Well, I don't know about the yet another rant thing, if it came off as a rant that was not intentional, there was no furor behind my words, just some thoughts relating to the topic of FF slots and how as someone who isn't already heavily invested, how they impact me and my likelihood to invest money into CO as things stand.
I am very much aware of why I cannot play my old character, though disappointed to see I couldn't apply the FF slot to him. Another point against buying that slot then even at a half off sale, I do not relish the idea of deleting and then grinding him back up to 30. Honestly, though that may not be how it works, it really should be.
I never said I should get stuff for free now that is currently a paid service because I used to play. I commented on the way things are currently set up creating a negative experience as a f2p player where I am a second class citizen and where the only way to climb out of such a position is an overpriced FF slot, or subbing, which kind of goes against the f2p thing. I have nothing against spending money mind you, and have spent more than my fair share in the past in f2p games, but I require there to be a sense of value in that exchange, one that I don't feel is currently present.
I just have no connection to this character and don't want to spend money on it since it will always feel limited, or second class
I commented on the way things are currently set up creating a negative experience as a f2p player where I am a second class citizen and where the only way to climb out of such a position is an overpriced FF slot
Now, here's the thing. I came to this game having played a few ARPGs, a little STO and Neverwinter, but no great depth of experience of character building and power choices. Some of the ATs I played were a great intro to the game (which is why I subscribed), but the appeal fell away as I realised how limited they were. Some of those ATs I have taken into every part of the game - and I mean full set of Justice Gear, Therakiel's Temple and all - and played without ever feeling second class. Sometimes the limitations of the toon are part of the fun... it means you have to think about mechanics, positioning, movement.... stuff that makes it feel as if success depends on the skill of the player, rather a nicely packaged set of specs and powers which guarantee success to all but the really inept. (I have those toons too, though. It's also fun to be a superman).
Before you spend your $25 for a half-price FF slot and then subject us all to yet another rant, be warned - when you purchase any character slot, only a new character can go in there. If you purchase an FF slot, you can re-create your old toon - but you can't just slide him in there, that's not how character slots work.
Also, the reason you can't play your old toon is because you made him back when Gold was the only option. You were subbed at the time, or maybe got in on a free weekend - but the point is that you either paid to play him at the time, or would have had to, had you continued past the free time. Accordingly, if you want to play that Gold character now, you need Gold status. It's not a new thing; the only thing new for you here is the fact that Gold isn't the only thing going on these days. You can't get the stuff folks pay for for free now, just because you used to pay back in the day.
It may not be new, but it shows just how bad Champs F2P model is. Seriously: what other F2P game won't let you play your characters from before F2P without a complete re-roll of their skills? I can't think of any. It's a major reason NOT to come back to a game, which is the exact opposite of the reaction they should want people to have if they want their business.
Guild Wars 2 is now F2P with the exception of the expansion. But damn do they make sure you know they want you to buy the thing. I played it the day after it went free and I haven't touched it since. I keep thinking about the TWO icons, one of which has a noticeable flashing thing, telling me to buy the expansion.
I don't know why Cryptic still does that asinine shoving the sub in people's face nonsense. Yes, thank you, I know you want me to spend money but how about f-off and let me spend it if I choose to. Presenting the company as a bunch of greedy shits that want your money doesn't inspire consumer confidence. Treating customers like wallets with legs is a long time, industry wide problem.
If I hadn't been playing CO back in the day when F2P games didn't exists, I most likely would be irritated by the new player experience now, never bothering to give the game a second thought. Especially after playing something like Path of Exile which gives out 24 free character slots with no restrictions on how you make a character. Bonus, no cash shop being shoved in my face. If an indie studio can make it work, a large company with money to blow should as well.
It may not be new, but it shows just how bad Champs F2P model is. Seriously: what other F2P game won't let you play your characters from before F2P without a complete re-roll of their skills? I can't think of any. It's a major reason NOT to come back to a game, which is the exact opposite of the reaction they should want people to have if they want their business.
Well, how have other games approached this problem?
Ah, there's the rub. Other games don't have this problem because they don't have such an open character creation system. Once again, it's easy to say something is bad when you're sitting on this side of things.
I won't disagree that it can put you off from wanting to play. My brother was a member for a long time, then his account lapsed, and since he didn't have the budget for it, went to play the game as free. The characters he'd played together with me were locked away, so he had to start a new one, and he only ended up playing for a small amount of time. It wasn't great.
It may not be new, but it shows just how bad Champs F2P model is. Seriously: what other F2P game won't let you play your characters from before F2P without a complete re-roll of their skills? I can't think of any. It's a major reason NOT to come back to a game, which is the exact opposite of the reaction they should want people to have if they want their business.
Well, how have other games approached this problem?
Ah, there's the rub. Other games don't have this problem because they don't have such an open character creation system. Once again, it's easy to say something is bad when you're sitting on this side of things.
A solution that they could have done: Many Ex-P2P games give those who were paying before F2P a "Preferred Status" benefit while they are F2P. For Champions, this benefit could have been something as simple as "continue to play X# of your pre-existing FF characters, but all new characters much be ATs". Lets take a look at TOR when it went F2P, if you made a character who was not of one of the F2P races and then went F2P you could still play that character, no forced race change or anything, but all new characters had to be of F2P races. Previous subscribers also had their character slots expanded from 2 to 7... this is the Preferred Status system in action... giving prior subscribers a small fraction of their subscription benefits while they are between subscriptions.
Preferred Status does a lot for PR as well, while there will still be a number of benefits that are locked behind subscription or other pay walls, getting these small little extras for having subscribed is like being told "we want you as a subscriber, but we won't force it, enjoy this while you think it over" rather than "we want you as a subscriber, you can have this back when you reconsider"
Lets say CO implemented a Preferred Status benefit that gave you 2 extra Silver character slots, and you may continue to play any of your FF characters so long as you have Silver Character Slots for them. So a new player who subscribed for 1 month and never bought any extra character slots and never got any of the free bonus slots would be able to keep up to 4 of their FFs when their subscription lapses. If they later acquire another character slot they could either bring another pre-existing FF over to play or create an AT... if Preferred Status is added along with 1 Free FF slot for silvers, then if they haven't already used their 1 silver FF slot at this point, they could still create 1 FF while silver...
It may not be new, but it shows just how bad Champs F2P model is. Seriously: what other F2P game won't let you play your characters from before F2P without a complete re-roll of their skills? I can't think of any. It's a major reason NOT to come back to a game, which is the exact opposite of the reaction they should want people to have if they want their business.
Well, how have other games approached this problem?
Ah, there's the rub. Other games don't have this problem because they don't have such an open character creation system. Once again, it's easy to say something is bad when you're sitting on this side of things.
I won't disagree that it can put you off from wanting to play. My brother was a member for a long time, then his account lapsed, and since he didn't have the budget for it, went to play the game as free. The characters he'd played together with me were locked away, so he had to start a new one, and he only ended up playing for a small amount of time. It wasn't great.
The Secret World: Buy to Play, makes its money off of xp boosters, new mission sets, and cosmetic items. Its character creation is more open than champions online, being able to freely switch between power sets on the fly assuming you've unlocked the skills as you leveled up. Has had regular content updates and new features, like vehicles, added since launch.
Aside from that, what makes you think it has been a success for CO? I am genuinely curious why you think the current model works when, again lapsed player and maybe I just haven't been hearing about all the CO news, in as far as I can tell CO hasn't exactly been doing great; especially when compared to its 'sister' title STO, which isn't as restrictive in its f2p offerings and has been getting a whole lot more support in terms of content expansions.
I agree, it seems like big companies in the MMO industry do not want the kind of freedom Champions or CoX provided its playerbase. The other MMORPG out in the market are very linear, which leads me to the assumption that if CO becomes the standard of the MMO scene due to popularity, big players (companies) are going to have a hard time in producing new titles simply because they have to rework their entire structure and it would make the MMO market more competitive in terms of gameplay and core aspects - the community.
I also find it hard that ARC does not show Champions in their games list section but shows up if you search for it using the search bar. It could just be some coding issue in the site or something and I hope they aren't giving up on CO just like CoX.
It may not be new, but it shows just how bad Champs F2P model is. Seriously: what other F2P game won't let you play your characters from before F2P without a complete re-roll of their skills? I can't think of any. It's a major reason NOT to come back to a game, which is the exact opposite of the reaction they should want people to have if they want their business.
Well, how have other games approached this problem?
Ah, there's the rub. Other games don't have this problem because they don't have such an open character creation system. Once again, it's easy to say something is bad when you're sitting on this side of things.
I won't disagree that it can put you off from wanting to play. My brother was a member for a long time, then his account lapsed, and since he didn't have the budget for it, went to play the game as free. The characters he'd played together with me were locked away, so he had to start a new one, and he only ended up playing for a small amount of time. It wasn't great.
It's like I said before, and in the blog I wrote: Champs gameplay is fundamentally different than most games. In most games, it is the playable content itself, the various missions, that is the core element of gameplay. But in Champs, it is your powers, and the ability to customize them as you please. So every other game that goes F2P is giving you it's core gameplay for free, while Champs isn't. Champs still has the barrier to entry that you have to pay to get past, so it isn't truly F2P, and therefore isn't truly benefiting from the F2P model to the extent that it could have.
When Rift went f2p, old members got to keep all of their stuff. Characters, bags, vet rewards, everything. They even gave players a bunch of money to spend in the cash shop based on how long they sub'd. I had enough to buy a premium mount and some other stuff, which gave me more loyalty rewards. I also ended up getting the Storm Legion souls for free. They made it more than worth returning.
Age of Conan let me keep a character that became a pay for after the f2p transition.
Making it not suck to return to Champs would be just as great as making the new player experience not be full of sadness.
Interesting to see lifetime subscribers speculate about the implications of having 1 FF slot. I'm a silver player, who has bought a couple of freeform slots... and I agree with the OP, give folks a FF slot! Or at least let them unlock one by reaching x-level with an AT.
The ATs (especially the free ones) are very boring to play. Most MMOs have classes, but they generally have more interesting gear options... you can chose your weapon, or use a bow, go 2-handed or sword an board. You get very little of that kind of flexibility with the ATs system. If you want new players to think this is a terrible, boring, rigid game, then ATs are the perfect tool.
On a related(?) note. The whole micro-transaction route is very poorly realized. Silvers can't recolor powers (for example)... not even for a purchased FF character. There is no way to even get a one-time recolor at the zen store. Gawd I really love those glaring purple-pink psi-powers!
Before you spend your $25 for a half-price FF slot and then subject us all to yet another rant, be warned - when you purchase any character slot, only a new character can go in there. If you purchase an FF slot, you can re-create your old toon - but you can't just slide him in there, that's not how character slots work.
Also, the reason you can't play your old toon is because you made him back when Gold was the only option. You were subbed at the time, or maybe got in on a free weekend - but the point is that you either paid to play him at the time, or would have had to, had you continued past the free time. Accordingly, if you want to play that Gold character now, you need Gold status. It's not a new thing; the only thing new for you here is the fact that Gold isn't the only thing going on these days. You can't get the stuff folks pay for for free now, just because you used to pay back in the day.
It may not be new, but it shows just how bad Champs F2P model is. Seriously: what other F2P game won't let you play your characters from before F2P without a complete re-roll of their skills?
WoW. Sure, their "F2P" is a bad joke - it stops at lvl 20, just when you can finally get a mount - but it's F2P until then. But if you had a toon while subbed, even if that toon's less than lvl 20, you can't play it in their "F2P" mode.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Before you spend your $25 for a half-price FF slot and then subject us all to yet another rant, be warned - when you purchase any character slot, only a new character can go in there. If you purchase an FF slot, you can re-create your old toon - but you can't just slide him in there, that's not how character slots work.
Also, the reason you can't play your old toon is because you made him back when Gold was the only option. You were subbed at the time, or maybe got in on a free weekend - but the point is that you either paid to play him at the time, or would have had to, had you continued past the free time. Accordingly, if you want to play that Gold character now, you need Gold status. It's not a new thing; the only thing new for you here is the fact that Gold isn't the only thing going on these days. You can't get the stuff folks pay for for free now, just because you used to pay back in the day.
It may not be new, but it shows just how bad Champs F2P model is. Seriously: what other F2P game won't let you play your characters from before F2P without a complete re-roll of their skills?
WoW. Sure, their "F2P" is a bad joke - it stops at lvl 20, just when you can finally get a mount - but it's F2P until then. But if you had a toon while subbed, even if that toon's less than lvl 20, you can't play it in their "F2P" mode.
WoW is not a F2P game. Like you just said, it is an extended trial. I'm talking about games that have actually changed to a F2P model.
Before you spend your $25 for a half-price FF slot and then subject us all to yet another rant, be warned - when you purchase any character slot, only a new character can go in there. If you purchase an FF slot, you can re-create your old toon - but you can't just slide him in there, that's not how character slots work.
Also, the reason you can't play your old toon is because you made him back when Gold was the only option. You were subbed at the time, or maybe got in on a free weekend - but the point is that you either paid to play him at the time, or would have had to, had you continued past the free time. Accordingly, if you want to play that Gold character now, you need Gold status. It's not a new thing; the only thing new for you here is the fact that Gold isn't the only thing going on these days. You can't get the stuff folks pay for for free now, just because you used to pay back in the day.
It may not be new, but it shows just how bad Champs F2P model is. Seriously: what other F2P game won't let you play your characters from before F2P without a complete re-roll of their skills?
WoW. Sure, their "F2P" is a bad joke - it stops at lvl 20, just when you can finally get a mount - but it's F2P until then. But if you had a toon while subbed, even if that toon's less than lvl 20, you can't play it in their "F2P" mode.
WoW is not a F2P game. Like you just said, it is an extended trial. I'm talking about games that have actually changed to a F2P model.
indeed... they don't even try to call it a F2P model either, they flat out tell you "Try it for Free" not "Play for free"... but "Try"
I am a LTS holder and I support free freeform slots for silvers. This wont hurt Cryptics profits so whats the harm.
1. Its not like FF slots are bringing in heavy monthly income for Cryptic. That title goes to Lock Boxes... 2. Its more fun to play with other FFs 3. Free FF may attract more players who will buy more lock boxes. 4. Wildstar FTP lets you experience the entire game for free and only sells you cosmetics. 5. This game is OLD. If the game shuts down, it won't be because Silvers got Free FF slots. 6. Free FF slots is the biggest thing you can do to drum up interest next to going FTP or moving to consoles.
If the sale of FF slots isn't bringing in at least 10k a year than dump it, or at least put FF slots in lock boxes.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
I will likely never say anything like this ever again... but... THIS... This would make me actually want to buy keys to open lockboxes... even though I already have an LTS... If I could get FF slot tokens from lockboxes I'd buy keys all the time for the chance of getting FF slots to give to friends and help them out... plus making them a potential lockbox reward would make them more accessable to new players instead of just being locked behind a $50 pay wall or Sub/LTS, people might be more willing to try their luck on $10 worth of key... It would goes hand-in-hand with what they said they were doing with the Ravenwood Lockboxes too... "Adding more items that players actually want from the lockbox"... honestly all the account service tokens that were available from Grab Bags durring the FF Grab Bag event would make for excelent Lockbox rewards that people ACCTUALLY WANT.... And now I return to my usual Lockbox despising self...
It's like I said before, and in the blog I wrote: Champs gameplay is fundamentally different than most games. In most games, it is the playable content itself, the various missions, that is the core element of gameplay. But in Champs, it is your powers, and the ability to customize them as you please. So every other game that goes F2P is giving you it's core gameplay for free, while Champs isn't. Champs still has the barrier to entry that you have to pay to get past, so it isn't truly F2P, and therefore isn't truly benefiting from the F2P model to the extent that it could have.
That's debatable. The playable content in CO is arguably just as important and as much of a "core" as to why people even bother with the game. If CO's gameplay was absolutely mediocre I highly doubt that the customization would be enough to keep players around for an extended period of time.
I've played LOTRO a while back and remember that players playing for free were expected to pony up actual money to access a new zone for levelling up when they have reached a certain level criteria in the current zone that they're in. If they didn't want to pay up, they were forced to complete every unnecessary grindy complete X/X task available in the zone that had nothing to do with character progression just to get enough merit points as an alternative.
Oh and the zones and game world in general in LOTRO are huge, so owning a horse is crucial if you don't want to spend a huge chunk of your gameplay time travelling on foot that can take minutes or even a full hour. Guess what? Free players must pay real money to buy a Riding Skill from the store before they can actually start buying an ingame horse.
Compared to CO that lets a free player experience every ounce of content in the game without paying a single cent, I highly disagree nor expect that "every" other game out there is actually that generous by default with how they offer their "core" gameplay or content to free players.
Aside from that, what makes you think it has been a success for CO? I am genuinely curious why you think the current model works when, again lapsed player and maybe I just haven't been hearing about all the CO news, in as far as I can tell CO hasn't exactly been doing great; especially when compared to its 'sister' title STO, which isn't as restrictive in its f2p offerings and has been getting a whole lot more support in terms of content expansions.
If it hasn't been made absolutely clear by now, I'm all for giving free players some form of free freeform. I'm not here to say what's been a success and what hasn't been. All I know is that the current model has kept the game going for years. Whether it has room to improve (which I think it probably does) has no effect on what I think would be more profitable or less profitable for the game.
That said, I'll address your point directly. Does the current model work and is it a success? Yes, the game keeps itself running. It is measurably more a success than it is a failure. It is factually doing better than other games that have shut down because they were not doing as well. Is there room to improve? Yeah, probably. Could some of these suggestions made by players affect the game in a way that it would make the game tank? Yeah, probably. Could go either way. I don't know.
That said, I'll address your point directly. Does the current model work and is it a success? Yes, the game keeps itself running. It is measurably more a success than it is a failure. It is factually doing better than other games that have shut down because they were not doing as well. Is there room to improve? Yeah, probably. Could some of these suggestions made by players affect the game in a way that it would make the game tank? Yeah, probably. Could go either way. I don't know.
Fair points, but I think there is an argument to be made that there may be a distinction between treading water, and success.
When I look at many other p2p games that went f2p, many of them had a noticable uptick in content development following the conversion thanks to increased revenue. Dungeons & Dragons Online languished with content updates being few and far between, but following its conversion saw multiple expansions, regular content packs, new classes, new and updated systems.
Maybe that isn't a good example, I don't know, but I do not think that CO is an inherently bad game, and they do not seem to be getting much out of their current system. (That, or its funds are being redirected elsewhere which would be a whole different issue.) I would be keen to see it have the opportunity to flourish like some other f2p conversions have, which would be beneficial to the playerbase as a whole, and that won't happen under the current system. If it was going to, it would have by now. So seeing some of the long time players actively argue against the potential to do so based on they feel like they will be 'losing' what makes them special seems incredibly short sighted. (Not meaning you specifically Biff, just the earlier parts of this thread had a lot of it. Your first reply to me had a perceived tone to it that I initially assumed you were one of them.)
Anyway, having noticed the sale on FF slots, and the bonus points, I decided to grab one. I still think even $25 is too expensive, but I was bored and enjoying my time here on the forum talking about it, so figured what the hell.
That said, I'll address your point directly. Does the current model work and is it a success? Yes, the game keeps itself running. It is measurably more a success than it is a failure. It is factually doing better than other games that have shut down because they were not doing as well. Is there room to improve? Yeah, probably. Could some of these suggestions made by players affect the game in a way that it would make the game tank? Yeah, probably. Could go either way. I don't know.
Fair points, but I think there is an argument to be made that there may be a distinction between treading water, and success.
Definitely agree. Any other game that I can think of that has gone F2P seems to be putting out content more regularly than Champs is. So the question is, what is the difference? Well, Tumerboy confirmed a while back: development is directly proportionate to revenue. Champs very meager development is directly proportionate to equally meager revenue. It just so happens that it apparently doesn't cost much to keep the game running, so they haven't shut it down.
Got bored with DDO shortly after getting to the second town - do they still require you to pony up cash for the new expansions, races, and classes?
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
That said, I'll address your point directly. Does the current model work and is it a success? Yes, the game keeps itself running. It is measurably more a success than it is a failure. It is factually doing better than other games that have shut down because they were not doing as well. Is there room to improve? Yeah, probably. Could some of these suggestions made by players affect the game in a way that it would make the game tank? Yeah, probably. Could go either way. I don't know.
Fair points, but I think there is an argument to be made that there may be a distinction between treading water, and success.
Definitely agree. Any other game that I can think of that has gone F2P seems to be putting out content more regularly than Champs is. So the question is, what is the difference? Well, Tumerboy confirmed a while back: development is directly proportionate to revenue. Champs very meager development is directly proportionate to equally meager revenue. It just so happens that it apparently doesn't cost much to keep the game running, so they haven't shut it down.
It could be more of a success, yes. Absolutely. But we know that they made decent decisions on how the game is run because it is at least running. I'd rather have that than them trying some crazy stuff and then having to shut down because of it. Were I in charge, though, I think I'd have tried something years ago instead of letting it just sit.
Got bored with DDO shortly after getting to the second town - do they still require you to pony up cash for the new expansions, races, and classes?
New Races and Classes are generally $10-$15. (older is usually cheaper, newest is usually 15)
Expansions are varied in price, ranging from $25 up to $50 if you get the larger bundles. (There have been 2, both came after f2p and before then new content was scarce.)
To bring it back to thread topic, you might consider the customization options available to a DDO character as compared to a freeform character. DDO actually has something similar to AT's called a Path. Each class has 3 paths that basically guide a character along a single pre-determined route, each path having its own focus.
A cleric for instance might be a battle cleric that mixes in some melee combat with spells, or could be an offensive caster cleric using divine spells for damage, or just your standard healer. If you are new and want to be a cleric you could pick one of these paths and be fairly 'safe' from making build mistakes. Far from optimal, but there you have it.
Now, unlike CO these are not the only option for f2p, you can choose to not take a path, and build a cleric how you like, and it does not cost 50 dollars per slot to do it. Maybe you want to multiclass and be a monk/cleric hybrid, or take a couple of levels of paladin. Then you have feat choices which number in the dozens every few levels, and the enhancement trees which vary based on the classes you have, and all of that is without getting into epic destinies which further allow for customization options.
The best comparison would be to imagine if CO instead allowed most of the core powersets to be freely used, then actively developed new unique power sets and sold them separately as a one time account/slot wide purchase (ranging from $10-$15, not $50, keep it low enough to be an impulse buy). Archetypes could remain as a free option for people learning, but a player could at anytime choose to leave the Archetype and start making their own choices. Instead of selling FF slots they could instead focus on new cosmetic items, new content in the form of mission packs or powersets.
But I honestly doubt they will do any major shake ups in their f2p format, would be nice though if it meant there might be some focus put into the game from cryptic.
But I honestly doubt they will do any major shake ups in their f2p format, would be nice though if it meant there might be some focus put into the game from cryptic.
I wouldn't completely write it off. There was a time when freeform slots didn't even exist. And they're trying new things recently. So there's always a chance.
Definitely agree. Any other game that I can think of that has gone F2P seems to be putting out content more regularly than Champs is. So the question is, what is the difference? Well, Tumerboy confirmed a while back: development is directly proportionate to revenue. Champs very meager development is directly proportionate to equally meager revenue. It just so happens that it apparently doesn't cost much to keep the game running, so they haven't shut it down.
That is true now, under Perfect World. That was NOT true under Atari. Champs went F2P on Atari's watch and they f'd it up nicely. The difference is, for some reason, Cryptic did not capitalize on the initial F2P pop increase. People were moved to STO, which wasn't doing so hot.
While Perfect World's policy is fair, the damage to Champs was done before Cryptic was bought out and is now suffering the consequences of the handling under Atari.
Definitely agree. Any other game that I can think of that has gone F2P seems to be putting out content more regularly than Champs is. So the question is, what is the difference? Well, Tumerboy confirmed a while back: development is directly proportionate to revenue. Champs very meager development is directly proportionate to equally meager revenue. It just so happens that it apparently doesn't cost much to keep the game running, so they haven't shut it down.
That is true now, under Perfect World. That was NOT true under Atari. Champs went F2P on Atari's watch and they f'd it up nicely. The difference is, for some reason, Cryptic did not capitalize on the initial F2P pop increase. People were moved to STO, which wasn't doing so hot.
While Perfect World's policy is fair, the damage to Champs was done before Cryptic was bought out and is now suffering the consequences of the handling under Atari.
While reasonable, I mean Atari has mismanaged everything they have touched for over a decade, there comes a certain point to where you cannot blame Atari anymore. PWE has owned Cryptic and Champions for some time now, it isn't like they have not had the time to make changes. At some point when you see something being poorly managed, and then you take ownership of it and do nothing to fix it, you are now the one poorly managing it.
Definitely agree. Any other game that I can think of that has gone F2P seems to be putting out content more regularly than Champs is. So the question is, what is the difference? Well, Tumerboy confirmed a while back: development is directly proportionate to revenue. Champs very meager development is directly proportionate to equally meager revenue. It just so happens that it apparently doesn't cost much to keep the game running, so they haven't shut it down.
That is true now, under Perfect World. That was NOT true under Atari. Champs went F2P on Atari's watch and they f'd it up nicely. The difference is, for some reason, Cryptic did not capitalize on the initial F2P pop increase. People were moved to STO, which wasn't doing so hot.
While Perfect World's policy is fair, the damage to Champs was done before Cryptic was bought out and is now suffering the consequences of the handling under Atari.
While reasonable, I mean Atari has mismanaged everything they have touched for over a decade, there comes a certain point to where you cannot blame Atari anymore. PWE has owned Cryptic and Champions for some time now, it isn't like they have not had the time to make changes. At some point when you see something being poorly managed, and then you take ownership of it and do nothing to fix it, you are now the one poorly managing it.
Yea... PW kinda just pushed CO to the backburner after they acquired Cryptic... Atleast under Atari's management CO was getting updates... they may not have been the updates the game needed, but they were happening...
Some consequences take years to see the effects. Atari set CO up for failure with the f2p transition, which is still a big minus for the game. PW actually has experience with f2p games coming from a country where it's already a mature business model.
I think a better solution would be to scrap the AT system, and have new players choose 2 powersets to start with which they can use to build freeforms within those sets, with the other power sets being unlockable for silvers via Zen store.
I don't know if handicapping the Freeform system is a good way of showing it off.
It's the system City of Heroes used, and it worked well.
Making new content. Actual new content is a better way to get players new and old to come and play the game.
The game was close to the state it's in now, they released alerts, and there was a resurgence of players. We haven't had new content since 2012, so it's about time.
I think a better solution would be to scrap the AT system, and have new players choose 2 powersets to start with which they can use to build freeforms within those sets, with the other power sets being unlockable for silvers via Zen store.
I don't know if handicapping the Freeform system is a good way of showing it off.
It's the system City of Heroes used, and it worked well.
Making new content. Actual new content is a better way to get players new and old to come and play the game.
The game was close to the state it's in now, they released alerts, and there was a resurgence of players. We haven't had new content since 2012, so it's about time.
Here is the problem: development is based on revenue. Yes, "new content" would be great, but new content is development, and Champs is apparently not making enough revenue to get much new content made. That being the case, they have to do something to get the revenue up first, before they can fund the development of any significant amount of new content. That is why I think the free FF slot is necessary at this point. It is something that doesn't cost money to develop, because it is already made. And if they can use it as a promotional tool to attract new people to the game and get some of them to spend money on other things, then that money can go into actual content development.
I know that i'm new and I only have a single FF Slot (Waiting for the CaD to rise in value before getting anything else) but I do have a suggestion I think is pretty good overall.
Give players the ability to turn their character into a FF for free once per account once they reach say, level 15 or 20.
1: Players who just got in won't be overwhelmed by the FF system and pick badly/screw up. 2: Harder to "Game the system" since there's a time invested requirement. 3: This one's a bit underhanded, but the major improvement in power a good FF could be for a player could be an incentive to sub or buy another one. The First shot's free and you FEEL the impact rather than just getting it. 4: Does it hide FF behind a paywall, makes game more welcoming to newbies. 5: Still makes paying the best option.
In short: You want F2P players even if they don't pay, because they're practically the best NPC AI you can think of, You'd rather have another player by your side than say, that idiot AI who just pulled half the map, they're often funnier and more spontaneous, and it fleshes out your game and makes it feel alive, and sure, Paying players ALSO do that, but more is always more in this case. Unless you're a hypercrowded game like World of Warcraft, more people out and about on the gameworld gives a better "Feel" than an abandoned ghost town, at the same time, the paying players have shinies that clearly are fun and neat to use like being able to sizeshift, or while you fly around like some superpowered peasant, they sit back and relax on their hovertank, or have this giant glow around them, it doesn't really cause "Envy" as much since it has minimal effect on power, but more like "Hey cool, I really want that, maybe it is worth the cost" turning paying players into walk ads the non-paying ones WANT to be near just as much as other non-paying players. The payment shouldn't feel forced, and it shouldn't be something that takes away from the challenge. While CO doesn't do the latter, it occasionally indulges the former, but only slightly in terms of FF being more powerful than archetypes. Note that this isn't NEARLY as big as most games have it, but it still "Stings" a bit. Make more items like Tf2's Diamond ring, less like Eve online's stupid monocle, make it feel like you're doing something nice, or making a global scream over the game like the biggest bad joke ever (THE UNITED STATES ACCEPTED MEXICOS IMMIGRANTS, for example is something I actually saw once) Make things like Dota 2's hero items, not League's "Pay to get this FOTM Champion". etc etc
Even more TLDR: Players are uber-advanced NPCs for MMOs, Don't be too oppressive when monetizing, players who don't pay aren't bad for the game, give players a fair shake at getting things by investing time as well.
I think Freeforms becoming freely accessible at some point is simply a matter of when. Freeform to me basically IS champions online, so if F2P is a model that lets you experience the base game for free, I think Freeforms being made freely available is eventually going to happen.
I think now's the time to do it, too. The game seems to be approaching a new "era" and it would be neat to see it celebrated with some free freeform slots. Again, I think a one-time Christmas day gift would be cool.
But I honestly doubt they will do any major shake ups in their f2p format, would be nice though if it meant there might be some focus put into the game from cryptic.
I wouldn't completely write it off. There was a time when freeform slots didn't even exist. And they're trying new things recently. So there's always a chance.
At this point it seems like you're playing both sides of the field... then whichever side turns out to be right you'll suddenly be wearing their jersey and hugging their mascot and snacking on their special pistachio ice cream sundae like you were on their side all alone and shagging their "just hot enough" manager while their "just handsome enough" star batter gloats.... >.>
PS - NO shut up, I'm not making vague Major League references, you're just a bad person who's wrong all the time.
But I honestly doubt they will do any major shake ups in their f2p format, would be nice though if it meant there might be some focus put into the game from cryptic.
I wouldn't completely write it off. There was a time when freeform slots didn't even exist. And they're trying new things recently. So there's always a chance.
At this point it seems like you're playing both sides of the field... then whichever side turns out to be right you'll suddenly be wearing their jersey and hugging their mascot and snacking on their special pistachio ice cream sundae like you were on their side all alone and shagging their "just hot enough" manager while their "just handsome enough" star batter gloats.... >.>
PS - NO shut up, I'm not making vague Major League references, you're just a bad person who's wrong all the time.
If you'd actually take the time to bother reading my posts before accusing me of this and that, you may not have come to this conclusion. To be succinct, here are my two main points:
1. I think some sort of free freeform or "test drive" of freeform is a good idea because it might get people to spend more. These are my opinions and I don't claim them to be anything else.
2. I don't think any of us can definitively say one way or another what exactly is good for the game and what isn't because none of us have seen the analytics and none of us are clairvoyant, either. My opinions remain just that, and I don't pretend that they're more or less factual than any other person's opinions.
2a: The reason I brought this up is because some people were trying to use "logic" based on "their observations" as a basis for what's definitively good or bad for the game. I think it's a poor argument because it still lands in the area of opinion instead of fact. I won't be telling people that they're wrong for thinking free freeform is good or bad based on any "observations." I'll simply offer my opinion.
And that's it! Pretty simple, I think. And I also think this clearly and solidly shows which "side" I'm on, so if you want to quote me, take a screenshot, print it out and fax it to all your friends, go for it. If and when I'm wrong, you can laugh at me all you want; I promise I won't be sad.
And for the record, when freeform slots were first being discussed by the community, I was very opposed to them and my opinion was that it would never happen because I thought it would be detrimental to subscriptions.
Turns out I was wrong, and they did happen, though I won't claim to know that they brought the game more money or less. And when that happened, I wasn't hugging any mascots or whatever stupid references you're trying to make. I'm wrong a lot in many things and I'll gladly admit when I am. If my posts are in any way confusing to you or you think they contradict each other or that I'm playing both sides, then maybe you can have an adult walk you through them and explain what the words mean.
I found an interview from On alert with Rob Overmeyer(?) stating what big things they had planned. the small things were the custom alerts.
This was just before our devs were stripped and transplanted to help NW get going. We had a dead year. Then we got cryptic north a bit after that.
2. I don't think any of us can definitively say one way or another what exactly is good for the game and what isn't because none of us have seen the analytics and none of us are clairvoyant, either. My opinions remain just that, and I don't pretend that they're more or less factual than any other person's opinions.
And the sky is blue on a clear day, but the word "speculation" exists and isn't attached to criminal charges for a reason.
Also stop ignoring my Major League references u3u I know you're old enough that you watched it. Probably at least twice.
Yes, we're all speculating. Read again: what I was arguing against were people flat-out telling other people that their opinions were wrong because they believe their observations were as solid as the truth. Never said that their actual opinions or observations were wrong.
And no, I'm not familiar with Major League. I'm guessing it's a show because you keep capitalizing it.
And no, I'm not familiar with Major League. I'm guessing it's a show because you keep capitalizing it.
If it's what I'm thinking of, it's a movie, a minor "screwball" comedy from - what, the '80s? the '90s? - about a bunch of losers being hired by the Cleveland Indians because the owner wants them to lose big-time as a tax writeoff, only they go on to win some big championship, I think the World Series.
I'm a little vague on the details, but I remember enough of it that I have no intention of watching it again just to see what they were.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Comments
I am very much aware of why I cannot play my old character, though disappointed to see I couldn't apply the FF slot to him. Another point against buying that slot then even at a half off sale, I do not relish the idea of deleting and then grinding him back up to 30. Honestly, though that may not be how it works, it really should be.
I never said I should get stuff for free now that is currently a paid service because I used to play. I commented on the way things are currently set up creating a negative experience as a f2p player where I am a second class citizen and where the only way to climb out of such a position is an overpriced FF slot, or subbing, which kind of goes against the f2p thing. I have nothing against spending money mind you, and have spent more than my fair share in the past in f2p games, but I require there to be a sense of value in that exchange, one that I don't feel is currently present.
I commented on the way things are currently set up creating a negative experience as a f2p player where I am a second class citizen and where the only way to climb out of such a position is an overpriced FF slot
Now, here's the thing. I came to this game having played a few ARPGs, a little STO and Neverwinter, but no great depth of experience of character building and power choices. Some of the ATs I played were a great intro to the game (which is why I subscribed), but the appeal fell away as I realised how limited they were. Some of those ATs I have taken into every part of the game - and I mean full set of Justice Gear, Therakiel's Temple and all - and played without ever feeling second class. Sometimes the limitations of the toon are part of the fun... it means you have to think about mechanics, positioning, movement.... stuff that makes it feel as if success depends on the skill of the player, rather a nicely packaged set of specs and powers which guarantee success to all but the really inept. (I have those toons too, though. It's also fun to be a superman).
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I don't know why Cryptic still does that asinine shoving the sub in people's face nonsense. Yes, thank you, I know you want me to spend money but how about f-off and let me spend it if I choose to. Presenting the company as a bunch of greedy shits that want your money doesn't inspire consumer confidence. Treating customers like wallets with legs is a long time, industry wide problem.
If I hadn't been playing CO back in the day when F2P games didn't exists, I most likely would be irritated by the new player experience now, never bothering to give the game a second thought. Especially after playing something like Path of Exile which gives out 24 free character slots with no restrictions on how you make a character. Bonus, no cash shop being shoved in my face. If an indie studio can make it work, a large company with money to blow should as well.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Ah, there's the rub. Other games don't have this problem because they don't have such an open character creation system. Once again, it's easy to say something is bad when you're sitting on this side of things.
I won't disagree that it can put you off from wanting to play. My brother was a member for a long time, then his account lapsed, and since he didn't have the budget for it, went to play the game as free. The characters he'd played together with me were locked away, so he had to start a new one, and he only ended up playing for a small amount of time. It wasn't great.
Many Ex-P2P games give those who were paying before F2P a "Preferred Status" benefit while they are F2P. For Champions, this benefit could have been something as simple as "continue to play X# of your pre-existing FF characters, but all new characters much be ATs". Lets take a look at TOR when it went F2P, if you made a character who was not of one of the F2P races and then went F2P you could still play that character, no forced race change or anything, but all new characters had to be of F2P races. Previous subscribers also had their character slots expanded from 2 to 7... this is the Preferred Status system in action... giving prior subscribers a small fraction of their subscription benefits while they are between subscriptions.
Preferred Status does a lot for PR as well, while there will still be a number of benefits that are locked behind subscription or other pay walls, getting these small little extras for having subscribed is like being told "we want you as a subscriber, but we won't force it, enjoy this while you think it over" rather than "we want you as a subscriber, you can have this back when you reconsider"
Lets say CO implemented a Preferred Status benefit that gave you 2 extra Silver character slots, and you may continue to play any of your FF characters so long as you have Silver Character Slots for them. So a new player who subscribed for 1 month and never bought any extra character slots and never got any of the free bonus slots would be able to keep up to 4 of their FFs when their subscription lapses. If they later acquire another character slot they could either bring another pre-existing FF over to play or create an AT... if Preferred Status is added along with 1 Free FF slot for silvers, then if they haven't already used their 1 silver FF slot at this point, they could still create 1 FF while silver...
Aside from that, what makes you think it has been a success for CO? I am genuinely curious why you think the current model works when, again lapsed player and maybe I just haven't been hearing about all the CO news, in as far as I can tell CO hasn't exactly been doing great; especially when compared to its 'sister' title STO, which isn't as restrictive in its f2p offerings and has been getting a whole lot more support in terms of content expansions.
I also find it hard that ARC does not show Champions in their games list section but shows up if you search for it using the search bar. It could just be some coding issue in the site or something and I hope they aren't giving up on CO just like CoX.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Member of Paragon Dawn: Because some people like friendly helpful communities.
Yeah some things are broken... no I don't use/abuse them.. where would be the fun in that?
Age of Conan let me keep a character that became a pay for after the f2p transition.
Making it not suck to return to Champs would be just as great as making the new player experience not be full of sadness.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
The ATs (especially the free ones) are very boring to play. Most MMOs have classes, but they generally have more interesting gear options... you can chose your weapon, or use a bow, go 2-handed or sword an board. You get very little of that kind of flexibility with the ATs system. If you want new players to think this is a terrible, boring, rigid game, then ATs are the perfect tool.
On a related(?) note. The whole micro-transaction route is very poorly realized. Silvers can't recolor powers (for example)... not even for a purchased FF character. There is no way to even get a one-time recolor at the zen store. Gawd I really love those glaring purple-pink psi-powers!
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
This wont hurt Cryptics profits so whats the harm.
1. Its not like FF slots are bringing in heavy monthly income for Cryptic. That title goes to Lock Boxes...
2. Its more fun to play with other FFs
3. Free FF may attract more players who will buy more lock boxes.
4. Wildstar FTP lets you experience the entire game for free and only sells you cosmetics.
5. This game is OLD. If the game shuts down, it won't be because Silvers got Free FF slots.
6. Free FF slots is the biggest thing you can do to drum up interest next to going FTP or moving to consoles.
If the sale of FF slots isn't bringing in at least 10k a year than dump it, or at least put FF slots in lock boxes.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
I've played LOTRO a while back and remember that players playing for free were expected to pony up actual money to access a new zone for levelling up when they have reached a certain level criteria in the current zone that they're in. If they didn't want to pay up, they were forced to complete every unnecessary grindy complete X/X task available in the zone that had nothing to do with character progression just to get enough merit points as an alternative.
Oh and the zones and game world in general in LOTRO are huge, so owning a horse is crucial if you don't want to spend a huge chunk of your gameplay time travelling on foot that can take minutes or even a full hour. Guess what? Free players must pay real money to buy a Riding Skill from the store before they can actually start buying an ingame horse.
Compared to CO that lets a free player experience every ounce of content in the game without paying a single cent, I highly disagree nor expect that "every" other game out there is actually that generous by default with how they offer their "core" gameplay or content to free players.
That said, I'll address your point directly. Does the current model work and is it a success? Yes, the game keeps itself running. It is measurably more a success than it is a failure. It is factually doing better than other games that have shut down because they were not doing as well. Is there room to improve? Yeah, probably. Could some of these suggestions made by players affect the game in a way that it would make the game tank? Yeah, probably. Could go either way. I don't know.
When I look at many other p2p games that went f2p, many of them had a noticable uptick in content development following the conversion thanks to increased revenue. Dungeons & Dragons Online languished with content updates being few and far between, but following its conversion saw multiple expansions, regular content packs, new classes, new and updated systems.
Maybe that isn't a good example, I don't know, but I do not think that CO is an inherently bad game, and they do not seem to be getting much out of their current system. (That, or its funds are being redirected elsewhere which would be a whole different issue.) I would be keen to see it have the opportunity to flourish like some other f2p conversions have, which would be beneficial to the playerbase as a whole, and that won't happen under the current system. If it was going to, it would have by now. So seeing some of the long time players actively argue against the potential to do so based on they feel like they will be 'losing' what makes them special seems incredibly short sighted. (Not meaning you specifically Biff, just the earlier parts of this thread had a lot of it. Your first reply to me had a perceived tone to it that I initially assumed you were one of them.)
Anyway, having noticed the sale on FF slots, and the bonus points, I decided to grab one. I still think even $25 is too expensive, but I was bored and enjoying my time here on the forum talking about it, so figured what the hell.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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It could be more of a success, yes. Absolutely. But we know that they made decent decisions on how the game is run because it is at least running. I'd rather have that than them trying some crazy stuff and then having to shut down because of it. Were I in charge, though, I think I'd have tried something years ago instead of letting it just sit.
Expansions are varied in price, ranging from $25 up to $50 if you get the larger bundles. (There have been 2, both came after f2p and before then new content was scarce.)
To bring it back to thread topic, you might consider the customization options available to a DDO character as compared to a freeform character. DDO actually has something similar to AT's called a Path. Each class has 3 paths that basically guide a character along a single pre-determined route, each path having its own focus.
A cleric for instance might be a battle cleric that mixes in some melee combat with spells, or could be an offensive caster cleric using divine spells for damage, or just your standard healer. If you are new and want to be a cleric you could pick one of these paths and be fairly 'safe' from making build mistakes. Far from optimal, but there you have it.
Now, unlike CO these are not the only option for f2p, you can choose to not take a path, and build a cleric how you like, and it does not cost 50 dollars per slot to do it. Maybe you want to multiclass and be a monk/cleric hybrid, or take a couple of levels of paladin. Then you have feat choices which number in the dozens every few levels, and the enhancement trees which vary based on the classes you have, and all of that is without getting into epic destinies which further allow for customization options.
The best comparison would be to imagine if CO instead allowed most of the core powersets to be freely used, then actively developed new unique power sets and sold them separately as a one time account/slot wide purchase (ranging from $10-$15, not $50, keep it low enough to be an impulse buy). Archetypes could remain as a free option for people learning, but a player could at anytime choose to leave the Archetype and start making their own choices. Instead of selling FF slots they could instead focus on new cosmetic items, new content in the form of mission packs or powersets.
But I honestly doubt they will do any major shake ups in their f2p format, would be nice though if it meant there might be some focus put into the game from cryptic.
While Perfect World's policy is fair, the damage to Champs was done before Cryptic was bought out and is now suffering the consequences of the handling under Atari.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Making new content. Actual new content is a better way to get players new and old to come and play the game.
The game was close to the state it's in now, they released alerts, and there was a resurgence of players. We haven't had new content since 2012, so it's about time.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
At least not that I can remember.
Give players the ability to turn their character into a FF for free once per account once they reach say, level 15 or 20.
1: Players who just got in won't be overwhelmed by the FF system and pick badly/screw up.
2: Harder to "Game the system" since there's a time invested requirement.
3: This one's a bit underhanded, but the major improvement in power a good FF could be for a player could be an incentive to sub or buy another one. The First shot's free and you FEEL the impact rather than just getting it.
4: Does it hide FF behind a paywall, makes game more welcoming to newbies.
5: Still makes paying the best option.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
In short: You want F2P players even if they don't pay, because they're practically the best NPC AI you can think of, You'd rather have another player by your side than say, that idiot AI who just pulled half the map, they're often funnier and more spontaneous, and it fleshes out your game and makes it feel alive, and sure, Paying players ALSO do that, but more is always more in this case. Unless you're a hypercrowded game like World of Warcraft, more people out and about on the gameworld gives a better "Feel" than an abandoned ghost town, at the same time, the paying players have shinies that clearly are fun and neat to use like being able to sizeshift, or while you fly around like some superpowered peasant, they sit back and relax on their hovertank, or have this giant glow around them, it doesn't really cause "Envy" as much since it has minimal effect on power, but more like "Hey cool, I really want that, maybe it is worth the cost" turning paying players into walk ads the non-paying ones WANT to be near just as much as other non-paying players. The payment shouldn't feel forced, and it shouldn't be something that takes away from the challenge. While CO doesn't do the latter, it occasionally indulges the former, but only slightly in terms of FF being more powerful than archetypes. Note that this isn't NEARLY as big as most games have it, but it still "Stings" a bit. Make more items like Tf2's Diamond ring, less like Eve online's stupid monocle, make it feel like you're doing something nice, or making a global scream over the game like the biggest bad joke ever (THE UNITED STATES ACCEPTED MEXICOS IMMIGRANTS, for example is something I actually saw once) Make things like Dota 2's hero items, not League's "Pay to get this FOTM Champion". etc etc
Even more TLDR: Players are uber-advanced NPCs for MMOs, Don't be too oppressive when monetizing, players who don't pay aren't bad for the game, give players a fair shake at getting things by investing time as well.
At least I hope so.
PS - NO shut up, I'm not making vague Major League references, you're just a bad person who's wrong all the time.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
1. I think some sort of free freeform or "test drive" of freeform is a good idea because it might get people to spend more. These are my opinions and I don't claim them to be anything else.
2. I don't think any of us can definitively say one way or another what exactly is good for the game and what isn't because none of us have seen the analytics and none of us are clairvoyant, either. My opinions remain just that, and I don't pretend that they're more or less factual than any other person's opinions.
2a: The reason I brought this up is because some people were trying to use "logic" based
on "their observations" as a basis for what's definitively good or bad for the game. I
think it's a poor argument because it still lands in the area of opinion instead of fact.
I won't be telling people that they're wrong for thinking free freeform is good or bad
based on any "observations." I'll simply offer my opinion.
And that's it! Pretty simple, I think. And I also think this clearly and solidly shows which "side" I'm on, so if you want to quote me, take a screenshot, print it out and fax it to all your friends, go for it. If and when I'm wrong, you can laugh at me all you want; I promise I won't be sad.
And for the record, when freeform slots were first being discussed by the community, I was very opposed to them and my opinion was that it would never happen because I thought it would be detrimental to subscriptions.
Turns out I was wrong, and they did happen, though I won't claim to know that they brought the game more money or less. And when that happened, I wasn't hugging any mascots or whatever stupid references you're trying to make. I'm wrong a lot in many things and I'll gladly admit when I am. If my posts are in any way confusing to you or you think they contradict each other or that I'm playing both sides, then maybe you can have an adult walk you through them and explain what the words mean.
This was just before our devs were stripped and transplanted to help NW get going. We had a dead year. Then we got cryptic north a bit after that.
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Also stop ignoring my Major League references u3u I know you're old enough that you watched it. Probably at least twice.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
And no, I'm not familiar with Major League. I'm guessing it's a show because you keep capitalizing it.
I'm a little vague on the details, but I remember enough of it that I have no intention of watching it again just to see what they were.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I think I saw it exactly probably at least twice.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
(The joke is I'm canadian).