I've got three accounts, one because it's my main account (now LTS), one because back when I was Silver I wanted to do a thing and couldn't because I had no slots and no money, and one because I wanted to see how bad the "streamlined Character Creator" was. (Pretty bad.)
Today, I only use those accounts on STO, because #2 has the Fed-Rom Tovan Khev (and his merry crew Tovan Khev2, Tovan Khev3, Rinna Khev, and the Reman engineer Rinna NotKhev, aboard RRW Tovan Khev III) and #3 has Grunt, my main character for fanfic stories on the forums. I haven't touched the extra accounts in CO since creating Major Cleavage, after someone else was forced to rename their Major Cleavage character. (My defense of her, in case it ever comes up, is that that's her name - Maj. Andrea Cleavage, USMC (ret).)
Using multiple accounts is just such a hassle. I can't see anyone making "infinite" accounts for one free FF slot each, especially when if they buy something for one account it's not accessible on any of the others.
Post edited by jonsills on
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Personally I'd rather they just give everyone 1 FF slot. Period.
I've only been suggesting alternatives due to how vocally opposed a lot of people on this thread have been. And how vocally opposed many of the same people have been every time this topic has come up in the past, even prior to the addition of FF slots. And to be frank, the alternatives I've suggested here are taken out of previous iterations of this very topic. I'm not going to create a new alternative for something that I honestly don't believe needs an alternative, but I will reiterate the alternatives that have been suggested in the past.
Overall, giving everyone 1 FF slot will yield far better results than any of the alternatives ever could.
Trial access, while time tested, often results in players feeling cheated, while it does have a better retention rate than a solid paygate does, it has the side effect of causing players who leave to not want to return, while a solid paygate might see them return to check out a new update or promotional they heard about.
Tester Characters, often called "Teaser Characters" by F2P players, tend to be more of a benefit to premium players as an easily accessible testing ground. While they give you a method of testing out premium benefits, they are severely limited in what they can actually do and as such aren't really a very good showcase.
Loyalty Reward, pretty simple really, most new players have no interest in paying for anything in a "free game". I've had this argument with a close friend of mine time and time again, and she still calls me an idiot for buying an LTS. As time passes they may feel more inclined to buy something, but that's assuming they stick around long enough for that nagging urge to kick in and win out. And when it's something that equates to "buying power" (which FF slots do) it leaves a sour taste in a lot of F2P players mouth when they see any sort of price tag on it without at least getting to try it for free. This includes the "Buy $X worth of ____, get ____ as a 'free' bonus", which is exactly what a Loyalty Reward is.
Limited access, a Limited Freeform system would have been a step in the right direction when CO went F2P, but at this point it's a bit to late for them to do that. That doesn't mean they shouldn't still do it... just that the damage has already been done and making the change now won't fix it. But in terms of new player retention, this would most certainly keep more new players than the current AT system and it would encourage more F2P players to buy power sets off the C-Store. And with any luck encourage Cryptic to develop more power sets for CO.
Limited Time Offer, ABSOLUTELY ONE OF THE WORST OPTIONS. No, I'm dead serious when I say that. In a game that's main draw is customization, locking anything behind limited time barriers is a TERRIBLE IDEA. It only creates a growing sense of resentment, and when a new player comes along and sees someone with something that they can NEVER get they are less likely to stick around, the more and more they see things they can't ever have the more likely they are to leave. Now, I know you're asking "what does that have to do with a limited time freeform slot give-away offer?" Pretty simple really... Unless this is made a regular occurrence (which has it's own problems I'll address in a moment) it's really no different than having never done it to begin with. This is exactly why those free character slots we've gotten a few times haven't created a big problem, their existence changed nothing in the long run. If it is a regular occurrence however, then you run into the problem of long term players grabbing a free slot every time the event comes around and never actually buying anything. If they wanted to just give out some free FF slots without any sort of return, then this is the way to go, but this topic is about promoting growth via free FF slots, and as I just said a limited time offer won't change anything for the better, and at worst it will just create more resentment. We've also already had this happen and with FF slots... as you can see, it had an immediate impact during and shortly after the event, but has had no lasting effect. New players who didn't get to experience it are still just as likely to leave as they were before the event ever happened.
1-time Max level Reward, one of the only alternatives that doesn't have a huge risk of backfire... it just has the downside of most new players don't play all the way to max level before they leave... so this really won't help promote growth since it's rewarded to late in a new players career.
which pretty much just leaves 1 option...
Everyone gets 1 free, yes it can be exploited by the truly determined, but as has been mentioned a thousand times already in this thread and in every previous iteration of this thread, the people who would create multiple accounts just to exploit 1 free slot aren't going to ever spend money in the game to begin with and most likely won't stick around long at all. Additionally, there are numerous account unlocks in the game that new players are not going to be willing to part with just to get a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th free FF slot. To the vast majority of players, keeping all of your characters on 1 account is far more worth it than saving a few bucks, and to any who have actually bought anything already it's FAR FAR more worth it than to buy everything multiple times... Giving everyone 1 free FF slot lets everyone get to experience the full game on at least 1 character, gets them hooked on the customization and increased their odds of buying a subscription or additional FF slots.
One final point... Spinnytop, who from what I have seen in many threads is vehemently opposed to any changes that directly impact the cash shop, is actually SUPPORTING this topic... and their reason? Because the FF grab bag event, way back when, directly resulted in them, and many others, buying more.
many viable options. besides the 1 free FF slot for everyone, I really like the limited FF. like starting with a few available choices and we could buy ourselves more powersets, I always thought that would be a nice idea and I woul have bought quite a bit already as a silver player. Contrary to rigid ATs which we can't mix and match (I still have bought a few though.)
I still think a middle ground would be just as good for giving silvers a taste of what a FF can do. Let them mix and match powers to ATs they own. (They would still have all the other limitations of an AT no custom stats, power colors, ect)
Well, after driving 300-something miles today, I can finally respond to some of today's posts! Unfortunately, the arguments against this idea are just the same flawed logic regurgitated from previous pages, meaning my response to that flawed logic is the same as before. That said, there seem to be a few popular flawed arguments, so I will respond to them again:
"Giving away something you are currently selling won't make you money"
Here is the thing: if someone ISN'T playing the game, then Cryptic ISN'T making any money from them. If you can grasp that basic fact, let's keep going. If offering someone 1 free FF slot gets them to play the game, and that person only spends ONE dollar, that is still one dollar MORE than Cryptic had before. And realistically speaking, you can't only spend $1; you have to buy zen in quantities of 1k. So if someone starts playing the game and sees something they want, they have to spend a minimum of $10.
"Oh yeah, well $10 is still a lot less than $50!!!"
Learn how to read. If someone ISN'T playing the game, then Cryptic' ISN'T making ANY money from them. So if you can get someone who wasn't spending ANY money to spend $10, that is $10 more than you had before.
"Someone can create unlimited free accounts and get unlimited FF slots"
First of all, there is a natural incentive to only play a single account: account unlocks. If you play multiple accounts, then you lose access to any account unlocks you have purchased on a different account. But let's just say worse case scenario, and someone does create 10 accounts to get 10 FF characters. Chances are, they will still wind up BUYING something on several of those accounts. Whether it is inventory space, a vehicle, costume parts, or anything else, if someone who was spending NO money on this game starts spending ANY money, then that is MORE money then they were spending before.
If someone can come up with some new logical counter argument to this idea, I'd love to debate it. But the same flawed arguments regurgitated over and over and just going to keep getting the same response.
I guess people sometimes forget that a FF slot doesn't cost cryptic a dime, compared to a real physical item. so they think that cryptic loses some money by giving away that slot.
Quote button is broke for me since all that comes up in the reply box is "null", so I'll have to make general responses.
The "manufacturing" cost for the FF slot doesn't really apply since the FF slot isn't a physical product. It's something digital and intangible and the closest description I can think of is similar to that of a VIP / premium service membership access card. Heck, the workhours put into making the slot might be even negligible, but that kind of access service it gives still has value. A one-time lump sum payment to override having to make recurring subscription payment is going to be of significant monetary value. You might disagree with the pricing. I might disagree with it. There are a whole lot of other examples out there we could probably voice our personal opinions about that seem to be priced more than what the quality of those products seem to suggest, but at the end of the day it really boils down whatever internal that goes on within the company that decides the pricing to justify whatever reasons they deem legitimate.
I could assert that it should actually be worth $20 or even $10, you might feel that it should be absolutely free, but ultimately it doesn't matter since we don't have direct control of it. Either we're part of market target of that $50, or we move on to something else to use our money for. Some other people will probably just step into our place and pay up the $50.
The idea of going thru the hassle of making multiple accounts to get more free FF slots might seem ludicrous, and I don't disagree, but that is really besides the point. The invitation to exploit is still there, especially considering that the FF slot still has a hefty 5000 ZEN price tag on it and I doubt Cryptic is ready to hand them out as freebies.
Once again, throwing a 5000 ZEN valued freeform slot at a player doesn't mean they're going to actually spend money at the store. If the player decided within a month or even a week that CO isn't the game for them then it's a $50 investment loss for Cryptic. I don't see how _this_ basic fact always gets ignored. If the player is genuinely interested in what the game has to offer, it's free to play. No monetary commitment needed before hand. It can essentially be looked at as one huge demo. ARC does a fairly good job at explaining why someone who's interested should give it a try. CO's steam profile does the same thing. That's when the player decides to stick around and if they do then the opportunity to spend at the store arises. The only other thing I think that's needed is some advertising, something as basic as small banners. I don't know what the costs involved are like though.
Also, I'm not saying all of this because I'm actually against them giving out FF slots for free. If Cryptic decides to, fine, so be it. I'm just making observations on why I don't expect them to be doing it.
Once again, throwing a 5000 ZEN valued freeform slot at a player doesn't mean they're going to actually spend money at the store. If the player decided within a month or even a week that CO isn't the game for them then it's a $50 investment loss for Cryptic. I don't see how [b]this[/b] basic fact always gets ignored.
No, every person who tries the game won't stay. Obvious statement is obvious. However, if someone isn't playing the game, then they are never going to buy a 5k FF slot in the first place. And since you can't lose money you never had, Cryptic loses nothing by giving them a FF slot, even if they don't stick around. However, some will stick around, and some will spend money.
If the player is genuinely interested in what the game has to offer, it's free to play. No monetary commitment needed before hand. It can essentially be looked at as one huge demo.
Some people forget this, but FF powers are the fundamental basis of this game. There were no archetypes until the game went F2P. That being the case, I would argue that without letting people see what FF is like, then they never truly have a chance to see what the game has to offer.
No, every person who tries the game won't stay. Obvious statement is obvious. However, if someone isn't playing the game, then they are never going to buy a 5k FF slot in the first place. And since you can't lose money you never had, Cryptic loses nothing by giving them a FF slot, even if they don't stick around. However, some will stick around, and some will spend money.
The FF slot is in the store, has a price tag and has always intended to be something to be sold. People are actually expected to use actual money to buy ZEN so that they meet the 5000 price requirement. If for some reason someone gets it for free then it's not a sale and Cryptic doesn't get money from it. Cryptic has made a loss in this instance.
The only way they don't make a loss is if they already have a commitment from the player to spend on other products or services that Cryptic has. That involves an assurance of a player sticking around. There isn't an assurance of that with what you're suggesting, especially since it's impossible to quantify exactly how many people need to spend money to actually qualify as worthwhile returns. It's too derivative.
Some people forget this, but FF powers are the fundamental basis of this game. There were no archetypes until the game went F2P. That being the case, I would argue that without letting people see what FF is like, then they never truly have a chance to see what the game has to offer.
Fine, if people want to have a taste of what FF is like, I can see putting FF and every other thing gold-related on a 30-day free trial upon creation of a silver account as something reasonable that they can work with.
The FF slot is in the store, has a price tag and has always intended to be something to be sold. People are actually expected to use actual money to buy ZEN so that they meet the 5000 price requirement. If for some reason someone gets it for free then it's not a sale and Cryptic doesn't get money from it. Cryptic has made a loss in this instance.
Once again:
If someone isn't playing the game, then they are never going to buy a 5k FF slot in the first place. And since you can't lose money you never had, Cryptic loses nothing by giving them a FF slot, even if they don't stick around.
Regurgitate the same thing over and over, and I'll just copy/paste again for you.
Some people forget this, but FF powers are the fundamental basis of this game. There were no archetypes until the game went F2P. That being the case, I would argue that without letting people see what FF is like, then they never truly have a chance to see what the game has to offer.
I completely agree. I said it once in this thread already and I will repeat myself now. I wouldn't have stuck with CO as long as I have nor would I have bought an LTS if I had never tried out FF. To me a $15 subscription wasn't a big deal to try it out, but for many others its a huge deal when the game is "Free". I've argued to exhaustion with my closest friend regarding spending money on "free game" and she and I will never see eye to eye on the subject. However her and I are on different ends of the norm. A lot of people won't pay for something without knowing exactly what they are getting first. Without giving players an option to atleast try FF for free then a lot of them won't be willing to buy it. And with the simple FACT that silver players who are constantly reminded of FF and it's potential, you have a recipie for losing players. Offering silver atleast a way to try out FF will lead to a higher retention rate and leadd to more purchases of FF slots and subscriptions.
Quote button is broke for me since all that comes up in the reply box is "null", so I'll have to make general responses.
The "manufacturing" cost for the FF slot doesn't really apply since the FF slot isn't a physical product.
That was the point. Physical products being given away for free have a much higher cost than giving away a $50 FF slot. And yet other industries have been doing it for decades because it makes money. There is no downside of any kind that can remotely match that in a digital product.
I bet Cryptic can tell when someone is making multiple accounts. I know other game companies can. So, if they were concerned over "exploiting" that can already be done, they'd be banning accounts. It could probably be automated too. Doesn't do you any good to have multiple accounts for FF slots if they all get banned.
If Cryptic "loses" money by giving away a single FF slot to new account, that means they are already losing money by giving way Free AT to people who quite the game and never buy anything. Oh, and Cryptic gives away FF slots all the time. Probably several times per day. And it doesn't matter. Why? They make their money from keys. Which are $1 each.
We have lockboxes because they make a bunch of money. If FF slots where what made Cryptic oodles of money, lockboxes would never have been introduced to the game in the first place.
The F2P market has unlimited options. Anyone who wants customers has to showcase their NO. 1 assets. In CO's case, it's customization. CO shows people they can have some ATs and then pay 50 flipping dollars for a FF slot. Great selling point there.
Or they could give new players a no-strings-attached FF slot. By the time a person has been fooling around with that slot for a bit, a FF sale would have popped up. And now a $25 FF slot looks awesome. The first thing it does is make Cryptic not look like a bunch of greed scumbags. "You can have the FF slot, but only for a limited time. Sucker." The truth doesn't always matter.
If someone isn't playing the game, then they are never going to buy a 5k FF slot in the first place. And since you can't lose money you never had, Cryptic loses nothing by giving them a FF slot, even if they don't stick around.
Regurgitate the same thing over and over, and I'll just copy/paste again for you.
I could play along and make equally obnoxious and condescending responses like yours, but I'll refrain and just simply disagree. Whatever gives you reassurance that your idea is as good as you think it is.
+1 to Sterga. Or, to give this the obligatory bad car analogy, "I'm sorry, sir, but you have to put down a non-refundable security deposit on a Mustang GT to test drive one. But we can let you test drive this Fiesta with crank windows and no air conditioning."
Jenny, you're so hung up on the value of that free FF slot, you're missing the value of everything else a player can spend Zen on. The entire point of "giving away" one freeform slot is to entice players to buy another freeform slot. Or subscribe and give Cryptic a steady flow of revenue. Or plunk down a significant sum on a lifetime subscription. Or just live on the value-adds like account services, retcons, costumes, auras, and yes, gamblebox keys. Don't worry about the money Cryptic might be leaving on the table by making a freeform slot part of the sunk cost of player acquisition. Worry about the money Cryptic can't get potential players to put on the table in the first place.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Jenny, Im pretty sure I've actually said this exact thing to you on one occation before in the past... and if it wasn't you, well I know it was someone else on these forums...
If you agree with the idea being posted but don't think it will work for whatever reason, which it seems you do to some degree:
Also, I'm not saying all of this because I'm actually against them giving out FF slots for free. If Cryptic decides to, fine, so be it. I'm just making observations on why I don't expect them to be doing it.
Don't focus on tearing apart the suggestion, or shooting it doen because you don't expect it to happen. If you arn't against the idea and simply don't expect it to happen then just leave it at that. State your opinion and move on. If you continue to tear down the idea after that then you either ARE opposed to it or your more interested in trolling than anything else. I don't believe you are interested in trolling this thread.
This is an open public forum, and we are the players not the devs. It is not up to us to determine what is or isn't possible or is and isn't going to happen. It's fine to say that you don't think that it will happen, however it is NOT fine to press that point endlessly. You arn't the only one who does this either, so don't take this personally. I've just had it with how many people on these forums behave as if it is their job to say what will and what won't happen. You are a player just like the rest of us, you do not have that authority. It's an entirely differnt story to reiterate what has actually be stated by the devs, but that's not what is happening here. It is YOUR oppinion that its unlikely to happen, it is NOT the word of any of the devs at this point in time. So long as it has not been ruled out by the actual devs, then your opinion as to if they will or won't do it is of no real importance. This is a discussion about how this may impact the game, it is NOT a discussion about if it will or won't happen so don't make it about that.
Kinda hard to take you seriously saying that I'm acting on some sort of authority with my opinions when your post in a nutshell is telling me "if you don't support the idea, please leave the thread". If you have issue with opposing opinions and disagreements on a public forum, don't guise it as a form of trolling just because you choose to be sensitive about it.
I don't agree with the idea being realistic for Cryptic to take up. Personal observations already made. It is of no consequence to me personally if Cryptic does take it up. If they do, kudos to them and hopefully it works out. I won't lose sleep over it.
I'm not saying to leave the thread, just that if your only real issue is that you don't think it will happen, thats not worth continueing to destroy the idea over. You can express your opinion that it won't happen and then proceed to post support for it, or post actual criticism. Hell I do it all the time, and I've seen many Many people on other forums do the same thing.
Allow me to ask you a simple question:
Do YOU believe this suggestion would benefit the game?
Only looking for your personal view on the topic. Your opinion on if it will happen is of zero consequence and doesn't need to be restated, you've sated it already so leave it behind going forward. That is all I'm saying.
FYI: Real Criticism (and this goes for everyone) is more than just addressing the negatives. Real criticism includes atleast an attempt at productive feedback. Something that many members of these forums rarely do, if ever.
That said, there seem to be a few popular flawed arguments, so I will respond to them again:
...
If someone can come up with some new logical counter argument to this idea, I'd love to debate it. But the same flawed arguments regurgitated over and over and just going to keep getting the same response.
You're not engendering tasteful argument by calling all opposing opinions "flawed arguments." Do you have actual proof that the argument is flawed, or do you just back that with your own opinions of "what's best for the game?" Do you have any practical experience with your way actually being a solid, lucrative path to take with this game?
It seems you have just as much proof to call other people's arguments flawed as anyone has to call yours flawed, because none of your ideas have been put to the test in this game. Armchair marketing and development is easy for anyone.
Biff, technically speaking, free FF slots has actually been tested in the game when the FF Grab Bag event happened. There are even testimonies from people who participated in that event that the accuisition of a free FF slot from the even directly lead to them spending more money on the game, either through other C-store purchases, additional FF slots, subsription, or LTS.
So we actually already have a precident that states giving away free FF slots leads to higher spending. Now, we don't have as much information on this as Cryptic might have gathered durring the event (assuming they actually kept track of such information even). So we dont actually know if this precident is completely accurate or not, just that what little information we actually do have says that there is a positive corrilation.
My memory is fuzzy but I think you're talking about the free grab bag, that you could get like, what, one per account for doing that one mission. That grab bag had a small chance of granting a freeform slot. This was hardly a freeform slot giveaway, it was a grab bag giveaway, and I'm willing to bet that most people who got this free bag did not get a freeform slot out of it. So the sample size of people who got the free freeform slot has to be tiny. You can't gauge how much the game would prosper from this small group of people who may or may not have spent more money on the game on the small chance that they got a freeform slot for free.
Giving a freeform slot away to a small number of the population is hardly the same as giving away a freeform slot to everyone.
Now, if you had hard numbers like, 90% of the people who got a freeform slot for free ended up spending more than 50 bucks on the game directly afterwards, then we could say "yes, this is absolutely a thing you should do, Cryptic." But we don't have that kind of info, and just hand-waving any other arguments as flawed is pompous and nonconstructive. None of us should pretend we know what's good for the game when we don't know the facts.
We have Spinnytop who claims to have gotten 3 FF slots from the event, and proceeded to buy 3 more and has now gone LTS... and I remember getting the bag multiple times... though I wasn't ever lucky enough to get a FF slot from it... or any of the other c-store items that were in the grabbag...
So basically our proof that it's definitely a good idea is some scattered anecdotal tales? Not that I distrust what these people are saying, but I just don't think it's proof enough to dismiss arguments on the other side as flawed. As far as I'm concerned, both sides on this have good points, and this attitude is just putting the brakes on constructive discourse.
A free FF slot seems like a good idea. It would be a great reason to email all of those ATs that left and get some of them back in. That alone might make it a profitable move.
So basically our proof that it's definitely a good idea is some scattered anecdotal tales? Not that I distrust what these people are saying, but I just don't think it's proof enough to dismiss arguments on the other side as flawed. As far as I'm concerned, both sides on this have good points, and this attitude is just putting the brakes on constructive discourse.
I never said it was completely reliable proof... just that it's kinda the only information we actually have on the subject... everything beyond the tiny bit of questionably reliable testimonies from other players is really little more than speculation at this point... Though there is still some reliable basis for the idea as a whole. It's been brought up a few times in the thread already that lots of corporations will give away their products from time to time to promote sales. These give-a-ways have direct correlations to an increase in product sales for them when they occur as well.
When people get to try something that they otherwise wouldn't have bought, they are much more likely to make a purchase of that product. Letting silvers try FF for free in some way, will lead to an increase in FF sales & subscriptions. Giving everyone 1 free FF slot will lead to the same increase & likely lead to a higher retention rate of new players. Giving silver a limited FF will likely lead to that same higher retention rate and depending on how it's done may or may not lead to an increase in sales as well.
If limited FF is an AT replacement and locks you within a singular power set it's unlikely to lead to an increase in sales since at this point thats little more than giving silver's glorified ATs... it might not even actually affect the new player retention rate all that much either...
If limited FF is a "buy & unlock additional powersets" model then it will certainly lead to an increase in sales and depending on how many & which powersets are available for free will lead to a moderate increase in new player retention.
For the record, I'm not thoroughly against any of these ideas, I never said they flat-out wouldn't work. My only problem was labeling any sort of opposition as flawed thinking. I do think SOME sort of free Freeform has some merit, but I'm not going to pretend I have the answers.
I guess people sometimes forget that a FF slot doesn't cost cryptic a dime, compared to a real physical item. so they think that cryptic loses some money by giving away that slot.
Fascinating, but backwards thinking. It actually does cost them money. It cost them money to pay the programmers, artists and engineers to develop those power sets. It costs them money to develop new powers to put into the game. So I don't see where you getting this it doesn't cost them a dime.
If someone gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't buy any more slots, Cryptic didn't lose any money because that person was never going to buy any freeform slots to begin with. No potential sales lost = no loss.
On the other hand, you have the player that didn't even know they wanted twelve different free form characters because they never got a chance to play around with the system. Even if that person only ends up wanting 2 freeform characters, you've given up 50 dollars in potential sales, to get 50 dollars of actual money into your bank account. End result, you made 50 dollars - you didn't lose that first 50 dollars because you would have never made it had you not given that person the first slot for free.
Giving away a freeform slot starts people on a natural pathway toward subscribing. If they realize that they are going to want to make a lot of characters, then they are going to look at the cost effectiveness of buying FF slots compared to subscribing and come to a natural conclusion ( In my case it took me 4 ff slot purchases before I came to that conclusion ).
Sales cannot be losses if they were never going to happen.
Jenny, Im pretty sure I've actually said this exact thing to you on one occation before in the past... and if it wasn't you, well I know it was someone else on these forums...
If you agree with the idea being posted but don't think it will work for whatever reason, which it seems you do to some degree:
Also, I'm not saying all of this because I'm actually against them giving out FF slots for free. If Cryptic decides to, fine, so be it. I'm just making observations on why I don't expect them to be doing it.
Don't focus on tearing apart the suggestion, or shooting it doen because you don't expect it to happen. If you arn't against the idea and simply don't expect it to happen then just leave it at that. State your opinion and move on. If you continue to tear down the idea after that then you either ARE opposed to it or your more interested in trolling than anything else. I don't believe you are interested in trolling this thread.
This is an open public forum, and we are the players not the devs. It is not up to us to determine what is or isn't possible or is and isn't going to happen. It's fine to say that you don't think that it will happen, however it is NOT fine to press that point endlessly. You arn't the only one who does this either, so don't take this personally. I've just had it with how many people on these forums behave as if it is their job to say what will and what won't happen. You are a player just like the rest of us, you do not have that authority. It's an entirely differnt story to reiterate what has actually be stated by the devs, but that's not what is happening here. It is YOUR oppinion that its unlikely to happen, it is NOT the word of any of the devs at this point in time. So long as it has not been ruled out by the actual devs, then your opinion as to if they will or won't do it is of no real importance. This is a discussion about how this may impact the game, it is NOT a discussion about if it will or won't happen so don't make it about that.
I disagree with Jenny all the time. She has the right to disagree with me, and anyone else, as much as she likes though....since it's an open forum. Maybe let her decide if her posts are worth posting?
Also, she's discussing how it will impact the game, in addition to if it will or will not happen. Heck, in a way we're all discussing if it will or will not happen, because we're discussing if it should or should not happen, and the determination of that quality is what determines if it will or will not happen. We all know we're not devs, Jenny knows that too - she's doing the same thing everyone else is: giving their opinion in case a dev is reading this in the hopes of swaying them one way or the other.
You can't win an argument by telling people they're wrong for continuing to disagree with you.
PS - your recent posts make you sound really preachy, like you think you're some sort of authority on "How To Post".
The ony loss i can think of is if someone was going to buy a ff slot and then didnt because he git one free. That person would very probably get another ff slot later though.
The ony loss i can think of is if someone was going to buy a ff slot and then didnt because he git one free.
That person would very probably get another ff slot later though.
There's no assumption that they would. They may or may not. None of us would know that.
I think giving each person ONE freeform slot is a good idea. Would prefer it was folks subscribing, but that's up to Cryptic.
Also there is never a requirement on these forums to provide way to improve a suggestion you don't agree with. That's the entire point of a public forum.
I like this idea. Would've kept me more interested in the game - I played it, once, when it went free-to-play, made an inferno, was terribly disappointed in how squishy* the character was, and quit at around level 21 or so. When CoX died, I decided to get a subscription and give CO another chance - and being able to make freeform characters was what managed to make the game fun for me. If I'd had one freeform slot to start with, I doubt I would've quit in the first place, and I would certainly have subscribed a lot sooner than I did.
*Footnote: I've since made another Inferno - the only AT character I've got - just to see if it was as bad as I remembered. It wasn't. Funny what a difference it makes when you know where the healing items vendor is.
If someone gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't buy any more slots, Cryptic didn't lose any money because that person was never going to buy any freeform slots to begin with. No potential sales lost = no loss.
I'm not sure why, but it has become apparent that some people cannot comprehend that concept. It's been stated many times by this point, yet some people just don't get it.
I guess people sometimes forget that a FF slot doesn't cost cryptic a dime, compared to a real physical item. so they think that cryptic loses some money by giving away that slot.
Fascinating, but backwards thinking. It actually does cost them money.
The development cost for creating and distributing Silver FF slots has already been spent, and, one hopes, made back. Therefore, handing out one free Silver FF slot and one free AT slot (as opposed to the current two AT slots) would not in fact cost Cryptic anything extra, and might cause someone to subscribe (when told that gets them more slots, power colorization, and all the other Gold perks), or at least buy a few things to dress up their FF. If it doesn't, well, odds are good that person wasn't going to spend any money anyway, so still no actual loss.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Ive never tried a ff character. Has the same experience with the inferno. And i still dont lnow where is the healing items vendor lol. There should be a quest to find him in case there isnt one already
Ive never tried a ff character. Has the same experience with the inferno. And i still dont lnow where is the healing items vendor lol.
There should be a quest to find him in case there isnt one already
Not exactly plain, no. It's a fellow named Karneeki the Magnificent, a stage magician standing at one end of the semicircular awning in RenCen. Back in the day, when you left the PH the first mission Defender would give you was to take a tour of RenCen and talk to various personages - find the tailor, speak to SOCRATES, locate the UNTIL terminal, check out the SuperJet, and like that. When the "streamlined" character creator came in (did they ever fix that nonsense?), that mission was removed, which combines with Alert exploiting to give us 40s who have no idea where the SuperJet is nor how to leave MC.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
If someone gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't buy any more slots, Cryptic didn't lose any money because that person was never going to buy any freeform slots to begin with. No potential sales lost = no loss.
I really don't think it's that black and white.
While I think I'm in favor of giving out some sort of freeform freebie, you can't just say that anyone who gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't spend any further money was never going to do so anyway. You can't ever possibly know that, and you can't know how it would affect future sales as a whole.
You're not engendering tasteful argument by calling all opposing opinions "flawed arguments."
I'm not calling ALL opposing opinions "flawed arguments", just the specific flawed arguments I replied to in that post.
The problem is that your only proof that these arguments are flawed is your own opinion, which counts for nothing when you're looking for actual facts to back up your argument.
If someone gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't buy any more slots, Cryptic didn't lose any money because that person was never going to buy any freeform slots to begin with. No potential sales lost = no loss.
I'm not sure why, but it has become apparent that some people cannot comprehend that concept. It's been stated many times by this point, yet some people just don't get it.
So now opposing arguments are flawed and people opposing yours have a lack of comprehension just because they don't agree with your "facts". Just because it's been said over and over doesn't make it true.
I'm gonna go ahead and skedaddle from this conversation because I don't see it going anywhere useful with this kind of behavior. Have fun.
While I think I'm in favor of giving out some sort of freeform freebie, you can't just say that anyone who gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't spend any further money was never going to do so anyway. You can't ever possibly know that, and you can't know how it would affect future sales as a whole.
I agree that we cant really make absolute statements about what a hypothetical person would "never" do. However, we can think logically. If someone isn't playing this game, they aren't spending money on it. Obvious statement is obvious. If Cryptic offers them a free FF slot and gets them to try the game, then the chances of them spending money have just increased. No, the person may not stick around. They may leave without ever spending anything. But we're not just talking about one single person here. Some people who are enticed to try the game will stick around, and some will spend money. The end result is that some people who weren't playing before, and therefore weren't spending money before, are now doing both.
The problem is that your only proof that these arguments are flawed is your own opinion, which counts for nothing when you're looking for actual facts to back up your argument.
I never used the word "proof" or "facts". What I am doing is using logical reasoning to explain why I think this would help the game. And when potential problems are mentioned, I am using logical reasoning to address those. If you disagree with my reasoning, feel free to explain how.
Oh i remember that quest. Its a pity they removed it. I also enjoye the original longer tutorial. I guess it was a bore to some people. Nut at least its skipable
I guess people sometimes forget that a FF slot doesn't cost cryptic a dime, compared to a real physical item. so they think that cryptic loses some money by giving away that slot.
Fascinating, but backwards thinking. It actually does cost them money. It cost them money to pay the programmers, artists and engineers to develop those power sets. It costs them money to develop new powers to put into the game. So I don't see where you getting this it doesn't cost them a dime.
In accounting we were taught to match expenses directly towards the reason they were incurred. Trying to take all the various costs of running your business and applying them to things they were not directly incurred to produce is a no-no. So for example, we would not take the expense of paying programmers to make power sets, and apply it to the expense of producing the FF slot service. No, the only expense we would connect to the FF slot service is those hours we paid someone directly for programming this one service into the game. No wishy washy "but in a way they're connected" stuff flies in accounting ( because that's how you end up on the news ).
So the actual cost of to Cryptic for producing a FF slot was whatever hours someone put into programming it in, and making whatever art assets are directly attached to it ( store icon, if it even has it's own ).
While I think I'm in favor of giving out some sort of freeform freebie, you can't just say that anyone who gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't spend any further money was never going to do so anyway. You can't ever possibly know that, and you can't know how it would affect future sales as a whole.
I agree that we cant really make absolute statements about what a hypothetical person would "never" do. However, we can think logically. If someone isn't playing this game, they aren't spending money on it. Obvious statement is obvious. If Cryptic offers them a free FF slot and gets them to try the game, then the chances of them spending money have just increased. No, the person may not stick around. They may leave without ever spending anything. But we're not just talking about one single person here. Some people who are enticed to try the game will stick around, and some will spend money. The end result is that some people who weren't playing before, and therefore weren't spending money before, are now doing both.
The problem is that your only proof that these arguments are flawed is your own opinion, which counts for nothing when you're looking for actual facts to back up your argument.
I never used the word "proof" or "facts". What I am doing is using logical reasoning to explain why I think this would help the game. And when potential problems are mentioned, I am using logical reasoning to address those. If you disagree with my reasoning, feel free to explain how.
Or they just take the free ff slot, play around with it for a few weeks or a month and then never spend any money.
There is always that possibility. And based on the whole bunch of mmos that went free to play over the years, one could logically argue that mmo gamers of this generation are more used to not spending any money at all in games they play.
For example I have a group of friends who already play numerous mmos where they take advantage of all the free offerings and don't spend a dime in any of those games. Why? Because they don't have to. The games are free to play and give enough away that they aren't missing anything by paying.
Whether Cryptic thinks its a risk worth taking is up to them.
Ive never tried a ff character. Has the same experience with the inferno. And i still dont lnow where is the healing items vendor lol.
There should be a quest to find him in case there isnt one already
Not exactly plain, no. It's a fellow named Karneeki the Magnificent, a stage magician standing at one end of the semicircular awning in RenCen. Back in the day, when you left the PH the first mission Defender would give you was to take a tour of RenCen and talk to various personages - find the tailor, speak to SOCRATES, locate the UNTIL terminal, check out the SuperJet, and like that. When the "streamlined" character creator came in (did they ever fix that nonsense?), that mission was removed, which combines with Alert exploiting to give us 40s who have no idea where the SuperJet is nor how to leave MC.
Also the UNTIL vendors (there's one located in the Recognition Center in MC) sell some very nice buffs including HOT bot (heal over time) patches. They are surprisingly good. You can also purchase resurrection patches from the Silver Recognition rep stand next to her.
While I think I'm in favor of giving out some sort of freeform freebie, you can't just say that anyone who gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't spend any further money was never going to do so anyway. You can't ever possibly know that, and you can't know how it would affect future sales as a whole.
I agree that we cant really make absolute statements about what a hypothetical person would "never" do. However, we can think logically. If someone isn't playing this game, they aren't spending money on it. Obvious statement is obvious. If Cryptic offers them a free FF slot and gets them to try the game, then the chances of them spending money have just increased. No, the person may not stick around. They may leave without ever spending anything. But we're not just talking about one single person here. Some people who are enticed to try the game will stick around, and some will spend money. The end result is that some people who weren't playing before, and therefore weren't spending money before, are now doing both.
The problem is that your only proof that these arguments are flawed is your own opinion, which counts for nothing when you're looking for actual facts to back up your argument.
I never used the word "proof" or "facts". What I am doing is using logical reasoning to explain why I think this would help the game. And when potential problems are mentioned, I am using logical reasoning to address those. If you disagree with my reasoning, feel free to explain how.
Or they just take the free ff slot, play around with it for a few weeks or a month and then never spend any money.
There is always that possibility. And based on the whole bunch of mmos that went free to play over the years, one could logically argue that mmo gamers of this generation are more used to not spending any money at all in games they play.
For example I have a group of friends who already play numerous mmos where they take advantage of all the free offerings and don't spend a dime in any of those games. Why? Because they don't have to. The games are free to play and give enough away that they aren't missing anything by paying.
Whether Cryptic thinks its a risk worth taking is up to them.
I'm not sure why, but for some reason you completely missed the MAIN point of my post: SOME of the new people WILL spend money. OF COURSE some people won't spend money. No one denies that. No one. No. One. But once again, SOME of the new people WILL. And ANY new person spending money is still MORE money than Cryptic had before.
Think about it this way:
Cryptic starts offering 1 free FF slot as suggested and gets 1,000 new people to try the game.
500 of those new people quit without ever spending anything.
400 of those new people stick around, but never spend anything.
100 of those new people stick around, and wind up buying various things they want.
Despite the 900 people who didn't spend anything, the end result is still 100 more people spending money than there were before.
PS: regarding the people who DO stick around but never spend money, they even have a positive effect on the game, because that means more people to play with and faster queues. And the people who ARE spending money are more likely to stick around and keep doing so if there are other people to play with.
If someone gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't buy any more slots, Cryptic didn't lose any money because that person was never going to buy any freeform slots to begin with. No potential sales lost = no loss.
I really don't think it's that black and white.
While I think I'm in favor of giving out some sort of freeform freebie, you can't just say that anyone who gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't spend any further money was never going to do so anyway. You can't ever possibly know that, and you can't know how it would affect future sales as a whole.
We don't use a crystal ball, we use plain old rationality. We actually can say that someone who gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't spend any further money was never going to do so anyway, because they didn't spend any money; we base our assumption on what they did, rather than all the other things they could have done but didn't. They had plenty of opportunity to buy something, and the only time a z-store item ever came into their possession was the time they got one for free. All signs point to the assumption being correct. That's how you do these things when you don't own a crystal ball.
There seems to be a lot of underestimating the power of free.
When I go to Costco, people hover over the person giving out free samples. People who can not only afford to shop there, but also afford the membership to get into the store. And they flock like vultures for some jelly beans or crackers. Stuff they could just buy and sample themselves. Buy hey! Free! Woo!
Companies go F2P because it makes more money. It makes the game accessible to a whole lot more people because it removes the road blocks of buying a game and subbing. Frankly, I like it when companies don't shove "buy me!" in my face. I'd rather spend money because I'm having a bunch of fun and not because my toon feels gimpy if I don't.
Dragon's Prophet isn't a bad game. Flying around on a dragon? That's awesome. But did they ever shove the cash shop in my face from the get go. Never spent a dime on the game. In fact, I didn't even play it that much. I can only imagine that's similar to the new silver player experience. Just seeing all those amazing FF build is a constant reminder of the cash shop. It's not spending money because someone is having fun, it's spending money because the ATs feel gimpy.
If a new player has one FF slot from the start, seeing those FF builds is "hey, I could do that too" instead of "I have to spend money to have a toon that doesn't suck".
I don't agree with giving away the full product for free. A sample would be the way I could agree.
How about every quarter they have a FF week. Load it up with Heirloom gear. Let the players go nuts. After that week the character is locked away. If they want it they can go Gold or buy it.
And lets get really crazy...the week after the FF sample?...put FF slots on sale! You draw them in and you hook them.
We don't use a crystal ball, we use plain old rationality. We actually can say that someone who gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't spend any further money was never going to do so anyway, because they didn't spend any money; we base our assumption on what they did, rather than all the other things they could have done but didn't. They had plenty of opportunity to buy something, and the only time a z-store item ever came into their possession was the time they got one for free. All signs point to the assumption being correct. That's how you do these things when you don't own a crystal ball.
Are you guys leaving out the people who would have spent money but instead didn't because they got what they wanted for free on purpose, or are you just not thinking that it's a possibility? You're basically saying that no one's ever just bought a Freeform slot and left it at that. That's a form of loss.
Until we all have looked at the analytics, we can assume stuff all day long until we're blue in the face, but in the end, we can't really argue what would make more money for the game. Maybe the slots sell like crazy, and giving one away to everyone ends up making them less money because less people will buy them. Maybe it'll affect the prices of Retcon Tokens because now if someone biffs their build at like level 23, they just make a new account and roll up a new character? Who knows what all this could affect, good or bad? The ideas are nice, but acting like we know what's best for the game with such surety is silly.
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Today, I only use those accounts on STO, because #2 has the Fed-Rom Tovan Khev (and his merry crew Tovan Khev2, Tovan Khev3, Rinna Khev, and the Reman engineer Rinna NotKhev, aboard RRW Tovan Khev III) and #3 has Grunt, my main character for fanfic stories on the forums. I haven't touched the extra accounts in CO since creating Major Cleavage, after someone else was forced to rename their Major Cleavage character. (My defense of her, in case it ever comes up, is that that's her name - Maj. Andrea Cleavage, USMC (ret).)
Using multiple accounts is just such a hassle. I can't see anyone making "infinite" accounts for one free FF slot each, especially when if they buy something for one account it's not accessible on any of the others.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I've only been suggesting alternatives due to how vocally opposed a lot of people on this thread have been. And how vocally opposed many of the same people have been every time this topic has come up in the past, even prior to the addition of FF slots. And to be frank, the alternatives I've suggested here are taken out of previous iterations of this very topic. I'm not going to create a new alternative for something that I honestly don't believe needs an alternative, but I will reiterate the alternatives that have been suggested in the past.
Overall, giving everyone 1 FF slot will yield far better results than any of the alternatives ever could.
Trial access, while time tested, often results in players feeling cheated, while it does have a better retention rate than a solid paygate does, it has the side effect of causing players who leave to not want to return, while a solid paygate might see them return to check out a new update or promotional they heard about.
Tester Characters, often called "Teaser Characters" by F2P players, tend to be more of a benefit to premium players as an easily accessible testing ground. While they give you a method of testing out premium benefits, they are severely limited in what they can actually do and as such aren't really a very good showcase.
Loyalty Reward, pretty simple really, most new players have no interest in paying for anything in a "free game". I've had this argument with a close friend of mine time and time again, and she still calls me an idiot for buying an LTS. As time passes they may feel more inclined to buy something, but that's assuming they stick around long enough for that nagging urge to kick in and win out. And when it's something that equates to "buying power" (which FF slots do) it leaves a sour taste in a lot of F2P players mouth when they see any sort of price tag on it without at least getting to try it for free. This includes the "Buy $X worth of ____, get ____ as a 'free' bonus", which is exactly what a Loyalty Reward is.
Limited access, a Limited Freeform system would have been a step in the right direction when CO went F2P, but at this point it's a bit to late for them to do that. That doesn't mean they shouldn't still do it... just that the damage has already been done and making the change now won't fix it. But in terms of new player retention, this would most certainly keep more new players than the current AT system and it would encourage more F2P players to buy power sets off the C-Store. And with any luck encourage Cryptic to develop more power sets for CO.
Limited Time Offer, ABSOLUTELY ONE OF THE WORST OPTIONS. No, I'm dead serious when I say that. In a game that's main draw is customization, locking anything behind limited time barriers is a TERRIBLE IDEA. It only creates a growing sense of resentment, and when a new player comes along and sees someone with something that they can NEVER get they are less likely to stick around, the more and more they see things they can't ever have the more likely they are to leave. Now, I know you're asking "what does that have to do with a limited time freeform slot give-away offer?" Pretty simple really... Unless this is made a regular occurrence (which has it's own problems I'll address in a moment) it's really no different than having never done it to begin with. This is exactly why those free character slots we've gotten a few times haven't created a big problem, their existence changed nothing in the long run. If it is a regular occurrence however, then you run into the problem of long term players grabbing a free slot every time the event comes around and never actually buying anything. If they wanted to just give out some free FF slots without any sort of return, then this is the way to go, but this topic is about promoting growth via free FF slots, and as I just said a limited time offer won't change anything for the better, and at worst it will just create more resentment. We've also already had this happen and with FF slots... as you can see, it had an immediate impact during and shortly after the event, but has had no lasting effect. New players who didn't get to experience it are still just as likely to leave as they were before the event ever happened.
1-time Max level Reward, one of the only alternatives that doesn't have a huge risk of backfire... it just has the downside of most new players don't play all the way to max level before they leave... so this really won't help promote growth since it's rewarded to late in a new players career.
which pretty much just leaves 1 option...
Everyone gets 1 free, yes it can be exploited by the truly determined, but as has been mentioned a thousand times already in this thread and in every previous iteration of this thread, the people who would create multiple accounts just to exploit 1 free slot aren't going to ever spend money in the game to begin with and most likely won't stick around long at all. Additionally, there are numerous account unlocks in the game that new players are not going to be willing to part with just to get a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th free FF slot. To the vast majority of players, keeping all of your characters on 1 account is far more worth it than saving a few bucks, and to any who have actually bought anything already it's FAR FAR more worth it than to buy everything multiple times... Giving everyone 1 free FF slot lets everyone get to experience the full game on at least 1 character, gets them hooked on the customization and increased their odds of buying a subscription or additional FF slots.
One final point... Spinnytop, who from what I have seen in many threads is vehemently opposed to any changes that directly impact the cash shop, is actually SUPPORTING this topic... and their reason? Because the FF grab bag event, way back when, directly resulted in them, and many others, buying more.
besides the 1 free FF slot for everyone, I really like the limited FF. like starting with a few available choices and we could buy ourselves more powersets, I always thought that would be a nice idea and I woul have bought quite a bit already as a silver player. Contrary to rigid ATs which we can't mix and match (I still have bought a few though.)
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
"Giving away something you are currently selling won't make you money"
Here is the thing: if someone ISN'T playing the game, then Cryptic ISN'T making any money from them. If you can grasp that basic fact, let's keep going. If offering someone 1 free FF slot gets them to play the game, and that person only spends ONE dollar, that is still one dollar MORE than Cryptic had before. And realistically speaking, you can't only spend $1; you have to buy zen in quantities of 1k. So if someone starts playing the game and sees something they want, they have to spend a minimum of $10.
"Oh yeah, well $10 is still a lot less than $50!!!"
Learn how to read. If someone ISN'T playing the game, then Cryptic' ISN'T making ANY money from them. So if you can get someone who wasn't spending ANY money to spend $10, that is $10 more than you had before.
"Someone can create unlimited free accounts and get unlimited FF slots"
First of all, there is a natural incentive to only play a single account: account unlocks. If you play multiple accounts, then you lose access to any account unlocks you have purchased on a different account. But let's just say worse case scenario, and someone does create 10 accounts to get 10 FF characters. Chances are, they will still wind up BUYING something on several of those accounts. Whether it is inventory space, a vehicle, costume parts, or anything else, if someone who was spending NO money on this game starts spending ANY money, then that is MORE money then they were spending before.
If someone can come up with some new logical counter argument to this idea, I'd love to debate it. But the same flawed arguments regurgitated over and over and just going to keep getting the same response.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The "manufacturing" cost for the FF slot doesn't really apply since the FF slot isn't a physical product. It's something digital and intangible and the closest description I can think of is similar to that of a VIP / premium service membership access card. Heck, the workhours put into making the slot might be even negligible, but that kind of access service it gives still has value. A one-time lump sum payment to override having to make recurring subscription payment is going to be of significant monetary value. You might disagree with the pricing. I might disagree with it. There are a whole lot of other examples out there we could probably voice our personal opinions about that seem to be priced more than what the quality of those products seem to suggest, but at the end of the day it really boils down whatever internal that goes on within the company that decides the pricing to justify whatever reasons they deem legitimate.
I could assert that it should actually be worth $20 or even $10, you might feel that it should be absolutely free, but ultimately it doesn't matter since we don't have direct control of it. Either we're part of market target of that $50, or we move on to something else to use our money for. Some other people will probably just step into our place and pay up the $50.
The idea of going thru the hassle of making multiple accounts to get more free FF slots might seem ludicrous, and I don't disagree, but that is really besides the point. The invitation to exploit is still there, especially considering that the FF slot still has a hefty 5000 ZEN price tag on it and I doubt Cryptic is ready to hand them out as freebies.
Once again, throwing a 5000 ZEN valued freeform slot at a player doesn't mean they're going to actually spend money at the store. If the player decided within a month or even a week that CO isn't the game for them then it's a $50 investment loss for Cryptic. I don't see how _this_ basic fact always gets ignored. If the player is genuinely interested in what the game has to offer, it's free to play. No monetary commitment needed before hand. It can essentially be looked at as one huge demo. ARC does a fairly good job at explaining why someone who's interested should give it a try. CO's steam profile does the same thing. That's when the player decides to stick around and if they do then the opportunity to spend at the store arises. The only other thing I think that's needed is some advertising, something as basic as small banners. I don't know what the costs involved are like though.
Also, I'm not saying all of this because I'm actually against them giving out FF slots for free. If Cryptic decides to, fine, so be it. I'm just making observations on why I don't expect them to be doing it.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
The only way they don't make a loss is if they already have a commitment from the player to spend on other products or services that Cryptic has. That involves an assurance of a player sticking around. There isn't an assurance of that with what you're suggesting, especially since it's impossible to quantify exactly how many people need to spend money to actually qualify as worthwhile returns. It's too derivative. Fine, if people want to have a taste of what FF is like, I can see putting FF and every other thing gold-related on a 30-day free trial upon creation of a silver account as something reasonable that they can work with.
If someone isn't playing the game, then they are never going to buy a 5k FF slot in the first place. And since you can't lose money you never had, Cryptic loses nothing by giving them a FF slot, even if they don't stick around.
Regurgitate the same thing over and over, and I'll just copy/paste again for you.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I bet Cryptic can tell when someone is making multiple accounts. I know other game companies can. So, if they were concerned over "exploiting" that can already be done, they'd be banning accounts. It could probably be automated too. Doesn't do you any good to have multiple accounts for FF slots if they all get banned.
If Cryptic "loses" money by giving away a single FF slot to new account, that means they are already losing money by giving way Free AT to people who quite the game and never buy anything. Oh, and Cryptic gives away FF slots all the time. Probably several times per day. And it doesn't matter. Why? They make their money from keys. Which are $1 each.
We have lockboxes because they make a bunch of money. If FF slots where what made Cryptic oodles of money, lockboxes would never have been introduced to the game in the first place.
The F2P market has unlimited options. Anyone who wants customers has to showcase their NO. 1 assets. In CO's case, it's customization. CO shows people they can have some ATs and then pay 50 flipping dollars for a FF slot. Great selling point there.
Or they could give new players a no-strings-attached FF slot. By the time a person has been fooling around with that slot for a bit, a FF sale would have popped up. And now a $25 FF slot looks awesome. The first thing it does is make Cryptic not look like a bunch of greed scumbags. "You can have the FF slot, but only for a limited time. Sucker." The truth doesn't always matter.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Jenny, you're so hung up on the value of that free FF slot, you're missing the value of everything else a player can spend Zen on. The entire point of "giving away" one freeform slot is to entice players to buy another freeform slot. Or subscribe and give Cryptic a steady flow of revenue. Or plunk down a significant sum on a lifetime subscription. Or just live on the value-adds like account services, retcons, costumes, auras, and yes, gamblebox keys. Don't worry about the money Cryptic might be leaving on the table by making a freeform slot part of the sunk cost of player acquisition. Worry about the money Cryptic can't get potential players to put on the table in the first place.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
If you agree with the idea being posted but don't think it will work for whatever reason, which it seems you do to some degree: Don't focus on tearing apart the suggestion, or shooting it doen because you don't expect it to happen. If you arn't against the idea and simply don't expect it to happen then just leave it at that. State your opinion and move on. If you continue to tear down the idea after that then you either ARE opposed to it or your more interested in trolling than anything else. I don't believe you are interested in trolling this thread.
This is an open public forum, and we are the players not the devs. It is not up to us to determine what is or isn't possible or is and isn't going to happen. It's fine to say that you don't think that it will happen, however it is NOT fine to press that point endlessly. You arn't the only one who does this either, so don't take this personally. I've just had it with how many people on these forums behave as if it is their job to say what will and what won't happen. You are a player just like the rest of us, you do not have that authority. It's an entirely differnt story to reiterate what has actually be stated by the devs, but that's not what is happening here. It is YOUR oppinion that its unlikely to happen, it is NOT the word of any of the devs at this point in time. So long as it has not been ruled out by the actual devs, then your opinion as to if they will or won't do it is of no real importance. This is a discussion about how this may impact the game, it is NOT a discussion about if it will or won't happen so don't make it about that.
I don't agree with the idea being realistic for Cryptic to take up. Personal observations already made. It is of no consequence to me personally if Cryptic does take it up. If they do, kudos to them and hopefully it works out. I won't lose sleep over it.
Allow me to ask you a simple question:
Do YOU believe this suggestion would benefit the game?
Only looking for your personal view on the topic. Your opinion on if it will happen is of zero consequence and doesn't need to be restated, you've sated it already so leave it behind going forward. That is all I'm saying.
FYI: Real Criticism (and this goes for everyone) is more than just addressing the negatives. Real criticism includes atleast an attempt at productive feedback. Something that many members of these forums rarely do, if ever.
It seems you have just as much proof to call other people's arguments flawed as anyone has to call yours flawed, because none of your ideas have been put to the test in this game. Armchair marketing and development is easy for anyone.
So we actually already have a precident that states giving away free FF slots leads to higher spending. Now, we don't have as much information on this as Cryptic might have gathered durring the event (assuming they actually kept track of such information even). So we dont actually know if this precident is completely accurate or not, just that what little information we actually do have says that there is a positive corrilation.
Giving a freeform slot away to a small number of the population is hardly the same as giving away a freeform slot to everyone.
Now, if you had hard numbers like, 90% of the people who got a freeform slot for free ended up spending more than 50 bucks on the game directly afterwards, then we could say "yes, this is absolutely a thing you should do, Cryptic." But we don't have that kind of info, and just hand-waving any other arguments as flawed is pompous and nonconstructive. None of us should pretend we know what's good for the game when we don't know the facts.
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When people get to try something that they otherwise wouldn't have bought, they are much more likely to make a purchase of that product. Letting silvers try FF for free in some way, will lead to an increase in FF sales & subscriptions. Giving everyone 1 free FF slot will lead to the same increase & likely lead to a higher retention rate of new players. Giving silver a limited FF will likely lead to that same higher retention rate and depending on how it's done may or may not lead to an increase in sales as well.
If limited FF is an AT replacement and locks you within a singular power set it's unlikely to lead to an increase in sales since at this point thats little more than giving silver's glorified ATs... it might not even actually affect the new player retention rate all that much either...
If limited FF is a "buy & unlock additional powersets" model then it will certainly lead to an increase in sales and depending on how many & which powersets are available for free will lead to a moderate increase in new player retention.
anyway it's 4AM I need to go to bed.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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I don't gamble, but there were lucky people who got like three or four slots out of it.
If someone gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't buy any more slots, Cryptic didn't lose any money because that person was never going to buy any freeform slots to begin with. No potential sales lost = no loss.
On the other hand, you have the player that didn't even know they wanted twelve different free form characters because they never got a chance to play around with the system. Even if that person only ends up wanting 2 freeform characters, you've given up 50 dollars in potential sales, to get 50 dollars of actual money into your bank account. End result, you made 50 dollars - you didn't lose that first 50 dollars because you would have never made it had you not given that person the first slot for free.
Giving away a freeform slot starts people on a natural pathway toward subscribing. If they realize that they are going to want to make a lot of characters, then they are going to look at the cost effectiveness of buying FF slots compared to subscribing and come to a natural conclusion ( In my case it took me 4 ff slot purchases before I came to that conclusion ).
Sales cannot be losses if they were never going to happen.
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Also, she's discussing how it will impact the game, in addition to if it will or will not happen. Heck, in a way we're all discussing if it will or will not happen, because we're discussing if it should or should not happen, and the determination of that quality is what determines if it will or will not happen. We all know we're not devs, Jenny knows that too - she's doing the same thing everyone else is: giving their opinion in case a dev is reading this in the hopes of swaying them one way or the other.
You can't win an argument by telling people they're wrong for continuing to disagree with you.
PS - your recent posts make you sound really preachy, like you think you're some sort of authority on "How To Post".
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
That person would very probably get another ff slot later though.
I think giving each person ONE freeform slot is a good idea. Would prefer it was folks subscribing, but that's up to Cryptic.
Also there is never a requirement on these forums to provide way to improve a suggestion you don't agree with. That's the entire point of a public forum.
*Footnote: I've since made another Inferno - the only AT character I've got - just to see if it was as bad as I remembered. It wasn't. Funny what a difference it makes when you know where the healing items vendor is.
I'm not sure why, but it has become apparent that some people cannot comprehend that concept. It's been stated many times by this point, yet some people just don't get it.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
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- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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While I think I'm in favor of giving out some sort of freeform freebie, you can't just say that anyone who gets a freeform slot for free and doesn't spend any further money was never going to do so anyway. You can't ever possibly know that, and you can't know how it would affect future sales as a whole. The problem is that your only proof that these arguments are flawed is your own opinion, which counts for nothing when you're looking for actual facts to back up your argument. So now opposing arguments are flawed and people opposing yours have a lack of comprehension just because they don't agree with your "facts". Just because it's been said over and over doesn't make it true.
I'm gonna go ahead and skedaddle from this conversation because I don't see it going anywhere useful with this kind of behavior. Have fun.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
So the actual cost of to Cryptic for producing a FF slot was whatever hours someone put into programming it in, and making whatever art assets are directly attached to it ( store icon, if it even has it's own ).
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There is always that possibility. And based on the whole bunch of mmos that went free to play over the years, one could logically argue that mmo gamers of this generation are more used to not spending any money at all in games they play.
For example I have a group of friends who already play numerous mmos where they take advantage of all the free offerings and don't spend a dime in any of those games. Why? Because they don't have to. The games are free to play and give enough away that they aren't missing anything by paying.
Whether Cryptic thinks its a risk worth taking is up to them.
I'm not sure why, but for some reason you completely missed the MAIN point of my post: SOME of the new people WILL spend money. OF COURSE some people won't spend money. No one denies that. No one. No. One. But once again, SOME of the new people WILL. And ANY new person spending money is still MORE money than Cryptic had before.
Think about it this way:
Despite the 900 people who didn't spend anything, the end result is still 100 more people spending money than there were before.
PS: regarding the people who DO stick around but never spend money, they even have a positive effect on the game, because that means more people to play with and faster queues. And the people who ARE spending money are more likely to stick around and keep doing so if there are other people to play with.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
When I go to Costco, people hover over the person giving out free samples. People who can not only afford to shop there, but also afford the membership to get into the store. And they flock like vultures for some jelly beans or crackers. Stuff they could just buy and sample themselves. Buy hey! Free! Woo!
Companies go F2P because it makes more money. It makes the game accessible to a whole lot more people because it removes the road blocks of buying a game and subbing. Frankly, I like it when companies don't shove "buy me!" in my face. I'd rather spend money because I'm having a bunch of fun and not because my toon feels gimpy if I don't.
Dragon's Prophet isn't a bad game. Flying around on a dragon? That's awesome. But did they ever shove the cash shop in my face from the get go. Never spent a dime on the game. In fact, I didn't even play it that much. I can only imagine that's similar to the new silver player experience. Just seeing all those amazing FF build is a constant reminder of the cash shop. It's not spending money because someone is having fun, it's spending money because the ATs feel gimpy.
If a new player has one FF slot from the start, seeing those FF builds is "hey, I could do that too" instead of "I have to spend money to have a toon that doesn't suck".
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
How about every quarter they have a FF week. Load it up with Heirloom gear. Let the players go nuts. After that week the character is locked away. If they want it they can go Gold or buy it.
And lets get really crazy...the week after the FF sample?...put FF slots on sale! You draw them in and you hook them.
Just another opinion.
Until we all have looked at the analytics, we can assume stuff all day long until we're blue in the face, but in the end, we can't really argue what would make more money for the game. Maybe the slots sell like crazy, and giving one away to everyone ends up making them less money because less people will buy them. Maybe it'll affect the prices of Retcon Tokens because now if someone biffs their build at like level 23, they just make a new account and roll up a new character? Who knows what all this could affect, good or bad? The ideas are nice, but acting like we know what's best for the game with such surety is silly.