To be fair, it's not marik whom I called a troll, but the OP. That's good for marik, btw, but then, why did he bring it up here? If his build is so specific in style, that it can't handle the content, is it really the games "problem"?
Cause i've seen he used the "problem" word. We don't have a problem.
And yeah i admit, i got carried away a bit, obviously . But this whole topic is still ridiculous.
This does not work for a variety of reasons. First, why would you assume that people who have never completed an Omega rep project are incapable of advanced or elite content?
For that matter, as I was trying to point out, having completed an Omega rep project doesn't indicate you are capable of Advanced or Elite content. All you need is time, Reputation (which is all you get as account rewards if you have a Gamma recruit anyway), and the patience for all that clicking. That's how I got up to Tier 6 on everything except Competitive on my main - I did that mostly so I can do that flashy "show all your badges" thing at ESD and Drozana (feels too crowded to do that at DS9). I mean, I'll take the Grace Hopper into an Advanced TFO if folks I'm hanging with insist, but in Elite, I'd just be a drag on them, because I didn't "earn" those Rep points by running TFOs and gearing myself appropriately. (Might take the Lorna Wing too, but that's probably an even worse idea. I love my Yorktown-class, but she has her limitations.)
Like a bunch of people yelling at the ocean to stop making waves.
It's just an inevitability. Even this conversation is reductive and can't be constructive. All it can do is build animosity when everyone is like children angry that they have to grow into adults.
A company ill do whatever it can to make money, and their target audience is the ones that can give them said money. So being upset about it is just reductive. Without the company you have no game; unless your ideal outcome is to not have a game. The moment it became free to play and no longer subscription modeled then this was an inevitable outcome. Getting angry over it is just strange.
And the strangest part of it all is... the interaction is only 5-10 minutes of your day. You guys really want to build animosity and disgust for each other over 10 minutes of your day arguing over an inevitability built by the company owners?
Some people have and some people don't. It is absolutely not a skill factor. Because no matter how skilled you are, you are limited by your output. You can't overcome power with skill. So i'm not sure why people believe power is a skill. Or that skill can overcome power. It can't. It won't.
So personally the overall value of this conversation to me seems to be a construct to vent a little. But you really cant have a public struggle session because it will brush up against others that take offense to it.
No matter how i see it, you cant fix this, the toothpaste is already out the tube. The devs knew this would be the case and told the owners and the owners weighed it and considered this to be worth the outcome.
This conversation can't be had on the forum because no matter how you look at it, you are asking the game to take from someone else so that you can be happy but you are saying its for the community, its not. Its for you. Specifically. All you can do really is take it for what it is. A small blip in your day and move on.
And the strangest part of it all is... the interaction is only 5-10 minutes of your day. You guys really want to build animosity and disgust for each other over 10 minutes of your day arguing over an inevitability built by the company owners?
But its not just 10 minutes a day. I lost 1 hour 30mins due to the powercreep problem while running the current event. That's 1 hour 30mins I would not have lost if the devs allowed us to run Elite version of the event like they used to.
Powercreep has been happening for years but its only in the past 6 months or so that I noticed its starting to have a negative impact on players and I experienced it myself. Forcing players down to normal with the current level of power creep is causing problems.
Like a bunch of people yelling at the ocean to stop making waves.
It's just an inevitability. Even this conversation is reductive and can't be constructive. All it can do is build animosity when everyone is like children angry that they have to grow into adults.
A company ill do whatever it can to make money, and their target audience is the ones that can give them said money. So being upset about it is just reductive. Without the company you have no game; unless your ideal outcome is to not have a game. The moment it became free to play and no longer subscription modeled then this was an inevitable outcome. Getting angry over it is just strange.
And the strangest part of it all is... the interaction is only 5-10 minutes of your day. You guys really want to build animosity and disgust for each other over 10 minutes of your day arguing over an inevitability built by the company owners?
Some people have and some people don't. It is absolutely not a skill factor. Because no matter how skilled you are, you are limited by your output. You can't overcome power with skill. So i'm not sure why people believe power is a skill. Or that skill can overcome power. It can't. It won't.
So personally the overall value of this conversation to me seems to be a construct to vent a little. But you really cant have a public struggle session because it will brush up against others that take offense to it.
No matter how i see it, you cant fix this, the toothpaste is already out the tube. The devs knew this would be the case and told the owners and the owners weighed it and considered this to be worth the outcome.
This conversation can't be had on the forum because no matter how you look at it, you are asking the game to take from someone else so that you can be happy but you are saying its for the community, its not. Its for you. Specifically. All you can do really is take it for what it is. A small blip in your day and move on.
Yes, i agree completely.
As long as these issues are discussed solely by the players, it will never be resolved, simply because we are not in a position to implement any changes.
But, i started this thread, here on the official forums as a reminder to anyone who can make the necessary changes that this is still a relevant issue. Because that's what official forums are for, at least they used to be.
However, having said that, power creep in itself is not my real concern, it is after all inevitable to a certain degree.
The part of the power creep issue that stands out plainly is the available DPS ceiling.
The maximum available DPS that any player can achieve using the legitimate game mechanics, and the fact that it is spilling out of the Elite content that is designed to handle it, and into rest of the game where it is way too much DPS for the current content, and the average player who exists there.
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. We have ship slots, loadouts and alt characters to build with, pulling the content out from under the average player is unnecessary, at best.
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. We have ship slots, loadouts and alt characters to build with, pulling the content out from under the average player is unnecessary, at best.
This is the only reason for this thread.
You say no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. But its not like we have an option. We cannot turn off lots of the major DPS buffs and power creep that we have unlocked over the years. A lot of it is permanently on once unlocked. That's why I play Elite but the event is forcing us down to normal where I have no choice but to take a completely over powered ship into the content.
We used to be able to do events on Elite maps, I have no idea what the reason was for stopping this. All I can say is I find forcing everyone into normal has ruined events.
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. We have ship slots, loadouts and alt characters to build with, pulling the content out from under the average player is unnecessary, at best.
This is the only reason for this thread.
You say no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. But its not like we have an option. We cannot turn off lots of the major DPS buffs and power creep that we have unlocked over the years. A lot of it is permanently on once unlocked. That's why I play Elite but the event is forcing us down to normal where I have no choice but to take a completely over powered ship into the content.
We used to be able to do events on Elite maps, I have no idea what the reason was for stopping this. All I can say is I find forcing everyone into normal has ruined events.
Well, yes. I agree with you.
Having the events set up like that is unfortunate and unavoidable. Even advanced level players will still be blasting through normal level content.
It's the Advanced level TFO's and Battlezones that are most affected by rampant DPS spillage. There really isn't anywhere outside of Elite TFO's and maybe PVP arenas for those high level players to go. Also unfortunate and currently unavoidable.
However, as to the built in DPS buffs and power creep that we build into our main characters. That can be worked around by creating alt characters, or our main characters can have other lower tier ships using lower level gear to compensate for the dps overspill.
I did mention previously that i have lower level ships set up specifically for just that purpose, mainly because Elite tier content is not as popular as it could be. So i have taken it upon myself to limit my own output to compensate for the 11 years worth of gear, buffs and traits that i have collected. I feel that i have more than enough options available to me so that i don't step on anyone elses fun.
I hope this helps to clear up my motivations and reasoning.
And as long as the people who are able to make changes, are made aware of any potential issues, that's really all that matters.
If they are'nt informed or reminded by the actively playing community, then it may never be addressed, if it is at all possible to be addressed.
ps; And as a quick side note, do recall some folks regularly running as a pre-built team, taking t1 connies and oberths into STF's just purely for challenge and some giggles.
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. We have ship slots, loadouts and alt characters to build with, pulling the content out from under the average player is unnecessary, at best.
This is the only reason for this thread.
You say no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. But its not like we have an option. We cannot turn off lots of the major DPS buffs and power creep that we have unlocked over the years. A lot of it is permanently on once unlocked. That's why I play Elite but the event is forcing us down to normal where I have no choice but to take a completely over powered ship into the content.
We used to be able to do events on Elite maps, I have no idea what the reason was for stopping this. All I can say is I find forcing everyone into normal has ruined events.
Well, yes. I agree with you.
Having the events set up like that is unfortunate and unavoidable. Even advanced level players will still be blasting through normal level content.
It's the Advanced level TFO's and Battlezones that are most affected by rampant DPS spillage. There really isn't anywhere outside of Elite TFO's and maybe PVP arenas for those high level players to go. Also unfortunate and currently unavoidable.
However, as to the built in DPS buffs and power creep that we build into our main characters. That can be worked around by creating alt characters, or our main characters can have other lower tier ships using lower level gear to compensate for the dps overspill.
I did mention previously that i have lower level ships set up specifically for just that purpose, mainly because Elite tier content is not as popular as it could be. So i have taken it upon myself to limit my own output to compensate for the 11 years worth of gear, buffs and traits that i have collected. I feel that i have more than enough options available to me so that i don't step on anyone elses fun.
I hope this helps to clear up my motivations and reasoning.
And as long as the people who are able to make changes, are made aware of any potential issues, that's really all that matters.
If they are'nt informed or reminded by the actively playing community, then it may never be addressed, if it is at all possible to be addressed.
Not sure asking players onto alts is a workable solution. First of all my investment is into my main toon. I know we are all different but I am one of those people who like to focus on 1 toon only and have no interested in secondary toons. Additionally don't my unlocked buffs activate automatically on secondary toons? Things like 12.5% Crit chance, 50% crit damage, 50% weapon damage and all the others forced on for veteran players and even swapping toons wont remove them.
As for limiting ourselves I already do that to an extent and its not really having any impact. My main is flying Carriers, 3/3 carriers at that and for main weapons I run a Tricobalt boat. Most would consider these two of the weakest options in game yet I am still way beyond the requirements for normal even with the extra step which I have done of removing the popular fleet tactical consoles that boost crit chance or damage.
I can only strip back so far before ruining my own fun and even if I strip back to a base ship with base gear I am going to be doing triple the DPS of what I used to do when I started the game. Anyway Stripping back any further will make it feel like what is the point in playing. I don't see asking players to strip back or change setups as a useful solution to the problem. There has to be a better solution.
Well, everyone has valid arguments as to why the suggestions i came up with would only partially work or not work at all. Good points. Let me tell you what has happened over the past two weeks of me coming back.
Two weeks ago i said to some old alliance friends that i was coming back to STO, four of them decided to also pop in after a 4 year break.
Out of the 4 who came back, all of them quit within the space of 2 days after seeing the massive disparity between them and the new higher DPS ranges. Two of them spent hundreds, if not thousands of UK £'s on this game in the past. That's two whales that said "Nope" and walked away within 48 hours.
As for myself, i found a good alliance fleet recently, i have never really been a DPS chaser either, i just want a ship good enough to manage the advanced TFO randoms.
Is the disparity causing a major problem? No, not really if you look at it from Joe Blogs "Casual Gamer" perspective, sure, sometimes he might be accidentally AFK'ed cause he cant get a shot off in a TFO, but that's about it. However being an ex dev i recall the one single word which terrorises game developers and publishers. Entropy.
ST:O is 13 years old. Entropy is around the corner, the decline in numbers which needs two things to stop it, and one of those things is ex players returning...especially ex whale players who spend cash that goes into Cryptics coffers. If what i have seen with those 4 old friends is anything to go by, Cryptic have a problem which is now approaching, and if i was at Cryptic's studios right now, i would be worried about what happens 2 to 3 years from now.
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
Not sure asking players onto alts is a workable solution. First of all my investment is into my main toon. I know we are all different but I am one of those people who like to focus on 1 toon only and have no interested in secondary toons. Additionally don't my unlocked buffs activate automatically on secondary toons? Things like 12.5% Crit chance, 50% crit damage, 50% weapon damage and all the others forced on for veteran players and even swapping toons wont remove them.
As for limiting ourselves I already do that to an extent and its not really having any impact. My main is flying Carriers, 3/3 carriers at that and for main weapons I run a Tricobalt boat. Most would consider these two of the weakest options in game yet I am still way beyond the requirements for normal even with the extra step which I have done of removing the popular fleet tactical consoles that boost crit chance or damage.
I can only strip back so far before ruining my own fun and even if I strip back to a base ship with base gear I am going to be doing triple the DPS of what I used to do when I started the game. Anyway Stripping back any further will make it feel like what is the point in playing. I don't see asking players to strip back or change setups as a useful solution to the problem. There has to be a better solution.
Yes, again i agree with you.
There are limits to what a person can and will do to be able to enjoy a game.
Until a developer made solution is implemented, it really all boils down to player choice. what they are able to do verses what they want to do, and the grey areas in between.
There will always be power creep, there will always be people seeking to push the boundaries of what is possible, and also what is acceptable. That is the individuals choice to make.
And i try to keep reminding myself that not everyone has the time or resources to make a bunch of different characters with ships and equipment to suit.
Well, everyone has valid arguments as to why the suggestions i came up with would only partially work or not work at all. Good points. Let me tell you what has happened over the past two weeks of me coming back.
Two weeks ago i said to some old alliance friends that i was coming back to STO, four of them decided to also pop in after a 4 year break.
Out of the 4 who came back, all of them quit within the space of 2 days after seeing the massive disparity between them and the new higher DPS ranges. Two of them spent hundreds, if not thousands of UK £'s on this game in the past. That's two whales that said "Nope" and walked away within 48 hours.
As for myself, i found a good alliance fleet recently, i have never really been a DPS chaser either, i just want a ship good enough to manage the advanced TFO randoms.
Is the disparity causing a major problem? No, not really if you look at it from Joe Blogs "Casual Gamer" perspective, sure, sometimes he might be accidentally AFK'ed cause he cant get a shot off in a TFO, but that's about it. However being an ex dev i recall the one single word which terrorises game developers and publishers. Entropy.
ST:O is 13 years old. Entropy is around the corner, the decline in numbers which needs two things to stop it, and one of those things is ex players returning...especially ex whale players who spend cash that goes into Cryptics coffers. If what i have seen with those 4 old friends is anything to go by, Cryptic have a problem which is now approaching, and if i was at Cryptic's studios right now, i would be worried about what happens 2 to 3 years from now.
I had a few discussions with past fleet mates that read alot like this, also one of the catalysts for this long winded discussion.
I don't expect it to make a difference. I don't even know if it's possible to fix, but it does'nt hurt to try, or ask.
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. We have ship slots, loadouts and alt characters to build with, pulling the content out from under the average player is unnecessary, at best.
This is the only reason for this thread.
You say no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. But its not like we have an option. We cannot turn off lots of the major DPS buffs and power creep that we have unlocked over the years. A lot of it is permanently on once unlocked. That's why I play Elite but the event is forcing us down to normal where I have no choice but to take a completely over powered ship into the content.
We used to be able to do events on Elite maps, I have no idea what the reason was for stopping this. All I can say is I find forcing everyone into normal has ruined events.
Thanks for mentioning this. Being on a normal difficulty map for events has presented issues the past while both on the ground and in space.
Things haven't enough hit points at this level which can make playing without disturbing others challenging.
Yeah and I suspect most high level DPS players don't want to build a ship purposely built to be as bad and unusable as possible to nerf all those traits and bonuses they've gotten just for the event that is. For a challenge of "Make this unviable build work" they might but not just for the event and quite frankly I don't blame them either.
Yeah and I suspect most high level DPS players don't want to build a ship purposely built to be as bad and unusable as possible to nerf all those traits and bonuses they've gotten just for the event that is. For a challenge of "Make this unviable build work" they might but not just for the event and quite frankly I don't blame them either.
"Making an unviable build work" is about the same as saying "make something not capable of working successfully work successfully."
I don't think I'd want to make my bicycle or lawnmower or laptop "as bad and unusable as possible" so this makes little sense to me.
"As bad and unusable as possible" =/= "not minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible DPS".
Try to keep in mind that many players, myself included, aren't necessarily "minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible dps" nor are we necessarily elite level or dps players.
Also, there are many of us that really haven't much in the way of traits / consoles / bonuses / endeavor rank to be nerfed.
Everybody has the option to use things that all players have access to in ways that can be successful.
Yeah and I suspect most high level DPS players don't want to build a ship purposely built to be as bad and unusable as possible to nerf all those traits and bonuses they've gotten just for the event that is. For a challenge of "Make this unviable build work" they might but not just for the event and quite frankly I don't blame them either.
"Making an unviable build work" is about the same as saying "make something not capable of working successfully work successfully."
I don't think I'd want to make my bicycle or lawnmower or laptop "as bad and unusable as possible" so this makes little sense to me.
"As bad and unusable as possible" =/= "not minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible DPS".
Try to keep in mind that many players, myself included, aren't necessarily "minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible dps" nor are we necessarily elite level or dps players.
Also, there are many of us that really haven't much in the way of traits / consoles / bonuses / endeavor rank to be nerfed.
Everybody has the option to use things that all players have access to in ways that can be successful.
Prot, if you're instakilling everything on the map before "lesser" ships can even move, you're minmaxed to the gills and might want to consider having a secondary, less minmaxed build available for Event TFOs. You can fly more than one ship, you know.
(And since this seems to need to be said lately: If you're not instakilling everything on the map, this clearly isn't about you. As someone I respect is fond of saying, "If it don't apply, let it fly.")
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content.
Sure there are. Limited playtime being one. Sometimes you only have a few minutes to play and need some quick marks or complete an endeavor. I am certain others can contribute a whole host of valid reasons beyond what has already been shared in the thread.
I do not think you will ever be able to eliminate high DPS players in normal or advanced RTFOs, nor do I think that should be a goal. More challenging content with the right level of incentive to play it is a better option in my opinion.
Yes, you are correct.
However, i was referring to the "instakill" levels of DPS. There may be uses for it in some situations. But not all, and certainly not in inappropriate situations like lower level group content and public access arenas.
As for the comment itself, it has now been taken out of context by multiple quotes. Here's the entire quote, in context.
Like a bunch of people yelling at the ocean to stop making waves.
It's just an inevitability. Even this conversation is reductive and can't be constructive. All it can do is build animosity when everyone is like children angry that they have to grow into adults.
A company ill do whatever it can to make money, and their target audience is the ones that can give them said money. So being upset about it is just reductive. Without the company you have no game; unless your ideal outcome is to not have a game. The moment it became free to play and no longer subscription modeled then this was an inevitable outcome. Getting angry over it is just strange.
And the strangest part of it all is... the interaction is only 5-10 minutes of your day. You guys really want to build animosity and disgust for each other over 10 minutes of your day arguing over an inevitability built by the company owners?
Some people have and some people don't. It is absolutely not a skill factor. Because no matter how skilled you are, you are limited by your output. You can't overcome power with skill. So i'm not sure why people believe power is a skill. Or that skill can overcome power. It can't. It won't.
So personally the overall value of this conversation to me seems to be a construct to vent a little. But you really cant have a public struggle session because it will brush up against others that take offense to it.
No matter how i see it, you cant fix this, the toothpaste is already out the tube. The devs knew this would be the case and told the owners and the owners weighed it and considered this to be worth the outcome.
This conversation can't be had on the forum because no matter how you look at it, you are asking the game to take from someone else so that you can be happy but you are saying its for the community, its not. Its for you. Specifically. All you can do really is take it for what it is. A small blip in your day and move on.
Yes, i agree completely.
As long as these issues are discussed solely by the players, it will never be resolved, simply because we are not in a position to implement any changes.
But, i started this thread, here on the official forums as a reminder to anyone who can make the necessary changes that this is still a relevant issue. Because that's what official forums are for, at least they used to be.
However, having said that, power creep in itself is not my real concern, it is after all inevitable to a certain degree.
The part of the power creep issue that stands out plainly is the available DPS ceiling.
The maximum available DPS that any player can achieve using the legitimate game mechanics, and the fact that it is spilling out of the Elite content that is designed to handle it, and into rest of the game where it is way too much DPS for the current content, and the average player who exists there.
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. We have ship slots, loadouts and alt characters to build with, pulling the content out from under the average player is unnecessary, at best.
Yeah and I suspect most high level DPS players don't want to build a ship purposely built to be as bad and unusable as possible to nerf all those traits and bonuses they've gotten just for the event that is. For a challenge of "Make this unviable build work" they might but not just for the event and quite frankly I don't blame them either.
"Making an unviable build work" is about the same as saying "make something not capable of working successfully work successfully."
I don't think I'd want to make my bicycle or lawnmower or laptop "as bad and unusable as possible" so this makes little sense to me.
"As bad and unusable as possible" =/= "not minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible DPS".
Try to keep in mind that many players, myself included, aren't necessarily "minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible dps" nor are we necessarily elite level or dps players.
Also, there are many of us that really haven't much in the way of traits / consoles / bonuses / endeavor rank to be nerfed.
Everybody has the option to use things that all players have access to in ways that can be successful.
Prot, if you're instakilling everything on the map before "lesser" ships can even move, you're minmaxed to the gills and might want to consider having a secondary, less minmaxed build available for Event TFOs. You can fly more than one ship, you know.
Jon, yes I realize that I can fly more than one ship. I hear ya about perhaps trying to make a few changes in order to slow things down. You could be right. It's a matter of perspective.
Instead of detuning things another solution might be to offer event maps at all difficulty levels to give players the option to dial in whatever degree of challenge they'd like ?
(And since this seems to need to be said lately: If you're not instakilling everything on the map, this clearly isn't about you. As someone I respect is fond of saying, "If it don't apply, let it fly.")
Good advice. It really depends upon the difficulty level of the map. No instakills on elite, some on advanced, most of the time on normal.
However, i was referring to the "instakill" levels of DPS. There may be uses for it in some situations. But not all, and certainly not in inappropriate situations like lower level group content and public access arenas.
Not sure I would use the word inappropriate there. Unintended is a better descriptor. To continue rehashing that is not useful in my opinion as I think it safe to say most will agree that high DPS builds are not intended for normal content and for most advanced level content. The question is how to incentivize those players into more challenging content that is specifically designed for it.
I see your point.
As for incentivizing players, that's above my pay grade. I could offer all the suggestions in the world, and i do have a bunch of them. But they will only be of any use if someone who is able to enact the the necessary changes is willing to hear them and do something with them.
Herein lies the limit of forum discussions. And unfortunately the root of forum arguments and disagreements. Everyone has a valid opinion, and possibly some great ideas, but very few find enough common ground to make a difference. Add to that my previously hinted at speed bump of developer interest/dis-interest which is all too common.
Also, i have no real idea how to placate the mega DPS crowd, i achieve as much DPS as i need, to do the content i want to do. High level DPS has'nt been interesting to me since TFO's were called STF's, or possibly earlier. I just don't know what they might find enticing.
Edit;
Let me add to this comment by stating that i don't believe that the legitimate DPS chasers are the problem. I tend to think that it's individuals using high DPS builds without considering the consequences of their actions/behavior. I also tend to think that adding more Elite level content wo'nt solve the problem either. There is already Elite level content that is seriously underutilized as it is.
Think everyone needs to step back for a moment. Its getting a bit close to heated argument in here.
Personally I feel that using Infected as a "benchmark" is questionable. You got four other variables (the rest of the team) that can tip your DPS up or down depending on what BOff abilities are used.
I admit I always panic when I see a Vaadwaur Juggernaut in an Infected run because most of the time they're so powerful they vaporize things just by LOOKING at them. And I got a decent build myself.
The whole issue is kind of a double edged sword.
Do some people get enjoyment out of min-maxing and getting the absolute best out of their builds? Yes
Does it adversely affect some other players? Yes.
Is their fun wrong? No.
Players can reach rather amazing levels of destruction. The problem really is that they don't have anywhere to really put it to the test. On top of that, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were less interested in testing their DPS as they were gunning for quick rewards. And unfortunately Infected is pretty straight forward and can be nuked. In fact I'm pretty sure the original three Borg TFOs are all easy to nuke with a top end DPS build.
Again I would like to say that their fun is not wrong. However I wish those people were a bit more mindful of other players and their capabilities as accidentally AFKing members of the team can adversely affect those players.
Having a ship set up with massive DPS can be a trophy for a player. A mark of pride or something. But there is a fine line before it crosses into epeen ego territory. Its not just the build that can be a problem. Its the attitude of the Player using it that can be just as much of a problem. But that is a whole 'nother can of worms.
I admit I see DPS chases as little more than speed runs at this point, in fact once you realize the highest DPS numbers are always when the run is super short, well the conclusion for me was every DPS chase is just a speed run. Because when I tried to DPS parse in infected advanced I saw my highest damage SPIKE was insanely high but then the run would take long enough my DPS average plummeted. For it to have remained high the runs would have to resolve much more quickly, and if your the only high DPS person and everyone else is low, your own DPS also gets lower for it. So I think DPS parsing is kind of a farce, just a speed run in disguise. And all speed runs are all or nothing(except charity events).
I'll sometimes joke on my own more powerful builds(directed at the npcs that i'm gonna vaporize), but I do so in jest. I took my most destructive character into an elite wanted patrol and destroyed it for the first time without dying, I felt it was an achievement, but I also don't think elite RTO's would be necessarily interesting. The only difference between advanced wanted and elite wanted seemed to be little more than health pools. It's an adjustment made to pander to extreme damage output, rather than smarter AI. In all honesty I don't think STO is a good game when it comes to difficulty; many times unless it's a "die if you stay here" mechanic, often you can get destroyed before you even had a chance to react. I remember the saitama torpedoes when I started playing just after Victory is life release came out (one shotted by an escort npc torpedo, yeah that was fun, or torpedo spread from a frigate taking me from full shield/hull down to like 20% hull and no tier 6 ship available for a newbie like me at the time). It isn't really imo, hard in a GOOD way necessarily. I mean enemies can feedback pulse instantly and destroy you before you can even see they have activated feedback pulse as another example.
Ultimately, the game is in an off situation; we have a ton of power creep and the difficulties only serve to accommodate that, but its otherwise a game that becomes very easy and doesn't seem fun when it is hard.
To the OP: If a RFO ends way to fast, as long as you didn't get hit with an idler penalty and can still join another random TFO, i'd be greatful its over fast. Sure it wasn't as fun but you at least won't be doing that TFO again for a while. Honestly, I hate the borg TFO's, I get them far to often when I play random in fact, borg TFO's coming up 90% of the time(not even an exageration) is one of the contributers towards my absenses from this game, that and non-stop-events.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
Think everyone needs to step back for a moment. Its getting a bit close to heated argument in here.
Personally I feel that using Infected as a "benchmark" is questionable. You got four other variables (the rest of the team) that can tip your DPS up or down depending on what BOff abilities are used.
I admit I always panic when I see a Vaadwaur Juggernaut in an Infected run because most of the time they're so powerful they vaporize things just by LOOKING at them. And I got a decent build myself.
The whole issue is kind of a double edged sword.
Do some people get enjoyment out of min-maxing and getting the absolute best out of their builds? Yes
Does it adversely affect some other players? Yes.
Is their fun wrong? No.
Players can reach rather amazing levels of destruction. The problem really is that they don't have anywhere to really put it to the test. On top of that, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were less interested in testing their DPS as they were gunning for quick rewards. And unfortunately Infected is pretty straight forward and can be nuked. In fact I'm pretty sure the original three Borg TFOs are all easy to nuke with a top end DPS build.
Again I would like to say that their fun is not wrong. However I wish those people were a bit more mindful of other players and their capabilities as accidentally AFKing members of the team can adversely affect those players.
Having a ship set up with massive DPS can be a trophy for a player. A mark of pride or something. But there is a fine line before it crosses into epeen ego territory. Its not just the build that can be a problem. Its the attitude of the Player using it that can be just as much of a problem. But that is a whole 'nother can of worms.
I admit I see DPS chases as little more than speed runs at this point, in fact once you realize the highest DPS numbers are always when the run is super short, well the conclusion for me was every DPS chase is just a speed run. Because when I tried to DPS parse in infected advanced I saw my highest damage SPIKE was insanely high but then the run would take long enough my DPS average plummeted. For it to have remained high the runs would have to resolve much more quickly, and if your the only high DPS person and everyone else is low, your own DPS also gets lower for it. So I think DPS parsing is kind of a farce, just a speed run in disguise. And all speed runs are all or nothing(except charity events).
There are two sides to it sustained DPS and spike DPS. ISE has got so short its turned into spike DPS runs where speed matters. While HSE is long enough that the DPS measured represents sustained DPS and speed doesn't matter so much. If your DPS is only high when its resolved quickly then you don't really have high sustained DPS.
Yeah and I suspect most high level DPS players don't want to build a ship purposely built to be as bad and unusable as possible to nerf all those traits and bonuses they've gotten just for the event that is. For a challenge of "Make this unviable build work" they might but not just for the event and quite frankly I don't blame them either.
"Making an unviable build work" is about the same as saying "make something not capable of working successfully work successfully."
I don't think I'd want to make my bicycle or lawnmower or laptop "as bad and unusable as possible" so this makes little sense to me.
"As bad and unusable as possible" =/= "not minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible DPS".
Try to keep in mind that many players, myself included, aren't necessarily "minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible dps" nor are we necessarily elite level or dps players.
Also, there are many of us that really haven't much in the way of traits / consoles / bonuses / endeavor rank to be nerfed.
Everybody has the option to use things that all players have access to in ways that can be successful.
Prot, if you're instakilling everything on the map before "lesser" ships can even move, you're minmaxed to the gills and might want to consider having a secondary, less minmaxed build available for Event TFOs. You can fly more than one ship, you know.
(And since this seems to need to be said lately: If you're not instakilling everything on the map, this clearly isn't about you. As someone I respect is fond of saying, "If it don't apply, let it fly.")
One of the points I was trying to get across is that there is so much powercreep that we don't need to be minmaxed to the gills to instakill everything. We can do as little as 10% of the highest possible dps and still be instakilling everything. Even my hangar pets are instakilling everything. I have already scaled my ship back to 3 front weapons and 3 back weapons and removed all tactical consoles that boost crit damage and crit chance and I still intakill everything on normal. I have none of the meta high end starship traits fitted and my torpedoes and mines are often some of the weakest types in game for DPS like Tricobalt or Plasma.
Think everyone needs to step back for a moment. Its getting a bit close to heated argument in here.
Personally I feel that using Infected as a "benchmark" is questionable. You got four other variables (the rest of the team) that can tip your DPS up or down depending on what BOff abilities are used.
I admit I always panic when I see a Vaadwaur Juggernaut in an Infected run because most of the time they're so powerful they vaporize things just by LOOKING at them. And I got a decent build myself.
The whole issue is kind of a double edged sword.
Do some people get enjoyment out of min-maxing and getting the absolute best out of their builds? Yes
Does it adversely affect some other players? Yes.
Is their fun wrong? No.
Players can reach rather amazing levels of destruction. The problem really is that they don't have anywhere to really put it to the test. On top of that, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were less interested in testing their DPS as they were gunning for quick rewards. And unfortunately Infected is pretty straight forward and can be nuked. In fact I'm pretty sure the original three Borg TFOs are all easy to nuke with a top end DPS build.
Again I would like to say that their fun is not wrong. However I wish those people were a bit more mindful of other players and their capabilities as accidentally AFKing members of the team can adversely affect those players.
Having a ship set up with massive DPS can be a trophy for a player. A mark of pride or something. But there is a fine line before it crosses into epeen ego territory. Its not just the build that can be a problem. Its the attitude of the Player using it that can be just as much of a problem. But that is a whole 'nother can of worms.
I admit I see DPS chases as little more than speed runs at this point, in fact once you realize the highest DPS numbers are always when the run is super short, well the conclusion for me was every DPS chase is just a speed run. Because when I tried to DPS parse in infected advanced I saw my highest damage SPIKE was insanely high but then the run would take long enough my DPS average plummeted. For it to have remained high the runs would have to resolve much more quickly, and if your the only high DPS person and everyone else is low, your own DPS also gets lower for it. So I think DPS parsing is kind of a farce, just a speed run in disguise. And all speed runs are all or nothing(except charity events).
There are two sides to it sustained DPS and spike DPS. ISE has got so short its turned into spike DPS runs where speed matters. While HSE is long enough that the DPS measured represents sustained DPS and speed doesn't matter so much. If your DPS is only high when its resolved quickly then you don't really have high sustained DPS.
On the DPS I certainly realize that in retrospect my sustained isn't as high as I'd like(far from it), or at least in the parses I did at the time, I have no way of knowing 100% without having done Elite Infected conduit which I probably never will. Only reason I bring up augmented and shorter times bringing bursts out was because I watched him a lot for advice on doing better, and certainly my gameplay improved significantly because of him. Only comments I ever got on my dps in-game was "You'd probably score higher in elite, enemies are dying to fast before your getting to do anything".
I was mostly just saying DPS runs are still though effectively speedruns, even if you have a high sustained dps. Your still even indirectly trying to end the TFO faster. Many newer TFO's instead rely on enemies respawning endlessly and faster when they are destroyed by high DPS. On normal I one shot them and even advanced I often destroy them faster than they can do anything in randoms, it's enough for me and gets the job done. Any higher DPS is kind of pointless for me as a consequence.
The rest of my points though kind of still stand that the game is effectively a "Funner when it's easier", its probably why we have a lot of DPS chasers and few other styles of play. And when it does turn out to be hard in some content players struggle to see whats destroying them, either from the combat still being more or less dice roles or particle effects obscuring attacks/effects ect. Lack of telegraphing available or lack of even seeing anything happening.
So many players just make up for it by chasing extremely high dps, you don't need to learn all the mechanics when the enemy is destroyed so fast those mechanics never come into play in the first place. Just as on the other end of the spectrum when your destroyed super fast you cannot see what destroys you. So we have this situation, DPS has been focused on so much it's gotten so high everywhere that some TFO's end ridiculously fast.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
There is already Elite level content that is seriously underutilized as it is.
Why it is so underutilized though? Rewards are not good enough? Too boring? How do you get more players to run it? I think adding Elite level TFOs into the Random selection would be a good start.
I really used to love elite a loooong time ago until it was ruined with arbitrary fail conditions. Elite never needed fail conditions! I would love to play it now if we weren't required to insta vape our way through elite due to some pointless timer, I WANT longer tougher battles again like the old days and old elite delivered that! But nowadays, its law you can't do that in Elite, insta vape is the law... so it feels like, whats the point...
My builds would be plenty good to play current-day elite but the timers and such need to go. On the other paw, I can solo most advanced content easily currently, so I'm that in between state where advanced is too easy and elite is just far too hardcore and unfun due to arbitrary fail rules.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,597Community Moderator
Cryptic could try a stat squish, but that really only kicks the can down the road, and affects everyone. And the last time we had a jump on the NPC side... well... I still remember the fires of Delta Rising. I was there... *'nam flashbacks*
For the Elite content, we probably do need more options that reward better. The problem is how do we make it viable without enticing players who are not ready to jump in because of said better rewards?
Any kind of "gear score" is an automatic no because that has been used way too many times in other games to discriminate. And I do have a friend who has faced different forms of discirmination when he played WoW, mostly from elitists who had their own websites. Yea he COULD do things, but "unless you have a rating on OUR website, GTFO NooB."
I hate to say it but we got one helluva complex issue that could spiral in many directions. How do you encourage something without enabling toxic behavior? How do you solve problems without alienating players on one side, the other, or both?
*off-topic: I love the pic on your signature; I can't help but giggle every time I see it.
On-topic:
...and to echo what someone else on this thread has already stated: some of us don't have the money to just buy our way into the "gud" status.
Comments
Cause i've seen he used the "problem" word. We don't have a problem.
And yeah i admit, i got carried away a bit, obviously
Like a bunch of people yelling at the ocean to stop making waves.
It's just an inevitability. Even this conversation is reductive and can't be constructive. All it can do is build animosity when everyone is like children angry that they have to grow into adults.
A company ill do whatever it can to make money, and their target audience is the ones that can give them said money. So being upset about it is just reductive. Without the company you have no game; unless your ideal outcome is to not have a game. The moment it became free to play and no longer subscription modeled then this was an inevitable outcome. Getting angry over it is just strange.
And the strangest part of it all is... the interaction is only 5-10 minutes of your day. You guys really want to build animosity and disgust for each other over 10 minutes of your day arguing over an inevitability built by the company owners?
Some people have and some people don't. It is absolutely not a skill factor. Because no matter how skilled you are, you are limited by your output. You can't overcome power with skill. So i'm not sure why people believe power is a skill. Or that skill can overcome power. It can't. It won't.
So personally the overall value of this conversation to me seems to be a construct to vent a little. But you really cant have a public struggle session because it will brush up against others that take offense to it.
No matter how i see it, you cant fix this, the toothpaste is already out the tube. The devs knew this would be the case and told the owners and the owners weighed it and considered this to be worth the outcome.
This conversation can't be had on the forum because no matter how you look at it, you are asking the game to take from someone else so that you can be happy but you are saying its for the community, its not. Its for you. Specifically. All you can do really is take it for what it is. A small blip in your day and move on.
Powercreep has been happening for years but its only in the past 6 months or so that I noticed its starting to have a negative impact on players and I experienced it myself. Forcing players down to normal with the current level of power creep is causing problems.
Yes, i agree completely.
As long as these issues are discussed solely by the players, it will never be resolved, simply because we are not in a position to implement any changes.
But, i started this thread, here on the official forums as a reminder to anyone who can make the necessary changes that this is still a relevant issue. Because that's what official forums are for, at least they used to be.
However, having said that, power creep in itself is not my real concern, it is after all inevitable to a certain degree.
The part of the power creep issue that stands out plainly is the available DPS ceiling.
The maximum available DPS that any player can achieve using the legitimate game mechanics, and the fact that it is spilling out of the Elite content that is designed to handle it, and into rest of the game where it is way too much DPS for the current content, and the average player who exists there.
There is no reason for high level players to use that much DPS in regular content. We have ship slots, loadouts and alt characters to build with, pulling the content out from under the average player is unnecessary, at best.
This is the only reason for this thread.
We used to be able to do events on Elite maps, I have no idea what the reason was for stopping this. All I can say is I find forcing everyone into normal has ruined events.
Well, yes. I agree with you.
Having the events set up like that is unfortunate and unavoidable. Even advanced level players will still be blasting through normal level content.
It's the Advanced level TFO's and Battlezones that are most affected by rampant DPS spillage. There really isn't anywhere outside of Elite TFO's and maybe PVP arenas for those high level players to go. Also unfortunate and currently unavoidable.
However, as to the built in DPS buffs and power creep that we build into our main characters. That can be worked around by creating alt characters, or our main characters can have other lower tier ships using lower level gear to compensate for the dps overspill.
I did mention previously that i have lower level ships set up specifically for just that purpose, mainly because Elite tier content is not as popular as it could be. So i have taken it upon myself to limit my own output to compensate for the 11 years worth of gear, buffs and traits that i have collected. I feel that i have more than enough options available to me so that i don't step on anyone elses fun.
I hope this helps to clear up my motivations and reasoning.
And as long as the people who are able to make changes, are made aware of any potential issues, that's really all that matters.
If they are'nt informed or reminded by the actively playing community, then it may never be addressed, if it is at all possible to be addressed.
ps; And as a quick side note, do recall some folks regularly running as a pre-built team, taking t1 connies and oberths into STF's just purely for challenge and some giggles.
As for limiting ourselves I already do that to an extent and its not really having any impact. My main is flying Carriers, 3/3 carriers at that and for main weapons I run a Tricobalt boat. Most would consider these two of the weakest options in game yet I am still way beyond the requirements for normal even with the extra step which I have done of removing the popular fleet tactical consoles that boost crit chance or damage.
I can only strip back so far before ruining my own fun and even if I strip back to a base ship with base gear I am going to be doing triple the DPS of what I used to do when I started the game. Anyway Stripping back any further will make it feel like what is the point in playing. I don't see asking players to strip back or change setups as a useful solution to the problem. There has to be a better solution.
Two weeks ago i said to some old alliance friends that i was coming back to STO, four of them decided to also pop in after a 4 year break.
Out of the 4 who came back, all of them quit within the space of 2 days after seeing the massive disparity between them and the new higher DPS ranges. Two of them spent hundreds, if not thousands of UK £'s on this game in the past. That's two whales that said "Nope" and walked away within 48 hours.
As for myself, i found a good alliance fleet recently, i have never really been a DPS chaser either, i just want a ship good enough to manage the advanced TFO randoms.
Is the disparity causing a major problem? No, not really if you look at it from Joe Blogs "Casual Gamer" perspective, sure, sometimes he might be accidentally AFK'ed cause he cant get a shot off in a TFO, but that's about it. However being an ex dev i recall the one single word which terrorises game developers and publishers. Entropy.
ST:O is 13 years old. Entropy is around the corner, the decline in numbers which needs two things to stop it, and one of those things is ex players returning...especially ex whale players who spend cash that goes into Cryptics coffers. If what i have seen with those 4 old friends is anything to go by, Cryptic have a problem which is now approaching, and if i was at Cryptic's studios right now, i would be worried about what happens 2 to 3 years from now.
Yes, again i agree with you.
There are limits to what a person can and will do to be able to enjoy a game.
Until a developer made solution is implemented, it really all boils down to player choice. what they are able to do verses what they want to do, and the grey areas in between.
There will always be power creep, there will always be people seeking to push the boundaries of what is possible, and also what is acceptable. That is the individuals choice to make.
And i try to keep reminding myself that not everyone has the time or resources to make a bunch of different characters with ships and equipment to suit.
I had a few discussions with past fleet mates that read alot like this, also one of the catalysts for this long winded discussion.
I don't expect it to make a difference. I don't even know if it's possible to fix, but it does'nt hurt to try, or ask.
Thanks for mentioning this. Being on a normal difficulty map for events has presented issues the past while both on the ground and in space.
Things haven't enough hit points at this level which can make playing without disturbing others challenging.
I don't think I'd want to make my bicycle or lawnmower or laptop "as bad and unusable as possible" so this makes little sense to me.
Try to keep in mind that many players, myself included, aren't necessarily "minmaxed to the gills in order to pump out the highest possible dps" nor are we necessarily elite level or dps players.
Also, there are many of us that really haven't much in the way of traits / consoles / bonuses / endeavor rank to be nerfed.
Everybody has the option to use things that all players have access to in ways that can be successful.
(And since this seems to need to be said lately: If you're not instakilling everything on the map, this clearly isn't about you. As someone I respect is fond of saying, "If it don't apply, let it fly.")
Yes, you are correct.
However, i was referring to the "instakill" levels of DPS. There may be uses for it in some situations. But not all, and certainly not in inappropriate situations like lower level group content and public access arenas.
As for the comment itself, it has now been taken out of context by multiple quotes. Here's the entire quote, in context.
Jon, yes I realize that I can fly more than one ship. I hear ya about perhaps trying to make a few changes in order to slow things down. You could be right. It's a matter of perspective.
Instead of detuning things another solution might be to offer event maps at all difficulty levels to give players the option to dial in whatever degree of challenge they'd like ?
Good advice. It really depends upon the difficulty level of the map. No instakills on elite, some on advanced, most of the time on normal.
I see your point.
As for incentivizing players, that's above my pay grade. I could offer all the suggestions in the world, and i do have a bunch of them. But they will only be of any use if someone who is able to enact the the necessary changes is willing to hear them and do something with them.
Herein lies the limit of forum discussions. And unfortunately the root of forum arguments and disagreements. Everyone has a valid opinion, and possibly some great ideas, but very few find enough common ground to make a difference. Add to that my previously hinted at speed bump of developer interest/dis-interest which is all too common.
Also, i have no real idea how to placate the mega DPS crowd, i achieve as much DPS as i need, to do the content i want to do. High level DPS has'nt been interesting to me since TFO's were called STF's, or possibly earlier. I just don't know what they might find enticing.
Edit;
Let me add to this comment by stating that i don't believe that the legitimate DPS chasers are the problem. I tend to think that it's individuals using high DPS builds without considering the consequences of their actions/behavior. I also tend to think that adding more Elite level content wo'nt solve the problem either. There is already Elite level content that is seriously underutilized as it is.
I admit I see DPS chases as little more than speed runs at this point, in fact once you realize the highest DPS numbers are always when the run is super short, well the conclusion for me was every DPS chase is just a speed run. Because when I tried to DPS parse in infected advanced I saw my highest damage SPIKE was insanely high but then the run would take long enough my DPS average plummeted. For it to have remained high the runs would have to resolve much more quickly, and if your the only high DPS person and everyone else is low, your own DPS also gets lower for it. So I think DPS parsing is kind of a farce, just a speed run in disguise. And all speed runs are all or nothing(except charity events).
I'll sometimes joke on my own more powerful builds(directed at the npcs that i'm gonna vaporize), but I do so in jest. I took my most destructive character into an elite wanted patrol and destroyed it for the first time without dying, I felt it was an achievement, but I also don't think elite RTO's would be necessarily interesting. The only difference between advanced wanted and elite wanted seemed to be little more than health pools. It's an adjustment made to pander to extreme damage output, rather than smarter AI. In all honesty I don't think STO is a good game when it comes to difficulty; many times unless it's a "die if you stay here" mechanic, often you can get destroyed before you even had a chance to react. I remember the saitama torpedoes when I started playing just after Victory is life release came out (one shotted by an escort npc torpedo, yeah that was fun, or torpedo spread from a frigate taking me from full shield/hull down to like 20% hull and no tier 6 ship available for a newbie like me at the time). It isn't really imo, hard in a GOOD way necessarily. I mean enemies can feedback pulse instantly and destroy you before you can even see they have activated feedback pulse as another example.
Ultimately, the game is in an off situation; we have a ton of power creep and the difficulties only serve to accommodate that, but its otherwise a game that becomes very easy and doesn't seem fun when it is hard.
To the OP: If a RFO ends way to fast, as long as you didn't get hit with an idler penalty and can still join another random TFO, i'd be greatful its over fast. Sure it wasn't as fun but you at least won't be doing that TFO again for a while. Honestly, I hate the borg TFO's, I get them far to often when I play random in fact, borg TFO's coming up 90% of the time(not even an exageration) is one of the contributers towards my absenses from this game, that and non-stop-events.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
On the DPS I certainly realize that in retrospect my sustained isn't as high as I'd like(far from it), or at least in the parses I did at the time, I have no way of knowing 100% without having done Elite Infected conduit which I probably never will. Only reason I bring up augmented and shorter times bringing bursts out was because I watched him a lot for advice on doing better, and certainly my gameplay improved significantly because of him. Only comments I ever got on my dps in-game was "You'd probably score higher in elite, enemies are dying to fast before your getting to do anything".
I was mostly just saying DPS runs are still though effectively speedruns, even if you have a high sustained dps. Your still even indirectly trying to end the TFO faster. Many newer TFO's instead rely on enemies respawning endlessly and faster when they are destroyed by high DPS. On normal I one shot them and even advanced I often destroy them faster than they can do anything in randoms, it's enough for me and gets the job done. Any higher DPS is kind of pointless for me as a consequence.
The rest of my points though kind of still stand that the game is effectively a "Funner when it's easier", its probably why we have a lot of DPS chasers and few other styles of play. And when it does turn out to be hard in some content players struggle to see whats destroying them, either from the combat still being more or less dice roles or particle effects obscuring attacks/effects ect. Lack of telegraphing available or lack of even seeing anything happening.
So many players just make up for it by chasing extremely high dps, you don't need to learn all the mechanics when the enemy is destroyed so fast those mechanics never come into play in the first place. Just as on the other end of the spectrum when your destroyed super fast you cannot see what destroys you. So we have this situation, DPS has been focused on so much it's gotten so high everywhere that some TFO's end ridiculously fast.
Thinking of ideas from lots of games for, dunno how long now.
I really used to love elite a loooong time ago until it was ruined with arbitrary fail conditions. Elite never needed fail conditions! I would love to play it now if we weren't required to insta vape our way through elite due to some pointless timer, I WANT longer tougher battles again like the old days and old elite delivered that! But nowadays, its law you can't do that in Elite, insta vape is the law... so it feels like, whats the point...
My builds would be plenty good to play current-day elite but the timers and such need to go. On the other paw, I can solo most advanced content easily currently, so I'm that in between state where advanced is too easy and elite is just far too hardcore and unfun due to arbitrary fail rules.
For the Elite content, we probably do need more options that reward better. The problem is how do we make it viable without enticing players who are not ready to jump in because of said better rewards?
Any kind of "gear score" is an automatic no because that has been used way too many times in other games to discriminate. And I do have a friend who has faced different forms of discirmination when he played WoW, mostly from elitists who had their own websites. Yea he COULD do things, but "unless you have a rating on OUR website, GTFO NooB."
I hate to say it but we got one helluva complex issue that could spiral in many directions. How do you encourage something without enabling toxic behavior? How do you solve problems without alienating players on one side, the other, or both?
On-topic:
...and to echo what someone else on this thread has already stated: some of us don't have the money to just buy our way into the "gud" status.