Random aside. FF slots shouldnt be free but a price drop would be great
Was someone saying freeform slots should be free???
Waaaaaay back at the beginning of the conversation. You've probably forgotten.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Well, it's just one free slot per account that's being suggested and not in a general sense. I'm guessing that's why Spinny bolded the plural "s" in "slots".
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Well, it's just one free slot per account that's being suggested and not in a general sense. I'm guessing that's why Spinny bolded the plural "s" in "slots".
Yes. As it turns out, Nepht was wrong once again. s( O _ O )/
Anyone mention giving silvers a freeform slot once they hit level 40? Is that an option? Can we do that?
Can we? No. Can the devs? Yes, if they wanted to. However, doing so defeats the entire reason I posted this thread in the first place, which was that a single FF slot could be used to attract new people to the game. But that only works if you actually give it to the new people you attracted to the game. Telling them they have to wait until they level a character to max before they get it isn't a very attractive offer.
Anyone mention giving silvers a freeform slot once they hit level 40? Is that an option? Can we do that?
Can we? No. Can the devs? Yes, if they wanted to. However, doing so defeats the entire reason I posted this thread in the first place, which was that a single FF slot could be used to attract new people to the game. But that only works if you actually give it to the new people you attracted to the game. Telling them they have to wait until they level a character to max before they get it isn't a very attractive offer.
I'm not so sure about that. I mean, FF building can be intimidating and confusing for people. It may be the case that by offering a FF slot after reaching level 40, it will make players stay around longer since they'll have a reason to level a completely new character. If FF slots were available from the start of a new player's experience, I would hope there would be an easy to understand tutorial on what powers do what, how passives/forms work, etc.
I do hope the game moves towards giving silver players FF slots for free since customization is, in my opinion, what makes CO different from other games.
I do hope the game moves towards giving silver players FF slots for free since customization is, in my opinion, what makes CO different from other games.
And that is exactly why I think requiring a level 40 to get it isn't a good idea. Saying that FF is the selling point of the game, but then holding it back until max level is just bad marketing. Also, remember that before Champs went F2P, FF was all there was, so that meant all new players were able to figure it out. That said, I agree it can be complex and that a tutorial would be useful.
I'm not so sure about that. I mean, FF building can be intimidating and confusing for people.
So then you add a tutorial. You do not deny everyone a feature based on the guess that there might be some people who would be "intimidated" by it. Again, I don't know where this idea that people who have never played CO are all clueless grandparents comes from.
I'm not so sure about that. I mean, FF building can be intimidating and confusing for people. It may be the case that by offering a FF slot after reaching level 40, it will make players stay around longer since they'll have a reason to level a completely new character. If FF slots were available from the start of a new player's experience, I would hope there would be an easy to understand tutorial on what powers do what, how passives/forms work, etc.
I do hope the game moves towards giving silver players FF slots for free since customization is, in my opinion, what makes CO different from other games.
People seem to have done fine when all there was available was FF and ATs didn't exist back then. I don't see it being any harder to grasp these days as compared to before.
I'm not so sure about that. I mean, FF building can be intimidating and confusing for people.
So then you add a tutorial. You do not deny everyone a feature based on the guess that there might be some people who would be "intimidated" by it. Again, I don't know where this idea that people who have never played CO are all clueless grandparents comes from.
Honestly, all what it takes to build a functional FF is a one read through Kenpo's and Bluhman's guides. Or a friendly player to explain it in a few words. An optimalised number-crunching may take some time, but an average functional build ain't that hard at all.
But, I don't think that a requirement for understanding how to make your build should be that you go visit the forums and read guides. This isn't Dark Souls
Of course, I'm not arguing, "No don't give FFs! New people won't understand them!" but that the currently the game is not friendly to explaining how powers interact with each other, passives, forms, roles, and power synergies. Even experienced players are still unsure at times about how everything works together and what affects what. It is just something that needs to be kept in mind, and I know from personal experience that I learned most of this stuff by having a single blade AT lay it all out and show me how stuff works. There should be something to guide players along that aren't walls of text, which is why I suggested unlocking a FF at level 40 for silvers. If you just dump off new players into a FF build, some players will figure it out, others will be overwhelmed.
Ideally, I would like to see new players have access to FF as soon as they start. But when would a tutorial take place? At when they first show up in the power house? There is tons of topics they wouldn't have to deal with until later. So you'd have to have small tutorials throughout their leveling, but what is applicable at what level? You can unlock passives fairly early, as well as ADs and AOs. Do you explain what these are AFTER they select them? Or when they hit a certain level? I'm not saying that how to explain powers and specs to players can't figured out, just that it needs to be figured out. A lot of vets grew with the game, it is a bit more complicated to get right off the bat than it was in 2009 (and even in 2009 in took a second)
TL;DR New players need tutorials to help them understand CO's FF building. Tutorials need to be in game, not user made, and will require devs to figure out what is applicable to players due to the nature of FF. But making FF available to silver players will be worth it
There is no need to level lock FF... For those who are overwhelmed with FF off the bat they can choose to make an AT in their other character slot until they are more comfortable...
However, there are some big issues with the current system thatarn't helping matters much at all... 1st, the fact that several powers have misleading tooltips still... the descriptions of stats still reflect their pre-On Alert benefits, many of which are nolonger provided by the stats... some power descriptions (in the powers menu, not the mouseover tooltips) are completely off from the actual power effects... a complete lack of information as to the exact benefits provided by numerous advantage and secondary power effects... Advantaged powers not interacting with specs & forms...
All of those things complicate entry into the FF system unnessiarily and have been in major need of fixing for several years now... Add to that the fact that new players don't know what any of the acronyms we all are used to mean and you've got a rathher daunting barrier for entry... (I can't tell you how many times I've been asked "What's PFF?" "What's IDF?" "What's MSA?" "What's OD?" "What's LA?" "Whats 2GM/TGM?"... I've even gotten a few "What's Regen?" "Whats Invuln?")
We've also got Cryptic math that confuses just about everyone... I can't tell you how hard it is to explain to a new player why 100% damage resistance only gives them 50% damage reduction... If we could get tooltips updated to show real values rather than cryptic math values that would help to aliviate some issues... Something as simple as adding a line in parentheses next to or below Damage Resistance in tooltips that show the actual reduction... though it'd be more avisable to improve the stats overview tab to give a complete overview... There are several bonuses that are not displayed in the current menu from specs, forms, and passives...
But, I don't think that a requirement for understanding how to make your build should be that you go visit the forums and read guides. This isn't Dark Souls
And it isn't a requirement at all. There are a lot of exaggerated claims about how hard it is to make a functional free form character. After all, people have been leveling as Infernos and Impulses for years now.
Anyone who has played an MMO before should never need any sort of guide; a quick look through the power selection interface can be amazingly informative to someone familiar with such basic terms as "damage" and "healing".
Anyone who has played an MMO before should never need any sort of guide; a quick look through the power selection interface can be amazingly informative to someone familiar with such basic terms as "damage" and "healing".
And it would be if our power selection interface wasn't riddled with misleading descriptions, partial descriptions, and tooltips with errors...
Don't get me wrong, I don't believe FF building to be even remotely close to as complecated as many like to claim it to be... but the errors in the interface do complicate things unnessisarily... I'm running on 45+ FFs now and I don't tend to run into a lot of difficulty putting together builds. Sure I may ask for assistance on the forums from time to time, but for the most part its just to get a second opinion on a build or to help fill a gap or fix a problem that i'm having difficulty with... or just asking for advice on a power/powerset Im not familiar with.
And it would be if our power selection interface wasn't riddled with misleading descriptions, partial descriptions, and tooltips with errors...
There aren't enough of these to justify the hyperbole surrounding the notion that FF building is impossible without reading Kendo's bible. I actually get the feeling that a lot of people, upon making their first freeform, managed to make a horribly overpowered beast build simple because they made simple connections like "oh neat, if I take this I can have tons of hit points and guaranteed crits" and "oh neat, I can just take all the heals!" and similar very basic, simple observations.
Really the only thing that is legitimately difficult about FF building is keeping everything within a concept theme... and that difficulty level swings wildly from theme to theme... and won't be a factor for everyone either since there are plenty of people who don't care one bit about theme...
Really the only thing that is legitimately difficult about FF building is keeping everything within a concept theme... and that difficulty level swings wildly from theme to theme... and won't be a factor for everyone either since there are plenty of people who don't care one bit about theme...
Actually, what helped me immensely was when I started worrying more about theme and less about other folks' ideas of "viable". With any powerset I'm not familiar with, I'll start by playing an AT for a while, then see where I think it's weak and make improvements. (The one I'm leveling now and enjoying immensely, Pyretta Blaze, is pretty much an Inferno, except that Infernos tend to be glass cannons because they draw a lot of aggro with their damage but can't withstand it much. So her passive is Invulnerability instead of the fire-based one, making her much more damage-resistant. My justification is that it's a side effect of the flame her body exudes in combat, melting bullets and distorting laser beams...)
Most of the "viability" conversations I've seen have actually been discussions of how best to min/max a character, with the idea that everyone wants to do lots and lots of PvP and beat up other toons. I've never been interested in PvP, so that goes right over my head.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
I direct your attention to my AT-suggestion thread where I pretty much said let people play the whole powerset instead of cramming a poorly developed salad down their throats.
Actually, what helped me immensely was when I started worrying more about theme and less about other folks' ideas of "viable". With any powerset I'm not familiar with, I'll start by playing an AT for a while, then see where I think it's weak and make improvements. (The one I'm leveling now and enjoying immensely, Pyretta Blaze, is pretty much an Inferno, except that Infernos tend to be glass cannons because they draw a lot of aggro with their damage but can't withstand it much. So her passive is Invulnerability instead of the fire-based one, making her much more damage-resistant. My justification is that it's a side effect of the flame her body exudes in combat, melting bullets and distorting laser beams...)
Most of the "viability" conversations I've seen have actually been discussions of how best to min/max a character, with the idea that everyone wants to do lots and lots of PvP and beat up other toons. I've never been interested in PvP, so that goes right over my head.
I've got 45+ Theme builds... honestly it only became challenging to put them together after I passed the 30 builds mark... I guess mostly because I try to avoid repeating myself in my builds... If one character uses a certain power as their primary attack I tend to avoid reusing that power in another build unless it can fill a secondary role... for example my Electricity character Blastwave uses Lightning Arc as her primary attack, I have a Weather Manipulator who also uses electricity as part of her build but Lightning Arc is not in it since it would have filled a primary attack roll on her, instead she got Lightning Storm as her primary... (I also have a fire build, Serien, who is basically an Inferno with a differnt passive too, in my case she uses Regen... Glass cannon was not fun leveling her from 1~39 as an inferno... my justification is that it's just part of her natural magic... She's an Imp...)
"New players are too dumb to build a freeform character." Best reason ever not to give everyone a FF slot.
Just in case this is in reference to the points I tried to make: I really emphasized that I think giving everyone a FF slot is a great idea, just that FF building is not intuitive and is a bit complicated and the game doesn't explain different types of powers or how they work together.
Once again, before silver accounts and ATs were even a thing, there was only freeform. New players back then were just as clueless as the ones later on about the freeform system. The way the PH is set up is to allow new players to take as much time as they need to learn and experiment with different powers and how powers can work hand in hand together, along with other relevant mechanics, be it when they've just finished the tutorial, or each time they return to the PH to level up and experiment some more. Heck, the player is even reminded that power selections cannot be undone for free every time they choose to leave the PH, to encourage them to not be too hasty.
A learning process is involved and it takes time to understand things and constantly get better with using freeform. It's one of the reasons why players enjoy experimenting with new build ideas and concepts.
Well, I'm not referring to making a good build as much as just the very basic stuff. I've seen people take two passives because they thought they were getting benefits out of both at the same time, I've seen people go without taking a passive at all, or not take a form, or wonder why their passive wasn't working (It wasn't slotted - they couldn't slot it when they changed to an offensive role and had a defensive passive. "BTW what are roles?" they ask). There is lots of little stuff that seems obvious, but to a new person they might find it confusing.
I'm sure they'd figure it out eventually, it is just that there isn't a lot of in game stuff explaining these basic things. It is quite different from most MMOs that give you a class and you have a more defined role and streamlined build path. Hopefully the game makes FF free, I just hope when it does it explains building better so new players aren't looking around like, "How do I pick my class?" Fixing this can be as easy as adding another scene or two to the powerhouse trainer's tutorials.
They can always ask for Help on the Forums
Or find a list of Themed Builds like I Did *Hint* *Hint*FreeForm Build Directory*Hint* *Hint*
My First FF Character followed Man.Of.Light's Gem Star Build
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Well, I'm not referring to making a good build as much as just the very basic stuff. I've seen people take two passives because they thought they were getting benefits out of both at the same time, I've seen people go without taking a passive at all, or not take a form, or wonder why their passive wasn't working (It wasn't slotted - they couldn't slot it when they changed to an offensive role and had a defensive passive. "BTW what are roles?" they ask). There is lots of little stuff that seems obvious, but to a new person they might find it confusing.
I'm sure they'd figure it out eventually, it is just that there isn't a lot of in game stuff explaining these basic things. It is quite different from most MMOs that give you a class and you have a more defined role and streamlined build path. Hopefully the game makes FF free, I just hope when it does it explains building better so new players aren't looking around like, "How do I pick my class?" Fixing this can be as easy as adding another scene or two to the powerhouse trainer's tutorials.
As long as that tutorial is OPTIONAL for everyone who already knows what they are doing, sure why not.
Most of the "viability" conversations I've seen have actually been discussions of how best to min/max a character
^ this hits the nail square on the head. Some people have begun to confuse "viable" and "min/max'd" and are effectively using them as interchangeable terms. In some peoples eyes, if you make a toon that's not min/max'd, then you have failed and need to be "taught" how to make a FF toon. It really makes me sad when a new player actually listens to these people too, because they're getting the wool firmly wrapped around their head.
Most of the "viability" conversations I've seen have actually been discussions of how best to min/max a character
^ this hits the nail square on the head. Some people have begun to confuse "viable" and "min/max'd" and are effectively using them as interchangeable terms. In some peoples eyes, if you make a toon that's not min/max'd, then you have failed and need to be "taught" how to make a FF toon. It really makes me sad when a new player actually listens to these people too, because they're getting the wool firmly wrapped around their head.
Except for me. I'm not. I know the difference and pointed it out in my earlier post. It isn't about min/maxing or even making a viable build. It is an observation that the mechanics of FF are not clearly spelled out to new players.
Most of the "viability" conversations I've seen have actually been discussions of how best to min/max a character
^ this hits the nail square on the head. Some people have begun to confuse "viable" and "min/max'd" and are effectively using them as interchangeable terms. In some peoples eyes, if you make a toon that's not min/max'd, then you have failed and need to be "taught" how to make a FF toon. It really makes me sad when a new player actually listens to these people too, because they're getting the wool firmly wrapped around their head.
Except for me. I'm not. I know the difference and pointed it out in my earlier post. It isn't about min/maxing or even making a viable build. It is an observation that the mechanics of FF are not clearly spelled out to new players.
so just add some text to things like passives that say "This can't be used at the same time as other passives". Boom jams.
This game isn't actually all that complicated, so a real in depth understanding of how the powers work isn't really needed. Once people know which ones can't be used simultaneously, they're good to go and start spamming the same power repeatedly at brain dead npcs.
Comments
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Random aside. FF slots shouldnt be free but a price drop would be great
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I do hope the game moves towards giving silver players FF slots for free since customization is, in my opinion, what makes CO different from other games.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Lots of great builds there and tons of help if a player needs a tweak. Kenpo and many others are very helpful with choosing variations on the themes.
Of course, I'm not arguing, "No don't give FFs! New people won't understand them!" but that the currently the game is not friendly to explaining how powers interact with each other, passives, forms, roles, and power synergies. Even experienced players are still unsure at times about how everything works together and what affects what. It is just something that needs to be kept in mind, and I know from personal experience that I learned most of this stuff by having a single blade AT lay it all out and show me how stuff works. There should be something to guide players along that aren't walls of text, which is why I suggested unlocking a FF at level 40 for silvers. If you just dump off new players into a FF build, some players will figure it out, others will be overwhelmed.
Ideally, I would like to see new players have access to FF as soon as they start. But when would a tutorial take place? At when they first show up in the power house? There is tons of topics they wouldn't have to deal with until later. So you'd have to have small tutorials throughout their leveling, but what is applicable at what level? You can unlock passives fairly early, as well as ADs and AOs. Do you explain what these are AFTER they select them? Or when they hit a certain level? I'm not saying that how to explain powers and specs to players can't figured out, just that it needs to be figured out. A lot of vets grew with the game, it is a bit more complicated to get right off the bat than it was in 2009 (and even in 2009 in took a second)
TL;DR New players need tutorials to help them understand CO's FF building. Tutorials need to be in game, not user made, and will require devs to figure out what is applicable to players due to the nature of FF. But making FF available to silver players will be worth it
However, there are some big issues with the current system thatarn't helping matters much at all... 1st, the fact that several powers have misleading tooltips still... the descriptions of stats still reflect their pre-On Alert benefits, many of which are nolonger provided by the stats... some power descriptions (in the powers menu, not the mouseover tooltips) are completely off from the actual power effects... a complete lack of information as to the exact benefits provided by numerous advantage and secondary power effects... Advantaged powers not interacting with specs & forms...
All of those things complicate entry into the FF system unnessiarily and have been in major need of fixing for several years now... Add to that the fact that new players don't know what any of the acronyms we all are used to mean and you've got a rathher daunting barrier for entry... (I can't tell you how many times I've been asked "What's PFF?" "What's IDF?" "What's MSA?" "What's OD?" "What's LA?" "Whats 2GM/TGM?"... I've even gotten a few "What's Regen?" "Whats Invuln?")
We've also got Cryptic math that confuses just about everyone... I can't tell you how hard it is to explain to a new player why 100% damage resistance only gives them 50% damage reduction... If we could get tooltips updated to show real values rather than cryptic math values that would help to aliviate some issues... Something as simple as adding a line in parentheses next to or below Damage Resistance in tooltips that show the actual reduction... though it'd be more avisable to improve the stats overview tab to give a complete overview... There are several bonuses that are not displayed in the current menu from specs, forms, and passives...
Anyone who has played an MMO before should never need any sort of guide; a quick look through the power selection interface can be amazingly informative to someone familiar with such basic terms as "damage" and "healing".
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Don't get me wrong, I don't believe FF building to be even remotely close to as complecated as many like to claim it to be... but the errors in the interface do complicate things unnessisarily... I'm running on 45+ FFs now and I don't tend to run into a lot of difficulty putting together builds. Sure I may ask for assistance on the forums from time to time, but for the most part its just to get a second opinion on a build or to help fill a gap or fix a problem that i'm having difficulty with... or just asking for advice on a power/powerset Im not familiar with.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Most of the "viability" conversations I've seen have actually been discussions of how best to min/max a character, with the idea that everyone wants to do lots and lots of PvP and beat up other toons. I've never been interested in PvP, so that goes right over my head.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
A learning process is involved and it takes time to understand things and constantly get better with using freeform. It's one of the reasons why players enjoy experimenting with new build ideas and concepts.
I'm sure they'd figure it out eventually, it is just that there isn't a lot of in game stuff explaining these basic things. It is quite different from most MMOs that give you a class and you have a more defined role and streamlined build path. Hopefully the game makes FF free, I just hope when it does it explains building better so new players aren't looking around like, "How do I pick my class?" Fixing this can be as easy as adding another scene or two to the powerhouse trainer's tutorials.
Or find a list of Themed Builds like I Did *Hint* *Hint* FreeForm Build Directory*Hint* *Hint*
My First FF Character followed Man.Of.Light's Gem Star Build
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
This game isn't actually all that complicated, so a real in depth understanding of how the powers work isn't really needed. Once people know which ones can't be used simultaneously, they're good to go and start spamming the same power repeatedly at brain dead npcs.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.