks for pick up group play, but it looks like it's being corrected with the updates.
Even if this were true, which I find unlikely, it is irrelevant. If an LTS wants to play an AT, but is not allowed to unlock an actual AT, all they have to do is copy the build with an FF slot. Ergo, irrelevant.
Or they could set up a second account that was F2P.
Granted, in that case they would not have all of the costume unlocks and such that the gold account might have, but the point is that they would still have access to ATs.
The argument that golds should not get AT access is ludicrous.
=============
So ATs just become "demo mode"? So what?
As it is a person can play the game 100% free. Every fight, every mission, every level, and can do so using a variety of different character types with a variety of different powers.
If that's not good enough for you then feel free to go play something else.
The argument that LTSs shouldn't have AT access flows naturally from the argument that ATs should be worthless. That's why I keep pointing it out. The LTS can just make the AT as a FF. So, there's no reason for them to have the AT itself, since it does nothing except potentially lock them out of other options in the future.
To argue that the idea of LTSs not having ATs is ludicrous is to tacitly admit that the idea of ATs being worthless is ludicrous, because the latter implies the former. That's the point I'm trying to make.
Also, you're once again falling into the trap of thinking that you have to pay for FFs. You don't. It's possible to unlock FF slots without ever playing the game. Therefore, you cannot use the money argument to justify FF supremacy.
LTSs shouldn't have ATs, because the possibility exists that someone will be motivated by that shiny button to choose fewer options.
LTS will not lose anything.
You misunderstand. I am not arguing that LTSs shouldn't have access to ATs. I am pointing out that if ATs aren't going to have any use, then there's no point in LTSs having them, since it blows a hole in your argument otherwise. This is the logical result of your argument, not mine.
Absolutely nothing in this post addresses the point I made. FFs are not a gold-specific reward. You therefore cannot use the money argument as justification for FF supremacy.
Yes, yes you make the point of how "silver has access to FF too". A silver who purchases a FF slot as an alternative to paying for a monthly gold sub simply means that they've paid to override being restricted to playing an AT and get to play FF instead. And why would they even bother to pay for a FF slot? Because they've acknowledged that FF is something superior and allows for more flexible and potentially better builds in general as compared to playing AT, something that still remains intended as the inferior choice, as intended by the developers all along as an incentive to get people to pony up cash for either gold subs or FF slots.
I can't use the "money argument" as justification for FF supremacy? Tell it to the company who has every interest to get people to pay money for gold or FF slots, and has every interest in remaining in business as long as possible.
You don't have to pay to unlock a FF slot. Again, the money argument has no place here.
Post-patch, ATs aren't going to be an option for LTSs, they will be a lack of an option.
They'll still be an option, they'll just be an option with no advantages.
Except you can do the same thing with a FF build. So, by your logic, they'll be completely redundant. Which means there's no point in them existing for LTSs. Therefore, the logical thing to do would be to remove them from LTSs, if only to make sure that LTSs don't accidentally hit that button and screw themselves over in the future. I'm just following your logic here. If it leads to absurd places, well, then that indicates that your base argument is flawed. Which it clearly is, since you're now arguing against the logical implications of your own argument.
This is definitely not true. Back before the release of ATs, there was nothing pseudo-class based about it.
Wrong before ATs the roles were / are defined as the classic tank, Avenger (ranged dps), Brawler (melee dps), Support (Heals, crowd control, buffing). So how is that not the classic holy trinity born from mmorpgs but actually predates it in table top rpgs such systems. And by the way maybe disliked but been around since 2009. So I do know the games history.
I think that you guys are hung up on terminology. Having roles doesn't mean having classes. In that, Coach is right. But the game was certainly intended to at least have the option of traditional Holy Trinity based game play.
I skipped everything from a month after launch until the FTP relaunch, so I don't know what happened in the interim, but the player base seems to have abandoned the Trinity mindset at some point prior to FTP, and adding ATs didn't do anything to change that mindset.
The argument that LTSs shouldn't have AT access flows naturally from the argument that ATs should be worthless. That's why I keep pointing it out. The LTS can just make the AT as a FF. So, there's no reason for them to have the AT itself, since it does nothing except potentially lock them out of other options in the future.
Video game players do pointless things that make themselves weaker all the time, and there is simply no reason to prevent a lifetime subscriber from doing so.
You misunderstand. I am not arguing that LTSs shouldn't have access to ATs. I am pointing out that if ATs aren't going to have any use, then there's no point in LTSs having them, since it blows a hole in your argument otherwise.
Not all uses are based on superiority. Who's claiming that ATs aren't going to have any use? Obvious uses for an AT:
Because I feel like challenging myself.
Because I want to be able to brag 'look what I can do while gimping myself!', and that means being an AT needs to show up in the 'info' window for the character.
Because I want to queue for AT PvP.
You may feel that these are bad reasons for playing an AT, but so what? As long as you make it obvious that it's dumb, there's no reason not to let players do dumb things.
I once had a discussion with you where you defended the idea of the DR fix (back when it was just an idea), where you said, and I quote "why should anyone ever be motivated to choose to have less choices?". Well, it applies here. If ATs are just going to be inferior versions of FFs, then by past Spinnytop's logic, LTSs shouldn't have ATs, because the possibility exists that someone will be motivated by that shiny button to choose fewer options.
Past Spinny would say the same thing that present Spinny would say, "Removing options is removing options no matter how you spin it. If someone wants to play an AT that's fine, but there should be nothing built into the game that motivates people to do so."
Absolutely nothing in this post addresses the point I made. FFs are not a gold-specific reward. You therefore cannot use the money argument as justification for FF supremacy.
FF slot takes over twice as long to farm as a premium AT, and there are no free FF slots. Jenny's argument still applies to people who farmed a slot - they didn't farm that slot to end up with something equal to something that's free or takes less than half as much time to farm. If you have access to FFs, wether by pay or play, you shouldn't be made to feel like using them is ever the lesser option.
You misunderstand. I am not arguing that LTSs shouldn't have access to ATs. I am pointing out that if ATs aren't going to have any use, then there's no point in LTSs having them, since it blows a hole in your argument otherwise. This is the logical result of your argument, not mine.
It doesn't blow a hole in anything, and it's not a logical result of vixy's argument. It's an illogical result of your claim that having ATs somehow constitutes "less choice" via the possibility that a LTS player might mistakenly choose to play an AT.
Let me just go ahead and blow a hole in that claim by the way: The moment that LTS player realizes their "mistake" they can immediately create a FF character and start playing that. After all, it's not as if they're locked into that choice forever... quite the contrary, LTS players have a lot of open character slots. FF also has a very prominent spot at the top of the list of archetypes, and is the default selection when you go to make a new character - this mistake you're worried people will make is rather unlikely.
Make ATs effective, but give them very limited options.
There is no reason to make ATs objectively worse than FF because....
This game really only has one thing going for it, and that is customization.
The graphics are crusty, the writing is bad, the cut-scenes are are mess, the bugs are many, and the game-play itself is out-dated and not very responsive.
But... you can make your hero look how you want and throw around the powers you want. That's all that CO has that stands out from the crowd.
So, let new players have a good first impression of the game by giving them a competitive and fun build. If you get em hooked they'll end up paying to make the hero they want... If they aren't into customizing looks and/or builds, then this game won't hold their interest anyway.
I once had a discussion with you where you defended the idea of the DR fix (back when it was just an idea), where you said, and I quote "why should anyone ever be motivated to choose to have less choices?". Well, it applies here. If ATs are just going to be inferior versions of FFs, then by past Spinnytop's logic, LTSs shouldn't have ATs, because the possibility exists that someone will be motivated by that shiny button to choose fewer options.
Past Spinny would say the same thing that present Spinny would say, "Removing options is removing options no matter how you spin it. If someone wants to play an AT that's fine, but there should be nothing built into the game that motivates people to do so."
Absolutely nothing in this post addresses the point I made. FFs are not a gold-specific reward. You therefore cannot use the money argument as justification for FF supremacy.
FF slot takes over twice as long to farm as a premium AT, and there are no free FF slots. Jenny's argument still applies to people who farmed a slot - they didn't farm that slot to end up with something equal to something that's free or takes less than half as much time to farm. If you have access to FFs, wether by pay or play, you shouldn't be made to feel like using them is ever the lesser option.
You misunderstand. I am not arguing that LTSs shouldn't have access to ATs. I am pointing out that if ATs aren't going to have any use, then there's no point in LTSs having them, since it blows a hole in your argument otherwise. This is the logical result of your argument, not mine.
It doesn't blow a hole in anything, and it's not a logical result of vixy's argument. It's an illogical result of your claim that having ATs somehow constitutes "less choice" via the possibility that a LTS player might mistakenly choose to play an AT.
Let me just go ahead and blow a hole in that claim by the way: The moment that LTS player realizes their "mistake" they can immediately create a FF character and start playing that. After all, it's not as if they're locked into that choice forever... quite the contrary, LTS players have a lot of open character slots. FF also has a very prominent spot at the top of the list of archetypes, and is the default selection when you go to make a new character - this mistake you're worried people will make is rather unlikely.
I have enough zen from arc quests that I could have easily bought a FF slot during the sale. So, yes, there are free FF slots. Heck, they had a FF slot giveaway just over a year ago.
The crux of past Spinny's argument was that choosing an AT locks you out of other options in the future, and that this was a negative thing. The fact that you can make a new character doesn't change that, because you've still lost the investment you've put into the original character. The mere existence of the "option" to lock yourself out of options itself constitutes a motivation, however slight, to lock yourself out of options.
Choosing to play an AT, if it doesn't offer anything, doesn't constitute an additional choice, because it doesn't offer anything that can't be done with a FF. Therefore, according to your logic, there's no reason for it to exist. If there's no reason to play something, then there's no reason for it to exist.
ATs cannot participate in AT PvP at the present time. If that were to change, then this whole discussion would become moot.
There has not been a single point in the game's history where playing a FF has been a lesser option. Even now, choosing to play an AT takes away far more from you than it gives you.
The argument that LTSs shouldn't have AT access flows naturally from the argument that ATs should be worthless. That's why I keep pointing it out. The LTS can just make the AT as a FF. So, there's no reason for them to have the AT itself, since it does nothing except potentially lock them out of other options in the future.
Video game players do pointless things that make themselves weaker all the time, and there is simply no reason to prevent a lifetime subscriber from doing so.
You misunderstand. I am not arguing that LTSs shouldn't have access to ATs. I am pointing out that if ATs aren't going to have any use, then there's no point in LTSs having them, since it blows a hole in your argument otherwise.
Not all uses are based on superiority. Who's claiming that ATs aren't going to have any use? Obvious uses for an AT:
Because I feel like challenging myself.
Because I want to be able to brag 'look what I can do while gimping myself!', and that means being an AT needs to show up in the 'info' window for the character.
Because I want to queue for AT PvP.
You may feel that these are bad reasons for playing an AT, but so what? As long as you make it obvious that it's dumb, there's no reason not to let players do dumb things.
ATs cannot access AT PvP at the present time.
You can create the same challenge with the FF.
I should also point out that, by your logic here, there was no need for any of the balance passes over the last year, since certain powers being over or under powered could be justified on the basis that underpowered things qualified as "challenging oneself". Once again, you are employing a double standard.
You misunderstand. I am not arguing that LTSs shouldn't have access to ATs. I am pointing out that if ATs aren't going to have any use, then there's no point in LTSs having them, since it blows a hole in your argument otherwise. This is the logical result of your argument, not mine.
My argument for what? I have no idea what you're talking about
I don't understand why anything needs to change other than the bug fix + improvement of AT builds to compensate (and then some). So people will get a 5-15% nerf to their dmg output
Exqueeze me? For things like Unleashed, I think and hope it will be a much larger nerf than that. Try making the exact same build in FF, kit it out with the same gear, then do a comparison of the AT version and FF version. I think you'll find that that AT version does a good 50% more damage than the FF, not 15%.
I think you didn't see my first post? It is actually less than 15% for most people playing ATs....and when you account for the builds being more well rounded then most ATs will end up being more effective.
When you say "things like Unleashed" I'm assuming that you're referencing min-maxers who play particular ATs with the best gear in the game with the specific goal of maximizing damage output. For those players, the comparison of "exact same build with he same gear" is not a good one because they would never play that exact same build as an FF. Their (my?) damage output will go down by anything from 20-35%......it won't be cut in half. So my DW won't crit for 30k anymore......that's completely fine.
Did the DR Bug make ATs "more balanced" in relation to FFs?
The DR bug helped min-maxers deal 20-35% more damage than their previous fully optimized FF builds. Anyone that's not min-maxing is barely hitting the DR ceiling so not having one doesn't help much. Typically geared ATs get a 5-15% damage boost relative to what they'd do as an FF with the same build.
Given that the bug fix is accompanied by build reviews it's likely that many ATs will actually do more damage afterwards because they'll be able to heal themselves, have better passives, and have superstats that actually scale their toggle forms.
Tank ATs benefit even less than the DPS ones because their direct goal is not to deal damage, but to survive while holding aggro. FF Tanks are generally much better at this and will stay that way unless Tank AT builds are also reviewed.
Support sees the least benefit. Healers, specifically, see no benefit from the AT bug because healing bonus already has no DR even for FFs....that might be another bug.
The argument that LTSs shouldn't have AT access flows naturally from the argument that ATs should be worthless. That's why I keep pointing it out. The LTS can just make the AT as a FF. So, there's no reason for them to have the AT itself, since it does nothing except potentially lock them out of other options in the future.
To argue that the idea of LTSs not having ATs is ludicrous is to tacitly admit that the idea of ATs being worthless is ludicrous, because the latter implies the former. That's the point I'm trying to make.
Also, you're once again falling into the trap of thinking that you have to pay for FFs. You don't. It's possible to unlock FF slots without ever playing the game. Therefore, you cannot use the money argument to justify FF supremacy.
While I question your notion of what "flows" from what, it doesn't matter here.
Worthless is your word, not mine.
You are arguing that a subscriber not be allowed to participate in AT-only PvP. You are arguing that a subscriber not be allowed the challenge or convenience that playing an AT may provide them. You are arguing that if a subscriber creates an AT that that somehow harms them... Like they can never earn any more roster spots or never be able to delete the AT in question.
Every one of those arguments is bad.
And so what if a player can earn a premium AT slot, or even a freeform slot, without paying a cent?
People will pay for time and the saving thereof, and meanwhile the game has cut the legs off of any "pay to win" arguments.
You don't have to pay to unlock a FF slot. Again, the money argument has no place here.
Too bad the method of farming loads and loads of Questionite to afford a FF slot via ZEN conversion is a system designed to persuade players to spend actual money instead to avoid all that farming.
The money factor is still relevant and is a reality, no matter how you personally think it's not.
The argument that LTSs shouldn't have AT access flows naturally from the argument that ATs should be worthless. That's why I keep pointing it out. The LTS can just make the AT as a FF. So, there's no reason for them to have the AT itself, since it does nothing except potentially lock them out of other options in the future.
To argue that the idea of LTSs not having ATs is ludicrous is to tacitly admit that the idea of ATs being worthless is ludicrous, because the latter implies the former. That's the point I'm trying to make.
Also, you're once again falling into the trap of thinking that you have to pay for FFs. You don't. It's possible to unlock FF slots without ever playing the game. Therefore, you cannot use the money argument to justify FF supremacy.
While I question your notion of what "flows" from what, it doesn't matter here.
Worthless is your word, not mine.
You are arguing that a subscriber not be allowed to participate in AT-only PvP. You are arguing that a subscriber not be allowed the challenge or convenience that playing an AT may provide them. You are arguing that if a subscriber creates an AT that that somehow harms them... Like they can never earn any more roster spots or never be able to delete the AT in question.
Every one of those arguments is bad.
And so what if a player can earn a premium AT slot, or even a freeform slot, without paying a cent?
People will pay for time and the saving thereof, and meanwhile the game has cut the legs off of any "pay to win" arguments.
If they delete the AT, they lose the investment they made in them. So, yes, it does harm them, at least as much as anything in the game can. They can recreate the AT's build with the FF, so there's no reason for them to have the AT itself if the AT is going to be flatly inferior. No one can access AT PvP, so that argument is moot. Now, if AT PvP were accessible, then ATs wouldn't be flatly inferior to FFs in the first place.
Keep in mind, I am not arguing that LTSs shouldn't have ATs. I am only pointing out that there's no reason for them to have access to them if ATs are going to be worthless. If you think LTSs should have access to ATs, you're tacitly admitting that ATs should have a use. But since their builds can be recreated by FFs anyway, that means they must have some feature or ability FFs don't.
You misunderstand. I am not arguing that LTSs shouldn't have access to ATs. I am pointing out that if ATs aren't going to have any use, then there's no point in LTSs having them, since it blows a hole in your argument otherwise. This is the logical result of your argument, not mine.
My argument for what? I have no idea what you're talking about
You've expressed support in the thread for the idea that FFs should be flatly superior to ATs. As I've been explaining, that means that there's no reason for LTSs to have ATs. To argue otherwise is to tacitly admit that ATs should have some use. But that, by definition, requires them to be able to do something that FFs can't.
You don't have to pay to unlock a FF slot. Again, the money argument has no place here.
Too bad the method of farming loads and loads of Questionite to afford a FF slot via ZEN conversion is a system designed to persuade players to spend actual money instead to avoid all that farming.
The money factor is still relevant and is a reality, no matter how you personally think it's not.
You're forgetting the arc quest method, which requires so little effort that it doesn't really even count as farming.
But the amount of time required is irrelevant. You can get a FF slot without money. Therefore, FF is not pay to win. Therefore, the pay to win argument does not apply.
And, by the way? Even if it did apply, it would still be a terrible argument. Either way, you don't have a leg to stand on.
I don't get the argument being made. Is anyone actually trying to say LTS should not have access to ATs?
Reaperwithnoname is arguing that LTSs should not have access to ATs because someone might mistakenly make an AT after purchasing LTS. Who purchases LTS or a Sub and doesn't know about FFs? I dunno, reaper seems to think people like that exist in large enough numbers for this to be an issue.
And, by the way? Even if it did apply, it would still be a terrible argument. Either way, you don't have a leg to stand on.
Sure maybe you can get one FF slot using the arc quests, but how many after that? Unless you can show that you can acquire an infinite supply of them, or at least as many on one account as the number of free ATs you have access to, then your argument just went up in smoke. A few free slots here and there does not erase the fact that a slot costs 50 dollars worth of zen, paid or played - it certainly does not make every FF slot everyone has free, unless you're prepared to ignore all the people who did in fact pay or farm their way to a slot.
You seem very keen on showing yourself as not understanding how this game's F2P business model works. The amount of time is relevant when a purchase option to override the grinding time exists as a gold subscription update or a purchase at the ZEN store.
It takes a matter of seconds to complete a purchase of a FF slot with money. Feel free to show a method of building up enough Questionite-to-ZEN to get a FF slot in just a few seconds to back your argument that silver and golds are one and the same just because both have access both FF and ATs.
Therefore, FF is not pay to win. Therefore, the pay to win argument does not apply.
Whoever said it was "pay to win"? You can win at game content with both ATs and FFs sure, but the latter obviously is intended by Cryptic to be the superior over the other.
I don't get the argument being made. Is anyone actually trying to say LTS should not have access to ATs?
Reaperwithnoname is arguing that LTSs should not have access to ATs because someone might mistakenly make an AT after purchasing LTS. Who purchases LTS or a Sub and doesn't know about FFs? I dunno, reaper seems to think people like that exist in large enough numbers for this to be an issue.
And, by the way? Even if it did apply, it would still be a terrible argument. Either way, you don't have a leg to stand on.
Sure maybe you can get one FF slot using the arc quests, but how many after that? Unless you can show that you can acquire an infinite supply of them, or at least as many on one account as the number of free ATs you have access to, then your argument just went up in smoke. A few free slots here and there does not erase the fact that a slot costs 50 dollars worth of zen, paid or played - it certainly does not make every FF slot everyone has free, unless you're prepared to ignore all the people who did in fact pay or farm their way to a slot.
Okay then. Thanks for clarifying. Since there is no chance in hell the devs will change the current setup we have I'll just go back to lurking on this topic lol
There seems to be a consistent meta that AT's are completly awful. That's demonstrably false. AT's are much better off with Kaiserin's changes. And with upcoming tweaks the Blade and Unleashed are receiving, my money's on those AT's still being top-of-the-line DPS performers.
The fact is.. there's a basic template to creating a decent build in CO:
ATTACKS: A single target attack and an AoE Attack. PASSIVE: Example -Quarry, Way of the Warrior, or Defiance TOGGLE: Example - Concentration or Enrage ENERGY UNLOCK: Example - Molecular Self Assembly or Thematic SELF-HEAL: Example - Conviction or Bountiful Chi Resurgence ACTIVE DEFENSE: Example - Masterful Dodge ACTIVE OFFENSE: Example - Ego Surge w/Nimble Mind Advantage BLOCK: Ex: Force Shield with the Force Sheathe Advantage Super Stats: CON must be one of the superstats.
Obviously the above is simplified but you get the basic idea. Any AT that follows a template like this, will be able to handle most anything that a Freeform can. For example, the Invincible can handle end-game quite well. While I haven't' tested, I'm certain an Invincible can tackle Telios Ascendant.
Some AT's are OK... others are excellent. The only reason FF's beat AT's is that most FF builds "follow the template". A FF that doesn't follow the template is oftentimes worse off than your average AT.
So the issue isn't that FF's is inherently better.... it's that a good a build is inherently better! That's true whether you are a FF or an AT. That's one reason some players will buy one of the better planned AT's over a FF slot... it's a cheaper just as good option.
An AT that follows most of the template for a good FF build, will perform just as well as a FF. A FF that is built terribly will be much worse off than the poorest assembled AT.
The reason some AT's can't handle harder content is the lack of CON Super Stat, Self-Healing, and Ward/Guardicator loops. However, I can see that Kaiserin has been flirting lately with tweaking AT builds to include some of these options. I am very appreciative of those improvements!
But the issue isn't that FF's are inherently better than AT's. It's that FF's that follow the prescribed template do well. Which might point out issues with things like CON stacking and the Vindicator loops -- more than anything else. If an AT was built with all of those stats -- it would probably sell like hotcakes as a cheap alternative to FF.
ATs dont have to be weaker than FFs to be inferior... FF by its very nature is a superior choice simply by the aspect of Freedom of Choice. An AT is restricted on what it can do and what powers it can use, and restricts your concepts. Wheras a FF gives you the freedom to make the choices you wanted. Whether those choices give you more power, less power, or simply a theme you can't get as an AT, doesn't matter. What matters is that those choices exist for FF but don't for AT, and the existance of those choices inherntly makes FF superior.
Even if AT and FF were exactly the same when it comes to power level, FF would still be percieved as th superior option and desirable enough for people to buy into it even with no actual power gain. It's a concept refered to as a "sidegrade"... Unlike upgrades, sidegrades don't offer an increase in power, but rather a simple change in performance or function. Example: you have 3 power choices, a Maintain, a Charge, and a Click... the DPS of all three powers is identical the only difference is the functionality of the power. Different people will prefer different powers simply because of the feel despite them being identical in DPS. If Maintain and Charge were locked behind a cash purchase, people would still buy them simply because they feel better to them than Click despite being the same.
reaperwithnoname The existance of free methods to obtain Zen does NOT negate the fact that anything bought with Zen or granted as a subscriptin benefit is a Purchased Feature. Free feature intails that the feature itself is provided at no charge or unlocked through an in-game process that does not involve the cash shop.
You've expressed support in the thread for the idea that FFs should be flatly superior to ATs.
What? Where?
If you're going to start a sentence with "you've expressed...." then use the quote feature please
I don't know about Kamo, but I have certainly expressed support for that idea. But TO BE CLEAR, I think a well-built FF should be superior to a free AT. Not EVERY FF should be superior to ATs, but a well-built one certainly should be. And a paid AT should be superior to a free AT.
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Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
Not sure why you took that so personally. What he's pointing out is observable with freeforms as well. For example, many people thought they were hot stuff for a long time because they utilized a meta that consisted of a particular combination of powers and stats, but once that meta was broken by changes it took a while for them to adapt - in some cases they didn't adapt and their reaction was instead a series of glorious forum meltdowns. This latter group especially had basically been trained by the meta of the game to rely on this combination of powers and had grown to depend on them - when it suddenly stopped being as effective they started eating pavement. This was another case of a FOO strategy being removed.
I know I and a few other people can certainly remember some examples of some people letting the impressive dps of pre-DR ATs getting to their head, and maybe having a bit of a fit at the mere mention of that being fixed.
The DR fix is for a broken AT mechanic that should have been fixed ages ago. If it were an actual nerf to the actual structure of ATs like making powers and stats intentionally weaker than what they are for FFs, then yes it can be argued to be a bad change.
In this case it isn't. It's a fix, not a nerf. If there's something I criticize Cryptic for with regards to the fix, it's that they've took their sweet-**** time so much so that apparently silver players have accepted the DR bug as a norm.
It was the norm, in the same way that FFs being able to solo content that was clearly not meant to be soloed can do so. Neither was ever intended, but both were the norm. I'd get into examples, but there's no reason to any more.
I am a bit saddened, because FFs becoming gamebreakers again is bad for the game. But, I'm not currently playing any, and I got some new toys, so it's good for me.
That's a very interesting concept, but I don't think it applies to CO, for two reasons.
The first one is that pre-patch, both ATs and FFs were abusing the unique advantages that their classes offered. Overpowered FF survivability meant that they didn't need to focus on building for damage (which we could see the effects of back when the cosmics were updated and people were failing easy dps checks), while the limitations of ATs meant that they had little choice but to build solely for damage, since it was the only competitive strategy they had (which is why people always gave me weird looks for having massive con on my unleashed).
The other reason FOO doesn't seem to apply is that FFs could copy AT builds and then slap on extras. They would still do less damage, but damage almost never mattered anyway, so they would gain at least as much as they lost. And that's without taking into consideration that they could improve the builds. But building isn't really a skill anyway when you can simply ask for builds in zone chat.
I know I and a few other people can certainly remember some examples of some people letting the impressive dps of pre-DR ATs getting to their head, and maybe having a bit of a fit at the mere mention of that being fixed.
Heh, I did. But not because I was hot stuff (there's a reason Blue Thrust has a groundwatching hobby XD). I just hate seeing a game go through so much effort to become balanced, then turn around and throw it away.
I didn't take it personally took it as pseudo attack on inexperienced or new players or even those with lower learning curve game wise. Current stage of game's life is kinda stupid disenfranchise any subset of players. His? Her? presentation is what took offense to slightly which to me had nothing to do with neither AT or FF but players themselves. And the DR fix is bad for game imho for one what does ATs have going for them now? See if also gave them two more power selections at odd levels then removed DR bug? then it would be excellent balancing change but alas.
This is a MYTH that needs shattering -- hard. Some AT's do quite well, especially after Kaiserin's fixes. I'm convinced the Invincible can still handle cosmics. Especially, if geared up well. The Soldier isn't bad at all in end game -- I'm not done gearing mine up yet -- but I'm going all Legions with high ranked mods as soon as I can. The Specialist might be a secret winner with CON + Guardicator Loop... (I'm surprised no one noticed that change). And that's just a few changes -- there were many more over the past year.
AT's have been vastly improved.. it's not like the dev's nerfed DR without giving anything back in return. In fact, DR nerf didn't happen until AFTER almost every AT received an update.
Should there be a reason to play an AT over a FF -- in some circumstances sure. One being a cost savings, the other not being tied int a monthly sub. I own my AT's as long as the servers stay running, I can play them to my heart's content. The only way to do with a FF build is to buy a $50 slot and start from scratch. Otherwise the moment you sub ends, you lose access to your FF build. Not so with an AT you purchased.
That's actually not true. Arc Quests make it possible to earn a FF slot without anyone spending a penny or even playing the game. That was the whole point I was arguing. Since FF isn't truly a pay-to-win class, there's no rational argument for it to be blatantly superior to everything else in every way, and making it such can only turn it into a game breaker.
Sadly, Cryptic doesn't care about any of that. C'est la vie.
That's actually not true. Arc Quests make it possible to earn a FF slot without anyone spending a penny or even playing the game. That was the whole point I was arguing. Since FF isn't truly a pay-to-win class, there's no rational argument for it to be blatantly superior to everything else in every way, and making it such can only turn it into a game breaker.
Unless you can show that you can get free numerous FF slots via Arc Quests at a rate so impressive that it outright trivializes the ZEN price tag of a FF slot into redundancy, then it's your argument that isn't rational.
Too True
His constant Accusations about FreeForm characters ruining the game have really made me run out of patience
if this constant nagging is because of Peavaypeeeee, then you have complety lost my respect
and the only things FreeForm can solo now are Casual Alerts and Pre-Alert Lairs and missions which were not updated and pretty much are left as Legacy nowdays
So after the update, my Blade AT character deals exactly the same damage as some of my FF swordman characters (with the same gear) and now he has better survability
That's pretty much satisfying I have to say
Post edited by avianos on
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
His constant Accusations about FreeForm characters ruining the game have really made me run out of patience
if this constant nagging is because of Peavaypeeeee, then you have complety lost my respect
and the only things FreeForm can solo now are Casual Alerts and Pre-Alert Lairs and missions which were not updated and pretty much are left as Legacy nowdays
So after the update, my Blade AT character deals exactly the same damage as some of my FF swordman characters (with the same gear) and now he has better survability
That's pretty much satisfying I have to say
The changes improved ATs generally and fixed a bug. Full stop. Don't bother trying to convince anyone who doesn't believe it.
I started this game about 10 months ago... I played the free ATs just long enough to decide, yes, i like this game enough to subscribe.
I wanted to subscribe, because i wanted to build my own character. And by that, i mean, i am a min/max player, and i liked the toolset this gsme had. I liked it enough that i was willing to pay for it.
About 6 months in, I learned enough about the game that i had a nearly maxed DPS character and i was running out of things i could improve. I ran cosmics every night and I kept getting crushed in the score by other hardcore players and I couldn't figure out what it was that they were doing. Then one day learned about ATs not having DR. I made an unleashed AT, and played him to 40. Then, with no gear other than my leveling up gear, i ran a Dino fight and finished with the top score. I honestly came close to logging off and deleting the game. It made me sick to think that all the testing and tweaking i had done on my freeform for months was pointless because the secret I was looking for, the secret to top end DPS, was to mindlessly choose prebuilt character and basically spam 1 power.
If it hadn't been for some chat dialogue that told me the AT no-DR issue was an unintended bug and the fix was in the works, i would no longer be a paying subscriber here.
Bottom line, for me and my play style, a game with that bug, this is not a game I want to play.
With that fix, however, i think I have found a new gaming home that i haven't really had in 4-5 years.
Let's get back to the very beginning question, "Should there be a reason to play an AT over an FF?"
There is already a very good reason to play an AT over an FF, they are free or cheaper. That is the ONLY reason there should be to play an AT. If you don't like any of the ATs available, if they aren't powerful enough, buy an FF slot or subscribe.
I have VERY little patience for people who want everything for nothing. Actually zero patience. I work in the arts, struggling to help artists make a living and you know what I get every day? People asking me if they can hook them up with an artist who will do work for free. Needless to say, they never ask me that question again.
Would any of YOU out there do YOUR job for free? If so, great, I have some plumbing that needs fixing. If not, then SHUT THE F UP about the free stuff you get.
Free stuff should ALWAYS be of inferior quality to paid stuff. Period. Cheap stuff should always be of inferior quality to expensive stuff. That is how the world works. That is how everything else in the entire world works, "you get what you pay for." As Laz says TANSTAAFL. Get over it. Stop begging for MOAR FREE, you sound like a jerk who doesn't care if the devs can pay their bills or not.
/rant
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Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
If they delete the AT, they lose the investment they made in them. So, yes, it does harm them, at least as much as anything in the game can. They can recreate the AT's build with the FF, so there's no reason for them to have the AT itself if the AT is going to be flatly inferior. No one can access AT PvP, so that argument is moot. Now, if AT PvP were accessible, then ATs wouldn't be flatly inferior to FFs in the first place.
Keep in mind, I am not arguing that LTSs shouldn't have ATs. I am only pointing out that there's no reason for them to have access to them if ATs are going to be worthless. If you think LTSs should have access to ATs, you're tacitly admitting that ATs should have a use. But since their builds can be recreated by FFs anyway, that means they must have some feature or ability FFs don't.
Again with the worthless.
If a gold wants to make an AT there are zero good reasons why they shouldn't be allowed to.
You don't get to decide whether something was a waste of time for someone or not. You don't get to decide that a subscriber looking for a little extra challenge shouldn't be able to use an AT. You don't get to decide that someone that wants to join an AT-only SG shouldn't be allowed to because they are a sub. You don't get to decide that a subscriber should have to look at an AT as a guide for making their own character rather than just using an AT in the first place.
You don't get to decide whether ATs are "worthless" for anyone but yourself. It wouldn't matter if ATs only ever got the two powers they started with, you still don't get to decide if someone else would think that they were worthless.
There are reasons for subscribers to play them, even if the reason is "because I wanted to". And with that, I am done with you.
I may respond to something someone else says, but you have gotten far more attention in this thread than your terrible arguments merit.
I would be very interested to know where this idea that ATs are objectively worthless comes from. Having seen them tank, dps, and heal endgame content, and having seen them solo the QWZ, I would have to wonder what is left for them to do to prove their worth?
I would be very interested to know where this idea that ATs are objectively worthless comes from. Having seen them tank, dps, and heal endgame content, and having seen them solo the QWZ, I would have to wonder what is left for them to do to prove their worth?
I know I don't speak for anyone but myself, but personally I think the notion tends to come from a bit of a skewed perspective created by a disproportionately large number of AT players that are terrible at playing their chosen AT or don't play their AT to the Role they are assigned to... I know for a fact that the massive amount of Glaciers who think they are Icicles for the longest time instilled the notion to myself that the Glacier is a terrible tank AT... I don't believe that anymore as I've seen what the Glacier is actually capable of, but for the longest time I was under the impression that the Glacier simply couldn't tank despite being a tank role AT, all because every single Glacier I had encountered believed themselves to be a DPS (and a rather bad one at that even)
That's actually not true. Arc Quests make it possible to earn a FF slot without anyone spending a penny or even playing the game. That was the whole point I was arguing. Since FF isn't truly a pay-to-win class, there's no rational argument for it to be blatantly superior to everything else in every way, and making it such can only turn it into a game breaker.
Unless you can show that you can get free numerous FF slots via Arc Quests at a rate so impressive that it outright trivializes the ZEN price tag of a FF slot into redundancy, then it's your argument that isn't rational.
Multiple arc accounts might make it possible when combined with the q exchange. But it doesn't matter, because game balance doesn't care about that anyway.
I may respond to something someone else says, but you have gotten far more attention in this thread than your terrible arguments merit.
If my arguments are so terrible, why has no one yet come up with an honest reason for why one class that isn't pay-to-win should be blatantly superior to every other non-pay-to-win class, hm?
Multiple arc accounts might make it possible when combined with the q exchange. But it doesn't matter, because game balance doesn't care about that anyway.
Resorting to making multiple accounts isn't justification of anything; it's just exploitation of the fact that multiple free email services exist to provide limitless email accounts for Arc account registration.
Someone who pays for a FF slot or gold doesn't need to resort to such tactics and can remain on a single account while doing so. They don't need to bother with jumping through hoops, making multiple accounts and come off as desperate. FF slots and gold subscription with price tags are superior on a more valued level compared to silver ATs.
It's charming that you like to dismiss everyone who points out flaws and obvious ignorance in your arguments, especially when the F2P matrix aka reality of the situation exists to show those flaws.
If my arguments are so terrible, why has no one yet come up with an honest reason for why one class that isn't pay-to-win should be blatantly superior to every other non-pay-to-win class, hm?
Because of how the F2P business model works and how Cryptic intends for people to step away from silver ATs and pay for FF access instead.
There you go. Honest reason given. It's really that simple and easy a concept to understand.
There already is a reason to play an AT. Some ppl like to challenge themselves. FF can be godly and that's not always fun, because it makes the majority of content, way too easy. (2x AD, CON / spec synergies, etc.)
At least that's the reason why i'm playing an AT, since 2011.
Multiple arc accounts might make it possible when combined with the q exchange. But it doesn't matter, because game balance doesn't care about that anyway.
Resorting to making multiple accounts isn't justification of anything; it's just exploitation of the fact that multiple free email services exist to provide limitless email accounts for Arc account registration.
Someone who pays for a FF slot or gold doesn't need to resort to such tactics and can remain on a single account while doing so. They don't need to bother with jumping through hoops, making multiple accounts and come off as desperate. FF slots and gold subscription with price tags are superior on a more valued level compared to silver ATs.
It's charming that you like to dismiss everyone who points out flaws and obvious ignorance in your arguments
The irony here is staggering.
But, if you insist on continuing this, sure, because once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. Yes, Cryptic makes money from people who don't want to jump through the hoops. Which is why they're fine with allowing for free FFs. Which just leads back to the balance point that you conveniently ignored.
If my arguments are so terrible, why has no one yet come up with an honest reason for why one class that isn't pay-to-win should be blatantly superior to every other non-pay-to-win class, hm?
Because of how the F2P business model works and how Cryptic intends for people to step away from silver ATs and pay for FF access instead.
There you go. Honest reason given. It's really that simple and easy a concept to understand.
I've already explained previously that the developer intent argument is not an honest one.
But, if you insist on continuing this, sure, because once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. Yes, Cryptic makes money from people who don't want to jump through the hoops. Which is why they're fine with allowing for free FFs. Which just leads back to the balance point that you conveniently ignored.
Free FF slots are in (intentional) restricted limited supply and are obviously meant as goodwill rewards. That's all there is to them. If your argument is that methods of getting FF slots for free is the end result of people actually paying for FF slots or gold, then you probably didn't realize beforehand that it would only make paid-for FF a whole lot more valuable and the main focus of Cryptic's business model, if it were actually true anyway and not just your own personal assumption (which I'm pretty sure is the case)
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner.
I've already explained previously that the developer intent argument is not an honest one.
Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think its honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
Back at the time the game was preparing to go F2P a point made by the devs was that some significant amount of feedback they had from players who had quit the game after giving it a shot, who had bought the game but chose not to subscribe, was that the character build system was too complex. They found it confusing. The AT system was, in part, meant to allow players accustomed to picking a class and then making a very small number of choices within that class' strictly defined progression, and get right into playing...without having to worry that their new character was ruined from the get go by choices they had made.
There is a reason to play an AT instead of a FF character, one that existed from the earliest stages of the development of the concept of ATs in CO, ease of access. Even a Gold player might decide that he doesnt want to take the time or spend the thought on creating a character build. Even a FF character modeled after and AT takes more effort than just picking an AT and running with it.
But, if you insist on continuing this, sure, because once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. Yes, Cryptic makes money from people who don't want to jump through the hoops. Which is why they're fine with allowing for free FFs. Which just leads back to the balance point that you conveniently ignored.
Free FF slots are in (intentional) restricted limited supply and are obviously meant as goodwill rewards. That's all there is to them. If your argument is that methods of getting FF slots for free is the end result of people actually paying for FF slots or gold, then you probably didn't realize beforehand that it would only make paid-for FF a whole lot more valuable and the main focus of Cryptic's business model, if it were actually true anyway and not just your own personal assumption (which I'm pretty sure is the case)
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner.
I've already explained previously that the developer intent argument is not an honest one.
Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think is honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
But, if you insist on continuing this, sure, because once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. Yes, Cryptic makes money from people who don't want to jump through the hoops. Which is why they're fine with allowing for free FFs. Which just leads back to the balance point that you conveniently ignored.
Free FF slots are in (intentional) restricted limited supply and are obviously meant as goodwill rewards. That's all there is to them. If your argument is that methods of getting FF slots for free is the end result of people actually paying for FF slots or gold, then you probably didn't realize beforehand that it would only make paid-for FF a whole lot more valuable and the main focus of Cryptic's business model, if it were actually true anyway and not just your own personal assumption (which I'm pretty sure is the case)
Balance point? You mean this mystical balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it wouldn't make sense marketing-wise on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner.
If it makes you feel any better, I wouldn't really care if they actually decided to focus on balancing ATs with FFs in the near future. I just don't see it as something realistic in a business sense.
I've already explained previously that the developer intent argument is not an honest one.
Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think is honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's BS reasoning, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
Let's dismantle that. The best AT's for end game are Premium (aprox $15) or the purchase of a $50 FF slot. Many Silvers have purchased an AT or FF Slot.
Cosmic Keys: The buying and selling of cosmic keys is a THRIVING part of CO's limited economy. I'll bet money that Silver Players buy more Cosmic Keys then subscribers do. Whenever I want something from the AH -- I buy cosmic keys and re-sell them.
C-store purchases: Become devices, inventory slots, expanded bank limits, sidekicks, vehicles --- all services that benefit a Silver player much more than they do a Subscriber. I'm sure that's not by accident.
The subscription model is dead and has been dead in MMO's for a long time. The money is in micro-transactions. If anything Cryptic should consider going to a model like STO. You don't need to subscribe to enjoy STO -- but the best ships must be purchased. You can subscribe if you want to -- but if you don't you're not missing much. And even if you do subscribe the best ships still must be purchased (though you can more easily earn good free ships as a subscriber)
Note: Last year I spent $60 on ZEN. I am probably not unique in this. If anything I bet I'm on the low end of Zen purchases for a silver player. Another silly player myth busted.
I would be very interested to know where this idea that ATs are objectively worthless comes from. Having seen them tank, dps, and heal endgame content, and having seen them solo the QWZ, I would have to wonder what is left for them to do to prove their worth?
Because it's one of many myths that bitter long-time players have repeated so often that it's now taken as gospel. All one has to do is pick one of the AT's that has a build similar to a decent FF. Look for Ward/Guardicator, an energy unlock, decent attacks, CON, and self-healing. If you look at the most recently released DPS AT's you'll notice a pattern... it's not by accident.
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Granted, in that case they would not have all of the costume unlocks and such that the gold account might have, but the point is that they would still have access to ATs.
The argument that golds should not get AT access is ludicrous.
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So ATs just become "demo mode"? So what?
As it is a person can play the game 100% free. Every fight, every mission, every level, and can do so using a variety of different character types with a variety of different powers.
If that's not good enough for you then feel free to go play something else.
I usually use my monthly stipends from my time card stints for costume sets or sometimes an AT. I've got the following ATs at 40, mostly geared in Heroic gear or Mercenary gear for those that leveled after the cost bump, with either purple or Armadillo secondaries (so, pretty average gear): Inventor (bought soon after FTP launched for real money), Marksman, Tempest (bought w/stipend), Devastator (unlocked through promo), Unleashed, Glacier, Inferno, Grimoire, Behemoth, Scourge (bought w/stipend), Automaton, Soldier and a Blade at 36.
So, as a casual player, I've made pretty good use of the AT system. I don't think my gear level is high enough to gain much benefit from the lack of DR on my characters. All have been playable, though some are a bit squishy in group content and die fast if they pull aggro.
Which brings up the biggest problem with ATs: Survivability. This stems from the ATs being designed around a Holy Trinity model, where the rest of the game isn't, and in a player environment where Trinity mechanics/tactics are largely ignored by groups. This includes other AT players. There's no guarantee that the guy with the tank or support symbol over their head can hold aggro or toss out any support or has any desire to do so. Survivability powers are often late in progression as well, so low level ATs tend to face plant a lot.
It looks like the current round of AT revamps is making a good attempt to fix both the issue of lack of survival tools for ATs and power progression, and that the devs have been responsive to player input in redesigning the ATs. I see these changes as mostly for the good. Therefore, I don't really care about the DR bug fix. I'd rather have more fun by having more up time and less time staring at the floor. That floor-staring time is one of the bigger turn offs for new players, I think.
Does the DR fix disincentivize Gold or LTS players from using the ATs? Sure. Should it matter? No. Should there be a further incentive for Gold/LTS players to use ATs? No.
What do Golds/LTS have left as a reason to play ATs after the DR nerf? Well, they can still use the ATs as examples of basic, workable character builds. They can either play the AT or copy it to get a feel for a power set, and then retcon to optimize it (in the case of a FF copy of an AT build). I think that the revamped builds will serve as better examples in that regard.
But really, the ATs . . . brace yourselves . . . ARE NOT MEANT FOR GOLD OR LTS PLAYERS. So get over it. They're introductory, slightly sub-optimal builds meant to introduce players to the game. The only thing they need to be is functional enough to keep the Silver-only players logged in so there are more players to play with. And they always have been if the group is following a Holy Trinity setup and tactics. That, however, sucks for pick up group play, but it looks like it's being corrected with the updates.
To argue that the idea of LTSs not having ATs is ludicrous is to tacitly admit that the idea of ATs being worthless is ludicrous, because the latter implies the former. That's the point I'm trying to make.
Also, you're once again falling into the trap of thinking that you have to pay for FFs. You don't. It's possible to unlock FF slots without ever playing the game. Therefore, you cannot use the money argument to justify FF supremacy. You misunderstand. I am not arguing that LTSs shouldn't have access to ATs. I am pointing out that if ATs aren't going to have any use, then there's no point in LTSs having them, since it blows a hole in your argument otherwise. This is the logical result of your argument, not mine. You don't have to pay to unlock a FF slot. Again, the money argument has no place here. Except you can do the same thing with a FF build. So, by your logic, they'll be completely redundant. Which means there's no point in them existing for LTSs. Therefore, the logical thing to do would be to remove them from LTSs, if only to make sure that LTSs don't accidentally hit that button and screw themselves over in the future. I'm just following your logic here. If it leads to absurd places, well, then that indicates that your base argument is flawed. Which it clearly is, since you're now arguing against the logical implications of your own argument.
I think that you guys are hung up on terminology. Having roles doesn't mean having classes. In that, Coach is right. But the game was certainly intended to at least have the option of traditional Holy Trinity based game play.
I skipped everything from a month after launch until the FTP relaunch, so I don't know what happened in the interim, but the player base seems to have abandoned the Trinity mindset at some point prior to FTP, and adding ATs didn't do anything to change that mindset.
- Because I feel like challenging myself.
- Because I want to be able to brag 'look what I can do while gimping myself!', and that means being an AT needs to show up in the 'info' window for the character.
- Because I want to queue for AT PvP.
You may feel that these are bad reasons for playing an AT, but so what? As long as you make it obvious that it's dumb, there's no reason not to let players do dumb things.Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
2) They're cheaper than a FF slot or a sub
3) They can que for AT PvP
Oh look, three points. It doesn't blow a hole in anything, and it's not a logical result of vixy's argument. It's an illogical result of your claim that having ATs somehow constitutes "less choice" via the possibility that a LTS player might mistakenly choose to play an AT.
Let me just go ahead and blow a hole in that claim by the way: The moment that LTS player realizes their "mistake" they can immediately create a FF character and start playing that. After all, it's not as if they're locked into that choice forever... quite the contrary, LTS players have a lot of open character slots. FF also has a very prominent spot at the top of the list of archetypes, and is the default selection when you go to make a new character - this mistake you're worried people will make is rather unlikely.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Make ATs effective, but give them very limited options.
There is no reason to make ATs objectively worse than FF because....
This game really only has one thing going for it, and that is customization.
The graphics are crusty, the writing is bad, the cut-scenes are are mess, the bugs are many, and the game-play itself is out-dated and not very responsive.
But... you can make your hero look how you want and throw around the powers you want. That's all that CO has that stands out from the crowd.
So, let new players have a good first impression of the game by giving them a competitive and fun build. If you get em hooked they'll end up paying to make the hero they want... If they aren't into customizing looks and/or builds, then this game won't hold their interest anyway.
The crux of past Spinny's argument was that choosing an AT locks you out of other options in the future, and that this was a negative thing. The fact that you can make a new character doesn't change that, because you've still lost the investment you've put into the original character. The mere existence of the "option" to lock yourself out of options itself constitutes a motivation, however slight, to lock yourself out of options.
Choosing to play an AT, if it doesn't offer anything, doesn't constitute an additional choice, because it doesn't offer anything that can't be done with a FF. Therefore, according to your logic, there's no reason for it to exist. If there's no reason to play something, then there's no reason for it to exist.
ATs cannot participate in AT PvP at the present time. If that were to change, then this whole discussion would become moot.
There has not been a single point in the game's history where playing a FF has been a lesser option. Even now, choosing to play an AT takes away far more from you than it gives you. ATs cannot access AT PvP at the present time.
You can create the same challenge with the FF.
I should also point out that, by your logic here, there was no need for any of the balance passes over the last year, since certain powers being over or under powered could be justified on the basis that underpowered things qualified as "challenging oneself". Once again, you are employing a double standard.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
When you say "things like Unleashed" I'm assuming that you're referencing min-maxers who play particular ATs with the best gear in the game with the specific goal of maximizing damage output. For those players, the comparison of "exact same build with he same gear" is not a good one because they would never play that exact same build as an FF. Their (my?) damage output will go down by anything from 20-35%......it won't be cut in half. So my DW won't crit for 30k anymore......that's completely fine.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Worthless is your word, not mine.
You are arguing that a subscriber not be allowed to participate in AT-only PvP.
You are arguing that a subscriber not be allowed the challenge or convenience that playing an AT may provide them.
You are arguing that if a subscriber creates an AT that that somehow harms them... Like they can never earn any more roster spots or never be able to delete the AT in question.
Every one of those arguments is bad.
And so what if a player can earn a premium AT slot, or even a freeform slot, without paying a cent?
People will pay for time and the saving thereof, and meanwhile the game has cut the legs off of any "pay to win" arguments.
The money factor is still relevant and is a reality, no matter how you personally think it's not.
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My characters
They can recreate the AT's build with the FF, so there's no reason for them to have the AT itself if the AT is going to be flatly inferior.
No one can access AT PvP, so that argument is moot. Now, if AT PvP were accessible, then ATs wouldn't be flatly inferior to FFs in the first place.
Keep in mind, I am not arguing that LTSs shouldn't have ATs. I am only pointing out that there's no reason for them to have access to them if ATs are going to be worthless. If you think LTSs should have access to ATs, you're tacitly admitting that ATs should have a use. But since their builds can be recreated by FFs anyway, that means they must have some feature or ability FFs don't. You've expressed support in the thread for the idea that FFs should be flatly superior to ATs. As I've been explaining, that means that there's no reason for LTSs to have ATs. To argue otherwise is to tacitly admit that ATs should have some use. But that, by definition, requires them to be able to do something that FFs can't. You're forgetting the arc quest method, which requires so little effort that it doesn't really even count as farming.
But the amount of time required is irrelevant. You can get a FF slot without money. Therefore, FF is not pay to win. Therefore, the pay to win argument does not apply.
And, by the way? Even if it did apply, it would still be a terrible argument. Either way, you don't have a leg to stand on.
Sure maybe you can get one FF slot using the arc quests, but how many after that? Unless you can show that you can acquire an infinite supply of them, or at least as many on one account as the number of free ATs you have access to, then your argument just went up in smoke. A few free slots here and there does not erase the fact that a slot costs 50 dollars worth of zen, paid or played - it certainly does not make every FF slot everyone has free, unless you're prepared to ignore all the people who did in fact pay or farm their way to a slot.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
It takes a matter of seconds to complete a purchase of a FF slot with money. Feel free to show a method of building up enough Questionite-to-ZEN to get a FF slot in just a few seconds to back your argument that silver and golds are one and the same just because both have access both FF and ATs. Whoever said it was "pay to win"? You can win at game content with both ATs and FFs sure, but the latter obviously is intended by Cryptic to be the superior over the other. Whatever you say bud.
The fact is.. there's a basic template to creating a decent build in CO: Obviously the above is simplified but you get the basic idea. Any AT that follows a template like this, will be able to handle most anything that a Freeform can. For example, the Invincible can handle end-game quite well. While I haven't' tested, I'm certain an Invincible can tackle Telios Ascendant.
Some AT's are OK... others are excellent. The only reason FF's beat AT's is that most FF builds "follow the template". A FF that doesn't follow the template is oftentimes worse off than your average AT.
So the issue isn't that FF's is inherently better.... it's that a good a build is inherently better! That's true whether you are a FF or an AT. That's one reason some players will buy one of the better planned AT's over a FF slot... it's a cheaper just as good option.
I asked him about Freeform, but he said he really had no idea where to start with a build, and figured he would learn the game using an AT or two.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
The reason some AT's can't handle harder content is the lack of CON Super Stat, Self-Healing, and Ward/Guardicator loops. However, I can see that Kaiserin has been flirting lately with tweaking AT builds to include some of these options. I am very appreciative of those improvements!
But the issue isn't that FF's are inherently better than AT's. It's that FF's that follow the prescribed template do well. Which might point out issues with things like CON stacking and the Vindicator loops -- more than anything else. If an AT was built with all of those stats -- it would probably sell like hotcakes as a cheap alternative to FF.
If you're going to start a sentence with "you've expressed...." then use the quote feature please
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Even if AT and FF were exactly the same when it comes to power level, FF would still be percieved as th superior option and desirable enough for people to buy into it even with no actual power gain. It's a concept refered to as a "sidegrade"... Unlike upgrades, sidegrades don't offer an increase in power, but rather a simple change in performance or function. Example: you have 3 power choices, a Maintain, a Charge, and a Click... the DPS of all three powers is identical the only difference is the functionality of the power. Different people will prefer different powers simply because of the feel despite them being identical in DPS. If Maintain and Charge were locked behind a cash purchase, people would still buy them simply because they feel better to them than Click despite being the same.
reaperwithnoname The existance of free methods to obtain Zen does NOT negate the fact that anything bought with Zen or granted as a subscriptin benefit is a Purchased Feature. Free feature intails that the feature itself is provided at no charge or unlocked through an in-game process that does not involve the cash shop.
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I know I and a few other people can certainly remember some examples of some people letting the impressive dps of pre-DR ATs getting to their head, and maybe having a bit of a fit at the mere mention of that being fixed.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
In this case it isn't. It's a fix, not a nerf. If there's something I criticize Cryptic for with regards to the fix, it's that they've took their sweet-**** time so much so that apparently silver players have accepted the DR bug as a norm.
I am a bit saddened, because FFs becoming gamebreakers again is bad for the game. But, I'm not currently playing any, and I got some new toys, so it's good for me.
The first one is that pre-patch, both ATs and FFs were abusing the unique advantages that their classes offered. Overpowered FF survivability meant that they didn't need to focus on building for damage (which we could see the effects of back when the cosmics were updated and people were failing easy dps checks), while the limitations of ATs meant that they had little choice but to build solely for damage, since it was the only competitive strategy they had (which is why people always gave me weird looks for having massive con on my unleashed).
The other reason FOO doesn't seem to apply is that FFs could copy AT builds and then slap on extras. They would still do less damage, but damage almost never mattered anyway, so they would gain at least as much as they lost. And that's without taking into consideration that they could improve the builds. But building isn't really a skill anyway when you can simply ask for builds in zone chat.
Still interesting, though. Heh, I did. But not because I was hot stuff (there's a reason Blue Thrust has a groundwatching hobby XD). I just hate seeing a game go through so much effort to become balanced, then turn around and throw it away.
AT's have been vastly improved.. it's not like the dev's nerfed DR without giving anything back in return. In fact, DR nerf didn't happen until AFTER almost every AT received an update.
Should there be a reason to play an AT over a FF -- in some circumstances sure. One being a cost savings, the other not being tied int a monthly sub. I own my AT's as long as the servers stay running, I can play them to my heart's content. The only way to do with a FF build is to buy a $50 slot and start from scratch. Otherwise the moment you sub ends, you lose access to your FF build. Not so with an AT you purchased.
Sadly, Cryptic doesn't care about any of that. C'est la vie.
His constant Accusations about FreeForm characters ruining the game have really made me run out of patience
if this constant nagging is because of Peavaypeeeee, then you have complety lost my respect
and the only things FreeForm can solo now are Casual Alerts and Pre-Alert Lairs and missions which were not updated and pretty much are left as Legacy nowdays
So after the update, my Blade AT character deals exactly the same damage as some of my FF swordman characters (with the same gear) and now he has better survability
That's pretty much satisfying I have to say
I wanted to subscribe, because i wanted to build my own character. And by that, i mean, i am a min/max player, and i liked the toolset this gsme had. I liked it enough that i was willing to pay for it.
About 6 months in, I learned enough about the game that i had a nearly maxed DPS character and i was running out of things i could improve. I ran cosmics every night and I kept getting crushed in the score by other hardcore players and I couldn't figure out what it was that they were doing. Then one day learned about ATs not having DR. I made an unleashed AT, and played him to 40. Then, with no gear other than my leveling up gear, i ran a Dino fight and finished with the top score. I honestly came close to logging off and deleting the game. It made me sick to think that all the testing and tweaking i had done on my freeform for months was pointless because the secret I was looking for, the secret to top end DPS, was to mindlessly choose prebuilt character and basically spam 1 power.
If it hadn't been for some chat dialogue that told me the AT no-DR issue was an unintended bug and the fix was in the works, i would no longer be a paying subscriber here.
Bottom line, for me and my play style, a game with that bug, this is not a game I want to play.
With that fix, however, i think I have found a new gaming home that i haven't really had in 4-5 years.
There is already a very good reason to play an AT over an FF, they are free or cheaper. That is the ONLY reason there should be to play an AT. If you don't like any of the ATs available, if they aren't powerful enough, buy an FF slot or subscribe.
I have VERY little patience for people who want everything for nothing. Actually zero patience. I work in the arts, struggling to help artists make a living and you know what I get every day? People asking me if they can hook them up with an artist who will do work for free. Needless to say, they never ask me that question again.
Would any of YOU out there do YOUR job for free? If so, great, I have some plumbing that needs fixing. If not, then SHUT THE F UP about the free stuff you get.
Free stuff should ALWAYS be of inferior quality to paid stuff. Period. Cheap stuff should always be of inferior quality to expensive stuff. That is how the world works. That is how everything else in the entire world works, "you get what you pay for." As Laz says TANSTAAFL. Get over it. Stop begging for MOAR FREE, you sound like a jerk who doesn't care if the devs can pay their bills or not.
/rant
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If a gold wants to make an AT there are zero good reasons why they shouldn't be allowed to.
You don't get to decide whether something was a waste of time for someone or not.
You don't get to decide that a subscriber looking for a little extra challenge shouldn't be able to use an AT.
You don't get to decide that someone that wants to join an AT-only SG shouldn't be allowed to because they are a sub.
You don't get to decide that a subscriber should have to look at an AT as a guide for making their own character rather than just using an AT in the first place.
You don't get to decide whether ATs are "worthless" for anyone but yourself.
It wouldn't matter if ATs only ever got the two powers they started with, you still don't get to decide if someone else would think that they were worthless.
There are reasons for subscribers to play them, even if the reason is "because I wanted to".
And with that, I am done with you.
I may respond to something someone else says, but you have gotten far more attention in this thread than your terrible arguments merit.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Zerocage hated change because it hurt his characters. These changes help me. Your insult is dismissed. Multiple arc accounts might make it possible when combined with the q exchange. But it doesn't matter, because game balance doesn't care about that anyway. If my arguments are so terrible, why has no one yet come up with an honest reason for why one class that isn't pay-to-win should be blatantly superior to every other non-pay-to-win class, hm?
Someone who pays for a FF slot or gold doesn't need to resort to such tactics and can remain on a single account while doing so. They don't need to bother with jumping through hoops, making multiple accounts and come off as desperate. FF slots and gold subscription with price tags are superior on a more valued level compared to silver ATs.
It's charming that you like to dismiss everyone who points out flaws and obvious ignorance in your arguments, especially when the F2P matrix aka reality of the situation exists to show those flaws. Because of how the F2P business model works and how Cryptic intends for people to step away from silver ATs and pay for FF access instead.
There you go. Honest reason given. It's really that simple and easy a concept to understand.
At least that's the reason why i'm playing an AT, since 2011.
But, if you insist on continuing this, sure, because once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. Yes, Cryptic makes money from people who don't want to jump through the hoops. Which is why they're fine with allowing for free FFs. Which just leads back to the balance point that you conveniently ignored. I've already explained previously that the developer intent argument is not an honest one.
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner. Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think its honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
There is a reason to play an AT instead of a FF character, one that existed from the earliest stages of the development of the concept of ATs in CO, ease of access. Even a Gold player might decide that he doesnt want to take the time or spend the thought on creating a character build. Even a FF character modeled after and AT takes more effort than just picking an AT and running with it.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner. Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think is honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
Balance point? You mean this mystical balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it wouldn't make sense marketing-wise on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner.
If it makes you feel any better, I wouldn't really care if they actually decided to focus on balancing ATs with FFs in the near future. I just don't see it as something realistic in a business sense. Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think is honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's BS reasoning, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
Let's dismantle that. The best AT's for end game are Premium (aprox $15) or the purchase of a $50 FF slot. Many Silvers have purchased an AT or FF Slot.
Cosmic Keys: The buying and selling of cosmic keys is a THRIVING part of CO's limited economy. I'll bet money that Silver Players buy more Cosmic Keys then subscribers do. Whenever I want something from the AH -- I buy cosmic keys and re-sell them.
C-store purchases: Become devices, inventory slots, expanded bank limits, sidekicks, vehicles --- all services that benefit a Silver player much more than they do a Subscriber. I'm sure that's not by accident.
The subscription model is dead and has been dead in MMO's for a long time. The money is in micro-transactions. If anything Cryptic should consider going to a model like STO. You don't need to subscribe to enjoy STO -- but the best ships must be purchased. You can subscribe if you want to -- but if you don't you're not missing much. And even if you do subscribe the best ships still must be purchased (though you can more easily earn good free ships as a subscriber)
Note: Last year I spent $60 on ZEN. I am probably not unique in this. If anything I bet I'm on the low end of Zen purchases for a silver player. Another silly player myth busted. Because it's one of many myths that bitter long-time players have repeated so often that it's now taken as gospel. All one has to do is pick one of the AT's that has a build similar to a decent FF. Look for Ward/Guardicator, an energy unlock, decent attacks, CON, and self-healing. If you look at the most recently released DPS AT's you'll notice a pattern... it's not by accident.