Incendiary is a DoT. DoTs traditionally don't work with Def Pen. Have you tried Railgun, Heavy Cannon or the built in weapon?
No mods at all: Your Repeating Pulse Laser deals 80 (124) Particle Damage to Mega-Destroid.
Two Enemy Hull Scanner 9's: Your Repeating Pulse Laser deals 104 (160) Particle Damage to Mega-Destroid.
Testing on mark one bike now...
No mods at all: Your Repeating Pulse Laser deals 74 (114) Particle Damage to Mega-Destroid.
Two Enemy Hull Scanner 9's: Your Repeating Pulse Laser deals 103 (160) Particle Damage to Mega-Destroid.
Also can I request that the boost does atleast something while in combat, it really takes a lot of fun away and kinda ends up being annoying while using a vehicle in combat.
Vehicles being stronger than individual people, or not, is a purely theme thing even if considering it is a superhero game. Since there is no thing like consistent power level in comic books. A truly "powered" hero is likely to be stronger than a machine, but comic books also have many non-powered characters, who aren't as durable and armored as a combat vehicle.
Personally I think vehicles should have potential for equality in power (but very specialised) when someone builds them for it, but not straight out of the box. If there is one place in the game where trinity might be used and actually be beneficial, it's vehicles.
Large part of vehicles overperforming heroes is actually not vehicle power level, but enemy AI not knowing how to react to them at their 100+ feet attack range.
Also, if Kinetic Dampening Field is to be nerfed, vehicles need other defence options (as it is now pretty much the only serious one for them). They actually need some even without doing anything with Kinetic Field.
Ok, so I took a stock Fire Ant out to visit Kiga and I can still spam IR2 all day long, completely hold aggro, and was actually asking people to come out and try to take aggro on the doggies away from me. It didn't happen. The targets have been cut to 5 and...oh look, 5 targets. I'm still consistantly breaking the AI with the range and controlling the entire fight with the aggro gen.
Turning this entire section red as this is a BUG and needs to be fixed. You guys are fixing so many other vehicle bugs/exploits and you're not looking at this? Come on.
Also, this doesn't seem to make the powers that aren't GP, Plasma, Railgun, or IR2 any "better." Now don't get me wrong, I think it's a complete and utter mistake to make the vehicles equal or greater than the SUPERHEROES but if people are expected to shell out cash for them like ships in STO...they shouldn't suck rocks through a paper straw either.
Exactly. There's -still- no better weapon choices than the above. Yes the absurd overpowered weapons have -finally- been brought into line (short of IR), but they're still on an entirely different tier than every other vehicle weapon available.
Also, request:
The Auction House is in DEPERATE need of a 'vehicles and mods' tab or something of the sort. Right now, because of all the MANY different names and everything else for vehicles, the ONLY way to actually search for them is to know the exact name you're looking for in the first place.
And with the Wiki gone, that's a royal pain in the rear, to put it nicely.
Exactly. There's -still- no better weapon choices than the above. Yes the absurd overpowered weapons have -finally- been brought into line (short of IR), but they're still on an entirely different tier than every other vehicle weapon available.
I'm not saying I agree with this philosophy, but I understand why Incendiary Round, Railgun, and Gravity Pulse, etc. are so much better than the other vehicle weapons. The former are only available as the ultimate prizes via lockboxes or the Drifter. It's the Q-store weapons that are subpar. I kind of doubt they consider this a bug.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Maybe the Old ARMS building, which is now occupied the Q Exchange. Cut it half and paste the 'Garage' there, with Vehicles on display.
Actually, I think that's a much better use of the space than the Q exchange it is now... especially since I can access the Q exchange anywhere :P
You can make it a vehicle store where you can display the "latest and greatest" vehicles as well as tables/mechanic spots akin to the old crafting ones to make modifications and the like... or something like that.
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
Any chance we could get some Mark III's in the questionite store for the exotic/rare weaponry like Gravity Pulse? Better still, could you make a vendor that required you to trade the previous rank (at an elevated price perhaps) to pick up the next rank?
Likewise this may be just me, but is 300k questionite a tad too much for most of the mark 3's? They would seem more in line with Vigilante Gear at ~250k then at near 300, personally.
Better still, could we get a dev created (or approved) list of what powers should be used for what situations? So the DPS vehicles would be using weapon X and Y, tanks vehicles would be using A and B, etc. As it stands, most people just generally ignore certain weapons and buffing them (or at least letting us know intent) will help to let everyone get a better understanding of what or where we're looking at.
Also, this may be an important suggestion:
Add a powerhouse dummy outside somewhere to test weapons and such without needing to go into content.
Current option for Melees in Vehicle oriented combat, if they don't want to use a Vehicle:
And mostly for ranged also...
I'm being serious. So far both flight related missions have cleverly hidden ways to be useful using melee, non-flight toons. The Mega D and scoop defense in Sky Command and the Core Tentacles in Lemurian Invasion. I just hope that tradition continues. Better yet, improves.
Hi team, almost all this sounds very reasonable. Sure, some weapons got nerfed, but they're the right ones IMHO, because I used exactly all of those in the exact manner why they're getting nerfed. However, other aspects of them are getting fixed, like how all versions of the Plasma Beam share the same stacks of Plasma Shear, which just makes more sense. Then there's the kits, so net-net, it's an adjustment that makes these things more believable.
Vehicles now have two speeds: Combat Speed and Top Speed. Like travel powers, while you are firing weapons, your vehicle is restricted to Combat Speed. A few seconds after leaving combat, your Vehicle will return to Top Speed. There is no ramp-up time to use Top Speed, except immediately following combat.
All Vehicles moving at Combat Speed have improved handling (Traction and Friction). Hover Tanks also gain a faster turn rate while at Combat Speed.
Combat Speed is activated by firing a Vehicle weapon.
In this build, Prototype Hawkwings do not yet have the Combat Speed adjustment. Expect this in an upcoming build.
For the Heavy Tanks, like the Desert Fox that I own, this makes sense.
For Flyers and Jetbikes, these take away from their authenticity and playability. They're supposed to be fast-moving jets that chase down enemy fighters in dogfights. Based on what's described here, they'll feel very weird with these changes.
The scenarios where I believe that effect will be felt will be in the Lemurian Invasion dogfights in particular, where you have to take out the enemy Exocets. The look & feel of that fight is all Top Gun Danger Zone at high speeds.
Moreover, that speed change will effect certain mods, such as the speed dodge mods already mentioned in a previous post, but also close-range weapon/healing mods like Gravity Pulse and IIRC Healing Drones, which need to be placed.
Thus, these comments are not out of self-interest, but I think there is a ludonarrative disconnect as well as unintended side effects. For Cryptic North and testers, please consider these issues in your playtests.
P.S. These speed rules remind me of Warhammer 40,000. It makes sense there, maybe not here.
1: the tank looks like a starwars ambulance or something
I thought it was a fire truck.
For space fires.
EDIT:
Also, I hate to be the jerk, but I'm just going to express how I feel.
We determined a while back that vehicles were nothing like what we wanted them to be. I highly doubt most players were screaming for non-cosmetically-customizable hover-stuff and Star Wars speeders. We won't be getting ground vehicles (which is what most people wanted) and we can't even modify the color scheme of these things. Anyone with a decent freeform can out-perform even the best vehicles.
So why do we keep coming to this? Can we focus on something else after this, please? Can this be like, 'it' for the vehicles for about another year at least?
Vehicle system simply needs to be completed. As good or bad as one would like to see vehicles, they must be brought in line and finished before moving to other things.
Otherwise it will forever remain incomplete, and CO doesn't really need yet another incomplete system.
Having slots to place various weapons and system mods was a good idea. It gives a good customization of how the vehicle operates (you can build it for more firepower, more speed, more defense, more healing, mix of the above, etc).
It's obvious that they looked at STO for inspiration on vehicles. Starships work quite well there. The mod system is definitely ripped out of STO.
But it was an epic fail to not bring over cosmetic customization as well. At the very least, let us do color swaps.
You came to the conclusion about vehicles but some of us do enjoy vehicles. I remember a thread gradii posted that even those who are normally on the "don't nerf anything" side agreed it would only have been good for a minority. I'd say about 20-30% of the player base at least enjoy vehicles, this update is to make vehicles more enjoyable for everyone.
That was just my feelings on the matter- but seriously, don't sit here and tell me you wanted non-customizable be-critters and you're satisfied with what we got. THAT is the problem.
Not to say I want them throwing to much time into vehicles, but some balances and buffs to vehicles had been overdue since introduction.
Edt: And Yes, I am aware of some people who hate vehicles, some even with a passion, I'd also say those are a smaller minority than those of us who enjoy them, since most without vehicles don't tend to lean either way.
I don't 'hate them'. I don't 'hate' Pork Chops, but if they're going to be bland and flavorless, then I'd rather just not eat Pork Chops and focus on something else. Make sense?
So why do we keep coming to this? Can we focus on something else after this, please? Can this be like, 'it' for the vehicles for about another year at least?
Barring the ability to customize their look, I'm with you on this. It's time for a more substantive piece of content. I accept that this will help monetize the game and keep it going, and I hope it does well, but with the exception of F&I, we haven't had a major piece of new playable content since Fatal Error, and that was how many months ago? Close to six?
we keep coming back to customisation or rather the lack of it - even allowing players to simply change the base color (keeping the pattern the same) would be a step in the right direction.
I did post a suggestion some time ago that I felt should be do-able and would bring money into the game:
I know this is something that has been asked for quite a few times but I have an idea how it could be done and monetized.
Something that has been asked for a lot by the playerbase is being able to change the color of vehicles. This is something that is available in other PW games for mounts/vehicles.
A way it may be accomplished in Champions Online that would give the players what they want but still make money for the company is to add to each vehicle "paint/color slots" (along the same lines as mod and weapon slots) dependent on how many color zones each vehicle has. These slots could be "colored" using paint pots available from the zen store (perhaps a pack of 4 random color paints for 100z or 2 specific color for 100z - specific colors limited to primary colors/tones red, green, blue, white, black etc). I appreciate this would mean some rework of the existing vehicles but given what has been done in other PW games for existing vehicles/mounts it doesnt seem out of the question.
Any thoughts?
In addition to this in the same thread someone suggested allowing picking of emblems from the standard available - or even selling new emblem packs which would again add a monetary income to justify the development time/cost
So why do we keep coming to this? Can we focus on something else after this, please? Can this be like, 'it' for the vehicles for about another year at least?
This normally isn't my style but, for you, I will make an exception. Since I can see no actual benefit to this ongoing debate I'm ending it. It's clear that continuing this will only allow you to further mislabel, relabel, and spin which will have no real benefits to the PTS process and will simply clutter up the thread needlessly. Before I go, some minor points.
-"Froob" is a term born from Anarchy Online(A game I played at launch) and in no way, shape, or form, is a negative term.
-"Trap" means this was a doomed endeavor from the beginning.
-Attacks on my percieved personal faults, assumed(made up) character, and such will prove fruitless because they are made under the assumption that your opinion holds enough value to me to damage me in some way.
I would like to take a moment to acknowledge my friends were right and even attempting this debate was pointless. I'm sorry for those who had to read this and it will take up no more precious time in this thread.
So yeah, the end. Nothing to see here people. Move along. :cool:
I don't mind this patch so much. I do like the Mammoth.
However, you're again repeating a pattern that has made me scale way back on acquiring anything except through casual gameplay. The pattern is 1.) Cryptic releases new overpowered Thing, accessible only via key purchases or Zen, 2.) Cryptic profits from sales of Thing for as long as possible, 3.) Cryptic significantly nerfs Thing 3-6 months later.
Let's look at how often this occurred:
+ Prototype Vehicles
+ Legacy Devices
+ Justice Gear (perhaps not nerfed directly, but via DR changes on dodge and critical chances)
+ Vehicle Weapons (Gravity Pulse, Incendiary Round, Plasma Beam etc.)
This is off the top of my head and probably not an exhaustive list. It has happened too frequently to believe it's not somewhat intentional, IMHO. If things can't be relatively balanced before offering them via microcommerce, an ethical company should find a way to compensate buyers of virtual items if they are subsequently nerfed. Continually burning "good" customers is not a very good long-term strategy.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
The Mammoth reminds me of something I've wondered about of late. Would there be any market for team transport vehicles? Just something to move groups around in, not fight from. Think Quinjet and the like. It would have to be relatively cheap since it wouldn't have a combat role. Sort of a team "Become" device.
Folks aren't looking at the speed drop from a balance (and fairness) perspective. Being able to dip in and out of enemy range removes any threat you might face while in a vehicle. The combat speed drop is something players have faced since the game's launch, I don't see why vehicles get to be exempt from this.
There is still the problem with vehicle range trumping the vast majority of open world combat. It's not terribly balanced or sporting that you can nuke enemies and they can't attack back.
Knock is deadly to everyone, not just vehicles. We have no way to break out of Knocks and no reliable way to defend against it.
Vehicles get *a lot* of resistance to damage, even the supposedly squishy jet bikes. And this is without considering the out of line resistance shield power.
Makes me sad. I hate vehicles since they're just fancy Become devices, which I also hate. Not being able to do basic things like move powers around on the hot bar does not help.
WTB hot bar for becomes that doesn't mess up your character's power tray and actually allows you to move powers around.
Folks aren't looking at the speed drop from a balance (and fairness) perspective. Being able to dip in and out of enemy range removes any threat you might face while in a vehicle. The combat speed drop is something players have faced since the game's launch, I don't see why vehicles get to be exempt from this.
Which is why the UNTIL Hover Disc should be the standard for travel powers. Yeah, I know, bla bla bla break the servers bla bla enemy AI bla PvP.
In my honest opinion, I would rather have the vehicles be costumizable travel powers rather than fancy becomes. After all, you see heroes in comic books travel via vehicles, but you don't often see them FIGHTING in said vehicles.
Comments
No mods at all: Your Repeating Pulse Laser deals 80 (124) Particle Damage to Mega-Destroid.
Two Enemy Hull Scanner 9's: Your Repeating Pulse Laser deals 104 (160) Particle Damage to Mega-Destroid.
Testing on mark one bike now...
No mods at all: Your Repeating Pulse Laser deals 74 (114) Particle Damage to Mega-Destroid.
Two Enemy Hull Scanner 9's: Your Repeating Pulse Laser deals 103 (160) Particle Damage to Mega-Destroid.
Also can I request that the boost does atleast something while in combat, it really takes a lot of fun away and kinda ends up being annoying while using a vehicle in combat.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Personally I think vehicles should have potential for equality in power (but very specialised) when someone builds them for it, but not straight out of the box. If there is one place in the game where trinity might be used and actually be beneficial, it's vehicles.
Large part of vehicles overperforming heroes is actually not vehicle power level, but enemy AI not knowing how to react to them at their 100+ feet attack range.
Also, if Kinetic Dampening Field is to be nerfed, vehicles need other defence options (as it is now pretty much the only serious one for them). They actually need some even without doing anything with Kinetic Field.
Turning this entire section red as this is a BUG and needs to be fixed. You guys are fixing so many other vehicle bugs/exploits and you're not looking at this? Come on.
Exactly. There's -still- no better weapon choices than the above. Yes the absurd overpowered weapons have -finally- been brought into line (short of IR), but they're still on an entirely different tier than every other vehicle weapon available.
Also, request:
The Auction House is in DEPERATE need of a 'vehicles and mods' tab or something of the sort. Right now, because of all the MANY different names and everything else for vehicles, the ONLY way to actually search for them is to know the exact name you're looking for in the first place.
And with the Wiki gone, that's a royal pain in the rear, to put it nicely.
Razira's Primus Database Page
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I'm not saying I agree with this philosophy, but I understand why Incendiary Round, Railgun, and Gravity Pulse, etc. are so much better than the other vehicle weapons. The former are only available as the ultimate prizes via lockboxes or the Drifter. It's the Q-store weapons that are subpar. I kind of doubt they consider this a bug.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Actually, I think that's a much better use of the space than the Q exchange it is now... especially since I can access the Q exchange anywhere :P
You can make it a vehicle store where you can display the "latest and greatest" vehicles as well as tables/mechanic spots akin to the old crafting ones to make modifications and the like... or something like that.
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
Likewise this may be just me, but is 300k questionite a tad too much for most of the mark 3's? They would seem more in line with Vigilante Gear at ~250k then at near 300, personally.
Better still, could we get a dev created (or approved) list of what powers should be used for what situations? So the DPS vehicles would be using weapon X and Y, tanks vehicles would be using A and B, etc. As it stands, most people just generally ignore certain weapons and buffing them (or at least letting us know intent) will help to let everyone get a better understanding of what or where we're looking at.
Also, this may be an important suggestion:
Add a powerhouse dummy outside somewhere to test weapons and such without needing to go into content.
I'm being serious. So far both flight related missions have cleverly hidden ways to be useful using melee, non-flight toons. The Mega D and scoop defense in Sky Command and the Core Tentacles in Lemurian Invasion. I just hope that tradition continues. Better yet, improves.
I must admit I take issue with 1 issue, though:
For the Heavy Tanks, like the Desert Fox that I own, this makes sense.
For Flyers and Jetbikes, these take away from their authenticity and playability. They're supposed to be fast-moving jets that chase down enemy fighters in dogfights. Based on what's described here, they'll feel very weird with these changes.
The scenarios where I believe that effect will be felt will be in the Lemurian Invasion dogfights in particular, where you have to take out the enemy Exocets. The look & feel of that fight is all Top Gun Danger Zone at high speeds.
Moreover, that speed change will effect certain mods, such as the speed dodge mods already mentioned in a previous post, but also close-range weapon/healing mods like Gravity Pulse and IIRC Healing Drones, which need to be placed.
Thus, these comments are not out of self-interest, but I think there is a ludonarrative disconnect as well as unintended side effects. For Cryptic North and testers, please consider these issues in your playtests.
P.S. These speed rules remind me of Warhammer 40,000. It makes sense there, maybe not here.
More action at Champions Online Comics @ http://co-comics.webs.com
Vehicles should complement characters not replace them.
UNTIL Hover Disc should be the standard for all travel powers.
Slowing vehicles down in combat is icky.
Standing around looking pretty is exactly the role of melee in SC and at least half of LI.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
1: the tank looks like a starwars ambulance or something
2: Nerfing incendry rounds to 5 taargets per shot reduces it's already limited effectiveness by too much, change to 10 target limit
3: i hope there are going to be MK3 versions of the non q-sote vec weapons
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
I thought it was a fire truck.
For space fires.
EDIT:
Also, I hate to be the jerk, but I'm just going to express how I feel.
We determined a while back that vehicles were nothing like what we wanted them to be. I highly doubt most players were screaming for non-cosmetically-customizable hover-stuff and Star Wars speeders. We won't be getting ground vehicles (which is what most people wanted) and we can't even modify the color scheme of these things. Anyone with a decent freeform can out-perform even the best vehicles.
So why do we keep coming to this? Can we focus on something else after this, please? Can this be like, 'it' for the vehicles for about another year at least?
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Otherwise it will forever remain incomplete, and CO doesn't really need yet another incomplete system.
Also, apparently someone is buying vehicles.
It's obvious that they looked at STO for inspiration on vehicles. Starships work quite well there. The mod system is definitely ripped out of STO.
But it was an epic fail to not bring over cosmetic customization as well. At the very least, let us do color swaps.
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Drag and drop in the PQ to change people to the other team, works very unreliable.
That was just my feelings on the matter- but seriously, don't sit here and tell me you wanted non-customizable be-critters and you're satisfied with what we got. THAT is the problem.
I don't 'hate them'. I don't 'hate' Pork Chops, but if they're going to be bland and flavorless, then I'd rather just not eat Pork Chops and focus on something else. Make sense?
Barring the ability to customize their look, I'm with you on this. It's time for a more substantive piece of content. I accept that this will help monetize the game and keep it going, and I hope it does well, but with the exception of F&I, we haven't had a major piece of new playable content since Fatal Error, and that was how many months ago? Close to six?
I did post a suggestion some time ago that I felt should be do-able and would bring money into the game:
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=230841
In addition to this in the same thread someone suggested allowing picking of emblems from the standard available - or even selling new emblem packs which would again add a monetary income to justify the development time/cost
@Liath | My PRIMUS Page | Altaholics | New Vehicle Models | New Emblems | Flag Tights
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The obvious reason. They are making money.
This normally isn't my style but, for you, I will make an exception. Since I can see no actual benefit to this ongoing debate I'm ending it. It's clear that continuing this will only allow you to further mislabel, relabel, and spin which will have no real benefits to the PTS process and will simply clutter up the thread needlessly. Before I go, some minor points.
-"Froob" is a term born from Anarchy Online(A game I played at launch) and in no way, shape, or form, is a negative term.
-"Trap" means this was a doomed endeavor from the beginning.
-Attacks on my percieved personal faults, assumed(made up) character, and such will prove fruitless because they are made under the assumption that your opinion holds enough value to me to damage me in some way.
I would like to take a moment to acknowledge my friends were right and even attempting this debate was pointless. I'm sorry for those who had to read this and it will take up no more precious time in this thread.
So yeah, the end. Nothing to see here people. Move along. :cool:
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
I'm eager to just break away from Magic for healing. Science is perfectly capable of creating viable healing powers too!
And I will always be @DZPlayer122.
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If that new Mammoth turns out to be a lockbox....Im going to be pissed..I hope it be a c-store one. Love spaceships.
Also I do like the new upgrade just we need a function to allow us to chnage color of the tanks and what it looks like etc.
VARIANT
"Nearly all men can withstand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Abraham Lincoln-
However, you're again repeating a pattern that has made me scale way back on acquiring anything except through casual gameplay. The pattern is 1.) Cryptic releases new overpowered Thing, accessible only via key purchases or Zen, 2.) Cryptic profits from sales of Thing for as long as possible, 3.) Cryptic significantly nerfs Thing 3-6 months later.
Let's look at how often this occurred:
+ Prototype Vehicles
+ Legacy Devices
+ Justice Gear (perhaps not nerfed directly, but via DR changes on dodge and critical chances)
+ Vehicle Weapons (Gravity Pulse, Incendiary Round, Plasma Beam etc.)
This is off the top of my head and probably not an exhaustive list. It has happened too frequently to believe it's not somewhat intentional, IMHO. If things can't be relatively balanced before offering them via microcommerce, an ethical company should find a way to compensate buyers of virtual items if they are subsequently nerfed. Continually burning "good" customers is not a very good long-term strategy.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
There is still the problem with vehicle range trumping the vast majority of open world combat. It's not terribly balanced or sporting that you can nuke enemies and they can't attack back.
Knock is deadly to everyone, not just vehicles. We have no way to break out of Knocks and no reliable way to defend against it.
Vehicles get *a lot* of resistance to damage, even the supposedly squishy jet bikes. And this is without considering the out of line resistance shield power.
Makes me sad. I hate vehicles since they're just fancy Become devices, which I also hate. Not being able to do basic things like move powers around on the hot bar does not help.
WTB hot bar for becomes that doesn't mess up your character's power tray and actually allows you to move powers around.
Which is why the UNTIL Hover Disc should be the standard for travel powers. Yeah, I know, bla bla bla break the servers bla bla enemy AI bla PvP.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009