Actually it is. Even if you have 1 of each power forms power set the people would still have the ability to create a character that is viable as any freeform. If they want additional power sets well they can buy those. It's the carrot on the stick. Saying it wouldn't be better than Archetypes seems to be humongous misnomer.
I said not too much better. It's better, yes, but it's closer to an Archetype than it is to Freeform. Freeform lets you choose anything you want. Anything less than that, and it's not exactly freeform anymore.
Actually it is. Even if you have 1 of each power forms power set the people would still have the ability to create a character that is viable as any freeform. If they want additional power sets well they can buy those. It's the carrot on the stick. Saying it wouldn't be better than Archetypes seems to be humongous misnomer.
I said not too much better. It's better, yes, but it's closer to an Archetype than it is to Freeform. Freeform lets you choose anything you want. Anything less than that, and it's not exactly freeform anymore.
How? Having 6 power sets as I original described, that allows you to build form them and you buy additional power sets, versus freeform that doesn't let you do any of that stuff. You're really trying to stretch the comparison at this point. Also since Archetypes have 3 less powers than freeform, if I recall.
... but I'm willing to bet that there are people at Cryptic/PWE that know a whole lot more than us about the financial dealings of this game, and they're probably a better judge of what's good for the game than any of us do.
The game industry is full of grossly incompetent leadership. We're talking about an industry that blatantly practices age / sex / race discrimination, has appalling work/life balance, and all sorts of other issues. Things that actively drive talented people out of the industry. Talented people make higher quality games. Those games are far more likely to make money. So, no, they aren't necessarily a good judge of anything. I will give you that Perfect World tends to have good foresight.
>On the other hand, Freeform is very open. So open that I think it might end up damaging the game if it were freely available right from the get-go.<
I think people are tired of always being coddled. Especially the type of people that would love FreeForm. The popularity of games like Dark Souls or Path of Exile shows there is a large market of people that love going wild with flexible character even with limited direction. And even with re-rolling being the only option after screwing up a character.
Why not for maybe one month all silver accounts are temporarily made gold so that silver players get to experience *everything* a subscription offers (let's toss in that Zen stipend as well for good measure). Then at the end of the month, any account that isn't subscribed or LTS gets reverted back to silver.
Noooo! I don't want my account screwed up by the gold-to-silver mess. That's a terrible way to introduce players to CO.
>Why limited freeform would be the best.<
So, your idea is contingent upon all of the powers getting balanced and sets being fleshed out? Which would probably take years. I don't see how this is the best idea. Giving everyone a single FF slot is something that can be done now.
How? Having 6 power sets as I original described, that allows you to build form them and you buy additional power sets, versus freeform that doesn't let you do any of that stuff. You're really trying to stretch the comparison at this point. Also since Archetypes have 3 less powers than freeform, if I recall.
No, I'm not trying to stretch anything. I must have missed the part where you said six powersets. But still, I think there are better ways to show people what freeform can do than showing them just part of what freeform can do.
Again, I'm all for these kinds of ideas. Piecemeal freeform is great, but you want people to make an informed decision. I still think that a test drive is the way to go, and there's nothing saying that that's the only way to go. Letting people play around for free to get to know how it all works, and test any powerset they want, as well as getting a limited freeform? Much better than just giving a limited freeform with some powersets you might not be into. If the proposed six powersets came in the form of tokens used to buy whatever set you want? Even better. I'm all for it. But trying to get people to experience freeform so you can make some sales by giving them a gimpy version of it? I think there are better ways.
The game industry is full of grossly incompetent leadership. We're talking about an industry that blatantly practices age / sex / race discrimination, has appalling work/life balance, and all sorts of other issues. Things that actively drive talented people out of the industry. Talented people make higher quality games. Those games are far more likely to make money. So, no, they aren't necessarily a good judge of anything. I will give you that Perfect World tends to have good foresight.
Sure, but let's not lump all developers into a single category. I happened to work at a game developer who was very successful and treated its employees extremely well.
Regardless, though, having the numbers will probably almost always allow you to make a better decision than not having them, because at least you're not just shooting in the dark.
Eh, personally I'd like like to be able to buy the Freeform Slots for others via a gifting system or allow it to become a token that can be traded to others rather than make it free for everyone. At least then it's still getting paid for and people have another option with which to be generous with. With a subscription, I'm covered on character slots so long as I have a game to play, but if I had the option to give that to someone else... Yeah, I'd like to do that.
I can only imagine how much a 50 dollar item would go for on the auction house n_n
Eh, personally I'd like like to be able to buy the Freeform Slots for others via a gifting system or allow it to become a token that can be traded to others rather than make it free for everyone. At least then it's still getting paid for and people have another option with which to be generous with. With a subscription, I'm covered on character slots so long as I have a game to play, but if I had the option to give that to someone else... Yeah, I'd like to do that.
And how exactly do you turn that into an advertisement that makes a new player want to try the game? Telling someone they can eventually buy something for a huge price on the in game auction isn't exactly a tempting offer.
Eh, personally I'd like like to be able to buy the Freeform Slots for others via a gifting system or allow it to become a token that can be traded to others rather than make it free for everyone. At least then it's still getting paid for and people have another option with which to be generous with. With a subscription, I'm covered on character slots so long as I have a game to play, but if I had the option to give that to someone else... Yeah, I'd like to do that.
And how exactly do you turn that into an advertisement that makes a new player want to try the game? Telling someone they can eventually buy something for a huge price on the in game auction isn't exactly a tempting offer.
And there's not exactly a large number of people who would buy one to just give to a random stranger that may or may not stick around.
Eh, personally I'd like like to be able to buy the Freeform Slots for others via a gifting system or allow it to become a token that can be traded to others rather than make it free for everyone. At least then it's still getting paid for and people have another option with which to be generous with. With a subscription, I'm covered on character slots so long as I have a game to play, but if I had the option to give that to someone else... Yeah, I'd like to do that.
And how exactly do you turn that into an advertisement that makes a new player want to try the game? Telling someone they can eventually buy something for a huge price on the in game auction isn't exactly a tempting offer.
And there's not exactly a large number of people who would buy one to just give to a random stranger that may or may not stick around.
A random stranger? No, that's not very likely. Someone you know IRL? That's much more likely. I'm not opposed to the idea of being able to gift a FF slot, I might even do it myself. That said, they still would need something that they could advertise to attract people to the game. They can't simply rely on their smallish playerbase to be willing to buy all of their friends FF slots to get them to try the game.
Eh, personally I'd like like to be able to buy the Freeform Slots for others via a gifting system or allow it to become a token that can be traded to others rather than make it free for everyone. At least then it's still getting paid for and people have another option with which to be generous with. With a subscription, I'm covered on character slots so long as I have a game to play, but if I had the option to give that to someone else... Yeah, I'd like to do that.
And how exactly do you turn that into an advertisement that makes a new player want to try the game? Telling someone they can eventually buy something for a huge price on the in game auction isn't exactly a tempting offer.
And there's not exactly a large number of people who would buy one to just give to a random stranger that may or may not stick around.
A random stranger? No, that's not very likely. Someone you know IRL? That's much more likely. I'm not opposed to the idea of being able to gift a FF slot, I might even do it myself. That said, they still would need something that they could advertise to attract people to the game. They can't simply rely on their smallish playerbase to be willing to buy all of their friends FF slots to get them to try the game.
Yeah. Anyone who's not going to buy one for themselves is even less likely to buy one for someone else.
I think people are trying to overcomplicate this too much. To be honest I'm not sure why... not everything needs some big wacky system propped up around it. Just give everyone 1 freeform slot for free. Simple, does what the intent is to do, no extra programming time.
Also to anyone in the "that's never going to happen" camp... they did give away free vehicles today. I got 12 of them uwu #FREEHAPPENS.
Eh, personally I'd like like to be able to buy the Freeform Slots for others via a gifting system or allow it to become a token that can be traded to others rather than make it free for everyone. At least then it's still getting paid for and people have another option with which to be generous with. With a subscription, I'm covered on character slots so long as I have a game to play, but if I had the option to give that to someone else... Yeah, I'd like to do that.
And how exactly do you turn that into an advertisement that makes a new player want to try the game? Telling someone they can eventually buy something for a huge price on the in game auction isn't exactly a tempting offer.
And there's not exactly a large number of people who would buy one to just give to a random stranger that may or may not stick around.
A random stranger? No, that's not very likely. Someone you know IRL? That's much more likely. I'm not opposed to the idea of being able to gift a FF slot, I might even do it myself. That said, they still would need something that they could advertise to attract people to the game. They can't simply rely on their smallish playerbase to be willing to buy all of their friends FF slots to get them to try the game.
Yeah. Anyone who's not going to buy one for themselves is even less likely to buy one for someone else.
I think people are trying to overcomplicate this too much. To be honest I'm not sure why... not everything needs some big wacky system propped up around it. Just give everyone 1 freeform slot for free. Simple, does what the intent is to do, no extra programming time.
Also to anyone in the "that's never going to happen" camp... they did give away free vehicles today. I got 12 of them uwu #FREEHAPPENS.
A vehicle doesn't cost $50 bucks in game, and once this event is over it's gone. However, a freeform slot with an account means a personly only has to create new accounts to get a new freeform slot.
However, a freeform slot with an account means a personly only has to create new accounts to get a new freeform slot.
Yes, yes; that same issue has been raised numerous times in this thread. And the response is still the same:
A: the same this is true of character slots; you can create unlimited free accounts and never have to buy a character slot. And yet, they still sell character slots, meaning this is obviously not a big issue.
B: there is a built-in incentive to play a single account: account unlocks. When you create a new account, you lose every single thing you have bought or unlocked on a different account.
C: even if someone does create multiple accounts, they are still likely to wind up wanting to buy something on more than one of them, whether it is a costume, more inventory, or anything else.
While there will always be some who try their hardest to exploit any system, when you combine all 3 of the things mentioned above, it isn't going to be the norm.
Account unlocks are relatively cheap, compared to a $50 dollar price tag freeform has. So your entire argument about account unlocks is kind of torpedoed at that point. As people will decide that paying say, 5 to 10 bucks for a costume they want (or a few global on the AH) versus dropping $50 dollars every time they want a new freeform character. Guess which people will choose if the costume is even an issue.
Account unlocks are relatively cheap, compared to a $50 dollar price tag freeform has. So your entire argument about account unlocks is kind of torpedoed at that point. As people will decide that paying say, 5 to 10 bucks for a costume they want (or a few global on the AH) versus dropping $50 dollars every time they want a new freeform character. Guess which people will choose if the costume is even an issue.
So your points are torpedoed.
LOL, no. And the reason is because you forget the most important part: new people spending money who weren't here before. It's like this:
Champs advertises a free FF slot and gets 1,000 new people to try the game. 500 of them try the game, but leave without ever spending anything. 400 of them try the game, and stick around without ever spending anything. 100 of them try the game, and stick around, and buy various things they want.
The 500 that left weren't here to begin with, so Cryptic loses nothing with them. The 400 that stick around but don't spend weren't here to begin with, so Cryptic loses nothing with them. Plus, they help the queues pop faster, and enhance the experience of the paying customers. The part that actually matters is there are 100 new people spending money who weren't here before. Now, let's get back to the FF cheaters.
Some of those new 100 spenders may decide to cheat the system and create multiple accounts, like you mentioned. But guess what? They are still playing the game and spending money, neither of which they were doing before. That means regardless of them cheating the system, Cryptic is still making money on these people that weren't here before, and weren't buying FF slots to begin with.
And all those numbers I just mentioned are probably much smaller than what would actually happen. A more realistic example would be to multiply them all by 10. Either way, the big picture end result of the whole thing is that Cryptic winds up making more money from all of the various little sells from new players than they were selling FF slots to the limited audience currently playing the game.
I mean, you are basically arguing against the entire philosophy of all F2P games. The companies finally discovered that you make more money from 5 million people playing without a sub but buying all kinds of various randoms than you do with 50k subs each month. And of course, some people actually do both, which is a double-win.
Account unlocks are relatively cheap, compared to a $50 dollar price tag freeform has. So your entire argument about account unlocks is kind of torpedoed at that point. As people will decide that paying say, 5 to 10 bucks for a costume they want (or a few global on the AH) versus dropping $50 dollars every time they want a new freeform character. Guess which people will choose if the costume is even an issue.
So your points are torpedoed.
Which option will choose? Option C) $15/mo subscription... no seriously... most people are loathe to buy something they already own. And when faced with the choice of $10-$20 for their costumes again on a new account or $50 for a new FF slot on the same account, people will look for the most convenient option... in this case the most convenient option is to just subscribe. And I'm willing to bed more people would rather pay $15/mo than to buy all their costumes again or buy a single $50 FF slot especially when presented with the larger list of benefits.
I did the math before and you have to subscribe for over 3 years for the cost of the subscription to catch up to the total value of it's benefits. And by that time you may as well have just bought an LTS and saved yourself some money.
Sure there will be people who make new accounts and just buy new costumes for those new accounts, but they will be few and far between, much like the nearly non-existent portion of the community today that makes a new account every time they want to make a new character. Sure, it might be more likely to occur with FF than it currently is with AT due to having more options for how to build your character... but it really wouldn't be as big of an issue as you make it out to be. If they spend money, they spend money, it doesn't matter if it's spent across a dozen accounts or just 1... if they stick around, they stick around, again it doesn't matter if they play just 1 account or a dozen. Either way they are contributing to the growth of the player base and/or spending money on the game. Both are good outcomes.
It would be cool if they gave out a free freeform slot on special occasions. Like say, Christmas. For three days, if you log in, you get a free freeform. If you miss it, wait til next time. Would probably bring in some people.
I already answered your question back on the first page. And people won't choose 15 bucks a month because people are hardwired to believing pay as they go is the better option to get what they want. Try and you might to make sense of it. You want to entice people with honey, not cyanide laced vinegar. And you also want to justify to the bean counters the cost of making new power sets, because that will be an inevitable cry.
$50 is a lot harder to spend than $5 or $10. A FF slot is a good way to get people playing the game, which is the first step in having someone spend money. It's very unlikely someone not playing the game will spend money on it.
A vehicle doesn't cost $50 bucks in game, and once this event is over it's gone. However, a freeform slot with an account means a personly only has to create new accounts to get a new freeform slot.
Did someone say a vehicle costs 50 bucks? Cause I don't see that post anywhere.
PS - what makes you so sure this thing is temporary? There was nothing in the quest or on the vehicle itself to indicate that. Seems like a leap to make that claim...
A vehicle doesn't cost $50 bucks in game, and once this event is over it's gone. However, a freeform slot with an account means a personly only has to create new accounts to get a new freeform slot.
Did someone say a vehicle costs 50 bucks? Cause I don't see that post anywhere.
PS - what makes you so sure this thing is temporary? There was nothing in the quest or on the vehicle itself to indicate that. Seems like a leap to make that claim...
at 12 bucks a pop, I got 144$ worth of vehicle
Probably because the announcement said it's a limited time thing as you can read here. And if you need it, well here it is spelled out for you;
Player who login in during the Anniversary event will also be able to earn a free Anniversary Gift Pack from a contact in Ren Center and two new Perks to continue the anniversary festivities. The Anniversary Gift Pack will include:
Wasp Grav Bike
Defender 2015 Action Figure
Serpent Armor Costume
Redeemed Villain Costume
Free Costume Change Token
Furthermore, that Wasp is a tier 1 bike so people will have to pay to get it upgraded to a tier 2, not to mention getting all the items that are involved with it. On the flip side, a freeform slot is $50 dollars or 5000 zen.
A vehicle doesn't cost $50 bucks in game, and once this event is over it's gone. However, a freeform slot with an account means a personly only has to create new accounts to get a new freeform slot.
Did someone say a vehicle costs 50 bucks? Cause I don't see that post anywhere.
PS - what makes you so sure this thing is temporary? There was nothing in the quest or on the vehicle itself to indicate that. Seems like a leap to make that claim...
at 12 bucks a pop, I got 144$ worth of vehicle
Probably because the announcement said it's a limited time thing as you can read here. And if you need it, well here it is spelled out for you;
Player who login in during the Anniversary event will also be able to earn a free Anniversary Gift Pack from a contact in Ren Center and two new Perks to continue the anniversary festivities. The Anniversary Gift Pack will include:
Wasp Grav Bike
Defender 2015 Action Figure
Serpent Armor Costume
Redeemed Villain Costume
Free Costume Change Token
Furthermore, that Wasp is a tier 1 bike so people will have to pay to get it upgraded to a tier 2, not to mention getting all the items that are involved with it. On the flip side, a freeform slot is $50 dollars or 5000 zen.
Nothing on that page says that the bike is temporary. I stand by what I said: They gave away a thing for free #FREEHAPPENS
After one hero collected it and used it to get the AF, all the other heroes collected it as well, but they already have the AF because the first guy collected it, so the other heroes should just sell there new AF, right?
Just give everybody Freeform. You'll find the most successful games right now basicly give people the full game, and then have you pay for stuff thats just cosmetic.
If they like a game theyre playing, they will be more than happy to give some money for cosmetics. If the game experience is held back or sucks...well, the game-graveyard is right over there.
TF2 and Warframe run a similar and very enriching business model which CO could very easily convert to.
The most customization in the world, apart from Second Life, is on Champions Online...and you decide NOT to use that business model? Either somebody is just a terrible marketing employee or just straight out mad. Why WOULDNT you use that business model? People in CO go crazy for new costume parts.
There's a lot of money to be made here, will you squander your opportunity Cryptic?
I think they don't want to risk their small. but stable income from CO. I would much prefer if we would pay for cosmetics only (while gold and lts should get everything free). Then they could make tons of new costumes and hairstyles which I'm sure would sell well. but hey, sadly it's finally their decision, even if we all disagree with it.
I never said the bike won't last I said that the give away is temporary. IE it won't be here after the anniversary.
I'm not sure why you're pointing that out though. It doesn't matter that they're giving the thing away as part of the event... what matters is that they gave away something for free, because that's what I pointed out. How does it being temporary, or it's value in the Z-Store, or anything else about it have any relevance to:
I think they don't want to risk their small. but stable income from CO. I would much prefer if we would pay for cosmetics only (while gold and lts should get everything free). Then they could make tons of new costumes and hairstyles which I'm sure would sell well.
I wish Trail Turtle would come on and give us a definitive statement on whether Freeform Slots actually make them good money, the way he did with Lockboxes. It'd sure blow a lot of people's minds to find out that the CO population isn't as "cheap" as they think it is.
I'm not sure why you're pointing that out though. It doesn't matter that they're giving the thing away as part of the event... what matters is that they gave away something for free, because that's what I pointed out. How does it being temporary, or it's value in the Z-Store, or anything else about it have any relevance to:
Because there is a superior difference between a 12 dollar item and a 50 dollar item. You might have gotten 12 bikes for 12 different characters and that totals out to $144 bucks, or whatever, but they are still tier 1 and need upgrading.
But that doesn't compare to 12 $50 dollar items which would cost $600 bucks. That's a staggering difference of $456 dollars. In its current state that's money Cryptic can't really afford to toss away for Champions.
And to be blunt, it's fascinating to me how startling be some people have failed basic economics.
I'm not sure why you're pointing that out though. It doesn't matter that they're giving the thing away as part of the event... what matters is that they gave away something for free, because that's what I pointed out. How does it being temporary, or it's value in the Z-Store, or anything else about it have any relevance to:
Because there is a superior difference between a 12 dollar item and a 50 dollar item. You might have gotten 12 bikes for 12 different characters and that totals out to $144 bucks, or whatever, but they are still tier 1 and need upgrading. But that doesn't compare to 12 $50 dollar items which would cost $600 bucks. That's a staggering difference of $456 dollars. In its current state that's money Cryptic can't really afford to toss away for Champions. And to be blunt, it's fascinating to me how startling be some people have failed basic economics.
Yes, 50 is more than 12. Obvious statement is obvious. However, the entire philosophy of the F2P model is that you make more money in the long run by letting millions of people play for free and selling lots of little things than you do by having a much smaller playerbase that pays a sub every month. Likewise, a single free FF slot would attract many new people to this game(if properly advertised). Many of those new people will wind up buying various smaller things they want from the store. Yes, Cryptic will lose some sales of people who would have bought a FF slot, just like F2P games lose some sales of people who would have subscribed. But in the long run, they make more money from the small sales x more people, than the larger sales by less people.
And yes, I know, Champs is already F2P. However, as I have made the case in link below, I don't believe Champs F2P model is working, because Champs gameplay is fundamentally different than most F2P games:
To quickly summarize, for a game like TOR, the core element of gameplay(aka the main reason people play the game) is story, and you CAN play TOR's story for free. However for Champs, the core element of gameplay, IMO, is Freeform power customization, and you CAN'T experience that for free in Champs. That is still the barrier of entry that you have to pay to get past, just like the sub was for TOR before they went F2P. So in that sense, Champs has not really gone F2P, in comparison with TOR.
I agree with thegrandnagus, if you're not letting people try to most important part of the game for free, then it's not really f2p, but some sort of glorified demo version.
Because there is a superior difference between a 12 dollar item and a 50 dollar item. You might have gotten 12 bikes for 12 different characters and that totals out to $144 bucks, or whatever, but they are still tier 1 and need upgrading.
But that doesn't compare to 12 $50 dollar items which would cost $600 bucks. That's a staggering difference of $456 dollars. In its current state that's money Cryptic can't really afford to toss away for Champions.
And to be blunt, it's fascinating to me how startling be some people have failed basic economics.
But that's not economics, that's just algebra. Economics is the marginal cost of one free FF slot that attracts customers and encourages them to spend money on the game versus no free FF slots and the possibility that a potential customer is lost entirely and spends nothing.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Economics is what lead me to buy an LTS while it was on sale after having already spent over $300 on the game prior...
Sure it was cheaper in the immediate to pay $15/mo but having already spent over $300 on the game and most of that in subscription costs alone... the over-all value of $200 for an LTS outweighed it's high price tag. The same economics applies to the handful of people who will only ever buy a single FF slot (or think they will only ever buy one). However, from the players perspective it's a series of fixed values with 1 potentially unknown value (time). It's a lot easier to come to a solid conclusion that X > Y when you have a only 1 unknown. But when you move away from the player perspective into the developer's perspective your number of unknowns increases.
The unknowns for a developer are: Number of new players, Number of new buyers, Time, & What they will buy.
No one can say for certain regardless of any of the data collected what any of those values will be as a result of any change made. However, they can make some fairly accurate predictions based off known data from similar changes & current trends. Economics aren't an exact science, due to the nature of people even the most mathematically accurate prediction has the potential to be entirely wrong.
Lets look at my decision to buy an LTS to illustrate that for a second. My calculations came out saying that if I play for another 13 months my LTS will have paid for itself in subscription costs. If I play longer than that then it has succeeded in saving me money. If I were to quit after 1 month, then I would have misjudged my investment by ~$180...
However, when you move to a business standpoint, the differentials can be much more staggaring, and the potential income can very easily outweigh the risk by a huge margin. If hypothetically 1 out of every 100 players will only ever buy 1 FF slot, 5 out of every 100 will buy 2 or more, 1 out of every 300 will buy an LTS, 10 out of every 100 will pay subscription, and 50 out of every 100 buy other things off the shop... If the suggested change were to be made that would be a Risk of only $300 per 100 players (1:100 = $50 Risk; 5:100 = $250 Risk - Unknown Gain), that's pretty small when you think about it... The same change would have a projected Gain of $150/mo + $100 + $250X + Y. Since Time subscribed, quantity of FF beyond the first, and other purchases are unknown's we can't get an exact projection, however we can surmise from this a projected gain of at least $500 per 100 players... So that known if the change was projected to bring in 2000 new players we would be looking at a Risk of $6,000 vs a Gain of $10,000+.
Of course that's working with hypotheticals, since none of us have the actual values for any of that data available to us. So unless the data cryptic has gathered on those values show the risk to be much closer or exceeding the gain, this would be a profitable investment. And that is before calculating in the potential increase in spending from the pre-existing player base.
Having someone spend $5 or $10 is a lot better than spending nothing. Removing the barrier to enjoy the best part of the game, freeform, is a great way to get people spending money. Removing the subscription barrier to entry lead to the rise in gaming from countries with horrid exchange rates. I bet some of those people spend money when they never would have before. There is also a cultural aspect that isn't talked about. In some countries, people don't spend money on games if they can't try them first because they want to make sure the game isn't some PoS. They aren't going to drop $50+ on a FF slot just to see if a core part of the game is poo or not. They're going to move on to another game. Last I checked, f2p games were everywhere.
You know when I heard that Cryptic was going to give 1 FREE Character Slot to celebrate (?) the Ravenwood Tutorial, I was happy because I though that it would be a FreeForm Character Slot!
That would attract more attention to the game and more new members... but nope I was wrong... it was a simply boring Character Slot (which still attracted new members but...)
+1 From me, I support this idea, give everyone a FF slot. It will make players stick in the game longer and possible spend money on it (I KNOW I DID and still do)
After character costumization, The FreeForm system is the Bread and Butter of this game
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Nah. Freeform building makes no sense unless you've played at least one AT toon up to 40 or have invested a serious amount of time in learning the game (as the original pay-to-play people did). Better to give Silvers some of the currently paywalled Premium ATs and invent a couple of new paid-for trainer ATs - more control and explanation over stats, roles and powers, within a fixed collection of powers.
Nah. Freeform building makes no sense unless you've played at least one AT toon up to 40 or have invested a serious amount of time in learning the game (as the original pay-to-play people did). Better to give Silvers some of the currently paywalled Premium ATs and invent a couple of new paid-for trainer ATs - more control and explanation over stats, roles and powers, within a fixed collection of powers.
I beg to differ. Yea I played an inferno all the way up to 39 (note: subscribed and went FF before actually hitting lv40), but it was the worst experience I have ever had in this game. Every time my subscription lapsed and I was forced to play ATs for a month or two I found myself not enjoying the game at all. ATs were possibly the worst idea they could have had for the F2P model. Some of the newer ATs are closer to the play style of FFs due to LOTS of player feedback on them during their creation... however even they fail to capture the feeling that CO is supposed to give to new players.
Keep in mind, this is a SUPER HERO game. Locking people into static builds with no room for creativity in this game (2-3 A or B power choices will NEVER count for this) is like saying "You can be as creative as you want, so long as you only paint with 1 color."
What we need is to give everyone 1 FF slot, and put a simple tutorial up for new players. Give a basic over view of each stat, give tips and pointers on power selections... etc... and have this as something that can be accessed as much as needed via the powerhouse.
Nah. Freeform building makes no sense unless you've played at least one AT toon up to 40 or have invested a serious amount of time in learning the game
I beg to differ. Yea I played an inferno all the way up to 39 (note: subscribed and went FF before actually hitting lv40), but it was the worst experience I have ever had in this game.
The fact that you both have fundamentally different opinions on this issue is exactly why CHOICE is a good thing. The person who wants to mix and match their own powers can do so, and the person who wants a pre-defined path can have that as well. There is no right or wrong way, only the way each individual person prefers.
I would agree to the one free form slot for silvers, this gives players the chance to experience the core of the gameplay in Champions online. I used to play for a while CoX and I enjoyed the customization which is a bit similar to Champions.
The F2P model they used for Champions is not truly slicing the cake for most of us players because the cake is hidden inside a giant lockbox of a paywall. It would make sense for them to have all the AT's unlock at the beginning and not something you have to buy for nearly the same amount as a month subscription.
While selling pre-determined classes might seem like a good marketing idea, it leaves very little when it comes to PR. It just gives the impression that they are greedy which is really a bad first impression. The F2P model is hugely dependent on PR or rather first impressions.
I've known Champions since before it launched beta and I was one of those people who would buy the game and pay for it if I could (but being a kid at that time, I never really had the income). Then several months later they announced a free weekend event, I jumped in and decided to try it out only to find out my laptop can't run it (sucks to be me), then about a year or so there was an announcement that they will be going F2P, I was excited and then... *Drum Rolls* They announced Archetypes.
My excitement just died, If I wanted to play pre-determined classes there are fantasy MMO's out there which are F2P, the appeal which made me follow Champions was that it was made by the people who offered me a free lvl 15 locked trial of CoX and that it allowed you to play what you want, I really enjoyed CoX so much and it really left a lasting impression that I really didn't care that I would pay to subscribe just to play it because it is something which I wanted and I know this is the MMO I want.
I would disagree with most people here that say that there are those who will abuse the system and so-on and so-forth, in every tree there is always a bad fruit and we don't count them as sale or a loss sale. They aren't even going to buy it in the first place if they are just going to make 50 accounts to play around 50 FF builds.
Then lets look at the real lost sales, these are people who really just want to play this game badly and experience the feature firsthand or the core gameplay. They may not have the money now, but lets think long-term. What if that 15 year old kid who barely has enough money in their wallet to pay for a subscription but is willing to play the core gameplay albeit with limitations, then comes Birthday and Christmas where they receive money and decided to buy another FF slot and maybe a couple of costume sets. Then said kid was very happy with the game, enjoyed the people and the gameplay, after 5 years the kid now has a job and bought a lifetime subscription, introduced it positively to a colleague who also bought a gold subscription. Imagine putting a wall in front of that person's face saying pay up to enjoy the core game and that person then played other games, forgot Champions and enjoyed playing those games - Then that is a lost sale.
If you want subscribers, you have to gain loyalty from your customers and how can you build said loyalty if you put everything, even the core reason why Champions is unique (The customization) behind a paywall and replaced it with something similar to fixed classes we find on Fantasy MMO's and you also have to "BUY" to unlock an already locked content is just absurd. I am planning on saving up and buying a lifetime subscription and maybe buy an FF slot in the mean time. In my opinion they can get more money from Silvers not through unlocking AT's but through vanity items such as maybe a "One-Time Power Recolor Token" and also removing the Zen costumes at character select and making them "earnable" in the game just like what DCUO does instead of sticking that annoying coin icon in said costume, it just seems like they are greedy.
In my experience, customers and possible customers like it when they are treated like customers and not walking wallets. People at some point will buy but they just need a reason to buy, whether it is to support their favorite game, get the look they want, or maybe an enhance gaming experience. You don't have to shove it in their face every time that the cool things are behind the paywall, it makes people annoyed because you somehow challenge their inner psyche that they can't afford it at the moment and that it is the only thing they want from you.
I support Champion over its competition, the reason I played its competition in the first place was because of the AT and because people were comparing how they felt that they were being nickle-and-dimed in CO. I played both games and I rather sub to Champions because I am the kind of person who doesn't like to under the cape of another hero and here is hoping they get their act together, I hate to see a game I've been eager to try out since beta die out because the community just quit.
Sorry about the long post, I should start a blog or something but I would agree that they should offer a slice of the cake and give FF to silvers, you really can't count giving away an FF as a lost sale since this is a digital product and you can make more of it unlimited times, but lost sale would be those possible subscribers who gave up and didn't really felt like they were treated like customers.
So as a long lapsed player who decided to log back in and look around after reading a MassivelyOP article about it, I'll share some of my thoughts. Spoilered to not have a massive wall of text.
1:
Regarding everyone saying it is a terrible idea to give silvers a free form slot: Hows the current system working for you? CO is relegated to the back burner of PWE, when I considered buying some points and getting some stuff off the cash shop, it isn't even one of the 8 options it presents to you, you have to dig to even find CO on the list. (Maybe this changes if you are subbed to it?)
It doesn't get regular updates, and the only reason I was reminded of its existence was when an article commenting on how the anniversary came and went without an event (only for it to be later updated with the news of the belated event).
So... If what is currently being done isn't bringing in the crowds (Else you'd hear more about it), and it isn't bringing in major money (Else it would have more dev time/resources dedicated to it), maybe it is time for something new? Something that has to potential to attract new players who might then stick around and spend money in the game? It isn't likely to bring the game down, and it seems like CO from an outsiders perspective has a foot in the grave already.
2:
I logged back in, noted with annoyance my old character I played years ago was locked from me being able to log in as them. Instead I logged into the AT character who was level 11, which I had played after being curious about the f2p launch. I considered buying a FF slot to get my old main out of moth balls, and did a quick nooooope at seeing the price. CO does not live in a vacuum, you cannot pretend I do not have other, better, choices for my entertainment dollar. I could spend 50 bucks on a FF slot, or I could buy...
For 10 bucks more Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain, a current major video game release with online components and racking up high review scores. for 6 bucks less Elite: Dangerous, a space game that has gotten really good reviews. For 8 bucks less The Witcher 3: The Wild Hunt, a major release from earlier this year with amazing reviews. (Currently 30% off.) For 20 bucks less, the gods pack for Smite, giving me access to EVERY god (Think characters or classes if you are unfamiliar, there are dozens of them) now and and in the future in a free to play MOBA. For 20 bucks less The Secret World, a b2p MMO with free form skill based character advancement and no monthly subscription. For 50 bucks less Guild Wars 2, a b2p MMO that does not restrict its class choices to 'free' players.
My point being that the barrier to entry for a FF slot is insanely high compared to my other entertainment options, and though arguments can be made about the relative value of a FF character, and hours of enjoyments, etc, etc, I do not see it as a value, I cannot justify it in any way, especially knowing that if I did do it, and then got into playing him, I would want to then purchase other options, the price is too high.
3:
Maybe this is influenced by the fact I did play prior to f2p once, but I hate the AT's, There are too few customization options so I cannot really make the kind of hero I want, I feel like the price for unlocking others is also a bit high given my dislike of them, and I feel like they are sub par options compared to free form. I am playing a second class citizen unless I sub.
All of it basically to me is shoving the sub option in my face, and saying that if I really want to play I should sub.
EQ2 gave me the same feeling, when it went f2p I put in enough station cash to unlock the race I wanted to play (about 10 bucks as I recall) The only reason I did that was because I have an irrational love of Frogloks. I quit playing and invested no more money because I felt like the f2p restrictions were trying to force me to sub. I have not revisited it since.
DDO has similar cash shop options, races, classes, etc. Yet I never felt like the sub option was being forced on me, I have since it went f2p spent over $200 on that game and not regretted it. Probably would have been cheaper if I had just subbed as well, but it was the convenience factor that made it work for me. I didn't feel pressured and I could log in and play my main whether I was subbed or not, maybe I didn't have all the newest content when I did, but that was fine by me.
So, between the two, one obviously got a lot more of my money when I didn't feel pressured into it. Another game I've spent a fair amount in is The Secret World, which I got on sale for like 10 bucks, and invested a lot more into because I wanted to, not because I felt like I had to.
For what it is worth I will be remaining a lapsed player, don't feel like subbing again given the way things are set up, and despite messing around in the game as an AT, I just have no connection to this character and don't want to spend money on it since it will always feel limited, or second class.
I might return if they ever do a FF slot sale again, something around 20 bucks might tempt me, if only because I really liked my old character. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter and why CO won't be getting me as a customer, despite having a more than passing interest in the game and past investment. Saw enough people who were die hards in this thread, thought an outsiders perspective might be of interest.
Before you spend your $25 for a half-price FF slot and then subject us all to yet another rant, be warned - when you purchase any character slot, only a new character can go in there. If you purchase an FF slot, you can re-create your old toon - but you can't just slide him in there, that's not how character slots work.
Also, the reason you can't play your old toon is because you made him back when Gold was the only option. You were subbed at the time, or maybe got in on a free weekend - but the point is that you either paid to play him at the time, or would have had to, had you continued past the free time. Accordingly, if you want to play that Gold character now, you need Gold status. It's not a new thing; the only thing new for you here is the fact that Gold isn't the only thing going on these days. You can't get the stuff folks pay for for free now, just because you used to pay back in the day.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Comments
How? Having 6 power sets as I original described, that allows you to build form them and you buy additional power sets, versus freeform that doesn't let you do any of that stuff. You're really trying to stretch the comparison at this point. Also since Archetypes have 3 less powers than freeform, if I recall.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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>On the other hand, Freeform is very open. So open that I think it might end up damaging the game if it were freely available right from the get-go.<
I think people are tired of always being coddled. Especially the type of people that would love FreeForm. The popularity of games like Dark Souls or Path of Exile shows there is a large market of people that love going wild with flexible character even with limited direction. And even with re-rolling being the only option after screwing up a character. Noooo! I don't want my account screwed up by the gold-to-silver mess. That's a terrible way to introduce players to CO.
>Why limited freeform would be the best.<
So, your idea is contingent upon all of the powers getting balanced and sets being fleshed out? Which would probably take years. I don't see how this is the best idea. Giving everyone a single FF slot is something that can be done now.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Again, I'm all for these kinds of ideas. Piecemeal freeform is great, but you want people to make an informed decision. I still think that a test drive is the way to go, and there's nothing saying that that's the only way to go. Letting people play around for free to get to know how it all works, and test any powerset they want, as well as getting a limited freeform? Much better than just giving a limited freeform with some powersets you might not be into. If the proposed six powersets came in the form of tokens used to buy whatever set you want? Even better. I'm all for it. But trying to get people to experience freeform so you can make some sales by giving them a gimpy version of it? I think there are better ways. Sure, but let's not lump all developers into a single category. I happened to work at a game developer who was very successful and treated its employees extremely well.
Regardless, though, having the numbers will probably almost always allow you to make a better decision than not having them, because at least you're not just shooting in the dark.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I think people are trying to overcomplicate this too much. To be honest I'm not sure why... not everything needs some big wacky system propped up around it. Just give everyone 1 freeform slot for free. Simple, does what the intent is to do, no extra programming time.
Also to anyone in the "that's never going to happen" camp... they did give away free vehicles today. I got 12 of them uwu #FREEHAPPENS.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
A vehicle doesn't cost $50 bucks in game, and once this event is over it's gone. However, a freeform slot with an account means a personly only has to create new accounts to get a new freeform slot.
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A: the same this is true of character slots; you can create unlimited free accounts and never have to buy a character slot. And yet, they still sell character slots, meaning this is obviously not a big issue.
B: there is a built-in incentive to play a single account: account unlocks. When you create a new account, you lose every single thing you have bought or unlocked on a different account.
C: even if someone does create multiple accounts, they are still likely to wind up wanting to buy something on more than one of them, whether it is a costume, more inventory, or anything else.
While there will always be some who try their hardest to exploit any system, when you combine all 3 of the things mentioned above, it isn't going to be the norm.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
So your points are torpedoed.
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Champs advertises a free FF slot and gets 1,000 new people to try the game.
500 of them try the game, but leave without ever spending anything.
400 of them try the game, and stick around without ever spending anything.
100 of them try the game, and stick around, and buy various things they want.
The 500 that left weren't here to begin with, so Cryptic loses nothing with them. The 400 that stick around but don't spend weren't here to begin with, so Cryptic loses nothing with them. Plus, they help the queues pop faster, and enhance the experience of the paying customers. The part that actually matters is there are 100 new people spending money who weren't here before. Now, let's get back to the FF cheaters.
Some of those new 100 spenders may decide to cheat the system and create multiple accounts, like you mentioned. But guess what? They are still playing the game and spending money, neither of which they were doing before. That means regardless of them cheating the system, Cryptic is still making money on these people that weren't here before, and weren't buying FF slots to begin with.
And all those numbers I just mentioned are probably much smaller than what would actually happen. A more realistic example would be to multiply them all by 10. Either way, the big picture end result of the whole thing is that Cryptic winds up making more money from all of the various little sells from new players than they were selling FF slots to the limited audience currently playing the game.
I mean, you are basically arguing against the entire philosophy of all F2P games. The companies finally discovered that you make more money from 5 million people playing without a sub but buying all kinds of various randoms than you do with 50k subs each month. And of course, some people actually do both, which is a double-win.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Also, I don't see no Moderator title under my name, so there!
Like Goku.
HAW! *runs like heck*
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Grand_Nagus/092015/28730_Champions-Online-Why-Its-F2P-Model-Isnt-Working
Obviously, it has many of the same arguments I have made in this thread.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I did the math before and you have to subscribe for over 3 years for the cost of the subscription to catch up to the total value of it's benefits. And by that time you may as well have just bought an LTS and saved yourself some money.
Sure there will be people who make new accounts and just buy new costumes for those new accounts, but they will be few and far between, much like the nearly non-existent portion of the community today that makes a new account every time they want to make a new character. Sure, it might be more likely to occur with FF than it currently is with AT due to having more options for how to build your character... but it really wouldn't be as big of an issue as you make it out to be. If they spend money, they spend money, it doesn't matter if it's spent across a dozen accounts or just 1... if they stick around, they stick around, again it doesn't matter if they play just 1 account or a dozen. Either way they are contributing to the growth of the player base and/or spending money on the game. Both are good outcomes.
I already answered your question back on the first page. And people won't choose 15 bucks a month because people are hardwired to believing pay as they go is the better option to get what they want. Try and you might to make sense of it. You want to entice people with honey, not cyanide laced vinegar. And you also want to justify to the bean counters the cost of making new power sets, because that will be an inevitable cry.
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[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
And I'm drunk.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
PS - what makes you so sure this thing is temporary? There was nothing in the quest or on the vehicle itself to indicate that. Seems like a leap to make that claim...
at 12 bucks a pop, I got 144$ worth of vehicle
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Probably because the announcement said it's a limited time thing as you can read here. And if you need it, well here it is spelled out for you;
Player who login in during the Anniversary event will also be able to earn a free Anniversary Gift Pack from a contact in Ren Center and two new Perks to continue the anniversary festivities. The Anniversary Gift Pack will include:
Furthermore, that Wasp is a tier 1 bike so people will have to pay to get it upgraded to a tier 2, not to mention getting all the items that are involved with it. On the flip side, a freeform slot is $50 dollars or 5000 zen.
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Probably because the announcement said it's a limited time thing as you can read here. And if you need it, well here it is spelled out for you;
Player who login in during the Anniversary event will also be able to earn a free Anniversary Gift Pack from a contact in Ren Center and two new Perks to continue the anniversary festivities. The Anniversary Gift Pack will include:
Furthermore, that Wasp is a tier 1 bike so people will have to pay to get it upgraded to a tier 2, not to mention getting all the items that are involved with it. On the flip side, a freeform slot is $50 dollars or 5000 zen.
Nothing on that page says that the bike is temporary. I stand by what I said: They gave away a thing for free #FREEHAPPENS
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After one hero collected it and used it to get the AF, all the other heroes collected it as well, but they already have the AF because the first guy collected it, so the other heroes should just sell there new AF, right?
If they like a game theyre playing, they will be more than happy to give some money for cosmetics. If the game experience is held back or sucks...well, the game-graveyard is right over there.
TF2 and Warframe run a similar and very enriching business model which CO could very easily convert to.
The most customization in the world, apart from Second Life, is on Champions Online...and you decide NOT to use that business model? Either somebody is just a terrible marketing employee or just straight out mad. Why WOULDNT you use that business model? People in CO go crazy for new costume parts.
There's a lot of money to be made here, will you squander your opportunity Cryptic?
I would much prefer if we would pay for cosmetics only (while gold and lts should get everything free). Then they could make tons of new costumes and hairstyles which I'm sure would sell well.
but hey, sadly it's finally their decision, even if we all disagree with it.
Also the grab bag event where I got 3 FF slots. #FREEHAPPENS
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Because there is a superior difference between a 12 dollar item and a 50 dollar item. You might have gotten 12 bikes for 12 different characters and that totals out to $144 bucks, or whatever, but they are still tier 1 and need upgrading.
But that doesn't compare to 12 $50 dollar items which would cost $600 bucks. That's a staggering difference of $456 dollars. In its current state that's money Cryptic can't really afford to toss away for Champions.
And to be blunt, it's fascinating to me how startling be some people have failed basic economics.
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Yes, 50 is more than 12. Obvious statement is obvious. However, the entire philosophy of the F2P model is that you make more money in the long run by letting millions of people play for free and selling lots of little things than you do by having a much smaller playerbase that pays a sub every month. Likewise, a single free FF slot would attract many new people to this game(if properly advertised). Many of those new people will wind up buying various smaller things they want from the store. Yes, Cryptic will lose some sales of people who would have bought a FF slot, just like F2P games lose some sales of people who would have subscribed. But in the long run, they make more money from the small sales x more people, than the larger sales by less people.
And yes, I know, Champs is already F2P. However, as I have made the case in link below, I don't believe Champs F2P model is working, because Champs gameplay is fundamentally different than most F2P games:
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Grand_Nagus/092015/28730_Champions-Online-Why-Its-F2P-Model-Isnt-Working
To quickly summarize, for a game like TOR, the core element of gameplay(aka the main reason people play the game) is story, and you CAN play TOR's story for free. However for Champs, the core element of gameplay, IMO, is Freeform power customization, and you CAN'T experience that for free in Champs. That is still the barrier of entry that you have to pay to get past, just like the sub was for TOR before they went F2P. So in that sense, Champs has not really gone F2P, in comparison with TOR.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Sure it was cheaper in the immediate to pay $15/mo but having already spent over $300 on the game and most of that in subscription costs alone... the over-all value of $200 for an LTS outweighed it's high price tag. The same economics applies to the handful of people who will only ever buy a single FF slot (or think they will only ever buy one). However, from the players perspective it's a series of fixed values with 1 potentially unknown value (time). It's a lot easier to come to a solid conclusion that X > Y when you have a only 1 unknown. But when you move away from the player perspective into the developer's perspective your number of unknowns increases.
The unknowns for a developer are: Number of new players, Number of new buyers, Time, & What they will buy.
No one can say for certain regardless of any of the data collected what any of those values will be as a result of any change made. However, they can make some fairly accurate predictions based off known data from similar changes & current trends. Economics aren't an exact science, due to the nature of people even the most mathematically accurate prediction has the potential to be entirely wrong.
Lets look at my decision to buy an LTS to illustrate that for a second. My calculations came out saying that if I play for another 13 months my LTS will have paid for itself in subscription costs. If I play longer than that then it has succeeded in saving me money. If I were to quit after 1 month, then I would have misjudged my investment by ~$180...
However, when you move to a business standpoint, the differentials can be much more staggaring, and the potential income can very easily outweigh the risk by a huge margin. If hypothetically 1 out of every 100 players will only ever buy 1 FF slot, 5 out of every 100 will buy 2 or more, 1 out of every 300 will buy an LTS, 10 out of every 100 will pay subscription, and 50 out of every 100 buy other things off the shop... If the suggested change were to be made that would be a Risk of only $300 per 100 players (1:100 = $50 Risk; 5:100 = $250 Risk - Unknown Gain), that's pretty small when you think about it... The same change would have a projected Gain of $150/mo + $100 + $250X + Y. Since Time subscribed, quantity of FF beyond the first, and other purchases are unknown's we can't get an exact projection, however we can surmise from this a projected gain of at least $500 per 100 players... So that known if the change was projected to bring in 2000 new players we would be looking at a Risk of $6,000 vs a Gain of $10,000+.
Of course that's working with hypotheticals, since none of us have the actual values for any of that data available to us. So unless the data cryptic has gathered on those values show the risk to be much closer or exceeding the gain, this would be a profitable investment. And that is before calculating in the potential increase in spending from the pre-existing player base.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
That would attract more attention to the game and more new members... but nope I was wrong... it was a simply boring Character Slot (which still attracted new members but...)
+1 From me, I support this idea, give everyone a FF slot. It will make players stick in the game longer and possible spend money on it (I KNOW I DID and still do)
After character costumization, The FreeForm system is the Bread and Butter of this game
Keep in mind, this is a SUPER HERO game. Locking people into static builds with no room for creativity in this game (2-3 A or B power choices will NEVER count for this) is like saying "You can be as creative as you want, so long as you only paint with 1 color."
What we need is to give everyone 1 FF slot, and put a simple tutorial up for new players. Give a basic over view of each stat, give tips and pointers on power selections... etc... and have this as something that can be accessed as much as needed via the powerhouse.
The fact that you both have fundamentally different opinions on this issue is exactly why CHOICE is a good thing. The person who wants to mix and match their own powers can do so, and the person who wants a pre-defined path can have that as well. There is no right or wrong way, only the way each individual person prefers.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The F2P model they used for Champions is not truly slicing the cake for most of us players because the cake is hidden inside a giant lockbox of a paywall. It would make sense for them to have all the AT's unlock at the beginning and not something you have to buy for nearly the same amount as a month subscription.
While selling pre-determined classes might seem like a good marketing idea, it leaves very little when it comes to PR. It just gives the impression that they are greedy which is really a bad first impression. The F2P model is hugely dependent on PR or rather first impressions.
I've known Champions since before it launched beta and I was one of those people who would buy the game and pay for it if I could (but being a kid at that time, I never really had the income). Then several months later they announced a free weekend event, I jumped in and decided to try it out only to find out my laptop can't run it (sucks to be me), then about a year or so there was an announcement that they will be going F2P, I was excited and then... *Drum Rolls* They announced Archetypes.
My excitement just died, If I wanted to play pre-determined classes there are fantasy MMO's out there which are F2P, the appeal which made me follow Champions was that it was made by the people who offered me a free lvl 15 locked trial of CoX and that it allowed you to play what you want, I really enjoyed CoX so much and it really left a lasting impression that I really didn't care that I would pay to subscribe just to play it because it is something which I wanted and I know this is the MMO I want.
I would disagree with most people here that say that there are those who will abuse the system and so-on and so-forth, in every tree there is always a bad fruit and we don't count them as sale or a loss sale. They aren't even going to buy it in the first place if they are just going to make 50 accounts to play around 50 FF builds.
Then lets look at the real lost sales, these are people who really just want to play this game badly and experience the feature firsthand or the core gameplay. They may not have the money now, but lets think long-term. What if that 15 year old kid who barely has enough money in their wallet to pay for a subscription but is willing to play the core gameplay albeit with limitations, then comes Birthday and Christmas where they receive money and decided to buy another FF slot and maybe a couple of costume sets. Then said kid was very happy with the game, enjoyed the people and the gameplay, after 5 years the kid now has a job and bought a lifetime subscription, introduced it positively to a colleague who also bought a gold subscription. Imagine putting a wall in front of that person's face saying pay up to enjoy the core game and that person then played other games, forgot Champions and enjoyed playing those games - Then that is a lost sale.
If you want subscribers, you have to gain loyalty from your customers and how can you build said loyalty if you put everything, even the core reason why Champions is unique (The customization) behind a paywall and replaced it with something similar to fixed classes we find on Fantasy MMO's and you also have to "BUY" to unlock an already locked content is just absurd. I am planning on saving up and buying a lifetime subscription and maybe buy an FF slot in the mean time. In my opinion they can get more money from Silvers not through unlocking AT's but through vanity items such as maybe a "One-Time Power Recolor Token" and also removing the Zen costumes at character select and making them "earnable" in the game just like what DCUO does instead of sticking that annoying coin icon in said costume, it just seems like they are greedy.
In my experience, customers and possible customers like it when they are treated like customers and not walking wallets. People at some point will buy but they just need a reason to buy, whether it is to support their favorite game, get the look they want, or maybe an enhance gaming experience. You don't have to shove it in their face every time that the cool things are behind the paywall, it makes people annoyed because you somehow challenge their inner psyche that they can't afford it at the moment and that it is the only thing they want from you.
I support Champion over its competition, the reason I played its competition in the first place was because of the AT and because people were comparing how they felt that they were being nickle-and-dimed in CO. I played both games and I rather sub to Champions because I am the kind of person who doesn't like to under the cape of another hero and here is hoping they get their act together, I hate to see a game I've been eager to try out since beta die out because the community just quit.
Sorry about the long post, I should start a blog or something but I would agree that they should offer a slice of the cake and give FF to silvers, you really can't count giving away an FF as a lost sale since this is a digital product and you can make more of it unlimited times, but lost sale would be those possible subscribers who gave up and didn't really felt like they were treated like customers.
1:
It doesn't get regular updates, and the only reason I was reminded of its existence was when an article commenting on how the anniversary came and went without an event (only for it to be later updated with the news of the belated event).
So... If what is currently being done isn't bringing in the crowds (Else you'd hear more about it), and it isn't bringing in major money (Else it would have more dev time/resources dedicated to it), maybe it is time for something new? Something that has to potential to attract new players who might then stick around and spend money in the game? It isn't likely to bring the game down, and it seems like CO from an outsiders perspective has a foot in the grave already.
2:
For 10 bucks more Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain, a current major video game release with online components and racking up high review scores.
for 6 bucks less Elite: Dangerous, a space game that has gotten really good reviews.
For 8 bucks less The Witcher 3: The Wild Hunt, a major release from earlier this year with amazing reviews. (Currently 30% off.)
For 20 bucks less, the gods pack for Smite, giving me access to EVERY god (Think characters or classes if you are unfamiliar, there are dozens of them) now and and in the future in a free to play MOBA.
For 20 bucks less The Secret World, a b2p MMO with free form skill based character advancement and no monthly subscription.
For 50 bucks less Guild Wars 2, a b2p MMO that does not restrict its class choices to 'free' players.
My point being that the barrier to entry for a FF slot is insanely high compared to my other entertainment options, and though arguments can be made about the relative value of a FF character, and hours of enjoyments, etc, etc, I do not see it as a value, I cannot justify it in any way, especially knowing that if I did do it, and then got into playing him, I would want to then purchase other options, the price is too high.
3:
All of it basically to me is shoving the sub option in my face, and saying that if I really want to play I should sub.
EQ2 gave me the same feeling, when it went f2p I put in enough station cash to unlock the race I wanted to play (about 10 bucks as I recall) The only reason I did that was because I have an irrational love of Frogloks. I quit playing and invested no more money because I felt like the f2p restrictions were trying to force me to sub. I have not revisited it since.
DDO has similar cash shop options, races, classes, etc. Yet I never felt like the sub option was being forced on me, I have since it went f2p spent over $200 on that game and not regretted it. Probably would have been cheaper if I had just subbed as well, but it was the convenience factor that made it work for me. I didn't feel pressured and I could log in and play my main whether I was subbed or not, maybe I didn't have all the newest content when I did, but that was fine by me.
So, between the two, one obviously got a lot more of my money when I didn't feel pressured into it. Another game I've spent a fair amount in is The Secret World, which I got on sale for like 10 bucks, and invested a lot more into because I wanted to, not because I felt like I had to.
For what it is worth I will be remaining a lapsed player, don't feel like subbing again given the way things are set up, and despite messing around in the game as an AT, I just have no connection to this character and don't want to spend money on it since it will always feel limited, or second class.
I might return if they ever do a FF slot sale again, something around 20 bucks might tempt me, if only because I really liked my old character. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter and why CO won't be getting me as a customer, despite having a more than passing interest in the game and past investment. Saw enough people who were die hards in this thread, thought an outsiders perspective might be of interest.
Also, the reason you can't play your old toon is because you made him back when Gold was the only option. You were subbed at the time, or maybe got in on a free weekend - but the point is that you either paid to play him at the time, or would have had to, had you continued past the free time. Accordingly, if you want to play that Gold character now, you need Gold status. It's not a new thing; the only thing new for you here is the fact that Gold isn't the only thing going on these days. You can't get the stuff folks pay for for free now, just because you used to pay back in the day.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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