MOD 3 had it good. You get hurt, you drink a health potion, it goes on a cooldown, but you play with friends and family the way you want in the time you want, in the moment you want, the way you want. If it was 5 DPS, it was 5 DPS, no questions asked. Was it harder with bosses? A bit. Was it faster without the support? Not really. Now? Just horrible, horrible, restrictive experience.
Sorry, cannot agree with your main argument - I was playing in mod 3, and my main at the time was a GF Tank...what you are describing as the situation in mod 3 was indeed the exact case. 5 DPS, all the time, every time. Talk about 'restrictive experience' - GFs were routinely kicked from PUGs for no other reason than because they were tanks, and would slow down the speed run by DPS types, who had so much life steal thanks to a bugged Endless Consumption boon that tanking was completely unnecessary.
To get what you want would mean going back to a time when better than 1/3 of the classes were rendered irrelevant in end game dungeons. Maybe that would be great for you if your preference is DPS, but it completely ignores what that change would do to players who don't focus on DPS classes.
Then you understand in which position Control Wizards are now. Question is - do you care enough? I doubt it.
The main argument is that Epic Dungeons are too hard and almost impossible to beat without a tank. This shouldn't be the case and it is not the case in pretty much entire content except Epic Dungeons. Just Epic Dungeons, mind you. Something should be done to make a distinction similarly to how the cards would increase the difficulty of the Hunts in Barovia, especially NOW since we've witnessed that it is possible to do so and apparently the mechanics for it exist.
Copy/paste into Epic Dungeon system something like that so that people can actually play in party compositions of their choice. If I want to bring 2 TRs and 1Hr I shouldn't feel the penalty for doing so once a mob runs and kills everything in the path.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Listen, there is content available for people who don't want to be challenged. If you don't want to be challenged play that content and until your willing to put forth the extra effort to complete the more challenging content you don't get to complain that you can't. It's as simple as that.
There is nothing "extra effort" to put in when everything else is made to work with any party composition bar Epic Dungeons. What you're suggesting is basically a defeatism stance. And such you are preaching to the choir.
"Don't do anything, leave it as it is" - What are you bringing to the topic? Any constructive solution? I do not see any. You continuously mistake my unwillingness to make a party oriented towards Epic Dungeons with my willingness to point out certain problematics which befall the Epic Dungeons themselves for a prolonged time now. The topic, once again, is not about me, but I did use myself as an example of a person who won't mitigate the problem by adapting a problematic design. A bad design is a bad design, as simple as that. The fact that you or anyone else would rather pick a Paladin alt and go intop a dungeon does not mean that you are correct, it just means that you chose to go with the flow without questioning the Epic Dungeon problematic.
From the perspective of a CW I can offer the lack of balance which I can find which reflects my gameplay in contrast to the gameplay found in Epic Dungeons. The Class is seriously put at a major disadvantage and I do not agree that buffing up a CW into a single-target damage dealer, the way they did with Disintegrate, will solve anything since the core Class mechanics befall and use CC effects.
Instead of forbidding 5 CWs in dungeons with a simple I/O mechanic, developers chronologically reduced all CWs powers along the line thus leading to the point where CC does not have any use in Epic Dungeons whatsoever, despite the fact that over 20 Control Wizard's Powers are, in fact, CC oriented.
The topic is trying to make a constructive solutions to allow players to express their opinion on the problematics of the party composition in Epic Dungeons.
If I want to succeed in beating the Epic Dungeon content I will bring out the best possible scenario and make a character which orients itself into Dungeon beating because for everything else in the game I do not need to make a specific build into a Single Target DPS role. This completely RUINS the gameplay I have in mind or gameplay I got used to playing a CW with my specific paragon build which, point of fact, I made in beta way before CW was even mentioned as any DPS, whatsoever.
I will ask you to at least be a bit more considerate towards other players and do not be as selective and defeatist when a proposition is made to change certain issues with the dungeon. And this goes for anyone who has a problem with the CW mechanics, the allowance of the CC effect in Epic Dungeons is not necessarily a bad thing since there won't be 5 CWs running dungeons all of a sudden, but those who'd like to try it shouldn't feel RESTRICTED for it simply because the Epic Dungeon's have an increased CC reduction which can't be mitigated even with an abundance of Controlling powers. If you do not understand how it functions, please, for the sake of topic, please absent from posting.
Topic is not about me, please stop trying to derail it by telling me to find a party. I see how you may be led to believe so, but topic isn't about me. On any, if all, next posters and replies which go around saying how META isn't strongly affected by SUPPORT Classes I will simply ignore such opinions, unless someone actually takes time and consideration to present a quality reply which explains why SUPPORT Characters are a necessity in the Epic Dungeons.
So far we've seen that
- Class restriction is a thing and can be put into the Public Queue. - The level of the content can be changed by value of the effect, as cards increase the difficulty of the hunts (some people put difficulty as the main argument for their enjoyment, but please understand that not everyone plays for the sake of difficult content, some people play just to have fun without necessarily having to prove themselves) - The Epic Dungeons have a horrible flaw in reducing the CC of the Elite Mobs, making a CW class undesirable for its controlling powers (A horrible flaw, indeed, making a CW into a DPS class without actually giving the CW the necessary damaging properties in contrast to other more desirable classes like GWF/SW/HR) - There are people who ran Epic Dungeons as Clerics and Paladins and who did not enjoy doing so because it feels like a job and a forced event which makes people to play with Alts in order to be Useful and Desirable in the content. This defeats the purpose of playing a video-game, essentially a FUN video-game.
Dear Developers, please know this. The reason why HUNTS in Barovia are a major success is because people can play with whomever they want to bring and have a party made of people who are all contributing the ways they want. I've ran hunts with all classes, constantly having fun with the friends and family. The Hunts had just the right amount of difficulty options in contrast to the prizes won. It is, by far, the most balanced-out content in the game itself!
If Epic Dungeons would follow this vein it would be a major success and a WIN-WIN situation for both Casual and Elite players without necessarily punishing anyone for their preference. LET people choose how they want to play it rather than forcing the META onto the people.
Thank you for consideration.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
You are also missing the point of the topic. The way I want to make a group would be like 1 CW, 1 GWF, 2 TR, 1 GF. Do you think this is a viable party composition for, lets say, CR? I don't think so.
Take it like this - In hunts I can bring whoever I want into the party. In Epic Dungeons I have to bring 4 support and 1 dps. That's essentially the horrible experience. Just because people got used to that doesn't mean that it is the right choice.
So who do you have to heal you? Maybe if you had a SW it could work, but if you don't want healing in your party and end up dying to losing health then that's your issue.
Are you suggesting to remove the need for tanks or healers/mitigators in the game? It used to be like that, when people ran 5x CW groups. And that was far less healthy for the game than what is happening right now.
Honestly it sounds like you are just whining for the sake of it and will no even attempt to find a solution to your problems.
I see that you didn't answer my question which is okay because I know that you are also just preaching to the choir.
Point of fact is that there are boons which allow shared Healing once the party member drinks a potion. There is Life-Steal which goes up to 8000 in Stronghold boon. I personally have around 11-12K LS with some extra on my Tiger. That gives me a lot of LS especially if I take some of the LS properties in Boons, like Tyranny ones. On top of that there boons which I use which give me a chance to steal HP or gain HP based on the damage done to me. There are items which effectively activate Defense/Healing or similar after a certain effect is taken into consideration. There is the Renegade buff which heals me. There are Stones of Health which fill 100% of HP. There is a weapon enchantment which boosts the Life Steal. There are enchantments which steal enemy's HP. There are pets which heal/tank. The Armors are giving more Defense. The armors are giving more AC. I prefer to use Armors with more AC. Ac on a CW? Count me in. And this brings me a great amount of surviving. When everyone else dies from Witch Ras AOE with 210% increased damage, I just stand in the circle and hold right-click filling up hundreds of thousands of HP through all of that combined.
In any RPG I've player the best idea is to have a good amount of
a ) Critical Chance b) Life Steal
Goes for any class, really. And imagine only if I'd spec into a full-blown Tanky CW character? So I really, really, really do not see the point to do so but I want to say that it is possible to do it and "needing the tank" is there for one and only fact
- Elite mobs hit too hard.
That's all there is to it.
Stay with me now - > Now with enough tankyness and with enough CC possibility I could, point of fact, manage to play with my friends and family by putting an effort into my Character I like to play with instead to be obliged into calling some Bubblewrap to join the team. And then some Lamp-man. And I could use CC to save everyone without necessarily bringing in the bubblewrap and lamp-man together to babysit me because my class gets one-shotted by boss or enemies alike.
A figure of speech, though, as I usually die with three shots by elites.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
So end-game is focused only on 4 Support roles and 1 DPS? The Meta demands it. The content demands it. it is not a question of being a newbie, it is a question of playing a class.
Well, the "meta" is not necessarily correct. I have only run CR a few times, but I have made over 200 ToNG runs, so I'll only talk about that.
A typical "meta" group would have the following:
A main DPS, typically a GWF or a HR.
A DO DC for buffing/debuffing ( that would typically be my role)
An AC DC for debuffing and power-sharing
An OP for buffing and generally keeping everyone alive
"Any" - a GF, SW or CW frequently fills this slot and provides a bit more buffing.
Now, a random group like that can typically do ToNG in under 20 minutes. and if you go for a more, well, unusual group composition, you may take a bit longer - groups with a single DC, a CW, SW, GF or TR as the main DPS, groups with a "secondary" DPS, yea....well...you may spend 2-5 minutes more, but that's all.
A slightly longer run is fine if you are running with guildies and/or RL friends, but if people are running with strangers, you just want a competent group that can finish as quickly as possible....and that's where you see the pressure to confirm to the "meta".
The content does absolutely not "require" the "meta", however - it will only make the run a bit shorter (assuming everything else being equal).
Now, if we had content where "1 DPS, 4 buffers" was not optimal, the only thing that would happen would be that we would get a new "meta" for that content. IT would not change the underlying fact that people do not like to waste their time by doing content in a very inefficient (or should I say "sub-optimal") way.
I read the whole thread ,in general ,i lean towards OP view of things.However in trrying to defend his point of view ,he went into exremes as stating no healers or tanks would be required: That would return us to mod 2-5 and as another Gf has stated,in endless frustration for some classes.
The current meta is unaccepetable cause it forbids a lot of talented players to play the game: too many DPS around too few spots. It needs fixing: a gargantuan task,simply cause the game for years has evolved around this pylar of gameplay. Buffs were always a problem ,but the knowledge to properly pick the correct classes and synergize them,was between a few.As years passed the player base capable of doing so has dramatically expanded and as such ,the problem came intot he light. The devs in their effort to counter this,introduced mega hiiting adds and bosses and from a point onwards ,unavoidable damage.
So we have a vivious cycle there: Buff parties trivializing content ,devs res[pond by making harder content ,which is only can bested by even more specialized parties.
Now what can be done?As said,fixing the meta is an impossimple task.However there are two classes that give too much to the game and that are the OP and the DC.Idk...
hey c1k, just wondering what do u think "imposible to catch mechanics" is/ does. also in case u didnt notice, its way to easy to parties to get enemies cced, thats why people dont want everything cc able again
Dear Developers, please know this. The reason why HUNTS in Barovia are a major success is because people can play with whomever they want to bring and have a party made of people who are all contributing the ways they want. I've ran hunts with all classes, constantly having fun with the friends and family. The Hunts had just the right amount of difficulty options in contrast to the prizes won. It is, by far, the most balanced-out content in the game itself!
I agree with some of your points but you're really not making a good argument comparing hunts to an epic dungeon. That's like arguing that "Hey I can run House of the Crocodile with 5 DPS! Why can't I do Cradle with just 10 DPS!" It's a ridiculous argument. Hunts aren't dungeons.
Yes, CC isn't used to it's best. Yes, there is a meta. Yes, the poor lowly SSCW is wanted about as much as a DPS SW (my main). But who cares. I've completed all but CODG and CR (Im on XB so we dont have it yet) using the random queue in a standard 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 DPS format. It's not impossible.
The game is designed for a tank to be in the group and a healer. You're trying to go outside the box with a 5 DPS party as much as others are by going 4 support 1 DPS.
It's like you decide to go into a donut shop and then get angry that you have to order donuts. Maybe you need to find a shop that offers what you want to eat.
Also, I remember when the OP came to XB. No one wanted to run with a GF. When AA was the rage, no one wanted a DO. Templocks in, DPS SWs out. There's always going to be something more desired in the game and it's always changing.
Maybe one day CC will be a big thing again. OPs/GFs will be in here asking for CWs to be nerfed because they lost their precious spot and can't get invites to a queue yet refuse to make their own party and try out their own group comps.
That's it, in your replies you pointed out your problem. You are still stuck in the past, in beta. Game evolved since then, you didnt and you wonder what's wrong and complain.
Yes, i am saying tank is a must and wizard isnt. It isnt biased and arrogant, its what devs want. Read the requirements for dungeons. 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps. No controller role in there if you didnt notice.
Tooltips, oh my. Do you even play NW? Yes, CW has control in the name, TR has trickster in the name as well. What tricks do you see us performing in the dungeons, lol ?
As pointed out, hunts arent dungeons. Use DonJon card and do the hunts with 5 dps with your friends and family, also record it so we can see how it went. Also, you speak of Epic Dungeons as if it was some minor part of NW. You are clearly wrong here. It is the majority of content, everything else is a road to get there. NW's main focus are epic dungeons.
Meta will always exist since its most effective way to deal with the content, be it 4 supports or 5 dps. You are just asking for new meta, it will never be ideal.
"Imagine if you would specc into a super tanky CW"... So what, even if you specced into another useless form? You want to take a role of shield wielders, temp hp masters, heavy plate armor class with your CW in a ball dress?
Since there is so much opposition to your idea, has it ever crossed your mind that your idea is wrong? Is that scenario possible in your world or you are always right?
While some supports should be toned down so other supports arent clearly a worse option, your idea of CC meta is something devs do not want. You would know this if you watched any dev stream where this was mentioned. If it will give you some piece of mind, there has been some talk about dungeon scaling. So, who knows, maybe mod15 will bring an opportunity for outdated builds to play newest content.
You keep using derogatory terms when you refer to classes other than your chosen main. 'Buff-boi GF' 'Bubblewrap' 'Lamp-man'. You're coming across as a class-ist and salty, you may wish to avoid such terminology if you want to be taken more seriously.
I told you you had no right to complain about not being able to do the harder content until you put forth the extra effort. Part of that extra effort is realizing the content is designed with certain roles in mind and building groups to cover those roles is essential.
The game changes, different classes get stronger or weaker in certain content and more or less desired by the community at large. All the classes have at one point or another had their time in the sun, certain classes are sunburnt and certain classes pastie pale. The balance isn't perfect, but what you seem to want would be even more unbalanced.
You want to take your CW and spec it into a tank to cover the tank role in a dungeon. In your ideal setup it seems every class would have the ability to spec as a tank to fulfill that role, and every class in your perfect design would be able to spec for dps to fill that roll and everyone would have enough lifesteal so that no one ever needs to play a healer role. I'm sure this idea was taken into consideration and found lacking. What you seem to want, what it seems like your trying to describe is a very badly designed game with no class diversity.
The idea of an epic dungeon is that you build a team. Teams require diversity to be successful. Different specialties combined together to create something greater than the individual. That team then can overcome obstacles that no individual specialty can by themselves. That is what an epic dungeon is, an obstacle that no one individual or specialty can overcome without the aid of others.
Building a dungeon team is like specc'ing your character. You have a certain number of points to spend on feats and boons to strengthen yourself so you choose the ones that synergize with each other for maximum effect for the role your character is built for. In a dungeon you have a certain number of slots to fill so you fill those slots with characters that synergize with each other for maximum effect.
As I've said before, you are arguing against one of the cornerstones of the MMORPG genre. A cornerstone so strong it has held up some of the most popular games of all time. The very bedrock below the mountains of games in the genre.
You don't seem to like this game. I've played games that I didn't like. I stopped playing them.
Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.
I think much improvement would be found by decreasing mobs ability to one round us, then increasing their HP by about 200%. It’s not fun to evaporate, nor be evaporated by mobs. Both are painfully boring. CC shouldn’t be about freezing everything to the point that it’s trivial. It should be about the ability to save a situation which is breaking down. To control and manage it and prevent the group from being overwhelmed. And even..when the mobs are cc immune(
Please do not try to reduce end-game content difficulty. What we need are dungeons that challenge those "meta-built" groups. Sure, there should be easy content for casual players, but we also need content that isn't such a joke for stronger teams. I want to go into a dungeon with a nearly full optimized party and struggle for 1-2 hours. Then I want good rewards. The rewards from running content like this should match the time invested in character development, team coordination, and all the wipes. I know that there are some people out there that would agree with me on that.
Man, all those TONG runs to build up alts with months and months of investment and character build and money spending only to have them seals available for me to have for doing the content I'm interested in atm. You see I disagree that the game benefits older and more elite players here, it does not. The game is extremely friendly to the newer players and the only place where it is not is Epic Dungeons (maybe pvp but that's different aesthetics and problematics altogether). PvP and PvE should have different set of powers to actually have some meaning so that we do not have issues like recently with SoD nor issues where all CWs lost CC powers because some PvP crazies were QQing on the forum how wizards are OP in PvP.
All that aside, the point of the topic is not to reduce the hard gameplay for those who want to play harder stuff. The point of the topic is that exclusivity shouldn't befall certain classes and those classes are right now OP and DC. And have been for some time now. This whole premise is a horrible idea and it does not work because it brings more issues to the classes overall.
Every change, everything practically wrong or bad in this game since MOD6 is because of the faulty mechanics of Epic Dungeons which do not benefit all classes.
Now, you say that INTRODUCING CC is bad? Why? What gives a Paladin the right to share a lot of power? What gives a Devoted Cleric the right to (DE)buff enemies and allies? Why are their powers good and CWs powers bad? Who are you to decide what is easy and what is not? The very control is the core function of the Control Wizard. The name itself says it all. Do not play with Paladins and Devoted Clerics, then, mr. HERO and I would like to just see how far will you get in a dungeon. Instead, play with a bunch of 13K IL characters the newest Dungeon without any of the SUPPORT characters in the party. Just plain damage.
When you beat the content "the way devs imagined" with a bunch of 13K IL characters please come back and show a video, especially if you can manage to do it in less than one hour.
There's talk and there's crazy talk. The META does not play with 5 TRs. End of story.
First of all, I wasn't trying to argue that the "META" as you say is 5 TRs...come on dude, that is silly! I'm not trying to troll you or disrespect you, I was only responding to something you said earlier (see the below paragraph). Just a note, you say that OPs and DCs have so much "more" to offer groups [compared to CWs], that is not the case. When a CW is built and played correctly it can deal excellent DPS and also increase the group's effectiveness quite significantly. A good CW is very valuable to a team, a bad one is not. That is true for ALL CLASSES. Some of my best runs involved a CW. There is a problem though, DPS classes are suffering from over-population. This breeds high competition and can hurt players' chances of finding a group successfully.
I'm saying that the content in this game is actually VERY easy when played correctly. The game needs to have challenging content for all players (including BiS parties). Even parties that are close to BiS make the current "end-game" content a joke. That TR video was ONLY to respond the fact that you said "it is about the arbitrary necessity to bring 4 support classes in order to have a good chance at beating the content". That statement is simply untrue, end of story. I'm not trying to spread hate and I'm not trying to argue back and forth with you for a long time. The reality though, is that you don't need 4 support to complete the hardest content in the game.
When you build a party with 4 support and 1 DPS, the content becomes too easy in my opinion. That is my argument. By the way, if you don't like to do epic dungeon content, as you say above, then why are you asking that the developers change it? What happens [to Neverwinter] when you can complete the hardest dungeon in the game with x5 13K dps players? Seriously, what do you think the game would be like if that was a reality? IT WOULD BE BORING for people who invest in stronger compositions.
Let me show you what Castle Ravenloft is like with a strong party. This video also technically HAS 2 DPS and 3 SUPPORT (the SW did excellent damage, even though he was focused on supporting). What are we supposed to do? Should we have to create our characters and/or party compositions weaker intentionally, just to have a challenge? Keep this in mind too... When uploading this video, I had to specifically write "this is not a speedrun" in the video description. That is because, currently, completing the hardest dungeon in the game in only 26 minutes (including cut-scenes and walking through the whole dungeon) is NOT IMPRESSIVE! This is just an average run in a good party. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NKzh4MKMPU
Just as a clarification, I am not complaining about the content. I think the developers are doing a great job of offering content to a variety of players. I just don't want "end-game" content to become any easier.
Let's not pretend like nobody knows what I'm talking about. The problem exists and it's everlasting. It is meta and has been for a long time. Parties go with 2 x DC and Paladin as those provide the best benefits for the past 9 mods or so. Both classes received both buffs and nerfs. Not so long ago it was 2 x OP and 2 x DC.
@pterias Offered the most constructive, well informed and objective info here in the topic and that I respect because everything he stated is truth.
There is this one very particular thing he wrote and it reflects on the changelog of the DC/OP duo/quartet combo. No matter how many nerfs were put forward to this particular problem remains in the game since these classes simply offer the most desirable and valuable benefits no matter which party composition is present since their (de)buffs are universal. Their powers work the same be it in regular content or in epic content. If anything they are like PETS that tag along the DPS classes and that is the core problematics of the inability for the party composition which goes around the necessity for such parties to exist at all. Their benefits are too great and as such they are meta. The runs done without a DC can't really be called "runs", they are more like trials or practice or challenges to "see how fast we can do it without DC", stuff like that which practically mock the choice to make a content that hard for every other class in the game.
A DO DC for buffing/debuffing ( that would typically be my role)
An AC DC for debuffing and power-sharing
An OP for buffing and generally keeping everyone alive
"Any" - a GF, SW or CW frequently fills this slot and provides a bit more buffing.
Now, a random group like that
Yes, your input and explanation I respect and value since you obviously come from the side of experience and knowledge. As you state, the typical run. And typical runs are far more desirable than anything else. Now, the million dollar question : Which CW paragon was in those parties the most? If you say SpellStorm CW was most prominent I will openly call you a liar and end it there. And I mean no maliciousness towards you, no, but I can't fathom that you, with so much experience, can't really see why the group you chose is not at all random but, in fact, very narrow and specific. And exactly those specifics are what make META runs since the synergy of the best options in the game, be it because of the developer's oversight or because of the intricate mechanics that benefit each-other, are what governs the next content which introduces a harder dungeon following the META orientation rather than all class inclusion. As you may notice, you are putting 5 classes into the role of DPS. Only two classes will have the room in the party compositions and only two classes will be constantly called for the party compositions and those are 2 x DC (Still the AC/DC orientation) and 1 x OP, the powersharehouse that also serves as a tank and also serves as a healer. it's abbreviation is an MMORPG allegory in itself! "OP".
and if you go for a more, well, unusual group composition, you may take a bit longer - groups with a single DC, a CW, SW, GF or TR as the main DPS, groups with a "secondary" DPS, yea....well...you may spend 2-5 minutes more, but that's all.
I like how you call them "unusual". This is a core example of just how "usual" it became for you over the time to have 2x DC in a party composition for the sake of running. It's like they are a firmament that can't be changed. It's like they are the pillars of the party composition, otherwise it is not just unusual, it's unheard of!
And this particular effect I've found in all of the people offering advice, completely disregarding the topic at hand, on how to choose a party unmistakably proving and confirming a simple fact - people got TOO USED to having a Paladin and DC in the party compositions. Those two are Okay and their (de)buffs are okay.
Everything ran with OP + DC is okay and mandatory and not at all easy, but everything ran with control effects (and I intentionally use it because it's the core function of one entire class itself) suddenly becomes "too easy". And yet I'm the "classist". It has to be some of the most biased argumentation I've seen on the forum and only reminds me of the time when PvP players, who no longer play anymore and thank Sharandar for that, were calling upon constant nerfs of all powers which affected the PvE and inevitably ruined the PvE system for many classes around. It is wholesome bad idea to have a few elitist players to govern how the game should be played.
No, I do not think that calling 2 x DC and 1 x OP is "RANDOM", more so because there's a lingering fact that they are mandatory. Problem is not in the classes themselves, but in the content which is made to use the given classes in the mandatory position. Saving TIME is the biggest benefit anyone can attain. And Inviting the OP and DC as a combination does exactly that. Everyone else is just not important, anyone can fill the role... And that is wrong thinking right there which plagues Neverwinter Online since MOD 6.
Now, if we had content where "1 DPS, 4 buffers" was not optimal, the only thing that would happen would be that we would get a new "meta" for that content. IT would not change the underlying fact that people do not like to waste their time by doing content in a very inefficient (or should I say "sub-optimal") way.
The key point is INCLUSION. Make more room for different party compositions. Make way for 4 DPS and 1 Support if that is how people want to play. Do not kill entire party because there's no Paladin there to take the hit. Why does a GWF have a Defense paragon to begin with when everyone and their grandma plays Swordmaster and looks over the shoulder anyone who plays an Iron Vanguard. Why can't people use different tanks if they so chose?
You see, that's the point I'm sending across, that's the point that I want to show and explain why it would be great to have something like that. And it would benefit everyone except very few people who've amassed extreme fortunes and for whom the game itself is constantly changing because of the whole economics system.
And more people in the dungeons benefits everyone since there's more material to go around. People would play with more builds instead of just specialized ones. I've seen a lot of negativity by people who SHAM others for playing a particular class. If such people are going to be rude towards others who play a particular class or a paragon, what does that tell you about the game or them?
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I read the whole thread ,in general ,i lean towards OP view of things.However in trrying to defend his point of view ,he went into exremes as stating no healers or tanks would be required: That would return us to mod 2-5 and as another Gf has stated,in endless frustration for some classes.
The current meta is unaccepetable cause it forbids a lot of talented players to play the game: too many DPS around too few spots. It needs fixing: a gargantuan task,simply cause the game for years has evolved around this pylar of gameplay. Buffs were always a problem ,but the knowledge to properly pick the correct classes and synergize them,was between a few.As years passed the player base capable of doing so has dramatically expanded and as such ,the problem came intot he light. The devs in their effort to counter this,introduced mega hiiting adds and bosses and from a point onwards ,unavoidable damage.
So we have a vivious cycle there: Buff parties trivializing content ,devs res[pond by making harder content ,which is only can bested by even more specialized parties.
Now what can be done?As said,fixing the meta is an impossimple task.However there are two classes that give too much to the game and that are the OP and the DC.Idk...
Thank you for your much appreciated input. Yes, the topic was derailed and I allowed myself to follow the derail couple of times and as such it is not of the best quality for reading. For that I truly apologize.
I will remind you right now that the "endless frustration" exists, only this time not for the classes which are called into the parties. Some classes get called twice in the same party for the benefits they offer.
Funny thing that those buffs multiply, for instance, but for instance (I speak about CW because I know CW the best out of other classes), one small 5% cold damage does not add for another CW in the group. Even when you have 2 CW's one does not benefit from the other doing the chilling (cold) damage. So whichever CW stacks a few Chills on the target gets to take all the fruits. And that's not all, of course.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I agree with some of your points but you're really not making a good argument comparing hunts to an epic dungeon. That's like arguing that "Hey I can run House of the Crocodile with 5 DPS! Why can't I do Cradle with just 10 DPS!" It's a ridiculous argument. Hunts aren't dungeons.
No, haven't been thus far. In case you didn't do a HUNT in Barovia with a Donjon, 300% More Damage and 100% aggro, I will please urge you to do so and then come back here to tell me that "hunts are crocodile level" which actually tend to get harder more people are in. So I'm not sure that you made a good allegory there but whatever, let's forget it.
The comparisons is based on what I've experienced recently. Look here :
> Epic Dungeons do not have a difficulty choices. > Hunts can be more difficult than Epic Dungeons.
All I'm saying, because I see now that it can be made or put to function, is - Make it so that I can put a card, a stone, a button, a quest path or whatever, which will allow me to play a less challenging Epic Dungeon without necessarily needing a OP+DC combo to grab my hand and lead me to the victory... I'm old, not a teenager to mess around for entire day, I want to have the ability to visit a new content because the Devs apparently have made a GREAT effort. My genuine curiosity for beholding the map and stuff they've placed is denied because of how the whole thing is made. I'm not one of those people who just seek the Chest at the end of the dungeon and how to get ahead of everything. The ability to visit a dungeon would be most welcomed. And not only that, the ability to gain a weapon, a Sun-based one, is denied once again because it takes (apparently, I don't know, just read in chats everywhere) 17 runs and can only happen once a week. A horrible design in mechanics, yet a great design in artistic value. Good voice acting for an MMO. General lore. Stuff like that interest me and I'm practically obliged to have papa OP and mama DC grabbing my Wizard hand. I don't want that either for me or for anyone else to occur. It's just equally bad as constantly casing Arcane Singularity in old Castle Neverwinter in turns. And I leave it at that. I know that you will see the point in this since I can already see that you are reasonable enough.
The game is designed for a tank to be in the group and a healer. You're trying to go outside the box with a 5 DPS party as much as others are by going 4 support 1 DPS.
No, 95% of the game is designed for you to go with any party as you choose and you never need a tank. You have dodge mechanics and the ability to deflect damage as well as the ability to heal without a cleric. When I go solo at beholders in SH I basically use their mechanics against them, find an opening and use it. Or I can use some of the newer items which add warriors to my aid. They are just distractions for the monster's aggro, but it works. Or I can use an orb which makes mirrors of my character so that I have 1-2 sec, which is all I need, to recover from something. I've met people in the game who thought that Beholders in SH should be TANKED. That was dumb. And the basic lure and dodge mechanics where I use aggro to my benefit and avert/distract one monster, while the team kills the other, was also called TANKING. That's one of the things that show just how used people are to "tanking" mechanics. And what's the point of TANKING? You just stand there because elite mobs kill anyone else, even elite dodgers and surival/def players, only to prove what? Tanks are needed? That's called forcing it onto players. That's not going to work unless people are going to gain a lot. And people won't gain a lot by having 2000 extra AD to salvage for a tank/healer role in the party composition. Whenever I had to play with tanks it was only and only because otherwise I'd die in a single hit. A just way to make all classes have a reasonable time would be to make content that benefits each class individually, or a combo of the classes. And this was the case before. Specialized parties based on the dungeon. Now it's each dungeon a specialized set of premade 2 x DC + 1 OP. It became a norm. And it shouldn't be a norm. It is unhealthy for the game, especially since all other classes are not nearly equal one to another.
a) Change the way (de)buffs work - Everyone unhappy b) Change the way DPS classes work - Some classes happy, some classes unhappy c) Change the content so that elite mobs do not have permanent damage reduction which puts (de)buff into another story - An interesting solution but would be curious to see how long it takes for the 2xDC meta to dissolve into oblivion. d) Change 5 DPS classes every six months or so - Horrible case scenario to which everyone took as a norm nowadays. e) Make modifiable Epic Dungeons so that people can play with or without meta builds - Best case scenario taking minimal effort and the changing solution are the mechanics behind the tarroka deck choices.
The thing is, you got used to playing like that, you do not care and that is a defeatist stance which will work up until something comes, a little change of one power or two, and entire meta will crumble with insane amount of hate directed towards developers and Cryptic. And for what? For accepting a norm rather than to make a constructive feeedback explaining the positive/negative effects it may or may not have down the line? Developers have limited resources and providing a worthwhile effort and explanation is what makes all the difference. The backlash against the AD changes recently was insane. The amount of fear and QQ was absurd. But it was a logical change as I could refine over 500.000 AD daily. That does not make sense to me and I didn't do it because I do not want to be a part of something that effectively ruins the game I enjoy playing. I do not want to see Cryptic and developers as enemies, but I will offer a constructive solution if I may on the points which strike out the most and prove to be ineffective in the longer run.
It's like you decide to go into a donut shop and then get angry that you have to order donuts. Maybe you need to find a shop that offers what you want to eat.
I've already stated that I did not venture into several Epic Dungeons due to the problem of my class being undesirable. I do not want to "fit in" playing a role I do not fit comfortable with and as such I will offer a significant explanation to why that would be just feeding the monster under the bed. Having such defeatism is just bad and I do not think that you can blame me for trying.
There's always going to be something more desired in the game and it's always changing.
Hopefully it will be a CC possibility since the CW was unjustifiably taken away pretty much all of it despite not changing or giving a significant buff to the class as a whole in contrast. It was a half-job, if any actually. CW is not really a DPS class, it's just that people took it as a norm since the CC CW is ineffective in pretty much anything else.
Now the same argument "Not desirable" can be also used for other things. The powers and effects of the OP and DC classes outshine other classes by a long margin. And the Epic Dungeon content supports it, which is the craziest idea in the game. And people still do not want to play it. Simply, they do not want to play it. DO NOT WANT. It is boring to be a MVP for many people. And people would rather choose to ignore the content than play it. This is possibly the first time I'm actually interested in the content as a whole, but I'm unable to experience it the way I'd like to and which I find to be normal.
Maybe one day CC will be a big thing again. OPs/GFs will be in here asking for CWs to be nerfed because they lost their precious spot and can't get invites to a queue yet refuse to make their own party and try out their own group comps.
Even with CC I do not think that anything will change. There will still be no place for a CW as a desirable class, however it would provide a CW some more options for surviving. What use for a CW to freeze mobs if he can't hit them with anything good? It would still be a support position the CW's in. Cw's originally a versatile class and many people forget this. Aura of Courage is just too good and is possible the best Class power in the game currently. I do not think that there's a better class power in the game atm. So I can openly say that even with CC possibility nothing would change in the meta. But, however, exactly the CC possibility would allow lesser IL people to enter and feel a bit safer for being in the content. And to increase it's effective use it would also provide a more versatile and strategic approach to gaming.
And this strategy is what people are learning now, again, to use so that they have a bit more party-composition effect at hand. The discussions on how to defeat Sisters. Although the mechanics are simple enough, what is not the simple thing is how much HP the sisters have. So all players who do not have 100% DR will find themselves in a bit of a bind. It is a horrible experience and the question is - will it stop or will developers continue to make Epic Dungeons which undeniably always have a place for DC+OP combo? I would hope so since this is a DnD game.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
That's it, in your replies you pointed out your problem. You are still stuck in the past, in beta. Game evolved since then, you didnt and you wonder what's wrong and complain.
Although you are continuously trying to derail the topic with your allegations which hold no relevance to anything I've stated and despite your petty attempts to belittle my efforts in explaining the problematics, I will indulge you and yet again answer to you. No, I do not "live in Beta" and I do not agree that Game evolved. Having 1xOP and 2xDC in the most optimal party is very old news. Perhaps you are the one living in the past and can't accept a proposition for changes nor can think of any improvements for entire game since you're only focusing on your own class at all times as evidenced in the topic I've opened on the SoD bug to which you undeniably referred to as "working as intended". Are you sure that you have no ulterior motives into visiting this particular topic since you, perhaps, blame me for opening the "SoD bug" topic myself? I'm sorry but it had to be fixed since the power was too good. One day you will understand that it was, in fact, a bug.
Yes, i am saying tank is a must and wizard isnt. It isnt biased and arrogant, its what devs want. Read the requirements for dungeons. 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps. No controller role in there if you didnt notice.
With your recent endeavor in the topic of "SoD bug" if I were you I would most definitely and carefully choose how to play with the phrases and sentences "What the devs want" since you yourself stated that Developers "made SoD double dip WAI" only to have a developer state that it is not wai. Do you honestly believe that you are in the position to state "what developers want"? Are YOU yourself a developer? How do you not see the level of your arrogance I do not understand, but for now I will leave that aside. No, stating that TANK is a must and Wizard is not exactly proves my point that there is an exclusivity at stake here and that some classes have a far more beneficial status and prove to be far more useful in a party composition to the point of it becoming a norm. You take it as a norm. You understand it as a norm, but the question is what does that "norm" do to the game? If I were you I would carefully read what ptieras wrote on the first page and try to understand that the game does not revolve around just what one person wants and it also does not revolve around just what developers themselves want. A compromise needs to be found in all case scenarios and it needs to be constructive. You are not offering any constructive explanation to why "A TANK IS A MUST", you are presenting it in a purely dogmatic way which is not dynamic nor explains nor even takes into the account that a Control Wizard, in this particular case, is a class that is not mandatory. On the mere premise of a CC involvement everyone who didn't understand the core problematics goes around like hyenas crying about how that would be "too easy". I'm sorry man, but if you find the game "too easy" you can simply use a weaker weapon or disable one or two bondings. Be the master of the game's difficulty by intentionally putting a handicap onto yourself. Don't try to project onto others how the game should be played or whether the Wizard is not mandatory and Tank is. It is, after all, just a video-game and it is, after all, something that changes over the time thanks to both the efforts of the community and the developers themselves, once enough resources become available. With the way you want the game to be soon enough you will, inevitably, have another nerf to the bonding runestones due to the way power creep works in the game. And once again you will have nerfs to the most used classes. If you actually took some quality time to sit, read, understand and research you would find out that I'm not some guy who just came from MOD 2 and QQ about how things are stupid now. And I'm not the onl,y person stating that OP+DC combo is a horrible exclusivist idea. However I can't go by around this since you've stated the next
The core epitome of being biased. This is all there is to your "objectivity" of any margin and I already knew this the minute your started derailing the topic, but I've played along since you're obviously having ulterior motives to which I can freely tell you that you're completely wasting your time. I'm not your enemy, i'm the friend of the player community and I hopefully work to get the benefit for everyone by pointing out what people in general want. IF you just like or prefer to play the game in the specific way you got used to, that's completely fine and all the power to you. But since you do not care for the Wizard class in general I can't take you as a person of interest to any constructive solutions be it this or any other topic which reflects the party compositions and the general problematic of the party compositions. Even if you strongly believe that you are just following the developer's will, you are not obliged to nor you are in any place of power if you do so. There are factors in the game which need a careful analysis and objectivity taken into the account and there are already people in the topic who've done so and have put forward not only the subtle essence of explaining it but also all their experience and expectations. And the best part? None of you who do not agree with what I've proposed are actually denying any of the presented facts. You just like the way things are and that's all there is to it. So you can't really bring anything interesting to the topic, I'm afraid.
Tooltips, oh my. Do you even play NW? Yes, CW has control in the name, TR has trickster in the name as well. What tricks do you see us performing in the dungeons, lol ?
You are, aware, however that Trickster Rogue is defined as both Striker and Controller. Yes, tooltips are important as they define the game. You are not helping by trying to appear smart. If tooltips do not matter then it needs to be addressed further. I also do not like how you take "tricks" as something that is cheap or bad as a notion. It can be many things. I see that you are not really familiar with the DnD notions, otherwise you wouldn't be stating things like that. There's also a rogue class called Arcane Trickster, a combo of a Wizard and Thief. "Trickster" is synonym to elusive, hidden, fiendish, backstabbing and similar. The Norse god Loki is a trickster, too. A Trick can be small, from a coin trick to the blade in the back or teleporting behind the target. Basically using Shadowy Disappearance is a Trick. Smoke Bomb is a Trick. Point is you're arguing semantics and you want to pretend like that there is no CONTROL in the game. Sunburst itself is a control power and DC uses it. Just one to name. Hell, smoke bomb is a controlling power too as it dazes enemies. But does it work on Elites? Why shouldn't it work on Elite enemies? Instead it is ineffective and not used for its dazing property. It just becomes weird to use it in order to "daze" enemies.
It is the majority of content, everything else is a road to get there. NW's main focus are epic dungeons.
How many people are playing Epic Fangbreaker Island now? Or Epic Spellplague? No, latest dungeon is the main point for people to go to only and only if they chose so. The Choice. And even with the latest dungeon there are more people who want to play TONG or CODG for the sake of farming. But there are far more people playing hunts. Point of fact.
I disagree with you, the game is not oriented towards playing Epic Dungeons. It's optional. You can 100% finish a campaign without going, ever, into Epic Dungeon. This used to be a thing back in MOD2 but now you do not need to run a dungeon in order to finish a campaign. Who lives in MOD2 now?
Meta will always exist since its most effective way to deal with the content, be it 4 supports or 5 dps. You are just asking for new meta, it will never be ideal.
Then don't be so negative about it, then. You are playing a DPS class that's pretty much good on its own. Why do you care for what I propose?
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
You keep using derogatory terms when you refer to classes other than your chosen main. 'Buff-boi GF' 'Bubblewrap' 'Lamp-man'. You're coming across as a class-ist and salty, you may wish to avoid such terminology if you want to be taken more seriously.
I'm flattered that you take into the account what I do or how I came as. I really wish you were correct as that would give you some sort of satisfaction. Luckily, appearances aren't everything in life and hopefully you will one day bring forth a valid argument instead to linger on logical fallacies in your inability to understand some of the most basic forms of satire. If "Buff-boi" or "Bubblewrap" insult you I honestly wish you all the luck on the internet. I can also name the Control Wizard a Popsicle or an Icenator, still would that trigger you to the point of having to find the most arbitrary reason to make a counter-argument against me? It's called "Straw argument". Should I call you on BS because you use The Bondooks avatar which is primarily satirizing the very "class" epitome? If you are watching that show and know what it's about then It can't possibly insult you the way I refer to the classes. Apparently, a Bubblewrap and Lamp is bad. Point taken. It was so important, correct?
I told you you had no right to complain about not being able to do the harder content until you put forth the extra effort. Part of that extra effort is realizing the content is designed with certain roles in mind and building groups to cover those roles is essential.
I'm really sorry master of the universe for not allowing me to provide something you do not deem I did. If only I had your magical powers to observe who did what and how and decide who has the right to do what and what not. Imagine if I told you that you have no right to write here unless you take time to understand the topic, just what a bs person would I be then, huh? But here you are with your agenda and crazy demands, anyway.
I'm starting to feel worried for your lack of perception. This topic is here to state that certain roles are overused and it's a time for a change since it's hurting the entire game one way or another. If you disagree that's fine. it is not like you've put forward any idea of your own other than portraying just how delusional you are thinking that you're in the position to tell other people what they can and can't do in their lives.
The game changes, different classes get stronger or weaker in certain content and more or less desired by the community at large. All the classes have at one point or another had their time in the sun, certain classes are sunburnt and certain classes pastie pale. The balance isn't perfect, but what you seem to want would be even more unbalanced.
Aaaah "The balance isn't perfect" and "mod 6 sucks". We're going somewhere, you and I, finally! Finally some constructive work, as small as it is, but it's still constructive.
How? Explain how is what I propose "unbalanced". Don't just tell me "seems like", use actual arguments, some facts, something tangible, do something with your knowledge and experience. Don't be a bystander who's going to attack anyone who wants to bring in some changes. Use proper counter-arguments against me and I will congenially accept my mistake and apologize if I consider that I was wrong. Don't just blabber at me and tell me what to do, that's a horrible idea and you'll only find a hard wall if you try something like that in the future. In fact, better yet, forget about me or my existence and just use the topic to say what you think a good balance is. That way you will do me a favor and yourself as well.
You want to take your CW and spec it into a tank to cover the tank role in a dungeon. In your ideal setup it seems every class would have the ability to spec as a tank to fulfill that role, and every class in your perfect design would be able to spec for dps to fill that roll and everyone would have enough lifesteal so that no one ever needs to play a healer role. I'm sure this idea was taken into consideration and found lacking. What you seem to want, what it seems like your trying to describe is a very badly designed game with no class diversity.
Actually, it has the most class diversity. The idea that OP+DC is a must is restrictive. In fact, it is so restrictive that the meta party takes TWO DCs. Please, explain why my proposition is "less diverse" than having 2DCs in a party which is already a thing and a reality in the game?
As for tankyness, most classes do. And most classes come with DEFENSE LS REGEN HP AC etc. And seems like it will only increase and increase further. GWF has a tanky role, too. It's useless against the Elite Monster hits. It is not a proper tank despite being a tank. A completely useless paragon. Why? Why can't it be useful? TR can have more deflect. SW/CW can be dependent on LS and control. HR could use traps to control and shoot from distance. And generally people who play PvP have the best idea how to utilize all the tanky, surviving abilities at their disposal.
Can you possibly fathom how many people I had to teach how to stay alive at Batiri playing hunters, rogues and whatnot? People do not know how to utilize the skills in the most optimal way for the particular content. They need someone to tank the batiri for them. Actually happened.
The idea of an epic dungeon is that you build a team. Teams require diversity to be successful. Different specialties combined together to create something greater than the individual. That team then can overcome obstacles that no individual specialty can by themselves. That is what an epic dungeon is, an obstacle that no one individual or specialty can overcome without the aid of others.
And by diversity you mean every team will have a 2 x DC + OP combo as a stakeholder and you just fill in the rest of the gap with whatever possible. Yeah, that's called the lack of diversity and this is what the topic is about. You have only 2 places to talk about "diversity" more. And that "Diversity" will befall on the most able DPS role.
Building a dungeon team is like specc'ing your character. You have a certain number of points to spend on feats and boons to strengthen yourself so you choose the ones that synergize with each other for maximum effect for the role your character is built for. In a dungeon you have a certain number of slots to fill so you fill those slots with characters that synergize with each other for maximum effect.
You're losing it here. You're trying to make it something extraordinary which it isn't. All you need is a couple of good tanks, buffers/debuffers and a hard hitting guy with a sword. Let's not pretend like it's some art form when meta is super-restrictive and demands 2DCs for most success.
As I've said before, you are arguing against one of the cornerstones of the MMORPG genre. A cornerstone so strong it has held up some of the most popular games of all time. The very bedrock below the mountains of games in the genre.
You are losing it again. I'm starting to enjoy the way you put things into splendor and grandeur. Hehe.
You don't seem to like this game. I've played games that I didn't like. I stopped playing them.
Yes, flawless logic. That's why I invested money in this game, the one I do not like and had a character since Beta, because I do not like the game. A splendid way to end your already biased point of view on pretty much everything. But, hey, you're still here and I openly call you to put forward some arguments class-wise. If you mained a CW you'd be singing a different song right now.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
First of all, I wasn't trying to argue that the "META" as you say is 5 TRs...come on dude, that is silly!
Hi again. It is also silly to come at me and try to counter-argument some very valid points by offering a video of 5TRs finishing a dungeon in one hour and 40 minutes. If I was making an appearance I'd show a bit more decency instead trying to belittle someone's effort to make some valid changes or ask people what they generally think and to provide a bit of information.
I'm not trying to troll you or disrespect you, I was only responding to something you said earlier (see the below paragraph). Just a note, you say that OPs and DCs have so much "more" to offer groups [compared to CWs], that is not the case.
The mere fact that Paladin is a tank, healer and a buffer speak enough. That is essentially three different roles put into one role. Furthermore, point of fact, Aura of Courage increases everyone's damage without any action whatsoever and also stacks with the Feytouched weapon that activates itself via encounters. Aura of Courage is a huge portion of anyone's damage and has been for a long time now since it also scales with the buffs and combat advantage itself. It is, by far, the most useful Class Power I've seen in the game since it also activates itself of all people in the party and damages in a huge aoe radius, sometimes simultaneously and with some powers by several times again and again, effectively becoming a broken overused power. As such it is TOO GOOD not to take into the account, especially when you already have a team of people. Point of fact is that some people got used to this form of playing and they will defend it as much as possible since they understand how the mechanics behind it works and will use it to utilize it in the dungeon content in order to gain unfair advantage instead to altruistically explain why certain power/skill etc is unbalanced and provides too much to the team. This is without power sharing. That is just one little skill. Include power sharing? Gain 20.000 power over the one you already have? Healing. Can heal anyone with action points. Need I say more? Tankyness. Can tank whilst smoking a cigarette. Nothing there to add.
DC? Gain even more power and the best insta-(de)buff in the game? C'mon, let's not pretend like they have the average powers. It is not the case if you know how the game works.
When a CW is built and played correctly it can deal excellent DPS and also increase the group's effectiveness quite significantly. A good CW is very valuable to a team, a bad one is not. That is true for ALL CLASSES. Some of my best runs involved a CW. There is a problem though, DPS classes are suffering from over-population. This breeds high competition and can hurt players' chances of finding a group successfully.
There is no "proper" way to play a CW. Nor a correct way. It's not about "single way" per se. It's about adaptability. And everything that any CW did or does is adapting to a situation by adding a bit of that, a bit of this. I personally have 4 different loadouts, but to play the way I'd like to I'd need around 6, especially now since the content has very different Arpen ratio.
I'm saying that the content in this game is actually VERY easy when played correctly. The game needs to have challenging content for all players (including BiS parties). Even parties that are close to BiS make the current "end-game" content a joke. That TR video was ONLY to respond the fact that you said "it is about the arbitrary necessity to bring 4 support classes in order to have a good chance at beating the content". That statement is simply untrue, end of story. I'm not trying to spread hate and I'm not trying to argue back and forth with you for a long time. The reality though, is that you don't need 4 support to complete the hardest content in the game.
You can't blame me for taking things literally when you yourself found an arbitrary literal thing to complain about, man... And you know yourself that I wouldn't propose that beating some content can't happen for this or that reason, but look at things from a bit more reasonable distance. I'm not here to make jokes and I don't expect you are, so why all this charade? Just a time waster, really. I'd rather put a reset to this whole conversation with you and start things over.
And I disagree that there is "correct way" to play an Epic Dungeon. There is only the way you are FORCED INTO playing which is dictated by the Content itself. And the FORCED part is OP + DC combination. Sometimes 2 x DC combination.
If something insta-kills you I'd say that that is a challenge enough. Why then build any Life Steal, Deflect, Dodge mechanics or HP / AC if there will be things that insta-kill you and only one or two Superman classes can save you? I'm just there talking a walk, but the Palladin is taking all the damage. And even if something hits me, pally still takes the beating. And yet people say CC is easy and I can't get hit with pally in team. Gimme a break. Pally is the big daddy. He takes you by the hand, or with that weird link for the sake of protection against the unavoidable AOE.
When you build a party with 4 support and 1 DPS, the content becomes too easy in my opinion. That is my argument.
And this is the only and most viable sentence you've provided in the topic and MOST CONSTRUCTIVE one. You are not at all denying my argument, you and I are on the same side since as you know META will look forward to play with more support than DPS. And meta is orienting towards that.
Right now CR meta is :
DC DC GWF GF OP
GF is there for the mere fact that a bit more damage is needed to finish the sisters at the start and a bit more tankyness.
By the way, if you don't like to do epic dungeon content, as you say above, then why are you asking that the developers change it? What happens [to Neverwinter] when you can complete the hardest dungeon in the game with x5 13K dps players? Seriously, what do you think the game would be like if that was a reality? IT WOULD BE BORING for people who invest in stronger compositions.
The people who get easily bored shouldn't be the ones to demand things in the game. If you want a harder challenge you put in a card and call it a day. Easy. Why should people be forced to play extremely hard content? I do not know any person who actually enjoys hard dungeon content. I only know people who enjoy beating the challenge. Problem is that they do so by utilizing the most broken aspects of the game into achieving that, finding the placeholder of the least resistance to do so, and consider themselves amazing for using the most OP classes in the game into achieving something. As you say "becomes too easy". I do not agree that such people who only care for how hard some content is should evaluate whether something is easy or not. This should befall the average player and the average player's opinion. It was done the same in the economic view not that long ago. An average player was earning around 100K ad daily and developers changed it to the Average earning. It prevents elitism. And elitism is bad. Thinking that content is too easy is ELITISM, make no mistake there. And generally I never proposed to change hard content. I only proposed to make it so that people can go with any party composition they want without necessarily dying if not bringing a tank or a DC.
Let me show you what Castle Ravenloft is like with a strong party. This video also technically HAS 2 DPS and 3 SUPPORT (the SW did excellent damage, even though he was focused on supporting). What are we supposed to do? Should we have to create our characters and/or party compositions weaker intentionally, just to have a challenge? Keep this in mind too... When uploading this video, I had to specifically write "this is not a speedrun" in the video description. That is because, currently, completing the hardest dungeon in the game in only 26 minutes (including cut-scenes and walking through the whole dungeon) is NOT IMPRESSIVE! This is just an average run in a good party. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NKzh4MKMPU
You are not showing me a strong party. You are showing me an idealistic party. A party born out of the necessity rather than their general congeniality and party orientation. It is simply said proving my point that people are using 2 x DC + 1 x OP and as such you are also the person to prove that this is a thing and that it shouldn't be as it effectively destroys actual party composition and diversity.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Just as a clarification, I am not complaining about the content. I think the developers are doing a great job of offering content to a variety of players. I just don't want "end-game" content to become any easier.
Nobody's asking that and your point is loud and clear. But content should be more approachable to a variety of classes, and something needs to be done for that since things are not moving progressively to include all classes equally.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Okay @c1k4ml3kc3 , You want to wash the conversation and start over. That is fine, I'm cool with that.
So let's keep this simple, a few realities have to be laid out and then we can see what is possible. I'm not here to argue with you, or start drama, so just hear me out.
Realities:
1.) No matter how the developers try to adjust the content, or the characters, there will always be people who crunch the numbers and optimize party compositions. There is actually a spreadsheet, that currently exists, which allows you to do exactly this. This means that eventually, after any change, there is going to be a "optimal" group composition that is [at some point] spread to the population of Neverwinter. Keep in mind, this includes each and every spec, gearload-out, buff/debuffsynergy, timing coordination, and all other things that can be optimized to make a run faster, smoother, and easier. Hell, people are measuring animation times for God's sake! If you are out there and reading this... (you know who you are )
The point here, is to say that no matter how you adjust the game, a "meta" will always present itself. I believe this is what @blur#5900 was pointing out. <b class="Bold">If you adjust the game, you will only create a new meta. I'm sorry bro, but that is a fact. The given meta might not even be actually optimal, but many players will still believe in it and they will construct their groups around it. Therefore, unless you can somehow make all options perfectly equal, some classes/specs/rotations will (at the very least by appearance) be less [or not at all] desirable for an optimal party composition.
2.) I believe that players should have a challenge in the game, at all levels (BiS and level 5, for example).
No explanation needed.
3.) I believe that all players need rewards consistent with their effort. Some players should have access to more valuable rewards than others. Some players should have access to RNG-based rewards, others deserve guaranteed rewards (for more difficult content).
No explanation needed.
4.) Neverwinter will, and should, have some content that is not able to be completed by some party compositions for some reason(s) (maybe bad specs, bad mechanics understanding, bad synergy, weak characters, etc etc etc).
This is a GOOD thing in my opinion. Hopefully this will be more true in the future (see below).
So moving on... I believe that #1 - 4 are realities for Neverwinter (at least to some degree), you might disagree. That is okay. If they weren't here at all, I would not be playing Neverwinter.
Here is the problem though. Personally (and I know others who feel the same), I want content that is challenging FOR ME. That is why #2 is up there. I am not 100% BiS on my toons, but I need a challenge or the game won't be fun. I want rewards that match how difficult the content is that we are doing. I know that other people feel this way too (think prominence shards) THAT IS AWESOME! Thank you Cryptic! That is fair in my opinion. Only some people have access to these drops currently. They are very easy to farm and last time I sold some, they sold above 100K AD per shard.
So here is the basis of the disagreement between you and I. In order to have the ideal in-game experience (given that those realities exist above) I need content that will challenge my party after we make a "meta" squad. Below is an example of what I, and possibly some others, want (if you are out there back me up here lol)...
Note: When I speak of this "content" I do NOT mean all content. I am only describing some theoretical content that is exclusive for "end-game" players.
1.) Content that is not possible to complete without a full BiS (or close to) party composition. This means that you will need to spend time building your character and testing and/or researching an optimal party composition BEFORE attempting to participate successfully. All 5 players will need to coordinate their builds, actions, and rotations to promote the chance of surviving and dishing out strong DPS. This content will also require the full team to be using voice chat to coordinate the mechanics of the run, otherwise it will be practically impossible to complete. NO, I don't want content that you can just burn through 1,382 Scrolls of Mass Life and call it a day. This content shouldn't allow that non-sense.
2.) Even with whatever the current "meta" party is, and almost a fully completed character, I want my group to wipe at least a few times throughout the run (not just because of some bug). I don't want a dungeon that can be completed over and over again with zero deaths. I also don't want a dungeon that is possible to complete quickly (let's say) in less than 1 hour. I want mechanics that challenge the strongest of parties. One example is a "DPS-check mechanic" I LOVE THESE THANK YOU CRYPTIC!!! For example, the second boss in CR has to be killed quick enough. If it is not, the boss will spin/break all four pillars and you are basically hamstered at that point. You cannot proceed. You can't just go in there with a "good" DPS and pass that boss. Currently, the other group members need to cooperate and coordinate their buffs and debuffs (at least to some degree) for the success of the run. Think of Orcus, from ToNG, and his big scary balls. THAT IS GOOD! However, I want it to be much more challenging than these are currently. I want a DPS check (just for one example) that is easily failed by a 5 man optimized 17K knowledgeable team.
Note: While I am talking about mechanics, I DON"T want stupid RNG unavoidable stuff. Cradle had a great P/P mechanic, I wish it wasn't made easier. HOWEVER, I don't want some RNG un-dodge-able hamster hand to grab me mid-mechanic, with no way of escaping...and fall to my death. That is LAME!
3.) In order to experience this challenge described in #1 and #2, I don't want to have to purposefully build my character incorrectly, avoid using strong elements in the game, or avoid constructing an "optimal party". This is a big problem between what I want, and what you want. How could Cryptic create a piece of content that is this difficult, and make it available for the casual player? I don't think they can. Furthermore, the completion criteria needs to be exclusive/fixed (if you would suggest a difficulty setting) otherwise it would feel like purposefully gimping my character or composition, just to receive a challenge. This leads me to the most important point, the deal breaker #4.
4.)In order for players to have incentive to run this content players need to have rewards that match the effort (or be chasing the glory of completion). This means we can't get some HAMSTER emerald and a salvage piece of gear. Most of us have 2M+ RAD (since Mod 14 began) now so salvage is basically useless unless we need to take a break from the game. The rewards need to be outrageous because the effort is outrageous. Also, I don't believe that the rewards in this type of dungeon should be RNG based. I think that players who complete this should be given a substantial reward that is GUARANTEED. Some teams might spend a few days trying to complete this content a single time. Make it worth their time! Also, include a title, because some teams might spend weeks trying to complete a single run!
5.) Given #1 - 4 this means that my "ideal end-game" content would be so difficult that I would never be putting "not a speed-run" in my video descriptions, for example. Just completing the run itself would be "impressive". Can you imagine how cool this would be for YouTube, the Neverwinter Community, and the forums? Imagine if the "impressive" videos [of this game] weren't completing some run 20 seconds faster, they were something like "Castle Hamster Sauce, 2Hr 37Mins Only 7 Wipes". Can you imagine how rewarding it would feel to complete a dungeon like that? It would give end-game players something to do that doesn't feel like killing mobs in Sharandar.
My final word here is that some of us want exclusive content for the added effort that we have invested in the game. I don't think that you can offer that and still make it accessible to a casual player. I don't believe that all varieties party compositions should be able to complete all the content.
Simply put, I don't think that content exclusivity is a bad thing in a video game (specifically an MMO). I think that adding something as competitive as this would really excite some of its [Neverwinter's] players, and be greatly appreciated. Specifically, I think that it would be better to introduce content that truly challenges people who optimize parties, rather than trying to take on the impossible task of making all party compositions equally viable.
Also just to offer some perspective to you... Personally my main is a CW too and has been since I started playing in Mod 4 on Xbox. Now my home is PC
@kriptical1 That's cool. I have never played Everquest so I wouldn't know.
I do really enjoy Neverwinter. I am not complaining in any way. I just wanted to point out that my "ideal" end-game might look drastically different than @c1k4ml3kc3 's "ideal". We can't have both. Right now it is somewhere in the middle.
I personally enjoy how much support classes are useful in the game. It makes the game more about coordination in my opinion. Currently, all the support characters try to time/overlap all their buffs and debuffs to make the DPS go "boom boom". Try joining together into a voice chat and doing that, it is a lot of fun! That, again in my opinion, is better than having end-game content that 5 DPS can clear. 5 DPS doesn't really take much coordination. It would just be 5 players doing their rotations over and over.
Furthermore, if content wasn't so challenging (and/or buffs/debuffs weren't as valuable) why would a group ever invite a support character to a party? If the best way to run a dungeon was 5 DPS then I think that DCs and OPs wouldn't have a single group to join.
Currently, any primary "DPS" [leaving out all support] class (TR/HR/GWF/SW/CW) is welcome in end-game content. Any of those classes can do excellent damage. In fact, every single one of these classes has the ability to kill ToNG's Orcus in 1 phase, that is how balanced [and easy] the game currently is. I think that our DPS classes are pretty balanced, actually. When played correctly [without any stat issues] all these classes can DPS end-game content in a competitive time frame. I'm not saying it is perfect, but it really isn't that horrible.
Finally, the game additionally offers that some support classes can do excellent damage. GFs and DCs are perfect examples of this.
I have tons of RL stuff for some days coming ahead. I probably won't be checking back in here, at least for awhile.
Derailing threads is your job, not mine, i just disagree with you. You said it yourself you made the build in beta so its obvious that you are stuck in the past. Learn how to play your class. TR has a control tree as well, it doesnt work in current state of the game, you have to be stupid to play it. Game has changed too much and you dont get it. You want to play the way you played in beta. Why would everyone else have to play the way you want game to be? Also, u forgot one question, did it ever occur to you that your idea is wrong or all your ideas are right? 1 OP and 2 DC arent from beta. I already made suggestion myself and supported meta change so no, i am not stuck in past. However, i disagree with your suggestion and many others do as well. I am not focusing just on my class, i play 4 classes but i do state my opinion when some CW who doesnt know how TR works calls something a bug. I do not post suggestions for other 3 classes since i dont know them well enough. Thats what you are doing, sticking your nose where it doesnt belong. I stopped replying on the SoD thread since your definition of Bug and Wai is different than mine so no point in prolonging it. Yes, it had to be fixed since it was too good, still wasnt bugged but since you dont know better you stick Bug to everything. Still, other classes are doing the same thing that overpowered SoD was doing. When are you gonna call them bugged as well? Or maybe you already did, all of them except your precious CW?
If you are gonna quote me do it right, i never stated SoD was WAI i said it wasnt a bug but again, since our understandings of both are different lets not do Sisyphus' work. Yes, i am a developer, what does that have to do with anything? Well seems like you cant read, requirements do say Tank is a must and Wizard isnt, not my words. I adapt and play the game according to current state, i do not bother wishing for something that aint happening. How do you offer a compromise by wishing for 5 dps meta? What are all those supports gonna do if your wish came true? I see no compromise in your idea. I agree that there should not be 2 DC in one party but i absolutely have no issue with 1 tank and 1 healer. In such composition there are still 3 dps. As mentioned before its holy trinity that many games have. Why should it change just because you dont like it? Why Tank is a must, because it has a shield and/or temp hp and is made to take the damage and generate higher aggro than others. Your CW isnt. Any dps class is not a must since there are too many of them, you cant fit all classes in a 5man group. So, at least 3 or more will sit out depending on the composition. Nobody is crying its too easy with CC, its a fact, there is a video as a proof. There is one CC power that works on bosses and you want them all to work. Are you freaking insane? Sorry i dont share your opinion of weakening myself so the game would be more challenging, dont bother with such ideas.
Yes Tank is a must and Wizard isnt, devs words. Keep telling them that you disagree, i will keep telling them that i agree. No ulterior motive whatsoever, specific classes can tank and specific classes can heal, all classes can dps. You want to take tank/heal spot with your CW, i disagree with that. You seem to have problem with opposition to your ideas and make up some conspiracies against you. People dont want 5 dps meta in general so stop bothering with such. I dont care about CW same as i dont care about any other class except my main, it has nothing to do with you or CW. If you feel that CW is not good enough as dps you can suggest a buff, still there would be people who will oppose that idea since they are much better at CW-ing, if they would agree with it they would only ask for a very, very minor increase in dps. There are plenty of things in this game which need attention but change of meta into what you want is not one of those things.
If you are taking tooltips seriously you know the game even less than i thought. Tooltips dont represent the true state of things. Some do, many dont. I never said there is no control in this game, thats what you assumed, there is control but it isnt affecting bosses. Its cheap and easy. It is affecting elite enemies except those special ones which devs didnt want to be affected by it.
All fbi, msp, tong, codg and cr are epic content, focus is on that type of the content. Hunts didnt exist couple mods ago. People will always farm the most whats most profitable and fastest and currenly those are tomb and codg. Everything is optional, even playing this game is optional, focus is still on epic dungeons.
I played this class when it sucked as well, it still has problems in specific conditions. I care because i dont want to play this game the way you want it. You presented your idea, those who oppose presented counter arguments. Whats the problem, cant handle different opinions?
When I refer to class diversity what I'm referencing is how each class has strengths and weaknesses, situations where they shine and where they fall short. Certain classes should be strong defensively and weak offensively. Classes with strong control abilities should have less damaging capability. Classes who buff their party to a high degree should fall short in other categories. Having different classes be stronger than others in different roles creates diversity in class representation in groups.
I don't think all classes should be able to fill all roles, I feel that specialization is a good thing. That being said I do feel that the game design does not currently allow for all classes to shine utilizing their built-in strengths. Primarily this can be seen in the form of any class capable of performing in a controller role. Secondarily I see this in an under-representation of healing roles. Not in that classes cannot perform the healing role but that healing is less useful than mitigation. Any class which can provide more mitigation to their group provides more usefulness than an actual healer. Healers are also further supplanted by the strength of life-steal.
The healing problem, and mitigation problem arises from the combination of two things. High incoming damage and incredibly overpowered healing ability. This creates a binary. A character is either alive with 100% health or is dead due to having been one-shot. No amount of healing can prevent a one-shot so mitigation becomes vastly more useful than healing. This further reinforces the GF/OP/DC paradigm. I believe a change to this subject would be vastly more beneficial than giving any classes the ability to fulfill different roles.
Second to the healing/damage issue; I believe that increasing the necessity and/or usefulness of control in dungeons would be beneficial to the overall health of the game and class diversity in dungeons. Enemies in dungeons, especially level 73 enemies are so resistant to control abilities (if not entirely immune) that it becomes more efficient to just brute force through them with damage and mitigation. This once again reinforces the current paradigm and forces any character with strong control powers to forego them and focus on dps. These characters are by default less efficient in this particular role (which is actually well designed) but since they have no place to truly shine they become under-represented in the overall community as they are either retired or fade into the background.
All this being said, I do believe that it would be beneficial to design future content in such a way as to further diversify role representation in dungeon groups. Not by changing the classes to fill more roles, but by changing the content design to take better advantage of the different roles the classes are already designed for. The issue here is that when your dungeons only have 3 bosses and there are only 5 members of a party it becomes increasingly difficult to provide enough options for all the roles that all the classes can provide to be represented therein.
Finally I think we all have to understand that not every fight in every dungeon can be designed to take advantage of every strength that all the classes have. There may be some fights where the control-focused character has less usefulness and other fights where there is less need for a full tank. What would be best would be to have more diverse fights in longer dungeons that can, over the course of the entire dungeon, fully utilize all those strengths at different times.
I'll cut this short and probably reply again later. I do believe this is a worthwhile conversation to have, especially if we can all (myself included) try to avoid defensiveness, hostility and vitriol.
Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.
Correct me please if i am wrong, but everytime i read posts and suggestions from you, i am reading between the lines: "Give me please my old Stormspell Thaum Cw back, so i am not in the need anymore to search for some useless classes like Tanks and Healers anymore.."
Bc that was the behavior now a long time ago and for an long time, also.
So let me tell you a true story (i have no intention to lie, or an proof that i don't lie, you can believe me or not).
The first guild i was in (Mod1-5) was "terrible" casual, we had no insight about buffs/debuffs/group synergys..stuff like that, most of us favourised Rainbowpartys, bc of no insight and clearly more fun oriented. The roles everyone from us was written in stone: A Tank has to tank, an Dc has to heal, and the Dps Chars had to dps (and try not to die..)
So runs like the old T2 Frozen Heart looked always like that...The Gf was running in circles with an bandwagon of adds behind him, the Dc had to look that the Gf was always full healed, the Cw was killing the tiny little Archers, bc they tried always to kill the Dc bc of heal aggro, the Gwf was sprinting around, also killing archers and helping out against Hrimnir, and then there was the tiny Tr facetanking and killing Hrimnir... Obviously such an Boss fight could take often more than half an hour, not to mention replacing an dps char with an Hr, bc back in the old days an Hr gains often more aggro an Gf could handle...
So you start asking, what is this all about???
We had "That Guy" in the Guild, an Loudmouth, saying he was in WoW the leader/member of one of the "best progressive" Guild (whatever this means)... He was new to NW, he played obviously an CW, we helped him to get the precious HV Set (and please remember how many runs it needed back, to get an full set..). And on the same day, he completet the Hv Set, he left our Guild with his Mainchar and was invited to an more "progressive" Nw Guild.. But i seemed to me he was not that welcome, bc he was constantly still in our Ts...
So and then he was constantly ranting about how silly we are, running rainbow instead of running with 5 Cw...
Sadly both Guildleaders took an break of the Game, so yeah we tried such an run 5 Cw all of the mwith Hv Set including mine.
So what i have to say, we were "speeding" through the adds, and we were clearly faster reaching the Boss room. And then the fight starts...Wave after wave after wave of adds, Hrimnir was standing there, with an sad face, bc noone was attacking him directly, the fight was a blast:
Shard of Avalanche here...Shard there....sudden storm....steal time...icy terrain was forbidden, bc "That Guys" Pc couldn't handle it....Singu here and Singu there...Oppressive force right after Singu....and all the damage we did against Hrimnir was only colleteral Damage....
So may i ask you, bc not only me is asking meanwhile the same, also alot of people do the same in some discord channels:
Is it this you want back?
Boring..really boring Boss Fight mechanics..waves of adds again, and they should be controlable again, so that your Cw could shine again, and is not in need again with some useless other classes?
Then let me give you some words of warnings, like @blur#5900 said...we are now in Mod 14, game has changed, and guess wich class would profit most about some "ancient" boss fight, it wouldn't be your Cw, nor the Gwf, not even Sw or Hr..
It would be the Tr..(build and geared with an specific guide)
And every Single Tr in the (meanwhile over 1k members) Tr discord would cheer this and cheer you if you are succesfull with your intention. So we (Trs) would not only be the maybe Fotm class like actually, we would become the most dominating dps class ingame, something i clearly do not want, being an succesfull alternative comparing to other classes is fine for me.
So here is the basis of the disagreement between you and I. In order to have the ideal in-game experience (given that those realities exist above) I need content that will challenge my party after we make a "meta" squad. Below is an example of what I, and possibly some others, want (if you are out there back me up here lol)...
Note: When I speak of this "content" I do NOT mean all content. I am only describing some theoretical content that is exclusive for "end-game" players.
1.) Content that is not possible to complete without a full BiS (or close to) party composition. This means that you will need to spend time building your character and testing and/or researching an optimal party composition BEFORE attempting to participate successfully. All 5 players will need to coordinate their builds, actions, and rotations to promote the chance of surviving and dishing out strong DPS. This content will also require the full team to be using voice chat to coordinate the mechanics of the run, otherwise it will be practically impossible to complete. NO, I don't want content that you can just burn through 1,382 Scrolls of Mass Life and call it a day. This content shouldn't allow that non-sense.
2.) Even with whatever the current "meta" party is, and almost a fully completed character, I want my group to wipe at least a few times throughout the run (not just because of some bug). I don't want a dungeon that can be completed over and over again with zero deaths. I also don't want a dungeon that is possible to complete quickly (let's say) in less than 1 hour. I want mechanics that challenge the strongest of parties. One example is a "DPS-check mechanic" I LOVE THESE THANK YOU CRYPTIC!!! For example, the second boss in CR has to be killed quick enough. If it is not, the boss will spin/break all four pillars and you are basically hamstered at that point. You cannot proceed. You can't just go in there with a "good" DPS and pass that boss. Currently, the other group members need to cooperate and coordinate their buffs and debuffs (at least to some degree) for the success of the run. Think of Orcus, from ToNG, and his big scary balls. THAT IS GOOD! However, I want it to be much more challenging than these are currently. I want a DPS check (just for one example) that is easily failed by a 5 man optimized 17K knowledgeable team.
Note: While I am talking about mechanics, I DON"T want stupid RNG unavoidable stuff. Cradle had a great P/P mechanic, I wish it wasn't made easier. HOWEVER, I don't want some RNG un-dodge-able hamster hand to grab me mid-mechanic, with no way of escaping...and fall to my death. That is LAME!
3.) In order to experience this challenge described in #1 and #2, I don't want to have to purposefully build my character incorrectly, avoid using strong elements in the game, or avoid constructing an "optimal party". This is a big problem between what I want, and what you want. How could Cryptic create a piece of content that is this difficult, and make it available for the casual player? I don't think they can. Furthermore, the completion criteria needs to be exclusive/fixed (if you would suggest a difficulty setting) otherwise it would feel like purposefully gimping my character or composition, just to receive a challenge. This leads me to the most important point, the deal breaker #4.
4.)In order for players to have incentive to run this content players need to have rewards that match the effort (or be chasing the glory of completion). This means we can't get some HAMSTER emerald and a salvage piece of gear. Most of us have 2M+ RAD (since Mod 14 began) now so salvage is basically useless unless we need to take a break from the game. The rewards need to be outrageous because the effort is outrageous. Also, I don't believe that the rewards in this type of dungeon should be RNG based. I think that players who complete this should be given a substantial reward that is GUARANTEED. Some teams might spend a few days trying to complete this content a single time. Make it worth their time! Also, include a title, because some teams might spend weeks trying to complete a single run!
5.) Given #1 - 4 this means that my "ideal end-game" content would be so difficult that I would never be putting "not a speed-run" in my video descriptions, for example. Just completing the run itself would be "impressive". Can you imagine how cool this would be for YouTube, the Neverwinter Community, and the forums? Imagine if the "impressive" videos [of this game] weren't completing some run 20 seconds faster, they were something like "Castle Hamster Sauce, 2Hr 37Mins Only 7 Wipes". Can you imagine how rewarding it would feel to complete a dungeon like that? It would give end-game players something to do that doesn't feel like killing mobs in Sharandar.
My final word here is that some of us want exclusive content for the added effort that we have invested in the game. I don't think that you can offer that and still make it accessible to a casual player. I don't believe that all varieties party compositions should be able to complete all the content.
Simply put, I don't think that content exclusivity is a bad thing in a video game (specifically an MMO). I think that adding something as competitive as this would really excite some of its [Neverwinter's] players, and be greatly appreciated. Specifically, I think that it would be better to introduce content that truly challenges people who optimize parties, rather than trying to take on the impossible task of making all party compositions equally viable.
Also just to offer some perspective to you... Personally my main is a CW too and has been since I started playing in Mod 4 on Xbox. Now my home is PC </p>
I have to say, this sounds like a game I wouldn't want anything to do with. If I didn't play NW but was interested in it, but then heard something like this being part of the end game, the entire game would become a hard pass for me. I know that because that exact chain of events has happened for me with other games in the past. My own opinion for a game I'd want to play is I don't think any content should be locked behind ultra-super-duper-high requirements like that. This game is already creeping in that direction and it really bugs me. If I wanted to play a super hardcore game like that, I already would be. They're out there. Instead I play this one.
I'm not saying you're wrong for wanting to play a game like that, not at all, but I will say that if either one of us got what we wanted, the other one probably wouldn't be around much longer.
This game started out as one game, but has been slowly morphing into another, on several levels. It's not fair to tell people that don't like the direction it's changing into to just suck it up and get on board. Imagine a weekend heavy metal music festival but on the second day most of the bands were playing pop music. People who already preferred pop music would be pleased and defend it, but the rest of us would be rightly pissed off. We thought we were gonna spend the weekend listening to the music WE SHOWED UP FOR, but now that we're here, we're stuck with this sellout HAMSTER. There's plenty of places to get that, not so many places to get what we want, and it's aggravating to see it going away.
Wow, the incredible walls of text are incredible!!!
@pterias I am sorry for making such a long post. I just wanted to explain the reasoning behind my preference for the distribution of content in a game. I wrote a lot of long papers in college, so writing is an easy way to express my opinion.
I have to say, this sounds like a game I wouldn't want anything to do with. If I didn't play NW but was interested in it, but then heard something like this being part of the end game, the entire game would become a hard pass for me.
I am sorry that you feel this way. I don't want to force my opinions on others. I was just trying to point out that all types of players need content that challenges them. Currently, in Neverwinter, there is a gigantic gap between casual players and "end-game" players. When I say "end-game" I don't just mean gear and stats. That is a very small part of being an "end-game" player, or team. I don't want to create another huge wall of text for you so let me just respond with one example.
There is a huge difference between a team with players that know their class, and another team where the players understand all classes. For example, some [support] players understand when, for example, the specific class/spec of DPS is ready to dump a rotation. Therefore, they can throw out all of their buffs and debuffs (so that they overlap) exactly when that specific DPS is ready to dump their strong rotation. Some DPS need to know to wait, while in other parties, the support needs to know when to wait. To end this example, I will talk about my DC. When fighting a boss with a Conq GF [as main DPS], I need to have all of my buffs and debuffs overlap [which is a very small window] exactly when the GF uses Griffon's Wrath [if that is what they are using]. This means, I need to understand how to time my rotation so that everything can be active at once. I need to understand all of the up-times for each buff, and debuff, to cause them to overlap [by using them in the correct order]. Additionally, [and much more important] if you are not watching your GF self-buffing himself, or herself, (or don't know what a Conq GFs rotation consists of) you might significantly slow down the run by applying your buffs/debuffs too early or too late. On the GF's [or any DPS] side of things, he or she might decide to attack or mark the boss before the AC DC have applied both Anointed Army AND Blessings of Battle to their character AND companion. This will significantly impact their DPS negatively for the entire fight (or at least for 30 seconds).
I could go on and on about each and every classes "jobs" in order to make a run really smooth and fast, but I think I have already established a point that most casual players probably don't pay attention to these synergies.
So my question is, how can Neverwinter challenge these types of players? ^ In my opinion, it is important to offer challenging content to all players.
I'm not saying you're wrong for wanting to play a game like that, not at all, but I will say that if either one of us got what we wanted, the other one probably wouldn't be around much longer.
Thank you for saying that, I also completed agree with you. I don't think that either of us should get entirely what we want. We are both on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to content distribution preferences.
Currently, I think that Neverwinter has done a great job of distributing content [to some degree] for all players. My only reason posting here is thatI don't want Neverwinter to make "end-game" epic dungeon content any easier, because it will trivialize the only epic dungeon content (some of us have) that doesn't [at the moment] feel entirely like running quests in Sharandar.
Some players will always try to optimize their builds and parties. There is no way to stop that from happening. Trying to change the current "EPIC DUNGEON PARTY COMPOSITION PROBLEMATICS", as this thread is titled, will only create a new meta. A new "ideal" composition (including builds/classes/rotations/timing/synergy/coordination) will manifest after any adjustments.
So end-game is focused only on 4 Support roles and 1 DPS? The Meta demands it. The content demands it. it is not a question of being a newbie, it is a question of playing a class. The two aren't comparable. I do not see how you connected the two to begin with. Just because you have the option of choosing a premade team of people willing to orient themselves to be most useful in the dungeon-only content doesn't mean that the content is okay or that there aren't people who play different classes nor it means that everyone should do the same. What is the point of doing that? By that logic let us all be CWs and return MOD3 with perma-freeze and make people to either play as CWs alone or do not play at all?
You are calling yourself a wizard and keep bringing up that ancient history when in mod3 GWF/SW complainers finally managed to make CWs nerfed in various topics. Changing the once fun CW ranged play to some melee type dot class?
Do you think it proves anything? Do you think it was some war won and must remember it? Do you think it was a fine example how to make the game better? Not at all! The game can be made better when player theorycrafters, testers, and developers works together and balance the game.
You could bring up mod10 HR and Sw rework when Sw with various bugs and imbalance was finally fixed with the great help of our theory crafters and developers.
Are you suggesting to remove the need for tanks or healers/mitigators in the game? It used to be like that, when people ran 5x CW groups. And that was far less healthy for the game than what is happening right now.
We are on very different opinion of what is being "unhealthy" in this game!
I remember I learned some CW basics from your pretty good guide and now just look at you...
Do you think nowadays gameplay is healthy when buffs and powersharing are clearly overbalanced in this game? Do you think its "healthy" when as guild leader I have to make rookies understand that they have to drop their TR/SW and start level paladin and clerics? And have to force 80% of my guild to have OP/DC when in need?
Those "unhealthy" times were the most fun in the game when you actually have to carefully position and watch your rotation. Those old dps players became very good pvp players after mod 3 and have very good knowledge about their class. Nowadays glass-cannon dps players basically crying for more buffs, accuse tanks whena single mob is attacking them, accuse clerics when dies, drooling like Pavlovs dog when buffs are up while 4 buffers/support are handed them the whole dungeon on a silver plate! These new dps players became nothing after buffs will be finally nerfed they will die in every minute and have to relearn the whole game... GWFs seriously accuse tanks when mobs are facing them after using daring shout, thinking that mark is some kind of dmg buffs. HRs are crying all over the place when their dots are not buffed over the moon.
Do you think that this egoistic dps gamer behaviour is "healthy"? Having 4 buffer/support to carry you is not unnatural? Most of these guys won't even be used after the dungeons will be finally demanding that you have to take care of you somewhat again! Oh and btw we never used 5 CWs. We used GWF and DC too then GF. And btw again we used 3-4 GWFs in gauntlgrym dungeon(Dwarf Kings Crypt).
So in a way you are both wrong with very frequent memorial of these ancient CW history and it helps nothing in finding a solution.
Maybe you should read Sharpedge suggestion summary for this game about the real solution. In short power and other stats need to capped. You just can't balance dungeons when everyone are running with 200k power with tons of DR and deflection.
I might add complete buff rework with strict dimishing return. Mod10 debuffs got it. It's time to finish the job. You can never hope changing a buffer to dps in a party w/o that.
Post edited by commanderdata002 on
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
Comments
The main argument is that Epic Dungeons are too hard and almost impossible to beat without a tank. This shouldn't be the case and it is not the case in pretty much entire content except Epic Dungeons. Just Epic Dungeons, mind you. Something should be done to make a distinction similarly to how the cards would increase the difficulty of the Hunts in Barovia, especially NOW since we've witnessed that it is possible to do so and apparently the mechanics for it exist.
Copy/paste into Epic Dungeon system something like that so that people can actually play in party compositions of their choice. If I want to bring 2 TRs and 1Hr I shouldn't feel the penalty for doing so once a mob runs and kills everything in the path.
"Don't do anything, leave it as it is" - What are you bringing to the topic? Any constructive solution? I do not see any. You continuously mistake my unwillingness to make a party oriented towards Epic Dungeons with my willingness to point out certain problematics which befall the Epic Dungeons themselves for a prolonged time now. The topic, once again, is not about me, but I did use myself as an example of a person who won't mitigate the problem by adapting a problematic design. A bad design is a bad design, as simple as that. The fact that you or anyone else would rather pick a Paladin alt and go intop a dungeon does not mean that you are correct, it just means that you chose to go with the flow without questioning the Epic Dungeon problematic.
From the perspective of a CW I can offer the lack of balance which I can find which reflects my gameplay in contrast to the gameplay found in Epic Dungeons. The Class is seriously put at a major disadvantage and I do not agree that buffing up a CW into a single-target damage dealer, the way they did with Disintegrate, will solve anything since the core Class mechanics befall and use CC effects.
Instead of forbidding 5 CWs in dungeons with a simple I/O mechanic, developers chronologically reduced all CWs powers along the line thus leading to the point where CC does not have any use in Epic Dungeons whatsoever, despite the fact that over 20 Control Wizard's Powers are, in fact, CC oriented.
The topic is trying to make a constructive solutions to allow players to express their opinion on the problematics of the party composition in Epic Dungeons.
If I want to succeed in beating the Epic Dungeon content I will bring out the best possible scenario and make a character which orients itself into Dungeon beating because for everything else in the game I do not need to make a specific build into a Single Target DPS role. This completely RUINS the gameplay I have in mind or gameplay I got used to playing a CW with my specific paragon build which, point of fact, I made in beta way before CW was even mentioned as any DPS, whatsoever.
I will ask you to at least be a bit more considerate towards other players and do not be as selective and defeatist when a proposition is made to change certain issues with the dungeon. And this goes for anyone who has a problem with the CW mechanics, the allowance of the CC effect in Epic Dungeons is not necessarily a bad thing since there won't be 5 CWs running dungeons all of a sudden, but those who'd like to try it shouldn't feel RESTRICTED for it simply because the Epic Dungeon's have an increased CC reduction which can't be mitigated even with an abundance of Controlling powers. If you do not understand how it functions, please, for the sake of topic, please absent from posting.
Topic is not about me, please stop trying to derail it by telling me to find a party. I see how you may be led to believe so, but topic isn't about me. On any, if all, next posters and replies which go around saying how META isn't strongly affected by SUPPORT Classes I will simply ignore such opinions, unless someone actually takes time and consideration to present a quality reply which explains why SUPPORT Characters are a necessity in the Epic Dungeons.
So far we've seen that
- Class restriction is a thing and can be put into the Public Queue.
- The level of the content can be changed by value of the effect, as cards increase the difficulty of the hunts (some people put difficulty as the main argument for their enjoyment, but please understand that not everyone plays for the sake of difficult content, some people play just to have fun without necessarily having to prove themselves)
- The Epic Dungeons have a horrible flaw in reducing the CC of the Elite Mobs, making a CW class undesirable for its controlling powers (A horrible flaw, indeed, making a CW into a DPS class without actually giving the CW the necessary damaging properties in contrast to other more desirable classes like GWF/SW/HR)
- There are people who ran Epic Dungeons as Clerics and Paladins and who did not enjoy doing so because it feels like a job and a forced event which makes people to play with Alts in order to be Useful and Desirable in the content. This defeats the purpose of playing a video-game, essentially a FUN video-game.
Dear Developers, please know this. The reason why HUNTS in Barovia are a major success is because people can play with whomever they want to bring and have a party made of people who are all contributing the ways they want. I've ran hunts with all classes, constantly having fun with the friends and family. The Hunts had just the right amount of difficulty options in contrast to the prizes won. It is, by far, the most balanced-out content in the game itself!
If Epic Dungeons would follow this vein it would be a major success and a WIN-WIN situation for both Casual and Elite players without necessarily punishing anyone for their preference. LET people choose how they want to play it rather than forcing the META onto the people.
Thank you for consideration.
Point of fact is that there are boons which allow shared Healing once the party member drinks a potion. There is Life-Steal which goes up to 8000 in Stronghold boon. I personally have around 11-12K LS with some extra on my Tiger. That gives me a lot of LS especially if I take some of the LS properties in Boons, like Tyranny ones.
On top of that there boons which I use which give me a chance to steal HP or gain HP based on the damage done to me.
There are items which effectively activate Defense/Healing or similar after a certain effect is taken into consideration.
There is the Renegade buff which heals me. There are Stones of Health which fill 100% of HP. There is a weapon enchantment which boosts the Life Steal. There are enchantments which steal enemy's HP. There are pets which heal/tank.
The Armors are giving more Defense. The armors are giving more AC. I prefer to use Armors with more AC. Ac on a CW? Count me in. And this brings me a great amount of surviving. When everyone else dies from Witch Ras AOE with 210% increased damage, I just stand in the circle and hold right-click filling up hundreds of thousands of HP through all of that combined.
In any RPG I've player the best idea is to have a good amount of
a ) Critical Chance
b) Life Steal
Goes for any class, really. And imagine only if I'd spec into a full-blown Tanky CW character? So I really, really, really do not see the point to do so but I want to say that it is possible to do it and "needing the tank" is there for one and only fact
- Elite mobs hit too hard.
That's all there is to it.
Stay with me now - > Now with enough tankyness and with enough CC possibility I could, point of fact, manage to play with my friends and family by putting an effort into my Character I like to play with instead to be obliged into calling some Bubblewrap to join the team. And then some Lamp-man. And I could use CC to save everyone without necessarily bringing in the bubblewrap and lamp-man together to babysit me because my class gets one-shotted by boss or enemies alike.
A figure of speech, though, as I usually die with three shots by elites.
A typical "meta" group would have the following:
- A main DPS, typically a GWF or a HR.
- A DO DC for buffing/debuffing ( that would typically be my role)
- An AC DC for debuffing and power-sharing
- An OP for buffing and generally keeping everyone alive
- "Any" - a GF, SW or CW frequently fills this slot and provides a bit more buffing.
Now, a random group like that can typically do ToNG in under 20 minutes. and if you go for a more, well, unusual group composition, you may take a bit longer - groups with a single DC, a CW, SW, GF or TR as the main DPS, groups with a "secondary" DPS, yea....well...you may spend 2-5 minutes more, but that's all.A slightly longer run is fine if you are running with guildies and/or RL friends, but if people are running with strangers, you just want a competent group that can finish as quickly as possible....and that's where you see the pressure to confirm to the "meta".
The content does absolutely not "require" the "meta", however - it will only make the run a bit shorter (assuming everything else being equal).
Now, if we had content where "1 DPS, 4 buffers" was not optimal, the only thing that would happen would be that we would get a new "meta" for that content. IT would not change the underlying fact that people do not like to waste their time by doing content in a very inefficient (or should I say "sub-optimal") way.
The current meta is unaccepetable cause it forbids a lot of talented players to play the game: too many DPS around too few spots.
It needs fixing: a gargantuan task,simply cause the game for years has evolved around this pylar of gameplay.
Buffs were always a problem ,but the knowledge to properly pick the correct classes and synergize them,was between a few.As years passed the player base capable of doing so has dramatically expanded and as such ,the problem came intot he light.
The devs in their effort to counter this,introduced mega hiiting adds and bosses and from a point onwards ,unavoidable damage.
So we have a vivious cycle there: Buff parties trivializing content ,devs res[pond by making harder content ,which is only can bested by even more specialized parties.
Now what can be done?As said,fixing the meta is an impossimple task.However there are two classes that give too much to the game and that are the OP and the DC.Idk...
also in case u didnt notice, its way to easy to parties to get enemies cced, thats why people dont want everything cc able again
Yes, CC isn't used to it's best. Yes, there is a meta. Yes, the poor lowly SSCW is wanted about as much as a DPS SW (my main). But who cares. I've completed all but CODG and CR (Im on XB so we dont have it yet) using the random queue in a standard 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 DPS format. It's not impossible.
The game is designed for a tank to be in the group and a healer. You're trying to go outside the box with a 5 DPS party as much as others are by going 4 support 1 DPS.
It's like you decide to go into a donut shop and then get angry that you have to order donuts. Maybe you need to find a shop that offers what you want to eat.
Also, I remember when the OP came to XB. No one wanted to run with a GF. When AA was the rage, no one wanted a DO. Templocks in, DPS SWs out. There's always going to be something more desired in the game and it's always changing.
Maybe one day CC will be a big thing again. OPs/GFs will be in here asking for CWs to be nerfed because they lost their precious spot and can't get invites to a queue yet refuse to make their own party and try out their own group comps.
Vicious cycle indeed.
Yes, i am saying tank is a must and wizard isnt. It isnt biased and arrogant, its what devs want. Read the requirements for dungeons. 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps. No controller role in there if you didnt notice.
Tooltips, oh my. Do you even play NW? Yes, CW has control in the name, TR has trickster in the name as well. What tricks do you see us performing in the dungeons, lol ?
As pointed out, hunts arent dungeons. Use DonJon card and do the hunts with 5 dps with your friends and family, also record it so we can see how it went. Also, you speak of Epic Dungeons as if it was some minor part of NW. You are clearly wrong here. It is the majority of content, everything else is a road to get there. NW's main focus are epic dungeons.
Meta will always exist since its most effective way to deal with the content, be it 4 supports or 5 dps. You are just asking for new meta, it will never be ideal.
"Imagine if you would specc into a super tanky CW"... So what, even if you specced into another useless form? You want to take a role of shield wielders, temp hp masters, heavy plate armor class with your CW in a ball dress?
Since there is so much opposition to your idea, has it ever crossed your mind that your idea is wrong? Is that scenario possible in your world or you are always right?
While some supports should be toned down so other supports arent clearly a worse option, your idea of CC meta is something devs do not want. You would know this if you watched any dev stream where this was mentioned. If it will give you some piece of mind, there has been some talk about dungeon scaling. So, who knows, maybe mod15 will bring an opportunity for outdated builds to play newest content.
You keep using derogatory terms when you refer to classes other than your chosen main. 'Buff-boi GF' 'Bubblewrap' 'Lamp-man'. You're coming across as a class-ist and salty, you may wish to avoid such terminology if you want to be taken more seriously.
I told you you had no right to complain about not being able to do the harder content until you put forth the extra effort. Part of that extra effort is realizing the content is designed with certain roles in mind and building groups to cover those roles is essential.
The game changes, different classes get stronger or weaker in certain content and more or less desired by the community at large. All the classes have at one point or another had their time in the sun, certain classes are sunburnt and certain classes pastie pale. The balance isn't perfect, but what you seem to want would be even more unbalanced.
You want to take your CW and spec it into a tank to cover the tank role in a dungeon. In your ideal setup it seems every class would have the ability to spec as a tank to fulfill that role, and every class in your perfect design would be able to spec for dps to fill that roll and everyone would have enough lifesteal so that no one ever needs to play a healer role. I'm sure this idea was taken into consideration and found lacking. What you seem to want, what it seems like your trying to describe is a very badly designed game with no class diversity.
The idea of an epic dungeon is that you build a team. Teams require diversity to be successful. Different specialties combined together to create something greater than the individual. That team then can overcome obstacles that no individual specialty can by themselves. That is what an epic dungeon is, an obstacle that no one individual or specialty can overcome without the aid of others.
Building a dungeon team is like specc'ing your character. You have a certain number of points to spend on feats and boons to strengthen yourself so you choose the ones that synergize with each other for maximum effect for the role your character is built for. In a dungeon you have a certain number of slots to fill so you fill those slots with characters that synergize with each other for maximum effect.
As I've said before, you are arguing against one of the cornerstones of the MMORPG genre. A cornerstone so strong it has held up some of the most popular games of all time. The very bedrock below the mountains of games in the genre.
You don't seem to like this game. I've played games that I didn't like. I stopped playing them.
CC shouldn’t be about freezing everything to the point that it’s trivial. It should be about the ability to save a situation which is breaking down. To control and manage it and prevent the group from being overwhelmed. And even..when the mobs are cc immune(
I'm saying that the content in this game is actually VERY easy when played correctly. The game needs to have challenging content for all players (including BiS parties). Even parties that are close to BiS make the current "end-game" content a joke. That TR video was ONLY to respond the fact that you said "it is about the arbitrary necessity to bring 4 support classes in order to have a good chance at beating the content". That statement is simply untrue, end of story. I'm not trying to spread hate and I'm not trying to argue back and forth with you for a long time. The reality though, is that you don't need 4 support to complete the hardest content in the game.
When you build a party with 4 support and 1 DPS, the content becomes too easy in my opinion. That is my argument. By the way, if you don't like to do epic dungeon content, as you say above, then why are you asking that the developers change it? What happens [to Neverwinter] when you can complete the hardest dungeon in the game with x5 13K dps players? Seriously, what do you think the game would be like if that was a reality? IT WOULD BE BORING for people who invest in stronger compositions.
Let me show you what Castle Ravenloft is like with a strong party. This video also technically HAS 2 DPS and 3 SUPPORT (the SW did excellent damage, even though he was focused on supporting). What are we supposed to do? Should we have to create our characters and/or party compositions weaker intentionally, just to have a challenge? Keep this in mind too... When uploading this video, I had to specifically write "this is not a speedrun" in the video description. That is because, currently, completing the hardest dungeon in the game in only 26 minutes (including cut-scenes and walking through the whole dungeon) is NOT IMPRESSIVE! This is just an average run in a good party.
It is meta and has been for a long time.
Parties go with 2 x DC and Paladin as those provide the best benefits for the past 9 mods or so. Both classes received both buffs and nerfs. Not so long ago it was 2 x OP and 2 x DC.
@pterias Offered the most constructive, well informed and objective info here in the topic and that I respect because everything he stated is truth.
There is this one very particular thing he wrote and it reflects on the changelog of the DC/OP duo/quartet combo. No matter how many nerfs were put forward to this particular problem remains in the game since these classes simply offer the most desirable and valuable benefits no matter which party composition is present since their (de)buffs are universal. Their powers work the same be it in regular content or in epic content. If anything they are like PETS that tag along the DPS classes and that is the core problematics of the inability for the party composition which goes around the necessity for such parties to exist at all. Their benefits are too great and as such they are meta.
The runs done without a DC can't really be called "runs", they are more like trials or practice or challenges to "see how fast we can do it without DC", stuff like that which practically mock the choice to make a content that hard for every other class in the game.
Yes, your input and explanation I respect and value since you obviously come from the side of experience and knowledge. As you state, the typical run. And typical runs are far more desirable than anything else.
Now, the million dollar question : Which CW paragon was in those parties the most? If you say SpellStorm CW was most prominent I will openly call you a liar and end it there. And I mean no maliciousness towards you, no, but I can't fathom that you, with so much experience, can't really see why the group you chose is not at all random but, in fact, very narrow and specific. And exactly those specifics are what make META runs since the synergy of the best options in the game, be it because of the developer's oversight or because of the intricate mechanics that benefit each-other, are what governs the next content which introduces a harder dungeon following the META orientation rather than all class inclusion.
As you may notice, you are putting 5 classes into the role of DPS. Only two classes will have the room in the party compositions and only two classes will be constantly called for the party compositions and those are 2 x DC (Still the AC/DC orientation) and 1 x OP, the powersharehouse that also serves as a tank and also serves as a healer. it's abbreviation is an MMORPG allegory in itself! "OP". I like how you call them "unusual". This is a core example of just how "usual" it became for you over the time to have 2x DC in a party composition for the sake of running. It's like they are a firmament that can't be changed. It's like they are the pillars of the party composition, otherwise it is not just unusual, it's unheard of!
And this particular effect I've found in all of the people offering advice, completely disregarding the topic at hand, on how to choose a party unmistakably proving and confirming a simple fact - people got TOO USED to having a Paladin and DC in the party compositions. Those two are Okay and their (de)buffs are okay.
Everything ran with OP + DC is okay and mandatory and not at all easy, but everything ran with control effects (and I intentionally use it because it's the core function of one entire class itself) suddenly becomes "too easy". And yet I'm the "classist". It has to be some of the most biased argumentation I've seen on the forum and only reminds me of the time when PvP players, who no longer play anymore and thank Sharandar for that, were calling upon constant nerfs of all powers which affected the PvE and inevitably ruined the PvE system for many classes around. It is wholesome bad idea to have a few elitist players to govern how the game should be played.
No, I do not think that calling 2 x DC and 1 x OP is "RANDOM", more so because there's a lingering fact that they are mandatory. Problem is not in the classes themselves, but in the content which is made to use the given classes in the mandatory position. Saving TIME is the biggest benefit anyone can attain. And Inviting the OP and DC as a combination does exactly that. Everyone else is just not important, anyone can fill the role... And that is wrong thinking right there which plagues Neverwinter Online since MOD 6. The key point is INCLUSION. Make more room for different party compositions. Make way for 4 DPS and 1 Support if that is how people want to play. Do not kill entire party because there's no Paladin there to take the hit. Why does a GWF have a Defense paragon to begin with when everyone and their grandma plays Swordmaster and looks over the shoulder anyone who plays an Iron Vanguard. Why can't people use different tanks if they so chose?
You see, that's the point I'm sending across, that's the point that I want to show and explain why it would be great to have something like that. And it would benefit everyone except very few people who've amassed extreme fortunes and for whom the game itself is constantly changing because of the whole economics system.
And more people in the dungeons benefits everyone since there's more material to go around. People would play with more builds instead of just specialized ones. I've seen a lot of negativity by people who SHAM others for playing a particular class.
If such people are going to be rude towards others who play a particular class or a paragon, what does that tell you about the game or them?
I will remind you right now that the "endless frustration" exists, only this time not for the classes which are called into the parties. Some classes get called twice in the same party for the benefits they offer.
Funny thing that those buffs multiply, for instance, but for instance (I speak about CW because I know CW the best out of other classes), one small 5% cold damage does not add for another CW in the group. Even when you have 2 CW's one does not benefit from the other doing the chilling (cold) damage. So whichever CW stacks a few Chills on the target gets to take all the fruits. And that's not all, of course.
The comparisons is based on what I've experienced recently. Look here :
> Epic Dungeons do not have a difficulty choices.
> Hunts can be more difficult than Epic Dungeons.
All I'm saying, because I see now that it can be made or put to function, is - Make it so that I can put a card, a stone, a button, a quest path or whatever, which will allow me to play a less challenging Epic Dungeon without necessarily needing a OP+DC combo to grab my hand and lead me to the victory... I'm old, not a teenager to mess around for entire day, I want to have the ability to visit a new content because the Devs apparently have made a GREAT effort. My genuine curiosity for beholding the map and stuff they've placed is denied because of how the whole thing is made. I'm not one of those people who just seek the Chest at the end of the dungeon and how to get ahead of everything. The ability to visit a dungeon would be most welcomed.
And not only that, the ability to gain a weapon, a Sun-based one, is denied once again because it takes (apparently, I don't know, just read in chats everywhere) 17 runs and can only happen once a week. A horrible design in mechanics, yet a great design in artistic value. Good voice acting for an MMO. General lore. Stuff like that interest me and I'm practically obliged to have papa OP and mama DC grabbing my Wizard hand. I don't want that either for me or for anyone else to occur. It's just equally bad as constantly casing Arcane Singularity in old Castle Neverwinter in turns. And I leave it at that. I know that you will see the point in this since I can already see that you are reasonable enough. Well I care and players should care since this affects everyone playing. No, 95% of the game is designed for you to go with any party as you choose and you never need a tank. You have dodge mechanics and the ability to deflect damage as well as the ability to heal without a cleric. When I go solo at beholders in SH I basically use their mechanics against them, find an opening and use it. Or I can use some of the newer items which add warriors to my aid. They are just distractions for the monster's aggro, but it works. Or I can use an orb which makes mirrors of my character so that I have 1-2 sec, which is all I need, to recover from something.
I've met people in the game who thought that Beholders in SH should be TANKED. That was dumb. And the basic lure and dodge mechanics where I use aggro to my benefit and avert/distract one monster, while the team kills the other, was also called TANKING. That's one of the things that show just how used people are to "tanking" mechanics.
And what's the point of TANKING? You just stand there because elite mobs kill anyone else, even elite dodgers and surival/def players, only to prove what? Tanks are needed? That's called forcing it onto players. That's not going to work unless people are going to gain a lot. And people won't gain a lot by having 2000 extra AD to salvage for a tank/healer role in the party composition.
Whenever I had to play with tanks it was only and only because otherwise I'd die in a single hit. A just way to make all classes have a reasonable time would be to make content that benefits each class individually, or a combo of the classes. And this was the case before. Specialized parties based on the dungeon. Now it's each dungeon a specialized set of premade 2 x DC + 1 OP. It became a norm. And it shouldn't be a norm. It is unhealthy for the game, especially since all other classes are not nearly equal one to another.
a) Change the way (de)buffs work - Everyone unhappy
b) Change the way DPS classes work - Some classes happy, some classes unhappy
c) Change the content so that elite mobs do not have permanent damage reduction which puts (de)buff into another story - An interesting solution but would be curious to see how long it takes for the 2xDC meta to dissolve into oblivion.
d) Change 5 DPS classes every six months or so - Horrible case scenario to which everyone took as a norm nowadays.
e) Make modifiable Epic Dungeons so that people can play with or without meta builds - Best case scenario taking minimal effort and the changing solution are the mechanics behind the tarroka deck choices.
The thing is, you got used to playing like that, you do not care and that is a defeatist stance which will work up until something comes, a little change of one power or two, and entire meta will crumble with insane amount of hate directed towards developers and Cryptic. And for what? For accepting a norm rather than to make a constructive feeedback explaining the positive/negative effects it may or may not have down the line? Developers have limited resources and providing a worthwhile effort and explanation is what makes all the difference. The backlash against the AD changes recently was insane. The amount of fear and QQ was absurd. But it was a logical change as I could refine over 500.000 AD daily. That does not make sense to me and I didn't do it because I do not want to be a part of something that effectively ruins the game I enjoy playing. I do not want to see Cryptic and developers as enemies, but I will offer a constructive solution if I may on the points which strike out the most and prove to be ineffective in the longer run. I've already stated that I did not venture into several Epic Dungeons due to the problem of my class being undesirable. I do not want to "fit in" playing a role I do not fit comfortable with and as such I will offer a significant explanation to why that would be just feeding the monster under the bed. Having such defeatism is just bad and I do not think that you can blame me for trying. Hopefully it will be a CC possibility since the CW was unjustifiably taken away pretty much all of it despite not changing or giving a significant buff to the class as a whole in contrast. It was a half-job, if any actually. CW is not really a DPS class, it's just that people took it as a norm since the CC CW is ineffective in pretty much anything else.
Now the same argument "Not desirable" can be also used for other things. The powers and effects of the OP and DC classes outshine other classes by a long margin. And the Epic Dungeon content supports it, which is the craziest idea in the game. And people still do not want to play it. Simply, they do not want to play it. DO NOT WANT. It is boring to be a MVP for many people. And people would rather choose to ignore the content than play it. This is possibly the first time I'm actually interested in the content as a whole, but I'm unable to experience it the way I'd like to and which I find to be normal. Even with CC I do not think that anything will change. There will still be no place for a CW as a desirable class, however it would provide a CW some more options for surviving. What use for a CW to freeze mobs if he can't hit them with anything good? It would still be a support position the CW's in. Cw's originally a versatile class and many people forget this.
Aura of Courage is just too good and is possible the best Class power in the game currently. I do not think that there's a better class power in the game atm. So I can openly say that even with CC possibility nothing would change in the meta.
But, however, exactly the CC possibility would allow lesser IL people to enter and feel a bit safer for being in the content. And to increase it's effective use it would also provide a more versatile and strategic approach to gaming.
And this strategy is what people are learning now, again, to use so that they have a bit more party-composition effect at hand. The discussions on how to defeat Sisters. Although the mechanics are simple enough, what is not the simple thing is how much HP the sisters have. So all players who do not have 100% DR will find themselves in a bit of a bind. It is a horrible experience and the question is - will it stop or will developers continue to make Epic Dungeons which undeniably always have a place for DC+OP combo? I would hope so since this is a DnD game.
No, I do not "live in Beta" and I do not agree that Game evolved. Having 1xOP and 2xDC in the most optimal party is very old news. Perhaps you are the one living in the past and can't accept a proposition for changes nor can think of any improvements for entire game since you're only focusing on your own class at all times as evidenced in the topic I've opened on the SoD bug to which you undeniably referred to as "working as intended". Are you sure that you have no ulterior motives into visiting this particular topic since you, perhaps, blame me for opening the "SoD bug" topic myself? I'm sorry but it had to be fixed since the power was too good.
No, stating that TANK is a must and Wizard is not exactly proves my point that there is an exclusivity at stake here and that some classes have a far more beneficial status and prove to be far more useful in a party composition to the point of it becoming a norm. You take it as a norm. You understand it as a norm, but the question is what does that "norm" do to the game? If I were you I would carefully read what ptieras wrote on the first page and try to understand that the game does not revolve around just what one person wants and it also does not revolve around just what developers themselves want. A compromise needs to be found in all case scenarios and it needs to be constructive. You are not offering any constructive explanation to why "A TANK IS A MUST", you are presenting it in a purely dogmatic way which is not dynamic nor explains nor even takes into the account that a Control Wizard, in this particular case, is a class that is not mandatory. On the mere premise of a CC involvement everyone who didn't understand the core problematics goes around like hyenas crying about how that would be "too easy". I'm sorry man, but if you find the game "too easy" you can simply use a weaker weapon or disable one or two bondings. Be the master of the game's difficulty by intentionally putting a handicap onto yourself. Don't try to project onto others how the game should be played or whether the Wizard is not mandatory and Tank is. It is, after all, just a video-game and it is, after all, something that changes over the time thanks to both the efforts of the community and the developers themselves, once enough resources become available. With the way you want the game to be soon enough you will, inevitably, have another nerf to the bonding runestones due to the way power creep works in the game. And once again you will have nerfs to the most used classes. If you actually took some quality time to sit, read, understand and research you would find out that I'm not some guy who just came from MOD 2 and QQ about how things are stupid now. And I'm not the onl,y person stating that OP+DC combo is a horrible exclusivist idea. However I can't go by around this since you've stated the next The core epitome of being biased.
This is all there is to your "objectivity" of any margin and I already knew this the minute your started derailing the topic, but I've played along since you're obviously having ulterior motives to which I can freely tell you that you're completely wasting your time. I'm not your enemy, i'm the friend of the player community and I hopefully work to get the benefit for everyone by pointing out what people in general want. IF you just like or prefer to play the game in the specific way you got used to, that's completely fine and all the power to you. But since you do not care for the Wizard class in general I can't take you as a person of interest to any constructive solutions be it this or any other topic which reflects the party compositions and the general problematic of the party compositions. Even if you strongly believe that you are just following the developer's will, you are not obliged to nor you are in any place of power if you do so. There are factors in the game which need a careful analysis and objectivity taken into the account and there are already people in the topic who've done so and have put forward not only the subtle essence of explaining it but also all their experience and expectations. And the best part? None of you who do not agree with what I've proposed are actually denying any of the presented facts. You just like the way things are and that's all there is to it. So you can't really bring anything interesting to the topic, I'm afraid. You are, aware, however that Trickster Rogue is defined as both Striker and Controller.
Yes, tooltips are important as they define the game. You are not helping by trying to appear smart. If tooltips do not matter then it needs to be addressed further.
I also do not like how you take "tricks" as something that is cheap or bad as a notion. It can be many things. I see that you are not really familiar with the DnD notions, otherwise you wouldn't be stating things like that. There's also a rogue class called Arcane Trickster, a combo of a Wizard and Thief. "Trickster" is synonym to elusive, hidden, fiendish, backstabbing and similar. The Norse god Loki is a trickster, too. A Trick can be small, from a coin trick to the blade in the back or teleporting behind the target. Basically using Shadowy Disappearance is a Trick. Smoke Bomb is a Trick. Point is you're arguing semantics and you want to pretend like that there is no CONTROL in the game. Sunburst itself is a control power and DC uses it. Just one to name. Hell, smoke bomb is a controlling power too as it dazes enemies. But does it work on Elites? Why shouldn't it work on Elite enemies? Instead it is ineffective and not used for its dazing property. It just becomes weird to use it in order to "daze" enemies. How many people are playing Epic Fangbreaker Island now? Or Epic Spellplague? No, latest dungeon is the main point for people to go to only and only if they chose so. The Choice. And even with the latest dungeon there are more people who want to play TONG or CODG for the sake of farming. But there are far more people playing hunts. Point of fact.
I disagree with you, the game is not oriented towards playing Epic Dungeons. It's optional. You can 100% finish a campaign without going, ever, into Epic Dungeon. This used to be a thing back in MOD2 but now you do not need to run a dungeon in order to finish a campaign. Who lives in MOD2 now?
It's called "Straw argument". Should I call you on BS because you use The Bondooks avatar which is primarily satirizing the very "class" epitome? If you are watching that show and know what it's about then It can't possibly insult you the way I refer to the classes. Apparently, a Bubblewrap and Lamp is bad. Point taken. It was so important, correct?
I'm starting to feel worried for your lack of perception. This topic is here to state that certain roles are overused and it's a time for a change since it's hurting the entire game one way or another. If you disagree that's fine. it is not like you've put forward any idea of your own other than portraying just how delusional you are thinking that you're in the position to tell other people what they can and can't do in their lives. Aaaah "The balance isn't perfect" and "mod 6 sucks". We're going somewhere, you and I, finally! Finally some constructive work, as small as it is, but it's still constructive.
How? Explain how is what I propose "unbalanced". Don't just tell me "seems like", use actual arguments, some facts, something tangible, do something with your knowledge and experience. Don't be a bystander who's going to attack anyone who wants to bring in some changes. Use proper counter-arguments against me and I will congenially accept my mistake and apologize if I consider that I was wrong. Don't just blabber at me and tell me what to do, that's a horrible idea and you'll only find a hard wall if you try something like that in the future. In fact, better yet, forget about me or my existence and just use the topic to say what you think a good balance is. That way you will do me a favor and yourself as well. Actually, it has the most class diversity. The idea that OP+DC is a must is restrictive. In fact, it is so restrictive that the meta party takes TWO DCs. Please, explain why my proposition is "less diverse" than having 2DCs in a party which is already a thing and a reality in the game?
As for tankyness, most classes do. And most classes come with DEFENSE LS REGEN HP AC etc. And seems like it will only increase and increase further. GWF has a tanky role, too. It's useless against the Elite Monster hits. It is not a proper tank despite being a tank. A completely useless paragon. Why? Why can't it be useful?
TR can have more deflect. SW/CW can be dependent on LS and control. HR could use traps to control and shoot from distance. And generally people who play PvP have the best idea how to utilize all the tanky, surviving abilities at their disposal.
Can you possibly fathom how many people I had to teach how to stay alive at Batiri playing hunters, rogues and whatnot? People do not know how to utilize the skills in the most optimal way for the particular content. They need someone to tank the batiri for them. Actually happened. And by diversity you mean every team will have a 2 x DC + OP combo as a stakeholder and you just fill in the rest of the gap with whatever possible.
Yes, flawless logic. That's why I invested money in this game, the one I do not like and had a character since Beta, because I do not like the game. A splendid way to end your already biased point of view on pretty much everything. But, hey, you're still here and I openly call you to put forward some arguments class-wise.
If you mained a CW you'd be singing a different song right now.
Furthermore, point of fact, Aura of Courage increases everyone's damage without any action whatsoever and also stacks with the Feytouched weapon that activates itself via encounters. Aura of Courage is a huge portion of anyone's damage and has been for a long time now since it also scales with the buffs and combat advantage itself. It is, by far, the most useful Class Power I've seen in the game since it also activates itself of all people in the party and damages in a huge aoe radius, sometimes simultaneously and with some powers by several times again and again, effectively becoming a broken overused power.
As such it is TOO GOOD not to take into the account, especially when you already have a team of people. Point of fact is that some people got used to this form of playing and they will defend it as much as possible since they understand how the mechanics behind it works and will use it to utilize it in the dungeon content in order to gain unfair advantage instead to altruistically explain why certain power/skill etc is unbalanced and provides too much to the team.
This is without power sharing. That is just one little skill. Include power sharing? Gain 20.000 power over the one you already have?
Healing. Can heal anyone with action points. Need I say more?
Tankyness. Can tank whilst smoking a cigarette. Nothing there to add.
DC? Gain even more power and the best insta-(de)buff in the game? C'mon, let's not pretend like they have the average powers. It is not the case if you know how the game works.
There is no "proper" way to play a CW. Nor a correct way. It's not about "single way" per se. It's about adaptability. And everything that any CW did or does is adapting to a situation by adding a bit of that, a bit of this. I personally have 4 different loadouts, but to play the way I'd like to I'd need around 6, especially now since the content has very different Arpen ratio. You can't blame me for taking things literally when you yourself found an arbitrary literal thing to complain about, man... And you know yourself that I wouldn't propose that beating some content can't happen for this or that reason, but look at things from a bit more reasonable distance. I'm not here to make jokes and I don't expect you are, so why all this charade? Just a time waster, really. I'd rather put a reset to this whole conversation with you and start things over.
And I disagree that there is "correct way" to play an Epic Dungeon. There is only the way you are FORCED INTO playing which is dictated by the Content itself. And the FORCED part is OP + DC combination. Sometimes 2 x DC combination.
If something insta-kills you I'd say that that is a challenge enough. Why then build any Life Steal, Deflect, Dodge mechanics or HP / AC if there will be things that insta-kill you and only one or two Superman classes can save you? I'm just there talking a walk, but the Palladin is taking all the damage. And even if something hits me, pally still takes the beating.
And yet people say CC is easy and I can't get hit with pally in team. Gimme a break. Pally is the big daddy. He takes you by the hand, or with that weird link for the sake of protection against the unavoidable AOE. And this is the only and most viable sentence you've provided in the topic and MOST CONSTRUCTIVE one. You are not at all denying my argument, you and I are on the same side since as you know META will look forward to play with more support than DPS. And meta is orienting towards that.
Right now CR meta is :
DC
DC
GWF
GF
OP
GF is there for the mere fact that a bit more damage is needed to finish the sisters at the start and a bit more tankyness. The people who get easily bored shouldn't be the ones to demand things in the game. If you want a harder challenge you put in a card and call it a day. Easy. Why should people be forced to play extremely hard content? I do not know any person who actually enjoys hard dungeon content. I only know people who enjoy beating the challenge. Problem is that they do so by utilizing the most broken aspects of the game into achieving that, finding the placeholder of the least resistance to do so, and consider themselves amazing for using the most OP classes in the game into achieving something. As you say "becomes too easy". I do not agree that such people who only care for how hard some content is should evaluate whether something is easy or not. This should befall the average player and the average player's opinion. It was done the same in the economic view not that long ago. An average player was earning around 100K ad daily and developers changed it to the Average earning. It prevents elitism. And elitism is bad.
Thinking that content is too easy is ELITISM, make no mistake there.
And generally I never proposed to change hard content. I only proposed to make it so that people can go with any party composition they want without necessarily dying if not bringing a tank or a DC. You are not showing me a strong party. You are showing me an idealistic party. A party born out of the necessity rather than their general congeniality and party orientation. It is simply said proving my point that people are using 2 x DC + 1 x OP and as such you are also the person to prove that this is a thing and that it shouldn't be as it effectively destroys actual party composition and diversity.
You want to wash the conversation and start over. That is fine, I'm cool with that.
So let's keep this simple, a few realities have to be laid out and then we can see what is possible. I'm not here to argue with you, or start drama, so just hear me out.
Realities:
1.) No matter how the developers try to adjust the content, or the characters, there will always be people who crunch the numbers and optimize party compositions. There is actually a spreadsheet, that currently exists, which allows you to do exactly this. This means that eventually, after any change, there is going to be a "optimal" group composition that is [at some point] spread to the population of Neverwinter. Keep in mind, this includes each and every spec, gear load-out, buff/debuff synergy, timing coordination, and all other things that can be optimized to make a run faster, smoother, and easier. Hell, people are measuring animation times for God's sake!
The point here, is to say that no matter how you adjust the game, a "meta" will always present itself. I believe this is what @blur#5900 was pointing out. <b class="Bold">If you adjust the game, you will only create a new meta. I'm sorry bro, but that is a fact. The given meta might not even be actually optimal, but many players will still believe in it and they will construct their groups around it. Therefore, unless you can somehow make all options perfectly equal, some classes/specs/rotations will (at the very least by appearance) be less [or not at all] desirable for an optimal party composition.
2.) I believe that players should have a challenge in the game, at all levels (BiS and level 5, for example).
No explanation needed.
3.) I believe that all players need rewards consistent with their effort. Some players should have access to more valuable rewards than others. Some players should have access to RNG-based rewards, others deserve guaranteed rewards (for more difficult content).
No explanation needed.
4.) Neverwinter will, and should, have some content that is not able to be completed by some party compositions for some reason(s) (maybe bad specs, bad mechanics understanding, bad synergy, weak characters, etc etc etc).
This is a GOOD thing in my opinion. Hopefully this will be more true in the future (see below).
So moving on... I believe that #1 - 4 are realities for Neverwinter (at least to some degree), you might disagree. That is okay. If they weren't here at all, I would not be playing Neverwinter.
Here is the problem though. Personally (and I know others who feel the same), I want content that is challenging FOR ME. That is why #2 is up there. I am not 100% BiS on my toons, but I need a challenge or the game won't be fun. I want rewards that match how difficult the content is that we are doing. I know that other people feel this way too (think prominence shards) THAT IS AWESOME! Thank you Cryptic! That is fair in my opinion. Only some people have access to these drops currently. They are very easy to farm and last time I sold some, they sold above 100K AD per shard.
Note: When I speak of this "content" I do NOT mean all content. I am only describing some theoretical content that is exclusive for "end-game" players.
1.) Content that is not possible to complete without a full BiS (or close to) party composition. This means that you will need to spend time building your character and testing and/or researching an optimal party composition BEFORE attempting to participate successfully. All 5 players will need to coordinate their builds, actions, and rotations to promote the chance of surviving and dishing out strong DPS. This content will also require the full team to be using voice chat to coordinate the mechanics of the run, otherwise it will be practically impossible to complete. NO, I don't want content that you can just burn through 1,382 Scrolls of Mass Life and call it a day. This content shouldn't allow that non-sense.
2.) Even with whatever the current "meta" party is, and almost a fully completed character, I want my group to wipe at least a few times throughout the run (not just because of some bug). I don't want a dungeon that can be completed over and over again with zero deaths. I also don't want a dungeon that is possible to complete quickly (let's say) in less than 1 hour. I want mechanics that challenge the strongest of parties. One example is a "DPS-check mechanic" I LOVE THESE THANK YOU CRYPTIC!!! For example, the second boss in CR has to be killed quick enough. If it is not, the boss will spin/break all four pillars and you are basically hamstered at that point. You cannot proceed. You can't just go in there with a "good" DPS and pass that boss. Currently, the other group members need to cooperate and coordinate their buffs and debuffs (at least to some degree) for the success of the run. Think of Orcus, from ToNG, and his big scary balls.
Note: While I am talking about mechanics, I DON"T want stupid RNG unavoidable stuff. Cradle had a great P/P mechanic, I wish it wasn't made easier. HOWEVER, I don't want some RNG un-dodge-able hamster hand to grab me mid-mechanic, with no way of escaping...and fall to my death. That is LAME!
3.) In order to experience this challenge described in #1 and #2, I don't want to have to purposefully build my character incorrectly, avoid using strong elements in the game, or avoid constructing an "optimal party". This is a big problem between what I want, and what you want. How could Cryptic create a piece of content that is this difficult, and make it available for the casual player? I don't think they can. Furthermore, the completion criteria needs to be exclusive/fixed (if you would suggest a difficulty setting) otherwise it would feel like purposefully gimping my character or composition, just to receive a challenge. This leads me to the most important point, the deal breaker #4.
4.) In order for players to have incentive to run this content players need to have rewards that match the effort (or be chasing the glory of completion). This means we can't get some HAMSTER emerald and a salvage piece of gear. Most of us have 2M+ RAD (since Mod 14 began) now so salvage is basically useless unless we need to take a break from the game. The rewards need to be outrageous because the effort is outrageous. Also, I don't believe that the rewards in this type of dungeon should be RNG based. I think that players who complete this should be given a substantial reward that is GUARANTEED. Some teams might spend a few days trying to complete this content a single time. Make it worth their time! Also, include a title, because some teams might spend weeks trying to complete a single run!
5.) Given #1 - 4 this means that my "ideal end-game" content would be so difficult that I would never be putting "not a speed-run" in my video descriptions, for example. Just completing the run itself would be "impressive". Can you imagine how cool this would be for YouTube, the Neverwinter Community, and the forums? Imagine if the "impressive" videos [of this game] weren't completing some run 20 seconds faster, they were something like "Castle Hamster Sauce, 2Hr 37Mins Only 7 Wipes". Can you imagine how rewarding it would feel to complete a dungeon like that? It would give end-game players something to do that doesn't feel like killing mobs in Sharandar.
My final word here is that some of us want exclusive content for the added effort that we have invested in the game. I don't think that you can offer that and still make it accessible to a casual player. I don't believe that all varieties party compositions should be able to complete all the content.
Simply put, I don't think that content exclusivity is a bad thing in a video game (specifically an MMO). I think that adding something as competitive as this would really excite some of its [Neverwinter's] players, and be greatly appreciated. Specifically, I think that it would be better to introduce content that truly challenges people who optimize parties, rather than trying to take on the impossible task of making all party compositions equally viable.
Also just to offer some perspective to you... Personally my main is a CW too and has been since I started playing in Mod 4 on Xbox. Now my home is PC
That's cool. I have never played Everquest so I wouldn't know.
I do really enjoy Neverwinter. I am not complaining in any way. I just wanted to point out that my "ideal" end-game might look drastically different than @c1k4ml3kc3 's "ideal". We can't have both. Right now it is somewhere in the middle.
I personally enjoy how much support classes are useful in the game. It makes the game more about coordination in my opinion. Currently, all the support characters try to time/overlap all their buffs and debuffs to make the DPS go "boom boom". Try joining together into a voice chat and doing that, it is a lot of fun! That, again in my opinion, is better than having end-game content that 5 DPS can clear. 5 DPS doesn't really take much coordination. It would just be 5 players doing their rotations over and over.
Furthermore, if content wasn't so challenging (and/or buffs/debuffs weren't as valuable) why would a group ever invite a support character to a party? If the best way to run a dungeon was 5 DPS then I think that DCs and OPs wouldn't have a single group to join.
Currently, any primary "DPS" [leaving out all support] class (TR/HR/GWF/SW/CW) is welcome in end-game content. Any of those classes can do excellent damage. In fact, every single one of these classes has the ability to kill ToNG's Orcus in 1 phase, that is how balanced [and easy] the game currently is. I think that our DPS classes are pretty balanced, actually. When played correctly [without any stat issues] all these classes can DPS end-game content in a competitive time frame. I'm not saying it is perfect, but it really isn't that horrible.
Finally, the game additionally offers that some support classes can do excellent damage. GFs and DCs are perfect examples of this.
I have tons of RL stuff for some days coming ahead. I probably won't be checking back in here, at least for awhile.
Cheers all!
You said it yourself you made the build in beta so its obvious that you are stuck in the past. Learn how to play your class.
TR has a control tree as well, it doesnt work in current state of the game, you have to be stupid to play it.
Game has changed too much and you dont get it. You want to play the way you played in beta. Why would everyone else have to play the way you want game to be? Also, u forgot one question, did it ever occur to you that your idea is wrong or all your ideas are right? 1 OP and 2 DC arent from beta.
If you are gonna quote me do it right, i never stated SoD was WAI i said it wasnt a bug but again, since our understandings of both are different lets not do Sisyphus' work. Yes, i am a developer, what does that have to do with anything? Well seems like you cant read, requirements do say Tank is a must and Wizard isnt, not my words. I adapt and play the game according to current state, i do not bother wishing for something that aint happening. How do you offer a compromise by wishing for 5 dps meta? What are all those supports gonna do if your wish came true? I see no compromise in your idea. I agree that there should not be 2 DC in one party but i absolutely have no issue with 1 tank and 1 healer. In such composition there are still 3 dps. As mentioned before its holy trinity that many games have. Why should it change just because you dont like it? Why Tank is a must, because it has a shield and/or temp hp and is made to take the damage and generate higher aggro than others. Your CW isnt. Any dps class is not a must since there are too many of them, you cant fit all classes in a 5man group. So, at least 3 or more will sit out depending on the composition. Nobody is crying its too easy with CC, its a fact, there is a video as a proof. There is one CC power that works on bosses and you want them all to work. Are you freaking insane? Sorry i dont share your opinion of weakening myself so the game would be more challenging, dont bother with such ideas.
Yes Tank is a must and Wizard isnt, devs words. Keep telling them that you disagree, i will keep telling them that i agree. No ulterior motive whatsoever, specific classes can tank and specific classes can heal, all classes can dps. You want to take tank/heal spot with your CW, i disagree with that. You seem to have problem with opposition to your ideas and make up some conspiracies against you. People dont want 5 dps meta in general so stop bothering with such. I dont care about CW same as i dont care about any other class except my main, it has nothing to do with you or CW. If you feel that CW is not good enough as dps you can suggest a buff, still there would be people who will oppose that idea since they are much better at CW-ing, if they would agree with it they would only ask for a very, very minor increase in dps. There are plenty of things in this game which need attention but change of meta into what you want is not one of those things.
If you are taking tooltips seriously you know the game even less than i thought. Tooltips dont represent the true state of things. Some do, many dont. I never said there is no control in this game, thats what you assumed, there is control but it isnt affecting bosses. Its cheap and easy. It is affecting elite enemies except those special ones which devs didnt want to be affected by it.
All fbi, msp, tong, codg and cr are epic content, focus is on that type of the content. Hunts didnt exist couple mods ago. People will always farm the most whats most profitable and fastest and currenly those are tomb and codg. Everything is optional, even playing this game is optional, focus is still on epic dungeons.
I played this class when it sucked as well, it still has problems in specific conditions. I care because i dont want to play this game the way you want it. You presented your idea, those who oppose presented counter arguments. Whats the problem, cant handle different opinions?
I don't think all classes should be able to fill all roles, I feel that specialization is a good thing. That being said I do feel that the game design does not currently allow for all classes to shine utilizing their built-in strengths. Primarily this can be seen in the form of any class capable of performing in a controller role. Secondarily I see this in an under-representation of healing roles. Not in that classes cannot perform the healing role but that healing is less useful than mitigation. Any class which can provide more mitigation to their group provides more usefulness than an actual healer. Healers are also further supplanted by the strength of life-steal.
The healing problem, and mitigation problem arises from the combination of two things. High incoming damage and incredibly overpowered healing ability. This creates a binary. A character is either alive with 100% health or is dead due to having been one-shot. No amount of healing can prevent a one-shot so mitigation becomes vastly more useful than healing. This further reinforces the GF/OP/DC paradigm. I believe a change to this subject would be vastly more beneficial than giving any classes the ability to fulfill different roles.
Second to the healing/damage issue; I believe that increasing the necessity and/or usefulness of control in dungeons would be beneficial to the overall health of the game and class diversity in dungeons. Enemies in dungeons, especially level 73 enemies are so resistant to control abilities (if not entirely immune) that it becomes more efficient to just brute force through them with damage and mitigation. This once again reinforces the current paradigm and forces any character with strong control powers to forego them and focus on dps. These characters are by default less efficient in this particular role (which is actually well designed) but since they have no place to truly shine they become under-represented in the overall community as they are either retired or fade into the background.
All this being said, I do believe that it would be beneficial to design future content in such a way as to further diversify role representation in dungeon groups. Not by changing the classes to fill more roles, but by changing the content design to take better advantage of the different roles the classes are already designed for. The issue here is that when your dungeons only have 3 bosses and there are only 5 members of a party it becomes increasingly difficult to provide enough options for all the roles that all the classes can provide to be represented therein.
Finally I think we all have to understand that not every fight in every dungeon can be designed to take advantage of every strength that all the classes have. There may be some fights where the control-focused character has less usefulness and other fights where there is less need for a full tank. What would be best would be to have more diverse fights in longer dungeons that can, over the course of the entire dungeon, fully utilize all those strengths at different times.
I'll cut this short and probably reply again later. I do believe this is a worthwhile conversation to have, especially if we can all (myself included) try to avoid defensiveness, hostility and vitriol.
errmm i mean Hello dear @c1k4ml3kc3
Correct me please if i am wrong, but everytime i read posts and suggestions from you, i am reading between the lines: "Give me please my old Stormspell Thaum Cw back, so i am not in the need anymore to search for some useless classes like Tanks and Healers anymore.."
Bc that was the behavior now a long time ago and for an long time, also.
So let me tell you a true story (i have no intention to lie, or an proof that i don't lie, you can believe me or not).
The first guild i was in (Mod1-5) was "terrible" casual, we had no insight about buffs/debuffs/group synergys..stuff like that, most of us favourised Rainbowpartys, bc of no insight and clearly more fun oriented.
The roles everyone from us was written in stone: A Tank has to tank, an Dc has to heal, and the Dps Chars had to dps (and try not to die..)
So runs like the old T2 Frozen Heart looked always like that...The Gf was running in circles with an bandwagon of adds behind him, the Dc had to look that the Gf was always full healed, the Cw was killing the tiny little Archers, bc they tried always to kill the Dc bc of heal aggro, the Gwf was sprinting around, also killing archers and helping out against Hrimnir, and then there was the tiny Tr facetanking and killing Hrimnir...
Obviously such an Boss fight could take often more than half an hour, not to mention replacing an dps char with an Hr, bc back in the old days an Hr gains often more aggro an Gf could handle...
So you start asking, what is this all about???
We had "That Guy" in the Guild, an Loudmouth, saying he was in WoW the leader/member of one of the "best progressive" Guild (whatever this means)...
He was new to NW, he played obviously an CW, we helped him to get the precious HV Set (and please remember how many runs it needed back, to get an full set..).
And on the same day, he completet the Hv Set, he left our Guild with his Mainchar and was invited to an more "progressive" Nw Guild..
But i seemed to me he was not that welcome, bc he was constantly still in our Ts...
So and then he was constantly ranting about how silly we are, running rainbow instead of running with 5 Cw...
Sadly both Guildleaders took an break of the Game, so yeah we tried such an run 5 Cw all of the mwith Hv Set including mine.
So what i have to say, we were "speeding" through the adds, and we were clearly faster reaching the Boss room.
And then the fight starts...Wave after wave after wave of adds, Hrimnir was standing there, with an sad face, bc noone was attacking him directly, the fight was a blast:
Shard of Avalanche here...Shard there....sudden storm....steal time...icy terrain was forbidden, bc "That Guys" Pc couldn't handle it....Singu here and Singu there...Oppressive force right after Singu....and all the damage we did against Hrimnir was only colleteral Damage....
So may i ask you, bc not only me is asking meanwhile the same, also alot of people do the same in some discord channels:
Is it this you want back?
Boring..really boring Boss Fight mechanics..waves of adds again, and they should be controlable again, so that your Cw could shine again, and is not in need again with some useless other classes?
Then let me give you some words of warnings, like @blur#5900 said...we are now in Mod 14, game has changed, and guess wich class would profit most about some "ancient" boss fight, it wouldn't be your Cw, nor the Gwf, not even Sw or Hr..
It would be the Tr..(build and geared with an specific guide)
And every Single Tr in the (meanwhile over 1k members) Tr discord would cheer this and cheer you if you are succesfull with your intention.
So we (Trs) would not only be the maybe Fotm class like actually, we would become the most dominating dps class ingame, something i clearly do not want, being an succesfull alternative comparing to other classes is fine for me.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/413710523205681152/466246565837930496/unknown.png
If that link didn't work
https://gyazo.com/602b03d0349d463424c858779a4cbec7
Can't we all hope...
I'm not saying you're wrong for wanting to play a game like that, not at all, but I will say that if either one of us got what we wanted, the other one probably wouldn't be around much longer.
This game started out as one game, but has been slowly morphing into another, on several levels. It's not fair to tell people that don't like the direction it's changing into to just suck it up and get on board. Imagine a weekend heavy metal music festival but on the second day most of the bands were playing pop music. People who already preferred pop music would be pleased and defend it, but the rest of us would be rightly pissed off. We thought we were gonna spend the weekend listening to the music WE SHOWED UP FOR, but now that we're here, we're stuck with this sellout HAMSTER. There's plenty of places to get that, not so many places to get what we want, and it's aggravating to see it going away.
I am sorry that you feel this way. I don't want to force my opinions on others. I was just trying to point out that all types of players need content that challenges them. Currently, in Neverwinter, there is a gigantic gap between casual players and "end-game" players. When I say "end-game" I don't just mean gear and stats. That is a very small part of being an "end-game" player, or team. I don't want to create another huge wall of text for you so let me just respond with one example.
There is a huge difference between a team with players that know their class, and another team where the players understand all classes. For example, some [support] players understand when, for example, the specific class/spec of DPS is ready to dump a rotation. Therefore, they can throw out all of their buffs and debuffs (so that they overlap) exactly when that specific DPS is ready to dump their strong rotation. Some DPS need to know to wait, while in other parties, the support needs to know when to wait. To end this example, I will talk about my DC. When fighting a boss with a Conq GF [as main DPS], I need to have all of my buffs and debuffs overlap [which is a very small window] exactly when the GF uses Griffon's Wrath [if that is what they are using]. This means, I need to understand how to time my rotation so that everything can be active at once. I need to understand all of the up-times for each buff, and debuff, to cause them to overlap [by using them in the correct order]. Additionally, [and much more important] if you are not watching your GF self-buffing himself, or herself, (or don't know what a Conq GFs rotation consists of) you might significantly slow down the run by applying your buffs/debuffs too early or too late. On the GF's [or any DPS] side of things, he or she might decide to attack or mark the boss before the AC DC have applied both Anointed Army AND Blessings of Battle to their character AND companion. This will significantly impact their DPS negatively for the entire fight (or at least for 30 seconds).
I could go on and on about each and every classes "jobs" in order to make a run really smooth and fast, but I think I have already established a point that most casual players probably don't pay attention to these synergies.
So my question is, how can Neverwinter challenge these types of players? ^ In my opinion, it is important to offer challenging content to all players. Thank you for saying that, I also completed agree with you. I don't think that either of us should get entirely what we want. We are both on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to content distribution preferences.
Currently, I think that Neverwinter has done a great job of distributing content [to some degree] for all players. My only reason posting here is that I don't want Neverwinter to make "end-game" epic dungeon content any easier, because it will trivialize the only epic dungeon content (some of us have) that doesn't [at the moment] feel entirely like running quests in Sharandar.
Some players will always try to optimize their builds and parties. There is no way to stop that from happening. Trying to change the current "EPIC DUNGEON PARTY COMPOSITION PROBLEMATICS", as this thread is titled, will only create a new meta. A new "ideal" composition (including builds/classes/rotations/timing/synergy/coordination) will manifest after any adjustments.
Do you think it proves anything?
Do you think it was some war won and must remember it?
Do you think it was a fine example how to make the game better?
Not at all!
The game can be made better when player theorycrafters, testers, and developers works together and balance the game.
You could bring up mod10 HR and Sw rework when Sw with various bugs and imbalance was finally fixed with the great help of our theory crafters and developers. We are on very different opinion of what is being "unhealthy" in this game!
I remember I learned some CW basics from your pretty good guide and now just look at you...
Do you think nowadays gameplay is healthy when buffs and powersharing are clearly overbalanced in this game?
Do you think its "healthy" when as guild leader I have to make rookies understand that they have to drop their TR/SW and start level paladin and clerics? And have to force 80% of my guild to have OP/DC when in need?
Those "unhealthy" times were the most fun in the game when you actually have to carefully position and watch your rotation.
Those old dps players became very good pvp players after mod 3 and have very good knowledge about their class.
Nowadays glass-cannon dps players basically crying for more buffs, accuse tanks whena single mob is attacking them, accuse clerics when dies, drooling like Pavlovs dog when buffs are up while 4 buffers/support are handed them the whole dungeon on a silver plate!
These new dps players became nothing after buffs will be finally nerfed they will die in every minute and have to relearn the whole game...
GWFs seriously accuse tanks when mobs are facing them after using daring shout, thinking that mark is some kind of dmg buffs.
HRs are crying all over the place when their dots are not buffed over the moon.
Do you think that this egoistic dps gamer behaviour is "healthy"? Having 4 buffer/support to carry you is not unnatural?
Most of these guys won't even be used after the dungeons will be finally demanding that you have to take care of you somewhat again!
Oh and btw we never used 5 CWs. We used GWF and DC too then GF.
And btw again we used 3-4 GWFs in gauntlgrym dungeon(Dwarf Kings Crypt).
So in a way you are both wrong with very frequent memorial of these ancient CW history and it helps nothing in finding a solution.
Maybe you should read Sharpedge suggestion summary for this game about the real solution.
In short power and other stats need to capped.
You just can't balance dungeons when everyone are running with 200k power with tons of DR and deflection.
I might add complete buff rework with strict dimishing return. Mod10 debuffs got it. It's time to finish the job.
You can never hope changing a buffer to dps in a party w/o that.