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Powerset Review Discussions: Power Armor/Laser Swords

kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 2,812 Cryptic Developer
edited November 2016 in PTS - The Archive
The next set we're going to be review is Power Armor, in particular Laser Swords. However, the rest of Power Armor is going to be getting some changes as well to address some longstanding bugs with the set.

Power Armor toggle stacking has never really worked the way it was supposed to. You are only supposed to be able to stack up to 3 powers (Shoulder, Chest, Hand), however numerous bugs have allowed players to break those limitations resulting in Power Armor performing better than intended.

The Chest Beam change was made to address that, but there are other charge powers that are causing this bug as well. Chest Beam also has the issue where its damage is far too high to allow it to be used alongside other power armor abilities. This is an issue with tap/charge powers not properly disabling toggles, and not one we have an elegant solution for.

Because of this, Power Armor is going to be seeing a change in the coming weeks where Power Armor charge/tap powers will no longer be considered part of the toggle system and will no longer work alongside the other toggle powers. A couple new toggle powers will be introduced to fill in the gaps and some powers may just be converted into a toggle (Tactical Missiles for example).

Power Armor tap/charge powers will be balanced assuming they can no longer be used in conjunction with other Power Armor powers.

The main goal here is to get Power Armor to function the way it was intended, and from there we can look into further changes to address any balance concerns.

We are creating this thread for feedback regarding the upcoming changes and for some ideas with what players would like to see with the Laser Sword set. Completely rebuilding the set is not in scope, so please keep suggestions within the current limitations of the set.

Right now we are not looking into making the toggle damage scale based on how many you have turned on or making duplicate versions that cannot be used together, so please refrain from making those suggestions. This could possibly happen in the future, but not at this time and we'd like to keep the discussion focused.​​
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Comments

  • xrazamaxxrazamax Posts: 979 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    As long as there are new powers coming to fill in the gap (yay, new powers!) of loosing some charge/tap power and the loss of said powers are being balanced to be used in power armor set. I will just wait and see what is coming, I think a big thing for most people is they don't want to lose their character's theme, so I would just suggest that is kept in mind.

    Laz0r Sw0rdz was always something that didn't feel complete and is incredibly clunky to use. I don't have a concrete suggestion, but I know that building stacks with Particle accelerator to use Unified theory is one of the most agonizing things. You must 1) have a large amount of energy 2) Suffer through a low RNG 3) Watch a very bland animation 4) Have a power (Unified theory) that does nothing at all for you until you get a single stack of Particle accelerator.

    Do this 3 more times, finally you can use Particle Smash. That whole branch of laser sword just feels so slow and lacks flow, it is unpopular despite being a really cool idea. Also: InB4 someone mentions Laser Sword Passive that magically didn't happen.

    TL;DR - I'll wait and see what the new powers are for PA, Laser Sword needs to be more fluid and not so clunky to use. Maybe give it a passive. Maybe.
  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 2,812 Cryptic Developer
    Some notes:
    The whole Unified Theory/Accelerator/Etc mechanic is likely going to be changed entirely for something a bit less convoluted.
    The Unified Theory buff currently buffs base damage, which is a dangerous thing to be doing and will definitely change/get removed entirely.
    Plasma Burn will likely get caught up to speed with Poison/Bleed.

    One thing I really want to ensure is that the set has a good range of animations, which right now isn't so much the case which makes it feel clunky.​​
  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    OK seems you want to take the time to figure out where you want PA to go.

    First things first though, there are some things that need to be adressed considering the scale of the changes:

    1. Sniper gloves either need to get a significant boost OR let people sell them back to get the 5k Villain tokens. This is not a debatable thing, it takes 14 days at best to get this item. For it to be nerfed for the only set it was useful/used it is just not ok.

    2. Free retcon, I expect this is a given considering the changes.

    3. Since the PA changes will completely change the way a build works there has to be a way to compensate people for the MODS they used in their gear. There is no way that after the PA changes are done the gear/stats that I have on my toon are going to work like they do for my Live PA toon. So, my suggestion is to make a shop on Live that, takes a piece of gear and removes all it's mods and makes it BtA.

    Regarding PA - Laser Sword Set:

    1. Energy Unlock, this set needs one desperately.
    2. I think the idea of charges when it comes to Laser Sword is counter-intuitive and feels clunky. IMO the set should have taps and maintain powers. IE, something like Ego Weaponry/Ego Blade Frenzy (in terms of animations)

    Regarding PA - Toggles

    1. Reconstructive Circuits - make this power count as a Shoulder, Chest or Hand slot. I always found it annoying that it has to be on the chest slot.

    2. More Toggle powers are needed - if you plan on moving forward with the toggle mechanic then you must realize how restrictive it is. As such, more powers need to be added otherwise a FF PA toon will be almost like and AT which defeats the purpose of FF.

    3. Consider making a toggle power that works like Reconstructive Circuits but that's in fact a Boost power instead of Healing. As long as the power is active your other 2 Toggle powers do more dmg by a certain %.

    4. Is it possible to make Eye Beams and MG work together?

    Regarding PA - Non Toggles

    1. Chest Beam needs a buff and a range increase. The current dmg and range were limited because you could use 3x toggles. Since it's not working with toggles anymore it needs to be changed accordingly.

    2. Add Dr. Destroyer's Concussor Beams from Resistance as an alternative to the Toggle Concussor Beam but obviously more powerful (since it's not a toggle). This would be a really fun power to have as long as it's tire is high enough (maybe 3).

    3. Break down Fire All Weapons into separate Non Toggle powers (you can also keep the power itself).
    What I mean is that you could take the Hand Rockets (or whatever those are that appear around the hands) and make it a basically Rocket version of Dr. D's Concussor Beam (see point 2. for which version I'm talking about).
    Similarly you could do with the oversized MG that appears on the shoulder, it could be made into a Non Toggle version of it. This makes sense to me since non toggles by themselves should be stronger than a toggle power.

    4. Look into the Vehicle Weapons, many of those are toggles or charges that could be used to fill in and complement the PA set.

    5. Make/Fix Overdrive To actually scale off of INT or EGO or END not REC primarily.

    6. Change Concentration to make it also scale off off END as well
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Power armor is already super-clunky to work with, and all this is working to push it towards being totally unusable. Seriously, do a proper revamp or just remove the entire concept of toggles.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,951 Arc User
    Since you are focusing on PA next...

    PLEASE ADJUST OVERDRIVE TO SCALE ON END OR REC WHICHEVER IS HIGHER.

    That has annoyed so many to no end and it has been asked for constantly.

    Please do not make it interact with INT in any way. Moving it away from REC will hurt those who use it currently. It should definitely be END/REC scaling.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,531 Arc User
    Regarding laser sword in particular, I'd like to offer up the following general suggestions:

    - Split the laser sword subset off from the rest of power armor to make something entirely new. Both Concentration and Overdrive do nothing for the laser sword set because the mechanics are so vastly different. If that's not feasible, it's going to need its own dedicated EU and Form. Definitely.

    - Two possibilities for energy unlocks are 1) a new energy unlock that behaves similarly to Clinging Flames, except for Plasma Burn, or 2) allow the set to utilize Negative Ions somehow, so that it can borrow Ionic Reverberation and the laser sword set can enjoy a similar cross-framework synergy like that seen in heavy weapons + fire.

    - For forms, here's a few quick thoughts: 1) Its own, unique, straightforward-but-uninteresting form that stacks every time Plasma Burn is applied, or 2) Follow in Overdrive's footsteps and offer up something with broad cross-power appeal -- build stacks every time a combo is finished.

    - Plasma Burn as a mechanic. I know the first thought many have is to follow in the "rupture the bleeds" footsteps of other melee sets, and that's even how plasma cutter currently behaves. However, I'd like to instead suggest something different since there is already plenty of those--base the laser sword set on building and maintaining those stacks, as their fairly short duration could add emphasis to the player maintaining pressure on the target. Run around, use other things, or slack off too often and the stacks begin to drop off. Any abilities meant to interact with stacks could instead simply amplify their damage based on the number of stacks without consuming anything. Such abilities could instead be regulated by cooldown (~10-15 sec), so the user can still make mistakes by acting too early upon a sub-optimal number of stacks.

    - Laser Sword + the "Slash/Reaper's Caress" treatment. Depending on how intertwined you want the laser sword set's abilities to be, it might be worth considering having both a generic laser sword combo like slash as a generic, stand-alone option as well as a more intertwined (Reaper's Caress) version.

    - AoE: In particular, the laser sword set's AoE is incredibly poor and is going to need a lot of attention, if not a complete rework.

    That said, I'm VERY pleased to see laser sword finally getting some attention. Assembling weird combinations of cross-framework abilities just to make it work has gone on long enough.
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  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,531 Arc User
    edited November 2016

    Since you are focusing on PA next...

    PLEASE ADJUST OVERDRIVE TO SCALE ON END OR REC WHICHEVER IS HIGHER.

    That has annoyed so many to no end and it has been asked for constantly.

    Please do not make it interact with INT in any way. Moving it away from REC will hurt those who use it currently. It should definitely be END/REC scaling.

    In fairness, those builds are going to probably need to be reexamined anyway, since the whole power armor set is getting dumped on its head.

    Int/End scaling (whichever is higher) with Rec to a lesser degree is probably the best long-term route to take.
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  • notyuunotyuu Posts: 1,121 Arc User
    You want feedback/ideas for the lazer and particle sword sets.. alright, here ya go.
    • Give laser sword a 30/30/100% chance to apply plasma brun per combo slash
    • Needs a form that works off it [possibly an int/end based melee form stacking upon application of plasma/particle burn]
    • Lazer larat, would be a 50ft power with a small CD [~5 seconds] samll damage, but refreshes all stacks of plasma/particle burn on the target
    • An energy unlock, grants EoT whenever you rupture particle/plasma burn, duration scaling off number of stacks ruptured, strength based off end/int
    • Make light-wave slash actually worth a damn, make it a targetless 360 aoe, give it a particel resist debuff adv.
    • Remove the rng on particle accelerator instead making it into a thee hit combo [cleave animations will work fine] applying the acceleration buff on last hit.
    • Unified Theory applies a singular stack plasma/particle burn upon hit, increase the chance to reduce the CD on particle smash, reduce the amount is cuts it by
    • Increase the bonus damage on particle smash when you consume the three stack buff from unified theory, while also increasing the energy cost
    as for power armour powers.. I can think of a couple

    1: Defense Grid, work almost exactly like unbreakable but massively scaled up in power [think 10K at rank 3] with the trade-off being that it's cone based

    Theory on how it could be implemented: The player would have a visble buff on them and all the enemies effected by the cone would have a 1 second duration effect, refreshed per tick of the AD, provided they are hit by it, the effect wouldn't have a visble counter, the effect of the debuff on the enemies is that they deal -X damage [based on rank of the power] to targets with the buff aka the player casting the AD]

    2: Overlcock: An PA AO which reduces the energy cost, increases the damage and slighty buffs the crit chance of all PA abiltites.


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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,951 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    aesica said:

    Since you are focusing on PA next...

    PLEASE ADJUST OVERDRIVE TO SCALE ON END OR REC WHICHEVER IS HIGHER.

    That has annoyed so many to no end and it has been asked for constantly.

    Please do not make it interact with INT in any way. Moving it away from REC will hurt those who use it currently. It should definitely be END/REC scaling.

    In fairness, those builds are going to probably need to be reexamined anyway, since the whole power armor set is getting dumped on its head.

    Int/End scaling (whichever is higher) or Rec to a lesser degree is probably the best long-term route to take.
    Whilst that could be the case, I don't think it will be so severe, as some changes have been, because not many people use or dip into "New Laser Sword" anyway.

    As for the rest of PA, I do hope these changes basically mean "More blasty Particle Damage powers" when it comes to the addition of new powers.

    Also, they should consider bringing back a less crazy version of Quantum Stability Passive
  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 2,812 Cryptic Developer
    edited November 2016
    Re Overdrive: This unlock will likely lose its Int or End scaling to conform with the scaling from 'X stat or Recovery' formula. This energy unlock is NOT bugged, it intentionally has lower scaling on the int/end portion.​​
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,951 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    kaizerin said:

    Re Overdrive: This unlock will likely lose its Int or End scaling to conform with the scaling from 'X stat or Recovery' formula.​​

    *whispers* "Lose the Int..."

    I always thought it was weird that the scaling on END/INT portion was set so low. If REC has to be in there, it wouldn't hurt to have END be the other stat.

    Unless another energy unlock is created with END scaling and works with the new, revised Power Armor (and is given to Invincible AT)
  • xrazamaxxrazamax Posts: 979 Arc User
    kaizerin said:

    Some notes:

    The whole Unified Theory/Accelerator/Etc mechanic is likely going to be changed entirely for something a bit less convoluted.

    The Unified Theory buff currently buffs base damage, which is a dangerous thing to be doing and will definitely change/get removed entirely.

    Plasma Burn will likely get caught up to speed with Poison/Bleed.



    One thing I really want to ensure is that the set has a good range of animations, which right now isn't so much the case which makes it feel clunky.​​

    Well then, my work here is done :tongue:
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,531 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    kaizerin said:

    Re Overdrive: This unlock will likely lose its Int or End scaling to conform with the scaling from 'X stat or Recovery' formula. This energy unlock is NOT bugged, it intentionally has lower scaling on the int/end portion.​​

    The tooltip needs to be updated then, but I assume that's on the to-do list.

    Edit: That said, do consider removing one of them carefully. Overdrive is currently a very generic EU which, much like MSA, allows a lot of thematic or unusual edge case builds to work. It may not follow the "X or Recovery" formula, but it also doesn't follow the "bound to a specific framework" formula.

    kaizerin said:

    Re Overdrive: This unlock will likely lose its Int or End scaling to conform with the scaling from 'X stat or Recovery' formula.​​

    *whispers* "Lose the Int..."
    There's already a fair amount of EUs that scale with End.
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,951 Arc User
    aesica said:

    There's already a fair amount of EUs that scale on End.

    But for a set which has previously demanded either high energy pool or intelligence for lower costs...I'd like to see Overdrive working with the energy stats...but there could be a new EU or two coming out with this update, so we'll wait and see I guess.
  • dakrushmordakrushmor Posts: 592 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    kaizerin said:

    Re Overdrive: This unlock will likely lose its Int or End scaling to conform with the scaling from 'X stat or Recovery' formula. This energy unlock is NOT bugged, it intentionally has lower scaling on the int/end portion.​​

    No, better don't do this - my DPS use overinflated INT to fill Overdrive (and it's also two Necru regen, so don't suggest switch to Ego), because this EU is so versatile. And theme is high technology, so Intelligence is what is needed, not personal endurance, like for Energy Projector builds.

    Innate talent for PA - Mechanized - +12 INT, +12 STR. No END at all. Finally [Supernatural Power] does NOT fit the formula too. It uses REC only.

    Why should you lose, when you could win?
  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    gradii said:

    Changing Concentration to scale off END is not a very wise idea, nor is it neccesary. If a form scales on END it should be a new energy projector form.

    I said "also" scale off END not to be changed to "only" END. We need a form that scales off END since there is currently none.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,695 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    This is going to suck, I should had never been attached with my PA DPS...

    I FInd the point of killing tap/charge powers pointless and harmful for the set

    and the last thing I want is to lose Tactical Missiles from a freaking MISSILES Focused build
    kaizerin wrote: »
    Re Overdrive: This unlock will likely lose its Int or End scaling to conform with the scaling from 'X stat or Recovery' formula. This energy unlock is NOT bugged, it intentionally has lower scaling on the int/end portion.
    Kill INT scaling (which was never working) Keep REC and fix END​ scaling​​​
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Power armor has historically performed better than intended without actually exploiting any bugs; it's a problem with how the set is designed. Ignoring the balance questions, there should probably be a new missile-based toggle introduced (or else add an Automated Assault advantage to Tactical Missiles), as one of the obvious power armor themes is 'Missiles, Missiles, and more Missiles', and the only existing hand toggles are 50' range beams.
  • dakrushmordakrushmor Posts: 592 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    avianos said:


    Kill INT scaling (which was never working) Keep REC and fix END​ scaling​​​

    My DPS is working on INT OD scaling. Generally all of the other EU, are strong enough to power with just one SS. But when just keeping Rec scaling OD won't provide enough energy, especailly with prolongated maintains. So hafta take both REC & END, unlike for other EU. And DPS usually need Dex too & either Int or Ego.

    END is very useful now and is taken almost by each tank, while INT was seriously gimped when CD nerf occured. Or kill both END & INT scaling from OD, leaving Rec only, but this way let its effectiveness increase twice, to makeup my toons (about 100 rec & 500 int), and do OD provide same amount of energy.

    Of short, if My main will get less than 15 e per tick after revamp... Kill INT and there will be no more CO for me!
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    kaizerin said:

    A couple new toggle powers will be introduced to fill in the gaps and some powers may just be converted into a toggle (Tactical Missiles for example).

    Well that makes me sad. I personally like Tactical Missiles + Avenger Mastery, and once these changes go through that will no longer be viable. Far as I can tell, that combo is the only thing currently validating Avenger Mastery's existence.

    Is Power Armor going to retain its current level of dps, or is it going to end up with the standard level of dps that other powers have been getting balanced to?
    kaizerin said:


    The main goal here is to get Power Armor to function the way it was intended, and from there we can look into further changes to address any balance concerns.​​

    Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be what you'll be doing, since what you're suggesting in fact requires gutting several features of how Power Armor was intended to function. This seems more like a significant shift in the intended dynamic of the set.
    kaizerin said:

    The Chest Beam change was made to address that, but there are other charge powers that are causing this bug as well.

    Honestly I would actually prefer if you did the reverse of what you're trying to do with Chest Beam now. Instead of toggles being active making Chest Beam unusable, I would prefer if activating Chest Beam immediately turns off all toggles. The reasoning here is that if I'm in the middle of a fight and I need to knock something to save my butt, then I'll probably be dead by the time I turn my toggles off and the game registers that they're off. As it stands now, the change you're planning to make to Chest Beam makes it incredibly clunky to use if you also plan to use toggles. I'm guessing that what I propose is beyond the capabilities of the engine for whatever reason since if it was possible to make non-PA-toggle abilities turn off toggles, you would probably have already tried that since it's the obviously simpler solution.
  • draogndraogn Posts: 1,269 Arc User
    Since you're looking at laser swords, any chance dual wielding options could be added? *Similar to how they were added to ego blades perhaps
  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 2,812 Cryptic Developer
    edited November 2016
    draogn wrote: »
    Since you're looking at laser swords, any chance dual wielding options could be added? *Similar to how they were added to ego blades perhaps

    This would require a lot of fx work, so not likely.​​
  • dakrushmordakrushmor Posts: 592 Arc User

    Please do not make it interact with INT in any way. Moving it away from REC will hurt those who use it currently. It should definitely be END/REC scaling.

    Moving it away from INT will hurt those use it currently, and that's all of my DPS: Main, Magic One, Munitions One, Electric/Whirlwind one and PA one.
  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,690 Arc User
    I like the suggestion of Chest Beam activation turning off PA toggles! That makes a lot of sense to me. In fact, maybe there's a solution in there for the other charged attacks that are causing trouble. What if all charged attacks deactivated PA toggles?

    I still think the Overdrive's scaling with INT needs tweaking. I realize that it's WAI -- but still it's confusing as heck. It was years before I figured out that REC was a better stat for Overdrive. At the very least update the tool tip.

    Laser swords - I won't mind if the entire thing gets scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up. The melee part of the PA tree is confusing and has been a hot mess for along time. I still don't get how to use the Unified Field Theory buffs correctly.

    I like charged Tactical Missiles - they are useful outside of PA. So I'm not sure I want to see it turned into a toggle. But I don't know want to offer as an alternative suggestion :( .

    Reconstruct Circuits - This toggle heal has been a source of frustration for me for a long time. I have no ideal how to use it effectively in a battle. I'm almost wondering if it would be better as a burst self-heal like resurgence or something.
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,951 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    Request:

    When revising Laser Sword, please rip the weapon model from the Cybernetic Ninja Become Device and make it a usable skin for for all weapons (bar Heavy Weaponry, since it doesn't really fit but if it can be adjusted, go for it).

    Also have a look at the ways that the Cybernetic Ninja Become Device does PA and Laser Sword interactions.

    Please rip a number of its powers to be made usable by players outside of the device.
  • morigosamorigosa Posts: 709 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    I don't have much to say about PA slot powers - I've made two characters that use those, but neither has gotten above mid-20s.

    Laser Sword, on the other hand... Laser sword is interesting.

    There's the base combo power, which is high dps / high energy cost. Ideally that will stick around; it's an interesting niche that isn't covered by other melee powers. (...Though I'll note I'm being selfish here: I have one character who uses Laser Sword because she actually does have the energy for it, and I'd be rather disappointed if its damage got nerfed to the point that I'd be better off just going back to spamming dragon moves.)

    However, that energy cost _is_ very high, and the rest of the mini-set doesn't seem to work too well. My suggestion, then, would be to change the mini-set's mechanics to ones that stack up energy regeneration and/or cost discount, at the cost of being lower dps than the base combo. That would offer players a way to make Laser Sword work even at lower levels where you don't have large amounts of cost reduction & energy stats, with the need to cycle in secondary powers being reduced at higher levels (but, especially if you're using the particle acceleration advantage, that need for secondary supporting powers would never really go away).
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,531 Arc User
    gradii said:

    If you have a magic dps use conjuring..

    What about characters that use a technology power and a magic power--one for single target, one for aoe? Currently, Overdrive allows for flexibility in these sort of non-optimal, but highly theme-based builds by scaling with either of the two. That makes sense, because its current design is that of a general-purpose, when-nothing-else-fits EU. Removing either Int OR End will make it less suitable for this role.

    If it were up to me, I'd actually take it in the opposite direction, embrace its current role as a generic EU, and have it scale with the user's superstats.
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  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 2,812 Cryptic Developer
    Energy unlocks/forms/etc that lack adequate restrictions have the tendency of being the only ones players pick. This is something we are moving away from.​​
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    Doesn't Particle Accelerator basically look like a combo without actually being one? Why not just make it a combo? And then bump Laser Sword up and keep (or increase) its damage.

    Reconstruction Circuits: Make it a HoT like BCR (w/o the damage debuff). It's the coolest looking heal in the entire game and no one uses it because it can only be used with PA toggles.

    Double-Bladed Lightsaber, high-tier, maintained, 360 PBAoE. Melee cone attacks suck. Really, I would just like to see something on par with Sword Cyclone. It's basically the best farm / trash clear melee ability with nothing else even remotely comparing.

    Turn Unified Theory into an Active Offense on par with Nimble Mind. It's not like anyone uses it anyway.

    I do hope the laser sword revamp ends up more like bestial (OP) and not like heavy weapons (full of sadness).

    Edit:
    kaizerin wrote: »
    Energy unlocks/forms/etc that lack adequate restrictions have the tendency of being the only ones players pick. This is something we are moving away from.

    Well, duh. Look at how many set don't even have an energy unlock. Not everyone only picks powers from a single set. The number of cross-set friendly EUs is low. The whole point in going FF is to be able to make creative builds. Not every limitation is a good one.​​
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  • zamuelpwezamuelpwe Posts: 668 Arc User
    This is SFX as opposed to the usual balance concerns but I feel Laser Sword could stand to have an audio pass. If they reside on multiple channels, the "sword" sound needs to be lowered while the hum needs to be louder.

    While I agree that a combo based EU and or Form would be great things that the game arguably needs as a whole, they feel more like Might or Martial Arts options. Granted, it could be easily added to those sets since they'd be Tier 1 anyway and thus not prohibitive.
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  • h4forumsh4forums Posts: 171 Arc User
    despite my obvious bias i'd like to request that the laser sword advantage "particle acceleration" be unbounded. right now, it only rises in cost & damage to a certain point and then behaves as a normal power. i would like to see both the cost and damage continue to rise, such that by keeping up the combo you can reach impressive amounts of damage.
  • sergeantmahoff1sergeantmahoff1 Posts: 134 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    *Rubs hands together.* Aw heck yeah.
    The names don't matter as much as what the powers do.

    -Fusion Core [Energy Unlock]
    Everytime you cause or cauterize a plasma burn, you gain a stacking energy over time buff which scales with your endurance, and is also affected by recovery. Can stack up to three times, and ticks once every three seconds.

    -Magnetic Field Generator [Form]
    Whenever you cause or cauterize a plasma burn, the field generator in your laser sword grows stronger, gaining stacks of Electron Collission, which scales off your Dexterity or Recovery. (Same rules for all forms such as internal cooldown and stack limit applies to this form.)

    -Ion Thruster [Slotted Passive]
    Increases Particle damage, and grants a flat damage reduction based on super stats. Also has a 20% chance per attack to reduce the cost of all particle based (or laser sword, your pick) attacks by 3%. Stacks up to 3 times.

    -Laser Sword [Melee Damage - Combo - And AoE?!]
    1. First attack now has 25% chance to cause a plasma burn, as does the second, whilst the third has a 50% chance. These chances are doubled when upgraded by the magnetic field generator. (See? There's a reason for these names!)
    2. The first an second strike will have damage reduced, but will now have an 90 degree arc, allowing them to hit multiple targets, whilst the final strike wields the same damage and functionality.
    3. Particle Acceleration will now be more or less be the shredded of particle damage. A damage resistance debuff that also has a slightly higher debuff for particle damage.

    -Electron Strike [Melee Damage - Click - Single Target - Stun]
    With a swift strike of your blade, you stun your opponent. This is literally just supposed to be like headbutt and feint in every way excluding animation of course.

    -Magnetic Field Extension. [Melee Damage - Charge - Single Target - Knock to]
    I feel awful for the lack of detail, but this is more or less like the barbed lariat of plasma burns and particles. All the same functionalities, but aimed toward synergizing with laser sword.

    -Magnetic Field Cyclone [Melee AoE damage - Knockback]
    Again, I'm sorry for the lack of detail, but same as the last, this is basically a laser sword inspired version of lacerating cyclone or iron cyclone, with the functionalities aimed towards plasma burns and particles again.

    That's all I can think of for now, pleas don't be too harsh in judging it.
    And yes, I like the idea that all the powers for laser sword that don't come as attacks are upgrades and parts of the sword itself.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,531 Arc User
    kaizerin said:

    Energy unlocks/forms/etc that lack adequate restrictions have the tendency of being the only ones players pick. This is something we are moving away from.​​

    I see where you're coming from and agree there should never be "one energy unlock to rule them all" but I don't think that's really the case with generic EUs like Overdrive. It may be multi-framework friendly, but it does so at the cost of being inferior to the more tightly-bound theme EUs due to its ramp-up as well as its overall energy return. It also restricts the user to maintains.

    For example, a strictly lightning-based character could take Overdrive, but they'd be cheating themselves because Ionic Reverberation is so much better for lightning-based powers. But what if my theme demands lightning as well as guns? Or darkness?

    Generic EUs aren't the only ones players pick. They're the ones players pick when nothing else will work with their desired build, and in a game where one of the biggest selling features is "make the hero you want," allowing this sort of fallback option is extremely important.
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  • bluhmanbluhman Posts: 2,409 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    Agreed with aesica. Overdrive might be applicable on a lot of maintain-based builds, but in almost every case, it turns out the power you're using probably synergises better with a current EU (lightning arc? ion reverb! conflag? thermal! one-hundred hands? either steadfast OR shadow reverb!) Because Power Armor is already stacking multiple maintains/toggles on top of eachother, that is, in a sense, the biggest place is really shines.

    Otherwise it just fits a nice niche where it's 'workable, but suboptimal' if you're making a mixed-power build. MSA's sort of similar, though that has its own issue of really not having much to do with the real powerful attacks of the Gadgeteer set, but that's not what the thread's about.

    PA's weirdness in general makes it really hard to be creative with how you build a power armor, and part of me hopes stuff is added to allow it to mingle a bit, or at least offer some extra stuff to other builds. Specific stuff I'd love to see:
    • Give Reconstructive Circuits an advantage that allows it to operate more like a normal heal: Turns it into a maintain, heals more, but can't attack with other weapons. Maybe even a separate power?
    • In a similar vein, if there's any other single attack I'd love to see get a strong standalone attack alternative (i.e. how Chest Beam is versus Chest Laser), it's Eyebeams. Eye lasers are such a classic superhero trope, it's something that really should be applicable to a ton of situations. It'd be really neat if this hypothetical alternative power had advantages for tying into stuff like Might (i.e. Superman Eyebeams), Electricity (Cyclops Eyebeams?), tie it in to be a good utility power maybe.
    • Likely you're already aware of this, but I wrote some ideas down on how to re-envision laser-blades to get away from the weirdness of like three different attack paths. Since you're discussing different animations, though, I feel like the results could probably get even more cool than what's said here:
      http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1206136/powerset-boost-laser-swords
      The summary I'd say for the suggestion there is that laser sword becomes "single-blade, but higher base damage and costs, and replaces extra-damage ruptures for extra-energy ruptures"
    • That all aside, considering the infeasibility of making more toggle/non-toggle crossover powers, all I can really say is to flesh out each of the different slot options as viable choices. Plasma Beam, Concussor, and Tactical Missiles probably should all aim to have roughly the same effectiveness - maybe even balance them all around the same energy cost? And from there, they balance out in how their damage, range, targets hit, and other debuffs applied all interact.
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,695 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    kaizerin wrote: »
    Energy unlocks/forms/etc that lack adequate restrictions have the tendency of being the only ones players pick. This is something we are moving away from.

    OH COME ON, you can't do that
    this would kill builds with a lot of different powers that have no EU in Common

    Take my Sonic DPS for example, he is using Overdrive for Hypervoice along with Sonic Boom Generator and Power Chord (or my Pulse Beam Rifle character) if you are going to restrict Overdrive then congratulations, you ruined Crescendo


    If you want to less usage of Overdrive outside technology, MAKE MORE ENERGY UNLOCKS

    LOOK AT MSA, you made more themed EU and reduced the need of it, I haven't used MSA ona new character for a long time now

    and I EVEN REPLACED MSA for the corrected theme EU (Ice, Martial Arts, Sorcerry e.t.c)​​
    Post edited by avianos on
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  • dakrushmordakrushmor Posts: 592 Arc User
    edited November 2016
    Overdrive has circuitry depicted on icon, and thus should interact with INT. It's also primary stat of the Invincible. In case if someone needs scaling with END - then make one more EU, that would work just like Overdrive, but with END. But what's the point of it then? Different icon? l guess END working EU may be placed somewhere in Energy Projector category.

    But it also works in a similar way with magical cross-framework energy unlock - (CoAP), which benefits from Recovery only, so maybe makes sense to made OD benefit only from Rec too, and double amount point of REC generates.

    Edit: well, l just made END primary OD version here: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline/#/discussion/1206450/a-whole-lot-of-new-powers-2 and called it Powerdrive (there's also Hyperdrive in Force - mostly for charge ups). It seems as versatile as Overdrive for me, if not more.
    Post edited by dakrushmor on
  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,267 Arc User
    Be cautious with changing Overdrive. This is another situation where what was intended has been overtaken by what people did with the power. In the absence of other Energy Unlocks it is the go-to EU for toons of any kind with majority maintained powers.You may have added other power set specific EU powers in the recent revamps but I guarantee you the majority of builds haven't been changed away from what works to what's new. If you want to change the stat dependencies of OD to REC/END in respect of PA without breaking an awful lot of builds then you will need to replicate the existing INT/REC version of Overdrive somewhere else - in the Gadgeteering tree, maybe - and do nothing else with it. It works. Don't fix it.

    Chest Beam should be changed to be a "stored charge" power, rather like Energy Storm. Remove the tap functionality altogether. Charge it up and it remains charged until you're ready to fire it - however the charged power blocks the Chest slot, preventing use of other powers in that slot, and on firing consumes all stacks of Energy Unlocks the character currently has. That would make it an excellent opening attack and finisher but less of an endlessly spammable routine attack.
  • dakrushmordakrushmor Posts: 592 Arc User
    edited November 2016

    Be cautious with changing Overdrive. This is another situation where what was intended has been overtaken by what people did with the power. In the absence of other Energy Unlocks it is the go-to EU for toons of any kind with majority maintained powers.You may have added other power set specific EU powers in the recent revamps but I guarantee you the majority of builds haven't been changed away from what works to what's new. If you want to change the stat dependencies of OD to REC/END in respect of PA without breaking an awful lot of builds then you will need to replicate the existing INT/REC version of Overdrive somewhere else - in the Gadgeteering tree, maybe - and do nothing else with it. It works. Don't fix it.

    ^^^^^^^^
    Exactly. All my DPS are somewhat similar to the Hacker AT, depicted here:
    http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline/#/discussion/1206385/so-now-that-magic-got-a-whole-batch-of-powers-maybe-technology-is-next
    Including my Main. And l suppose not only my toons use somewhat similar builds, also a lot of others. It's OK with adding extra powers, that are more effective that those, currently in use - to force players switch to them. But if already existing ones losing their functionality. Then people got angry. And if they got angry - they leave the game, and you lose players as result.
  • criswolf09criswolf09 Posts: 730 Arc User
    My 2 cents:
    So here are some ideas for the powers of the Laser Sword mini set:
    1. Laser Edge: No changes needed
    2. Laser Sword: It is changed to Tier 0 from Tier 1, is changed to a close area attack wiht the following changes:
    a. First hit 10ft. reach 5 targets max 180 degree cone with 25% chance to apply Plasma Burn, Second hit 10ft. reach 5 targets max 180 degree cone with 25% chance to apply Plasma Burn, and Third hit 10ft reach 5 max targets 30 degree cone and 50% chance to apply Plasma Burn. Chance to apply Plasma Burn are double if the user is under the effects of Frenzy (from Aspect of the Machine) or Energized (from Energy Driver)
    b. Particle Acceleration changes to apply the Burn Through debuff to targets when finishing the combo.
    c. This power has its damage and energy cost recalculated to be like other AoE combos.

    3.New Power: Quantum Instability - Slotted Offensive Passive
    +Increases all of your melee technology damage powers and all other technology damage powers by a lesser degree. This effect scales with your super stats.
    +Grants a small power cost discount to your technology powers.
    +Provides a small damage buff resistance to all types of damage. This effect scales with your Intelligence.

    4. New Power: Energy Driver - Buff Form
    + Grants stacks of Energized everytime you apply, refresh or rupture stacks of the Plasma Burn debuff.
    + Everytime you gain a stack of this form you gain a small amount of energy. This can happen once every 4 seconds.
    + Energized increases your melee damage and damage resistance against all types by a flat 5%. This buff can stack up to 5 times.
    + This form scales with your Strength or Intelligence whichever is higher.

    5. New Power: Particle Stabilizer - Innate Passive Secondary Energy Unlock
    +Generates energy everytime you apply, refresh or rupture stacks of the Plasma Burn debuff and grants you an energy over time buff.
    +This energy over time buff cannot stack but applying the trigger effects will refresh the buff's duration.
    +The energy return of this power scales with your Intelligence or Strength whichever is higher but it is also affected by the Recovery stat.

    6. New Power: Cybernetic Taser - Melee Damage - Knock to; 25ft reach; 0-1.5 sec charge time
    +Tap: Single target particle damage and the target is knocked towards you. Chance to apply a stack of the Plasma Burn debuff
    +Charge: Increases the damage and energy cost of the tap effect. Increases the chance to apply Plasma Burn to 100%
    Advantage: Plasma Wound: Your taser burns your target causing burning wounds to open, applying stacks of Plasma Burn over time.
    Advantage: Depleting Taser: Fully charging this power will refresh your Burn Through debuff.
    Advantage: Plasma Vulnerability: Fully charging this power will refresh your stacks of Plasma Burn.
    Advantage: Work Up: Applies the Restoration heal over time buff. Heals additional damage if you are below 20% of your health.

    7. New Power: Plasma Surge - Active Offense
    +Increases damage of all your attacks for a brief moment.
    +Grants a small amount of power cost discount.
    + Grants stacks of the Energized buff, depending the rank of this power and Energy Driver must be active to this effect to happen.
    + Can be used while under the effects of Holds or Roots
    -This power is considered to be an Active Offense. Activating this power imposes a cooldown of 30 seconds on all other Active Offenses.

    8. New Power: Particle Neutralizer - Threat Wipe; 50ft sphere; Affects foe that is not destructible (10 max) 2 min recharge
    +Wipes all threat from nearby targets.
    +Places the user in stealth for a short moment.
    Advantage: Stunning Surge: Stuns closer targets before placing you in stealth.

    9.New Power: Wrist Cannon - Ranged Attack - 50ft range - Untargeted Attack
    +Single target Particle damage
    +Deals continous damage to the target every 0.5 seconds and doesn't count as a Hand Slot power but roots the user in place. Each pulse of this power has a 15% chance to apply Plasma Burn.
    Advantage: Particle Cannon: Changes the mode operation of this power to now use a Cannon and require a hostile target to function but the damage it now deals is every 0.25 seconds and the chances to apply Plasma burn are reduced to 5% per tick.

    10. Particle Accelerator: Rework:
    +Single target Particle Damage
    +Stuns the target
    No longer applies Accelerator
    Advantage: Concussion: This power now applies Trauma to affected targets.

    11. Particle Smash: Rework:
    +Ranged increased to 50ft with a 15ft sphere. No longer applies or refreshes Plasma Burn
    +Applies the Burn Through debuff to the primary target and Plasma Burn to close targets.
    -15 seconds (recharge down from 30)

    12. Unified Theory: Rework:
    No longer has a 9 second mandatory charge time nor depends in the defunct Accelerator buff. Instead has a 2 second charge time and must be fully charged.
    +New Advantage: Empowered Particles: Unified Theory will deal 30% additional base damage to targets affected by Plasma Burn.
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    For toggles I'd like at the very least 1 beam weapon per slot, and 1 projectile weapon per slot.
    That means adding a beam chest toggle, and a projectile weapon hand toggle.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,999 Arc User
    I suppose making the sword powers be able to function as a hand slot would be too OP?
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  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    I suppose making the sword powers be able to function as a hand slot would be too OP?

    More like it would gimp Laser Sword for anyone who wants to use those powers as the focus of their build. The damage would be tanked so it wouldn't be super OP when used with other PA toggles. Anyone with a laser sword build will likely be PO'd about their build being completely broken. The end result would be people getting bitter about feeling like they need to go Massacre just to have a high dps melee build.​​
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  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    aiqa said:

    For toggles I'd like at the very least 1 beam weapon per slot, and 1 projectile weapon per slot.
    That means adding a beam chest toggle, and a projectile weapon hand toggle.

    This, please!
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  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,267 Arc User
    Re: Laser Sword...

    I use this set and it's fun but unwieldy. I also think that the concept of a Melee DPS building damage by standing in close proximity to an End-Game boss and building power through fiddly and slow attacks is now a little outdated, particularly in things like TA and Cosmics. The risk of doing so without a tank's defences is too high, and you can't really build a decent Laser Sword build and invest in that as well. You need to build up debuffs, jump in, hit hard, get out again.

    I think there's an an opportunity to rework the powers into part of a proper set, based on something which is really strong in CO's villain NPCs and Silver Age comics, but not really available to the players of CO; Future Weapons. All manner of high-tech and retro weapon skins could be used.

    This would be based around moderate damage ranged sci-fi weapons a la VIPER to build DoT effects/DR debuffs - make these Particle Burn, rather than Plasma Burn, to keep the synergies within the set - and then closing to melee range to use the Laser Sword powers. Those remain single target, high-damage/high risk, because of the proximity needed.

    Reduce the Laser Sword set to Laser Sword (melee combo, stacking damage per hit), Lightwave Slash (basic fast AoE, applies Particle Burn), Plasma Cutter (single target charged attack, adds additional damage depending on number of Particle Burn stacks on the target), and rename Particle Smash to Particle Grenade (does AoE Damage and additional damage depending on Particle Burn stacks). Damage and Energy Cost should be reduced to a level consistent with other sets (Claws, etc). You probably wouldn't need a bespoke EU (MSA would work with a lunge like Lightspeed Dash), Forms would be covered off by something like of a bespoke version of Form of the Tempest (bonus damage per crit, focused on Melee) and the existing ones which work with Ranged damage.

    Add in some proper ranged energy pistols, focused on blast/debuffs rather than those Gadgeteer ones, and a Brickbuster style debuff heavy cannon and you'd have a set worth playing and (probably) a new AT, to boot.



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