So? We want to have fun with it. So it won't be a DPS monster or even a passable mine boat in your opinion. But your opinion is your opinion and not the opinion of everyone else.
My opinion is that it's a free ship, it doesn't look half bad and will probably still work just fine for anything the game has to offer.
Not sure why you are so fixated on DPS, I am not talking about that and I don’t have any problem with people flying a ship for fun. What I am trying to do is A: come with a new fun build that benefits from 5 rear slots. Something that no one else seemed to have manged to do either. B: understand why people keep suggesting it’s a mine boat when it looks to be one of the worst ships in game for mines. Which is anything but a mine boat.
To me saying its suggests a mine boat is like taking a cruiser without sci slots, without sci seating and without sci 2nd deflator and suggesting the cruiser is a sci boat. So I am trying to understand why people who think it suggests a mine boat are coming to such a very strange conclusion considering its massive limitations towards being a mine boat.
Surely there is some sort of reason why people are suggesting its for mines. I just do not see the benefit and those of you who keep saying so are refusing to explain. Well I am aware of the set bonus and pet those alone still leave it functioning very poorly with mines and it was being called a mine boat before we know about the set. Why is it being suggested its a mine boat just because it has 3/5 slots when mine boats do not work well in 3/5 configurations?
Its clear you are happy just fitting a standard build that works the same on a 4/4 or 5/3 ship but I want to fit something that benefits and makes use from 3/5 weapon slots and is fun. I also like to use mines but when doing that this ship looks to be right near the bottom of the list of decent choices.
“But your opinion is your opinion and not the opinion of everyone else.”
What I said is not an opinion it’s a fact based on facts. It might get disproven if someone comes up with something very creative but right now, no one else has managed to disprove it and I have tried hard myself and failed.
This post so eloquently states the exact way I feel about this ship.
We're not bashing on this ship because it's not a top tier DPS machine.. no one really cares about that. There are plenty of high DPS ships already in game, that genre is well covered.
We are simply perplexed that the development team opted to add a layout that currently nothing can benefit from, it's a very strange decision. Again, no one is saying it can't be adapted.. it can be used in the same way that a 4/4 beam boat can (in beam set up 5/3, 4/4, or 3/5 are effectively all the same.) But what is the point of introducing this new layout if the only thing you can do with it is work around it?
Like pottsey, I am still waiting for someone to come up with anything that this ship can do better because of it's unique layout. What is the point of giving a ship a new and unique layout if there is nothing that can take advantage of it? It's just very strange. The ship is still perfectly usable, slap some beams on it and have fun.. but in the end, there is nothing unique about it despite being the only ship in the game with a 3/5 layout. It has a unique setup that serves as nothing but an obstacle to work around.
Since 3/5 was intended, why are we on the 10th page of discussion on this topic?
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Since 3/5 was intended, why are we on the 10th page of discussion on this topic?
We know its intended but after 10 pages we still haven’t manged to figure out why or what to do with it. Sure we can work around it and run a build that is the same as 4/4 or 5/3 setup but that is just working around the 5 rear slot limitation. To take advantage and come up with a practical build that is unique and benefits from 3/5 now that is proving to be a challenge. So far no one has a manged to come up with any builds that benefit from 3/5
As seaofsorrows said it’s a unique layout that appears to have nothing that can take advantage of it. Perhaps if Tricobalt mines where not bugged 5 of those would work but right now they don’t benefit from a 3/5 setup.
Cryptic sort of has a history of this kind of behavior: They introduce a new feature or concept, but introduce it in such a lukewarm, half-assed way that the concept can never really be employed at any kind of usable strength, and therefore, is heavily panned. Now that the concept has been received unfavorably, it gets abandoned.
-example redacted-
Which leads to the obvious question: why is this a habit in the first place? Is Cryptic as an institution incapable of learning? On a related note, since you brought up the Dyson ships, I put some thought into what could have been a better-received implementation. Imagine, if you will, an escort with a more powerful form of the intel escorts' lance weapon (including extended range)... but the catch is that using it requires toggling 'siege mode'. In siege mode, the ship is immobile and cannot use its other weapons, but benefits from boosted shields (especially fore) and turn rate (yes, this stacks with the turn-while-stopped perk from the pilot spec).
No, no, you need probably two mines and a normal-ish build, and probably one additional old weapon. And pulling TBR. The shame part is the dual rear firing cannon's would be useful on this ship, if they were removable.
"..and like children playing after sunset, we were surrounded by darkness." -Ruri Hoshino
Still have 10 days to go if i am not mistaken.
It would be nice if there was some way to get in an early boost of 400 tokens by playing a mission.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
You'll see what you see now, a bunch of beam boats designed to compensate for the built in handicap, nothing more.
Hmmm....that is too bad. The Devs say they spend so much time on creating these ships. Maybe they should just tell players what they intended with 5 aft weapons used in the design.
It seems dumb to let that work languish because the one thought the players can come up with is: multiple 360 weapons or bust.
"Spend your life doing strange things with weird people." -- UNK
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
Its an intresting layout but there really isnt anything to take advantage of 3/5. The Dyson ships were garbage in my book, intresting idea but done so so poorly. The whole of the proton stuff was just bad, should have just made it its own new full energy type instead of doing what they did to it. This ship is better off as 3/5 can still be worked around better then a fused weapon.
But 3/5 on its own doesnt help in any way with the gear we currently have, and i seriously doubt they planned a bunch of new rear only weapons down the line for this ship. This shows about as much foresight as making the cardassian uniform only useable by new cardy characters. *Not deleting and remaking my day 1 alien gen cardy cause someone at cryptic thinks only new ones count*
No, no, you need probably two mines and a normal-ish build, and probably one additional old weapon. And pulling TBR. The shame part is the dual rear firing cannon's would be useful on this ship, if they were removable.
That doesn't utilize any aspect of the 3/5 layout, though. Mines are the only rear weapon. A build using less than 5 rear weapons is replicable without any loss of functionality using 4/4 layouts, and thus isn't benefitting in any way from this. So unless you've got a build that revolves around filling your entire shipbutt in mines, you're not getting anything out of this layout. Even if we were allowed to fill the entire shipbutt in DHCs, the only thing you'd get out of it over a 5/3 is a ship that has to fly backwards at -75% speed. This wouldn't be a build that actually utilizes the rear-facingness, either, just a forward-facing build in reverse.
Well I have come up with a build that’s unique to 3/5 but I cannot believe this is what the devs intended and as a mine layer it’s a pretty rubbish build, far below a decent mine layer build. But it is unique! Still I have no intention of using this ship as a mine layer its just to rubbish at it.
So fit the two mine sets Modulating Competition Mine and Advanced Inhibiting Chroniton Rapid Mines and the full set so you have access to Master of the Mined and Deep Space Mine. Now fit 3 of the decent mine launchers say 3 plasma or 3 Quantum. Disable the two set mines and only use the 3 decent mine launchers in combat.
You are now dropping the decent mines instead of the weak mines from Modulating Competition Mine and Advanced Inhibiting Chroniton Rapid Mines while still accessing the important part of the minelayer build of Master of the Mined and Deep Space Mine.
This is not aimed at anyone. What I see as the problem with mine layer builds is
A: 5 mine launchers doesn’t work very well even after the great patch change that improved mines. You get to much global cooldown. With some mine launchers 2 is still the limit!!!!. I hit cooldown problems with 3 medium speed mine launchers. Faster launchers or 4 launchers just amplify the problem. 5 is just so bad its not worth doing.
B: Even if you could fit 5 launchers without a cooldown problem you generally wouldn’t. A decent mine layer build is generally going to want clusters to maximize mine production and to use the two mine layer sets to access to Master of the Mined and Deep Space Mine. This means 2 Energy weapons, 2 or 3 clusters and 2 mine launchers fitted. Which doesn’t leave enough slots to fill 5 rears with 5 mine launchers. Having 5 mine launchers means losing the things that make a good minelayer build.
EDIT:
C: If you fit the optimal amount of mine launchers which tends to be 2 or 3 depending on launcher and another none mine rear weapons you are effectively the same as a 4/4 or 5/4 ship and so you may as well swap to one of the decent mine layer ships if being a mine layer is what your build is about.
In conclusions the Vorgon Ytijara Dreadnought Cruiser is very badly designed for a decent mine layer build and is going to perform worse as a mine layer build then other ships. If the Ytijara is designed to specialize as a mine layer it needs a major redesign and/or the equipment needs changing. A specialized mine layer ship shouldn't be performing worse with mines then the standard generic ships we use right now for mine layer builds.
It's not that hard. Current trash mobs stick to the player's rear arc, a mine layer ship with rear mounted firepower, TBR reverse and EWP is the natural counter to it. The gameplay takes care that this setup isn't really "top tier" but it's still fun. I think they simply theory crafted the concept and didn't really try to fit it into their own meta.
For example, I have a Nebula which uses inverse TBR, EWP and omni beams mounted fore. It drags enemies behind it, disables and shoots them and maybe adds a photonic shock wave to the mix. It's fun, but nothing for min-max crafting. But nothing that is released seems to be tailored for the upper 1%.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It's not that hard. Current trash mobs stick to the player's rear arc, a mine layer ship with rear mounted firepower, TBR reverse and EWP is the natural counter to it. The gameplay takes care that this setup isn't really "top tier" but it's still fun. I think they simply theory crafted the concept and didn't really try to fit it into their own meta.
For example, I have a Nebula which uses inverse TBR, EWP and omni beams mounted fore. It drags enemies behind it, disables and shoots them and maybe adds a photonic shock wave to the mix. It's fun, but nothing for min-max crafting. But nothing that is released seems to be tailored for the upper 1%.
I have an Orb Weaver that uses the same tactic. And it works because forward momentum + R-TBR tends to drag foes behind you. All fine and dandy, except that this Summer event ship has nothing decent to accommodate Mine abilities. So, at best, it will be a lame, half-baked Mine boat -- easily outshined by any other setup, and likely only remembered, for academic purposes, for how people tried to make Mines work with it, but couldn't.
I tend to agree because I think mine activation time is too lolg to even damage enemies behind you when you move but still, that's the theory behind it for sure
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I tend to agree because I think mine activation time is too lolg to even damage enemies behind you when you move but still, that's the theory behind it for sure
Rapid mines fix that but the drawback is you have to lose raw damage to gain the rapid activation time.
Rapid mines fix that but the drawback is you have to lose raw damage to gain the rapid activation time.
I actually haven't really been playing since some time before the expansion came out. Are rapid mines a mod or a special weapon, and to they work with tac abilities? Because with basic mine activation time, activating the mine ability that lets you plant multiple mines in a row mean the enemy (the hur'q mobs) simply fly with you past the mines
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Rapid mines fix that but the drawback is you have to lose raw damage to gain the rapid activation time.
I actually haven't really been playing since some time before the expansion came out. Are rapid mines a mod or a special weapon, and to they work with tac abilities? Because with basic mine activation time, activating the mine ability that lets you plant multiple mines in a row mean the enemy (the hur'q mobs) simply fly with you past the mines
It’s a unique mine launcher which fits in the rear but drops mines in front of your ship in a wide pattern with a very fast activation arm time. The advanced Inhibiting Chroniton Rapid Mine launcher works with tac ability’s although if you use it with disposal pattern the mines drop in a wider pattern then normal. The rapid mines are better then they sounds as if you move forward you are effectively flying into your own mine field and they arm fast enough to explode at the right moment. I have not tried them at top end speeds as I fly Cruisers/Carriers.
If you have the full set you can drop a self replicating mine field which automatically replaces destroyed mines for 90 seconds. The console part of the set Ordnance Accelerator is a must if you use mine, it’s very powerful.
The expansion was really amazing for mine layers. We had such a massive boost, for me one of the best changes the devs have done in years.
Well after extensive testing as expected the Vorgon Ytijara Dreadnought Cruiser is not only useless as a 5 launcher mine layer but its even worse then I expected as 5 launchers performs worse then 4 launchers. (I tried 5 photon then 5 Quantum without mine doffs).
Excluding a few unique launchers, never ever fit 5 standard mine launchers of the same type on any ship as it flat out doesn’t work if you try and fire them all. All you are doing by using 5 mine launchers is crippling your own mine damage. 5 launcher's is that bad that its massively worse then just fitting 3 or 4 launchers.
As a mine layer the only use I can see for this ship is to get the new console and stick in on a Vorgon Carrier to boost that ships mines.
Well after extensive testing as expected the Vorgon Ytijara Dreadnought Cruiser is not only useless as a 5 launcher mine layer but its even worse then I expected as 5 launchers performs worse then 4 launchers. (I tried 5 photon then 5 Quantum without mine doffs).
Excluding a few unique launchers, never ever fit 5 standard mine launchers of the same type on any ship as it flat out doesn’t work if you try and fire them all. All you are doing by using 5 mine launchers is crippling your own mine damage. 5 launcher's is that bad that its massively worse then just fitting 3 or 4 launchers.
As a mine layer the only use I can see for this ship is to get the new console and stick in on a Vorgon Carrier to boost that ships mines.
Not a surprising result, but thanks for doing the testing.
At least the console can be used in a set, and it makes a pretty solid Admiralty card.
Load up on Tet beams and one extra console for a beam boat with mines. If you pick up the other two pieces of Tzenkethi set from the lobbi store (expensive warning) then you not only get a boost to your Tet damage at 3 piece but also Tet damage based torpedos which eat off the other Tet damage you already stacked for a nice spikey punch.
This setup should work for any of the three Vorgon ships. Not sure how overly effective it can be since I don't have the lobi for the Tzenkethi stuff and how buffed the shield drain will be from these since pure science consoles are limited. I imagine the spare console space could be used for one of those. Maybe...
Comments
This post so eloquently states the exact way I feel about this ship.
We're not bashing on this ship because it's not a top tier DPS machine.. no one really cares about that. There are plenty of high DPS ships already in game, that genre is well covered.
We are simply perplexed that the development team opted to add a layout that currently nothing can benefit from, it's a very strange decision. Again, no one is saying it can't be adapted.. it can be used in the same way that a 4/4 beam boat can (in beam set up 5/3, 4/4, or 3/5 are effectively all the same.) But what is the point of introducing this new layout if the only thing you can do with it is work around it?
Like pottsey, I am still waiting for someone to come up with anything that this ship can do better because of it's unique layout. What is the point of giving a ship a new and unique layout if there is nothing that can take advantage of it? It's just very strange. The ship is still perfectly usable, slap some beams on it and have fun.. but in the end, there is nothing unique about it despite being the only ship in the game with a 3/5 layout. It has a unique setup that serves as nothing but an obstacle to work around.
DPS numbers have nothing to do with it.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
We just wanted to keep things going until you came along and asked a ridiculously stupid question.
If you have nothing to contribute, move along.
We know its intended but after 10 pages we still haven’t manged to figure out why or what to do with it. Sure we can work around it and run a build that is the same as 4/4 or 5/3 setup but that is just working around the 5 rear slot limitation. To take advantage and come up with a practical build that is unique and benefits from 3/5 now that is proving to be a challenge. So far no one has a manged to come up with any builds that benefit from 3/5
As seaofsorrows said it’s a unique layout that appears to have nothing that can take advantage of it. Perhaps if Tricobalt mines where not bugged 5 of those would work but right now they don’t benefit from a 3/5 setup.
I imagine this might change as more of them find their way into captains' hands. Perusal of r/STObuilds might be interesting...
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
It would be nice if there was some way to get in an early boost of 400 tokens by playing a mission.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
No, it won't.
You'll see what you see now, a bunch of beam boats designed to compensate for the built in handicap, nothing more.
Hmmm....that is too bad. The Devs say they spend so much time on creating these ships. Maybe they should just tell players what they intended with 5 aft weapons used in the design.
It seems dumb to let that work languish because the one thought the players can come up with is: multiple 360 weapons or bust.
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” -- Benjamin Franklin
That would be fantastic!
I for one would love to know exactly what they were thinking.
I'm wondering if there were a lot of empty bloodwine bottles in the recycle bin the day they came up with this ship.
But 3/5 on its own doesnt help in any way with the gear we currently have, and i seriously doubt they planned a bunch of new rear only weapons down the line for this ship. This shows about as much foresight as making the cardassian uniform only useable by new cardy characters. *Not deleting and remaking my day 1 alien gen cardy cause someone at cryptic thinks only new ones count*
Me too. Maybe they can use an upcoming podcast or something, to explain their rationale behind it. I would love it hear it!
^^ LOL. We have a winner!
So fit the two mine sets Modulating Competition Mine and Advanced Inhibiting Chroniton Rapid Mines and the full set so you have access to Master of the Mined and Deep Space Mine. Now fit 3 of the decent mine launchers say 3 plasma or 3 Quantum. Disable the two set mines and only use the 3 decent mine launchers in combat.
You are now dropping the decent mines instead of the weak mines from Modulating Competition Mine and Advanced Inhibiting Chroniton Rapid Mines while still accessing the important part of the minelayer build of Master of the Mined and Deep Space Mine.
This is not aimed at anyone. What I see as the problem with mine layer builds is
A: 5 mine launchers doesn’t work very well even after the great patch change that improved mines. You get to much global cooldown. With some mine launchers 2 is still the limit!!!!. I hit cooldown problems with 3 medium speed mine launchers. Faster launchers or 4 launchers just amplify the problem. 5 is just so bad its not worth doing.
B: Even if you could fit 5 launchers without a cooldown problem you generally wouldn’t. A decent mine layer build is generally going to want clusters to maximize mine production and to use the two mine layer sets to access to Master of the Mined and Deep Space Mine. This means 2 Energy weapons, 2 or 3 clusters and 2 mine launchers fitted. Which doesn’t leave enough slots to fill 5 rears with 5 mine launchers. Having 5 mine launchers means losing the things that make a good minelayer build.
EDIT:
C: If you fit the optimal amount of mine launchers which tends to be 2 or 3 depending on launcher and another none mine rear weapons you are effectively the same as a 4/4 or 5/4 ship and so you may as well swap to one of the decent mine layer ships if being a mine layer is what your build is about.
In conclusions the Vorgon Ytijara Dreadnought Cruiser is very badly designed for a decent mine layer build and is going to perform worse as a mine layer build then other ships. If the Ytijara is designed to specialize as a mine layer it needs a major redesign and/or the equipment needs changing. A specialized mine layer ship shouldn't be performing worse with mines then the standard generic ships we use right now for mine layer builds.
For example, I have a Nebula which uses inverse TBR, EWP and omni beams mounted fore. It drags enemies behind it, disables and shoots them and maybe adds a photonic shock wave to the mix. It's fun, but nothing for min-max crafting. But nothing that is released seems to be tailored for the upper 1%.
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I have an Orb Weaver that uses the same tactic. And it works because forward momentum + R-TBR tends to drag foes behind you. All fine and dandy, except that this Summer event ship has nothing decent to accommodate Mine abilities. So, at best, it will be a lame, half-baked Mine boat -- easily outshined by any other setup, and likely only remembered, for academic purposes, for how people tried to make Mines work with it, but couldn't.
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I actually haven't really been playing since some time before the expansion came out. Are rapid mines a mod or a special weapon, and to they work with tac abilities? Because with basic mine activation time, activating the mine ability that lets you plant multiple mines in a row mean the enemy (the hur'q mobs) simply fly with you past the mines
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If you have the full set you can drop a self replicating mine field which automatically replaces destroyed mines for 90 seconds. The console part of the set Ordnance Accelerator is a must if you use mine, it’s very powerful.
The expansion was really amazing for mine layers. We had such a massive boost, for me one of the best changes the devs have done in years.
Excluding a few unique launchers, never ever fit 5 standard mine launchers of the same type on any ship as it flat out doesn’t work if you try and fire them all. All you are doing by using 5 mine launchers is crippling your own mine damage. 5 launcher's is that bad that its massively worse then just fitting 3 or 4 launchers.
As a mine layer the only use I can see for this ship is to get the new console and stick in on a Vorgon Carrier to boost that ships mines.
Not a surprising result, but thanks for doing the testing.
At least the console can be used in a set, and it makes a pretty solid Admiralty card.
1x https://sto.gamepedia.com/Nukara_Strikeforce_Technologies
1x https://sto.gamepedia.com/Nukara_Appropriated_Munitions
3x https://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Tactical_Consoles#Spire
1x https://sto.gamepedia.com/Console_-_Science_-_Emitter_Refocuser
1x https://sto.gamepedia.com/Tzenkethi_Resolve_Set#Console_-_Universal_-_Biased_Configuration_Modulator
1x https://sto.gamepedia.com/Console_-_Universal_-_Sticky_Web
Load up on Tet beams and one extra console for a beam boat with mines. If you pick up the other two pieces of Tzenkethi set from the lobbi store (expensive warning) then you not only get a boost to your Tet damage at 3 piece but also Tet damage based torpedos which eat off the other Tet damage you already stacked for a nice spikey punch.
This setup should work for any of the three Vorgon ships. Not sure how overly effective it can be since I don't have the lobi for the Tzenkethi stuff and how buffed the shield drain will be from these since pure science consoles are limited. I imagine the spare console space could be used for one of those. Maybe...
1x https://sto.gamepedia.com/Weapon_Signature_Nullifiers_and_Amplifiers