I still say and am willing to advocate for Starship Interiors. A lot of other games have personal housing for player characters. STO could use it, too, but using Starship Interiors as player housing. Base it on the Fleet Starbase/Holding model and scale it down for the single player. It could work long-term, if it's released deck by deck. Make it customizable enough that players can buy "furnishings" with Zen, Lobi, Dilithium, EC, and GPL options. Cryptic had said that Starship Interiors was something they had wanted to do, if they had the time. Maybe DECA could pick up the challenge.
EDIT: Yes, I am aware that Starship Interiors is an FCT topic, as someone kindly pointed out to me. I did write the current FCT. 😏 Thank you for that, by the way. I do appreciate it.😊 I'm not trying to start a conversation or a thread on the idea. I was just throwing my 2EC into the arena on possible Dilithium sink solutions.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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I read just about every post, decent read. My take is dil is a free resource that can be "farmed" from players who create 60+ accounts. I used that number because i was astounded about the dedication to log 60 toons in and out once a day, let alone the acquisition of all those toons to have enough dill to refine. New zen on the other hand is only generated by a player spending money, which isn't free and requires a much different effort than logging in 60 toons. So the result is rather simple, you have way more players farming dil and much fewer players exchanging their cash for a free resource. All the zen holder has to do is create more toons and now they have stock piles of dil and no need to exchange it. I always thought the dil market was a bit niche, the driving factor of the market is patients, or a lack of. I honestly don't know if you can fix something that is lop sided to begin with.
If we were to see a new fleet holding or housing system as some kind of dilithium sink, I would hope they might also consider removing the need to enlist the co-operation of other players to create a new fleet too.
At this point, with many fleets completed and presumably fewer new fleets being created now compared to the old days, encouraging more of them might partly regenerate some of the long-term dilithium impact fleets had when they were new. I would guess there are more people nowadays with large numbers of alts compared to back then too. It strikes me they are more likely to progress a new fleet's holdings more than enlisting other players who may not want to stay or be interested in actively donating. Also, I wouldn't imagine making this change would involve too much time or work to bring it about.
My 26 toons are in completed or nearly completed fleets, and all have oodles of resources I could donate and are also at the maximum fleet credit limit. I'm not inclined to use Armada fleets or jump ship to a lower level fleet when I won't receive anything for donating to someone else's fleet yet again. It would be nice to bring my toons together under one Fed & KDF roof of my own. As it is, I'll probably just stay where I am and keep amassing resources.
If we were to see a new fleet holding or housing system as some kind of dilithium sink, I would hope they might also consider removing the need to enlist the co-operation of other players to create a new fleet too.
At this point, with many fleets completed and presumably fewer new fleets being created now compared to the old days, encouraging more of them might partly regenerate some of the long-term dilithium impact fleets had when they were new. I would guess there are more people nowadays with large numbers of alts compared to back then too. It strikes me they are more likely to progress a new fleet's holdings more than enlisting other players who may not want to stay or be interested in actively donating. Also, I wouldn't imagine making this change would involve too much time or work to bring it about.
My 26 toons are in completed or nearly completed fleets, and all have oodles of resources I could donate and are also at the maximum fleet credit limit. I'm not inclined to use Armada fleets or jump ship to a lower level fleet when I won't receive anything for donating to someone else's fleet yet again. It would be nice to bring my toons together under one Fed & KDF roof of my own. As it is, I'll probably just stay where I am and keep amassing resources.
Creating a personal holding would be potentially far more effective than any new fleet holding because everyone could build on it on their own, not just those in a fleet. It would also mean that those who won't contribute in a fleet won't be holding everyone back or freeloading and waiting until the required holding is built before they buy whatever.
As for not donating to other fleets, you absolutely DO get fleet credits, at the exact same rate, when you donate to others in your armada and it's not like they have something your fleet doesn't if you are at max already.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
Creating a personal holding would be potentially far more effective than any new fleet holding because everyone could build on it on their own, not just those in a fleet. It would also mean that those who won't contribute in a fleet won't be holding everyone back or freeloading and waiting until the required holding is built before they buy whatever.
As for not donating to other fleets, you absolutely DO get fleet credits, at the exact same rate, when you donate to others in your armada and it's not like they have something your fleet doesn't if you are at max already.
Yeah, a new holding that everyone has access to would be preferable. I was just thinking in the event of it being fleet based.
Oh, and I know donating to armada fleets gives fleet credits too and have done many times in the past. What I meant was I'm at the maximum 10m fleet credits on most characters, so donating isn't now any benefit in terms of more. I either have to spend some to make room for more or the maximum needs increasing. The trouble is, I pretty much have all the fleet gear I feel is worthwhile. Maybe I can find a few more odds and sods to buy though.
Creating a personal holding would be potentially far more effective than any new fleet holding because everyone could build on it on their own, not just those in a fleet. It would also mean that those who won't contribute in a fleet won't be holding everyone back or freeloading and waiting until the required holding is built before they buy whatever.
As for not donating to other fleets, you absolutely DO get fleet credits, at the exact same rate, when you donate to others in your armada and it's not like they have something your fleet doesn't if you are at max already.
Yeah, a new holding that everyone has access to would be preferable. I was just thinking in the event of it being fleet based.
Oh, and I know donating to armada fleets gives fleet credits too and have done many times in the past. What I meant was I'm at the maximum 10m fleet credits on most characters, so donating isn't now any benefit in terms of more. I either have to spend some to make room for more or the maximum needs increasing. The trouble is, I pretty much have all the fleet gear I feel is worthwhile. Maybe I can find a few more odds and sods to buy though.
Ten million fleet credits is a lot. The idea is to use excess fleet credits to purchase fleet doffs for fleet projects and then, later in a fleet's life cycle, use more excess fleet credits to help fill things like fleet Research Lab boost projects that benefit all members.
I like the idea of more cosmetic based sort of holdings whether it be housing, ship interiors, or whatever. Colony worlds needed about $1800 worth of dilithium to complete and I think it's going to be challenging to recreate that sort of sink effect.
Custom wall coverings would probably need to start at $100 per room. Things like house plants and water fountains would require even more dilithium. An item like a rare painting might go for several hundred dollars in dilithium. But it would take years of doing the basics (foundation, framing, electrical, plumbing, etc) just to get to that point.
A global server wide sort of holding sounds wonderful as it makes dilithium donations somebody else's problem.
There would probably be a lot of threads here in the forum about how to inspire players to donate more of it.
It might be easier if players just accepted that the dilex is fully functional and that waiting a few weeks for a dil to Zen order is nothing more than an inconvenience.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
It might be easier if players just accepted that the dilex is fully functional and that waiting a few weeks for a dil to Zen order is nothing more than an inconvenience.
Well... no one is disputing that its still functional. But even Cryptic said in the past the current Status Quo is not to even THEIR liking. I think they liked it better when orders were filled instantly because it meant things were moving.
And I had heard some horror stories about Neverwinter's Astral Diamond Exchange taking upwards of six MONTHS a few years ago. I don't know how accurate that is, but their exchange was far more lopsided than ours for sure.
I think we all would prefer the Exchange to be more in balance and transactions occuring faster.
Creating a personal holding would be potentially far more effective than any new fleet holding because everyone could build on it on their own, not just those in a fleet. It would also mean that those who won't contribute in a fleet won't be holding everyone back or freeloading and waiting until the required holding is built before they buy whatever.
As for not donating to other fleets, you absolutely DO get fleet credits, at the exact same rate, when you donate to others in your armada and it's not like they have something your fleet doesn't if you are at max already.
Yeah, a new holding that everyone has access to would be preferable. I was just thinking in the event of it being fleet based.
Oh, and I know donating to armada fleets gives fleet credits too and have done many times in the past. What I meant was I'm at the maximum 10m fleet credits on most characters, so donating isn't now any benefit in terms of more. I either have to spend some to make room for more or the maximum needs increasing. The trouble is, I pretty much have all the fleet gear I feel is worthwhile. Maybe I can find a few more odds and sods to buy though.
Ten million fleet credits is a lot. The idea is to use excess fleet credits to purchase fleet doffs for fleet projects and then, later in a fleet's life cycle, use more excess fleet credits to help fill things like fleet Research Lab boost projects that benefit all members.
I like the idea of more cosmetic based sort of holdings whether it be housing, ship interiors, or whatever. Colony worlds needed about $1800 worth of dilithium to complete and I think it's going to be challenging to recreate that sort of sink effect.
Custom wall coverings would probably need to start at $100 per room. Things like house plants and water fountains would require even more dilithium. An item like a rare painting might go for several hundred dollars in dilithium. But it would take years of doing the basics (foundation, framing, electrical, plumbing, etc) just to get to that point.
A global server wide sort of holding sounds wonderful as it makes dilithium donations somebody else's problem.
There would probably be a lot of threads here in the forum about how to inspire players to donate more of it.
It might be easier if players just accepted that the dilex is fully functional and that waiting a few weeks for a dil to Zen order is nothing more than an inconvenience.
As wonderful as a global server wide holding sounds, there will be plenty thinking 'it makes dilithium donations somebody else's problem'.....which is the problem. You'll still have plenty of 'why should I donate my well-earned Dil?' hoarders and those who won't buy Dil with Zen for the global project. It will have some impact, but not as much as personal holdings, but your pricing for personal holdings is a bit 'doolally'. Whilst it should be 'pricy' it should not be requiring a mortgage nor take years on years to complete (like T5 holdings).
At an educated guess, there would be more people who would work on their own 'vanity' project than a global one for which they have no obligation to contribute to, but will still gain the benefits.....unless there is a Global Holding Credits system like the Fleet Credits system, but everything is locked behind it so folk MUST contribute.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
It might be easier if players just accepted that the dilex is fully functional and that waiting a few weeks for a dil to Zen order is nothing more than an inconvenience.
Well... no one is disputing that its still functional. But even Cryptic said in the past the current Status Quo is not to even THEIR liking. I think they liked it better when orders were filled instantly because it meant things were moving.
I'd love to see the dilex instantly process all orders with rates around 250 dil per Zen.
And I had heard some horror stories about Neverwinter's Astral Diamond Exchange taking upwards of six MONTHS a few years ago. I don't know how accurate that is, but their exchange was far more lopsided than ours for sure.
Thank goodness OUR exchange isn't like that.
I think we all would prefer the Exchange to be more in balance and transactions occuring faster.
Well, I guess it'd be nice.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
I'd love to see the dilex instantly process all orders with rates around 250 dil per Zen.
Yea... although I think at this point the goldilocks zone for balance is probably around 300-350/1. 250 would be awesome. Anything below that is at this point a godly dream the likes we haven't seen since everyone was working on the Fleet Starbases. (I even remember we hit 87/1 at one point. Those were the days, even if sources for DL were scarce.)
I still say and am willing to advocate for Starship Interiors. A lot of other games have personal housing for player characters. STO could use it, too, but using Starship Interiors as player housing. Base it on the Fleet Starbase/Holding model and scale it down for the single player. It could work long-term, if it's released deck by deck. Make it customizable enough that players can buy "furnishings" with Zen, Lobi, Dilithium, EC, and GPL options. Cryptic had said that Starship Interiors was something they had wanted to do, if they had the time. Maybe DECA could pick up the challenge.
EDIT: Yes, I am aware that Starship Interiors is an FCT topic, as someone kindly pointed out to me. I did write the current FCT. 😏 Thank you for that, by the way. I do appreciate it.😊 I'm not trying to start a conversation or a thread on the idea. I was just throwing my 2EC into the arena on possible Dilithium sink solutions.
The biggest issue with adding complicated new content sinks... is the developers. I know Cryptic is on the way out and we don't really know DECA. The issue is simple though if they add new content they will add new ZEN sinks they won't be able to help themselves. The chances of them adding a new system and not somehow incorporating a zen purchase are very low. So more then likely a new system like that would end up being the opposite of what anyone would hope for.
I still say and am willing to advocate for Starship Interiors. A lot of other games have personal housing for player characters. STO could use it, too, but using Starship Interiors as player housing. Base it on the Fleet Starbase/Holding model and scale it down for the single player. It could work long-term, if it's released deck by deck. Make it customizable enough that players can buy "furnishings" with Zen, Lobi, Dilithium, EC, and GPL options. Cryptic had said that Starship Interiors was something they had wanted to do, if they had the time. Maybe DECA could pick up the challenge.
EDIT: Yes, I am aware that Starship Interiors is an FCT topic, as someone kindly pointed out to me. I did write the current FCT. 😏 Thank you for that, by the way. I do appreciate it.😊 I'm not trying to start a conversation or a thread on the idea. I was just throwing my 2EC into the arena on possible Dilithium sink solutions.
The biggest issue with adding complicated new content sinks... is the developers. I know Cryptic is on the way out and we don't really know DECA. The issue is simple though if they add new content they will add new ZEN sinks they won't be able to help themselves. The chances of them adding a new system and not somehow incorporating a zen purchase are very low. So more then likely a new system like that would end up being the opposite of what anyone would hope for.
Yeah, I addressed that in my proposal. But also given that Zen and Dilithium are interchangeable, a Dilithium sink can also be a Zen sink. If DECA were to take up the idea of personal holdings, player housing, Starship Interiors, they'd be foolish not to use the tech already in place in the form of Fleet Starbases to base it on, which uses Dilithium.
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None of these suggestions will work to fix the exchange like people want. As one person noted there are a huge number of accounts that have the max number of characters that solely exist for farming dilithium. Once you create a worthwhile dilithium sink, these types of accounts will still bury the exchange. Any time you inject more currency into a market without controls, you end up with inflation.
For me personally, I vastly prefer the zen market where I can get maximum value for my real money. I would never use the exchange unless the exchange had capped. I remember when the zen market had a pathetic exchange rate and wondered why anyone would just basically give away their money for a free (if somewhat time gated) resource.
A better way to approach this would be from the zen side. If you want to encourage people to inject money (zen) into the exchange then raise the cap. Raising the cap can help relieve pressure, but this alone will only take you so far. Rewarding players for dropping zen into the exchange will also help. Try introducing special account bound coupons for the zen store or offering bonuses with milestones that increase as that player puts more money into the exchange. More zen sales would be good too.
I think that the time that dilithium sinks being useful for fixing the issue are long past without completely trashing the experience for newer players.
None of these suggestions will work to fix the exchange like people want. As one person noted there are a huge number of accounts that have the max number of characters that solely exist for farming dilithium. Once you create a worthwhile dilithium sink, these types of accounts will still bury the exchange. Any time you inject more currency into a market without controls, you end up with inflation.
For me personally, I vastly prefer the zen market where I can get maximum value for my real money. I would never use the exchange unless the exchange had capped. I remember when the zen market had a pathetic exchange rate and wondered why anyone would just basically give away their money for a free (if somewhat time gated) resource.
A better way to approach this would be from the zen side. If you want to encourage people to inject money (zen) into the exchange then raise the cap. Raising the cap can help relieve pressure, but this alone will only take you so far. Rewarding players for dropping zen into the exchange will also help. Try introducing special account bound coupons for the zen store or offering bonuses with milestones that increase as that player puts more money into the exchange. More zen sales would be good too.
I think that the time that dilithium sinks being useful for fixing the issue are long past without completely trashing the experience for newer players.
They tried raising the cap on the Neverwinter equivalent of the dil/zen exchange, it got it moving for something like a whole four hours before it jammed at the cap again.
Besides, from the dil end of the exchange, 500 is about all that almost anyone except for those extreme dil farmers are willing to pay for one zen anyway so even if the cap is completely removed it would probably not get the Exchange moving much for long.
None of these suggestions will work to fix the exchange like people want. As one person noted there are a huge number of accounts that have the max number of characters that solely exist for farming dilithium. Once you create a worthwhile dilithium sink, these types of accounts will still bury the exchange. Any time you inject more currency into a market without controls, you end up with inflation.
For me personally, I vastly prefer the zen market where I can get maximum value for my real money. I would never use the exchange unless the exchange had capped. I remember when the zen market had a pathetic exchange rate and wondered why anyone would just basically give away their money for a free (if somewhat time gated) resource.
A better way to approach this would be from the zen side. If you want to encourage people to inject money (zen) into the exchange then raise the cap. Raising the cap can help relieve pressure, but this alone will only take you so far. Rewarding players for dropping zen into the exchange will also help. Try introducing special account bound coupons for the zen store or offering bonuses with milestones that increase as that player puts more money into the exchange. More zen sales would be good too.
I think that the time that dilithium sinks being useful for fixing the issue are long past without completely trashing the experience for newer players.
This 100% absolutely will not work, because in your own words, you won't buy until the Dil-Ex is capped, which will happen in a matter of hours without a contiguous Dil Sink. This attitude is part of the problem, not the solution. This does not help Dil-Zen trades and certainly isn't 'fair trade'.
Here's what will happen:
Cap gets increased to 600:1.
You immediately start listing 600:1
All the offers at 500:1 sit there until some buckle and agree to your price of 600:1
Trades slow down even more because players don't want to wait even longer to get a further reduced payback on their Dil.
It's resource economics 101. If there's no incentive to buy, bar at the lowest price possible, then the economy is biased and broken. This is what happens when large-scale companies force the price down in promise of shifting higher volumes and the smaller companies barely makes profit.
Contiguous Dil sinks do work and the game proves it time and again with the Fleet system. A new Fleet holding, a new Global holding and a personal holding will get the Dil-Ex moving and healthy again, because then you have a reason to buy Dil, which will reduce the glut.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
Exactly. Its Supply and Demand. We have the Dilithium Supply, but no Demand. The only thing raising the cap on the DL Exchange will do... is push the DL Exchange further into a broken state because no one will be willing to use it at all.
Again people need to feel encouraged to use it. People should WANT to use it. And it goes both ways. Both the Zen Sellers and Dilithium Sellers should feel encouraged to use it. You need both for the DL Exchange to function. If you make it so lopsided that one side feels they are getting nothing out of it, then it will cease to function at all. So this proposal of raising the Exchange Cap...would not only do NOTHING to help the Exchange get moving faster, it will make everyone who trades Dilithium for Zen less likely to use it because they're having to work harder for less return. As leemwatson said, the solution is not to cater to greed, its to provide sufficient Demand for Dilithium to get the economy balanced again. If you provide a Demand for Dilithium, the market will move, and orders will be filled faster than they are now.
The devs have also already stated that they will NOT be raising the Dilithium cap to deal with the Exchange issue, so y'all can put that idea to rest.
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There are a bunch of old useless ships (bad seats, bad console and a bad trait), on the zen store, the lobi and promo box which to be honest if someone buys them its a waste of resources.
One example for dill sink would be to turn these old ships which nobody wants into direct Dill buy
Promo ship costs roughly 100keys which is roughly 10000 zen which is maybe a 5000000 dill price tag
Zen T6 is 1500000
Zen T5 is 1000000
Lobi is 1000000
or maybe do slightly cheaper so it doesn't feel like you are paying premium in dill for junk.
Someone with great ship knowledge should make the decision which ships are junk and should be moved into that vendor.
I still say and am willing to advocate for Starship Interiors. A lot of other games have personal housing for player characters. STO could use it, too, but using Starship Interiors as player housing. Base it on the Fleet Starbase/Holding model and scale it down for the single player. It could work long-term, if it's released deck by deck. Make it customizable enough that players can buy "furnishings" with Zen, Lobi, Dilithium, EC, and GPL options. Cryptic had said that Starship Interiors was something they had wanted to do, if they had the time. Maybe DECA could pick up the challenge.
EDIT: Yes, I am aware that Starship Interiors is an FCT topic, as someone kindly pointed out to me. I did write the current FCT. 😏 Thank you for that, by the way. I do appreciate it.😊 I'm not trying to start a conversation or a thread on the idea. I was just throwing my 2EC into the arena on possible Dilithium sink solutions.
The biggest issue with adding complicated new content sinks... is the developers. I know Cryptic is on the way out and we don't really know DECA. The issue is simple though if they add new content they will add new ZEN sinks they won't be able to help themselves. The chances of them adding a new system and not somehow incorporating a zen purchase are very low. So more then likely a new system like that would end up being the opposite of what anyone would hope for.
Yeah, I addressed that in my proposal. But also given that Zen and Dilithium are interchangeable, a Dilithium sink can also be a Zen sink. If DECA were to take up the idea of personal holdings, player housing, Starship Interiors, they'd be foolish not to use the tech already in place in the form of Fleet Starbases to base it on, which uses Dilithium.
I agree... clearly a dill sink is a zen sink. Its just not as immediate on their books. I am not sure Cryptic was ever in a place where they could afford to sink capital into a system were the return wasn't instantly realized. They were always scrambling and in the end it still didn't save the company.
DECA guess we don't know yet. I believe it would be in their best interest to add a system like you suggest and make it all purple rock spend. It should reduce the purple rock supply and eventually feed the game more Zen purchases. If they are under the gun to make numbers every quarter the way Cryptic was I don't see it happening. Hopefully DECA is in a better position... they do seem to be Embracers go to old game milker... hopefully that means they have some more room to do what needs done.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
Someone with great ship knowledge should make the decision which ships are junk and should be moved into that vendor.
Big problem with that line of thought.
"One man's trash is another man's treasure".
You ask 50 people what they think is a good ship, you'll most likely get 50 different answers. What makes a ship good is subject to a player's particular playstyle. Anyone who says "X is the absolute best ever" is giving their opinion. Stats are one thing. Personal preference is another. Not only that, but you can give someone the most synergized build in the history of synergized builds, but if they don't know how to USE it, that ship is going to perform badly even if it is "the best ship in the game" statistically.
I had also suggested at one point to put the old retired T5 Lockbox ships in the Phoenix Box. That could eat up some Dilithium for people interested in collecting them.
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Big problem with that line of thought.
"One man's trash is another man's treasure".
Its a good thing too, because the purpose of that vendor is to be a dill sink and Its not like its free, you still have to pay the price of it but in dill.
ah forgot, ships from that vendor should be bound to account
It might be easier if players just accepted that the dilex is fully functional and that waiting a few weeks for a dil to Zen order is nothing more than an inconvenience.
Well... no one is disputing that its still functional. But even Cryptic said in the past the current Status Quo is not to even THEIR liking. I think they liked it better when orders were filled instantly because it meant things were moving.
And I had heard some horror stories about Neverwinter's Astral Diamond Exchange taking upwards of six MONTHS a few years ago. I don't know how accurate that is, but their exchange was far more lopsided than ours for sure.
I think we all would prefer the Exchange to be more in balance and transactions occuring faster.
It all boils down to Econ 101, which a lot of people in this thread have not taken or passed it seems. Since there are not enough sinks (demand) reducing the supply is the only long term answer that will work. yes it sucks, but there is going to be pain somewhere.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
I never took Economy 101, but I know about Supply and Demand. We really do need more demand to work through the supply.
Frankly, artificial caps only TRIBBLE up markets. If you don't like dil being over 500 per zen, then fix the reason that is happening and not just stop the market from moving. Markets only do what they do naturally, there isn't anything nefarious about it.
Remove the cap, market demand is obviously not favoring it.
~Megamind@Sobekeus
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
Removing the cap will not solve the issue. It will just break it even more to the point that no one will be willing to use it. How long before it rests at like 50k/1 if the cap is removed?
The solution is to generate DEMAND for Dilithium. Give something that needs Dilithium to drive the market that people want to interact with. The only thing removing the cap will do with the current environment is make the DL Exchange totally unusable.
Removing the cap will not solve the issue. It will just break it even more to the point that no one will be willing to use it. How long before it rests at like 50k/1 if the cap is removed?
The solution is to generate DEMAND for Dilithium. Give something that needs Dilithium to drive the market that people want to interact with. The only thing removing the cap will do with the current environment is make the DL Exchange totally unusable.
Stalling the market by trying to price fix it is not a solution. The price of dil in china is not arbitrary. I already said market caps are not the solution, and merely capping it is hiding from the solution while making the problem worse. Fleet holdings were a great move toward making a massive dil sink, but that wave is pretty much over.
If dil gets to 50k/1, then that's what the market does. Trying to control the market only breaks the market. It's a fool's errand.
The inflation of dil is not going to go away just because you want it to. So uncap the market, let it do what it is supposed to do. Fix the problem the right way.
~Megamind@Sobekeus
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
Removing the cap will NOT solve the problem of no Dilithium DEMAND. We need Demand to balance with the Supply.
The devs have already said that they're not raising/removing the Dilithium cap. It's an FCT topic. You can get off your soap box.
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EDIT: Yes, I am aware that Starship Interiors is an FCT topic, as someone kindly pointed out to me. I did write the current FCT. 😏 Thank you for that, by the way. I do appreciate it.😊 I'm not trying to start a conversation or a thread on the idea. I was just throwing my 2EC into the arena on possible Dilithium sink solutions.
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At this point, with many fleets completed and presumably fewer new fleets being created now compared to the old days, encouraging more of them might partly regenerate some of the long-term dilithium impact fleets had when they were new. I would guess there are more people nowadays with large numbers of alts compared to back then too. It strikes me they are more likely to progress a new fleet's holdings more than enlisting other players who may not want to stay or be interested in actively donating. Also, I wouldn't imagine making this change would involve too much time or work to bring it about.
My 26 toons are in completed or nearly completed fleets, and all have oodles of resources I could donate and are also at the maximum fleet credit limit. I'm not inclined to use Armada fleets or jump ship to a lower level fleet when I won't receive anything for donating to someone else's fleet yet again. It would be nice to bring my toons together under one Fed & KDF roof of my own. As it is, I'll probably just stay where I am and keep amassing resources.
Creating a personal holding would be potentially far more effective than any new fleet holding because everyone could build on it on their own, not just those in a fleet. It would also mean that those who won't contribute in a fleet won't be holding everyone back or freeloading and waiting until the required holding is built before they buy whatever.
As for not donating to other fleets, you absolutely DO get fleet credits, at the exact same rate, when you donate to others in your armada and it's not like they have something your fleet doesn't if you are at max already.
Oh, and I know donating to armada fleets gives fleet credits too and have done many times in the past. What I meant was I'm at the maximum 10m fleet credits on most characters, so donating isn't now any benefit in terms of more. I either have to spend some to make room for more or the maximum needs increasing. The trouble is, I pretty much have all the fleet gear I feel is worthwhile. Maybe I can find a few more odds and sods to buy though.
Ten million fleet credits is a lot. The idea is to use excess fleet credits to purchase fleet doffs for fleet projects and then, later in a fleet's life cycle, use more excess fleet credits to help fill things like fleet Research Lab boost projects that benefit all members.
I like the idea of more cosmetic based sort of holdings whether it be housing, ship interiors, or whatever. Colony worlds needed about $1800 worth of dilithium to complete and I think it's going to be challenging to recreate that sort of sink effect.
Custom wall coverings would probably need to start at $100 per room. Things like house plants and water fountains would require even more dilithium. An item like a rare painting might go for several hundred dollars in dilithium. But it would take years of doing the basics (foundation, framing, electrical, plumbing, etc) just to get to that point.
A global server wide sort of holding sounds wonderful as it makes dilithium donations somebody else's problem.
There would probably be a lot of threads here in the forum about how to inspire players to donate more of it.
It might be easier if players just accepted that the dilex is fully functional and that waiting a few weeks for a dil to Zen order is nothing more than an inconvenience.
Well... no one is disputing that its still functional. But even Cryptic said in the past the current Status Quo is not to even THEIR liking. I think they liked it better when orders were filled instantly because it meant things were moving.
And I had heard some horror stories about Neverwinter's Astral Diamond Exchange taking upwards of six MONTHS a few years ago. I don't know how accurate that is, but their exchange was far more lopsided than ours for sure.
I think we all would prefer the Exchange to be more in balance and transactions occuring faster.
As wonderful as a global server wide holding sounds, there will be plenty thinking 'it makes dilithium donations somebody else's problem'.....which is the problem. You'll still have plenty of 'why should I donate my well-earned Dil?' hoarders and those who won't buy Dil with Zen for the global project. It will have some impact, but not as much as personal holdings, but your pricing for personal holdings is a bit 'doolally'. Whilst it should be 'pricy' it should not be requiring a mortgage nor take years on years to complete (like T5 holdings).
At an educated guess, there would be more people who would work on their own 'vanity' project than a global one for which they have no obligation to contribute to, but will still gain the benefits.....unless there is a Global Holding Credits system like the Fleet Credits system, but everything is locked behind it so folk MUST contribute.
Thank goodness OUR exchange isn't like that.
Well, I guess it'd be nice.
Yea... although I think at this point the goldilocks zone for balance is probably around 300-350/1. 250 would be awesome. Anything below that is at this point a godly dream the likes we haven't seen since everyone was working on the Fleet Starbases. (I even remember we hit 87/1 at one point. Those were the days, even if sources for DL were scarce.)
The biggest issue with adding complicated new content sinks... is the developers. I know Cryptic is on the way out and we don't really know DECA. The issue is simple though if they add new content they will add new ZEN sinks they won't be able to help themselves. The chances of them adding a new system and not somehow incorporating a zen purchase are very low. So more then likely a new system like that would end up being the opposite of what anyone would hope for.
Yeah, I addressed that in my proposal. But also given that Zen and Dilithium are interchangeable, a Dilithium sink can also be a Zen sink. If DECA were to take up the idea of personal holdings, player housing, Starship Interiors, they'd be foolish not to use the tech already in place in the form of Fleet Starbases to base it on, which uses Dilithium.
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For me personally, I vastly prefer the zen market where I can get maximum value for my real money. I would never use the exchange unless the exchange had capped. I remember when the zen market had a pathetic exchange rate and wondered why anyone would just basically give away their money for a free (if somewhat time gated) resource.
A better way to approach this would be from the zen side. If you want to encourage people to inject money (zen) into the exchange then raise the cap. Raising the cap can help relieve pressure, but this alone will only take you so far. Rewarding players for dropping zen into the exchange will also help. Try introducing special account bound coupons for the zen store or offering bonuses with milestones that increase as that player puts more money into the exchange. More zen sales would be good too.
I think that the time that dilithium sinks being useful for fixing the issue are long past without completely trashing the experience for newer players.
They tried raising the cap on the Neverwinter equivalent of the dil/zen exchange, it got it moving for something like a whole four hours before it jammed at the cap again.
Besides, from the dil end of the exchange, 500 is about all that almost anyone except for those extreme dil farmers are willing to pay for one zen anyway so even if the cap is completely removed it would probably not get the Exchange moving much for long.
This 100% absolutely will not work, because in your own words, you won't buy until the Dil-Ex is capped, which will happen in a matter of hours without a contiguous Dil Sink. This attitude is part of the problem, not the solution. This does not help Dil-Zen trades and certainly isn't 'fair trade'.
Here's what will happen:
Cap gets increased to 600:1.
You immediately start listing 600:1
All the offers at 500:1 sit there until some buckle and agree to your price of 600:1
Trades slow down even more because players don't want to wait even longer to get a further reduced payback on their Dil.
It's resource economics 101. If there's no incentive to buy, bar at the lowest price possible, then the economy is biased and broken. This is what happens when large-scale companies force the price down in promise of shifting higher volumes and the smaller companies barely makes profit.
Contiguous Dil sinks do work and the game proves it time and again with the Fleet system. A new Fleet holding, a new Global holding and a personal holding will get the Dil-Ex moving and healthy again, because then you have a reason to buy Dil, which will reduce the glut.
Again people need to feel encouraged to use it. People should WANT to use it. And it goes both ways. Both the Zen Sellers and Dilithium Sellers should feel encouraged to use it. You need both for the DL Exchange to function. If you make it so lopsided that one side feels they are getting nothing out of it, then it will cease to function at all. So this proposal of raising the Exchange Cap...would not only do NOTHING to help the Exchange get moving faster, it will make everyone who trades Dilithium for Zen less likely to use it because they're having to work harder for less return. As leemwatson said, the solution is not to cater to greed, its to provide sufficient Demand for Dilithium to get the economy balanced again. If you provide a Demand for Dilithium, the market will move, and orders will be filled faster than they are now.
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One example for dill sink would be to turn these old ships which nobody wants into direct Dill buy
Promo ship costs roughly 100keys which is roughly 10000 zen which is maybe a 5000000 dill price tag
Zen T6 is 1500000
Zen T5 is 1000000
Lobi is 1000000
or maybe do slightly cheaper so it doesn't feel like you are paying premium in dill for junk.
Someone with great ship knowledge should make the decision which ships are junk and should be moved into that vendor.
I agree... clearly a dill sink is a zen sink. Its just not as immediate on their books. I am not sure Cryptic was ever in a place where they could afford to sink capital into a system were the return wasn't instantly realized. They were always scrambling and in the end it still didn't save the company.
DECA guess we don't know yet. I believe it would be in their best interest to add a system like you suggest and make it all purple rock spend. It should reduce the purple rock supply and eventually feed the game more Zen purchases. If they are under the gun to make numbers every quarter the way Cryptic was I don't see it happening. Hopefully DECA is in a better position... they do seem to be Embracers go to old game milker... hopefully that means they have some more room to do what needs done.
Big problem with that line of thought.
"One man's trash is another man's treasure".
You ask 50 people what they think is a good ship, you'll most likely get 50 different answers. What makes a ship good is subject to a player's particular playstyle. Anyone who says "X is the absolute best ever" is giving their opinion. Stats are one thing. Personal preference is another. Not only that, but you can give someone the most synergized build in the history of synergized builds, but if they don't know how to USE it, that ship is going to perform badly even if it is "the best ship in the game" statistically.
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Its a good thing too, because the purpose of that vendor is to be a dill sink and Its not like its free, you still have to pay the price of it but in dill.
ah forgot, ships from that vendor should be bound to account
It all boils down to Econ 101, which a lot of people in this thread have not taken or passed it seems. Since there are not enough sinks (demand) reducing the supply is the only long term answer that will work. yes it sucks, but there is going to be pain somewhere.
Remove the cap, market demand is obviously not favoring it.
The solution is to generate DEMAND for Dilithium. Give something that needs Dilithium to drive the market that people want to interact with. The only thing removing the cap will do with the current environment is make the DL Exchange totally unusable.
Stalling the market by trying to price fix it is not a solution. The price of dil in china is not arbitrary. I already said market caps are not the solution, and merely capping it is hiding from the solution while making the problem worse. Fleet holdings were a great move toward making a massive dil sink, but that wave is pretty much over.
If dil gets to 50k/1, then that's what the market does. Trying to control the market only breaks the market. It's a fool's errand.
The inflation of dil is not going to go away just because you want it to. So uncap the market, let it do what it is supposed to do. Fix the problem the right way.
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