Wow this thread got some serious response levels!!!
Responses to assorted points:
No I didn't play it elite, I don't play anything elite and have no interest in doing so. The toon I was using is a new JH character with, as I noted, MK XII Very Rare gear. That should be enough to tag along on an advanced map, though obviously wouldn't merit a placement on CCA for instance. Most of my toons do have better loadouts - MK XIV weapons, some of which are epic for instance, but I have zero interest in pursuing those awful immersion breaking macro chains and niche loadouts needed for hard core dps, plus since I'm limited to PUGs, I won't be ventuing into elite queues.
No I didn't join Hive Adv. to leech, I joined it because when I PvE I play advanced - mostly CCA and\Red Alerts (can't recall if they offer an Adv. option or whether they're basic despite my queue list defaulting to Adv.). Queue times even for those can be so horrendous that sometimes I simply switch toons and do other stuff instead of waiting.
No I'm not a new player (I've been here oh 3, 4 years), I do however passionately hate and loathe how STO deviates from Trek by encouraging the aforementioned macro chains and the ridiculous complexity of the captain specialization + traits + starship perks + boff bonuses + consoles + ship equipment + active doffs + boff powers + career path + fleet bonuses + anything else I'm overlooking. Thanks but I consider the SFCIII approach to be far far far more rational. Sadly that game's dated. It likely doesn't help that I'm getting really really tired of STO so will likely end up taking a sabbatical eventually. Whether I bother returning from that is a good question however, especially since Risa aside, the game seems to be dying.
Running Hive, or anything else with fleet mates isn't an option. If I'm lucky I might run into a fleetmate when I'm on but that's rare. Basic chat happens once in a blue moon, and several of us contribute heavily to colony projects, but that's about the extent of things. I also tend to stay out of regular chat channels as it's simply too easy to venture into suspension\ban territory.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,581Community Moderator
Game's not dying. Queue activity drops during events like Summer and Winter because there's a way to earn marks doing almost passive stuff like turning in event pets for mark boxes. Once you get things rolling, that's potentially 100 marks a day, if youre lucky to get a Risian Bird Egg every day and can eventually get a Tufted Senior, just by DOffing for a few days. Roll an egg a day, along with the resulting bird at each tier... you'd be rolling in marks.
Also Red Alerts don't have an Advanced or Elite level.
I concur. Game is not dying. There's something for everyone to do, and everyone does what makes them happy. Me, I like running the RAs once in awhile, and the Rom-Radiation scan patrols and DSEs. Then sometimes I just faff about with crafting or changing costumes. Then I might do a mission or two if I feel like it. The FEs are nice, but the weekly reward box really isn't a great incentive to get me to want to run them all the time. I use a lot of mission reward items and sets and some Rep sets, don't ever try to min-max and I play Normal all the time.
It's just all according to what each individual has fun at, that's all. But no need to call for nerfing some content just because you had trouble running it.
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
Given I've taken first a time or two on CCA, and frequently take third I don't think you can accuse me of being carried.
And no if you can solo CCA you have a cheat level ship. Attracting excessive attention on CCA means a short life even with a tier 6 ship loaded out with largely MK XIV epic gear.
I never claimed to be a high skill player. More the casual level looking to have a good time, and increasingly finding STO a grind.
If private channels and groupings is where most of the PvE action is that just reinforces the notion the game is dead - there's less public activity, and the proportion of those joining who need to be carried skews the fun factor.
Given I've taken first a time or two on CCA, and frequently take third I don't think you can accuse me of being carried.
And no if you can solo CCA you have a cheat level ship. Attracting excessive attention on CCA means a short life even with a tier 6 ship loaded out with largely MK XIV epic gear.
I never claimed to be a high skill player. More the casual level looking to have a good time, and increasingly finding STO a grind.
If private channels and groupings is where most of the PvE action is that just reinforces the notion the game is dead - there's less public activity, and the proportion of those joining who need to be carried skews the fun factor.
Not to be nasty, but it is possible to come in first in CCA equipped with only a single torpedo. CCA is rather unique in that the CE has a large resistance against energy weapons, lack of resistance against kinetic and actually uses healing to factor in determining the number one.
A build which excels in CCA can utterly fail in ISA or Hive Onslaught.
Private channels and groups have emerged because people got frustrated by players which did not bother with learning the basics of shipbuilding or even healing injuries.
Other than for specific Elite content those private channels and groups are utterly useless and completely unnecessary due to the relative ease with which content in this game can be played.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Clearly I need to define cheat level. By cheat level I don't mean they häcked STO but rather the fact that the difference between elite tier dpsers and ordinary Level 65 players is akin to the difference between new players in their Tier 1 ships, and Level 65 players. Despite ostensibly being comparable they practically exist in different universes.
Not to be nasty, but it is possible to come in first in CCA equipped with only a single torpedo.
CCA was a weird place where it used to be possible to simultaneously win first place AND get an AFK penalty at the same time.
You can easily get 1st place in CCA, just by healing yourself a lot (just slot that Tachyon Beam Trait, and see what happens). Doing the most DPS, at least, does not guarantee first place per se.
The second is much more defense. That one, a tank if you will, is favored by me in fleet runs or more average teams. I usually manage to absorb 50-70% of the incoming damage of a team with it while emitting around 100k DPS myself.
So the real question is this... Why are you still running MK12's? Sorry no excuses doesn't need nerfing but your ship needs buffing and you you need to accept that right now you are not up to the level required. Need to upgrade gear start grinding the Romulan Admiarlity for the zero dilth cost upgrade tokens. Up grade everything. So NO to nerfing it.
Team of five:
2 Sci in SCI SHIPS with CtrlX/EPG builds (SSV3/GW3)
2 CSV/CRF dps Tac ships (A2B or non-A2B - both work wonders)
1 Engineer with a tank/dps build. (feddie with Honored Dead and Miracle Worker/Strategist Spec).
Given I've taken first a time or two on CCA, and frequently take third I don't think you can accuse me of being carried.
And no if you can solo CCA you have a cheat level ship.
I can see how you might think that, but no.
Attracting excessive attention on CCA means a short life even with a tier 6 ship loaded out with largely MK XIV epic gear.
Actually, it's not the Entity you have to worry about the most, but the Tholian ships. If you fly in, and target the Tholian ships first, you're pretty much toast. The trick is to solely focus on the Entity (a cloak on approach certainly helps: the Rep cloak suffices even). And then there's firing the proper type of damage to the Entity, aka Kinetic. Firing Energy weps means the Entity will absorb that, and blast it back at you, in a wave of fire and fury. So, preferably Kinetic, plus hull debuffs (like that Tachyon Beam I mentioned earlier).
I saw a guy on channel once, who said "I only deliver 1 shot in CCA, maximally buffed, and devastating. After that, it all goes down hill." His single shot landed him a 300k+ DPS mark.
So...if somebody is better than you, they have a cheat level ship now. K. It's not that they are more skilled...either in ship building or flat out piloting skill. They are cheats. Yeah...that's a reasonable stance.
Any sufficiently advanced player is indistinguishable from being a cheat.
And yes, there are people who did not cheat who can solo CCA.
I think solo-ing CCA is outside the realm of possibilities for most players, tbh; but certainly possible, from what I've seen elsewhere in the game.
I agree that you need the DPS-centric approach for certain Advanced/Elite content.
But teamwork and coordination becomes crucial when attempting to do clean-runs (no dying, no failed calls, no failed optionals, clean pathfinding).
Crowd Control (Sci Control powers) become a must. And learning to CSV over a GW is a basic move.
Also learning to threat-tank and throw your heals over your top DPS carry guy...
If you see a /arbiter/scimitar/vengeance/mogh/JHVWarship spraying cannon fire, that's probably the guy you need to waste your heals on, not on yourself as your carry dies, ruining his parse and your run results.
The low requirements to be dps-useful in advanced content is actually around 30k. At 50k you're more than suited to be there. At 75k+ you're usually the carry in pugs and you better not be killed.
I must remember to try and convince a few of my more boastful friends to queue for it. Its a useful reminder that 100k in ISA doesn't necessarily translate to other content, partcularly not Korfez.
I got a chance to run FEZ two or three times with @tunebreaker, players of The Science Channel and members of our fleet and we managed to do it. I agree with the map being tough and I even would lie when I say that I understand how we got through all the objectives (benthans & asteroidfield) but it was doable and that with builds that would score around 100k in average ISA pugs.
Sadly the reward is poor. If it would hand out 350+ marks of choice I could see peeps give it a try more often.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I must remember to try and convince a few of my more boastful friends to queue for it. Its a useful reminder that 100k in ISA doesn't necessarily translate to other content, partcularly not Korfez.
I got a chance to run FEZ two or three times with @tunebreaker, players of The Science Channel and members of our fleet and we managed to do it. I agree with the map being tough and I even would lie when I say that I understand how we got through all the objectives (benthans & asteroidfield) but it was doable and that with builds that would score around 100k in average ISA pugs.
Sadly the reward is poor. If it would hand out 350+ marks of choice I could see peeps give it a try more often.
Yeah, I agree with Reyan that not everyone who gets 100k in ISA is automatically capable of completing Korfez, but everyone who manages to complete Korfez will also be able to do really good numbers in ISA (unless they are carried by *extremely* good players, obviously). Perhaps not even 100k capable ships are needed, but 75k+ certainly.
Oh, and the time when we got both benthans and asteroid field - I'm pretty sure it was Zooey's Sparkling Personality™ that carried us that run.
Korfez is the only truly elite content in this game in my opinion right now. It is filled with tougher enemies and waves of ship that outnumber your team, plus it has fail conditions. The best part is that there is some degree of randomness to it, so the team must be able to adapt on the fly to whatever comes at them.
Conversely HSE, ISA etc., they are all identical every time and could almost be run on autopilot s there are no changes between each run other than how the players behave. It's more a case in HSE etc of learning the optimal way to combat the mission.
Korfez can seriously mess up a team if they are not able to adapt quickly, like if they get the Benthans or the asteroid field.
The map is well out of my league now, i've not a hope in hell of being able to help a team through that mission and i fully accept i'd be a massive drag on the other 4 players. HSE i can just about manage, but it's still a tough one in it's current form due to the HP bloat; it's not so much about surviving it's about being able to do enough damage in the time given. I'm happy to stick to normal or advanced where i can still enjoy the fight and feel like a starship captain without feeling like a drain on the team.
But i'll not call for nerfs because both of those maps suit a certain type of player, i may not enjoy them now but i know people who do. Thus they should not loose their playgrounds because some of us are not up to their level of combat effectiveness.
While nobody expect anyone to carry teams through FEZ or the other elite maps I refuse to believe that Reyan or Steve can’t be valuable team-mates in those maps. Both of you have been in game long enough and the variety of builds we have by now should ensure that every preferred play style can be put to good use. Elite maps should not be out of reach for you aside from enough players on in your social network to give it a try.
As there is such a thing as DPS checks on all elite space maps I’m pretty sure that every player in DPS Gold has at least the potential tools at his disposal to tend to those maps as well as the other task to do there.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I must remember to try and convince a few of my more boastful friends to queue for it. Its a useful reminder that 100k in ISA doesn't necessarily translate to other content, partcularly not Korfez.
I got a chance to run FEZ two or three times with @tunebreaker, players of The Science Channel and members of our fleet and we managed to do it. I agree with the map being tough and I even would lie when I say that I understand how we got through all the objectives (benthans & asteroidfield) but it was doable and that with builds that would score around 100k in average ISA pugs.
Sadly the reward is poor. If it would hand out 350+ marks of choice I could see peeps give it a try more often.
Unlikely. To merely match the reward/time ratio of average pug CCA, a 15-minute mission would need to reward over 10k dil ore and 1k marks per run. And that's just accounting for time, not difficulty.
I doubt any realistic amount of same old, same old is ever going to make any of the long queues monetarily attractive. Not even the autowin ones, much less a challenge like Korfez.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,581Community Moderator
Wait... people are actually able to finish Korfez now?
Last time I went in with three Megawells... we couldn't get it past 80% as if it was hardlocked or something. And THAT much science rips EVERYTHING ELSE in the game to shreds!
Strong gravity wells are a mixed blessing in Korfez; if you don’t kill the enemies they stay close together and instantly pop anyone who has to respawn.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,581Community Moderator
I was actually referring to the Boss ship. Everything else gets shredded.
Wait... people are actually able to finish Korfez now?
Last time I went in with three Megawells... we couldn't get it past 80% as if it was hardlocked or something. And THAT much science rips EVERYTHING ELSE in the game to shreds!
Korfez has always been possible. I don't think I've ever failed it when going in with a proper premade.
Trouble with Korfez is that for most people they have no hope of ever getting near completing it, or even starting it tbh. Unless you run in circles of players who are capable of that 100K dmg output and are familiar with the mission then you're squat out of luck.
And the lack of normal or advanced difficulty means most of us will never experience the mission. So there's no way to practice for an elite run, should you even be able to get one going.
Comments
Well said, lordsteve
Responses to assorted points:
No I didn't play it elite, I don't play anything elite and have no interest in doing so. The toon I was using is a new JH character with, as I noted, MK XII Very Rare gear. That should be enough to tag along on an advanced map, though obviously wouldn't merit a placement on CCA for instance. Most of my toons do have better loadouts - MK XIV weapons, some of which are epic for instance, but I have zero interest in pursuing those awful immersion breaking macro chains and niche loadouts needed for hard core dps, plus since I'm limited to PUGs, I won't be ventuing into elite queues.
No I didn't join Hive Adv. to leech, I joined it because when I PvE I play advanced - mostly CCA and\Red Alerts (can't recall if they offer an Adv. option or whether they're basic despite my queue list defaulting to Adv.). Queue times even for those can be so horrendous that sometimes I simply switch toons and do other stuff instead of waiting.
No I'm not a new player (I've been here oh 3, 4 years), I do however passionately hate and loathe how STO deviates from Trek by encouraging the aforementioned macro chains and the ridiculous complexity of the captain specialization + traits + starship perks + boff bonuses + consoles + ship equipment + active doffs + boff powers + career path + fleet bonuses + anything else I'm overlooking. Thanks but I consider the SFCIII approach to be far far far more rational. Sadly that game's dated. It likely doesn't help that I'm getting really really tired of STO so will likely end up taking a sabbatical eventually. Whether I bother returning from that is a good question however, especially since Risa aside, the game seems to be dying.
Running Hive, or anything else with fleet mates isn't an option. If I'm lucky I might run into a fleetmate when I'm on but that's rare. Basic chat happens once in a blue moon, and several of us contribute heavily to colony projects, but that's about the extent of things. I also tend to stay out of regular chat channels as it's simply too easy to venture into suspension\ban territory.
Also Red Alerts don't have an Advanced or Elite level.
It's just all according to what each individual has fun at, that's all. But no need to call for nerfing some content just because you had trouble running it.
And no if you can solo CCA you have a cheat level ship. Attracting excessive attention on CCA means a short life even with a tier 6 ship loaded out with largely MK XIV epic gear.
I never claimed to be a high skill player. More the casual level looking to have a good time, and increasingly finding STO a grind.
If private channels and groupings is where most of the PvE action is that just reinforces the notion the game is dead - there's less public activity, and the proportion of those joining who need to be carried skews the fun factor.
Not to be nasty, but it is possible to come in first in CCA equipped with only a single torpedo. CCA is rather unique in that the CE has a large resistance against energy weapons, lack of resistance against kinetic and actually uses healing to factor in determining the number one.
A build which excels in CCA can utterly fail in ISA or Hive Onslaught.
Private channels and groups have emerged because people got frustrated by players which did not bother with learning the basics of shipbuilding or even healing injuries.
Other than for specific Elite content those private channels and groups are utterly useless and completely unnecessary due to the relative ease with which content in this game can be played.
You can easily get 1st place in CCA, just by healing yourself a lot (just slot that Tachyon Beam Trait, and see what happens). Doing the most DPS, at least, does not guarantee first place per se.
For HSE I currently favor 2 of my builds. The first one is for max offence. Something I bring in Diamond groups with results beyond 200k DPS.
Neela’s Jem'Hadar Vanguard Warship for HSE
The second is much more defense. That one, a tank if you will, is favored by me in fleet runs or more average teams. I usually manage to absorb 50-70% of the incoming damage of a team with it while emitting around 100k DPS myself.
K’ris’ Vengeance
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Team of five:
2 Sci in SCI SHIPS with CtrlX/EPG builds (SSV3/GW3)
2 CSV/CRF dps Tac ships (A2B or non-A2B - both work wonders)
1 Engineer with a tank/dps build. (feddie with Honored Dead and Miracle Worker/Strategist Spec).
Suddenly it becomes doable.
I can see how you might think that, but no.
Actually, it's not the Entity you have to worry about the most, but the Tholian ships. If you fly in, and target the Tholian ships first, you're pretty much toast. The trick is to solely focus on the Entity (a cloak on approach certainly helps: the Rep cloak suffices even). And then there's firing the proper type of damage to the Entity, aka Kinetic. Firing Energy weps means the Entity will absorb that, and blast it back at you, in a wave of fire and fury. So, preferably Kinetic, plus hull debuffs (like that Tachyon Beam I mentioned earlier).
I saw a guy on channel once, who said "I only deliver 1 shot in CCA, maximally buffed, and devastating. After that, it all goes down hill." His single shot landed him a 300k+ DPS mark.
Any sufficiently advanced player is indistinguishable from being a cheat.
I think solo-ing CCA is outside the realm of possibilities for most players, tbh; but certainly possible, from what I've seen elsewhere in the game.
But teamwork and coordination becomes crucial when attempting to do clean-runs (no dying, no failed calls, no failed optionals, clean pathfinding).
Crowd Control (Sci Control powers) become a must. And learning to CSV over a GW is a basic move.
Also learning to threat-tank and throw your heals over your top DPS carry guy...
If you see a /arbiter/scimitar/vengeance/mogh/JHVWarship spraying cannon fire, that's probably the guy you need to waste your heals on, not on yourself as your carry dies, ruining his parse and your run results.
The low requirements to be dps-useful in advanced content is actually around 30k. At 50k you're more than suited to be there. At 75k+ you're usually the carry in pugs and you better not be killed.
I got a chance to run FEZ two or three times with @tunebreaker, players of The Science Channel and members of our fleet and we managed to do it. I agree with the map being tough and I even would lie when I say that I understand how we got through all the objectives (benthans & asteroidfield) but it was doable and that with builds that would score around 100k in average ISA pugs.
Sadly the reward is poor. If it would hand out 350+ marks of choice I could see peeps give it a try more often.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Yeah, I agree with Reyan that not everyone who gets 100k in ISA is automatically capable of completing Korfez, but everyone who manages to complete Korfez will also be able to do really good numbers in ISA (unless they are carried by *extremely* good players, obviously). Perhaps not even 100k capable ships are needed, but 75k+ certainly.
Oh, and the time when we got both benthans and asteroid field - I'm pretty sure it was Zooey's Sparkling Personality™ that carried us that run.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
Conversely HSE, ISA etc., they are all identical every time and could almost be run on autopilot s there are no changes between each run other than how the players behave. It's more a case in HSE etc of learning the optimal way to combat the mission.
Korfez can seriously mess up a team if they are not able to adapt quickly, like if they get the Benthans or the asteroid field.
The map is well out of my league now, i've not a hope in hell of being able to help a team through that mission and i fully accept i'd be a massive drag on the other 4 players. HSE i can just about manage, but it's still a tough one in it's current form due to the HP bloat; it's not so much about surviving it's about being able to do enough damage in the time given. I'm happy to stick to normal or advanced where i can still enjoy the fight and feel like a starship captain without feeling like a drain on the team.
But i'll not call for nerfs because both of those maps suit a certain type of player, i may not enjoy them now but i know people who do. Thus they should not loose their playgrounds because some of us are not up to their level of combat effectiveness.
As there is such a thing as DPS checks on all elite space maps I’m pretty sure that every player in DPS Gold has at least the potential tools at his disposal to tend to those maps as well as the other task to do there.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I doubt any realistic amount of same old, same old is ever going to make any of the long queues monetarily attractive. Not even the autowin ones, much less a challenge like Korfez.
Last time I went in with three Megawells... we couldn't get it past 80% as if it was hardlocked or something. And THAT much science rips EVERYTHING ELSE in the game to shreds!
Korfez has always been possible. I don't think I've ever failed it when going in with a proper premade.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
And the lack of normal or advanced difficulty means most of us will never experience the mission. So there's no way to practice for an elite run, should you even be able to get one going.