So...you are saying that the reward structure needs to get fixed...and yet you will not let the devs deal with one of the biggest aspect of the reward structure to fix the whole system until they get the system fixed?!? What the hell kind of logic is that?
Yours, apparently. As I'm not saying anything of the kind.
And really, what you are saying is that all queues should be as short and pay as much as CCA...because you damn well know that reducing CCA to play what a 15 min timed queue does per min spent in the queue will result in a firestorm hotter than anything this forum has ever seen. Not even the fiasco of DR would compared to them reducing these super over paying queues to pay what they SHOULD be.
Zactly! Which is precisely why I suggested that just removing the Choice Marks need some thinking-thru. My argument has continually been, that, ideally, the reward structure for the queues should be homogenized, and various other issues be fixed with it. Basically, they would need a major balance pass (so that, say, getting Elite Marks for the Tzenkethi rep isn't much harder than getting Borg Neural Implants). This would, however, require a major rework -- which isn't the business-opportune thing to do (not to mention the sh*tstorm that would ensue, as you indicated, for *any* change made to them) . So, I've argued that, in absentia of a better plan, the Choice Marks are a relative cheap 'solution' to allow the players to get Elite Marks for every rep, each with about as much effort as the other; and, thus, that just removing the Choice Marks isn't a particular good idea, IMHO.
I also said, that 'if they want to start somewhere, not having CCA pay out 17x as much as elsewhere would be a good start -- regardless of Choice Marks.' That would likely also evoke a firestorm, but yes, homogenizing at least the queue rewards would be a start, if they were ever serious about rewards not being so askew.
Those who are suggesting to remove the choice Marks from various queues/RA's, please consider the reason they were instituted to begin with: ppl didn't want to play the appropriate queues and/or found some too tedious and/or couldn't find enough folks to get the queues to pop, etc. For instance, there's a whole thread about the Tzenkethi queues being unplayable (I'm not saying they are, but ppl are confronted with their reality nonetheless); and the Tzenkethi BZ is broken (as for the ability to finish it). So, in a way, the choice Marks are Cryptic's lazy way, to put it irreverently, to 'fix' the situation with numerous queues.
So, until such time Cryptic actually fixes all queues, I say choice Marks should stay.
I want to echo on this thought. Before Season 13 happened, I could hop into any advanced queue and be reasonably sure it pops within 5, maybe 10 minutes. Hell, even Elites popped every now and then. Sure, it wasn't perfect, it wasn't nearly as busy as, say, before Delta Rising, but you could be reasonably sure you wouldn't have to wait until you're gray in order to play basically anything.
This is absolutely not what were seeing today. Hell, I waited roughly 10 minutes in CSA/KSA/ISA queue the other day, and ISA only started when I asked a friend to queue up with me. What happened? Well, I wrote a pretty popular thread about a year ago - all of the forumites obviously screamed how I'm just dumb and Cryptic decided to do fk all, but here we are, discussing empty queues all over again.
I absolutely agree with you that the queue design has just become lazier over the time. I also agree with others that having RAs choice of all marks is very bad move from Cryptic (Remember when Borg RA just rewarded omega and Tholian RA only Nukara and Romulan? and you actually had to chase them, they weren't permaqueues? And the game wasn't unplayable back then, was it?).
However, what I'm trying to say is that neither of those is the core problem behind player exodus from all sorts of queues. Rather, it's Cryptic trying to decide our fun for us. It's not rewards that ultimately keeps ppl playing queues, something both Sea and you, as well as myself proved. You can only do content so much until you have earned absolutely everything possible. And it's not only the fault of timegated queues too - when you're having a blast otherwise, you won't even notice timegates (at least when they are not screaming into your face as is the case with the new Dranuur queue). However, when Cryptic decided to nerf the hell out of our own, buildable fun, we got stuck in the place we are. I think Nirett explained it the best when he said...
Before S13 it was like having a really nice car. You only really needed it to get to work or go do the shopping but you enjoyed driving so much you just used to go on trips for the hell of it. Now it's like that car's been replaced by an Austin Allegro. I mean sure, it still mostly gets you to work and down the shops but it's just not that nice to drive. So, you stop going on trips and just stay in to watch netflix instead. Sad really.
Zactly! Which is precisely why I suggested that just removing the Choice Marks need some thinking-thru. My argument has continually been, that, ideally, the reward structure for the queues should be homogenized,
I think the word you're looking for might be "normalized". Being HOMOGENIZED is what gave us the CURRENT state of affairs, with abandoned, dead queues as everyone just chases the best payout in because everything gives the same stuff. If queues offered unique value, it wouldn't just be an exercise of figuring out what gives you your paycheck the fastest.
There are no threads like "Are players incapable of fighting the Borg in space?" Aka, it shouldn't be endlessly tougher (for non-Elite players) to get, say, Ancient Power cells over Borg Neural Implants. Ideally, all rep queues of the same level of difficulty should be more-or-less equally hard/easy. So, yeah, let's call that 'normalized.'
Current queues aren't truly homogenized: but their rewards certainly are. Cryptic made it so, that you don't really have to choose which queue you want to run, as Marks for all reps are available almost everywhere. Would be nice if they changed that, but... ONLY if they normalized the queues first. And I don't think they will. So, Choice Marks are likely a necessary evil.
Those who are suggesting to remove the choice Marks from various queues/RA's, please consider the reason they were instituted to begin with: ppl didn't want to play the appropriate queues and/or found some too tedious and/or couldn't find enough folks to get the queues to pop, etc. For instance, there's a whole thread about the Tzenkethi queues being unplayable (I'm not saying they are, but ppl are confronted with their reality nonetheless); and the Tzenkethi BZ is broken (as for the ability to finish it). So, in a way, the choice Marks are Cryptic's lazy way, to put it irreverently, to 'fix' the situation with numerous queues.
So, until such time Cryptic actually fixes all queues, I say choice Marks should stay.
I absolutely agree with you that the queue design has just become lazier over the time. I also agree with others that having RAs choice of all marks is very bad move from Cryptic (Remember when Borg RA just rewarded omega and Tholian RA only Nukara and Romulan? and you actually had to chase them, they weren't permaqueues? And the game wasn't unplayable back then, was it?).
I actually agree with those ppl and you too: introducing Choice Marks was a very poor choice, only exacerbating the empty-queue problem tenfold. Nevertheless, I still maintain that just removing Choice Marks 'as a good start' is not a good idea, either.
However, what I'm trying to say is that neither of those is the core problem behind player exodus from all sorts of queues. Rather, it's Cryptic trying to decide our fun for us. It's not rewards that ultimately keeps ppl playing queues, something both Sea and you, as well as myself proved. You can only do content so much until you have earned absolutely everything possible.
Precisely! And I don't know why ppl keep saying ppl run queues for the rewards. That's only true, maybe, for the first 30 days or so: after that, you have every bit of said rep gear you ever wanted. Heck, even my new Jem doesn't truly need any rep gear any more. Like you, I like to run CSA, for instance: and trust me, there's nothing in the Borg rep I need any more -- and hasn't been for years. It's just fun pew-pewing.
And it's not only the fault of timegated queues too - when you're having a blast otherwise, you won't even notice timegates (at least when they are not screaming into your face as is the case with the new Dranuur queue). However, when Cryptic decided to nerf the hell out of our own, buildable fun, we got stuck in the place we are. I think Nirett explained it the best when he said...
Before S13 it was like having a really nice car. You only really needed it to get to work or go do the shopping but you enjoyed driving so much you just used to go on trips for the hell of it. Now it's like that car's been replaced by an Austin Allegro. I mean sure, it still mostly gets you to work and down the shops but it's just not that nice to drive. So, you stop going on trips and just stay in to watch netflix instead. Sad really.
That was a good car analogy (usually Internet car analogies are fail, but this one really worked). Thanks.
I actually agree with those ppl and you too: introducing Choice Marks was a very poor choice, only exacerbating the empty-queue problem tenfold. Nevertheless, I still maintain that just removing Choice Marks 'as a good start' is not a good idea, either.
Yeah, I'm afraid that's true. RAs in their current state at least offer opportunity for newcomers to catch up. However, the real challenge is to get those new players stay in the game and participate in the MMO environment, not play the game as a single player game or even worse, quit the game as soon as they finish the storyline missions. However, hardly anyone will stay if they notice the game is a literal ghost town, because Cryptic is apparently trying their best to purge the game from old veterans.
And at the risk of sounding snobbish, I have to say that there's a difference between playing and playing (following critique is not aimed at you, Mei, but I assume you know it ). If all you do is play storyline, participate in WW/Risa and perhaps do a patrol or even a BZ every blue moon, but rest of the time just stare at the tailor, then sorry, but in a new player's perspective, you're non-existant. Sure, you might help the game financially, and it's certainly necessary to keep the game in float in the first place, but it does absolutely nothing to retain players.
Newcomers look for someone to play with, even if it's a silent body in their PvE queue, but with most of previously active players fed up and gone, they are out of luck. And if they finally do get a queue to pop, it'll be advanced queue, filled with either new players like themselves or absolutely horrible players who are playing since beta, but refuse to learn basic game mechanics. In subsequent 5 times they get a queue to pop, they die 10 times, lose the optional, get fed up and leave.
(flame/troll comment removed) - darkbladejk
So, what Cryptic should do is to desperately find a way to keep interested those few of old expert players who actually treat the way as a proper MMO. Concurrently, they should do their best to retain new players, not scare them away with stuff like 12 different reputations, timegates marinated within timegates for pretty much every new content, total discrepancies of difficulty inside storyline (who the hell decided to put first mission of Yesterday's War after Klingon War - poor newbies get slaughtered wherever Daniels sends them) and constantly shifting goalposts of "game balance".
And don't nerf to death every piece of equipment that is fairly cheap to obtain, but goes a long way in improving their combat capabilities (Embassy consoles, I'm looking at you). Give them long-term goals that are not a tedious grind, but rather a fun experience (how long are we waiting for that new No-Win Scenario? Kobayashi Maru doesn't count).
But why am I wasting my breath? Cryptic has to live up to their name in the fullest and they have displayed time and time again that they just don't care at all, and that they prefer wallow in their own incompetence, rather than trying to find out why they are getting so much criticism and fix the problems.
Every time I look up players boasting about the effectiveness of ISA- and CCA-rewards on DPS leaderboards and web tools I always find them to be mediocre or from the lower spectrum at best; if I find them at all. One does not need to parse oneself to be registered just pug on a more or less regular basis.
I think that’s really funny especially if you parse a lot and realize that there are only like 4-5 dozen players in game who noteworthy contribute to this “great” effort/reward ratio while the others just seem to take it for granted by now.
Too bad we miss out elite versions of those matches. But if we had them I’m sure the advanced ones would quickly fall back in line with the rest of the empty queue list. HSA/N not to mention this very thread are also good hints to that.
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Those who are suggesting to remove the choice Marks from various queues/RA's, please consider the reason they were instituted to begin with: ppl didn't want to play the appropriate queues and/or found some too tedious and/or couldn't find enough folks to get the queues to pop, etc. For instance, there's a whole thread about the Tzenkethi queues being unplayable (I'm not saying they are, but ppl are confronted with their reality nonetheless); and the Tzenkethi BZ is broken (as for the ability to finish it). So, in a way, the choice Marks are Cryptic's lazy way, to put it irreverently, to 'fix' the situation with numerous queues.
So, until such time Cryptic actually fixes all queues, I say choice Marks should stay.
I absolutely agree with you that the queue design has just become lazier over the time. I also agree with others that having RAs choice of all marks is very bad move from Cryptic (Remember when Borg RA just rewarded omega and Tholian RA only Nukara and Romulan? and you actually had to chase them, they weren't permaqueues? And the game wasn't unplayable back then, was it?).
I actually agree with those ppl and you too: introducing Choice Marks was a very poor choice, only exacerbating the empty-queue problem tenfold. Nevertheless, I still maintain that just removing Choice Marks 'as a good start' is not a good idea, either.
Choice marks were first introduced with the Summer Event 2013, for the Risian birds which didn't have a preexisting "native" reward and Cryptic wouldn't invent a new one. Since then, they have been expanded to cover basically every event ever. Putting them in the alerts is just the tip of the iceberg.
They are are not only "exacerbating the empty-queue problem," they are at the very root of it. Right after the removal of the STF unique drops.
Every time I look up players boasting about the effectiveness of ISA- and CCA-rewards on DPS leaderboards and web tools I always find them to be mediocre or from the lower spectrum at best; if I find them at all. One does not need to parse oneself to be registered just pug on a more or less regular basis.
I think that’s really funny especially if you parse a lot and realize that there are only like 4-5 dozen players in game who noteworthy contribute to this “great” effort/reward ratio while the others just seem to take it for granted by now.
I'm sure there's a dig in there somewhere. And, in fact, I identified several. I'm just not sure how 'the effectiveness of ISA- and CCA-rewards' relates to DPS records. I mean, CCA pays out 80 (non-daily) Fleet Marks, vs. 10 (also non-daily) Fleet Marks elsewhere, regardless of ppl's listing in the DPS-League.
Just for the record, I'm listed for 129k in CCA (20.0 secs completion time). That's Ranking 444 (out of a 10,546 total). Certainly 'mediocre' when compared to the magical 283k tunebreaker pulls; and nothing I would write home about; but I never staked any claim to being a high-DPSer to begin with -- not in this thread, nor elsewhere, for that matter. And I did 93k in ISA (vs. 103k by tunebreaker, which is kinda odd, as he should be in the 300k+ range; he likely didn't run it for several Seasons). And I found you listed for 183k; so, yeah, you're obviously a way better player than I am. Nothing new there. Still, CCA is a highly rewarding queue, compared to other queues, regardless of how well ppl fare in the League.
Just fyi, during the entire 2018 I've probably done like 10 ISAs with my main, none of which I parsed myself, and another handful with my Jem.
HSE is currently the main parsing playground, and not only for me. DPS-numbers league is already inviting ppl into 50k+ based on HSE parses, and I expect DPS-metals to follow, at some point, cause things in ISA, an adv queue, have gone beyond ridiculous.
PS. I'm 99% sure that under current game mechanics, it's impossible to hit numbers in range of 300k without relying heavily on energy weapons. Yes, there's CCA, but numbers attained in there are, ultimately, utterly pointless and not comparable to anything else.
PS. I'm 99% sure that under current game mechanics, it's impossible to hit numbers in range of 300k without relying heavily on energy weapons. Yes, there's CCA, but numbers attained in there are, ultimately, utterly pointless and not comparable to anything else.
There is this new „thing“ some exotic heavy guys tend to do in ISA. Works like this: after the initial spawn is cleared. 2 players clear left, 2 players clear right. Then they focus on tac cube only. The exotic heavy player goes directly middle to gate and chains all buffs and abilities into one big gravity well which includes all spheres. I got interested enough in it so I was willing to participate as a flank player there yesterday and parsed the exotic player at 290k or so.
As metal league player I should be the last one to criticize team approaches to ISA but this 2/1/2 approach how it is called feels pretty cheap, not to mention seem to scratch and gate doping limits.
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A certain few in here need to cool their jets and dial it back a bit. if this is going to turn into a flame fest against cryptic or against others I will shut this down in a heartbeat. Folks are free to express negative opinions, however there is a large difference in expressing negative opinions and flaming.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
When we long for life without difficulties, remind us that oaks grow strong in contrary winds and diamonds are made under pressure.
Post edited by ussvaliant#6064 on
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
PS. I'm 99% sure that under current game mechanics, it's impossible to hit numbers in range of 300k without relying heavily on energy weapons. Yes, there's CCA, but numbers attained in there are, ultimately, utterly pointless and not comparable to anything else.
There is this new „thing“ some exotic heavy guys tend to do in ISA. Works like this: after the initial spawn is cleared. 2 players clear left, 2 players clear right. Then they focus on tac cube only. The exotic heavy player goes directly middle to gate and chains all buffs and abilities into one big gravity well which includes all spheres. I got interested enough in it so I was willing to participate as a flank player there yesterday and parsed the exotic player at 290k or so.
As metal league player I should be the last one to criticize team approaches to ISA but this 2/1/2 approach how it is called feels pretty cheap, not to mention seem to scratch and gate doping limits.
Yep, that sounds awfully like gatedoping for me. One of the biggest reasons why I prefer Hive heavily over Infected as a benchmark - not really possible to artificially inflate your numbers there by hitting something that heals at an incredible rate.
PS. I'm 99% sure that under current game mechanics, it's impossible to hit numbers in range of 300k without relying heavily on energy weapons. Yes, there's CCA, but numbers attained in there are, ultimately, utterly pointless and not comparable to anything else.
There is this new „thing“ some exotic heavy guys tend to do in ISA. Works like this: after the initial spawn is cleared. 2 players clear left, 2 players clear right. Then they focus on tac cube only. The exotic heavy player goes directly middle to gate and chains all buffs and abilities into one big gravity well which includes all spheres. I got interested enough in it so I was willing to participate as a flank player there yesterday and parsed the exotic player at 290k or so.
As metal league player I should be the last one to criticize team approaches to ISA but this 2/1/2 approach how it is called feels pretty cheap, not to mention seem to scratch and gate doping limits.
Not to me. I'm immediately envisioning a version of the mission hard enough to require such creative strategy.
Pah, DPS records mean sod-all for how populated the queues are because i'd hazard a guess and say well over half of the players have zero idea where they parse nor are they interested.
Most players probably just want to log in and hop into some well populated combat situations which will reward then sensibly for their input and time taken and that won't leave them sitting waiting for timers to tick down to start for 30+mins.
Where someone is in a league table of DPS maters not one iota as to how full those queues are or why certain queues are more populated. What maters to most people is "am i gonna get a decent reward to use up my limited time in this grind intensive game?" and if the answer is no, they will seek out something that does offer that. CCA, ISA, MINE....those three especially (heck, even the Colony Sims when you could sell for EC) offer a pretty hefty reward well out of line with everything else, and can be completed with even basic level teams of utter noobs with a bit of luck. You don't need top end payers to carry you any more unless you are foolish enough to try HSE or Korfez.
Lets face it, apart from a tiny section of content this game is a cake walk for most players even down to the poor 10-20K guys; its the grindy nature and shoddy rewards in some areas that are pushing people into a tiny bandwidth of content. You create a reward drought in one part of the game and people will flood the few well paying parts.
Yep, that sounds awfully like gatedoping for me. One of the biggest reasons why I prefer Hive heavily over Infected as a benchmark - not really possible to artificially inflate your numbers there by hitting something that heals at an incredible rate.
Well yea I agree that HSE really has its charm as DPS measuring ground. I just remain skeptical if it’s prudent to mix it with ISA as far as a channel structure is concerned. HSE is more about getting the balance act between dmg and survivability straight while ISA on the other hand forces a player to think more about positioning and engaging ability at the right time (piloting). So in short the core elements that help you to fabricate high DPS numbers are simply different.
Whatever, in the end it does not really matter as we have tables for both maps.
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businesses that live and die by profit (aka businesses that are not government sponsored) do this all the time, and they do what works to keep the income coming in.
it has zero to do with what makes a better MMO, it has everything to do with what keeps the servers running and the staff paid.
A rather sad testimony to the nature of Cryptic, isn't it? You'd think that, somewhere along the line, they'd actually care (you know, trying to make a good MMO, instead of just trying to make money). One should never be disillusioned by things like this, but I always am.
A rather sad testimony to the nature of Cryptic, isn't it? You'd think that, somewhere along the line, they'd actually care (you know, trying to make a good MMO, instead of just trying to make money). One should never be disillusioned by things like this, but I always am.
I have to respectuflly disagree on this one.
I definitely think there is a middle ground, the goal has to be making money.. Cryptic is a business not a charity. They have employees trying to make a living and feed their families, we shouldn't lose site of that.
That being said, the key to making money is actually making a good MMO which I think Cryptic has done. I won't say I agree with everything they do, but I weigh the good with the bad and overall I think they made a pretty good game. To be honest, I have to think that way, I have been playing this game on and off since 2013, if I put 5 years into a game I think sucks then I would have to seriously wonder what was wrong with me.
I think that at least some of them honestly do care, but they have to balance reality against expectations. If they don't find ways to generate revenue, then it all goes away.. it's just that simple. I know a couple people that work (or used to work) in the Video Game industry and the one thing they all have in common is that they started in that field because they loved games. They all wanted to do something great and make a product people love, but sadly the need to make money is a part of the business and something developers have to be cognizant of at all times. In a perfect world, our joy and satisfaction could sustain everyone that works on the game and all they would have to do is concentrate on fun, but sadly the world doesn't work that way.
You and I are both still here, so they must be doing something right eh?
A rather sad testimony to the nature of Cryptic, isn't it? You'd think that, somewhere along the line, they'd actually care (you know, trying to make a good MMO, instead of just trying to make money). One should never be disillusioned by things like this, but I always am.
I have to respectuflly disagree on this one.
I definitely think there is a middle ground, the goal has to be making money.. Cryptic is a business not a charity. They have employees trying to make a living and feed their families, we shouldn't lose site of that.
That being said, the key to making money is actually making a good MMO which I think Cryptic has done. I won't say I agree with everything they do, but I weigh the good with the bad and overall I think they made a pretty good game. To be honest, I have to think that way, I have been playing this game on and off since 2013, if I put 5 years into a game I think sucks then I would have to seriously wonder what was wrong with me.
I think that at least some of them honestly do care, but they have to balance reality against expectations. If they don't find ways to generate revenue, then it all goes away.. it's just that simple. I know a couple people that work (or used to work) in the Video Game industry and the one thing they all have in common is that they started in that field because they loved games. They all wanted to do something great and make a product people love, but sadly the need to make money is a part of the business and something developers have to be cognizant of at all times. In a perfect world, our joy and satisfaction could sustain everyone that works on the game and all they would have to do is concentrate on fun, but sadly the world doesn't work that way.
You and I are both still here, so they must be doing something right eh?
^^ Please, don't write excellent, balanced retorts like that: it makes me look too blonde. ;p
A rather sad testimony to the nature of Cryptic, isn't it? You'd think that, somewhere along the line, they'd actually care (you know, trying to make a good MMO, instead of just trying to make money). One should never be disillusioned by things like this, but I always am.
I have to respectuflly disagree on this one.
I definitely think there is a middle ground, the goal has to be making money.. Cryptic is a business not a charity. They have employees trying to make a living and feed their families, we shouldn't lose site of that.
That being said, the key to making money is actually making a good MMO which I think Cryptic has done. I won't say I agree with everything they do, but I weigh the good with the bad and overall I think they made a pretty good game. To be honest, I have to think that way, I have been playing this game on and off since 2013, if I put 5 years into a game I think sucks then I would have to seriously wonder what was wrong with me.
I think that at least some of them honestly do care, but they have to balance reality against expectations. If they don't find ways to generate revenue, then it all goes away.. it's just that simple. I know a couple people that work (or used to work) in the Video Game industry and the one thing they all have in common is that they started in that field because they loved games. They all wanted to do something great and make a product people love, but sadly the need to make money is a part of the business and something developers have to be cognizant of at all times. In a perfect world, our joy and satisfaction could sustain everyone that works on the game and all they would have to do is concentrate on fun, but sadly the world doesn't work that way.
You and I are both still here, so they must be doing something right eh?
I fully agree that running an MMO is not a charity and they need to make profit somehow. I also agree that STO, in fact, has one of the most generous F2P models out there, so I've never complained about that aspect.
However, we need to consider that STO is the only (functional) ST-themed MMORPG that the world has, and one of the few ST-themed games in general. Star Trek has a huge fandom and there are plenty of people are willing to throw their money at Cryptic no matter what, just to fly their favourite ship(s) and have that Trek feel. That's what is keeping them afloat.
If it weren't for that backing from a large fandom, I would assume the game would show them huge losses (while I find it extremely unlikely, maybe it already does, we don't know, Cryptic and especially PWE have many other games that could generate enough revenue to sustain other less profitable games). Consider this, if it were just a "regular" MMO, would it have nearly as big attraction? Sure, the story is mostly enjoyable and coherent, and art department is doing a spectacular job, but I reiterate - devs in charge of game balance and mechanics seem to be absolutely clueless, and we have already seen the mass exodus of players who are more competitive and care more about those aspects.
Anyhow, don't you folks think we are not exactly talking about nerfing HSE anymore?
A rather sad testimony to the nature of Cryptic, isn't it? You'd think that, somewhere along the line, they'd actually care (you know, trying to make a good MMO, instead of just trying to make money). One should never be disillusioned by things like this, but I always am.
I have to respectuflly disagree on this one.
I definitely think there is a middle ground, the goal has to be making money.. Cryptic is a business not a charity. They have employees trying to make a living and feed their families, we shouldn't lose site of that.
That being said, the key to making money is actually making a good MMO which I think Cryptic has done. I won't say I agree with everything they do, but I weigh the good with the bad and overall I think they made a pretty good game. To be honest, I have to think that way, I have been playing this game on and off since 2013, if I put 5 years into a game I think sucks then I would have to seriously wonder what was wrong with me.
I think that at least some of them honestly do care, but they have to balance reality against expectations. If they don't find ways to generate revenue, then it all goes away.. it's just that simple. I know a couple people that work (or used to work) in the Video Game industry and the one thing they all have in common is that they started in that field because they loved games. They all wanted to do something great and make a product people love, but sadly the need to make money is a part of the business and something developers have to be cognizant of at all times. In a perfect world, our joy and satisfaction could sustain everyone that works on the game and all they would have to do is concentrate on fun, but sadly the world doesn't work that way.
You and I are both still here, so they must be doing something right eh?
Right. Making a good game is not in contravention to making money.
And Cryptic's design strategy is certainly working to some extent. They've made an excellent Space Barbie game (although the costume restrictions stop it from being quite as good as it might otherwise be).
But here's the thing: STO is not advertized as a Space Barbie game. It is, ostensibly, a combat game. But all of that gameplay is completely unmonetized.
They sell all these ships and gear and lockbox stuff...and none of it's needed for anything. None of the stuff earned in gameplay is needed for anything either. There are cooldowns and time gates, but only the R&D system got the industry-standard "pay to skip the timer" -buttons. They run few events and not only are the tasks so easy they're almost login bonuses, you only have to do them once a day and if you miss a day or three, don't worry, have a week or two spare time to catch up. Etc.
It's like they made this great Space Barbie game and then gave all this combat stuff for free on the side, as if just to let people show off how cool their toon/ship looks. In giving up traditional challenge-reward gameplay, they have also given up the chance to monetize it.
I'm not at all opposed to having casual show-off-your-duds content in the game. But it shouldn't be the only content in the game. There should also be challenging content, and reason to play it.
Cryptic HAS made a good game if you look at STO as a nice casual friendly Trek flavoured themepark where you can jump in and out to pretend to be your favourite captain in a favourite ship. The F2P model is insanely generous and there's almost nothing in game you cannot get without a little bit of effort (or pay outright if you so desire).
It was never going to be some hardcore game which expected players to learn complex mechanics or have to deal with perma-loss of belongings like Elite Dangerous, or EVE or several other big MMOs set in space.
I think tbh it's doing what it set out to do pretty well and people only really start to loose their minds when it becomes clear it's not going the way they want it to; be that too hard for the ultra-casuals or too basic and lacking in meat for the DPS-monkeys.
Heck if all you want to do is have a nice canon-looking place to chat with fellow trekkies then this game caters to you as well!
We might not always agree with the way the game goes (i know I've whined with the best of them over the years and still do!) but compared to any other Trek game this place is light-years ahead right now and does exactly what it set out to do.
A rather sad testimony to the nature of Cryptic, isn't it? You'd think that, somewhere along the line, they'd actually care (you know, trying to make a good MMO, instead of just trying to make money). One should never be disillusioned by things like this, but I always am.
I have to respectuflly disagree on this one.
I definitely think there is a middle ground, the goal has to be making money.. Cryptic is a business not a charity. They have employees trying to make a living and feed their families, we shouldn't lose site of that.
That being said, the key to making money is actually making a good MMO which I think Cryptic has done. I won't say I agree with everything they do, but I weigh the good with the bad and overall I think they made a pretty good game. To be honest, I have to think that way, I have been playing this game on and off since 2013, if I put 5 years into a game I think sucks then I would have to seriously wonder what was wrong with me.
I think that at least some of them honestly do care, but they have to balance reality against expectations. If they don't find ways to generate revenue, then it all goes away.. it's just that simple. I know a couple people that work (or used to work) in the Video Game industry and the one thing they all have in common is that they started in that field because they loved games. They all wanted to do something great and make a product people love, but sadly the need to make money is a part of the business and something developers have to be cognizant of at all times. In a perfect world, our joy and satisfaction could sustain everyone that works on the game and all they would have to do is concentrate on fun, but sadly the world doesn't work that way.
You and I are both still here, so they must be doing something right eh?
I fully agree that running an MMO is not a charity and they need to make profit somehow. I also agree that STO, in fact, has one of the most generous F2P models out there, so I've never complained about that aspect.
However, we need to consider that STO is the only (functional) ST-themed MMORPG that the world has, and one of the few ST-themed games in general. Star Trek has a huge fandom and there are plenty of people are willing to throw their money at Cryptic no matter what, just to fly their favourite ship(s) and have that Trek feel. That's what is keeping them afloat.
If it weren't for that backing from a large fandom, I would assume the game would show them huge losses (while I find it extremely unlikely, maybe it already does, we don't know, Cryptic and especially PWE have many other games that could generate enough revenue to sustain other less profitable games). Consider this, if it were just a "regular" MMO, would it have nearly as big attraction? Sure, the story is mostly enjoyable and coherent, and art department is doing a spectacular job, but I reiterate - devs in charge of game balance and mechanics seem to be absolutely clueless, and we have already seen the mass exodus of players who are more competitive and care more about those aspects.
Anyhow, don't you folks think we are not exactly talking about nerfing HSE anymore?
Agreed on all points. If this was the exact same game, but in a generic world not associated with Star Trek, it more then likely would have collapsed a long time ago. The game still hasn't recovered from the huge mistake that was the S13 'balance patch' and it likely never will. They have certainly made a fair share of mistakes and that one is right there at the top.
If you argue for something to be nerfed, it needs to be player related. Asking whether any gear or what kind of gear or traits should be nerfed is also acceptable
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Comments
Yours, apparently.
Zactly! Which is precisely why I suggested that just removing the Choice Marks need some thinking-thru. My argument has continually been, that, ideally, the reward structure for the queues should be homogenized, and various other issues be fixed with it. Basically, they would need a major balance pass (so that, say, getting Elite Marks for the Tzenkethi rep isn't much harder than getting Borg Neural Implants). This would, however, require a major rework -- which isn't the business-opportune thing to do (not to mention the sh*tstorm that would ensue, as you indicated, for *any* change made to them) . So, I've argued that, in absentia of a better plan, the Choice Marks are a relative cheap 'solution' to allow the players to get Elite Marks for every rep, each with about as much effort as the other; and, thus, that just removing the Choice Marks isn't a particular good idea, IMHO.
I also said, that 'if they want to start somewhere, not having CCA pay out 17x as much as elsewhere would be a good start -- regardless of Choice Marks.' That would likely also evoke a firestorm, but yes, homogenizing at least the queue rewards would be a start, if they were ever serious about rewards not being so askew.
I want to echo on this thought. Before Season 13 happened, I could hop into any advanced queue and be reasonably sure it pops within 5, maybe 10 minutes. Hell, even Elites popped every now and then. Sure, it wasn't perfect, it wasn't nearly as busy as, say, before Delta Rising, but you could be reasonably sure you wouldn't have to wait until you're gray in order to play basically anything.
This is absolutely not what were seeing today. Hell, I waited roughly 10 minutes in CSA/KSA/ISA queue the other day, and ISA only started when I asked a friend to queue up with me. What happened? Well, I wrote a pretty popular thread about a year ago - all of the forumites obviously screamed how I'm just dumb and Cryptic decided to do fk all, but here we are, discussing empty queues all over again.
I absolutely agree with you that the queue design has just become lazier over the time. I also agree with others that having RAs choice of all marks is very bad move from Cryptic (Remember when Borg RA just rewarded omega and Tholian RA only Nukara and Romulan? and you actually had to chase them, they weren't permaqueues? And the game wasn't unplayable back then, was it?).
However, what I'm trying to say is that neither of those is the core problem behind player exodus from all sorts of queues. Rather, it's Cryptic trying to decide our fun for us. It's not rewards that ultimately keeps ppl playing queues, something both Sea and you, as well as myself proved. You can only do content so much until you have earned absolutely everything possible. And it's not only the fault of timegated queues too - when you're having a blast otherwise, you won't even notice timegates (at least when they are not screaming into your face as is the case with the new Dranuur queue). However, when Cryptic decided to nerf the hell out of our own, buildable fun, we got stuck in the place we are. I think Nirett explained it the best when he said...
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
There are no threads like "Are players incapable of fighting the Borg in space?" Aka, it shouldn't be endlessly tougher (for non-Elite players) to get, say, Ancient Power cells over Borg Neural Implants. Ideally, all rep queues of the same level of difficulty should be more-or-less equally hard/easy. So, yeah, let's call that 'normalized.'
Current queues aren't truly homogenized: but their rewards certainly are. Cryptic made it so, that you don't really have to choose which queue you want to run, as Marks for all reps are available almost everywhere. Would be nice if they changed that, but... ONLY if they normalized the queues first. And I don't think they will. So, Choice Marks are likely a necessary evil.
I actually agree with those ppl and you too: introducing Choice Marks was a very poor choice, only exacerbating the empty-queue problem tenfold. Nevertheless, I still maintain that just removing Choice Marks 'as a good start' is not a good idea, either.
Precisely! And I don't know why ppl keep saying ppl run queues for the rewards. That's only true, maybe, for the first 30 days or so: after that, you have every bit of said rep gear you ever wanted. Heck, even my new Jem doesn't truly need any rep gear any more. Like you, I like to run CSA, for instance: and trust me, there's nothing in the Borg rep I need any more -- and hasn't been for years. It's just fun pew-pewing.
That was a good car analogy (usually Internet car analogies are fail, but this one really worked). Thanks.
Yeah, I'm afraid that's true. RAs in their current state at least offer opportunity for newcomers to catch up. However, the real challenge is to get those new players stay in the game and participate in the MMO environment, not play the game as a single player game or even worse, quit the game as soon as they finish the storyline missions. However, hardly anyone will stay if they notice the game is a literal ghost town, because Cryptic is apparently trying their best to purge the game from old veterans.
And at the risk of sounding snobbish, I have to say that there's a difference between playing and playing (following critique is not aimed at you, Mei, but I assume you know it
Newcomers look for someone to play with, even if it's a silent body in their PvE queue, but with most of previously active players fed up and gone, they are out of luck. And if they finally do get a queue to pop, it'll be advanced queue, filled with either new players like themselves or absolutely horrible players who are playing since beta, but refuse to learn basic game mechanics. In subsequent 5 times they get a queue to pop, they die 10 times, lose the optional, get fed up and leave.
(flame/troll comment removed) - darkbladejk
So, what Cryptic should do is to desperately find a way to keep interested those few of old expert players who actually treat the way as a proper MMO. Concurrently, they should do their best to retain new players, not scare them away with stuff like 12 different reputations, timegates marinated within timegates for pretty much every new content, total discrepancies of difficulty inside storyline (who the hell decided to put first mission of Yesterday's War after Klingon War - poor newbies get slaughtered wherever Daniels sends them) and constantly shifting goalposts of "game balance".
And don't nerf to death every piece of equipment that is fairly cheap to obtain, but goes a long way in improving their combat capabilities (Embassy consoles, I'm looking at you). Give them long-term goals that are not a tedious grind, but rather a fun experience (how long are we waiting for that new No-Win Scenario? Kobayashi Maru doesn't count).
But why am I wasting my breath? Cryptic has to live up to their name in the fullest and they have displayed time and time again that they just don't care at all, and that they prefer wallow in their own incompetence, rather than trying to find out why they are getting so much criticism and fix the problems.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
I think that’s really funny especially if you parse a lot and realize that there are only like 4-5 dozen players in game who noteworthy contribute to this “great” effort/reward ratio while the others just seem to take it for granted by now.
Too bad we miss out elite versions of those matches. But if we had them I’m sure the advanced ones would quickly fall back in line with the rest of the empty queue list. HSA/N not to mention this very thread are also good hints to that.
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They are are not only "exacerbating the empty-queue problem," they are at the very root of it. Right after the removal of the STF unique drops.
I'm sure there's a dig in there somewhere.
Just for the record, I'm listed for 129k in CCA (20.0 secs completion time). That's Ranking 444 (out of a 10,546 total). Certainly 'mediocre' when compared to the magical 283k tunebreaker pulls; and nothing I would write home about; but I never staked any claim to being a high-DPSer to begin with -- not in this thread, nor elsewhere, for that matter. And I did 93k in ISA (vs. 103k by tunebreaker, which is kinda odd, as he should be in the 300k+ range; he likely didn't run it for several Seasons). And I found you listed for 183k; so, yeah, you're obviously a way better player than I am. Nothing new there. Still, CCA is a highly rewarding queue, compared to other queues, regardless of how well ppl fare in the League.
HSE is currently the main parsing playground, and not only for me. DPS-numbers league is already inviting ppl into 50k+ based on HSE parses, and I expect DPS-metals to follow, at some point, cause things in ISA, an adv queue, have gone beyond ridiculous.
PS. I'm 99% sure that under current game mechanics, it's impossible to hit numbers in range of 300k without relying heavily on energy weapons. Yes, there's CCA, but numbers attained in there are, ultimately, utterly pointless and not comparable to anything else.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
There is this new „thing“ some exotic heavy guys tend to do in ISA. Works like this: after the initial spawn is cleared. 2 players clear left, 2 players clear right. Then they focus on tac cube only. The exotic heavy player goes directly middle to gate and chains all buffs and abilities into one big gravity well which includes all spheres. I got interested enough in it so I was willing to participate as a flank player there yesterday and parsed the exotic player at 290k or so.
As metal league player I should be the last one to criticize team approaches to ISA but this 2/1/2 approach how it is called feels pretty cheap, not to mention seem to scratch and gate doping limits.
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Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
When we long for life without difficulties, remind us that oaks grow strong in contrary winds and diamonds are made under pressure.
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
Yep, that sounds awfully like gatedoping for me. One of the biggest reasons why I prefer Hive heavily over Infected as a benchmark - not really possible to artificially inflate your numbers there by hitting something that heals at an incredible rate.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Most players probably just want to log in and hop into some well populated combat situations which will reward then sensibly for their input and time taken and that won't leave them sitting waiting for timers to tick down to start for 30+mins.
Where someone is in a league table of DPS maters not one iota as to how full those queues are or why certain queues are more populated. What maters to most people is "am i gonna get a decent reward to use up my limited time in this grind intensive game?" and if the answer is no, they will seek out something that does offer that. CCA, ISA, MINE....those three especially (heck, even the Colony Sims when you could sell for EC) offer a pretty hefty reward well out of line with everything else, and can be completed with even basic level teams of utter noobs with a bit of luck. You don't need top end payers to carry you any more unless you are foolish enough to try HSE or Korfez.
Lets face it, apart from a tiny section of content this game is a cake walk for most players even down to the poor 10-20K guys; its the grindy nature and shoddy rewards in some areas that are pushing people into a tiny bandwidth of content. You create a reward drought in one part of the game and people will flood the few well paying parts.
Well yea I agree that HSE really has its charm as DPS measuring ground. I just remain skeptical if it’s prudent to mix it with ISA as far as a channel structure is concerned. HSE is more about getting the balance act between dmg and survivability straight while ISA on the other hand forces a player to think more about positioning and engaging ability at the right time (piloting). So in short the core elements that help you to fabricate high DPS numbers are simply different.
Whatever, in the end it does not really matter as we have tables for both maps.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
A rather sad testimony to the nature of Cryptic, isn't it? You'd think that, somewhere along the line, they'd actually care (you know, trying to make a good MMO, instead of just trying to make money). One should never be disillusioned by things like this, but I always am.
I have to respectuflly disagree on this one.
I definitely think there is a middle ground, the goal has to be making money.. Cryptic is a business not a charity. They have employees trying to make a living and feed their families, we shouldn't lose site of that.
That being said, the key to making money is actually making a good MMO which I think Cryptic has done. I won't say I agree with everything they do, but I weigh the good with the bad and overall I think they made a pretty good game. To be honest, I have to think that way, I have been playing this game on and off since 2013, if I put 5 years into a game I think sucks then I would have to seriously wonder what was wrong with me.
I think that at least some of them honestly do care, but they have to balance reality against expectations. If they don't find ways to generate revenue, then it all goes away.. it's just that simple. I know a couple people that work (or used to work) in the Video Game industry and the one thing they all have in common is that they started in that field because they loved games. They all wanted to do something great and make a product people love, but sadly the need to make money is a part of the business and something developers have to be cognizant of at all times. In a perfect world, our joy and satisfaction could sustain everyone that works on the game and all they would have to do is concentrate on fun, but sadly the world doesn't work that way.
You and I are both still here, so they must be doing something right eh?
^^ Please, don't write excellent, balanced retorts like that: it makes me look too blonde. ;p
I fully agree that running an MMO is not a charity and they need to make profit somehow. I also agree that STO, in fact, has one of the most generous F2P models out there, so I've never complained about that aspect.
However, we need to consider that STO is the only (functional) ST-themed MMORPG that the world has, and one of the few ST-themed games in general. Star Trek has a huge fandom and there are plenty of people are willing to throw their money at Cryptic no matter what, just to fly their favourite ship(s) and have that Trek feel. That's what is keeping them afloat.
If it weren't for that backing from a large fandom, I would assume the game would show them huge losses (while I find it extremely unlikely, maybe it already does, we don't know, Cryptic and especially PWE have many other games that could generate enough revenue to sustain other less profitable games). Consider this, if it were just a "regular" MMO, would it have nearly as big attraction? Sure, the story is mostly enjoyable and coherent, and art department is doing a spectacular job, but I reiterate - devs in charge of game balance and mechanics seem to be absolutely clueless, and we have already seen the mass exodus of players who are more competitive and care more about those aspects.
Anyhow, don't you folks think we are not exactly talking about nerfing HSE anymore?
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Battle of Korfez is "NOT"
And Cryptic's design strategy is certainly working to some extent. They've made an excellent Space Barbie game (although the costume restrictions stop it from being quite as good as it might otherwise be).
But here's the thing: STO is not advertized as a Space Barbie game. It is, ostensibly, a combat game. But all of that gameplay is completely unmonetized.
They sell all these ships and gear and lockbox stuff...and none of it's needed for anything. None of the stuff earned in gameplay is needed for anything either. There are cooldowns and time gates, but only the R&D system got the industry-standard "pay to skip the timer" -buttons. They run few events and not only are the tasks so easy they're almost login bonuses, you only have to do them once a day and if you miss a day or three, don't worry, have a week or two spare time to catch up. Etc.
It's like they made this great Space Barbie game and then gave all this combat stuff for free on the side, as if just to let people show off how cool their toon/ship looks. In giving up traditional challenge-reward gameplay, they have also given up the chance to monetize it.
I'm not at all opposed to having casual show-off-your-duds content in the game. But it shouldn't be the only content in the game. There should also be challenging content, and reason to play it.
It was never going to be some hardcore game which expected players to learn complex mechanics or have to deal with perma-loss of belongings like Elite Dangerous, or EVE or several other big MMOs set in space.
I think tbh it's doing what it set out to do pretty well and people only really start to loose their minds when it becomes clear it's not going the way they want it to; be that too hard for the ultra-casuals or too basic and lacking in meat for the DPS-monkeys.
Heck if all you want to do is have a nice canon-looking place to chat with fellow trekkies then this game caters to you as well!
We might not always agree with the way the game goes (i know I've whined with the best of them over the years and still do!) but compared to any other Trek game this place is light-years ahead right now and does exactly what it set out to do.
Agreed on all points. If this was the exact same game, but in a generic world not associated with Star Trek, it more then likely would have collapsed a long time ago. The game still hasn't recovered from the huge mistake that was the S13 'balance patch' and it likely never will. They have certainly made a fair share of mistakes and that one is right there at the top.
If you argue for something to be nerfed, it needs to be player related. Asking whether any gear or what kind of gear or traits should be nerfed is also acceptable
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.