I really have to laugh when people say that the old UI only for people that had it memorized. Are people that daft these days? The Queues in the old UI were in ALPHABETICAL ORDER. The only thing you'd have to memorize under that is the order of letters in the Alphabet. People should really have that down pat by the time they were 8.
well yeah, because the UI was totally telling you also what rewards are in which queues and if you wanted - lets say....... temporal marks all they needed to memorise is order of letters in the alphabet.......
EDIT: shiet and I promised myself to not engage into this thread anymore xD
With quite a bit already passed since the launch of Season 13, I am confident when I say that it was even worse to STO than DR was back in 2014.
And no, I am not talking about story or new queues or something like that. I am talking about how game mechanics were changed and how it affected the playerbase.
With S13, the main culprits are obviously new (and not improved) Queue UI and Space Rebalance. In fact, those 2 are so detrimental to game that my friends list is emptier than before, hardly anyone talks in DPS channels and it takes really long time to start any pug queues. If you're having a bad part of the day, you could end up waiting 15 minutes to see even an ISA pop.
Was this really what this game needed? Even less activity? Neither of those changes was needed.
Old queue UI worked pretty well and the new one certainly didn't fix any problems, quite the opposite, it made queueing with teams and forming private matches even more painful. And even if they do start, the quality of pugs has dropped dramatically.
Which brings me to space rebalance... While I wasn't against reworking some things, I have always been opposed to big nerfs. And now looking at it, I miss the old meta. What good did the "equalisation" bring if people simply don't join the queues? Sure, I was slightly jealous when someone with half of my piloting skills did twice my damage and was more durable than me as well, just because they built their ship in a "more correct way", but ultimately it doesn't matter. DPS is just a number and at least I *could* start a queue back then. And don't fool yourself that power creep has stopped or that high DPSers have been brought down. People are still doing 300k+ in dedicated runs. It's always weaker players who suffer the most with changes like these.
I miss the times when everyone tried to tank so I didn't have to. I miss viable beam-sci builds. I miss Plasma Exploders that did decent damage, making it much easier for a newbie to carry their weight in a pug. And most of all, I miss the times when I didn't have to wait 10 mins for a pug to start, and when I didn't have to worry about the game not taking my teammate into the mission with me.
Oh, and PvP is still a joke. Still only 10 players playing it, perhaps only in decimals and not in binary nowadays. And "balance" is nowhere to be seen in there either.
I know I wouldn't oppose a complete reroll. Sure, I am fully aware it's extremely unlikely, but hey, one can dream.
Sorry OP but this is wrong. DR was in class by itself and cannot be compared to S13 unless you are a DPS junkie.
Do you remember the signatures endeavor for DR "DR is the BEST expansion EVER and players Loved it" is there a similar outcry by the community now? nada...
In terms of empty queues. Have you been here before DR? Empty queues have been a chronic problem since way before the inception of the queue system. PWE can't do anything to counteract its affects but they were always dead after running a rep or events.
DR saw a huge decrease of players exiting the game due to XP being nerfed to oblivion (among other things) that affected everyone and also killed PvP that was on life support but you could always till find a group in PvP. Now it is past dead.
If you only care for DPS yeah certainly S13 messed up your play style. Lots of players that complained about space DPS being nerfed in S13 are indeed still around here while in DR those who got peeved never returned.
These days it is even hard to find an empty map in Risa or even ESD meaning that if you use logic the impact of S13 was very low in people exiting this MMO.
With quite a bit already passed since the launch of Season 13, I am confident when I say that it was even worse to STO than DR was back in 2014.
And no, I am not talking about story or new queues or something like that. I am talking about how game mechanics were changed and how it affected the playerbase.
With S13, the main culprits are obviously new (and not improved) Queue UI and Space Rebalance. In fact, those 2 are so detrimental to game that my friends list is emptier than before, hardly anyone talks in DPS channels and it takes really long time to start any pug queues. If you're having a bad part of the day, you could end up waiting 15 minutes to see even an ISA pop.
Was this really what this game needed? Even less activity? Neither of those changes was needed.
Old queue UI worked pretty well and the new one certainly didn't fix any problems, quite the opposite, it made queueing with teams and forming private matches even more painful. And even if they do start, the quality of pugs has dropped dramatically.
Which brings me to space rebalance... While I wasn't against reworking some things, I have always been opposed to big nerfs. And now looking at it, I miss the old meta. What good did the "equalisation" bring if people simply don't join the queues? Sure, I was slightly jealous when someone with half of my piloting skills did twice my damage and was more durable than me as well, just because they built their ship in a "more correct way", but ultimately it doesn't matter. DPS is just a number and at least I *could* start a queue back then. And don't fool yourself that power creep has stopped or that high DPSers have been brought down. People are still doing 300k+ in dedicated runs. It's always weaker players who suffer the most with changes like these.
I miss the times when everyone tried to tank so I didn't have to. I miss viable beam-sci builds. I miss Plasma Exploders that did decent damage, making it much easier for a newbie to carry their weight in a pug. And most of all, I miss the times when I didn't have to wait 10 mins for a pug to start, and when I didn't have to worry about the game not taking my teammate into the mission with me.
Oh, and PvP is still a joke. Still only 10 players playing it, perhaps only in decimals and not in binary nowadays. And "balance" is nowhere to be seen in there either.
I know I wouldn't oppose a complete reroll. Sure, I am fully aware it's extremely unlikely, but hey, one can dream.
Sorry OP but this is wrong. DR was in class by itself and cannot be compared to S13 unless you are a DPS junkie.
Do you remember the signatures endeavor for DR "DR is the BEST expansion EVER and players Loved it" is there a similar outcry by the community now? nada...
In terms of empty queues. Have you been here before DR? Empty queues have been a chronic problem since way before the inception of the queue system.
The queues have never been this empty. And, frankly, it's a bit disingenuous to pretend the queues were empty pr-DR too: they absolutely weren't. This time around, I think many ppl just left:
With regards to S13 vs DR, I wasn't here for DR, so I have no real comparison. I do know that S13 negatively affected my builds far less than others have reported. As shown by my CLR reports on this page. I believe the bigger issue is the queue UI, rather than the rebalance. I do believe the rebalance caused some issues, and this thread has highlighted some of them, but I believe the queue UI is the bigger contributor. In as such, I believe @LordSteve1's opinion on the matter is similar to my own. Changes needed to be made to mix things up, and I find more people complaining about how clunky it is to use the queue UI or even that they can't use it to make private queues(or mixed faction private queues) for one reason or another. Something the old queue UI never did.
Certain people in this thread say that the DPS meisters have ruined the game for them and others, that they're using "exploits and broken mechanics" to set their numbers. I entirely disagree. I "joined" the DPS community at most a year ago, and I mainly did it as a source of information and to see my relative performance with the ship(s) I've been working on. I respect their limits on ship builds per channel, but at the same time, I care mainly about my numbers to see how well I'm doing with what I find "fun". My glass cannon escort regularly gets 80kish. And what did I do to get these numbers I have parsed for me(that's right, I'm so non-committal I don't even run my own parser)? I applied knowledge. That certain boff powers when used together give more than the parts themselves. Giving your ships equipment and calling it a "build" is like bringing out a car's engine and calling it a race car. What about the tires? What about the driver? What about the chassis?
A lot of what makes the "DPS" community so much different from the rest of the game is knowledge. Knowledge that the game itself does not give you. In fact, most of the default ships the game gives you are so not optimized, it feels like a chore just to fly them(never mind setting up the trays so you can reliably control your temporary ship). To not take my optimized escort into a mission I'm doing feels like I'm intentionally hamstringing myself. Like taking a healthy high school athlete and telling him to play a game of bastketball with crutches. He may still get it done, but he's not going to be using his full potential, and he's not going to enjoy it nearly as much. So if I'm not "allowed" to "ruin" other people's fun by bringing in my optimized and familiar ship, it's going to ruin my fun, and that is the catch twenty two of the DPSer vs anti-DPSer argument. Neither side wins.
The only thing that can bridge the gap, is if the knowledge filters through to the rest, and *gasp* turns everyone into a "DPSer". But even if it becomes more available to the regular player base, there will still be those who don't care to learn, or even change how they play.
If we got a simple tutorial on "chaining" and "stacking" abilities, I'd expect the average playerbase to perform closer to 20-30k, rather than have that be the start of the "DPS meisters" as put by a critic in this thread.
Also, based off of my observations, and the patch notes, the reason I believe all these people complaining about dying more are doing so are due to two main changes.
* The equation used to determine how weapons power influences player’s damage has been changed.
It now gives the player a much higher benefit at low power levels.
* The Research Lab weekly combat buffs now grant +10/15/20% max hitpoints instead of a resistance buff.
The former I believe is being applied to NPCs as well, resulting in higher damage in addition to their scaled damage for being NPCs. While the latter means those who used to get that resistance now feel the pain harder.
With regards to S13 vs DR, I wasn't here for DR, so I have no real comparison. I do know that S13 negatively affected my builds far less than others have reported. As shown by my CLR reports on this page. I believe the bigger issue is the queue UI, rather than the rebalance. I do believe the rebalance caused some issues, and this thread has highlighted some of them, but I believe the queue UI is the bigger contributor. In as such, I believe @LordSteve1's opinion on the matter is similar to my own. Changes needed to be made to mix things up, and I find more people complaining about how clunky it is to use the queue UI or even that they can't use it to make private queues(or mixed faction private queues) for one reason or another. Something the old queue UI never did.
Certain people in this thread say that the DPS meisters have ruined the game for them and others, that they're using "exploits and broken mechanics" to set their numbers. I entirely disagree. I "joined" the DPS community at most a year ago, and I mainly did it as a source of information and to see my relative performance with the ship(s) I've been working on. I respect their limits on ship builds per channel, but at the same time, I care mainly about my numbers to see how well I'm doing with what I find "fun". My glass cannon escort regularly gets 80kish. And what did I do to get these numbers I have parsed for me(that's right, I'm so non-committal I don't even run my own parser)? I applied knowledge. That certain boff powers when used together give more than the parts themselves. Giving your ships equipment and calling it a "build" is like bringing out a car's engine and calling it a race car. What about the tires? What about the driver? What about the chassis?
A lot of what makes the "DPS" community so much different from the rest of the game is knowledge. Knowledge that the game itself does not give you. In fact, most of the default ships the game gives you are so not optimized, it feels like a chore just to fly them(never mind setting up the trays so you can reliably control your temporary ship). To not take my optimized escort into a mission I'm doing feels like I'm intentionally hamstringing myself. Like taking a healthy high school athlete and telling him to play a game of bastketball with crutches. He may still get it done, but he's not going to be using his full potential, and he's not going to enjoy it nearly as much. So if I'm not "allowed" to "ruin" other people's fun by bringing in my optimized and familiar ship, it's going to ruin my fun, and that is the catch twenty two of the DPSer vs anti-DPSer argument. Neither side wins.
The only thing that can bridge the gap, is if the knowledge filters through to the rest, and *gasp* turns everyone into a "DPSer". But even if it becomes more available to the regular player base, there will still be those who don't care to learn, or even change how they play.
If we got a simple tutorial on "chaining" and "stacking" abilities, I'd expect the average playerbase to perform closer to 20-30k, rather than have that be the start of the "DPS meisters" as put by a critic in this thread.
Also, based off of my observations, and the patch notes, the reason I believe all these people complaining about dying more are doing so are due to two main changes.
* The equation used to determine how weapons power influences player’s damage has been changed.
It now gives the player a much higher benefit at low power levels.
* The Research Lab weekly combat buffs now grant +10/15/20% max hitpoints instead of a resistance buff.
The former I believe is being applied to NPCs as well, resulting in higher damage in addition to their scaled damage for being NPCs. While the latter means those who used to get that resistance now feel the pain harder.
If you're going to respond to points I make, please address me specifically, rather than vaguelly talking about me in the third person, as if my points are unreasonable rantings. We may disagree with each other, but we can still have a civilized discussion. Now, if you're going to make statements like this:
So if I'm not "allowed" to "ruin" other people's fun by bringing in my optimized and familiar ship, it's going to ruin my fun,
it rather suggests that your fun consists of being allowed to ruin other people's fun? That's what you're saying (maybe not whay you mean, but definitely what you said)
Nowhere have I said that DPS Chasing shouldn't be allowed period, but I do believe that it should be kept to private matches, private queues and regular mission content where it can't spoil anyone else's experience by preventing them from engaging. Like I illustrated the other day: A sportsman using a performance enhancing supplement, is not presenting their opponent with a fair contest, and in any such sporting event, invigilators and umpires will step in and take actions. People discovered to be using performance enhancing methods, have even been stripped of olympic medals, and in sime instances, banned from future competition. Apply that framework to this scenario, and all that's happened, is the performance enhancements have been taken away: No one's lost awards received nor been banned from future participation.
Is the information available about the game lacking? Absolutely. Do you remember the unofficial GTA Walkthrough books which were available? STO needs something like that which people can peruse at their leisure and refer to as needbe.
Is it possible to do better than stock? Absolutely. But your comparison of stock to a skilled athelete, is a false equivalency. If someone is a new player, then they don't know any better, and simply work their way through the content as presented. The game's really Not That Hard. Leveling an alt definitely brings more knowledge to the experience, meaning tricks previously learned can be applied which makes things run smoother, and the rank-locking of equipment and ships, means that someone can't load up with a loadout which will simply melt targets. And honestly, what's the point in doing that? Where's the challenge? One-shotting can be fun, but it soon gets boring, so why not just follow the content as presented?
See, all your talking about, is how you feel about things. Excluding for a moment that feels aren't arguments, the main issue with that outlook, is that it's also ignoring the feelings of other players. Players who's experience and purchases are just as valid to Cryptic as yours.
I'm all for good communities. Helping each other out and learning new stuff is good. Doing stuff which is going to affect other people's experience and enjoyment, is bad.
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
With quite a bit already passed since the launch of Season 13, I am confident when I say that it was even worse to STO than DR was back in 2014.
And no, I am not talking about story or new queues or something like that. I am talking about how game mechanics were changed and how it affected the playerbase.
With S13, the main culprits are obviously new (and not improved) Queue UI and Space Rebalance. In fact, those 2 are so detrimental to game that my friends list is emptier than before, hardly anyone talks in DPS channels and it takes really long time to start any pug queues. If you're having a bad part of the day, you could end up waiting 15 minutes to see even an ISA pop.
Was this really what this game needed? Even less activity? Neither of those changes was needed.
Old queue UI worked pretty well and the new one certainly didn't fix any problems, quite the opposite, it made queueing with teams and forming private matches even more painful. And even if they do start, the quality of pugs has dropped dramatically.
Which brings me to space rebalance... While I wasn't against reworking some things, I have always been opposed to big nerfs. And now looking at it, I miss the old meta. What good did the "equalisation" bring if people simply don't join the queues? Sure, I was slightly jealous when someone with half of my piloting skills did twice my damage and was more durable than me as well, just because they built their ship in a "more correct way", but ultimately it doesn't matter. DPS is just a number and at least I *could* start a queue back then. And don't fool yourself that power creep has stopped or that high DPSers have been brought down. People are still doing 300k+ in dedicated runs. It's always weaker players who suffer the most with changes like these.
I miss the times when everyone tried to tank so I didn't have to. I miss viable beam-sci builds. I miss Plasma Exploders that did decent damage, making it much easier for a newbie to carry their weight in a pug. And most of all, I miss the times when I didn't have to wait 10 mins for a pug to start, and when I didn't have to worry about the game not taking my teammate into the mission with me.
Oh, and PvP is still a joke. Still only 10 players playing it, perhaps only in decimals and not in binary nowadays. And "balance" is nowhere to be seen in there either.
I know I wouldn't oppose a complete reroll. Sure, I am fully aware it's extremely unlikely, but hey, one can dream.
Sorry OP but this is wrong. DR was in class by itself and cannot be compared to S13 unless you are a DPS junkie.
Do you remember the signatures endeavor for DR "DR is the BEST expansion EVER and players Loved it" is there a similar outcry by the community now? nada...
In terms of empty queues. Have you been here before DR? Empty queues have been a chronic problem since way before the inception of the queue system.
The queues have never been this empty. And, frankly, it's a bit disingenuous to pretend the queues were empty pr-DR too: they absolutely weren't. This time around, I think many ppl just left:
This is what it comes down to as far as I'm concerned. Pre-DR I had a rotation of around 10-12 different missions that I liked to play. These would all go within 2 minutes - most within 30 seconds.
Now there are 2 and I hear even they can take some time to go.
It's time to address the issue. Either incentivize some group play with the weekly missions (maybe the endeavor system) or move the game towards single player and revamp all the queues to be played with 1 or 2 players. Either way is fine with me.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
And, frankly, it's a bit disingenuous to pretend the queues were empty pr-DR too: they absolutely weren't. This time around, I think many ppl just left:
Maybe. However, pre-DR queues were already rapidly dropping in popularity, making it more and more difficult to get them started (easier than now arguably, but way less than only a couple of weeks earlier). I remember that very well, because I was trying to get a rotation going for my main to fill in all reps, and after somewhat immediate starts before, it started taking longer, even up to 15 minutes (for the Undine one).
I guess - but it is just that - that a major factor was that this was about the time people completed their - relatively new - reputations and sets going with it and didn't "have to" play it anymore.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
See, all your talking about, is how you feel about things. Excluding for a moment that feels aren't arguments, the main issue with that outlook, is that it's also ignoring the feelings of other players. Players who's experience and purchases are just as valid to Cryptic as yours.
The irony of this statement. You're basically demanding that other players play the game the way you feel it should be played. That players who use builds to boost their DPS beyond what the average player does should stay out of public queues and restrict themselves to private matches. Those players have every right to the public queues, same as you, and that you feel they should do otherwise is no basis for an argument either.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
See, all your talking about, is how you feel about things. Excluding for a moment that feels aren't arguments, the main issue with that outlook, is that it's also ignoring the feelings of other players. Players who's experience and purchases are just as valid to Cryptic as yours.
The irony of this statement. You're basically demanding that other players play the game the way you feel it should be played. That players who use builds to boost their DPS beyond what the average player does should stay out of public queues and restrict themselves to private matches. Those players have every right to the public queues, same as you, and that you feel they should do otherwise is no basis for an argument either.
Not quite, not the way I feel, because many others have, both here and elsewhere on forum and fb, and probably reddit too, complained about being unable to participate in simple Red Alerts and battlezones, because players with high DPS builds, are melting the targets before they canget a chance to engage them. So not just the way I feel, but a sufficiently held opinion, to say that it is more than just one or two disgruntled players, who need to up their game and learn how to fly What I have made, are some reasonable suggestions about how those who chase High DPS can do so, without impacting on others.
Are you saying then, that you think it's acceptable that someone may be rendered redundant in a queue, just so a High DPS player, can enter a public pug?
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
PS As I fear the EditGoblin: I'm not saying that High DPS players don't have the right to enter public pugs, of course they do. What I'm saying, is that it would be more sportsmanlike conduct, to enter those pugs with an appropriately leveled ship which isn't a DPS HeavyHitter, so everyone is operating on a more even footing.
Or, if players who wind up in pugs with High DPS players are indeed to be considered as redundant, it would be an idea to turn off the AFK system entirely. It's unfair that someone be either registered as AFK by the system, or reported thus by another player, when their ability to participate and contribute, is nullified by a High DOPS player. If they have to be effectively rendered redundant, then at least let them sit it out without fear of a two hour ban, and a loss of the rewards. At least that eay they can pick up the next pug and try again Like I said, perhaps that run someone goes on, is the only time their schedule allows them to log on. If they get an AFK ban, two hours means they can't then do anything else.
So in the interest of fairness to both High and Low DPS players, that is my thoughts and suggestion on how to ease the situation on both sides
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Are you saying then, that you think it's acceptable that someone may be rendered redundant in a queue, just so a High DPS player, can enter a public pug?
What I think and feel isn't the issue. You basically told another forumite that they cannot use their feelings as the basis of an argument. Meanwhile, that's exactly what you are doing by saying DPSers should stay out of public queues because it isn't "fair". That your feelings are also held by a group of others is irrelevant, as the opposing side has a number sharing their same feelings. You cannot have things both ways: argue your feelings while denying someone else the right to argue theirs.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Are you saying then, that you think it's acceptable that someone may be rendered redundant in a queue, just so a High DPS player, can enter a public pug?
What I think and feel isn't the issue. You basically told another forumite that they cannot use their feelings as the basis of an argument. Meanwhile, that's exactly what you are doing by saying DPSers should stay out of public queues because it isn't "fair". That your feelings are also held by a group of others is irrelevant, as the opposing side has a number sharing their same feelings. You cannot have things both ways: argue your feelings while denying someone else the right to argue theirs.
The point I (and many others) are making, is that it's not fair that DPSers are causing people to be redundant in pugs, and possibly even catching AFK bans as a result of being unable to participate. Again, I didn't say that they should stay out of public queues, I said that they should keep their DOS MegaBuilds out of public queues. Huge Difference. If they want to compete in a public queue, let them do so on the same footing as any regular player. aif they want to play with their DPS MegaBuild, let them do it in a private queue, where everyone is on the same footing.
Another perspective on the basic issue: PVP. It's considered bad form for an experienced/High DPS player, to lure a n00b into a PVP match, just so they can gank them, is it not? Same principle applies here. Low DPS/n00b, can't keep up with the High DPSer. Bantamweight boxers, don't get put into matches with Super-Heavyweights, do they. David Beckham doesn't sign up for a pub's five-a-side team, only to run around woth the ball, making everyone else look and feel worthless, does he.
Rather than shooting down my opinion and trying to make me defensive, how about acknowledging that the point I'm trying to talk about, is sportsmanship? A fair contest. A fair fight. Allowing everyone, both Low and High DPSer, to feel able to contribute to their pug, rather than relegated to the sideline. I might not necessarily always express it in the right way, but all I want, is for everyone to have a good time while playing
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
My take. Other than events (for the rewards) and the occasional RA (for the marks) I only run STFs with fleet mates. The only reason for that behavior is that I am not a member of the high DPS crowd and it was no fun at all to join a que, only to have one (or more) person in there wiping everything out almost before I could get a shot off.
Running STFs with the Fleet, unless we are doing Elites, the high DPS people will deliberately switch ships to "tone it down" a bit so we can all have fun with it, or they just make it a point to ease off on the damage. STFs with the Fleet are fun as they actually consist of something more than watching one or two people vaporizing everything on the map in seconds.
o high DPS people have aa right to enter any public que they feel like. Of course they do. Does high DPS players going into normal pugs and wiping the map have a detrimental affect on others, and their ability to enjoy the game ? Of course it does.
Rather than shooting down my opinion and trying to make me defensive, how about acknowledging that the point I'm trying to talk about, is sportsmanship? A fair contest. A fair fight. Allowing everyone, both Low and High DPSer, to feel able to contribute to their pug, rather than relegated to the sideline. I might not necessarily always express it in the right way, but all I want, is for everyone to have a good time while playing
Actually, I'm not talking about your opinion at all. I'm talking about you trying to tie your opponet's arm behind their back in the argument. You said they couldn't argue their feelings because it is no basis for an argument.
Here, I'll highlight it for you again:
See, all your talking about, is how you feel about things. Excluding for a moment that feels aren't arguments, the main issue with that outlook, is that it's also ignoring the feelings of other players.
Meanwhile, you continue to argue your point, "sportsmanlike conduct", because that's the way you feel the game should be played. It's like you're saying that only your feelings are valid and matter in the argument, because you want to deny others the right to argue how they feel about the issue.
You don't even seem to be really listening to anyone else anyway, because you don't even realize that I'm not arguing for or against your argument in the first place. You just seem to want to argue.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Rather than shooting down my opinion and trying to make me defensive, how about acknowledging that the point I'm trying to talk about, is sportsmanship? A fair contest. A fair fight. Allowing everyone, both Low and High DPSer, to feel able to contribute to their pug, rather than relegated to the sideline. I might not necessarily always express it in the right way, but all I want, is for everyone to have a good time while playing
Actually, I'm not talking about your opinion at all. I'm talking about you trying to tie your opponet's arm behind their back in the argument. You said they couldn't argue their feelings because it is no basis for an argument.
Here, I'll highlight it for you again:
See, all your talking about, is how you feel about things. Excluding for a moment that feels aren't arguments, the main issue with that outlook, is that it's also ignoring the feelings of other players.
Meanwhile, you continue to argue your point, "sportsmanlike conduct", because that's the way you feel the game should be played. It's like you're saying that only your feelings are valid and matter in the argument, because you want to deny others the right to argue how they feel about the issue.
You don't even seem to be really listening to anyone else anyway, because you don't even realize that I'm not arguing for or against your argument in the first place. You just seem to want to argue.
Of course I continue to argue my point. Not because I just want to argue, but because the point I (and others) am making, is going completely unacknowledged.
And you clearly are arguing against my point, or you wouldn't be trying to imply that I'm in the wrong for suggesting that the game be played in a sportsmanlike manner.
Of course the game - any game - should be played in a sportsmanlike manner! I've given examples of where high and low end contenders don't enter contests outside of the division, but you are deliberately ignoring that, just to try and dismiss my point, by accusing me of making it about how you believe I feel about the game. Why are you doing that? Why are you doing that to shut down and dismiss my opinion? My opinion is only calling for people to be able to play the game fairly.
I know Cryptic wants the game played fairly, and I know that for two reasons: Reason 1. It's impossible for a player to load weapons or equipment higher than their existing rank (meaning Cryptic want players to deal with each mission with a specific range of ability and a particular level of DPS output) Reason 2. They instigated a rebalance, preventing the previously-broken game mechanics to be exploited which allowed SuperHigh DPS. Sure, people can still do high DPS with a skillful arrangement of equipment, consoles, and piloting, but that is now capped at what anyone who puts forth the effort, research and resources can achieve. (meaning they don't want people exploiting the game mechanics)
So what's the issue? That you feel I'm employing a double-standard in ignoring someone else's feels over what you believe to be my own? I don't want to go down the two wrongs make a right, route, but all I'm trying to do, is suggest ways in which the game will be fair for everyone, not just my own personal situation. All anyone else, yourself included, is trying to do, is dismiss my opinion as unreasonable and try and dismiss me from the conversation. Is it any wonder that I put the feelings of other players, above the feelings of those arguing for their entitlement to not only do high DPS, but to do so in standard public pug, regardless of how it affects everyone else in that pug?
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
So what's the issue? That you feel I'm employing a double-standard in ignoring someone else's feels over what you believe to be my own?
Exactly. You're using a double-standard.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
So what's the issue? That you feel I'm employing a double-standard in ignoring someone else's feels over what you believe to be my own?
Exactly. You're using a double-standard.
If I'm using a double-standard, it's because the 'other side', is espousing their feels for their entitlement for their high DPS activities, to deliberately and knowingly behave in ways which 1. Negatively impacts the experience of other players 2. Which numerous players have complained about over a considerable period of time 3. Which Cryptic has put steps into place to prevent happening 4. Which could be entirely avoided simply by them playing the game fairly, and by entering public pugs with an appropriately-levelled ship, and keeping the High DPS builds for private content.
I (and many others) see that that behaviour is not only unsportsmanlike, but have cited numerous examples of how and why that is so. How about actually acknowledging the points being made, rather than keep dismissing and ignoring them, because of how they've been made?
"I fight for the Users!" - Tron
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
If I'm using a double-standard, it's because the 'other side', is espousing their feels for their entitlement for their high DPS activities...
Now you're making excuses for and justifying your behavior.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
@silverlobes#2676
Tell me, are you going to participate in this new No-Win Scenario/Kobayashi Maru event. If the answer is yes, are you aware that you being there ruins everyone's chances of getting anywhere further than the daily thingy + maybe couple of waves more. Since you have acknowledged yourself you are not a high-tier player, yet I am 99,9% sure this event will require very elite-tier builds to get anywhere far, you'd have no place in there. If you want to act in a sportsmanlike manner, you would only play this event in premades.
PS. I couldn't care less who joins the event pug queues, if I'm going to try to get to the max stage (or complete it, if it's possible), I'm going to do a premade with my friends anyway. Just pointing out a severe flaw in Silverlobes' arguments - he wants everyone else to act like a true sportsman, but has no problems stepping on others, according to his own rules.
If my "Fun" isn't you're "Fun" and you're "Fun" isn't my "Fun" and his "Fun" isn't our "Fun", Whose "Fun" is the right "Fun" ?.
i'm so confused
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
Bottom line is.. and people aren't going to like this but..
You're responsible for your own fun in games like this. It's just that simple.
If you find you can't compete in queued content and it's ruining the experience for you then you can either look to improve your own performance, play the content with fleet members or friends that play your style, or look for other ways to entertain yourself. It's selfish and hypocritical to try and force behavior or limitations on any group that doesn't play "your way." Rather you're a low DPS player that's trying to be more competitive or a ultra high DPS person that wants everyone to be on their level, it doesn't matter. Whoever you are, you have no right to dictate to others how they should play the game, period.
If you join public queues, you play with the public. Your game experience will be random, sometimes you'll be the hero, sometimes you'll be a spectator. If you want a specific experience in game content then you should play that content with a pre-made group that fits your style. Trying to dictate to people how they should play public queues is selfish and silly.
I think the thing that would matter most is intent and awareness.
If somebody were to join a queue only to show those lesser beings their uselessness and getting them possibly afk'd, that'd be a TRIBBLE move. Conversely, if somebody intentionally uses sub par builds and plays, or idles actively, to grief others, that'd be, too. Also, both sides (not TRIBBLE movers, but high and low DPS players) should be aware of how their playstyle might affect others, and if there is a way to lessen the impact on them, it'd be nice. "I don't care whether you're enjoying yourself, only thing that matters is me" isn't exactly nice either way. (This doesn't necessarily mean you'd have to change your playstyle just for the sake of others, but not caring at all wouldn't be somebody I'd like to play with, even if I were not affected negatively)
The problem of course is, that these things are never provable. So this will go nowhere.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
If I'm using a double-standard, it's because the 'other side', is espousing their feels for their entitlement for their high DPS activities, to deliberately and knowingly behave in ways which 1. Negatively impacts the experience of other players 2. Which numerous players have complained about over a considerable period of time 3. Which Cryptic has put steps into place to prevent happening 4. Which could be entirely avoided simply by them playing the game fairly, and by entering public pugs with an appropriately-levelled ship, and keeping the High DPS builds for private content.
If I'm using a double-standard, it's because the 'other side', is espousing their feels for their entitlement for their low DPS activities, to deliberately and knowingly behave in ways which 1. Negatively impacts the experience of other players 2. Which numerous players have complained about over a considerable period of time 3. Which Cryptic has put steps into place to prevent happening 4. Which could be entirely avoided simply by them playing the game fairly, and by entering public pugs with an appropriately-levelled ship, and keeping the low DPS builds for private content.
Both are equally prejudiced, elitist and entitled whining.
Comments
well yeah, because the UI was totally telling you also what rewards are in which queues and if you wanted - lets say....... temporal marks all they needed to memorise is order of letters in the alphabet.......
EDIT: shiet and I promised myself to not engage into this thread anymore xD
Sorry OP but this is wrong. DR was in class by itself and cannot be compared to S13 unless you are a DPS junkie.
Do you remember the signatures endeavor for DR "DR is the BEST expansion EVER and players Loved it" is there a similar outcry by the community now? nada...
In terms of empty queues. Have you been here before DR? Empty queues have been a chronic problem since way before the inception of the queue system. PWE can't do anything to counteract its affects but they were always dead after running a rep or events.
DR saw a huge decrease of players exiting the game due to XP being nerfed to oblivion (among other things) that affected everyone and also killed PvP that was on life support but you could always till find a group in PvP. Now it is past dead.
If you only care for DPS yeah certainly S13 messed up your play style. Lots of players that complained about space DPS being nerfed in S13 are indeed still around here while in DR those who got peeved never returned.
These days it is even hard to find an empty map in Risa or even ESD meaning that if you use logic the impact of S13 was very low in people exiting this MMO.
The queues have never been this empty. And, frankly, it's a bit disingenuous to pretend the queues were empty pr-DR too: they absolutely weren't. This time around, I think many ppl just left:
Certain people in this thread say that the DPS meisters have ruined the game for them and others, that they're using "exploits and broken mechanics" to set their numbers. I entirely disagree. I "joined" the DPS community at most a year ago, and I mainly did it as a source of information and to see my relative performance with the ship(s) I've been working on. I respect their limits on ship builds per channel, but at the same time, I care mainly about my numbers to see how well I'm doing with what I find "fun". My glass cannon escort regularly gets 80kish. And what did I do to get these numbers I have parsed for me(that's right, I'm so non-committal I don't even run my own parser)? I applied knowledge. That certain boff powers when used together give more than the parts themselves. Giving your ships equipment and calling it a "build" is like bringing out a car's engine and calling it a race car. What about the tires? What about the driver? What about the chassis?
A lot of what makes the "DPS" community so much different from the rest of the game is knowledge. Knowledge that the game itself does not give you. In fact, most of the default ships the game gives you are so not optimized, it feels like a chore just to fly them(never mind setting up the trays so you can reliably control your temporary ship). To not take my optimized escort into a mission I'm doing feels like I'm intentionally hamstringing myself. Like taking a healthy high school athlete and telling him to play a game of bastketball with crutches. He may still get it done, but he's not going to be using his full potential, and he's not going to enjoy it nearly as much. So if I'm not "allowed" to "ruin" other people's fun by bringing in my optimized and familiar ship, it's going to ruin my fun, and that is the catch twenty two of the DPSer vs anti-DPSer argument. Neither side wins.
The only thing that can bridge the gap, is if the knowledge filters through to the rest, and *gasp* turns everyone into a "DPSer". But even if it becomes more available to the regular player base, there will still be those who don't care to learn, or even change how they play.
If we got a simple tutorial on "chaining" and "stacking" abilities, I'd expect the average playerbase to perform closer to 20-30k, rather than have that be the start of the "DPS meisters" as put by a critic in this thread.
Also, based off of my observations, and the patch notes, the reason I believe all these people complaining about dying more are doing so are due to two main changes.
The former I believe is being applied to NPCs as well, resulting in higher damage in addition to their scaled damage for being NPCs. While the latter means those who used to get that resistance now feel the pain harder.
it rather suggests that your fun consists of being allowed to ruin other people's fun? That's what you're saying (maybe not whay you mean, but definitely what you said)
Nowhere have I said that DPS Chasing shouldn't be allowed period, but I do believe that it should be kept to private matches, private queues and regular mission content where it can't spoil anyone else's experience by preventing them from engaging. Like I illustrated the other day: A sportsman using a performance enhancing supplement, is not presenting their opponent with a fair contest, and in any such sporting event, invigilators and umpires will step in and take actions. People discovered to be using performance enhancing methods, have even been stripped of olympic medals, and in sime instances, banned from future competition. Apply that framework to this scenario, and all that's happened, is the performance enhancements have been taken away: No one's lost awards received nor been banned from future participation.
Is the information available about the game lacking? Absolutely. Do you remember the unofficial GTA Walkthrough books which were available? STO needs something like that which people can peruse at their leisure and refer to as needbe.
Is it possible to do better than stock? Absolutely. But your comparison of stock to a skilled athelete, is a false equivalency. If someone is a new player, then they don't know any better, and simply work their way through the content as presented. The game's really Not That Hard. Leveling an alt definitely brings more knowledge to the experience, meaning tricks previously learned can be applied which makes things run smoother, and the rank-locking of equipment and ships, means that someone can't load up with a loadout which will simply melt targets. And honestly, what's the point in doing that? Where's the challenge? One-shotting can be fun, but it soon gets boring, so why not just follow the content as presented?
See, all your talking about, is how you feel about things. Excluding for a moment that feels aren't arguments, the main issue with that outlook, is that it's also ignoring the feelings of other players. Players who's experience and purchases are just as valid to Cryptic as yours.
I'm all for good communities. Helping each other out and learning new stuff is good. Doing stuff which is going to affect other people's experience and enjoyment, is bad.
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
This is what it comes down to as far as I'm concerned. Pre-DR I had a rotation of around 10-12 different missions that I liked to play. These would all go within 2 minutes - most within 30 seconds.
Now there are 2 and I hear even they can take some time to go.
It's time to address the issue. Either incentivize some group play with the weekly missions (maybe the endeavor system) or move the game towards single player and revamp all the queues to be played with 1 or 2 players. Either way is fine with me.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Maybe. However, pre-DR queues were already rapidly dropping in popularity, making it more and more difficult to get them started (easier than now arguably, but way less than only a couple of weeks earlier). I remember that very well, because I was trying to get a rotation going for my main to fill in all reps, and after somewhat immediate starts before, it started taking longer, even up to 15 minutes (for the Undine one).
I guess - but it is just that - that a major factor was that this was about the time people completed their - relatively new - reputations and sets going with it and didn't "have to" play it anymore.
The irony of this statement. You're basically demanding that other players play the game the way you feel it should be played. That players who use builds to boost their DPS beyond what the average player does should stay out of public queues and restrict themselves to private matches. Those players have every right to the public queues, same as you, and that you feel they should do otherwise is no basis for an argument either.
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Are you saying then, that you think it's acceptable that someone may be rendered redundant in a queue, just so a High DPS player, can enter a public pug?
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Or, if players who wind up in pugs with High DPS players are indeed to be considered as redundant, it would be an idea to turn off the AFK system entirely. It's unfair that someone be either registered as AFK by the system, or reported thus by another player, when their ability to participate and contribute, is nullified by a High DOPS player. If they have to be effectively rendered redundant, then at least let them sit it out without fear of a two hour ban, and a loss of the rewards. At least that eay they can pick up the next pug and try again
So in the interest of fairness to both High and Low DPS players, that is my thoughts and suggestion on how to ease the situation on both sides
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
What I think and feel isn't the issue. You basically told another forumite that they cannot use their feelings as the basis of an argument. Meanwhile, that's exactly what you are doing by saying DPSers should stay out of public queues because it isn't "fair". That your feelings are also held by a group of others is irrelevant, as the opposing side has a number sharing their same feelings. You cannot have things both ways: argue your feelings while denying someone else the right to argue theirs.
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Another perspective on the basic issue: PVP. It's considered bad form for an experienced/High DPS player, to lure a n00b into a PVP match, just so they can gank them, is it not? Same principle applies here. Low DPS/n00b, can't keep up with the High DPSer. Bantamweight boxers, don't get put into matches with Super-Heavyweights, do they. David Beckham doesn't sign up for a pub's five-a-side team, only to run around woth the ball, making everyone else look and feel worthless, does he.
Rather than shooting down my opinion and trying to make me defensive, how about acknowledging that the point I'm trying to talk about, is sportsmanship? A fair contest. A fair fight. Allowing everyone, both Low and High DPSer, to feel able to contribute to their pug, rather than relegated to the sideline. I might not necessarily always express it in the right way, but all I want, is for everyone to have a good time while playing
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Running STFs with the Fleet, unless we are doing Elites, the high DPS people will deliberately switch ships to "tone it down" a bit so we can all have fun with it, or they just make it a point to ease off on the damage. STFs with the Fleet are fun as they actually consist of something more than watching one or two people vaporizing everything on the map in seconds.
o high DPS people have aa right to enter any public que they feel like. Of course they do. Does high DPS players going into normal pugs and wiping the map have a detrimental affect on others, and their ability to enjoy the game ? Of course it does.
S13 also force players to become more skill at flying their ship.
Actually, I'm not talking about your opinion at all. I'm talking about you trying to tie your opponet's arm behind their back in the argument. You said they couldn't argue their feelings because it is no basis for an argument.
Here, I'll highlight it for you again:
Meanwhile, you continue to argue your point, "sportsmanlike conduct", because that's the way you feel the game should be played. It's like you're saying that only your feelings are valid and matter in the argument, because you want to deny others the right to argue how they feel about the issue.
You don't even seem to be really listening to anyone else anyway, because you don't even realize that I'm not arguing for or against your argument in the first place. You just seem to want to argue.
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And you clearly are arguing against my point, or you wouldn't be trying to imply that I'm in the wrong for suggesting that the game be played in a sportsmanlike manner.
Of course the game - any game - should be played in a sportsmanlike manner! I've given examples of where high and low end contenders don't enter contests outside of the division, but you are deliberately ignoring that, just to try and dismiss my point, by accusing me of making it about how you believe I feel about the game. Why are you doing that? Why are you doing that to shut down and dismiss my opinion? My opinion is only calling for people to be able to play the game fairly.
I know Cryptic wants the game played fairly, and I know that for two reasons: Reason 1. It's impossible for a player to load weapons or equipment higher than their existing rank (meaning Cryptic want players to deal with each mission with a specific range of ability and a particular level of DPS output) Reason 2. They instigated a rebalance, preventing the previously-broken game mechanics to be exploited which allowed SuperHigh DPS. Sure, people can still do high DPS with a skillful arrangement of equipment, consoles, and piloting, but that is now capped at what anyone who puts forth the effort, research and resources can achieve. (meaning they don't want people exploiting the game mechanics)
So what's the issue? That you feel I'm employing a double-standard in ignoring someone else's feels over what you believe to be my own? I don't want to go down the two wrongs make a right, route, but all I'm trying to do, is suggest ways in which the game will be fair for everyone, not just my own personal situation. All anyone else, yourself included, is trying to do, is dismiss my opinion as unreasonable and try and dismiss me from the conversation. Is it any wonder that I put the feelings of other players, above the feelings of those arguing for their entitlement to not only do high DPS, but to do so in standard public pug, regardless of how it affects everyone else in that pug?
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Exactly. You're using a double-standard.
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I (and many others) see that that behaviour is not only unsportsmanlike, but have cited numerous examples of how and why that is so. How about actually acknowledging the points being made, rather than keep dismissing and ignoring them, because of how they've been made?
"I was here before you, I will be here after you are gone. I am here, regardless of your acknowledgement or acceptance..." - The Truth
Now you're making excuses for and justifying your behavior.
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Tell me, are you going to participate in this new No-Win Scenario/Kobayashi Maru event. If the answer is yes, are you aware that you being there ruins everyone's chances of getting anywhere further than the daily thingy + maybe couple of waves more. Since you have acknowledged yourself you are not a high-tier player, yet I am 99,9% sure this event will require very elite-tier builds to get anywhere far, you'd have no place in there. If you want to act in a sportsmanlike manner, you would only play this event in premades.
PS. I couldn't care less who joins the event pug queues, if I'm going to try to get to the max stage (or complete it, if it's possible), I'm going to do a premade with my friends anyway. Just pointing out a severe flaw in Silverlobes' arguments - he wants everyone else to act like a true sportsman, but has no problems stepping on others, according to his own rules.
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
i'm so confused
Hello rubber banding my old friend, time to bounce around the battlezone again, where are all my bug reports going?, out of love with this game I am falling, As Cryptic fail to acknowledge a problem exists, Shakes an angry fist, And from Support all I'm hearing are the sounds of silence.
Cryptic's. Duh!
U.S.S. Buteo Regalis - Brigid Multi-Mission Surveillance Explorer build
R.R.W. Ri Maajon - Khopesh Tactical Dreadnought Warbird build
My Youtube channel containing STO videos.
You're responsible for your own fun in games like this. It's just that simple.
If you find you can't compete in queued content and it's ruining the experience for you then you can either look to improve your own performance, play the content with fleet members or friends that play your style, or look for other ways to entertain yourself. It's selfish and hypocritical to try and force behavior or limitations on any group that doesn't play "your way." Rather you're a low DPS player that's trying to be more competitive or a ultra high DPS person that wants everyone to be on their level, it doesn't matter. Whoever you are, you have no right to dictate to others how they should play the game, period.
If you join public queues, you play with the public. Your game experience will be random, sometimes you'll be the hero, sometimes you'll be a spectator. If you want a specific experience in game content then you should play that content with a pre-made group that fits your style. Trying to dictate to people how they should play public queues is selfish and silly.
If somebody were to join a queue only to show those lesser beings their uselessness and getting them possibly afk'd, that'd be a TRIBBLE move. Conversely, if somebody intentionally uses sub par builds and plays, or idles actively, to grief others, that'd be, too. Also, both sides (not TRIBBLE movers, but high and low DPS players) should be aware of how their playstyle might affect others, and if there is a way to lessen the impact on them, it'd be nice. "I don't care whether you're enjoying yourself, only thing that matters is me" isn't exactly nice either way. (This doesn't necessarily mean you'd have to change your playstyle just for the sake of others, but not caring at all wouldn't be somebody I'd like to play with, even if I were not affected negatively)
The problem of course is, that these things are never provable. So this will go nowhere.
Can be turned into this:
Both are equally prejudiced, elitist and entitled whining.
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