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It's time to do something brave: make FF free
thegrandnagus1
Posts: 447 Arc User
First things first, I have a LTS, so this thread is not about getting anything for myself. That said, I think it is time to give all players at least 1 FF slot. Why? quite simply, I think they will make *more* money. If that sounds counter-intuitive, I understand. How can giving something away for free, that you are currently making money selling, make you more money?
Here is the thing: Champs has a lot of things you can buy. However, (and this is kind of an obvious statement, but bear with me), people will only buy those things if they are here playing the game. IMO, giving away 1 FF slot to everyone will draw many people to the game. A lot of people tried the game when it went F2P, played an archetype, then left. A lot of other people were only 10 or 11 years old when this game came out, and have never even heard of this game, because Cryptic/PW hasn't been advertising it for quite some time.
If Cryptic suddenly announces a FF slot for all players, that will be reported on at MMORPG, MassivelyOP, and other sites. A lot of former players who never had a chance to play FF will decide to check it out. A lot of people who never even heard about this game will decide to check it out. No, they won't all stay. But some will, and some will see a lot of other things they want in the game store and spend some money.
Long story short, I believe that giving away 1 FF slot to all players will result in more revenue in the long run.
Here is the thing: Champs has a lot of things you can buy. However, (and this is kind of an obvious statement, but bear with me), people will only buy those things if they are here playing the game. IMO, giving away 1 FF slot to everyone will draw many people to the game. A lot of people tried the game when it went F2P, played an archetype, then left. A lot of other people were only 10 or 11 years old when this game came out, and have never even heard of this game, because Cryptic/PW hasn't been advertising it for quite some time.
If Cryptic suddenly announces a FF slot for all players, that will be reported on at MMORPG, MassivelyOP, and other sites. A lot of former players who never had a chance to play FF will decide to check it out. A lot of people who never even heard about this game will decide to check it out. No, they won't all stay. But some will, and some will see a lot of other things they want in the game store and spend some money.
Long story short, I believe that giving away 1 FF slot to all players will result in more revenue in the long run.
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The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The only thing I will say, and constantly will say about ATs, is the ATs were a mistake. Plain and simple. I think, personally, that ATs is what killed the F2P conversion for Champions. Cryptic had a chance to get large interest in the game, and instead of doing the right thing to garner interest in the game, they put up perhaps one of the largest barriers to getting into Champions, and hid behind the idea that Champions was too complex for people. The ATs were already in place as guides there was no need to alienate interested people into this game by introducing ATs.
So, the question remains, since F2P launch, how would I fix this issue now. Well, it would be a long one, and would probably cost Cryptic quite a bit of man hours to do the conversion they should have done from the beginning. In other words, getting more flies with honey than vinegar, and ATs are the vinegar. It's the biggest complaint I've heard from former players who were interested in Champions, especially from COH players, but thought it was stupid that the freeform build, which was Champions biggest pull, was behind a pay wall, and I agree.
So here is how I would do it;
Silver has limited freeform. What does limited freeform mean? It means that they have to pay to unlock specific power sets, but they start with a few based power sets already unlocked. In this instance I would have had Ice, Gadgets, Martial Arts, Telepathy, Might and Dark unlocked as a base for starting players on Free to Play. Gold players remain unchanged, and I would say Cryptic could take this opportunity to actually improve power coloring and emanation points, making them huge draws for players to go gold.
Individual power sets can be sold at say between 900 to 1200 zen give or take, and then the devs have actual revenue to create newer power sets, and perhaps the biggest inspiration to keep making new power sets for the game, ones that players want. They would also be inspired to properly balance out power sets among each other, giving them full power suites that help them survive and not falling back on the ideal they can get X power from Y set instead. People shouldn't feel forced into having to need X power to play the game.
So what about people that already paid the money for freeform slots? Well that I think Cryptic would do this instead. For each freeform slot that people bought, they would get 3 or 4 power set tokens for use in buying the other power sets from the store. Would bring faith in that people wouldn't feel their purchase was worthless, and it would help bring in people who found the AT system worthless and it not worth the time to pay a sub for the game. And with the ability to buy the power sets people want instead of relying on the off chance someone will buy a 5000 ($50) freeform slot, you create a bigger revenue draw to the game. AKA you lay out the pot of honey for people (buying individual power sets) instead of the vinegar ($50 freeform slot).
But, and this is a huge but, Cryptic would have to fully flesh out power sets now, and actually give them ALL the tools to make them more interesting and perhaps even unique mechanics as well. Things like defenses, heals and the like would help a lot in that regard.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Just give everyone a free FF slot. People that don't end up buying more FF slots were never going to buy one anyway; all the people who end up buying more might never have bought them otherwise.
Don't sell power sets. That would just be ****ing it up. If there had been power set selling nonsense, I would never have bought the FF slots I did, and I wouldn't be LTS now.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
But I can't really believe there would be enough resources to invest into new powerset, and having new powersets released on a periodic basis would be a must with this model.
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The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
This is so not happing, I whuold and almost everyone quit CO, this is like giveing out a founder package in warframe!
You can dream....but this will NEVER and I hope gladly never happen, we payed CASH, you wanna be gold or FF?, PAY, can't pay, sucks to be you
Also slivers already have a "FF" its called "FF Slot", is it too much money?, sucks to be you
1) I'm suggesting giving everyone 1 FF slot, which offers complete customization.
2) You are suggesting offering a "limited FF" slot, which offers less customization.
Biff is simply saying that a true FF slot is a better way to show off the system than a limited version of it. Archetypes have nothing to do with that point.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Yes, they get told it's better but they have to pay money to find out.
One AT and one Freeform would have been better, so they can compare from the start.
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On the other tentacle, one AT slot and one FF slot might not be a bad idea - as chaelk notes, you can then compare the two. (You could, for instance, start with an easy one, like a Behemoth - and then try building an alternative to the Behemoth in your FF slot and see how much better you can do.) Then you learn that by subscribing, you get either six or sixteen more FF slots to play around with...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I have a LTS account and a gold account and I wouldn't be quitting.
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I think some sort of Freeform Test Drive thing would be better. Like you get a free Freeform Character Slot that lasts for like 15 hours or something. This way you get the experience, once per account, then it goes away so it can't be exploited.
I dunno.
That is a valid point, but that same argument applies to character slots. The devs know that people can create unlimited free accounts and bypass the character slot limit, but they also know that most people aren't likely to do so because of losing the perks they have unlocked on other accounts, or would wind up rebuying certain things, which is still a profit.
So about the FF slot, sure, someone could create 5 different accounts just to create 5 different FF characters, but they are still likely to wind up spending some money on something for each of those characters. Inventory space, some costume part, vehicles, etc. And if that person was someone who wasn't playing before, and was drawn to the game because of the FF slot, that's still money Cryptic wouldn't have made otherwise. So that is why I think that in the long run, they would make more money by doing this than otherwise.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Most people are far too lazy to make and play 50 accounts. If Cryptic wants to do something about that, they need to make community more important. People who have friends in the game and are known don't want to have 50 accounts.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
This sounds exactly like how CO used to work before F2P - you could get a 'demo' account that would last up to level 10 or something really low, but it would let you do whatever you wanted to with it. Or something of the sort anyway.
To say something about the topic - freeform is the main reason why people sub. Giving it away for free is bad. Period.
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The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
*makes a free Freeform character* "I'm having fun with this. But I want another Freeform character. Oh, wait, I can just make another account and get another character for free!"
This is why This Can't Work.
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I can tell you haven't been reading this thread, so here is a direct copy/paste of what I already said earlier to the exact same argument you just made:
That is a valid point, but that same argument applies to character slots. The devs know that people can create unlimited free accounts and bypass the character slot limit, but they also know that most people aren't likely to do so because of losing the perks they have unlocked on other accounts, or would wind up rebuying certain things, which is still a profit.
So about the FF slot, sure, someone could create 5 different accounts just to create 5 different FF characters, but they are still likely to wind up spending some money on something for each of those characters. Inventory space, some costume part, vehicles, etc. And if that person was someone who wasn't playing before, and was drawn to the game because of the FF slot, that's still money Cryptic wouldn't have made otherwise. So that is why I think that in the long run, they would make more money by doing this than otherwise.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
People are extremely cheap. People complain about $1 games on the various mobile phone stores saying that that is too expensive.
If people can find a way to 'exploit' the system and get things for free, they will. Constantly. All the time.
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You apparently missed the part about how that exact same argument applies to character slots. If what you were saying were correct, then Cryptic wouldn't be selling character slots, because they would know that people would just create a new free account every time they ran out of slots. Except, that's not the case. Cryptic is selling character slots, because people buy them. And the other part you ignored is that things you have already bought or unlocked don't carry over to a new account. That is a natural incentive to play a single account, otherwise you have to rebuy those same things again.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
sorry, i'm really really drunk..
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
speak for yourself. I did it to get a pile of free character slots, a free hideout, free character slot for each 40 ,free costumes, free retcons for when I invariably screw up a build or AT. (but not bad enough to wipe it and start again)
I don't farm a lot(actually at all) so I don't have a load of money spare to retcon in game.
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Yeah, different people sub for different reasons. That said, I don't deny the fact that FF is a big factor for some people. However, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the people who do sub for the FF access aren't doing it to create a single FF character, they are doing it to create as many as they want. That being the case, giving free players a single FF slot isn't going to convince the people who want to create half a dozen FF characters not to sub. And they aren't likely to create half a dozen different accounts, because they lose access to everything they have already bought on their other accounts.
The main point of this idea is to get money you never would have gotten in the first place. To explain:
Whether Gamer Joe sticks around or not, Cryptic/PW has made money from Gamer Joe that they wouldn't have made at all if he didn't decide to come try out the game.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
All OP is doing is arguing with everything, cuz no one agrees with him. that this is a "good" idea, its not, its..terrible, this is just like selling a founders package, to players who didn't even fund the project, and then giveing away free money, and telling the gold players to take a hike.
Nothing to see fokes, let this topic die please.
Come on, kid - the first hit's free...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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PS. I'm a lifer.
PPS. Is there a way to get my green title back?
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
WARNING: Not An Actual Internet Reviewer
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Such as giving silvers the ability to choose from powers they own, they choose an initial framework from the available ATs which will set how their stats will progress. The only thing they would have control over is what powers they choose from (from the list of Ats they have purchased/own).
Considering, especially from former CoH players, that they hated the fact that freeform was locked behind a pay wall, it seems kind of ridiculous to me that Star Trek Online can seemingly survive quite well without having to lock off key features behind the subscription pay wall or even ridiculous transaction fees, meanwhile Champions lops off the biggest selling point of their game behind a massive paywall or ridiculous transaction fee. A feature that would undoubtedly have gotten a ton of people interested.
ATs were and always will be one of the biggest blunders of Champions Free to Play model. You do not try to lather your donut in vinegar and expect people to want to take a bite then.
I honestly don't get why people are so against limited freeforms for players and jut making power sets an actual C Store item to buy over time. It's just counter productive in the long run and expecting people to pay subscription fees in this day and age when it's obvious subs are pretty much dead is just silly at this point.
We would probably have had a much larger player base now if it wasn't for the pay wall and locking off the most important feature of Champions behind that wall. Our dev team would not be scraping the bottom of the barrel to slap together an update based on code and events we already have or giving us stuff in game that's already in the code as incentives. It's always better to set out honey when you want to catch flies, not vinegar.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Sorry, but CO needs money, having a free FF, whuold be the DEATH of CO.
I went LTS recently and was immediately given 21 FF slots, and on top of that was able to convert all of my lvl 40 ATs into lvl 40 FFs. That's over 1000$ worth of FF slots. You're really going to compare that to one FF slot? I haven't even mentioned all the other stuff I got in the deal. Math.
Now i'm really gonna blow your mind: You ever hear of the FF Grab Bag event? It was an event where we ran around the city doing missions and had a chance upon mission turn in to get a free FF slot. I got 3 slots doing this event.
Giving away free FF slots never going to happen? It already did :O
So but sure, I got 3 slots, so I never had a reason to buy more right? I bought 3 more. I'm not the only one. Giving away free FF slots was directly responsible not only for making Cryptic money, but for keeping players interested in the game.
Proof is in the pudding... and the pudding is all over your face.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Let's say you have 100 people to pool from for this example.
Now, the current thinking is that freeform is the only incentive people have to subscribe. Which I think is **** backwards thinking, but that's another story. There are other ways to incentivize subscription without the need for freeform.
Now, pretending out of that pool of 100 you get 20 people subscribing. That means roughly $300 dollars just went in. A long term purchase. But human beings are shown to be impulse buyers when something is reasonably priced.
The current mode is freeform is worth $50 dollars... which is basically almost the price of one full game (which ironically is not what we got at launch for paying for Champions, if you weren't a lifer, you got 8 freeform slots). Now, out of the pool of 100, you might have 6 people pay for a freeform slot. So that's $150 dollars, and that's being generous that people are actually paying for them (and not just trading in questionite).
Now, let's say we get limited freeform for silvers, and they want to have certain power sets. Let's say the power sets are roughly 15 bucks each. Because people want to experiment, and due the impulse buy nature of most people, Now you can have around say 40 people paying 15 bucks here, 15 bucks there to get specific power sets they want. But let's say 40 people just happen to buy 1 power set for their freeform character. That's $600 dollar income. But wait, they buy a new character slot now, and decide they want another power set for their freeform character, so let's say another 20 do this, that's $300 more dollars.
See where that's going? It has been unequivocally proven that if things are reasonably priced and not unfairly blocked off, that you will get more people paying and impulse buying. That means more money, and that means, over time, more income.
Now it's obvious what they did. Since Champions is not a class based system they didn't know how they were going to do this. It's **** backwards thinking, basically to try and make people pay more for less, which is essentially what is going on right now.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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1) LYING doesn't help your case. Some people agree with my general idea, or some variation of it. Others have some reservations. Either way, saying that NO ONE agrees with me or my idea is a LIE, and that only makes you look bad, not me.
2) You, like everyone else, are entitled to your opinion. However, anyone can say something is "terrible" without providing any logical argument to support that opinion. In various posts, I have provided logical arguments for why I think this would be a good idea. You provided no counter-argument to any of those points.
If you have more to add to this thread, hopefully it will not be an outright lie, and have some type of logical argument to support your opinion. If it is not, I will call it out the same way I did in this post.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Laggy performance, constant SNRs and disconnects (and no, just because it doesn't happen "for you" doesn't make it a non-issue), broken gameplay (try to get the Cybermind mission lately), the "push it to Live anyway we have a timeline" QA, NO documentation on how to play, etc.... Really, the CO defect list goes on longer than I care to type.
Case in point, not long ago I talked a long-time buddy into paying for Gold accounts so he and his 10 year old son could play with me and try CO out. Dude is stinking rich, drives the high-end Tesla, flew 1st class to CA and back to have it shipped cross-country (cost: you can't afford it) and that's AFTER paying $5 mil to the ex-wife. $50 is nothing to him, he drops twice that much on bottles of wine.
They quit, and I quote verbatim, "that buggy POS", after a couple of months. Sorry, but free FF slots would do nothing more to increase player retention than playing a free AT does. Certainly less than fixing some of the many issues would. Heh, I suspect Cryptic spends ZERO dollars on marketing CO simply because they are embarrassed by it.
And seriously man, go away and learn how to use English please.
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
But, it did give an entertaining hyperbole that you were trying to invent there, such as using a Tesla, you claim high end variation, ok, so I am going to assume the high performance P85D which with all the bells and whistles is $138,000 on their website once I turned all features that could be had on, and shipped across country (which even Tesla themselves have it listed at roughly $990 dollars) though I am sure some off the cuff shipping agency would charge up into the thousands. And my search on first class tickets the most expensive non-stop flight I could find cross country (New York to Los Angeles) was $3503.70.
So, I don't see what your point you were trying to prove is, other than making some huge hyperbole for hyperbole's sake.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Oh....oh...wait, is this what the hole topic was about?, bacily just like the FF slot slivers have, with the limited Sliver FF thingy? but free and not over 1k Zen?,...Oh..god.....
Oh..dear...
If this is the case, then I feel like a right damm idiot.
I think if cryptic actually wants a change, they have to change something themselves. if they want to bring more people in and get more money they have to change stuff in the game for that. It won't happen by itself.
Sadly I think cryptic doesn't want any changes for CO. they feel they earn a small but stable income and they prefer to not risk that to potentially getting more customers and subs but risking what they have currently.
I think an important question is wether cryptic is actually getting more on new subs lately.
Hell, other game companies give away FF equivalents for free and do fine. I'm not sure why CO would be some magical exception.
I know it's the cool fantasy that there should be a reason to get people to subscribe, but that already failed. It failed a long time ago. That's why CO is f2p and no longer a sub game.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009