However, i was referring to the "instakill" levels of DPS. There may be uses for it in some situations. But not all, and certainly not in inappropriate situations like lower level group content and public access arenas.
Not sure I would use the word inappropriate there. Unintended is a better descriptor. To continue rehashing that is not useful in my opinion as I think it safe to say most will agree that high DPS builds are not intended for normal content and for most advanced level content. The question is how to incentivize those players into more challenging content that is specifically designed for it.
I see your point.
As for incentivizing players, that's above my pay grade. I could offer all the suggestions in the world, and i do have a bunch of them. But they will only be of any use if someone who is able to enact the the necessary changes is willing to hear them and do something with them.
Herein lies the limit of forum discussions. And unfortunately the root of forum arguments and disagreements. Everyone has a valid opinion, and possibly some great ideas, but very few find enough common ground to make a difference. Add to that my previously hinted at speed bump of developer interest/dis-interest which is all too common.
Also, i have no real idea how to placate the mega DPS crowd, i achieve as much DPS as i need, to do the content i want to do. High level DPS has'nt been interesting to me since TFO's were called STF's, or possibly earlier. I just don't know what they might find enticing.
Edit;
Let me add to this comment by stating that i don't believe that the legitimate DPS chasers are the problem. I tend to think that it's individuals using high DPS builds without considering the consequences of their actions/behavior. I also tend to think that adding more Elite level content wo'nt solve the problem either. There is already Elite level content that is seriously underutilized as it is.
Think everyone needs to step back for a moment. Its getting a bit close to heated argument in here.
Personally I feel that using Infected as a "benchmark" is questionable. You got four other variables (the rest of the team) that can tip your DPS up or down depending on what BOff abilities are used.
I admit I always panic when I see a Vaadwaur Juggernaut in an Infected run because most of the time they're so powerful they vaporize things just by LOOKING at them. And I got a decent build myself.
The whole issue is kind of a double edged sword.
Do some people get enjoyment out of min-maxing and getting the absolute best out of their builds? Yes
Does it adversely affect some other players? Yes.
Is their fun wrong? No.
Players can reach rather amazing levels of destruction. The problem really is that they don't have anywhere to really put it to the test. On top of that, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were less interested in testing their DPS as they were gunning for quick rewards. And unfortunately Infected is pretty straight forward and can be nuked. In fact I'm pretty sure the original three Borg TFOs are all easy to nuke with a top end DPS build.
Again I would like to say that their fun is not wrong. However I wish those people were a bit more mindful of other players and their capabilities as accidentally AFKing members of the team can adversely affect those players.
Having a ship set up with massive DPS can be a trophy for a player. A mark of pride or something. But there is a fine line before it crosses into epeen ego territory. Its not just the build that can be a problem. Its the attitude of the Player using it that can be just as much of a problem. But that is a whole 'nother can of worms.
I admit I see DPS chases as little more than speed runs at this point, in fact once you realize the highest DPS numbers are always when the run is super short, well the conclusion for me was every DPS chase is just a speed run. Because when I tried to DPS parse in infected advanced I saw my highest damage SPIKE was insanely high but then the run would take long enough my DPS average plummeted. For it to have remained high the runs would have to resolve much more quickly, and if your the only high DPS person and everyone else is low, your own DPS also gets lower for it. So I think DPS parsing is kind of a farce, just a speed run in disguise. And all speed runs are all or nothing(except charity events).
I'll sometimes joke on my own more powerful builds(directed at the npcs that i'm gonna vaporize), but I do so in jest. I took my most destructive character into an elite wanted patrol and destroyed it for the first time without dying, I felt it was an achievement, but I also don't think elite RTO's would be necessarily interesting. The only difference between advanced wanted and elite wanted seemed to be little more than health pools. It's an adjustment made to pander to extreme damage output, rather than smarter AI. In all honesty I don't think STO is a good game when it comes to difficulty; many times unless it's a "die if you stay here" mechanic, often you can get destroyed before you even had a chance to react. I remember the saitama torpedoes when I started playing just after Victory is life release came out (one shotted by an escort npc torpedo, yeah that was fun, or torpedo spread from a frigate taking me from full shield/hull down to like 20% hull and no tier 6 ship available for a newbie like me at the time). It isn't really imo, hard in a GOOD way necessarily. I mean enemies can feedback pulse instantly and destroy you before you can even see they have activated feedback pulse as another example.
Ultimately, the game is in an off situation; we have a ton of power creep and the difficulties only serve to accommodate that, but its otherwise a game that becomes very easy and doesn't seem fun when it is hard.
To the OP: If a RFO ends way to fast, as long as you didn't get hit with an idler penalty and can still join another random TFO, i'd be greatful its over fast. Sure it wasn't as fun but you at least won't be doing that TFO again for a while. Honestly, I hate the borg TFO's, I get them far to often when I play random in fact, borg TFO's coming up 90% of the time(not even an exageration) is one of the contributers towards my absenses from this game, that and non-stop-events.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
Think everyone needs to step back for a moment. Its getting a bit close to heated argument in here.
Personally I feel that using Infected as a "benchmark" is questionable. You got four other variables (the rest of the team) that can tip your DPS up or down depending on what BOff abilities are used.
I admit I always panic when I see a Vaadwaur Juggernaut in an Infected run because most of the time they're so powerful they vaporize things just by LOOKING at them. And I got a decent build myself.
The whole issue is kind of a double edged sword.
Do some people get enjoyment out of min-maxing and getting the absolute best out of their builds? Yes
Does it adversely affect some other players? Yes.
Is their fun wrong? No.
Players can reach rather amazing levels of destruction. The problem really is that they don't have anywhere to really put it to the test. On top of that, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were less interested in testing their DPS as they were gunning for quick rewards. And unfortunately Infected is pretty straight forward and can be nuked. In fact I'm pretty sure the original three Borg TFOs are all easy to nuke with a top end DPS build.
Again I would like to say that their fun is not wrong. However I wish those people were a bit more mindful of other players and their capabilities as accidentally AFKing members of the team can adversely affect those players.
Having a ship set up with massive DPS can be a trophy for a player. A mark of pride or something. But there is a fine line before it crosses into epeen ego territory. Its not just the build that can be a problem. Its the attitude of the Player using it that can be just as much of a problem. But that is a whole 'nother can of worms.
I admit I see DPS chases as little more than speed runs at this point, in fact once you realize the highest DPS numbers are always when the run is super short, well the conclusion for me was every DPS chase is just a speed run. Because when I tried to DPS parse in infected advanced I saw my highest damage SPIKE was insanely high but then the run would take long enough my DPS average plummeted. For it to have remained high the runs would have to resolve much more quickly, and if your the only high DPS person and everyone else is low, your own DPS also gets lower for it. So I think DPS parsing is kind of a farce, just a speed run in disguise. And all speed runs are all or nothing(except charity events).
There are two sides to it sustained DPS and spike DPS. ISE has got so short its turned into spike DPS runs where speed matters. While HSE is long enough that the DPS measured represents sustained DPS and speed doesn't matter so much. If your DPS is only high when its resolved quickly then you don't really have high sustained DPS.
Yeah and I suspect most high level DPS players don't want to build a ship purposely built to be as bad and unusable as possible to nerf all those traits and bonuses they've gotten just for the event that is. For a challenge of "Make this unviable build work" they might but not just for the event and quite frankly I don't blame them either.
"Making an unviable build work" is about the same as saying "make something not capable of working successfully work successfully."
I don't think I'd want to make my bicycle or lawnmower or laptop "as bad and unusable as possible" so this makes little sense to me.
"As bad and unusable as possible" =/= "not minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible DPS".
Try to keep in mind that many players, myself included, aren't necessarily "minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible dps" nor are we necessarily elite level or dps players.
Also, there are many of us that really haven't much in the way of traits / consoles / bonuses / endeavor rank to be nerfed.
Everybody has the option to use things that all players have access to in ways that can be successful.
Prot, if you're instakilling everything on the map before "lesser" ships can even move, you're minmaxed to the gills and might want to consider having a secondary, less minmaxed build available for Event TFOs. You can fly more than one ship, you know.
(And since this seems to need to be said lately: If you're not instakilling everything on the map, this clearly isn't about you. As someone I respect is fond of saying, "If it don't apply, let it fly.")
One of the points I was trying to get across is that there is so much powercreep that we don't need to be minmaxed to the gills to instakill everything. We can do as little as 10% of the highest possible dps and still be instakilling everything. Even my hangar pets are instakilling everything. I have already scaled my ship back to 3 front weapons and 3 back weapons and removed all tactical consoles that boost crit damage and crit chance and I still intakill everything on normal. I have none of the meta high end starship traits fitted and my torpedoes and mines are often some of the weakest types in game for DPS like Tricobalt or Plasma.
Think everyone needs to step back for a moment. Its getting a bit close to heated argument in here.
Personally I feel that using Infected as a "benchmark" is questionable. You got four other variables (the rest of the team) that can tip your DPS up or down depending on what BOff abilities are used.
I admit I always panic when I see a Vaadwaur Juggernaut in an Infected run because most of the time they're so powerful they vaporize things just by LOOKING at them. And I got a decent build myself.
The whole issue is kind of a double edged sword.
Do some people get enjoyment out of min-maxing and getting the absolute best out of their builds? Yes
Does it adversely affect some other players? Yes.
Is their fun wrong? No.
Players can reach rather amazing levels of destruction. The problem really is that they don't have anywhere to really put it to the test. On top of that, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were less interested in testing their DPS as they were gunning for quick rewards. And unfortunately Infected is pretty straight forward and can be nuked. In fact I'm pretty sure the original three Borg TFOs are all easy to nuke with a top end DPS build.
Again I would like to say that their fun is not wrong. However I wish those people were a bit more mindful of other players and their capabilities as accidentally AFKing members of the team can adversely affect those players.
Having a ship set up with massive DPS can be a trophy for a player. A mark of pride or something. But there is a fine line before it crosses into epeen ego territory. Its not just the build that can be a problem. Its the attitude of the Player using it that can be just as much of a problem. But that is a whole 'nother can of worms.
I admit I see DPS chases as little more than speed runs at this point, in fact once you realize the highest DPS numbers are always when the run is super short, well the conclusion for me was every DPS chase is just a speed run. Because when I tried to DPS parse in infected advanced I saw my highest damage SPIKE was insanely high but then the run would take long enough my DPS average plummeted. For it to have remained high the runs would have to resolve much more quickly, and if your the only high DPS person and everyone else is low, your own DPS also gets lower for it. So I think DPS parsing is kind of a farce, just a speed run in disguise. And all speed runs are all or nothing(except charity events).
There are two sides to it sustained DPS and spike DPS. ISE has got so short its turned into spike DPS runs where speed matters. While HSE is long enough that the DPS measured represents sustained DPS and speed doesn't matter so much. If your DPS is only high when its resolved quickly then you don't really have high sustained DPS.
On the DPS I certainly realize that in retrospect my sustained isn't as high as I'd like(far from it), or at least in the parses I did at the time, I have no way of knowing 100% without having done Elite Infected conduit which I probably never will. Only reason I bring up augmented and shorter times bringing bursts out was because I watched him a lot for advice on doing better, and certainly my gameplay improved significantly because of him. Only comments I ever got on my dps in-game was "You'd probably score higher in elite, enemies are dying to fast before your getting to do anything".
I was mostly just saying DPS runs are still though effectively speedruns, even if you have a high sustained dps. Your still even indirectly trying to end the TFO faster. Many newer TFO's instead rely on enemies respawning endlessly and faster when they are destroyed by high DPS. On normal I one shot them and even advanced I often destroy them faster than they can do anything in randoms, it's enough for me and gets the job done. Any higher DPS is kind of pointless for me as a consequence.
The rest of my points though kind of still stand that the game is effectively a "Funner when it's easier", its probably why we have a lot of DPS chasers and few other styles of play. And when it does turn out to be hard in some content players struggle to see whats destroying them, either from the combat still being more or less dice roles or particle effects obscuring attacks/effects ect. Lack of telegraphing available or lack of even seeing anything happening.
So many players just make up for it by chasing extremely high dps, you don't need to learn all the mechanics when the enemy is destroyed so fast those mechanics never come into play in the first place. Just as on the other end of the spectrum when your destroyed super fast you cannot see what destroys you. So we have this situation, DPS has been focused on so much it's gotten so high everywhere that some TFO's end ridiculously fast.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
There is already Elite level content that is seriously underutilized as it is.
Why it is so underutilized though? Rewards are not good enough? Too boring? How do you get more players to run it? I think adding Elite level TFOs into the Random selection would be a good start.
I really used to love elite a loooong time ago until it was ruined with arbitrary fail conditions. Elite never needed fail conditions! I would love to play it now if we weren't required to insta vape our way through elite due to some pointless timer, I WANT longer tougher battles again like the old days and old elite delivered that! But nowadays, its law you can't do that in Elite, insta vape is the law... so it feels like, whats the point...
My builds would be plenty good to play current-day elite but the timers and such need to go. On the other paw, I can solo most advanced content easily currently, so I'm that in between state where advanced is too easy and elite is just far too hardcore and unfun due to arbitrary fail rules.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,424Community Moderator
Cryptic could try a stat squish, but that really only kicks the can down the road, and affects everyone. And the last time we had a jump on the NPC side... well... I still remember the fires of Delta Rising. I was there... *'nam flashbacks*
For the Elite content, we probably do need more options that reward better. The problem is how do we make it viable without enticing players who are not ready to jump in because of said better rewards?
Any kind of "gear score" is an automatic no because that has been used way too many times in other games to discriminate. And I do have a friend who has faced different forms of discirmination when he played WoW, mostly from elitists who had their own websites. Yea he COULD do things, but "unless you have a rating on OUR website, GTFO NooB."
I hate to say it but we got one helluva complex issue that could spiral in many directions. How do you encourage something without enabling toxic behavior? How do you solve problems without alienating players on one side, the other, or both?
*off-topic: I love the pic on your signature; I can't help but giggle every time I see it.
On-topic:
...and to echo what someone else on this thread has already stated: some of us don't have the money to just buy our way into the "gud" status.
Think everyone needs to step back for a moment. Its getting a bit close to heated argument in here.
Personally I feel that using Infected as a "benchmark" is questionable. You got four other variables (the rest of the team) that can tip your DPS up or down depending on what BOff abilities are used.
I admit I always panic when I see a Vaadwaur Juggernaut in an Infected run because most of the time they're so powerful they vaporize things just by LOOKING at them. And I got a decent build myself.
The whole issue is kind of a double edged sword.
Do some people get enjoyment out of min-maxing and getting the absolute best out of their builds? Yes
Does it adversely affect some other players? Yes.
Is their fun wrong? No.
Players can reach rather amazing levels of destruction. The problem really is that they don't have anywhere to really put it to the test. On top of that, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were less interested in testing their DPS as they were gunning for quick rewards. And unfortunately Infected is pretty straight forward and can be nuked. In fact I'm pretty sure the original three Borg TFOs are all easy to nuke with a top end DPS build.
Again I would like to say that their fun is not wrong. However I wish those people were a bit more mindful of other players and their capabilities as accidentally AFKing members of the team can adversely affect those players.
Having a ship set up with massive DPS can be a trophy for a player. A mark of pride or something. But there is a fine line before it crosses into epeen ego territory. Its not just the build that can be a problem. Its the attitude of the Player using it that can be just as much of a problem. But that is a whole 'nother can of worms.
Isn't starbase 234 exactly designed for single player DPS testing?
From a game designer stand point (i used to work in the game industry a long time ago), the quick solution to keep the DPS folks happy, and the casual players happy would be to do the following...at least in my eyes.
1: The Omega Reputation or "The Borg One". It's one of if not the first reputation that people work through. From Tier 1 until completion of Tier 5 the character is locked to "Normal" TFO's for Borg. Upon completion of Tier 5 you are locked OUT of Normal and can only do Advanced. Upon completion of Tier 6 you can unlock Elite.
so you complete tier 6 of the rep and get locked out of normal.. and you are only doing 10-20K DPS. The game is toxic enough with the uberDPSers screaming GIT GUD because you are not one-shotting spheres in normal TFOs; Imagine the fith that will spew if you are forced into advanced. and yes I have had that happen on more than a few times. one reason I won't play random TFOs I know the data is out there to the devs.. I would LOVE to see a chart of the percentage of players doing damage ranges.. I think most in this thread don't realize at least HALF the players are probably doing sub 50K
We Want Vic Fontaine
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,424Community Moderator
Isn't starbase 234 exactly designed for single player DPS testing?
While the Devs have, last I heard, been testing some sort of in game DPS testing location, there is no official one on Holodeck as of yet. And I do believe they were considering Starbase 234 as the location for it.
So really the only real single player DPS test is just how quickly you can mow down mobs in patrols, or seeing how many waves you blow through in certain patrols like Rescue and Search.
The Red Alerts are a classic example of the power creep open for all to see. I remember a time when the Borg Red Alert was at least partially difficult. Today i seen something the size of a shuttle take out the lower left hand group of a borg cube and three spheres. The entire Red Alert lasted just over 1 minute.
The Tholian one used to drag on for ages, not anymore though, that lasted about 2 to 3 mins. I was lucky to get a shot off in the borg one.
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
To the OP: If a RFO ends way to fast, as long as you didn't get hit with an idler penalty and can still join another random TFO, i'd be greatful its over fast. Sure it wasn't as fun but you at least won't be doing that TFO again for a while. Honestly, I hate the borg TFO's, I get them far to often when I play random in fact, borg TFO's coming up 90% of the time(not even an exageration) is one of the contributers towards my absenses from this game, that and non-stop-events.
Yeah, i know what you're saying.
The 30's TFO itself was not the issue, nor was it being yet another in a long line of them going back years.
It was simply the fact that it is happening more often and spilling out into other parts of the game where normal average players are being effected by it.
You guys don't hear about it here as much because most of the playing population don't ever visit these forums. There are quite a few large playing groups around that don't bother to mention their issues here because they don't believe it will make a difference. And i'm talking about whole fleets worth of people here.
*off-topic: I love the pic on your signature; I can't help but giggle every time I see it.
On-topic:
...and to echo what someone else on this thread has already stated: some of us don't have the money to just buy our way into the "gud" status.
I don't know what was said here, but to add to the reply.
I have been lucky enough to be able to drop a stupid amount of money and time into this game because i feel it's worth it, to me.
I have however decided to limit my own impact on the other players around me out of sheer decency. I've felt the impact of people who abuse the game mechanics without thinking, and i've had conversations with too many people who have as well.
I'm starting to think that the people who dislike power creep discussions the most are scared of losing the power creep, and/or the ability to abuse it.
This game used to have a maximum DPS ceiling and power creep was never an issue. That ceiling was governed by the available equipment and players builds, which at the time were admittedly limited.
MKXV gear , t6 ships and the masses of t6 ship traits in combination with the masses of reputation traits and all the possible synergies that can achieved have pushed the criticals and even the raw damage stats way past the level of what the content was intended to handle.
some of us don't have the money to just buy our way into the "gud" status.
I used to think the same way. However my current understanding is that while there are some advantages "for sale" (i.e. traits) that can help, the larger gains can't necessarily be purchased but rather come with attention to detail and a whole lot of practice.
Ok, i got in contact with an old acquaintance who used to play STO, following the DPS league crowd to the upper limits, and explained the story behind my current dilemma concerning the "Power Creep/Instakill" dilemma. His initial reply was, "Don't bother, i don't think they care".
However, he did say that if the devs do happen to be interested, Elite versions of content other than TFO's. TFO's alone becomes monotonous at best, hence why they don't get used much.
Adding Elite difficulty versions of most, if not all open ended group content like Battlezones and Patrols ...etc, the Tzenkethi zone is not cutting it these days, targets are being evaporated quickly in there now under the current DPS meta. The Dyson, Undine and Terran zones are not even a consideration for high end challenges.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,424Community Moderator
Adding Elite difficulty versions of most, if not all open ended group content like Battlezones and Patrols ...etc, the Tzenkethi zone is not cutting it these days, targets are being evaporated quickly in there now under the current DPS meta. The Dyson, Undine and Terran zones are not even a consideration for high end challenges.
Considering the open nature of the Battlezones... there are no Advanced or Elite versions as you don't queue up for them. You just go in and boom, you're in.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Adding Elite difficulty versions of most, if not all open ended group content like Battlezones and Patrols ...etc, the Tzenkethi zone is not cutting it these days, targets are being evaporated quickly in there now under the current DPS meta. The Dyson, Undine and Terran zones are not even a consideration for high end challenges.
Considering the open nature of the Battlezones... there are no Advanced or Elite versions as you don't queue up for them. You just go in and boom, you're in.
Could they then perhaps, once you click to go in, ask if you want normal, advanced or elite before shuttling you in?
Now a LTS and loving it.
Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,424Community Moderator
I suppose it is possible. At least in theory. I don't know how things are coded or set up so I can't say for sure one way or the other.
Having a higher difficulty Battlezone or two might sound appealing to anyone who is too overpowered for the existing ones.
Either way, the idea is there if needed.
For newish toons the Tzenketti BZ can be considered a higher difficulty,at least until you learn their tricks.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Defera was set up a bit different perhaps due to it's age. The "difficulty" levels, easy/medium/hard, don't have their own instances but the "hards" require a team of 3-5 and spawn more/different enemies.
No idea what it would take to have higher difficulty options in other battle zones but with dev time being at a premium don't think I'd like having to forgo new missions, ships, outfits, etc. just to satisfy what is probably a small handful of players who believe "instakills" are an issue. It might be cheaper and easier to do something like not forcing players to play on normal difficulty during events.
Patrols already come in all three difficulty levels.
Defera was set up a bit different perhaps due to it's age. The "difficulty" levels, easy/medium/hard, don't have their own instances but the "hards" require a team of 3-5 and spawn more/different enemies.
No idea what it would take to have higher difficulty options in other battle zones but with dev time being at a premium don't think I'd like having to forgo new missions, ships, outfits, etc. just to satisfy what is probably a small handful of players who believe "instakills" are an issue. It might be cheaper and easier to do something like not forcing players to play on normal difficulty during events.
Patrols already come in all three difficulty levels.
There are only a few people on this forum that think instakills is an issue, but this is not the only active STO community. In fact the population on this forum is only a small percentage of the active population as a whole. There are whole fleets of people who never visit this forum, let alone leave comments here. The only reason i'm here is because i hear about and experience this issue often, and felt it needed to be addressed on the official forums. Most folks i speak to don't think its worth the effort to report the issue here because of the amount of resistance they are likely encounter.
I understand the frustration of being forced into lower level events, that's just the way they were presented to us.
The problem itself is that some players can achieve ridiculous amounts of DPS output, but with nowhere to use it effectively without stepping on the toes of the regular players who can't compete at that level. There is nothing wrong with that much power, provided you have somewhere sensible to use it. Throwing it around in low level group content is not very considerate or thoughtful.
Some will inevitably wave it around like a toddler with a gun. But most will at least attempt to consider their fellow players.
There are only a few people on this forum that think instakills is an issue, but this is not the only active STO community.
I get the feeling (anecdotally) that the majority of regular forum posters fall into the higher end of DPS users. I also feel (again anecdotally) a lot of these people are unaware of this.
I guess the question is, and it's one for the devs really, 'what is Elite?' or 'what is Advanced?' Are we saying that to be elite, you have to be doing 500k DPS? Or are we saying that Elite is 100k DPS? I think this is the crux of the problem, and it's why there are some people saying that there's no problem, and some people saying that there is.
I don't use a parser, never do Elite content, and have never had an AFK penalty (other than that time I got stuck inside an asteroid) - I don't consider any of my builds to be 'optimum', but I've been playing for years, and know how to do most of the TFOs now. It'd be interesting to see where I fall on the scale.
I get the feeling (anecdotally) that the majority of regular forum posters fall into the higher end of DPS users.
No, not necessarily.
I guess the question is, and it's one for the devs really, 'what is Elite?' or 'what is Advanced?'
They are just two words. Play whatever level of difficulty you feel comfortable with.
Are we saying that to be elite, you have to be doing 500k DPS? Or are we saying that Elite is 100k DPS?
To play elite TFO's 100K is fine. To be elite, just purchase an elite captain training token.
One thing to try is to queue up a patrol that has waves of enemies such as the Ninth Rule. At what difficulty level do you find the final enemy groups a reasonable challenge?
I think this is the crux of the problem, and it's why there are some people saying that there's no problem, and some people saying that there is.
The OP seems to be on a bit of a crusade (some have had other words for this) and is playing the crowd.
I don't use a parser, never do Elite content, and have never had an AFK penalty (other than that time I got stuck inside an asteroid) - I don't consider any of my builds to be 'optimum', but I've been playing for years, and know how to do most of the TFOs now. It'd be interesting to see where I fall on the scale.
There seems to be a fair number of players in the 15-30K range.
The problem itself is that some players can achieve ridiculous amounts of DPS output, but with nowhere to use it effectively without stepping on the toes of the regular players who can't compete at that level. There is nothing wrong with that much power, provided you have somewhere sensible to use it.Throwing it around in low level group content is not very considerate or thoughtful.
Some will inevitably wave it around like a toddler with a gun. But most will at least attempt to consider their fellow players.
I wasn't sure if I was going to respond in here or not but after reading some of the latest stuff I feel I have to. This quotation as a whole, and especially the lines I've highlighted in bold or italics are the exact problem with this line of logic and thinking.
First up, who gets to define what is "somewhere sensible" and what isn't? This is the problem I have when threads like this pop up, given enough time they almost always show themselves as anti-dps crusaders trying to rid the game of DPSer oppression on those who "can't compete at that level" as though doing a ton of DPS somehow is wrong. You are not the arbiter of what is "sensible" and what isn't. If I wanted to bust out a 500k+ build and carry a friend who just started playing the game through some randoms, who are you or anyone else to tell me I shouldn't be allowed to do that?
This brings me to the two bits outlined in bold as it further demonstrates my issue with this anti-dps crusading some people do. People love to hide behind the whole "consider their fellow players" junk when talking about this stuff, while at the same time demanding that their fellow players be restricted because THEY have decided THEY don't like that other player doing something they don't like or can't do themselves.
On one hand you say "there is nothing wrong with having that much DPS" but on the other hand say "people are doing too much already and there needs to be a limit." Clearly you do believe there is a problem with having that much DPS or you wouldn't be advocating restrictions, so why beat around the bush? Why not just say it straight out of the gate that you think there is too much damage and it needs to be restricted?
It's the same song and dance every time I see people complaining about this stuff and it never changes. Someone comes on complaining about DPS being too high and needs to be restricted. Then when people post any kind of counter argument, the gaslighting comes out of "you just don't care about your fellow players."
It's disingenuous, hypocritical, downright dishonest, and jerkish when people pull that kind of a stunt. I have no issues with people voicing their opinions, thoughts, concerns or what have you, even if that opinion is that DPS is too high in game. What I DO have a problem with is when people try to say DPS is too high, then try to beat people over the head saying "you just don't care about your fellow players" when folks pose counter arguments. I would respect people who hold these opinions more if they would just straight up say from the start they want DPS limited because they don't like it vs trying to hide behind the "you just don't care about your fellow players" junk.
Again I am not responsible for the fun of other people, they alone are responsible for their own fun. I've worked years to perfect my craft in this game and I'm not crippling myself just to appease someone else. I hope I don't ever AFK someone when I go into a run but if it happens it happens. Only thing I can try to do is offer help to that person so it doesn't happen again. People with high DPS have just as much right to be in random TFOs or events like Red Alerts as the lower DPS people. So long as you meet the minimum requirements set forth by the game itself, you have a right to be in there. If a TFO requires a minimum of 15k from everyone on the team to clear it, and you're at the 15k minimum you have just as much right to be there as the guy doing 500k+.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
I understand what you're saying here. And also that this is a tired old subject that people want to just go away, and i get it.
Each player is responsible for their own actions, and how they choose to effect the people around them.
It is indeed the same old song and dance, and yes it never changes. But i firmly believe that these issues will never go away if it is never addressed properly. The repetition from my point of view is the sheer amount of opposition to resolving a genuine issue that is being generated by people who don't feel that this is an issue, or understand what is being said about this issue.
My statement that you quoted seems pretty clear to me. I don't know how i can make it any clearer for you. I'm also a little disappointed that i'm receiving such an unnecessarily personal attack from a community moderator. I was under the impression that moderators are here to moderate such behavior.
The inability to understand the complexities of this issue is in part why it is never going to be resolved by us, the regular forum users. These decisions are for the developers to make. Regular forum users can only serve to bring these issues to the attention of the developers using the provided official means, like the official forum.
Comments
I see your point.
As for incentivizing players, that's above my pay grade. I could offer all the suggestions in the world, and i do have a bunch of them. But they will only be of any use if someone who is able to enact the the necessary changes is willing to hear them and do something with them.
Herein lies the limit of forum discussions. And unfortunately the root of forum arguments and disagreements. Everyone has a valid opinion, and possibly some great ideas, but very few find enough common ground to make a difference. Add to that my previously hinted at speed bump of developer interest/dis-interest which is all too common.
Also, i have no real idea how to placate the mega DPS crowd, i achieve as much DPS as i need, to do the content i want to do. High level DPS has'nt been interesting to me since TFO's were called STF's, or possibly earlier. I just don't know what they might find enticing.
Edit;
Let me add to this comment by stating that i don't believe that the legitimate DPS chasers are the problem. I tend to think that it's individuals using high DPS builds without considering the consequences of their actions/behavior. I also tend to think that adding more Elite level content wo'nt solve the problem either. There is already Elite level content that is seriously underutilized as it is.
I admit I see DPS chases as little more than speed runs at this point, in fact once you realize the highest DPS numbers are always when the run is super short, well the conclusion for me was every DPS chase is just a speed run. Because when I tried to DPS parse in infected advanced I saw my highest damage SPIKE was insanely high but then the run would take long enough my DPS average plummeted. For it to have remained high the runs would have to resolve much more quickly, and if your the only high DPS person and everyone else is low, your own DPS also gets lower for it. So I think DPS parsing is kind of a farce, just a speed run in disguise. And all speed runs are all or nothing(except charity events).
I'll sometimes joke on my own more powerful builds(directed at the npcs that i'm gonna vaporize), but I do so in jest. I took my most destructive character into an elite wanted patrol and destroyed it for the first time without dying, I felt it was an achievement, but I also don't think elite RTO's would be necessarily interesting. The only difference between advanced wanted and elite wanted seemed to be little more than health pools. It's an adjustment made to pander to extreme damage output, rather than smarter AI. In all honesty I don't think STO is a good game when it comes to difficulty; many times unless it's a "die if you stay here" mechanic, often you can get destroyed before you even had a chance to react. I remember the saitama torpedoes when I started playing just after Victory is life release came out (one shotted by an escort npc torpedo, yeah that was fun, or torpedo spread from a frigate taking me from full shield/hull down to like 20% hull and no tier 6 ship available for a newbie like me at the time). It isn't really imo, hard in a GOOD way necessarily. I mean enemies can feedback pulse instantly and destroy you before you can even see they have activated feedback pulse as another example.
Ultimately, the game is in an off situation; we have a ton of power creep and the difficulties only serve to accommodate that, but its otherwise a game that becomes very easy and doesn't seem fun when it is hard.
To the OP: If a RFO ends way to fast, as long as you didn't get hit with an idler penalty and can still join another random TFO, i'd be greatful its over fast. Sure it wasn't as fun but you at least won't be doing that TFO again for a while. Honestly, I hate the borg TFO's, I get them far to often when I play random in fact, borg TFO's coming up 90% of the time(not even an exageration) is one of the contributers towards my absenses from this game, that and non-stop-events.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
On the DPS I certainly realize that in retrospect my sustained isn't as high as I'd like(far from it), or at least in the parses I did at the time, I have no way of knowing 100% without having done Elite Infected conduit which I probably never will. Only reason I bring up augmented and shorter times bringing bursts out was because I watched him a lot for advice on doing better, and certainly my gameplay improved significantly because of him. Only comments I ever got on my dps in-game was "You'd probably score higher in elite, enemies are dying to fast before your getting to do anything".
I was mostly just saying DPS runs are still though effectively speedruns, even if you have a high sustained dps. Your still even indirectly trying to end the TFO faster. Many newer TFO's instead rely on enemies respawning endlessly and faster when they are destroyed by high DPS. On normal I one shot them and even advanced I often destroy them faster than they can do anything in randoms, it's enough for me and gets the job done. Any higher DPS is kind of pointless for me as a consequence.
The rest of my points though kind of still stand that the game is effectively a "Funner when it's easier", its probably why we have a lot of DPS chasers and few other styles of play. And when it does turn out to be hard in some content players struggle to see whats destroying them, either from the combat still being more or less dice roles or particle effects obscuring attacks/effects ect. Lack of telegraphing available or lack of even seeing anything happening.
So many players just make up for it by chasing extremely high dps, you don't need to learn all the mechanics when the enemy is destroyed so fast those mechanics never come into play in the first place. Just as on the other end of the spectrum when your destroyed super fast you cannot see what destroys you. So we have this situation, DPS has been focused on so much it's gotten so high everywhere that some TFO's end ridiculously fast.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
I really used to love elite a loooong time ago until it was ruined with arbitrary fail conditions. Elite never needed fail conditions! I would love to play it now if we weren't required to insta vape our way through elite due to some pointless timer, I WANT longer tougher battles again like the old days and old elite delivered that! But nowadays, its law you can't do that in Elite, insta vape is the law... so it feels like, whats the point...
My builds would be plenty good to play current-day elite but the timers and such need to go. On the other paw, I can solo most advanced content easily currently, so I'm that in between state where advanced is too easy and elite is just far too hardcore and unfun due to arbitrary fail rules.
For the Elite content, we probably do need more options that reward better. The problem is how do we make it viable without enticing players who are not ready to jump in because of said better rewards?
Any kind of "gear score" is an automatic no because that has been used way too many times in other games to discriminate. And I do have a friend who has faced different forms of discirmination when he played WoW, mostly from elitists who had their own websites. Yea he COULD do things, but "unless you have a rating on OUR website, GTFO NooB."
I hate to say it but we got one helluva complex issue that could spiral in many directions. How do you encourage something without enabling toxic behavior? How do you solve problems without alienating players on one side, the other, or both?
On-topic:
...and to echo what someone else on this thread has already stated: some of us don't have the money to just buy our way into the "gud" status.
Isn't starbase 234 exactly designed for single player DPS testing?
so you complete tier 6 of the rep and get locked out of normal.. and you are only doing 10-20K DPS. The game is toxic enough with the uberDPSers screaming GIT GUD because you are not one-shotting spheres in normal TFOs; Imagine the fith that will spew if you are forced into advanced. and yes I have had that happen on more than a few times. one reason I won't play random TFOs I know the data is out there to the devs.. I would LOVE to see a chart of the percentage of players doing damage ranges.. I think most in this thread don't realize at least HALF the players are probably doing sub 50K
While the Devs have, last I heard, been testing some sort of in game DPS testing location, there is no official one on Holodeck as of yet. And I do believe they were considering Starbase 234 as the location for it.
So really the only real single player DPS test is just how quickly you can mow down mobs in patrols, or seeing how many waves you blow through in certain patrols like Rescue and Search.
The Tholian one used to drag on for ages, not anymore though, that lasted about 2 to 3 mins. I was lucky to get a shot off in the borg one.
Yeah, i know what you're saying.
The 30's TFO itself was not the issue, nor was it being yet another in a long line of them going back years.
It was simply the fact that it is happening more often and spilling out into other parts of the game where normal average players are being effected by it.
You guys don't hear about it here as much because most of the playing population don't ever visit these forums. There are quite a few large playing groups around that don't bother to mention their issues here because they don't believe it will make a difference. And i'm talking about whole fleets worth of people here.
I don't know what was said here, but to add to the reply.
I have been lucky enough to be able to drop a stupid amount of money and time into this game because i feel it's worth it, to me.
I have however decided to limit my own impact on the other players around me out of sheer decency. I've felt the impact of people who abuse the game mechanics without thinking, and i've had conversations with too many people who have as well.
I'm starting to think that the people who dislike power creep discussions the most are scared of losing the power creep, and/or the ability to abuse it.
This game used to have a maximum DPS ceiling and power creep was never an issue. That ceiling was governed by the available equipment and players builds, which at the time were admittedly limited.
MKXV gear , t6 ships and the masses of t6 ship traits in combination with the masses of reputation traits and all the possible synergies that can achieved have pushed the criticals and even the raw damage stats way past the level of what the content was intended to handle.
I used to think the same way. However my current understanding is that while there are some advantages "for sale" (i.e. traits) that can help, the larger gains can't necessarily be purchased but rather come with attention to detail and a whole lot of practice.
However, he did say that if the devs do happen to be interested, Elite versions of content other than TFO's. TFO's alone becomes monotonous at best, hence why they don't get used much.
Adding Elite difficulty versions of most, if not all open ended group content like Battlezones and Patrols ...etc, the Tzenkethi zone is not cutting it these days, targets are being evaporated quickly in there now under the current DPS meta. The Dyson, Undine and Terran zones are not even a consideration for high end challenges.
Considering the open nature of the Battlezones... there are no Advanced or Elite versions as you don't queue up for them. You just go in and boom, you're in.
Having a higher difficulty Battlezone or two might sound appealing to anyone who is too overpowered for the existing ones.
Either way, the idea is there if needed.
It's all normal now since Defera hasn't been touched once since it was released, of course, but it can be done.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Could they then perhaps, once you click to go in, ask if you want normal, advanced or elite before shuttling you in?
For newish toons the Tzenketti BZ can be considered a higher difficulty,at least until you learn their tricks.
No idea what it would take to have higher difficulty options in other battle zones but with dev time being at a premium don't think I'd like having to forgo new missions, ships, outfits, etc. just to satisfy what is probably a small handful of players who believe "instakills" are an issue. It might be cheaper and easier to do something like not forcing players to play on normal difficulty during events.
Patrols already come in all three difficulty levels.
There are only a few people on this forum that think instakills is an issue, but this is not the only active STO community. In fact the population on this forum is only a small percentage of the active population as a whole. There are whole fleets of people who never visit this forum, let alone leave comments here. The only reason i'm here is because i hear about and experience this issue often, and felt it needed to be addressed on the official forums. Most folks i speak to don't think its worth the effort to report the issue here because of the amount of resistance they are likely encounter.
I understand the frustration of being forced into lower level events, that's just the way they were presented to us.
The problem itself is that some players can achieve ridiculous amounts of DPS output, but with nowhere to use it effectively without stepping on the toes of the regular players who can't compete at that level. There is nothing wrong with that much power, provided you have somewhere sensible to use it. Throwing it around in low level group content is not very considerate or thoughtful.
Some will inevitably wave it around like a toddler with a gun. But most will at least attempt to consider their fellow players.
They are just two words. Play whatever level of difficulty you feel comfortable with.
To play elite TFO's 100K is fine. To be elite, just purchase an elite captain training token.
One thing to try is to queue up a patrol that has waves of enemies such as the Ninth Rule. At what difficulty level do you find the final enemy groups a reasonable challenge?
The OP seems to be on a bit of a crusade (some have had other words for this) and is playing the crowd.
There seems to be a fair number of players in the 15-30K range.
Yes, as a prime example, It's difficult to learn those tricks if the Tzenkethi are being instantly vaporized by overpowered players.
It's possible.
Please try to keep your comments relevant to the discussion at hand.
This kind of judgmental attitude is precisely why most people do not bring their concerns to the official forum.
P.S. Edit; Enduring personal judgment on an offical forum is not beneficial to this discussion or the forum community.
I wasn't sure if I was going to respond in here or not but after reading some of the latest stuff I feel I have to. This quotation as a whole, and especially the lines I've highlighted in bold or italics are the exact problem with this line of logic and thinking.
First up, who gets to define what is "somewhere sensible" and what isn't? This is the problem I have when threads like this pop up, given enough time they almost always show themselves as anti-dps crusaders trying to rid the game of DPSer oppression on those who "can't compete at that level" as though doing a ton of DPS somehow is wrong. You are not the arbiter of what is "sensible" and what isn't. If I wanted to bust out a 500k+ build and carry a friend who just started playing the game through some randoms, who are you or anyone else to tell me I shouldn't be allowed to do that?
This brings me to the two bits outlined in bold as it further demonstrates my issue with this anti-dps crusading some people do. People love to hide behind the whole "consider their fellow players" junk when talking about this stuff, while at the same time demanding that their fellow players be restricted because THEY have decided THEY don't like that other player doing something they don't like or can't do themselves.
On one hand you say "there is nothing wrong with having that much DPS" but on the other hand say "people are doing too much already and there needs to be a limit." Clearly you do believe there is a problem with having that much DPS or you wouldn't be advocating restrictions, so why beat around the bush? Why not just say it straight out of the gate that you think there is too much damage and it needs to be restricted?
It's the same song and dance every time I see people complaining about this stuff and it never changes. Someone comes on complaining about DPS being too high and needs to be restricted. Then when people post any kind of counter argument, the gaslighting comes out of "you just don't care about your fellow players."
It's disingenuous, hypocritical, downright dishonest, and jerkish when people pull that kind of a stunt. I have no issues with people voicing their opinions, thoughts, concerns or what have you, even if that opinion is that DPS is too high in game. What I DO have a problem with is when people try to say DPS is too high, then try to beat people over the head saying "you just don't care about your fellow players" when folks pose counter arguments. I would respect people who hold these opinions more if they would just straight up say from the start they want DPS limited because they don't like it vs trying to hide behind the "you just don't care about your fellow players" junk.
Again I am not responsible for the fun of other people, they alone are responsible for their own fun. I've worked years to perfect my craft in this game and I'm not crippling myself just to appease someone else. I hope I don't ever AFK someone when I go into a run but if it happens it happens. Only thing I can try to do is offer help to that person so it doesn't happen again. People with high DPS have just as much right to be in random TFOs or events like Red Alerts as the lower DPS people. So long as you meet the minimum requirements set forth by the game itself, you have a right to be in there. If a TFO requires a minimum of 15k from everyone on the team to clear it, and you're at the 15k minimum you have just as much right to be there as the guy doing 500k+.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I understand what you're saying here. And also that this is a tired old subject that people want to just go away, and i get it.
Each player is responsible for their own actions, and how they choose to effect the people around them.
It is indeed the same old song and dance, and yes it never changes. But i firmly believe that these issues will never go away if it is never addressed properly. The repetition from my point of view is the sheer amount of opposition to resolving a genuine issue that is being generated by people who don't feel that this is an issue, or understand what is being said about this issue.
My statement that you quoted seems pretty clear to me. I don't know how i can make it any clearer for you. I'm also a little disappointed that i'm receiving such an unnecessarily personal attack from a community moderator. I was under the impression that moderators are here to moderate such behavior.
The inability to understand the complexities of this issue is in part why it is never going to be resolved by us, the regular forum users. These decisions are for the developers to make. Regular forum users can only serve to bring these issues to the attention of the developers using the provided official means, like the official forum.