The ones at Vega in the former tutorial were a result of time travel from Khitomer Stasis - that's why they were disoriented, not anything to do with a fractured Collective (which has already reconstituted by 2409 anyway if we're going that route).
Is Time Travel the reason why the Tutorial Borg have a Jemmy in their ranks, well... an outdated one at least?
Normally i would agree cause yes the Borg have been planned since VIL. However that was what 4yrs ago. I just timing odd
Jem'Hadar Borg would be inevitable if the Dominon is even a fraction of the size that Weyoun claimed in his disinformation to the Federation in DS9 since the Borg territory in VOY straddled the Delta/Gamma border the way the Federation does the Alpha/Beta border. It is actually surprising that they do not have a lot more J'H drones, though their lifespan may be rather short as quick-grow bio-constructs which could tend to limit their numbers somewhat compared to longer-lived-species drones.
Also, in the shows the Borg are not completely a monolithic collective, there have been a number of splinter groups shown even before NuTrek came out. In fact, some of the dialog in First Contact mentions that the queen (as played by Alice Kreige in various Treks) is mostly software and constructed in the field where the collective needs to operate with more precise oversight than usual in some area (and implies that the distance from their normal territory and the failures of other methods could have been a factor in creating the particular one in the movie).
Or something along those lines anyway, though she was saying it to make the heroes despair the fact that no matter what they did they could not destroy her except for one instance of her out of many and she would be back any time she chose to do so, but the implications were clear enough.
As for design language, Hollywood already has revisionist thinking on the brain too much already. No need to limit a show to one particular ship design aesthetic, being inclusive is much, much more realistic than a monolithic aesthetic could ever be.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,687Community Moderator
I think factions really started forming after Hugh was exposed to indivuality. That created the first true splinter faction of the Borg. Then we had the Cooperative in Voyager, followed by Unimatrix 0 getting liberated. Queen Jurati's faction in Picard would make a 4th faction.
After Hugh, it was really Voyager who enabled the formation of splinter groups as the Collective had been one massive hive mind entity before that. The existence of the Queens seems to indicate basically mobile control nodes. Kinda like how in Warhammer 40k the Tyranids have Synaps Creatures that can exert control over lower tier Tyranids to keep them from going feral, or how in StarCraft the Zerg have Overlords (for gameplay reasons).
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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I think factions really started forming after Hugh was exposed to indivuality. That created the first true splinter faction of the Borg. Then we had the Cooperative in Voyager, followed by Unimatrix 0 getting liberated. Queen Jurati's faction in Picard would make a 4th faction.
After Hugh, it was really Voyager who enabled the formation of splinter groups as the Collective had been one massive hive mind entity before that. The existence of the Queens seems to indicate basically mobile control nodes. Kinda like how in Warhammer 40k the Tyranids have Synaps Creatures that can exert control over lower tier Tyranids to keep them from going feral, or how in StarCraft the Zerg have Overlords (for gameplay reasons).
I'd say the Borg queens are more like mobile versions of the Zerg Cerabrates then the Overlords (the overlords give no commands but are more repeater stations for the Cerabrates).
Also, the USS Defiant was not a Defiant class at first, so it's not like this is a new thing.
Sure back when all Federation starships were Constitution class From ST: III and beyond, the first ship in a new class bore the name, like the Excelsior. Post TNG we had the Defiant which was the first Defiant class starship. Same with the Galaxy. I guess the new writers are not that familiar with Trek lore.
Odds are by the early 25th Century the Intrepid class USS Intrepid was probably decomissioned or destroyed and a new USS Intrepid commissioned as a member of this new class. Not unheard of in Star Trek for a ship name to be attached to different classes. Just look at Enterprise.
I suppose that is possible this is a new Intrepid class, but the linked artwork does not appear to reflect that. As far as the NX class Enterprise, it was quite a long time before the TNG era where there were less than a handful of ship classes.
And considering that the Intrepid was the pathfinder ship of the Intrepid class, mostly likely in the late 2360s/early 2370s... and considering the time period in which Picard s3 takes place in... we are talking upwards of 20-30 years since the Intrepid Class was first commissioned. And we have no idea what the actual lifespan of that class is.
One would think that newer, more modern classes of ships would have a much greater service life than something like the antiquated Miranda class, which from what we saw was still in service in the TNG era and beyond. Seems a bit silly to say that something like the Intrepid class starships were outdated after only 20 years of service when the Miranda was still in use after 80 plus years.
Except that after 20 years a severe fault in the intrepid class design could have been found and scrapping them all was easier than refit.
I think the inclusion of the Pioneer class into canon now invalidates the argument of there only being Connies in TOS era. Not only that, pretty good chance the DSC era ships were still in use by the 2260s. Its just possible that the Enterprise under Kirk didn't run into them out on the frontier as much as they might encounter another Connie.
When did a Pioneer class appear on TOS? If it did, I do not remember it.
The existence of a class does not exclude a name from being used with other classes of ship. That would be like saying "Well we have the Excelsior, but the Excelsior class has been out of production for a hundred years. We can't use that name because of the class that bears her name." That makes no sense in universe and out.
I never suggested that a name could not be used anywhere except a specific class of ship. I was merely pointing out what has been canon for going on 40 years. Also, while the original Excelsior class may be out of production, there has also been Excelsior refits, Constitution refits etc.
We also have to consider the exact nature of that particular time period, as well as the unknown fate of the Intrepid herself. Again... we don't know what happened to her. The existence of this new Intrepid indicates one of two fates for the previous one. Decommissioned or Destroyed.
What does the time period have to do with the antiquated Miranda class having 4 times the service life of a more modern Intrepid class? The first Defiant was destroyed and then another Defiant class ship was renamed to Defiant. Same with the Constitution Refit Enterprise. Maybe that only happens to hero ships.
That depends on how it was built - despite numerous attempts over the decades, I believe the A-10 Warthog is STILL in service...either because all of its purported replacements either failed to measure up or the Air Force damn near rioted at the dumbass boor-e-crat's attempts to replace their workhorse.
The Miranda could easily have been the A-10 and the Intrepid like...I don't know - the F-117 Nighthawk, which didn't even make it 30 years as a combat aircraft.
I could see that as a possibility and a good analogy. Seems to me though that Starfleet would want to be efficient and get as much as possible out of their ships. To regress design wise with regard to longevity of service life and build ships that only lasted 20 years tops whereas older models had quadruple the service life does not make a lot of sense. That is an awful waste of resources and effort.
look at todays cars versus 20, 30,40,50 years back they now are ready for the junk yard in 3-7 years where as each generation before lasted a few more years. would a starship be any different? could the intrepid class not be a faulty design from just after or just before or both of a ship building rennisance?
I remember cars 50 years back. They actually lasted for less time than modern cars; you're probably too young to remember "body cancer". Modern car materials, besides being lighter, are also more durable than those old steel shells.
Which does raise the possibility that advances in both warp theory and materials science may have simply rendered the Intrepid-class, so cutting edge in her day, obsolete.
I remember cars 50 years back. They actually lasted for less time than modern cars; you're probably too young to remember "body cancer". Modern car materials, besides being lighter, are also more durable than those old steel shells.
Which does raise the possibility that advances in both warp theory and materials science may have simply rendered the Intrepid-class, so cutting edge in her day, obsolete.
Another possibility (as we do see ships older then Intrepid-class still in service (in both STO and PIC) is that something in the Intrepid-class design made those harder to upgrade then even older ships.
For example those Bio-neural gel packs made the Main computers on the Intrepid-class more powerful then other ships but meant you had to individually program the Main Computers on each ship in the Intrepid-class, to account for the minor variations caused by using biological material, while those using standard Isolinear chips could be bulk programmed and the Gel packs weren't powerful enough to be worth the extra effort but at same time too integrated into systems of Intrepid-class ship to be replaced.
This is obviously speculation but would explain why Starfleet got rid of the Intrepids (which didn't seem that common to begin seeing as well saw only 2 "certain" and 1 "probably" during pre-2004 canon.
EDIT:After all being in the cutting edge sometimes means you come up with things that in a second thought weren't such great ideas like nuclear powered cars IRL.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,687Community Moderator
I think it was the Variable Geometry Warp Nacelles that might have made construction of the Intrepid class a bit more complicated. Voyager proved that the class was quite capable and adaptable, even in a case of isolation. However the extra moving parts needed for the Variable Geometry probably complicated production. It was an attempt to help limit the damage being done to subspace as seen in TNG when some aliens in subspace complain about the damage being done by ships at high warp.
We can assume that more efficient systems were developed as the only class to utilize Variable Geometry is the Intrepid class.
In short, its likely that overengineering of her propulsion systems is a contributing factor.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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Except that after 20 years a severe fault in the intrepid class design could have been found and scrapping them all was easier than refit.
Is there a canon source for this somewhere?
Of course there isn't. That's what "could have been" means.
Also, in re: the post just before that, "planned obsolescence" was indeed a thing with cars 50 years ago. I remember - I'm an Old, after all. (And in many cases, you didn't even need planning. Try to find, say, a '73 Chevy Nova that's still in driveable condition, aside from perhaps Jay Leno's garage. Or a '73 Ford Capri, a car I rather wanted when I was a child as it was what passed for "sleek" back in the day and I was ignorant of its multiple mechanical issues.)
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Jem'Hadar Borg would be inevitable if the Dominon is even a fraction of the size that Weyoun claimed in his disinformation to the Federation in DS9 since the Borg territory in VOY straddled the Delta/Gamma border the way the Federation does the Alpha/Beta border. It is actually surprising that they do not have a lot more J'H drones, though their lifespan may be rather short as quick-grow bio-constructs which could tend to limit their numbers somewhat compared to longer-lived-species drones.
It wouldn't surprise me if they chose not to assimilate them. The Jem'Hadar aren't really culturally distinctive - and we know that the Borg don't consider the Kazon worth assimilating, and they're culturally a lot more interesting than the Jem'Hadar.
It wouldn't surprise me if they chose not to assimilate them. The Jem'Hadar aren't really culturally distinctive - and we know that the Borg don't consider the Kazon worth assimilating, and they're culturally a lot more interesting than the Jem'Hadar.
The Jem'Hadar Shroud ability might attract their attention. The question though is if Assimilated Jem'Hadar are still dependant on Ketracel or not. I honestly don't think they would be because of Borg Nanoprobes and Genetic Alteration, but we honestly just don't know.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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It seems like STO's divergence starts around Picard season 3 Episode 8,
since Data/M-5-10 is still alive in STO
Um it diverged from PICARD S1 episode 3 as:
The living version of Data in STO is in the physical body of B-4 from Star Trek: Nemesis. Yes it ended up in the Daystrom Annex in PICARD S3 - but they also showed that B-4 had been disassembled (IE the same pieces/set props in PICARD S3 Episode 8); in PICARD S1 Episode 3. There's also the fact that in the Iconian War mission line - 7of9 is still more like her default Voyager series self, and never mentions her Fenris Ranger stint. So yeah, STO's been 'Prime Divergant' way before Picard S3.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
It seems like STO's divergence starts around Picard season 3 Episode 8,
since Data/M-5-10 is still alive in STO
Um it diverged from PICARD S1 episode 3 as:
The living version of Data in STO is in the physical body of B-4 from Star Trek: Nemesis. Yes it ended up in the Daystrom Annex in PICARD S3 - but they also showed that B-4 had been disassembled (IE the same pieces/set props in PICARD S3 Episode 8); in PICARD S1 Episode 3. There's also the fact that in the Iconian War mission line - 7of9 is still more like her default Voyager series self, and never mentions her Fenris Ranger stint. So yeah, STO's been 'Prime Divergant' way before Picard S3.
The Seven of Nine part is irrelevant since it is just speech and mannerisms that she could just be using in those operations because the locals expect her to speak and act that way because of historical records of Voyagers passage and so perhaps she uses that familiarity to grease the wheels a bit.
The Data stuff could be a bit more of a problem, but even that is not insurmountable since if they ever get around to making the hybrid synth version of Data it would probably be easy enough to substitute that model for the current one in the old scenarios.
In fact, it is easier to do than reconciling the "dead" Data from PIC season one with the live one in STO. Personally, I just ignore the look of the current STO data and assume it is just a placeholder for the new canon one and move on with the missions.
I think factions really started forming after Hugh was exposed to indivuality. That created the first true splinter faction of the Borg. Then we had the Cooperative in Voyager, followed by Unimatrix 0 getting liberated. Queen Jurati's faction in Picard would make a 4th faction.
After Hugh, it was really Voyager who enabled the formation of splinter groups as the Collective had been one massive hive mind entity before that. The existence of the Queens seems to indicate basically mobile control nodes. Kinda like how in Warhammer 40k the Tyranids have Synaps Creatures that can exert control over lower tier Tyranids to keep them from going feral, or how in StarCraft the Zerg have Overlords (for gameplay reasons).
The Borg Queen being like the Norn Queen in how she exerts control.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Comments
Normally i would agree cause yes the Borg have been planned since VIL. However that was what 4yrs ago. I just timing odd
Also, in the shows the Borg are not completely a monolithic collective, there have been a number of splinter groups shown even before NuTrek came out. In fact, some of the dialog in First Contact mentions that the queen (as played by Alice Kreige in various Treks) is mostly software and constructed in the field where the collective needs to operate with more precise oversight than usual in some area (and implies that the distance from their normal territory and the failures of other methods could have been a factor in creating the particular one in the movie).
Or something along those lines anyway, though she was saying it to make the heroes despair the fact that no matter what they did they could not destroy her except for one instance of her out of many and she would be back any time she chose to do so, but the implications were clear enough.
As for design language, Hollywood already has revisionist thinking on the brain too much already. No need to limit a show to one particular ship design aesthetic, being inclusive is much, much more realistic than a monolithic aesthetic could ever be.
After Hugh, it was really Voyager who enabled the formation of splinter groups as the Collective had been one massive hive mind entity before that. The existence of the Queens seems to indicate basically mobile control nodes. Kinda like how in Warhammer 40k the Tyranids have Synaps Creatures that can exert control over lower tier Tyranids to keep them from going feral, or how in StarCraft the Zerg have Overlords (for gameplay reasons).
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colored text = mod mode
Except that after 20 years a severe fault in the intrepid class design could have been found and scrapping them all was easier than refit.
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look at todays cars versus 20, 30,40,50 years back they now are ready for the junk yard in 3-7 years where as each generation before lasted a few more years. would a starship be any different? could the intrepid class not be a faulty design from just after or just before or both of a ship building rennisance?
galacticguards.enjin.com/
Formerly Jewkesman Member from Nov 2009!
Which does raise the possibility that advances in both warp theory and materials science may have simply rendered the Intrepid-class, so cutting edge in her day, obsolete.
Another possibility (as we do see ships older then Intrepid-class still in service (in both STO and PIC) is that something in the Intrepid-class design made those harder to upgrade then even older ships.
For example those Bio-neural gel packs made the Main computers on the Intrepid-class more powerful then other ships but meant you had to individually program the Main Computers on each ship in the Intrepid-class, to account for the minor variations caused by using biological material, while those using standard Isolinear chips could be bulk programmed and the Gel packs weren't powerful enough to be worth the extra effort but at same time too integrated into systems of Intrepid-class ship to be replaced.
This is obviously speculation but would explain why Starfleet got rid of the Intrepids (which didn't seem that common to begin seeing as well saw only 2 "certain" and 1 "probably" during pre-2004 canon.
EDIT:After all being in the cutting edge sometimes means you come up with things that in a second thought weren't such great ideas like nuclear powered cars IRL.
We can assume that more efficient systems were developed as the only class to utilize Variable Geometry is the Intrepid class.
In short, its likely that overengineering of her propulsion systems is a contributing factor.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Also, in re: the post just before that, "planned obsolescence" was indeed a thing with cars 50 years ago. I remember - I'm an Old, after all. (And in many cases, you didn't even need planning. Try to find, say, a '73 Chevy Nova that's still in driveable condition, aside from perhaps Jay Leno's garage. Or a '73 Ford Capri, a car I rather wanted when I was a child as it was what passed for "sleek" back in the day and I was ignorant of its multiple mechanical issues.)
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A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
It wouldn't surprise me if they chose not to assimilate them. The Jem'Hadar aren't really culturally distinctive - and we know that the Borg don't consider the Kazon worth assimilating, and they're culturally a lot more interesting than the Jem'Hadar.
The Jem'Hadar Shroud ability might attract their attention. The question though is if Assimilated Jem'Hadar are still dependant on Ketracel or not. I honestly don't think they would be because of Borg Nanoprobes and Genetic Alteration, but we honestly just don't know.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Um it diverged from PICARD S1 episode 3 as:
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
The Data stuff could be a bit more of a problem, but even that is not insurmountable since if they ever get around to making the hybrid synth version of Data it would probably be easy enough to substitute that model for the current one in the old scenarios.
In fact, it is easier to do than reconciling the "dead" Data from PIC season one with the live one in STO. Personally, I just ignore the look of the current STO data and assume it is just a placeholder for the new canon one and move on with the missions.
The Borg Queen being like the Norn Queen in how she exerts control.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius