I don't agree with giving away the full product for free. A sample would be the way I could agree.
Fortunately, no one has suggested anything of the kind. The "full product" is what you get for subscribing, which includes X number of FF character slots(can't remember the number), plus 500 zen per month, plus lots of costume parts, more inventory space, etc, etc. No one has suggested giving away all of that for free, only a single FF slot.
There seems to be a lot of underestimating the power of free. [Snipit] I can only imagine that's similar to the new silver player experience. Just seeing all those amazing FF build is a constant reminder of the cash shop. It's not spending money because someone is having fun, it's spending money because the ATs feel gimpy.
If a new player has one FF slot from the start, seeing those FF builds is "hey, I could do that too" instead of "I have to spend money to have a toon that doesn't suck".
I remember when I first started playing and was leveling an Inferno AT it would annoy me to no end that I just simply couldn't keep up with FF players. In fact, for a long time I didn't have a clue what people meant when they said they were "FF" when they were asked what AT they were playing. I felt like I was playing an inferior and severely gimped version of the game while I was a silver player. It wasn't until I got into an SG and was able to talk with some people who communicated in more than just acronyms that I found out "FF" stood for "Freeform" or even that Champions even had Freeform... Up until that point I just thought Silver had a power limit, and Gold had extra optional skills along with more ATs... Honestly I didn't really want to pay a subscription to try out FF, but for me $15/mo wasn't all that big of a deal, and the $50 FF Slot was little more than a pipe-dream on the forums at that time... Honestly I was ready to quit CO before I got into that SG and learned more about the game. And without FF I certainly wouldn't still be playing today nor would I have ever spent $200 on an LTS or payed $240 worth of Monthly subs and bought another $160+ worth of stuff from the cash shop...
Freeform is the ONLY reason I've spent over $600 on this game, and the only reason I still play today. If I had access to just 1 FF slot from day 1, I would have never thought of quitting, and would have spent money sooner than I did, and likely by now would have spent close to, if not over, $1000 on CO.
I'll admit, my view on this topic is heavily biased by my own personal experience. But, honestly I don't think that bias is necessarily a bad thing given the topic.
We don't use a crystal ball, we use plain old rationality. We actually can say that someone who gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't spend any further money was never going to do so anyway, because they didn't spend any money; we base our assumption on what they did, rather than all the other things they could have done but didn't. They had plenty of opportunity to buy something, and the only time a z-store item ever came into their possession was the time they got one for free. All signs point to the assumption being correct. That's how you do these things when you don't own a crystal ball.
Are you guys leaving out the people who would have spent money but instead didn't because they got what they wanted for free on purpose, or are you just not thinking that it's a possibility? You're basically saying that no one's ever just bought a Freeform slot and left it at that. That's a form of loss.
No, I acknowledge that if someone was going to buy 1 FF slot tomorrow, and Champs announced today that everyone gets 1 FF slot, that person would probably not buy the 1 FF slot tomorrow. I say "probably" because they might just decide that since they had already decided to spend the money, they might like to have 2 FF characters instead of just one. But, even if that person doesn't do that, they might decide to just spend the money on something else. Maybe a couple of vehicles they want, maybe something else.
Or, maybe they won't buy anything at all. Maybe, for that specific person, Cryptic lost what could have been a sale. I acknowledge that possibility. But here comes the good part: I still maintain that in the big picture, Cryptic will attract more people to the game and make more total sales of many different things by offering 1 FF slot. Money is money, and as long as they are making more money it doesn't matter what specific items they are selling to make it. I maintain that a single FF slot will attract many new people to the game, some of which will wind up spending more than the value of a FF slot on various different things they want.
A FF slot, currently, has a value of $50 U.S. That's a full product. I understand you disagree. As do I you.
I test drive cars. I get samples at stores and in the mail. Never do I get the full product...in any form. If I want it I have to work for it...i.e. usually buy it.
I don't agree with giving away the full product for free. A sample would be the way I could agree.
Fortunately, no one has suggested anything of the kind. The "full product" is what you get for subscribing, which includes X number of FF character slots(can't remember the number), plus 500 zen per month, plus lots of costume parts, more inventory space, etc, etc. No one has suggested giving away all of that for free, only a single FF slot.
8 Slots for Monthly Sub, 16 for LTS... or if you want to look at it from the perspective of "new slots" +6 & +14... +1 bonus for every lvl 40...
I don't agree with giving away the full product for free. A sample would be the way I could agree.
Fortunately, no one has suggested anything of the kind. The "full product" is what you get for subscribing, which includes X number of FF character slots(can't remember the number), plus 500 zen per month, plus lots of costume parts, more inventory space, etc, etc. No one has suggested giving away all of that for free, only a single FF slot.
8 Slots for Monthly Sub, 16 for LTS... or if you want to look at it from the perspective of "new slots" +6 & +14... +1 bonus for every lvl 40...
Exactly. The "full product" for this game is a subscription or a LTS, and all of the various things that come with it. Owning a single FF slot is not even remotely close to the "full product".
That's actually funny to me. You're going to tell me what I meant when I said "full product". That's definitely one way to "discuss" something.
I hope you get everything you wish for in this game. Honest.
I'm not telling you what you meant, I'm telling you what the term actually means. You can mean anything you want, but your personal definition does not change what something actually means in the real world. FULL product, means exactly that; the FULL product. Not a little piece of the full product. The only way to get the full product in this game is to subscribe, or LTS. Getting a single FF slot is not getting the full product.
We don't use a crystal ball, we use plain old rationality. We actually can say that someone who gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't spend any further money was never going to do so anyway, because they didn't spend any money; we base our assumption on what they did, rather than all the other things they could have done but didn't. They had plenty of opportunity to buy something, and the only time a z-store item ever came into their possession was the time they got one for free. All signs point to the assumption being correct. That's how you do these things when you don't own a crystal ball.
Are you guys leaving out the people who would have spent money but instead didn't because they got what they wanted for free on purpose, or are you just not thinking that it's a possibility? You're basically saying that no one's ever just bought a Freeform slot and left it at that. That's a form of loss.
Until we all have looked at the analytics, we can assume stuff all day long until we're blue in the face, but in the end, we can't really argue what would make more money for the game. Maybe the slots sell like crazy, and giving one away to everyone ends up making them less money because less people will buy them. Maybe it'll affect the prices of Retcon Tokens because now if someone biffs their build at like level 23, they just make a new account and roll up a new character? Who knows what all this could affect, good or bad? The ideas are nice, but acting like we know what's best for the game with such surety is silly.
There seems to be a lot of underestimating the power of free.
When I go to Costco, people hover over the person giving out free samples. People who can not only afford to shop there, but also afford the membership to get into the store. And they flock like vultures for some jelly beans or crackers. Stuff they could just buy and sample themselves. Buy hey! Free! Woo!
A couple months back, we were doing our regular monthly Costco run, and someone had free samples of a new variety of hummus they were selling. We tried it, and promptly went over and bought containers of two different flavors because we liked it.
By analogy, you give the free players one silver FF slot each, and some will just take that and go away, the same way some folks just eat the free samples and leave. But for many, including me, that taste is so enticing, we just have to have more. Which is why I currently have almost 40 toons, even after a culling last month. There's always something new I want to try, and I don't always want to get rid of what I have first.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
like some have already said before. if cryptic gives 1 ff slot for everyone, all those people who weren't planning to buy one, or those who weren't even playing, trying their FF slot and then either leaving keep playing without spending money isn't a loss to cryptic. The only real loss is those who were planning to buy a slot and instead got the one for free and decide to not buy anything else, and those who were playing and paying and don't like the decision and leave the game.
There seems to be a lot of underestimating the power of free.
When I go to Costco, people hover over the person giving out free samples. People who can not only afford to shop there, but also afford the membership to get into the store. And they flock like vultures for some jelly beans or crackers. Stuff they could just buy and sample themselves. Buy hey! Free! Woo!
A couple months back, we were doing our regular monthly Costco run, and someone had free samples of a new variety of hummus they were selling. We tried it, and promptly went over and bought containers of two different flavors because we liked it.
By analogy, you give the free players one silver FF slot each, and some will just take that and go away, the same way some folks just eat the free samples and leave. But for many, including me, that taste is so enticing, we just have to have more. Which is why I currently have almost 40 toons, even after a culling last month. There's always something new I want to try, and I don't always want to get rid of what I have first.
Silly Jon, there you go making sense on the internet. How absurd =P
We don't use a crystal ball, we use plain old rationality. We actually can say that someone who gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't spend any further money was never going to do so anyway, because they didn't spend any money; we base our assumption on what they did, rather than all the other things they could have done but didn't. They had plenty of opportunity to buy something, and the only time a z-store item ever came into their possession was the time they got one for free. All signs point to the assumption being correct. That's how you do these things when you don't own a crystal ball.
Are you guys leaving out the people who would have spent money but instead didn't because they got what they wanted for free on purpose, or are you just not thinking that it's a possibility? You're basically saying that no one's ever just bought a Freeform slot and left it at that. That's a form of loss.
Until we all have looked at the analytics, we can assume stuff all day long until we're blue in the face, but in the end, we can't really argue what would make more money for the game. Maybe the slots sell like crazy, and giving one away to everyone ends up making them less money because less people will buy them. Maybe it'll affect the prices of Retcon Tokens because now if someone biffs their build at like level 23, they just make a new account and roll up a new character? Who knows what all this could affect, good or bad? The ideas are nice, but acting like we know what's best for the game with such surety is silly.
The problem is you're trying to divine the future, or an alternate time line. That's just not rationale. You go by what you know, what you can observe.
If someone was only ever going to buy 1 slot, then they still have that money. They were intending to spend it, which means it's likely that they still will. Maybe not on a freeform slot, but on something. Yes, there are those people who say "I WILL ONLY BUY 1 FREEFORM SLOT EVER AND NOTHING ELSE", and the stars will align and a few of those people will have made the decision to buy that 1 freeform slot in the space of time between the previous sale and the time that they give away that 1 freeform slot. So we give up a very small number of sales for the potential to make many more. Hell if we wanna be sneaky we have a sale 1 week before we give the free ones away to minimize this effect ( and yes, some people would complain if we did this... because some people will complain about getting something for free ).
We're not talking about a large enough number of potential lost sales to make the idea not worth it. Yes yes, we don't know that 100% for sure, but we can still be rational about it.
A FF slot, currently, has a value of $50 U.S. That's a full product. I understand you disagree. As do I you.
I test drive cars. I get samples at stores and in the mail. Never do I get the full product...in any form. If I want it I have to work for it...i.e. usually buy it.
Anyway good luck.
I would like to sell you a tire for 100,000$. It's the price of an expensive car, so it's the full product yes?
A FF slot, currently, has a value of $50 U.S. That's a full product. I understand you disagree. As do I you.
I test drive cars. I get samples at stores and in the mail. Never do I get the full product...in any form. If I want it I have to work for it...i.e. usually buy it.
Anyway good luck.
I would like to sell you a tire for 100,000$. It's the price of an expensive car, so it's the full product yes?
The problem is you're trying to divine the future, or an alternate time line. That's just not rationale. You go by what you know, what you can observe.
You calling me black? Because you look like a pot right now. I'm not the one trying to divine anything; I'm the only one saying that none of us can know how this idea would pan out because we haven't looked at the analytics. You're the one saying you're pretty darn sure you're right because of your observations and fancy rationale.
And that's exactly why none of us is fit to say what works or not. None of us know any of it. We do know that some stuff sells. We don't know how much of what sells. You can make up numbers in your head all day long but that doesn't line up with reality. Without knowing any of the analytics, all this talk of "it would make the game money" or "it would make the game less money" is all hypothetical. No amount of rationale is going to make you more right than anyone else.
The point that is being argued is essentially the same basic principal behind the F2P model in general. Sure, you can argue that the game can't possibly make more money once a subscription is no longer required to play, and yet in almost every case, it does. Of course, you could always cite the example of the guy who was about to subscribe, but then doesn't do it because the game went F2P. So yes, that sale was "lost". But that specific situation is vastly outweighed by the shere number of small purchases that result in more money in the long run.
Now obviously, Champs is already F2P. But I think that Champs is fundamentally different than most F2P games. When I play other games, like TOR, I'm playing them to play the narrative mission content. But when I play Champs, I'm playing it mainly to have fun playing my character and powers. I don't really care that I'm playing the same Alert I've played a million times before, because it is the character that is the main attraction here, for me, not the missions.
That being the case, I think that Champ's current F2P model actually fails to deliver the same thing that every other game's F2P model does, which is let people experience the core element of gameplay for free. And that is the very reason why I think Champs has not been very successful. Frankly, it might be too late to turn things around, but I think giving people a single FF slot and actually advertising that change is the only real possibility at this point.
FYI I haven't been arguing against any of that. All I'm saying is that anyone who thinks any of their ideas are sure to make money shouldn't base their arguments around that. For all I know, this could make Cryptic millions and millions and end world hunger to boot, but I'm willing to bet that there are people at Cryptic/PWE that know a whole lot more than us about the financial dealings of this game, and they're probably a better judge of what's good for the game than any of us do.
FYI I haven't been arguing against any of that. All I'm saying is that anyone who thinks any of their ideas are sure to make money shouldn't base their arguments around that. For all I know, this could make Cryptic millions and millions and end world hunger to boot, but I'm willing to bet that there are people at Cryptic/PWE that know a whole lot more than us about the financial dealings of this game, and they're probably a better judge of what's good for the game than any of us do.
You're right; none of us are professional game developers or industry insiders(well, that we know of). Now that we have that out of the way, we can continue to discuss why we think this idea would or would not work, and use logic to support our positions. All of that said, it's also worth noting that professionals and industry insiders decided to do the NGE over at SWG, so "they probably know better than we do about what's best for the game" isn't always the case.
Not always, no, and that's how it could go for free freeform slots, too.
If you wanna keep using "logic" to support your positions, fine, but you're just kidding yourself. It's guesses and estimations and hypothetical, and nothing more.
I feel I should point out that I did state in a few of my previous posts that all we really can do is speculate based on the tiny pottentially unreliable amount of information we actually do have...
What we know: - The handful of people who have made claims to have gotten 1 or more FF slots during the Grab Bag event say the accusition of a free FF slot lead to them buying more and ultimately subscribing. - Some of us only play the game today because of Freeform - Silver players are constantly reminded of what they could have if they bought FF
What we don't know: - How many of the FF grab bag testimonies are reliable - How many people who got FF slots from the grab bag event bought more as a result and if this was a majority or a minority result - How many people actually stick aroundd due to FF as opposed to other factors - How many Silver players actually care that they are missing out on FF - How many won't buy FF or subscribe without getting to try it first - How much of an impact 1 FF slot for all will really have - Any of the analytics that Cryptic most likely has on the subject - and Much MUCH more...
So yes it's all speculation at this point since the tiny bit of information we actually have to work with is little more than word of mouth from a miniscule portion of the population. I mean we have what? about 20 forum regulars now-days? and only a handful of those who post in this topic. Even if we are to belive some of the claims from other players that there are only a few hundred players left on CO, us forum regulars make up less than 5% of the population. So any views we may share in common about this might only be a minority view.
That said.. I think we've all already covered pretty much everything that any of us can actually say on this topic without any sort of reliable information that none of us are privy to.
Within the context of the discussion "full product" is a FF slot. You can now pick nits with the next person. I'm done.
Let me feed you one time. For your analogy to work you would have to give me a $100,000 car in hopes that I would love that car SOOoooo much that I'd buy another for full price. Now, what are those odds? Real world analogies don't really work. But, sales strategies do. Maybe my "logic" is off?
Let me feed you one time. For your analogy to work you would have to give me a $100,000 car in hopes that I would love that car SOOoooo much that I'd buy another for full price. Now, what are those odds? Real world analogies don't really work. But, sales strategies do. Maybe my "logic" is off?
I'm fairly certain that Spinny was comparing the FF slot to a Tire on a car since the FF slot is only a part of the game, and important part (much like a tire on a car) but still only a part. The game (the car) is the full product, and you have multiple options for buying the game (much like a car), you can pay monthly (lease), you can buy an LTS (pay full up front), or you can buy it piecemeal (custom build/repair). And to be honest, they are correct in that analogy. Yes a FF slot may be priced at $50 which is the equivilent of most new video games, however the full cost of Champions Online is the price of an LTS ($300). You wouldn't buy the DLC for a new game and claim it was the full product would you? Of course not, the full product is the game itself, regardless of if the DLC costs as much as the game itself.
Let me feed you one time. For your analogy to work you would have to give me a $100,000 car in hopes that I would love that car SOOoooo much that I'd buy another for full price. Now, what are those odds? Real world analogies don't really work. But, sales strategies do. Maybe my "logic" is off?
I'm fairly certain that Spinny was comparing the FF slot to a Tire on a car since the FF slot is only a part of the game, and important part (much like a tire on a car) but still only a part. The game (the car) is the full product, and you have multiple options for buying the game (much like a car), you can pay monthly (lease), you can buy an LTS (pay full up front), or you can buy it piecemeal (custom build/repair). And to be honest, they are correct in that analogy. Yes a FF slot may be priced at $50 which is the equivilent of most new video games, however the full cost of Champions Online is the price of an LTS ($300). You wouldn't buy the DLC for a new game and claim it was the full product would you? Of course not, the full product is the game itself, regardless of if the DLC costs as much as the game itself.
stratluver said:Within the context of the discussion "full product" is a FF slot. You can now pick nits with the next person. I'm done.
I have to leave this "discussion". For the record I see merit in the idea. I just don't agree with giving away the slot.
Within the context of the discussion "full product" is a FF slot. You can now pick nits with the next person. I'm done.
I have to leave this "discussion". For the record I see merit in the idea. I just don't agree with giving away the slot.
Except that even within this discussion, the full product is still the game as a whole. The idea is to give away a important part of the game to promote growth. By offering an important part of the game to new players for free and letting them try it on limit-1 character, the expectation is that this showcase will entice them to purchase additional FF slots &/or subscribe. Or at the very least cause more new players to stick around and possibly spend money in the cash shop on other things.
The current system is a lot like a carrot on a stick... they dangle that carrot (Freeform) infront of new players but it's always out of their reach unless they pay for it. Until then they can only look at it and imagine what it's like. Some will buy into it; but most will give up, grow frustrated, and quit.
This idea is in no way a new one either. Many of us (myself included) have been asking for Cryptic to do this since even before they actually made the FF slot. Several of the original FF slot suggestions made note that silver should be given 1 free slot with it's introduction. Instead we got a limited time grab bag event in which only a small number of people actually acquired free FF slots and the slot was quite honestly overpriced. We understand the idea behind the high price was to encourage subscription instead.
Strat, a Silver FF slot lets you pick your powers. You can't recolor them, I don't think you can choose emanation points, and you don't get a free slot for hitting 40. And no matter how long you play them, you don't get the Gold vet rewards. Those are just some of the perks of the full sub. (When I went LTS, I suddenly had 16 more slots, all FF, with power colorization, specification of emanation points, some extra costume packs that would have cost me as a Silver, all the vet rewards up front, some free respecs, and five bucks in Zen per month. None of that is in a Silver FF slot.)
So maybe comparing a Silver FF slot to one tire on a $100,000 car is a bit over the top. It's more like the job I had in southern California once, getting to drive repossessed cars to an auction house. I got a taste of what it was like to drive a lot of fancy cars (BTW, Jaguars are unreliable beaters, a Corvette's fast but handles like a truck, Mustangs are fun as hell, and the highest-performance car I got to drive was an Infiniti I-series - left rubber leaving the parking garage in LA, because traffic on that street just never let up). You get to drive an FF, and hear about the other things you can get with it if you sub, and if FFs are to your liking, well, it's only fifteen bucks a month...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Eh, personally I'd like like to be able to buy the Freeform Slots for others via a gifting system or allow it to become a token that can be traded to others rather than make it free for everyone. At least then it's still getting paid for and people have another option with which to be generous with. With a subscription, I'm covered on character slots so long as I have a game to play, but if I had the option to give that to someone else... Yeah, I'd like to do that.
Not always, no, and that's how it could go for free freeform slots, too.
If you wanna keep using "logic" to support your positions, fine, but you're just kidding yourself. It's guesses and estimations and hypothetical, and nothing more.
I heard that at one point you were against telling people that their arguments were flawed.
Within the context of the discussion "full product" is a FF slot. You can now pick nits with the next person. I'm done.
Let me feed you one time. For your analogy to work you would have to give me a $100,000 car in hopes that I would love that car SOOoooo much that I'd buy another for full price. Now, what are those odds? Real world analogies don't really work. But, sales strategies do. Maybe my "logic" is off?
You confused which analogy was which and ended up crossing them. Never cross the analogies!
What a thread. Certainly an example of how a discussion can shut itself down.
On one hand, I do agree that there should be at least one form of free Freeform slot for silver players. It's basically the bread and butter of the game, and the fact that it's hid behind 3 different types of paywall is a bit disappointing, and the closest thing you get to build flexibility as a pure silver are the occasional choices you can make for a power in Archetypes. Letting players experience everything is a good way to introduce the real meat of the game.
On the other hand, Freeform is very open. So open that I think it might end up damaging the game if it were freely available right from the get-go. That's not because the system itself is flawed, it is incredibly easy to corner yourself into an awful build, by not picking a passive or picking multiple of one general type of ability. It doesn't call for a revamp or simplication of Freeform itself, it just calls for a rolling tutorial, at least for the first 14 levels so a player can get their bearings. I know that the game pokes you about having points to spend every time you level up, but aside from that, the tutorials are very limited.
So I think the situation calls for a unique option.
Limited Freeform Slot:
First, has to pick a role. This role is permanent for the hero and cannot be changed once selected. To keep things balanced, each role can only select from a set amount of powers that relate directly to their role. (For instance: Pick a Melee role and you can only pick from Melee powers.)
Their role and powerset choices (which would be selected upon creation) affect their choice of Superstats, of which they will be given a choice of 3. They can freely pick any primary from the 3 they will get based on their choices. Meaning that if they went Melee\Tank, they could easily pick Constitution as their primary and not Strength for instance.
For their Innate Talent, these characters would always recieve "The Hero" for their Innate Talent.
Upon each level up, they are given a much wider albeit forced selection of powers. A level 8, much like archetypes now, you MUST pick a passive. Again, power selection would be limited depending on your choice of role. I.E. If you pick Melee, you must pick from a selection of melee-oriented offensive passives.
The total number of powers available by level 40 would match the amount current Archetypes get in comparison to true Freeform characters.
Basically, the idea is that Archetypes become the Roles themselves. Unlimited Freeform could still be marketed as-is, now with the extra perk of, say, "Unlimited Freeform heroes can pick any power they wish for, even ones outside of their roles!"
I heard that at one point you were against telling people that their arguments were flawed.
The entire argument this whole time was about not rejecting other people's arguments based on data someone believes to be true and not actual truth. If you wanna start getting at me for this one, you might wanna go back in time a few days and start there because I'm still saying the same thing.
What a thread. Certainly an example of how a discussion can shut itself down.
On one hand, I do agree that there should be at least one form of free Freeform slot for silver players. It's basically the bread and butter of the game, and the fact that it's hid behind 3 different types of paywall is a bit disappointing, and the closest thing you get to build flexibility as a pure silver are the occasional choices you can make for a power in Archetypes. Letting players experience everything is a good way to introduce the real meat of the game.
On the other hand, Freeform is very open. So open that I think it might end up damaging the game if it were freely available right from the get-go. That's not because the system itself is flawed, it is incredibly easy to corner yourself into an awful build, by not picking a passive or picking multiple of one general type of ability. It doesn't call for a revamp or simplication of Freeform itself, it just calls for a rolling tutorial, at least for the first 14 levels so a player can get their bearings. I know that the game pokes you about having points to spend every time you level up, but aside from that, the tutorials are very limited.
So I think the situation calls for a unique option.
Limited Freeform Slot:
First, has to pick a role. This role is permanent for the hero and cannot be changed once selected. To keep things balanced, each role can only select from a set amount of powers that relate directly to their role. (For instance: Pick a Melee role and you can only pick from Melee powers.)
Their role and powerset choices (which would be selected upon creation) affect their choice of Superstats, of which they will be given a choice of 3. They can freely pick any primary from the 3 they will get based on their choices. Meaning that if they went Melee\Tank, they could easily pick Constitution as their primary and not Strength for instance.
For their Innate Talent, these characters would always recieve "The Hero" for their Innate Talent.
Upon each level up, they are given a much wider albeit forced selection of powers. A level 8, much like archetypes now, you MUST pick a passive. Again, power selection would be limited depending on your choice of role. I.E. If you pick Melee, you must pick from a selection of melee-oriented offensive passives.
The total number of powers available by level 40 would match the amount current Archetypes get in comparison to true Freeform characters.
Basically, the idea is that Archetypes become the Roles themselves. Unlimited Freeform could still be marketed as-is, now with the extra perk of, say, "Unlimited Freeform heroes can pick any power they wish for, even ones outside of their roles!"
"limited freeform" that sounds kinda contradictory isnt it?
Just another reptile lover, known in game as @nacito
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
I still think showing off freeform with a crippled version of it is not the way to go. It's gotta be full freeform to really sell it.
I don't agree because if you entice people with something they are more apt to get extra features associated with it. If you give someone a steak dinner for free, and expect them to buy another to cover the cost, you will probably find they will unlikely do it. Not to mention full freeform for free accounts just means most people will make new accounts rather than pay. A bigger risky endeavor. If you lock features but offer them a small taste, they are more likely to pay for things.
If you look back at my earlier posts in this thread you'll see that I made the same arguments. I don't think giving one away to everyone is a good idea, and would rather opt for some sort of a test drive.
Why not for maybe one month all silver accounts are temporarily made gold so that silver players get to experience *everything* a subscription offers (let's toss in that Zen stipend as well for good measure). Then at the end of the month, any account that isn't subscribed or LTS gets reverted back to silver.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
That would be cool. My only concern is the confusion of switching characters from silver archetypes to gold archetypes or freeform and then back after the promo is over, and whether or not they'll need to pay for the change back.
If you look back at my earlier posts in this thread you'll see that I made the same arguments. I don't think giving one away to everyone is a good idea, and would rather opt for some sort of a test drive.
Why limited freeform would be the best. It's obvious Archetypes failed as a concept as no one thought it was worth it to drop money down to finally have the privilege to use a basic feature of Champions. Not to mention the $50 dollar price tag for current freeform slots is completely outrageous, especially since the cost of a new game, $60 bucks, gave us 8 slots.
A limited freeform, on the other hand, is a proven method of working in other systems. They tried to apply class logic to the system, but in order for limited freeform to work, Cryptic would actually have to buckle down and flesh out the power sets as they are now. No one wants to feel forced they have to get something to be competitive, and forcing people to have to buy certain power sets to get key features (like healing, defense, or offense) would be a tremendously bad move. I think it cost Cryptic more to create the archetypes instead of actually making a limited freeform system, both short and long term.
They could change gears and go back and redo it now, and it would probably inspire people to at least give the game a shot, but they also need content now.
But the whole point of freeform is that you can be a guy that punches people with magical fireball abilities and also for some reason you can build turrets to fight for you and also you have dogs following you and when you can't reach something you pull out a bow and arrow. Giving someone a limited freeform slot that doesn't have all the bells and whistles doesn't sell what freeform actually is. I think a person needs to be able to try it and experience the entire thing in order to get a grip on what it is they're being sold.
Selling a crippled freeform is not too much better than selling an archetype. If you give them only a couple powersets, you're still saying "you can only use these powers" just like an archetype with a bit of breathing room.
I'm not against a piecemeal way of selling Freeform, but as an advertising mechanic, I think people should be able to get a taste of the actual real deal.
But the whole point of freeform is that you can be a guy that punches people with magical fireball abilities and also for some reason you can build turrets to fight for you and also you have dogs following you and when you can't reach something you pull out a bow and arrow. Giving someone a limited freeform slot that doesn't have all the bells and whistles doesn't sell what freeform actually is. I think a person needs to be able to try it and experience the entire thing in order to get a grip on what it is they're being sold.
Selling a crippled freeform is not too much better than selling an archetype. If you give them only a couple powersets, you're still saying "you can only use these powers" just like an archetype with a bit of breathing room.
I'm not against a piecemeal way of selling Freeform, but as an advertising mechanic, I think people should be able to get a taste of the actual real deal.
Actually it is. Even if you have 1 of each power forms power set the people would still have the ability to create a character that is viable as any freeform. If they want additional power sets well they can buy those. It's the carrot on the stick. Saying it wouldn't be better than Archetypes seems to be humongous misnomer.
For the record, I'm ok with most any method of giving Silver a way to try FF for free...
30-day trial Gold period? Has downsides and honestly feels like a giant money grab to most players, but it does work.
1 Free FF for everyone? Sure some will try to exploit it, but that's honestly not any different than the handful of people who exploit the 2 starting character slots. It can be exploited, but it's not really worth it to exploit it.
Limited FF for silver? If the issues of "you must have this power set available" and whatnot are resolved first, then this is also a good option... in any form... fewer total powers? restricted by powerset category? limited to owned power sets? restricted by power set? restricted by role? all of these and any combination of these can work fine, but there are some issues with the current FF system that must be addressed before limited FF would be a truly viable option.
Looking at that from a few different perspectives you'd see this: Time required to implement? Shortest: Trial period | Longest: Limited FF Potential to turn away new players? Lowest: 1 Free FF | Highest: Trial period Quality of showcase? Highest: Trial Period | Lowest: Limited FF Potential to exploit? Lowest: Limited FF | 1 Free FF
Looking at that from a few different perspectives you'd see this: Time required to implement? Shortest: Trial period | Longest: Limited FF Potential to turn away new players? Lowest: 1 Free FF | Highest: Trial period Quality of showcase? Highest: Trial Period | Lowest: Limited FF Potential to exploit? Lowest: Limited FF | 1 Free FF
Yea... and looking at it they all kinda balance out to be about equal in terms of effectiveness...
Trial has 2 pretty decent positives to it, but also has what has to be potentially the biggest downside tied to it as well Limited FF has 2 pretty noticeable downsides, but it's got a pretty big upside as well... 1 Free falls in the middle on a lot of things, and where it really shines kinda gets knocked back down by it's biggest downside...
So honestly they can do any of these 3 options and it will probably work out about the same as if they had done either of the other two...
Comments
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Freeform is the ONLY reason I've spent over $600 on this game, and the only reason I still play today. If I had access to just 1 FF slot from day 1, I would have never thought of quitting, and would have spent money sooner than I did, and likely by now would have spent close to, if not over, $1000 on CO.
I'll admit, my view on this topic is heavily biased by my own personal experience. But, honestly I don't think that bias is necessarily a bad thing given the topic.
Or, maybe they won't buy anything at all. Maybe, for that specific person, Cryptic lost what could have been a sale. I acknowledge that possibility. But here comes the good part: I still maintain that in the big picture, Cryptic will attract more people to the game and make more total sales of many different things by offering 1 FF slot. Money is money, and as long as they are making more money it doesn't matter what specific items they are selling to make it. I maintain that a single FF slot will attract many new people to the game, some of which will wind up spending more than the value of a FF slot on various different things they want.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I test drive cars. I get samples at stores and in the mail. Never do I get the full product...in any form. If I want it I have to work for it...i.e. usually buy it.
Anyway good luck.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I hope you get everything you wish for in this game. Honest.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
By analogy, you give the free players one silver FF slot each, and some will just take that and go away, the same way some folks just eat the free samples and leave. But for many, including me, that taste is so enticing, we just have to have more. Which is why I currently have almost 40 toons, even after a culling last month. There's always something new I want to try, and I don't always want to get rid of what I have first.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
If someone was only ever going to buy 1 slot, then they still have that money. They were intending to spend it, which means it's likely that they still will. Maybe not on a freeform slot, but on something. Yes, there are those people who say "I WILL ONLY BUY 1 FREEFORM SLOT EVER AND NOTHING ELSE", and the stars will align and a few of those people will have made the decision to buy that 1 freeform slot in the space of time between the previous sale and the time that they give away that 1 freeform slot. So we give up a very small number of sales for the potential to make many more. Hell if we wanna be sneaky we have a sale 1 week before we give the free ones away to minimize this effect ( and yes, some people would complain if we did this... because some people will complain about getting something for free ).
We're not talking about a large enough number of potential lost sales to make the idea not worth it. Yes yes, we don't know that 100% for sure, but we can still be rational about it.
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And that's exactly why none of us is fit to say what works or not. None of us know any of it. We do know that some stuff sells. We don't know how much of what sells. You can make up numbers in your head all day long but that doesn't line up with reality. Without knowing any of the analytics, all this talk of "it would make the game money" or "it would make the game less money" is all hypothetical. No amount of rationale is going to make you more right than anyone else.
Now obviously, Champs is already F2P. But I think that Champs is fundamentally different than most F2P games. When I play other games, like TOR, I'm playing them to play the narrative mission content. But when I play Champs, I'm playing it mainly to have fun playing my character and powers. I don't really care that I'm playing the same Alert I've played a million times before, because it is the character that is the main attraction here, for me, not the missions.
That being the case, I think that Champ's current F2P model actually fails to deliver the same thing that every other game's F2P model does, which is let people experience the core element of gameplay for free. And that is the very reason why I think Champs has not been very successful. Frankly, it might be too late to turn things around, but I think giving people a single FF slot and actually advertising that change is the only real possibility at this point.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
If you wanna keep using "logic" to support your positions, fine, but you're just kidding yourself. It's guesses and estimations and hypothetical, and nothing more.
What we know:
- The handful of people who have made claims to have gotten 1 or more FF slots during the Grab Bag event say the accusition of a free FF slot lead to them buying more and ultimately subscribing.
- Some of us only play the game today because of Freeform
- Silver players are constantly reminded of what they could have if they bought FF
What we don't know:
- How many of the FF grab bag testimonies are reliable
- How many people who got FF slots from the grab bag event bought more as a result and if this was a majority or a minority result
- How many people actually stick aroundd due to FF as opposed to other factors
- How many Silver players actually care that they are missing out on FF
- How many won't buy FF or subscribe without getting to try it first
- How much of an impact 1 FF slot for all will really have
- Any of the analytics that Cryptic most likely has on the subject
- and Much MUCH more...
So yes it's all speculation at this point since the tiny bit of information we actually have to work with is little more than word of mouth from a miniscule portion of the population. I mean we have what? about 20 forum regulars now-days? and only a handful of those who post in this topic. Even if we are to belive some of the claims from other players that there are only a few hundred players left on CO, us forum regulars make up less than 5% of the population. So any views we may share in common about this might only be a minority view.
That said.. I think we've all already covered pretty much everything that any of us can actually say on this topic without any sort of reliable information that none of us are privy to.
I would like to sell you a tire for 100,000$. It's the price of an expensive car, so it's the full product yes? Let me feed you one time. For your analogy to work you would have to give me a $100,000 car in hopes that I would love that car SOOoooo much that I'd buy another for full price. Now, what are those odds? Real world analogies don't really work. But, sales strategies do. Maybe my "logic" is off?
I have to leave this "discussion". For the record I see merit in the idea. I just don't agree with giving away the slot.
The current system is a lot like a carrot on a stick... they dangle that carrot (Freeform) infront of new players but it's always out of their reach unless they pay for it. Until then they can only look at it and imagine what it's like. Some will buy into it; but most will give up, grow frustrated, and quit.
This idea is in no way a new one either. Many of us (myself included) have been asking for Cryptic to do this since even before they actually made the FF slot. Several of the original FF slot suggestions made note that silver should be given 1 free slot with it's introduction. Instead we got a limited time grab bag event in which only a small number of people actually acquired free FF slots and the slot was quite honestly overpriced. We understand the idea behind the high price was to encourage subscription instead.
So maybe comparing a Silver FF slot to one tire on a $100,000 car is a bit over the top. It's more like the job I had in southern California once, getting to drive repossessed cars to an auction house. I got a taste of what it was like to drive a lot of fancy cars (BTW, Jaguars are unreliable beaters, a Corvette's fast but handles like a truck, Mustangs are fun as hell, and the highest-performance car I got to drive was an Infiniti I-series - left rubber leaving the parking garage in LA, because traffic on that street just never let up). You get to drive an FF, and hear about the other things you can get with it if you sub, and if FFs are to your liking, well, it's only fifteen bucks a month...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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And I will always be @DZPlayer122.
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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You confused which analogy was which and ended up crossing them. Never cross the analogies!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Time to spent my zen
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
On one hand, I do agree that there should be at least one form of free Freeform slot for silver players. It's basically the bread and butter of the game, and the fact that it's hid behind 3 different types of paywall is a bit disappointing, and the closest thing you get to build flexibility as a pure silver are the occasional choices you can make for a power in Archetypes. Letting players experience everything is a good way to introduce the real meat of the game.
On the other hand, Freeform is very open. So open that I think it might end up damaging the game if it were freely available right from the get-go. That's not because the system itself is flawed, it is incredibly easy to corner yourself into an awful build, by not picking a passive or picking multiple of one general type of ability. It doesn't call for a revamp or simplication of Freeform itself, it just calls for a rolling tutorial, at least for the first 14 levels so a player can get their bearings. I know that the game pokes you about having points to spend every time you level up, but aside from that, the tutorials are very limited.
So I think the situation calls for a unique option.
Limited Freeform Slot:- First, has to pick a role. This role is permanent for the hero and cannot be changed once selected. To keep things balanced, each role can only select from a set amount of powers that relate directly to their role. (For instance: Pick a Melee role and you can only pick from Melee powers.)
- Their role and powerset choices (which would be selected upon creation) affect their choice of Superstats, of which they will be given a choice of 3. They can freely pick any primary from the 3 they will get based on their choices. Meaning that if they went Melee\Tank, they could easily pick Constitution as their primary and not Strength for instance.
- For their Innate Talent, these characters would always recieve "The Hero" for their Innate Talent.
- Upon each level up, they are given a much wider albeit forced selection of powers. A level 8, much like archetypes now, you MUST pick a passive. Again, power selection would be limited depending on your choice of role. I.E. If you pick Melee, you must pick from a selection of melee-oriented offensive passives.
- The total number of powers available by level 40 would match the amount current Archetypes get in comparison to true Freeform characters.
Basically, the idea is that Archetypes become the Roles themselves. Unlimited Freeform could still be marketed as-is, now with the extra perk of, say, "Unlimited Freeform heroes can pick any power they wish for, even ones outside of their roles!""limited freeform" that sounds kinda contradictory isnt it?
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
This is a big journey, so far if you're reading this, wish you a good day
I don't agree because if you entice people with something they are more apt to get extra features associated with it. If you give someone a steak dinner for free, and expect them to buy another to cover the cost, you will probably find they will unlikely do it. Not to mention full freeform for free accounts just means most people will make new accounts rather than pay. A bigger risky endeavor. If you lock features but offer them a small taste, they are more likely to pay for things.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Why limited freeform would be the best. It's obvious Archetypes failed as a concept as no one thought it was worth it to drop money down to finally have the privilege to use a basic feature of Champions. Not to mention the $50 dollar price tag for current freeform slots is completely outrageous, especially since the cost of a new game, $60 bucks, gave us 8 slots.
A limited freeform, on the other hand, is a proven method of working in other systems. They tried to apply class logic to the system, but in order for limited freeform to work, Cryptic would actually have to buckle down and flesh out the power sets as they are now. No one wants to feel forced they have to get something to be competitive, and forcing people to have to buy certain power sets to get key features (like healing, defense, or offense) would be a tremendously bad move. I think it cost Cryptic more to create the archetypes instead of actually making a limited freeform system, both short and long term.
They could change gears and go back and redo it now, and it would probably inspire people to at least give the game a shot, but they also need content now.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Selling a crippled freeform is not too much better than selling an archetype. If you give them only a couple powersets, you're still saying "you can only use these powers" just like an archetype with a bit of breathing room.
I'm not against a piecemeal way of selling Freeform, but as an advertising mechanic, I think people should be able to get a taste of the actual real deal.
Actually it is. Even if you have 1 of each power forms power set the people would still have the ability to create a character that is viable as any freeform. If they want additional power sets well they can buy those. It's the carrot on the stick. Saying it wouldn't be better than Archetypes seems to be humongous misnomer.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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30-day trial Gold period? Has downsides and honestly feels like a giant money grab to most players, but it does work.
1 Free FF for everyone? Sure some will try to exploit it, but that's honestly not any different than the handful of people who exploit the 2 starting character slots. It can be exploited, but it's not really worth it to exploit it.
Limited FF for silver? If the issues of "you must have this power set available" and whatnot are resolved first, then this is also a good option... in any form... fewer total powers? restricted by powerset category? limited to owned power sets? restricted by power set? restricted by role? all of these and any combination of these can work fine, but there are some issues with the current FF system that must be addressed before limited FF would be a truly viable option.
Looking at that from a few different perspectives you'd see this:
Time required to implement? Shortest: Trial period | Longest: Limited FF
Potential to turn away new players? Lowest: 1 Free FF | Highest: Trial period
Quality of showcase? Highest: Trial Period | Lowest: Limited FF
Potential to exploit? Lowest: Limited FF | 1 Free FF
Trial has 2 pretty decent positives to it, but also has what has to be potentially the biggest downside tied to it as well
Limited FF has 2 pretty noticeable downsides, but it's got a pretty big upside as well...
1 Free falls in the middle on a lot of things, and where it really shines kinda gets knocked back down by it's biggest downside...
So honestly they can do any of these 3 options and it will probably work out about the same as if they had done either of the other two...