I would be very interested to know where this idea that ATs are objectively worthless comes from. Having seen them tank, dps, and heal endgame content, and having seen them solo the QWZ, I would have to wonder what is left for them to do to prove their worth?
I would be very interested to know where this idea that ATs are objectively worthless comes from. Having seen them tank, dps, and heal endgame content, and having seen them solo the QWZ, I would have to wonder what is left for them to do to prove their worth?
I know I don't speak for anyone but myself, but personally I think the notion tends to come from a bit of a skewed perspective created by a disproportionately large number of AT players that are terrible at playing their chosen AT or don't play their AT to the Role they are assigned to... I know for a fact that the massive amount of Glaciers who think they are Icicles for the longest time instilled the notion to myself that the Glacier is a terrible tank AT... I don't believe that anymore as I've seen what the Glacier is actually capable of, but for the longest time I was under the impression that the Glacier simply couldn't tank despite being a tank role AT, all because every single Glacier I had encountered believed themselves to be a DPS (and a rather bad one at that even)
That's actually not true. Arc Quests make it possible to earn a FF slot without anyone spending a penny or even playing the game. That was the whole point I was arguing. Since FF isn't truly a pay-to-win class, there's no rational argument for it to be blatantly superior to everything else in every way, and making it such can only turn it into a game breaker.
Unless you can show that you can get free numerous FF slots via Arc Quests at a rate so impressive that it outright trivializes the ZEN price tag of a FF slot into redundancy, then it's your argument that isn't rational.
Multiple arc accounts might make it possible when combined with the q exchange. But it doesn't matter, because game balance doesn't care about that anyway.
I may respond to something someone else says, but you have gotten far more attention in this thread than your terrible arguments merit.
If my arguments are so terrible, why has no one yet come up with an honest reason for why one class that isn't pay-to-win should be blatantly superior to every other non-pay-to-win class, hm?
Multiple arc accounts might make it possible when combined with the q exchange. But it doesn't matter, because game balance doesn't care about that anyway.
Resorting to making multiple accounts isn't justification of anything; it's just exploitation of the fact that multiple free email services exist to provide limitless email accounts for Arc account registration.
Someone who pays for a FF slot or gold doesn't need to resort to such tactics and can remain on a single account while doing so. They don't need to bother with jumping through hoops, making multiple accounts and come off as desperate. FF slots and gold subscription with price tags are superior on a more valued level compared to silver ATs.
It's charming that you like to dismiss everyone who points out flaws and obvious ignorance in your arguments, especially when the F2P matrix aka reality of the situation exists to show those flaws.
If my arguments are so terrible, why has no one yet come up with an honest reason for why one class that isn't pay-to-win should be blatantly superior to every other non-pay-to-win class, hm?
Because of how the F2P business model works and how Cryptic intends for people to step away from silver ATs and pay for FF access instead.
There you go. Honest reason given. It's really that simple and easy a concept to understand.
There already is a reason to play an AT. Some ppl like to challenge themselves. FF can be godly and that's not always fun, because it makes the majority of content, way too easy. (2x AD, CON / spec synergies, etc.)
At least that's the reason why i'm playing an AT, since 2011.
Multiple arc accounts might make it possible when combined with the q exchange. But it doesn't matter, because game balance doesn't care about that anyway.
Resorting to making multiple accounts isn't justification of anything; it's just exploitation of the fact that multiple free email services exist to provide limitless email accounts for Arc account registration.
Someone who pays for a FF slot or gold doesn't need to resort to such tactics and can remain on a single account while doing so. They don't need to bother with jumping through hoops, making multiple accounts and come off as desperate. FF slots and gold subscription with price tags are superior on a more valued level compared to silver ATs.
It's charming that you like to dismiss everyone who points out flaws and obvious ignorance in your arguments
The irony here is staggering.
But, if you insist on continuing this, sure, because once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. Yes, Cryptic makes money from people who don't want to jump through the hoops. Which is why they're fine with allowing for free FFs. Which just leads back to the balance point that you conveniently ignored.
If my arguments are so terrible, why has no one yet come up with an honest reason for why one class that isn't pay-to-win should be blatantly superior to every other non-pay-to-win class, hm?
Because of how the F2P business model works and how Cryptic intends for people to step away from silver ATs and pay for FF access instead.
There you go. Honest reason given. It's really that simple and easy a concept to understand.
I've already explained previously that the developer intent argument is not an honest one.
But, if you insist on continuing this, sure, because once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. Yes, Cryptic makes money from people who don't want to jump through the hoops. Which is why they're fine with allowing for free FFs. Which just leads back to the balance point that you conveniently ignored.
Free FF slots are in (intentional) restricted limited supply and are obviously meant as goodwill rewards. That's all there is to them. If your argument is that methods of getting FF slots for free is the end result of people actually paying for FF slots or gold, then you probably didn't realize beforehand that it would only make paid-for FF a whole lot more valuable and the main focus of Cryptic's business model, if it were actually true anyway and not just your own personal assumption (which I'm pretty sure is the case)
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner.
I've already explained previously that the developer intent argument is not an honest one.
Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think its honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
Back at the time the game was preparing to go F2P a point made by the devs was that some significant amount of feedback they had from players who had quit the game after giving it a shot, who had bought the game but chose not to subscribe, was that the character build system was too complex. They found it confusing. The AT system was, in part, meant to allow players accustomed to picking a class and then making a very small number of choices within that class' strictly defined progression, and get right into playing...without having to worry that their new character was ruined from the get go by choices they had made.
There is a reason to play an AT instead of a FF character, one that existed from the earliest stages of the development of the concept of ATs in CO, ease of access. Even a Gold player might decide that he doesnt want to take the time or spend the thought on creating a character build. Even a FF character modeled after and AT takes more effort than just picking an AT and running with it.
But, if you insist on continuing this, sure, because once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. Yes, Cryptic makes money from people who don't want to jump through the hoops. Which is why they're fine with allowing for free FFs. Which just leads back to the balance point that you conveniently ignored.
Free FF slots are in (intentional) restricted limited supply and are obviously meant as goodwill rewards. That's all there is to them. If your argument is that methods of getting FF slots for free is the end result of people actually paying for FF slots or gold, then you probably didn't realize beforehand that it would only make paid-for FF a whole lot more valuable and the main focus of Cryptic's business model, if it were actually true anyway and not just your own personal assumption (which I'm pretty sure is the case)
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner.
I've already explained previously that the developer intent argument is not an honest one.
Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think is honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
But, if you insist on continuing this, sure, because once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. Yes, Cryptic makes money from people who don't want to jump through the hoops. Which is why they're fine with allowing for free FFs. Which just leads back to the balance point that you conveniently ignored.
Free FF slots are in (intentional) restricted limited supply and are obviously meant as goodwill rewards. That's all there is to them. If your argument is that methods of getting FF slots for free is the end result of people actually paying for FF slots or gold, then you probably didn't realize beforehand that it would only make paid-for FF a whole lot more valuable and the main focus of Cryptic's business model, if it were actually true anyway and not just your own personal assumption (which I'm pretty sure is the case)
Balance point? You mean this mystical balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it wouldn't make sense marketing-wise on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner.
If it makes you feel any better, I wouldn't really care if they actually decided to focus on balancing ATs with FFs in the near future. I just don't see it as something realistic in a business sense.
I've already explained previously that the developer intent argument is not an honest one.
Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think is honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's BS reasoning, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
Let's dismantle that. The best AT's for end game are Premium (aprox $15) or the purchase of a $50 FF slot. Many Silvers have purchased an AT or FF Slot.
Cosmic Keys: The buying and selling of cosmic keys is a THRIVING part of CO's limited economy. I'll bet money that Silver Players buy more Cosmic Keys then subscribers do. Whenever I want something from the AH -- I buy cosmic keys and re-sell them.
C-store purchases: Become devices, inventory slots, expanded bank limits, sidekicks, vehicles --- all services that benefit a Silver player much more than they do a Subscriber. I'm sure that's not by accident.
The subscription model is dead and has been dead in MMO's for a long time. The money is in micro-transactions. If anything Cryptic should consider going to a model like STO. You don't need to subscribe to enjoy STO -- but the best ships must be purchased. You can subscribe if you want to -- but if you don't you're not missing much. And even if you do subscribe the best ships still must be purchased (though you can more easily earn good free ships as a subscriber)
Note: Last year I spent $60 on ZEN. I am probably not unique in this. If anything I bet I'm on the low end of Zen purchases for a silver player. Another silly player myth busted.
I would be very interested to know where this idea that ATs are objectively worthless comes from. Having seen them tank, dps, and heal endgame content, and having seen them solo the QWZ, I would have to wonder what is left for them to do to prove their worth?
Because it's one of many myths that bitter long-time players have repeated so often that it's now taken as gospel. All one has to do is pick one of the AT's that has a build similar to a decent FF. Look for Ward/Guardicator, an energy unlock, decent attacks, CON, and self-healing. If you look at the most recently released DPS AT's you'll notice a pattern... it's not by accident.
This is slightly off topic, but.. In my opinion, good gamers adapt to changes and do not resort to whining.
And as i mentioned before, playing an AT is more fun, than playing a FF. Ofc preferences are subjective and may vary from person, to person. I'm for example the type of gamer, who likes ultra hard modes in video games. The best possible example i can think of is the ultimate vault hunter mode in Borderlands 2. I would not play the game, if it hadn't said difficulty setting. And for those of you that aren't aware of what the UVHM in BL 2 is, imagine every single mob in CO would have millions of hp and could 1 shot any player. That is the UVHM.
I know it wouldn't have all this pointless topics for one. This is only game ever encountered where divides playerbase in such a way. I understand ATs are sort of a demo mode if they truely wanted go this route why not make the whole game sub based only. Do like WoW did where trial mode ends at certain level.
Hell way I see it this would save the damn game and drive off all the freeloading parasites aka Silvers who contribute nothing to longevity or growth of the game. So who else agrees?
Anyone who wants to troll? You know very well this was a sub only game before. No one moves to this kind of system if the sub only was working.
I think person says the idea ATs are objectively worthless is because they are. I've in the past played both styles if can call that quite well. They are objectively worse due to build makeup nothing more or less.
"They're worthless because they're worthless" doesn't really explain why they're worthless. Like I said, ATs can be used in endgame content, and can solo things if played well, just like FFs. Given that, how do you quantify their worth? How do you come up with a value of 0? Just because they're not as good as FFs doesn't make them worthless - it perhaps makes them worth less, hence the lower price.
During my years of playing an AT they never felt worthless to me, and when I see them show up in endgame content I don't see a worthless participant. If the player is bad sure, but that applies to a FF as well.
If my arguments are so terrible, why has no one yet come up with an honest reason for why one class that isn't pay-to-win should be blatantly superior to every other non-pay-to-win class, hm?
Because you refuse to accept anything you disagree with. People are making honest, logical arguments that counter what you're saying, and you're basically responding with "NU UH!" and then repeating the thing that was countered as if it re-counters what you're responding to. You're clearly not interested in hearing anyone else's opinion if they don't agree with you... makes it something of a mystery then why you're bothering to feign a debate.
Back at the time the game was preparing to go F2P a point made by the devs was that some significant amount of feedback they had from players who had quit the game after giving it a shot, who had bought the game but chose not to subscribe, was that the character build system was too complex. They found it confusing. The AT system was, in part, meant to allow players accustomed to picking a class and then making a very small number of choices within that class' strictly defined progression, and get right into playing...without having to worry that their new character was ruined from the get go by choices they had made.
As it turns out a FF-only CO is not such a utopia for everyone.
Even just yesterday, I just kept getting queued into instances where one player would run ahead and solo the entire alert.
In that sense, it actually discourages teamwork and no one else gets to play the game. I dunno, how people can think that's "perfectly balanced" gameplay.
Also the game difficulty arguement needs to STOP
STOP comparing the game as whole with the Casual Level-Difficulty alerts as arguement
Those Alerts are easy for any player who is lvl 40, both FF and TA , fully gear and knows what is doing. They were NOT design to be end game
and ATs can do exactly the same, some of them can stomp and solo alerts
Because NEWS FLASH, the end game is not cake walk like the alerts
DEVs are spiking the difficulty of the game for the REAL END GAME (Cosmics, events, lairs) those stuff are NOT meant to be soloed by everyone and REQUIRE team play
I think FF is really boring, you can walk into alerts and literally solo the entire thing which defeats the purpose of an MMO.
a SUPER HERO MMO mind you, Super Heroes are not know for being wussies and being stomped by villains
and maybe it boring for you, but for other like myself, it's a Tool to create themed characters, some of them WELL-ROUNDED
and if you think it's just a tool to make you unbeatable in everything, then you are wrong
Post edited by avianos on
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
I think FF is really boring, you can walk into alerts and literally solo the entire thing which defeats the purpose of an MMO.
Even just yesterday, I just kept getting queued into instances where one player would run ahead and solo the entire alert.
In that sense, it actually discourages teamwork and no one else gets to play the game. I dunno, how people can think that's "perfectly balanced" gameplay.
To be fair, I've seen ATs do the exact same thing (Behemoth, Scourge, Devastator, Rock Star, Unleashed, and even a Blade before). And FF also allows you to make builds that are even more reliant on teammates than ATs are... Example: My Mind-controller, Achroma, her build is extremly light on damage and attempting to solo on her would take a VERY long time, however, she is very adept at crowd control and damage control making encounters much easier for others.
I'm a sub and I have a few ATs characters. No plans to change them to FFs.
Why do I have some ATs, even though I could just make them FFs?
The ATs in question suited a a theme I wanted for the toons.
At one point, for money reasons, there was the chance that I'd have needed to cancel my sub. I figured having a couple of AT toons would make things easier if I had to go silver.
FFs are all about choice, which is great for theory-crafting some insane builds. But sometimes it's nice to see what you can do with a limit. And honestly, sometimes I don't feel like planning out every inch of a build.
Side note: I do like seeing ATs getting a few more choices in power selections.
FFs are good for experimentation, but I think are overrated which is why the price should be decreased. There are so many min/max builds you can make with FF that are above and beyond what ATs can do.
FF slots have never been a good selling point of this game. It is the costumes that brings in the money for Cryptic and their starving hamsters working on the servers IMVHO!
Not everyone's about uber. And you know that as well. Are you TRYING to be extra obnoxious so they'll ban you again?
I'm not LTS, but I might as well be as long as I've been Gold. And I still play my "starter" Behemoth, and have a couple ATs spread through my "pack", as well as a whole 2nd FTP account that's nothing but ATs (except for the freebie Freeform from last year).
I think because the "endgame" content is already as boring as it is, playing my AT (which has inferior healing and defensive capabilities than my FF with a strictly limited toolkit to work with) is far more exciting and engaging.
You know, you can make a FF that fits those qualifications. Just don't take any of the powers you think will make things too easy. I do it all the time and it's a hoot. There's nothing that says you have to load up on healing and ADs and other stuff like that.
I say keep upping the difficulty to point ATs cannot do any of the endgame content. This is the only way that ATs will ever be fixed by being made irrelevant and inferior then removed.
So keep laughing but there is a subset of gamers who love insane difficulty be it in single player games or massive multiplayer.
Well, if someone needs everything to be "insanely difficult" then they are only going to be able to enjoy a very narrow selection of games, and this isn't one of them. I like challenging games and I think for the genre, for the mechanics, and for the engine, the level of challenge that they have introduced recently into the game is fine. If they make some even more challenging content than what's there now that'd be great, but if they don't then that's fine too. I don't need everything to be [insert insanely hard game here].
Also how is it my fault Cryptic / PWE refuses to adapt to changing gaming market with gamers who's tastes are changing this isn't 2009 it is 2017 get with the times or get left behind. Oh wait..
When you try to change something too much too quickly, the usual result is that you ruin it. It's important to know when you have a good thing, and not be too obsessed with trying to do what other people are doing. CO doesn't need to turn into a different mmo.
There are plenty of AT players who do just fine in TA and cosmics. To think they can't do it, you'd either have to be one of those people who never does end game stuff, or someone who just ignores all the ATs who do fine in that content. I have even seen some Behemoths and Glaciers who can tank cosmics while putting out more threat than most FF tanks.
I say keep upping the difficulty to point ATs cannot do any of the endgame content. This is the only way that ATs will ever be fixed by being made irrelevant and inferior then removed. And a blade who is ST focused steamrolling an alert. Please lie more it shows that class.The only time a Blade is worth a flip in an alert is when on the actual boss and has someone else in the group to heal the spike damage done to them. For real people quit making up rubbish about ATs they are all poorly made and do not even fit into content of the game.
Which now when they remove the DR thing they will be far worse. That is really some improvement to go from being below average to quite inferior. Maybe its Cryptic common sense like their math rofl.
Also this idea is horrible and I'm pretty sure you are just trolling. If they upped the difficulty to that point, not only would it screw over ATs, but a lot of FFs too. You'd be limiting the amount of viable builds quite a lot, and in a game were customization is the main selling point, that just wouldn't work. I'd rather see difficulty be based more on skill instead of requiring people to use only certain builds.
I think person says the idea ATs are objectively worthless is because they are. I've in the past played both styles if can call that quite well. They are objectively worse due to build makeup nothing more or less.
"They're worthless because they're worthless" doesn't really explain why they're worthless. Like I said, ATs can be used in endgame content, and can solo things if played well, just like FFs. Given that, how do you quantify their worth? How do you come up with a value of 0? Just because they're not as good as FFs doesn't make them worthless - it perhaps makes them worth less, hence the lower price.
During my years of playing an AT they never felt worthless to me, and when I see them show up in endgame content I don't see a worthless participant. If the player is bad sure, but that applies to a FF as well.
You're defining worthless in a different way than he is. He (and I for that matter) are defining worthless in terms of mechanical advantage. If you're playing something that offers no mechanical advantage while better options are available, then what you're playing is worthless, in the same way that a musket is worthless in the face of an M16. You are not worthless, but what you're playing is, and the more investment you put in, the deeper the hole goes.
To be clear, I do not support any of the things he's actually saying. The claim that ATs can't work in endgame content is disproven every day.
If my arguments are so terrible, why has no one yet come up with an honest reason for why one class that isn't pay-to-win should be blatantly superior to every other non-pay-to-win class, hm?
Because you refuse to accept anything you disagree with. People are making honest, logical arguments that counter what you're saying, and you're basically responding with "NU UH!" and then repeating the thing that was countered as if it re-counters what you're responding to. You're clearly not interested in hearing anyone else's opinion if they don't agree with you... makes it something of a mystery then why you're bothering to feign a debate.
The argument thus far can largely be summarized as me pointing out that the game becoming less balanced is a bad thing, then people claim otherwise, and come up with easily disproven rationalizations. I'm not going to go through it all again step-by-step, because I'm tired of going through this. And, frankly, I don't need to. To claim that the game becoming less balanced is good is an indefensible argument, because lack of balance is a bad thing in a game. To claim it's intended or whatnot doesn't change that simple fact.
And again this talk of ATs doing fine I will continue to call bullshit until see proof with my own eyes.
I would venture to guess that everyone here is perfectly fine with that. You believe what you wanna believe, and we'll continue to remember what we've seen with our very own eyes.
The argument thus far can largely be summarized as me pointing out that the game becoming less balanced is a bad thing, then people claim otherwise
Oh look, a strawman. Nobody here is claiming that it's okay for the game to become less balanced ( well, except lonewanderer I guess, so you should probably be arguing directly with him about that ). If that's what you think you've been arguing against then that explains why your arguments have made little to no sense.
You're defining worthless in a different way than he is. He (and I for that matter) are defining worthless in terms of mechanical advantage. If you're playing something that offers no mechanical advantage while better options are available, then what you're playing is worthless, in the same way that a musket is worthless in the face of an M16. You are not worthless, but what you're playing is, and the more investment you put in, the deeper the hole goes.
Again you're mistaking worthless for worth less. You're also grossly exaggerating the power gap with the M16/Musket thing. ATs are hardly a musket. If anything it'd be like comparing two M16s, but only one of them can have accessories attached, like a bipod or a reflex sight.
You seem to be defining worth as a binary value, but the problem is that if you continue on with that logic then every dps AT and FF build in the game is worthless except for builds like those possessed by vixy, splaid, or lyn because what you're arguing is that everything but the best option is worthless. Generally worth is a broader spectrum. For example when talking about cars people don't say that every car that doesn't have the highest possible gas mileage is worthless; the cars are instead valued from lowest to highest based on gas mileage relative to one another ( and other factors ). ATs and FFs would similarly be judged in this manner. ATs would certainly not be a 0, since if someone brings one to a fight they are going to contribute, which will enable them and the players around them to achieve some sort of progression and hence the AT being there has worth to the other people present and to the player using it.
There's a difference between wanting the game to be less balanced, and identfying logical reasons as to why ATs aren't balanced against FF. Nobody has been supporting the former. Well only one person is, and I doubt he's being taken seriously.
Defining whether a build has worth in the context of mechanical advantage isn't as simple as whether or not it has the highest dps or what have you. Consider a hypothetical CO where the only classes are FF, a pre-patch Unleashed, and a pre-patch Blade. The Blade and the Unleashed both do more damage than the FF, but they have different builds than one another, leading to slightly different niches (the Unleashed is much tougher than the Blade, but the Blade gets to have a lunge). The FF, meanwhile, can claim balance simply by copying the build of either one and then adding an AD or resurrection serum or something else that neither the Unleashed nor the Blade can do (to say nothing of tanks, healers, and the countless other combinations FFs can do). That's what a balanced game looks like; every class gets their own little niche that they can occupy (unless the player intentionally chooses a suboptimal build for their class), even if that niche has a lot of overlap with that of another class.
Now, to be clear, I wasn't criticizing your way of defining worth; both ways have their advantages depending on the context (which is why the word's definition is often so hazy; people use it differently depending on context). But I happen to be of the opinion that in a balance discussion, the mechanical advantage definition is more useful.
Moving on, the patch has made the game less balanced. To claim that it is okay therefore implies that one is okay with the game being less balanced, unless one happens to be of the opinion that balance will be re-established in the future in some other way that they consider better (which while potentially a reasonable position to take, is not one that I've seen anyone take yet).
Now, to be fair, this was done pre-patch. But it was also done on my Unleashed, who didn't significantly benefit from the reduced DR due to his 260 con.
How about the devs just tweak the difficulty slider settings for Hard and Elite? Back before the "On Alert" patch (where PC power level was generally increased by a significant amount), the Elite setting really did provide an additional challenge. It still does, but not as noticeable as it used to be, from what I recall. IMO, the difficulty slider's a great concept. It lets the game cater to both casual and hardcore players.
Now, to be fair, this was done pre-patch. But it was also done on my Unleashed, who didn't significantly benefit from the reduced DR due to his 260 con.
I cannot take you serious anymore. You were able to stack that much constitution BECAUSE of the DR - bug... Do it now and your dmg will be insanely low. So yeah, easy mode Unleashed gameplay is a thing of the past, for good. In my personal opinion, they still are benefitting too much from talent/stat synergies, which causes the push a key - gameplay. But it is also due to DW being overpowered. It is by far not as gamebreaking as it used to be before the DR bug got fixed, though.
I always considered the Unleashed the most newbie friendly AT, because it literally takes zero skill to be good at playing it.
Why is it a horrible idea exactly? Also you mentioned AT tanks due to put out more threat vs FF ones. Take a guess as to why. Now when the DR I'll call it a buff is removed because that is what it actually does for pathetic ATs. Then you will never again see a tank AT doing that that % higher damage threshold went a long ways towards generating threat to keep up with dps's escalating and imho out of control dps. See unlike most idiot tanks I know you need more than just survivability and defensive numbers due to how broken threat is gauged in this game.
And you not paying attention? They been upping difficulty for a while now.And again this talk of ATs doing fine I will continue to call bullshit until see proof with my own eyes. If your definition of fine is getting absolutely worked with zero utility to fall back on than yeah.
Also why not keep upping difficulty kinda have to to offset gear that keeps getting stronger and stronger and stronger. When did this become a gear grind like most crappy mmorpgs by the way.
I already said why it's a horrible idea, and I have been paying attention. In order to make it impossible for ATs to do end game content, you'd also be making it impossible for all but the best FF builds to do end game content. That's not real difficulty. That's not how you make a game fun and challenging. That's how you exclude people who don't want to have the same builds as everyone else. Real difficulty requires skill, not a copy and pasted build.
Moving on, the patch has made the game less balanced. To claim that it is okay therefore implies that one is okay with the game being less balanced, unless one happens to be of the opinion that balance will be re-established in the future in some other way that they consider better (which while potentially a reasonable position to take, is not one that I've seen anyone take yet).
I feel utterly ignored now... and I'm sure many others do as well... as many of us are of that opinion and have expressed as much quite clearly already.
Now, to be fair, this was done pre-patch. But it was also done on my Unleashed, who didn't significantly benefit from the reduced DR due to his 260 con.
I cannot take you serious anymore. You were able to stack that much constitution BECAUSE of the DR - bug... Do it now and your dmg will be insanely low. So yeah, easy mode Unleashed gameplay is a thing of the past, for good. In my personal opinion, they still are benefitting too much from talent/stat synergies, which causes the push a key - gameplay. But it is also due to DW being overpowered. It is by far not as gamebreaking as it used to be before the DR bug got fixed, though.
I always considered the Unleashed the most newbie friendly AT, because it literally takes zero skill to be good at playing it.
You clearly have no understanding of what DR even is... DR = Diminishing Returns... It's a limitation that is applied to stats values beyond a certain point, some have hard caps some have soft caps. A hard cap as the name implies is a solid limit, any value exceeding this limit is cut down to the cap. A soft cap is where DR tends to come into play, for example, if damage had a soft cap of +50% then any stat values that increased damage past that +50% mark would be at a severely reduced rate, What may have been + 1% per 1 point could easily be +1% per 100 points, making it an unrewarding investment.
That said, an Unleashed with 260 Con and low Str would NOT benefit from the DR bug, the bug only comes into play when their damage stats provide a bonus that exceeds the cap. If they didn't reach that point with their build then they are completely unaffected by the DR bug and any damage they were pulling was the exact same values they will be pulling without the DR bug in place.
Now, to be fair, this was done pre-patch. But it was also done on my Unleashed, who didn't significantly benefit from the reduced DR due to his 260 con.
I cannot take you serious anymore. You were able to stack that much constitution BECAUSE of the DR - bug... Do it now and your dmg will be insanely low. So yeah, easy mode Unleashed gameplay is a thing of the past, for good. In my personal opinion, they still are benefitting too much from talent/stat synergies, which causes the push a key - gameplay. But it is also due to DW being overpowered. It is by far not as gamebreaking as it used to be before the DR bug got fixed, though.
I always considered the Unleashed the most newbie friendly AT, because it literally takes zero skill to be good at playing it.
Then why am I still getting near the top score in the new event, with people like BK and Kamo around?
To be perfectly honest, the only thing I think I might not be able to do any more is solo the Mandragalore, because that was just barely within the limits of the old Unleashed's power (and then only with a fairly specific build, gear, and devices). But that's okay, because I think no one should be able to solo the Mandragalore anyway.
In any case, the only thing that makes the Unleashed powerful compared to certain ATs is its combination of high damage with a reasonable level of defense and some slight self-healing. But those last two things don't matter in TA. In TA, damage numbers are so high that if you get aggro you die whether you're an Unleashed or a Soldier. The only thing that really matters then for the dps is whether you know the fights, can react to the necessary stimuli (yellow bubbles, for example), and can inflict enough damage to pass the dps check on the hatchling. Those first two things are not class-specific, and the third thing can be done by any dps AT.
Moving on, the patch has made the game less balanced. To claim that it is okay therefore implies that one is okay with the game being less balanced, unless one happens to be of the opinion that balance will be re-established in the future in some other way that they consider better (which while potentially a reasonable position to take, is not one that I've seen anyone take yet).
I feel utterly ignored now... and I'm sure many others do as well... as many of us are of that opinion and have expressed as much quite clearly already.
The only post you've made in this thread (I can't check what was in the old thread for obvious reasons) that could be taken to mean that would be your first one, but in that very post you claim that ATs should be as powerful as most FFs, while simultaneously claiming that there shouldn't be a reason to play an AT, which doesn't make sense to me, since FFs have advantages ATs don't, so for ATs to be as powerful, they would have to have something going for them that FFs don't, which would give them a reason to be played over FFs. And then you also claim that it's impossible to truly balance them against FFs. Now, if I've misinterpreted some part of that, feel free to clarify. But it's difficult to deny that there are people in this thread who have claimed that superiority of FFs is inevitable and acceptable, which is clearly an argument against balance.
You clearly have no understanding of what DR even is... DR = Diminishing Returns... It's a limitation that is applied to stats values beyond a certain point, some have hard caps some have soft caps.
Most Cryptic DR does not cut in only 'beyond a certain point', it just means each additional +1 provides a bit less bonus than the previous. You can fairly easily see DR on characters by taking note of your tooltip damages at 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 stacks of your form, and looking at the amount by which damage increases each time you gain a stack -- for a freeform, or an AT affected by DR, each number will be a bit smaller than the previous.
For average builds and gear, you're probably looking at a 10-20% real reduction in dps. An extremely focused build with top end gear can lose upwards of 30%.
Why is it a horrible idea exactly? Also you mentioned AT tanks due to put out more threat vs FF ones. Take a guess as to why. Now when the DR I'll call it a buff is removed because that is what it actually does for pathetic ATs. Then you will never again see a tank AT doing that that % higher damage threshold went a long ways towards generating threat to keep up with dps's escalating and imho out of control dps. See unlike most idiot tanks I know you need more than just survivability and defensive numbers due to how broken threat is gauged in this game.
And you not paying attention? They been upping difficulty for a while now.And again this talk of ATs doing fine I will continue to call bullshit until see proof with my own eyes. If your definition of fine is getting absolutely worked with zero utility to fall back on than yeah.
Also why not keep upping difficulty kinda have to to offset gear that keeps getting stronger and stronger and stronger. When did this become a gear grind like most crappy mmorpgs by the way.
Ugh... Forums ate my post and I don't feel like typing that all over again so I'm just going to type a shorter version. Anyway, I have been paying attention. You don't need to make builds useless to increase difficulty. Making ATs useless in end game content would also make all but the best FF builds useless, and that is one of the worst possible ways to increase difficulty. That doesn't make it more challenging, it just makes it so that everyone has to copy and paste the same builds. That's why it's a horrible idea.
The DR bug gave bad classes their own niche, without preventing FFs from having their own niche(s). So, yes, it was good for balance. To claim otherwise is nonsense.
The DR bug gave bad classes their own niche, without preventing FFs from having their own niche(s). So, yes, it was good for balance. To claim otherwise is nonsense.
It removed the validity of DPS FFs, which is objectively bad.
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Zerocage hated change because it hurt his characters. These changes help me. Your insult is dismissed. Multiple arc accounts might make it possible when combined with the q exchange. But it doesn't matter, because game balance doesn't care about that anyway. If my arguments are so terrible, why has no one yet come up with an honest reason for why one class that isn't pay-to-win should be blatantly superior to every other non-pay-to-win class, hm?
Someone who pays for a FF slot or gold doesn't need to resort to such tactics and can remain on a single account while doing so. They don't need to bother with jumping through hoops, making multiple accounts and come off as desperate. FF slots and gold subscription with price tags are superior on a more valued level compared to silver ATs.
It's charming that you like to dismiss everyone who points out flaws and obvious ignorance in your arguments, especially when the F2P matrix aka reality of the situation exists to show those flaws. Because of how the F2P business model works and how Cryptic intends for people to step away from silver ATs and pay for FF access instead.
There you go. Honest reason given. It's really that simple and easy a concept to understand.
At least that's the reason why i'm playing an AT, since 2011.
But, if you insist on continuing this, sure, because once again, you've shot yourself in the foot. Yes, Cryptic makes money from people who don't want to jump through the hoops. Which is why they're fine with allowing for free FFs. Which just leads back to the balance point that you conveniently ignored. I've already explained previously that the developer intent argument is not an honest one.
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner. Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think its honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
There is a reason to play an AT instead of a FF character, one that existed from the earliest stages of the development of the concept of ATs in CO, ease of access. Even a Gold player might decide that he doesnt want to take the time or spend the thought on creating a character build. Even a FF character modeled after and AT takes more effort than just picking an AT and running with it.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Balance point? You mean this mystical laughably-idealistic game balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it would be a stupid business decision on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner. Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think is honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's a dishonest business practice, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
Balance point? You mean this mystical balance between FFs and ATs that's somehow supposed to exist? I already addressed it in page one of this thread. There is never going to be "balance" between FFs and ATs, because it wouldn't make sense marketing-wise on Cryptic's part to trivialize paid-for FF in such a manner.
If it makes you feel any better, I wouldn't really care if they actually decided to focus on balancing ATs with FFs in the near future. I just don't see it as something realistic in a business sense. Then you might need to wait a whole lot longer for an honest answer that you personally think is honest and not the unmitigated truth that the game exists and as a business and a business exists to be profitable. Balance disparity between ATs and FFs with ATs getting the shorter end of the stick gives the incentive of getting people to invest money in the game.
I mean, it's fine if you personally think it's BS reasoning, but the business model is exactly that and has kept the business running for this many years now.
Let's dismantle that. The best AT's for end game are Premium (aprox $15) or the purchase of a $50 FF slot. Many Silvers have purchased an AT or FF Slot.
Cosmic Keys: The buying and selling of cosmic keys is a THRIVING part of CO's limited economy. I'll bet money that Silver Players buy more Cosmic Keys then subscribers do. Whenever I want something from the AH -- I buy cosmic keys and re-sell them.
C-store purchases: Become devices, inventory slots, expanded bank limits, sidekicks, vehicles --- all services that benefit a Silver player much more than they do a Subscriber. I'm sure that's not by accident.
The subscription model is dead and has been dead in MMO's for a long time. The money is in micro-transactions. If anything Cryptic should consider going to a model like STO. You don't need to subscribe to enjoy STO -- but the best ships must be purchased. You can subscribe if you want to -- but if you don't you're not missing much. And even if you do subscribe the best ships still must be purchased (though you can more easily earn good free ships as a subscriber)
Note: Last year I spent $60 on ZEN. I am probably not unique in this. If anything I bet I'm on the low end of Zen purchases for a silver player. Another silly player myth busted. Because it's one of many myths that bitter long-time players have repeated so often that it's now taken as gospel. All one has to do is pick one of the AT's that has a build similar to a decent FF. Look for Ward/Guardicator, an energy unlock, decent attacks, CON, and self-healing. If you look at the most recently released DPS AT's you'll notice a pattern... it's not by accident.
And as i mentioned before, playing an AT is more fun, than playing a FF. Ofc preferences are subjective and may vary from person, to person. I'm for example the type of gamer, who likes ultra hard modes in video games. The best possible example i can think of is the ultimate vault hunter mode in Borderlands 2. I would not play the game, if it hadn't said difficulty setting. And for those of you that aren't aware of what the UVHM in BL 2 is, imagine every single mob in CO would have millions of hp and could 1 shot any player. That is the UVHM.
Sounds masochistic, but it's fun.
During my years of playing an AT they never felt worthless to me, and when I see them show up in endgame content I don't see a worthless participant. If the player is bad sure, but that applies to a FF as well.
Because you refuse to accept anything you disagree with. People are making honest, logical arguments that counter what you're saying, and you're basically responding with "NU UH!" and then repeating the thing that was countered as if it re-counters what you're responding to. You're clearly not interested in hearing anyone else's opinion if they don't agree with you... makes it something of a mystery then why you're bothering to feign a debate. Ashensnow makes a good point about this: As it turns out a FF-only CO is not such a utopia for everyone.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Also the game difficulty arguement needs to STOP
STOP comparing the game as whole with the Casual Level-Difficulty alerts as arguement
Those Alerts are easy for any player who is lvl 40, both FF and TA , fully gear and knows what is doing. They were NOT design to be end game
and ATs can do exactly the same, some of them can stomp and solo alerts
Because NEWS FLASH, the end game is not cake walk like the alerts
DEVs are spiking the difficulty of the game for the REAL END GAME (Cosmics, events, lairs) those stuff are NOT meant to be soloed by everyone and REQUIRE team play
a SUPER HERO MMO mind you, Super Heroes are not know for being wussies and being stomped by villains
and maybe it boring for you, but for other like myself, it's a Tool to create themed characters, some of them WELL-ROUNDED
and if you think it's just a tool to make you unbeatable in everything, then you are wrong
Why do I have some ATs, even though I could just make them FFs?
- The ATs in question suited a a theme I wanted for the toons.
- At one point, for money reasons, there was the chance that I'd have needed to cancel my sub. I figured having a couple of AT toons would make things easier if I had to go silver.
- FFs are all about choice, which is great for theory-crafting some insane builds. But sometimes it's nice to see what you can do with a limit. And honestly, sometimes I don't feel like planning out every inch of a build.
Side note: I do like seeing ATs getting a few more choices in power selections.Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
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Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
FFs are good for experimentation, but I think are overrated which is why the price should be decreased. There are so many min/max builds you can make with FF that are above and beyond what ATs can do.
FF slots have never been a good selling point of this game. It is the costumes that brings in the money for Cryptic and their starving hamsters working on the servers IMVHO!
Omicron - Lvl 4x - Mind
Emerald Myst - Lvl 2x - Claws/Fighting Hybrid
Epsilon - Lvl 2x - Blade
Asterius - Lvl 1x - Electric/Void Hybrid
I'm not LTS, but I might as well be as long as I've been Gold. And I still play my "starter" Behemoth, and have a couple ATs spread through my "pack", as well as a whole 2nd FTP account that's nothing but ATs (except for the freebie Freeform from last year).
That seems unlikely.
Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean someone else can't
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
To be clear, I do not support any of the things he's actually saying. The claim that ATs can't work in endgame content is disproven every day. The argument thus far can largely be summarized as me pointing out that the game becoming less balanced is a bad thing, then people claim otherwise, and come up with easily disproven rationalizations. I'm not going to go through it all again step-by-step, because I'm tired of going through this. And, frankly, I don't need to. To claim that the game becoming less balanced is good is an indefensible argument, because lack of balance is a bad thing in a game. To claim it's intended or whatnot doesn't change that simple fact.
Oh look, a strawman. Nobody here is claiming that it's okay for the game to become less balanced ( well, except lonewanderer I guess, so you should probably be arguing directly with him about that ). If that's what you think you've been arguing against then that explains why your arguments have made little to no sense. Again you're mistaking worthless for worth less. You're also grossly exaggerating the power gap with the M16/Musket thing. ATs are hardly a musket. If anything it'd be like comparing two M16s, but only one of them can have accessories attached, like a bipod or a reflex sight.
You seem to be defining worth as a binary value, but the problem is that if you continue on with that logic then every dps AT and FF build in the game is worthless except for builds like those possessed by vixy, splaid, or lyn because what you're arguing is that everything but the best option is worthless. Generally worth is a broader spectrum. For example when talking about cars people don't say that every car that doesn't have the highest possible gas mileage is worthless; the cars are instead valued from lowest to highest based on gas mileage relative to one another ( and other factors ). ATs and FFs would similarly be judged in this manner. ATs would certainly not be a 0, since if someone brings one to a fight they are going to contribute, which will enable them and the players around them to achieve some sort of progression and hence the AT being there has worth to the other people present and to the player using it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Now, to be clear, I wasn't criticizing your way of defining worth; both ways have their advantages depending on the context (which is why the word's definition is often so hazy; people use it differently depending on context). But I happen to be of the opinion that in a balance discussion, the mechanical advantage definition is more useful.
Moving on, the patch has made the game less balanced. To claim that it is okay therefore implies that one is okay with the game being less balanced, unless one happens to be of the opinion that balance will be re-established in the future in some other way that they consider better (which while potentially a reasonable position to take, is not one that I've seen anyone take yet).
Now, as for wanderer...
https://ibb.co/hKmgmF
Now, to be fair, this was done pre-patch. But it was also done on my Unleashed, who didn't significantly benefit from the reduced DR due to his 260 con.
How about the devs just tweak the difficulty slider settings for Hard and Elite? Back before the "On Alert" patch (where PC power level was generally increased by a significant amount), the Elite setting really did provide an additional challenge. It still does, but not as noticeable as it used to be, from what I recall. IMO, the difficulty slider's a great concept. It lets the game cater to both casual and hardcore players.
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I always considered the Unleashed the most newbie friendly AT, because it literally takes zero skill to be good at playing it.
That said, an Unleashed with 260 Con and low Str would NOT benefit from the DR bug, the bug only comes into play when their damage stats provide a bonus that exceeds the cap. If they didn't reach that point with their build then they are completely unaffected by the DR bug and any damage they were pulling was the exact same values they will be pulling without the DR bug in place.
To be perfectly honest, the only thing I think I might not be able to do any more is solo the Mandragalore, because that was just barely within the limits of the old Unleashed's power (and then only with a fairly specific build, gear, and devices). But that's okay, because I think no one should be able to solo the Mandragalore anyway.
In any case, the only thing that makes the Unleashed powerful compared to certain ATs is its combination of high damage with a reasonable level of defense and some slight self-healing. But those last two things don't matter in TA. In TA, damage numbers are so high that if you get aggro you die whether you're an Unleashed or a Soldier. The only thing that really matters then for the dps is whether you know the fights, can react to the necessary stimuli (yellow bubbles, for example), and can inflict enough damage to pass the dps check on the hatchling. Those first two things are not class-specific, and the third thing can be done by any dps AT.
So, yes, ATs can do TA. The only post you've made in this thread (I can't check what was in the old thread for obvious reasons) that could be taken to mean that would be your first one, but in that very post you claim that ATs should be as powerful as most FFs, while simultaneously claiming that there shouldn't be a reason to play an AT, which doesn't make sense to me, since FFs have advantages ATs don't, so for ATs to be as powerful, they would have to have something going for them that FFs don't, which would give them a reason to be played over FFs. And then you also claim that it's impossible to truly balance them against FFs. Now, if I've misinterpreted some part of that, feel free to clarify. But it's difficult to deny that there are people in this thread who have claimed that superiority of FFs is inevitable and acceptable, which is clearly an argument against balance.
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My characters
For average builds and gear, you're probably looking at a 10-20% real reduction in dps. An extremely focused build with top end gear can lose upwards of 30%.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
My super cool CC build and how to use it.