Best / worst is always going to be subjective. What is best to one and worst to another may not always agree. Players have called ship ugly. There is no right or wrong answer to this. When in reality it all boils down to prefered player style.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,667Community Moderator
Best / worst is always going to be subjective. What is best to one and worst to another may not always agree. Players have called ship ugly. There is no right or wrong answer to this. When in reality it all boils down to prefered player style.
True. Although I think the consensus is that the standard T6 D'Deridex is pretty painful with its turn rate.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
The question is always: which is the best/worst ship for <insert role>.
Is your aim DPS, healing, tanking, mining etc.
Turn rate and stats are really secondary to consoles and buff layout.
With the early Tier 6 ships these were far from optimized.
The Phantom etc which were previously mentioned were early arrivals and therefor lack some of the bells and whistles newer Tier6 ships have.
Still have a nagging feeling that there was an actual Tier 6 ship released prior to Delta Rising.
That one ship should technically have the least options.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Ytijara-class dreadnought, without question. I cannot fathom how anyone could possibly have thought the 3/5 weapon arrangement was a good idea.
3/5 is great idea that we need more options for, we need more 3/5 ships. The Ytijara has a number of unique builds and stand out features making it one of the top ships in game. It shouldn't be anywhere near the worst ship list give that its a best ship for at least 2 build types.
I have found the T6 Malem (Fleet T'varo Light Warbird) is the superior mine layer... due to the console set 2pc giving you 20% base mine cool down (makes 20s mines 16s mines... and 15s mines 12s. Combo that mine cool down effect with the ability to slot a Dispersal pattern 3. Best mine layer in the game imo.
I agree though I would love to see a new 3/5..... or even better give me a 2/5 sci ship of some type. (Ok that is a crazy dream)
Ytijara-class dreadnought, without question. I cannot fathom how anyone could possibly have thought the 3/5 weapon arrangement was a good idea.
3/5 is great idea that we need more options for, we need more 3/5 ships. The Ytijara has a number of unique builds and stand out features making it one of the top ships in game. It shouldn't be anywhere near the worst ship list give that its a best ship for at least 2 build types.
I have found the T6 Malem (Fleet T'varo Light Warbird) is the superior mine layer... due to the console set 2pc giving you 20% base mine cool down (makes 20s mines 16s mines... and 15s mines 12s. Combo that mine cool down effect with the ability to slot a Dispersal pattern 3. Best mine layer in the game imo.
I agree though I would love to see a new 3/5..... or even better give me a 2/5 sci ship of some type. (Ok that is a crazy dream)
The reason I prefer the Ytijara is it can hit the same max mine rate generation speed as the Malem only the Ytijara set bonus means the mines move massively faster and so if both the Malem and Ytijara are the same distance away the Ytijara will destroy the target first.
When using the set bonus the Ytijara should destroy any target before any other ships mines get into range. Its the same for destroyable torpedo builds the Ytijara has the advantage in weapon flight speed over other ships. Its the unique weapon flight speed boost that makes me like the Ytijara. Remove that weapon flight speed boost and I see little reason to use a Ytijara.
The question is always: which is the best/worst ship for <insert role>.
Is your aim DPS, healing, tanking, mining etc.
Turn rate and stats are really secondary to consoles and buff layout.
With the early Tier 6 ships these were far from optimized.
The Phantom etc which were previously mentioned were early arrivals and therefor lack some of the bells and whistles newer Tier6 ships have.
Still have a nagging feeling that there was an actual Tier 6 ship released prior to Delta Rising.
That one ship should technically have the least options.
I think Oct 14 2014 was the T6 kick off.
Perhaps you are thinking of those first two lockbox ships... the;
Benthan Assault Cruiser and
Hazari Destroyer from the lobi store.
Both are pretty terrible now. Both have a single Lt Intel seat... and other wise pretty unremarkable stats, even compared to contemporary ships.
The question is always: which is the best/worst ship for <insert role>.
Is your aim DPS, healing, tanking, mining etc.
Turn rate and stats are really secondary to consoles and buff layout.
With the early Tier 6 ships these were far from optimized.
The Phantom etc which were previously mentioned were early arrivals and therefor lack some of the bells and whistles newer Tier6 ships have.
Still have a nagging feeling that there was an actual Tier 6 ship released prior to Delta Rising.
That one ship should technically have the least options.
I think Oct 14 2014 was the T6 kick off.
Perhaps you are thinking of those first two lockbox ships... the;
Benthan Assault Cruiser and
Hazari Destroyer from the lobi store.
Both are pretty terrible now. Both have a single Lt Intel seat... and other wise pretty unremarkable stats, even compared to contemporary ships.
Must have been the Benthan Assault Cruiser. Picked it up cheap on exchange. It always reminds me of the Babylon 5 Whitestar
Nimble ship. Boff layout nothing special and trait situational
Likewise for the Hazari.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
It still bothers me that the Benthan ship flies BACKWARDS..
I get that it's probably a pain to go through and reconfigure all the firing nodes to line up properly if the model was turned around, but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth.. especially because it was/is a 'premium' ship.
Regarding the turn rate issues on certain ships, I've never flown a Sarcophagus, but I have extensive experience with the D'Deridex, and compensating for the slow turns is almost trivially easy. Pilot spec tree (even secondary will suffice), RCS Accelerator (preferable Conductive), and things will go reasonably smoothly. Granted I've put a fair number of perk points into turn rate (I tend to prefer big ships in general), but still.
It still bothers me that the Benthan ship flies BACKWARDS..
I get that it's probably a pain to go through and reconfigure all the firing nodes to line up properly if the model was turned around, but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth.. especially because it was/is a 'premium' ship.
Actually, the STO version of the Benthan ship flies the way the designer intended it to fly, it is the VOY SFX people who got it wrong and showed it flying backwards (you would be shocked at how bad the communication is on one of those productions, it is a wonder they can even operate like that).
The D'Deridex is bad and (at least on a maneuver level) so is the Fe'Rang though the latter's fighters make up for some of it. I think the extra-straightjacketed feel of those two is from the inertia being cranked way over into the anti-skid end of the spectrum so they cannot pull the kind of power-glide maneuvers that some other big ships can use to make keeping the enemy in firing arc less of a dragging chore.
The Fe'Rang is anything but bad. Its one of the top carriers in game, pretty sure its near the top for Pet builds both with and without access to SAD. Its the no1 strongest none Frigate Carrier without SAD trait and with the SAD trait its still right up there near the top. Its also the strongest Tricobalt platform in game. I know Tricobalt are rare builds but its note worthy on top of being such a strong carrier.
I didn't say the Fe'Rang was useless in every respect, just that it is a D'Deridex-level pain in the posterior to fly maneuver-wise. For instance, I pointed out that its fighters and the ring of fire provide some mitigation of it having that maneuverability of a drunk, arthritic, three-legged hippo. Sometimes it is best just to give the Fe'Rang the reverse-direction buffing stuff and just have it go back and forth along the same line without turning at all (and it actually does alright with that as a FAW platform since the main weapons are the space ghosts anyway).
Regarding the turn rate issues on certain ships, I've never flown a Sarcophagus, but I have extensive experience with the D'Deridex, and compensating for the slow turns is almost trivially easy. Pilot spec tree (even secondary will suffice), RCS Accelerator (preferable Conductive), and things will go reasonably smoothly. Granted I've put a fair number of perk points into turn rate (I tend to prefer big ships in general), but still.
I've got both, and the Sarc is a whole new level of slow, and everything you listed still wasn't enough. It's still possible to get it to turn, but without a pile of Inertia from something like Competitive Wargames Engines, you'll just slide past everything instead. Nothing quite like missing the timing coming out of Full Impulse (if you hit R without Shift, you still have a pile of Inertia, but fire or hit Shift-R and you'll be back to normal Inertia) and you do a 180 to keep weapons on target and the target just flies away from you sideways ("come back you cowards! Wait... ships can't fly sideways in STO..."). It really took the Comp. Engines for this ship to not to be shelved for me, despite flying D'Ds for years at that point.
It still bothers me that the Benthan ship flies BACKWARDS..
I get that it's probably a pain to go through and reconfigure all the firing nodes to line up properly if the model was turned around, but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth.. especially because it was/is a 'premium' ship.
Actually, the STO version of the Benthan ship flies the way the designer intended it to fly, it is the VOY SFX people who got it wrong and showed it flying backwards (you would be shocked at how bad the communication is on one of those productions, it is a wonder they can even operate like that).
The D'Deridex is bad and (at least on a maneuver level) so is the Fe'Rang though the latter's fighters make up for some of it. I think the extra-straightjacketed feel of those two is from the inertia being cranked way over into the anti-skid end of the spectrum so they cannot pull the kind of power-glide maneuvers that some other big ships can use to make keeping the enemy in firing arc less of a dragging chore.
The Fe'Rang is anything but bad. Its one of the top carriers in game, pretty sure its near the top for Pet builds both with and without access to SAD. Its the no1 strongest none Frigate Carrier without SAD trait and with the SAD trait its still right up there near the top. Its also the strongest Tricobalt platform in game. I know Tricobalt are rare builds but its note worthy on top of being such a strong carrier.
I didn't say the Fe'Rang was useless in every respect, just that it is a D'Deridex-level pain in the posterior to fly maneuver-wise. For instance, I pointed out that its fighters and the ring of fire provide some mitigation of it having that maneuverability of a drunk, arthritic, three-legged hippo. Sometimes it is best just to give the Fe'Rang the reverse-direction buffing stuff and just have it go back and forth along the same line without turning at all (and it actually does alright with that as a FAW platform since the main weapons are the space ghosts anyway).
It does have a low turn rate but most Carriers are around that level. With the Commander Tactical + Comp Engine we can pretty much have a constant 350% turn rate boost. If more is needed fit the Carrier Pet Engineering consoles with Turn mod and/or use Evasive Manoeuvres +Evasive doff. With a full Carrier build it can have a pretty decent turn rate. EDIT: Add in Pilot spec secondary and endeavours turn rate boosts.
I just find it odd seeing the Fe'Rang in a thread about the absolutely worst T6 ship when its in my list of one of the top tier 6 Carriers for Carrier builds at least. I wouldn't fly it as an Energy boat or torpedo boat apart from, and I admit its an extremely niche build. A full themed Tricobalt torpedo boat which it is best in class at.
I didn't say the Fe'Rang was useless in every respect, just that it is a D'Deridex-level pain in the posterior to fly maneuver-wise. For instance, I pointed out that its fighters and the ring of fire provide some mitigation of it having that maneuverability of a drunk, arthritic, three-legged hippo. Sometimes it is best just to give the Fe'Rang the reverse-direction buffing stuff and just have it go back and forth along the same line without turning at all (and it actually does alright with that as a FAW platform since the main weapons are the space ghosts anyway).
I didn't say the Fe'Rang was useless in every respect, just that it is a D'Deridex-level pain in the posterior to fly maneuver-wise. For instance, I pointed out that its fighters and the ring of fire provide some mitigation of it having that maneuverability of a drunk, arthritic, three-legged hippo. Sometimes it is best just to give the Fe'Rang the reverse-direction buffing stuff and just have it go back and forth along the same line without turning at all (and it actually does alright with that as a FAW platform since the main weapons are the space ghosts anyway).
Wait.. a Ring of Fire???? IKS Johnny Cash......
If you're going to name it based on Ring of Fire then call the ship IKS Hemorrhoids
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Still say the Ytijara beats it. Maybe it makes for a good minelayer in theory (I don't see it but whatever), but i practice, well, note they haven't done that particular arrangement since.
Still say the Ytijara beats it. Maybe it makes for a good minelayer in theory (I don't see it but whatever), but i practice, well, note they haven't done that particular arrangement since.
Building a mine layer is pretty niche. To really do it you have to understand a few things that Cryptic doesn't really explain well. Such as mines of the same type de-spawning your old mines... but that specific subtypes of mines count as their own things ect.
Anyway its a TRIBBLE mine layer anyway... cause all it has is a LT tac seating so the only way to slot a decent mine pattern is to waste your lt cmd temp seating with a pattern. Still only has 3 tac consoles, and only 3 sci consoles. I mean your not wrong its a pretty freaking terrible ship.
I would still say as bad as the Romulan DD is though....
The Romulan Laeosa Research Warbird is even worse.
The Laeosa is also the one and only Romulan science ship.... even Cryptic understood after they launched it that science ships with -40 power where just not going to sell. Its messed up in all the same ways as the DD... you can make it do the basics but it just can't do any of it as well as any other ship of its class. (No I'm not counting the Sui'Mor its just a Vern skin)
Still say the Ytijara beats it. Maybe it makes for a good minelayer in theory (I don't see it but whatever), but i practice, well, note they haven't done that particular arrangement since.
Building a mine layer is pretty niche. To really do it you have to understand a few things that Cryptic doesn't really explain well. Such as mines of the same type de-spawning your old mines... but that specific subtypes of mines count as their own things ect.
Anyway its a TRIBBLE mine layer anyway... cause all it has is a LT tac seating so the only way to slot a decent mine pattern is to waste your lt cmd temp seating with a pattern. Still only has 3 tac consoles, and only 3 sci consoles. I mean your not wrong its a pretty freaking terrible ship.
I would still say as bad as the Romulan DD is though....
The Romulan Laeosa Research Warbird is even worse.
The Laeosa is also the one and only Romulan science ship.... even Cryptic understood after they launched it that science ships with -40 power where just not going to sell. Its messed up in all the same ways as the DD... you can make it do the basics but it just can't do any of it as well as any other ship of its class. (No I'm not counting the Sui'Mor its just a Vern skin)
I've never had any problem with the D'Deridex. As far as minelaying goes, I only have one ship with a mine launcher at all, and that primarily for the set bonus. (Nukara rep mine launcher, for what it's worth.)
Still say the Ytijara beats it. Maybe it makes for a good minelayer in theory (I don't see it but whatever), but i practice, well, note they haven't done that particular arrangement since.
The Ytijara has access to a unique set bonus that makes its heavy projectile weapons fly faster in space. That means its mines and heavy torpedoes hit and destroy the target before any other ship with the same build at the same distance gets to kill.
In other words park a Ytijara at 9km away from the NPC or even 2km away, park any other ship with heavy torps or minelayers at the same distance and the Ytijara will destroy the target first. Plus when the main target dies the heavy torps will zip 20km+ off to the next target. If you stack up weapon flight speed boosts the torpedos zip all over the map.
That's why its the top minelayer ship as well as the top heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat. Its a lot of fun watching 10+ heavy torpedos retarget and zip off at max speed to the next wave of NPC's.
Still say the Ytijara beats it. Maybe it makes for a good minelayer in theory (I don't see it but whatever), but i practice, well, note they haven't done that particular arrangement since.
Anyway its a TRIBBLE mine layer anyway... cause all it has is a LT tac seating so the only way to slot a decent mine pattern is to waste your lt cmd temp seating with a pattern. Still only has 3 tac consoles, and only 3 sci consoles. I mean your not wrong its a pretty freaking terrible ship.
Its the set bonus that makes it an amazing mine layer or heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat and causes it to beat any other ship at those roles. The speed of the Ytijara weapons will out pace any other mine layer build or any other heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat bar other Vorgon ships.
Still say the Ytijara beats it. Maybe it makes for a good minelayer in theory (I don't see it but whatever), but i practice, well, note they haven't done that particular arrangement since.
The Ytijara has access to a unique set bonus that makes its heavy projectile weapons fly faster in space. That means its mines and heavy torpedoes hit and destroy the target before any other ship with the same build at the same distance gets to kill.
In other words park a Ytijara at 9km away from the NPC or even 2km away, park any other ship with heavy torps or minelayers at the same distance and the Ytijara will destroy the target first. Plus when the main target dies the heavy torps will zip 20km+ off to the next target. If you stack up weapon flight speed boosts the torpedos zip all over the map.
That's why its the top minelayer ship as well as the top heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat. Its a lot of fun watching 10+ heavy torpedos retarget and zip off at max speed to the next wave of NPC's.
Still say the Ytijara beats it. Maybe it makes for a good minelayer in theory (I don't see it but whatever), but i practice, well, note they haven't done that particular arrangement since.
Anyway its a TRIBBLE mine layer anyway... cause all it has is a LT tac seating so the only way to slot a decent mine pattern is to waste your lt cmd temp seating with a pattern. Still only has 3 tac consoles, and only 3 sci consoles. I mean your not wrong its a pretty freaking terrible ship.
Its the set bonus that makes it an amazing mine layer or heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat and causes it to beat any other ship at those roles. The speed of the Ytijara weapons will out pace any other mine layer build or any other heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat bar other Vorgon ships.
I can see your point on flight speed for mines... but I'm not sure its really a big deal anymore when we can warp mines every 20-30s anyway. I also much prefer the Romulan T'varo/T'liss set that reduces torp and mine cool downs 20%. Get more stuff spammed out. Lately I am enjoying the pilot ships for destructible torps, its just hard to beat the rapid fire with the eagle console.
At least we have a few different niche things for mines and destructible now. I should setup a vorgon though... I never really played with any of them much past their launch really.
Still say the Ytijara beats it. Maybe it makes for a good minelayer in theory (I don't see it but whatever), but i practice, well, note they haven't done that particular arrangement since.
The Ytijara has access to a unique set bonus that makes its heavy projectile weapons fly faster in space. That means its mines and heavy torpedoes hit and destroy the target before any other ship with the same build at the same distance gets to kill.
In other words park a Ytijara at 9km away from the NPC or even 2km away, park any other ship with heavy torps or minelayers at the same distance and the Ytijara will destroy the target first. Plus when the main target dies the heavy torps will zip 20km+ off to the next target. If you stack up weapon flight speed boosts the torpedos zip all over the map.
That's why its the top minelayer ship as well as the top heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat. Its a lot of fun watching 10+ heavy torpedos retarget and zip off at max speed to the next wave of NPC's.
Still say the Ytijara beats it. Maybe it makes for a good minelayer in theory (I don't see it but whatever), but i practice, well, note they haven't done that particular arrangement since.
Anyway its a TRIBBLE mine layer anyway... cause all it has is a LT tac seating so the only way to slot a decent mine pattern is to waste your lt cmd temp seating with a pattern. Still only has 3 tac consoles, and only 3 sci consoles. I mean your not wrong its a pretty freaking terrible ship.
Its the set bonus that makes it an amazing mine layer or heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat and causes it to beat any other ship at those roles. The speed of the Ytijara weapons will out pace any other mine layer build or any other heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat bar other Vorgon ships.
I can see your point on flight speed for mines... but I'm not sure its really a big deal anymore when we can warp mines every 20-30s anyway. I also much prefer the Romulan T'varo/T'liss set that reduces torp and mine cool downs 20%. Get more stuff spammed out. Lately I am enjoying the pilot ships for destructible torps, its just hard to beat the rapid fire with the eagle console.
At least we have a few different niche things for mines and destructible now. I should setup a vorgon though... I never really played with any of them much past their launch really.
With the right build the Ytijara can spam out more mines, I think almost double the amount of mines as the T'varo/T'liss even with the 20% cooldown. Last time I used my Ytijara it was dropping a mine volley every 0.5 seconds or there about. While I think the T'varo/T'liss is only dropping a mine volley every 3 to 5 seconds? Been a while since I used a T'varo/T'liss.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Dyson destroyer yet.
Or is it so bad that no one is using it anymore?
One reason not to mention it is that it is Tier 5 and we're discussing Tier 6.
Personally i find them lacking, but i also know there are people who swear by them, People have preferences.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Dyson destroyer yet.
Or is it so bad that no one is using it anymore?
The DSDs are fine. Sure, they don't get a specialist seat and have the dumb fused gun, but as a science platform they are perfectly serviceable.
Ytijara comments/soapbox:
It's honestly a bit frustrating how many people look at the weapon layout and just turn their brains off without giving it actual consideration.
I know I voiced my annoyance with its limited tactical seating when the ship first came out, but the reality is you don't actually need dispersal patterns when you have that many mine launchers on your ship. It prohibits a burst-deployment setup you can run on escort-layers, but the 3/5 layout allows you to completely saturate space with mines that you're able to then teleport on top of priority targets. The tactical seating gives you enough room to run Kemocite and whatever else you want to use to cycle the Voth Carrier Frequencies Starship Trait.
This brings up the second point, a flight deck. Pairing Voth Carrier Frequencies(specifically pet-applied Aceton Mode) with quick, swarming fighters like Orion Interceptors allows you to knock ships offline in a wide area to maximize your mine damage against targets that would otherwise be shielded and mobile.
Thirdly, flight speed is paramount for minelayer builds. Even with access to mine teleportation, it still takes time for mines to close with their targets. The Vorgon set gives you access to more flight speed for mines, which lets the mines actually connect and apply damage faster.
The worst part about the Ytijara is probably the Temporal seat. Intel would be a much better match for a minelayer because of the synergy with Kinetic Magnet and Ionic Turbulence.
Obviously, the worst part about minelayer builds, as a whole, is the entity render limit. Having multiple SAD Squadron carriers on a map at once is already bad enough, but dedicated minelayers can easily make maps unplayable for everyone else by themself. That's the real reason people don't use them very often, and honestly why I don't actively push for more platforms like the Ytijara to be introduced. It's NOT a bad ship/playstyle, just one that the game can't currently handle well.
Still say the Ytijara beats it. Maybe it makes for a good minelayer in theory (I don't see it but whatever), but i practice, well, note they haven't done that particular arrangement since.
The Ytijara has access to a unique set bonus that makes its heavy projectile weapons fly faster in space. That means its mines and heavy torpedoes hit and destroy the target before any other ship with the same build at the same distance gets to kill.
In other words park a Ytijara at 9km away from the NPC or even 2km away, park any other ship with heavy torps or minelayers at the same distance and the Ytijara will destroy the target first. Plus when the main target dies the heavy torps will zip 20km+ off to the next target. If you stack up weapon flight speed boosts the torpedos zip all over the map.
That's why its the top minelayer ship as well as the top heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat. Its a lot of fun watching 10+ heavy torpedos retarget and zip off at max speed to the next wave of NPC's.
Still say the Ytijara beats it. Maybe it makes for a good minelayer in theory (I don't see it but whatever), but i practice, well, note they haven't done that particular arrangement since.
Anyway its a TRIBBLE mine layer anyway... cause all it has is a LT tac seating so the only way to slot a decent mine pattern is to waste your lt cmd temp seating with a pattern. Still only has 3 tac consoles, and only 3 sci consoles. I mean your not wrong its a pretty freaking terrible ship.
Its the set bonus that makes it an amazing mine layer or heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat and causes it to beat any other ship at those roles. The speed of the Ytijara weapons will out pace any other mine layer build or any other heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat bar other Vorgon ships.
I can see your point on flight speed for mines... but I'm not sure its really a big deal anymore when we can warp mines every 20-30s anyway. I also much prefer the Romulan T'varo/T'liss set that reduces torp and mine cool downs 20%. Get more stuff spammed out. Lately I am enjoying the pilot ships for destructible torps, its just hard to beat the rapid fire with the eagle console.
At least we have a few different niche things for mines and destructible now. I should setup a vorgon though... I never really played with any of them much past their launch really.
With the right build the Ytijara can spam out more mines, I think almost double the amount of mines as the T'varo/T'liss even with the 20% cooldown. Last time I used my Ytijara it was dropping a mine volley every 0.5 seconds or there about. While I think the T'varo/T'liss is only dropping a mine volley every 3 to 5 seconds? Been a while since I used a T'varo/T'liss.
Na the Varo wins easy. Varo can slot dispersal pattern 3. Much harder to slot any pattern on the Vorgon. (you can run a dispersal 2 if your willing to give up your Temp Lt cmd skill.) T'varo is also capable of running dispersal 3 + Kemo 3.
You also want to slot the proper mines and use duty officers for mine cool down.
Black ops and Tetryon mines both become 10s base mines with the Varo set. I normally combo those with a competition rep mine which becomes 16s. I then slot 2-3 mine doffs. (I normally split 2 mine 1 torp doff) They reduce cool down 5s when they proc... and they proc as often as torp doffs do. With 3 doffs it essentially never really stops dropping mines. Very rarely you won't get a proc after dropping 3 mines... but even then one of the 10s mines will be back up in a couple seconds anyway. So pretty much global mine drop anyway even though you only have 3 mines. The advantage for the vorgon with 5 rare imo is probably the despawn issues. Once a fight starts 3 different on the varo is enough to avoid despawn anyway... but the vorgon might have less issue if your dropping mines 1m before a map starts maybe.
All I know is if I start dropping mines with 30s to go before a map starts.... the NPCs are all going to disappear unless your 2k from them and I get the odd hate tell for the obnoxious mine spam. lol
The kicker with it vs the Vorgon... is that same 20% applies to destructible torps as well. Where as we have 3 sources of destructible flight speed anyway. And the varo has 4 fore instead of only 3. So my standard setup when I want to be annoying is... Lobi Time Device (becomes 16s cooldown), Lobi Biomatter (becomes 12s), Hyper torp (6s), Digitizer (24s). Sometimes I'll swap the digitizer out for a emission plasma torp (its not hy but with just one torp doff and CM trait sometimes its just nice to have 2 6s torps). Running the emiss over the Digitizer parses more DPS for sure... but sometimes its just funny to fire nothing but destructible torps, I wish we had one more sub 20s destructible. I sometimes run the Isolytic tric cause I just love the rift it leaves behind but that 15s global on tricobalts is super annoying.
EDIT- also didn't touch on the advantage of the cloak. With a proper romulan toon you can have 100% uptime on 40% cat2 bonus on all dmg from ambush. Another 40% cat2 from she's a predator for 15-22s depending on boff layout. Also if your running mines anyway.... ambush traits and boff uptime extenders also buff the competition reputation 2 pc hidden payload. So you get a third ambush buff from that. The mine is great anyway slot the console and you enable hidden payload. Easy to get 120% cat 2 bonus dmg on a mine swarm on the varo.
Ytijara-class dreadnought, without question. I cannot fathom how anyone could possibly have thought the 3/5 weapon arrangement was a good idea.
3/5 is great idea that we need more options for, we need more 3/5 ships. The Ytijara has a number of unique builds and stand out features making it one of the top ships in game. It shouldn't be anywhere near the worst ship list give that its a best ship for at least 2 build types.
Well said. The best fun in the game is going against the boring copy & paste meta and making something different work.
I actually ignore the suggestive mine laying aspect of the Ytijara. With its temporal/sci seating and the right traits/consoles it makes a very effective sci/DEW build that can rip through most content in the game. Sure the build lacks a secondary deflector, but even in full sci ships the likes of SIA will help kill enemies even before the deflector comes into play. The 3/5 layout is a bit of red herring, you can still broadside especially with 2 omnis in the rear. I let the Vorgon ships console set influence me to a Tetyron build (oh dear so anti-meta again) and the recent free Tetryon consoles & sets actually fits into my build well.
So I agree, the Ytijara is nowhere near the worst T6 ship in the game. With a bit of imagination and work, most ships are very playable in their own ways.
I would add a completely different (well, the first pack has been mentioned) ship, the Dauntless. Even though it lacks the manoeuverability issues, I never got it to work, and I am saying that as somebody who loves Sci builds. It somehow seems lacking against any comparable ship. Maybe I should revisit, it's been some years, and now I can do better, but ...
But as for the premise of this thread, any T6 ship (or T5-U) can be turned into a decent enough build. Just depending on what you like.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
I would add a completely different (well, the first pack has been mentioned) ship, the Dauntless. Even though it lacks the manoeuverability issues, I never got it to work, and I am saying that as somebody who loves Sci builds. It somehow seems lacking against any comparable ship. Maybe I should revisit, it's been some years, and now I can do better, but ...
But as for the premise of this thread, any T6 ship (or T5-U) can be turned into a decent enough build. Just depending on what you like.
Come to think of it, i have that one in my inventory.
I should take another look at it.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Still say the Ytijara beats it. Maybe it makes for a good minelayer in theory (I don't see it but whatever), but i practice, well, note they haven't done that particular arrangement since.
The Ytijara has access to a unique set bonus that makes its heavy projectile weapons fly faster in space. That means its mines and heavy torpedoes hit and destroy the target before any other ship with the same build at the same distance gets to kill.
In other words park a Ytijara at 9km away from the NPC or even 2km away, park any other ship with heavy torps or minelayers at the same distance and the Ytijara will destroy the target first. Plus when the main target dies the heavy torps will zip 20km+ off to the next target. If you stack up weapon flight speed boosts the torpedos zip all over the map.
That's why its the top minelayer ship as well as the top heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat. Its a lot of fun watching 10+ heavy torpedos retarget and zip off at max speed to the next wave of NPC's.
Still say the Ytijara beats it. Maybe it makes for a good minelayer in theory (I don't see it but whatever), but i practice, well, note they haven't done that particular arrangement since.
Anyway its a TRIBBLE mine layer anyway... cause all it has is a LT tac seating so the only way to slot a decent mine pattern is to waste your lt cmd temp seating with a pattern. Still only has 3 tac consoles, and only 3 sci consoles. I mean your not wrong its a pretty freaking terrible ship.
Its the set bonus that makes it an amazing mine layer or heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat and causes it to beat any other ship at those roles. The speed of the Ytijara weapons will out pace any other mine layer build or any other heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat bar other Vorgon ships.
I can see your point on flight speed for mines... but I'm not sure its really a big deal anymore when we can warp mines every 20-30s anyway. I also much prefer the Romulan T'varo/T'liss set that reduces torp and mine cool downs 20%. Get more stuff spammed out. Lately I am enjoying the pilot ships for destructible torps, its just hard to beat the rapid fire with the eagle console.
At least we have a few different niche things for mines and destructible now. I should setup a vorgon though... I never really played with any of them much past their launch really.
With the right build the Ytijara can spam out more mines, I think almost double the amount of mines as the T'varo/T'liss even with the 20% cooldown. Last time I used my Ytijara it was dropping a mine volley every 0.5 seconds or there about. While I think the T'varo/T'liss is only dropping a mine volley every 3 to 5 seconds? Been a while since I used a T'varo/T'liss.
Na the Varo wins easy. Varo can slot dispersal pattern 3. Much harder to slot any pattern on the Vorgon. (you can run a dispersal 2 if your willing to give up your Temp Lt cmd skill.) T'varo is also capable of running dispersal 3 + Kemo 3.
You also want to slot the proper mines and use duty officers for mine cool down.
Black ops and Tetryon mines both become 10s base mines with the Varo set. I normally combo those with a competition rep mine which becomes 16s. I then slot 2-3 mine doffs. (I normally split 2 mine 1 torp doff) They reduce cool down 5s when they proc... and they proc as often as torp doffs do. With 3 doffs it essentially never really stops dropping mines. Very rarely you won't get a proc after dropping 3 mines... but even then one of the 10s mines will be back up in a couple seconds anyway. So pretty much global mine drop anyway even though you only have 3 mines. The advantage for the vorgon with 5 rare imo is probably the despawn issues. Once a fight starts 3 different on the varo is enough to avoid despawn anyway... but the vorgon might have less issue if your dropping mines 1m before a map starts maybe.
All I know is if I start dropping mines with 30s to go before a map starts.... the NPCs are all going to disappear unless your 2k from them and I get the odd hate tell for the obnoxious mine spam. lol
The kicker with it vs the Vorgon... is that same 20% applies to destructible torps as well. Where as we have 3 sources of destructible flight speed anyway. And the varo has 4 fore instead of only 3. So my standard setup when I want to be annoying is... Lobi Time Device (becomes 16s cooldown), Lobi Biomatter (becomes 12s), Hyper torp (6s), Digitizer (24s). Sometimes I'll swap the digitizer out for a emission plasma torp (its not hy but with just one torp doff and CM trait sometimes its just nice to have 2 6s torps). Running the emiss over the Digitizer parses more DPS for sure... but sometimes its just funny to fire nothing but destructible torps, I wish we had one more sub 20s destructible. I sometimes run the Isolytic tric cause I just love the rift it leaves behind but that 15s global on tricobalts is super annoying.
EDIT- also didn't touch on the advantage of the cloak. With a proper romulan toon you can have 100% uptime on 40% cat2 bonus on all dmg from ambush. Another 40% cat2 from she's a predator for 15-22s depending on boff layout. Also if your running mines anyway.... ambush traits and boff uptime extenders also buff the competition reputation 2 pc hidden payload. So you get a third ambush buff from that. The mine is great anyway slot the console and you enable hidden payload. Easy to get 120% cat 2 bonus dmg on a mine swarm on the varo.
It sounds like we build our mine layers very differently. The aim of my post is not to get you to change builds. Its just to show how I build mine and why I don’t think the Vorgon ships belongs in the worst T6 list.
“The advantage for the vorgon with 5 rare imo is probably the despawn issues. Once a fight starts 3 different on the varo is enough to avoid despawn anyway... but the vorgon might have less issue if your dropping mines 1m before a map starts maybe.”
That’s what the Vorgon mine Flight speed boost is for. The mines move so much faster that they hit the target before the Varo mines. The faster Vorgon mines means less despwan issues as they are waiting around in space far less. Plus as you have 5 rear slots you can get away with less mine recharge doff and swap them for mine/proj damage boosting doffs.
A Quantum mine on a Vorgon with the set boots is something like around double to triple the flight speed of a Black op or Tetryyon mine on a Varo.
What I like to do is mix in tricobalt mines on my Vorgon. They hit extremely hard, don’t cause the despawn issue and you fit tricobalt without limiting you mine generation rate. If you fit a tricobalt to a Varo your mine generation rate plummets.
As for Dispersal Pattern 3 it kind of doesn’t matter as the Vorgon is generating enough mines to make you spawn more mines then the Varo.
“but even then one of the 10s mines will be back up in a couple seconds anyway. So pretty much global mine drop anyway even though you only have 3 mines.”
Do you not use the two consoles that reduce global mine drop rate? Although one of them was broken for a while not sure if its been fixed. My preferred layout at least when running a full mine layer theme build is Modulating Competition, Advanced Quantum, Quantum Thoron Infused, Black Ops, Tricobalt or sometimes remove the Black ops for x2 Tricobalt. Personally, I don’t use or like Hidden Payload. In the front I tend to go for Tricobalt Cluster, Transphasic Cluster and that Chronotron one who’s name I forgot that turns into Cluster on high yield. Plus the pet on the Vorgon which is generating more mines for you.
"Where as we have 3 sources of destructible flight speed anyway."
The Vorgon ships have 5 for Plasma and 4 boosts for none plasma. Its kind of fun having a Hyper Plasma build with x5 Flight Speed Boost. More so when they all retarget and zip over to the other side of the map.
Comments
True. Although I think the consensus is that the standard T6 D'Deridex is pretty painful with its turn rate.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Is your aim DPS, healing, tanking, mining etc.
Turn rate and stats are really secondary to consoles and buff layout.
With the early Tier 6 ships these were far from optimized.
The Phantom etc which were previously mentioned were early arrivals and therefor lack some of the bells and whistles newer Tier6 ships have.
Still have a nagging feeling that there was an actual Tier 6 ship released prior to Delta Rising.
That one ship should technically have the least options.
I have found the T6 Malem (Fleet T'varo Light Warbird) is the superior mine layer... due to the console set 2pc giving you 20% base mine cool down (makes 20s mines 16s mines... and 15s mines 12s. Combo that mine cool down effect with the ability to slot a Dispersal pattern 3. Best mine layer in the game imo.
I agree though I would love to see a new 3/5..... or even better give me a 2/5 sci ship of some type. (Ok that is a crazy dream)
When using the set bonus the Ytijara should destroy any target before any other ships mines get into range. Its the same for destroyable torpedo builds the Ytijara has the advantage in weapon flight speed over other ships. Its the unique weapon flight speed boost that makes me like the Ytijara. Remove that weapon flight speed boost and I see little reason to use a Ytijara.
I think Oct 14 2014 was the T6 kick off.
Perhaps you are thinking of those first two lockbox ships... the;
Benthan Assault Cruiser and
Hazari Destroyer from the lobi store.
Both are pretty terrible now. Both have a single Lt Intel seat... and other wise pretty unremarkable stats, even compared to contemporary ships.
Must have been the Benthan Assault Cruiser. Picked it up cheap on exchange. It always reminds me of the Babylon 5 Whitestar
Nimble ship. Boff layout nothing special and trait situational
Likewise for the Hazari.
I get that it's probably a pain to go through and reconfigure all the firing nodes to line up properly if the model was turned around, but it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth.. especially because it was/is a 'premium' ship.
Actually, the STO version of the Benthan ship flies the way the designer intended it to fly, it is the VOY SFX people who got it wrong and showed it flying backwards (you would be shocked at how bad the communication is on one of those productions, it is a wonder they can even operate like that).
I didn't say the Fe'Rang was useless in every respect, just that it is a D'Deridex-level pain in the posterior to fly maneuver-wise. For instance, I pointed out that its fighters and the ring of fire provide some mitigation of it having that maneuverability of a drunk, arthritic, three-legged hippo. Sometimes it is best just to give the Fe'Rang the reverse-direction buffing stuff and just have it go back and forth along the same line without turning at all (and it actually does alright with that as a FAW platform since the main weapons are the space ghosts anyway).
I've got both, and the Sarc is a whole new level of slow, and everything you listed still wasn't enough. It's still possible to get it to turn, but without a pile of Inertia from something like Competitive Wargames Engines, you'll just slide past everything instead. Nothing quite like missing the timing coming out of Full Impulse (if you hit R without Shift, you still have a pile of Inertia, but fire or hit Shift-R and you'll be back to normal Inertia) and you do a 180 to keep weapons on target and the target just flies away from you sideways ("come back you cowards! Wait... ships can't fly sideways in STO..."). It really took the Comp. Engines for this ship to not to be shelved for me, despite flying D'Ds for years at that point.
I just find it odd seeing the Fe'Rang in a thread about the absolutely worst T6 ship when its in my list of one of the top tier 6 Carriers for Carrier builds at least. I wouldn't fly it as an Energy boat or torpedo boat apart from, and I admit its an extremely niche build. A full themed Tricobalt torpedo boat which it is best in class at.
Wait.. a Ring of Fire???? IKS Johnny Cash......
If you're going to name it based on Ring of Fire then call the ship IKS Hemorrhoids
Still say the Ytijara beats it. Maybe it makes for a good minelayer in theory (I don't see it but whatever), but i practice, well, note they haven't done that particular arrangement since.
Building a mine layer is pretty niche. To really do it you have to understand a few things that Cryptic doesn't really explain well. Such as mines of the same type de-spawning your old mines... but that specific subtypes of mines count as their own things ect.
Anyway its a TRIBBLE mine layer anyway... cause all it has is a LT tac seating so the only way to slot a decent mine pattern is to waste your lt cmd temp seating with a pattern. Still only has 3 tac consoles, and only 3 sci consoles. I mean your not wrong its a pretty freaking terrible ship.
I would still say as bad as the Romulan DD is though....
The Romulan Laeosa Research Warbird is even worse.
The Laeosa is also the one and only Romulan science ship.... even Cryptic understood after they launched it that science ships with -40 power where just not going to sell. Its messed up in all the same ways as the DD... you can make it do the basics but it just can't do any of it as well as any other ship of its class. (No I'm not counting the Sui'Mor its just a Vern skin)
I've never had any problem with the D'Deridex. As far as minelaying goes, I only have one ship with a mine launcher at all, and that primarily for the set bonus. (Nukara rep mine launcher, for what it's worth.)
In other words park a Ytijara at 9km away from the NPC or even 2km away, park any other ship with heavy torps or minelayers at the same distance and the Ytijara will destroy the target first. Plus when the main target dies the heavy torps will zip 20km+ off to the next target. If you stack up weapon flight speed boosts the torpedos zip all over the map.
That's why its the top minelayer ship as well as the top heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat. Its a lot of fun watching 10+ heavy torpedos retarget and zip off at max speed to the next wave of NPC's.
Its the set bonus that makes it an amazing mine layer or heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat and causes it to beat any other ship at those roles. The speed of the Ytijara weapons will out pace any other mine layer build or any other heavy torpedo/destructible torpedo boat bar other Vorgon ships.
I can see your point on flight speed for mines... but I'm not sure its really a big deal anymore when we can warp mines every 20-30s anyway. I also much prefer the Romulan T'varo/T'liss set that reduces torp and mine cool downs 20%. Get more stuff spammed out. Lately I am enjoying the pilot ships for destructible torps, its just hard to beat the rapid fire with the eagle console.
At least we have a few different niche things for mines and destructible now. I should setup a vorgon though... I never really played with any of them much past their launch really.
Or is it so bad that no one is using it anymore?
One reason not to mention it is that it is Tier 5 and we're discussing Tier 6.
Personally i find them lacking, but i also know there are people who swear by them, People have preferences.
Ytijara comments/soapbox:
It's honestly a bit frustrating how many people look at the weapon layout and just turn their brains off without giving it actual consideration.
I know I voiced my annoyance with its limited tactical seating when the ship first came out, but the reality is you don't actually need dispersal patterns when you have that many mine launchers on your ship. It prohibits a burst-deployment setup you can run on escort-layers, but the 3/5 layout allows you to completely saturate space with mines that you're able to then teleport on top of priority targets. The tactical seating gives you enough room to run Kemocite and whatever else you want to use to cycle the Voth Carrier Frequencies Starship Trait.
This brings up the second point, a flight deck. Pairing Voth Carrier Frequencies(specifically pet-applied Aceton Mode) with quick, swarming fighters like Orion Interceptors allows you to knock ships offline in a wide area to maximize your mine damage against targets that would otherwise be shielded and mobile.
Thirdly, flight speed is paramount for minelayer builds. Even with access to mine teleportation, it still takes time for mines to close with their targets. The Vorgon set gives you access to more flight speed for mines, which lets the mines actually connect and apply damage faster.
The worst part about the Ytijara is probably the Temporal seat. Intel would be a much better match for a minelayer because of the synergy with Kinetic Magnet and Ionic Turbulence.
Obviously, the worst part about minelayer builds, as a whole, is the entity render limit. Having multiple SAD Squadron carriers on a map at once is already bad enough, but dedicated minelayers can easily make maps unplayable for everyone else by themself. That's the real reason people don't use them very often, and honestly why I don't actively push for more platforms like the Ytijara to be introduced. It's NOT a bad ship/playstyle, just one that the game can't currently handle well.
Na the Varo wins easy. Varo can slot dispersal pattern 3. Much harder to slot any pattern on the Vorgon. (you can run a dispersal 2 if your willing to give up your Temp Lt cmd skill.) T'varo is also capable of running dispersal 3 + Kemo 3.
You also want to slot the proper mines and use duty officers for mine cool down.
Black ops and Tetryon mines both become 10s base mines with the Varo set. I normally combo those with a competition rep mine which becomes 16s. I then slot 2-3 mine doffs. (I normally split 2 mine 1 torp doff) They reduce cool down 5s when they proc... and they proc as often as torp doffs do. With 3 doffs it essentially never really stops dropping mines. Very rarely you won't get a proc after dropping 3 mines... but even then one of the 10s mines will be back up in a couple seconds anyway. So pretty much global mine drop anyway even though you only have 3 mines. The advantage for the vorgon with 5 rare imo is probably the despawn issues. Once a fight starts 3 different on the varo is enough to avoid despawn anyway... but the vorgon might have less issue if your dropping mines 1m before a map starts maybe.
All I know is if I start dropping mines with 30s to go before a map starts.... the NPCs are all going to disappear unless your 2k from them and I get the odd hate tell for the obnoxious mine spam.
The kicker with it vs the Vorgon... is that same 20% applies to destructible torps as well. Where as we have 3 sources of destructible flight speed anyway. And the varo has 4 fore instead of only 3. So my standard setup when I want to be annoying is... Lobi Time Device (becomes 16s cooldown), Lobi Biomatter (becomes 12s), Hyper torp (6s), Digitizer (24s). Sometimes I'll swap the digitizer out for a emission plasma torp (its not hy but with just one torp doff and CM trait sometimes its just nice to have 2 6s torps). Running the emiss over the Digitizer parses more DPS for sure... but sometimes its just funny to fire nothing but destructible torps, I wish we had one more sub 20s destructible. I sometimes run the Isolytic tric cause I just love the rift it leaves behind but that 15s global on tricobalts is super annoying.
EDIT- also didn't touch on the advantage of the cloak. With a proper romulan toon you can have 100% uptime on 40% cat2 bonus on all dmg from ambush. Another 40% cat2 from she's a predator for 15-22s depending on boff layout. Also if your running mines anyway.... ambush traits and boff uptime extenders also buff the competition reputation 2 pc hidden payload. So you get a third ambush buff from that. The mine is great anyway slot the console and you enable hidden payload. Easy to get 120% cat 2 bonus dmg on a mine swarm on the varo.
Well said. The best fun in the game is going against the boring copy & paste meta and making something different work.
I actually ignore the suggestive mine laying aspect of the Ytijara. With its temporal/sci seating and the right traits/consoles it makes a very effective sci/DEW build that can rip through most content in the game. Sure the build lacks a secondary deflector, but even in full sci ships the likes of SIA will help kill enemies even before the deflector comes into play. The 3/5 layout is a bit of red herring, you can still broadside especially with 2 omnis in the rear. I let the Vorgon ships console set influence me to a Tetyron build (oh dear so anti-meta again) and the recent free Tetryon consoles & sets actually fits into my build well.
So I agree, the Ytijara is nowhere near the worst T6 ship in the game. With a bit of imagination and work, most ships are very playable in their own ways.
Right, forgot about/missed that when returning to the thread.
But as for the premise of this thread, any T6 ship (or T5-U) can be turned into a decent enough build. Just depending on what you like.
Come to think of it, i have that one in my inventory.
I should take another look at it.
It sounds like we build our mine layers very differently. The aim of my post is not to get you to change builds. Its just to show how I build mine and why I don’t think the Vorgon ships belongs in the worst T6 list.
“The advantage for the vorgon with 5 rare imo is probably the despawn issues. Once a fight starts 3 different on the varo is enough to avoid despawn anyway... but the vorgon might have less issue if your dropping mines 1m before a map starts maybe.”
That’s what the Vorgon mine Flight speed boost is for. The mines move so much faster that they hit the target before the Varo mines. The faster Vorgon mines means less despwan issues as they are waiting around in space far less. Plus as you have 5 rear slots you can get away with less mine recharge doff and swap them for mine/proj damage boosting doffs.
A Quantum mine on a Vorgon with the set boots is something like around double to triple the flight speed of a Black op or Tetryyon mine on a Varo.
What I like to do is mix in tricobalt mines on my Vorgon. They hit extremely hard, don’t cause the despawn issue and you fit tricobalt without limiting you mine generation rate. If you fit a tricobalt to a Varo your mine generation rate plummets.
As for Dispersal Pattern 3 it kind of doesn’t matter as the Vorgon is generating enough mines to make you spawn more mines then the Varo.
“but even then one of the 10s mines will be back up in a couple seconds anyway. So pretty much global mine drop anyway even though you only have 3 mines.”
Do you not use the two consoles that reduce global mine drop rate? Although one of them was broken for a while not sure if its been fixed. My preferred layout at least when running a full mine layer theme build is Modulating Competition, Advanced Quantum, Quantum Thoron Infused, Black Ops, Tricobalt or sometimes remove the Black ops for x2 Tricobalt. Personally, I don’t use or like Hidden Payload. In the front I tend to go for Tricobalt Cluster, Transphasic Cluster and that Chronotron one who’s name I forgot that turns into Cluster on high yield. Plus the pet on the Vorgon which is generating more mines for you.
"Where as we have 3 sources of destructible flight speed anyway."
The Vorgon ships have 5 for Plasma and 4 boosts for none plasma. Its kind of fun having a Hyper Plasma build with x5 Flight Speed Boost. More so when they all retarget and zip over to the other side of the map.