I already said that it had to be rewarding to the player. They have to want to spend their DL on it. Not "I have no choice in the matter" because depending on what it is, players will just outright ignore it and not interact with that if its small enough and doesn't impact gameplay (reroll/skip tokens), or light the forums on fire if its large and affects their ability to play (any proposed tax on in game travel).
Well it is rewarding if it means they can change the look of their ships.
And to be honest, I'm actually buying reroll tokens quite often. Surely I'm not the only one who's crazy enough to do this?
Yeah, except, they expressly did away with charging for cosmetic changes, and it's been free for years now. Reinstituting that, and charging Dilithium, would not be wise. As stated, Space Barbie is the true endgame. And when you have the option of multiple costume slots, that you've already paid Zen for, it's rather irksome to have to continue to pay to use them.
I'm glad that you're utilizing the reroll token option. But it is optional. I, for one, do not. So, I either engage with what's already there, or I ignore it until I get something more to my liking. Point is, I have a choice. But I'm all for Dilithium being used to purchase conveniences like shortening timers, rerolling Endeavors, etc.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,588Community Moderator
I don't doubt there are others who do. However quite a few, especially the vocal ones on the forums, don't. Honestly I don't either, mostly either because I already had a stockpile of tokens, decided not to do endeavors for a day, or can power through any Admiralty with my massive fleet of cards due to having been playing for many years.
The reasonings will vary. Some are in protest, others aren't.
Any tax on any system in the game will unfairly punish newer players for not having a stockpile or ability to gather quickly to cover said tax. For us Veterans it probably wouldn't be too much of an issue as we have Admiralty and various other sources we can easily take advantage of. Newer players won't have that or the associated knowledge. A negative experience with what could be seen as a cheap, Mobile Game level cash grab (You have x amount of energy that regenerates slowly over time, but you can pay for this item to give you more energy) just to play the game will drive newer players away, not incentivise spending DL.
Its gotta be a sink that will reward the player, thus encouraging them to interact with the sink more. Positive reinforcement, not an absolute requirement just to play.
The Fleet Holdings were the primary sink, but when the big fleets finished, the demand dried up. Yes there are smaller and newer fleets, but they don't have the spending power of larger fleets. And there will be those fleets who want bragging rights to say "we got their first" so they would be more inclined to trade Zen for DL. And some of those fleets also open their stores to others as a Public Service for those who haven't gotten their holdings leveled themselves (although Fed is more active than KDF in that regard, or was last time I needed something KDF side anyways).
There is no magic bullet solution to this complex problem. Its going to take many things working together if we hope to even get HALF of the effect the fleet holdings did years ago. As of right now we do have a few things that work for spike spending (Vanity Shield sale being the biggest), however right now every available option has a finite lifespan. Once that's capped out by the big spenders who got everything they are looking for, the demand drops. We'll need a few sinks that can be repeated infinitely to help drain the supply while encouraging interaction with them.
In theory, something similar to FF14's restoration projects could be a step in that direction, as one of the things players did over there was gather resources for various stages. And we're talking large amounts of resources. It was more complex over there because you have actual gatherer classes and crafter classes. And for the most part it was gatherers either collecting what they needed to craft the gubbins themselves to turn in for progress, or they were selling off the materials to those who had higher level crafters. For STO, the crafting side is not as interactive... but could still be involved in some way. And one of the materials needed could be Refined DL as well. Kinda like a big, community wide fleet holding sort of thing. And it not only encouraged players to participate, it was actually fun. On top of that, the most recent one, which players "built" the new housing district in Ishgard, you can STILL gather and craft the things for the restoration project despite the project already being done, and you will still be rewarded by earning skybuilders scrip to trade for various things, most of which are tradable and even show up on the marketboard for sale.
So there are things that can be explored without resorting to basically a gameplay tax. What is going on now is Cryptic is evaluating various ideas, both big and small. It is easier to test the smaller ones, like the Vanity Shield Sales, but ultimately its going to be a long process that takes time. And while we can throw out ideas, Cryptic is not under any obligation to give us running commentary on their efforts to resolve this. So some people will complain that Cryptic is not doing anything, or prefers the status quo because "money", when the truth is they're working on it behind the scenes, and have ADMITTED that the situation is not ideal either. They don't like it any more than we do.
I already said that it had to be rewarding to the player. They have to want to spend their DL on it. Not "I have no choice in the matter" because depending on what it is, players will just outright ignore it and not interact with that if its small enough and doesn't impact gameplay (reroll/skip tokens), or light the forums on fire if its large and affects their ability to play (any proposed tax on in game travel).
Well it is rewarding if it means they can change the look of their ships.
And to be honest, I'm actually buying reroll tokens quite often. Surely I'm not the only one who's crazy enough to do this?
Yeah, except, they expressly did away with charging for cosmetic changes, and it's been free for years now. Reinstituting that, and charging Dilithium, would not be wise. As stated, Space Barbie is the true endgame. And when you have the option of multiple costume slots, that you've already paid Zen for, it's rather irksome to have to continue to pay to use them.
I'm glad that you're utilizing the reroll token option. But it is optional. I, for one, do not. So, I either engage with what's already there, or I ignore it until I get something more to my liking. Point is, I have a choice. But I'm all for Dilithium being used to purchase conveniences like shortening timers, rerolling Endeavors, etc.
Neither was it wise to do this with the reroll tokens, yet they decided to do it. And using those isn't that much more optional than switching ships or costumes every day. Players can play the game without doing those things frequently (especially if they have multiple toons for different ships, which also promotes dilithium spending btw).
I won't claim that there wouldn't be any negative effects, but like I said above: any change aimed at getting players to spend more dilithium is either going to be seriously felt - or it's going to be ineffective in the long run.
And don't get me wrong: I'd hate to pay for such services. But then again, I'm also not the one who's suggesting that a solution is needed for the exchange anyway.
Those who do claim a solution is needed and that such a solution needs to revolve around increased dilithium spending also need to be realistic - and admit that it will in some way annoy at least some people and cost them valuable resources in ways they might not like.
Like I said, we can't have our cake and eat it. If one supports the position that dilithium spending needs to increase, then the fact that some of the ideas suggested are going to cost dilithium isn't a valid objection. A choice needs to be made.
I don't doubt there are others who do. However quite a few, especially the vocal ones on the forums, don't. Honestly I don't either, mostly either because I already had a stockpile of tokens, decided not to do endeavors for a day, or can power through any Admiralty with my massive fleet of cards due to having been playing for many years.
The reasonings will vary. Some are in protest, others aren't.
Any tax on any system in the game will unfairly punish newer players for not having a stockpile or ability to gather quickly to cover said tax. For us Veterans it probably wouldn't be too much of an issue as we have Admiralty and various other sources we can easily take advantage of. Newer players won't have that or the associated knowledge. A negative experience with what could be seen as a cheap, Mobile Game level cash grab (You have x amount of energy that regenerates slowly over time, but you can pay for this item to give you more energy) just to play the game will drive newer players away, not incentivise spending DL.
Its gotta be a sink that will reward the player, thus encouraging them to interact with the sink more. Positive reinforcement, not an absolute requirement just to play.
The Fleet Holdings were the primary sink, but when the big fleets finished, the demand dried up. Yes there are smaller and newer fleets, but they don't have the spending power of larger fleets. And there will be those fleets who want bragging rights to say "we got their first" so they would be more inclined to trade Zen for DL. And some of those fleets also open their stores to others as a Public Service for those who haven't gotten their holdings leveled themselves (although Fed is more active than KDF in that regard, or was last time I needed something KDF side anyways).
There is no magic bullet solution to this complex problem. Its going to take many things working together if we hope to even get HALF of the effect the fleet holdings did years ago. As of right now we do have a few things that work for spike spending (Vanity Shield sale being the biggest), however right now every available option has a finite lifespan. Once that's capped out by the big spenders who got everything they are looking for, the demand drops. We'll need a few sinks that can be repeated infinitely to help drain the supply while encouraging interaction with them.
In theory, something similar to FF14's restoration projects could be a step in that direction, as one of the things players did over there was gather resources for various stages. And we're talking large amounts of resources. It was more complex over there because you have actual gatherer classes and crafter classes. And for the most part it was gatherers either collecting what they needed to craft the gubbins themselves to turn in for progress, or they were selling off the materials to those who had higher level crafters. For STO, the crafting side is not as interactive... but could still be involved in some way. And one of the materials needed could be Refined DL as well. Kinda like a big, community wide fleet holding sort of thing. And it not only encouraged players to participate, it was actually fun. On top of that, the most recent one, which players "built" the new housing district in Ishgard, you can STILL gather and craft the things for the restoration project despite the project already being done, and you will still be rewarded by earning skybuilders scrip to trade for various things, most of which are tradable and even show up on the marketboard for sale.
So there are things that can be explored without resorting to basically a gameplay tax. What is going on now is Cryptic is evaluating various ideas, both big and small. It is easier to test the smaller ones, like the Vanity Shield Sales, but ultimately its going to be a long process that takes time. And while we can throw out ideas, Cryptic is not under any obligation to give us running commentary on their efforts to resolve this. So some people will complain that Cryptic is not doing anything, or prefers the status quo because "money", when the truth is they're working on it behind the scenes, and have ADMITTED that the situation is not ideal either. They don't like it any more than we do.
Its gotta be a sink that will reward the player, thus encouraging them to interact with the sink more. Positive reinforcement, not an absolute requirement just to play.
Yes, that would be ideal. However, as noted, that will also require continuous additions to be made.
Personally I can't think of any sink that's really rewarding if there's no gear for actual gameplay involved. And such gear will at some point lose its attractiveness or be replaced by other things that the player desires more. (Edit: 'gear' can be interpreted broadly here, to also include things like uniforms - ie, anything you use while playing the game.)
As for the fleets: one could argue they weren't that different from the suggested tax on some services. You want to use a certain store or acquire some unique uniforms, you (or someone else) has to unlock it. The only difference is that that's how it had always been regarding fleets - the idea itself isn't that different.
I don't doubt there are others who do. However quite a few, especially the vocal ones on the forums, don't. Honestly I don't either, mostly either because I already had a stockpile of tokens, decided not to do endeavors for a day, or can power through any Admiralty with my massive fleet of cards due to having been playing for many years.
The reasonings will vary. Some are in protest, others aren't.
Any tax on any system in the game will unfairly punish newer players for not having a stockpile or ability to gather quickly to cover said tax. For us Veterans it probably wouldn't be too much of an issue as we have Admiralty and various other sources we can easily take advantage of. Newer players won't have that or the associated knowledge. A negative experience with what could be seen as a cheap, Mobile Game level cash grab (You have x amount of energy that regenerates slowly over time, but you can pay for this item to give you more energy) just to play the game will drive newer players away, not incentivise spending DL.
Its gotta be a sink that will reward the player, thus encouraging them to interact with the sink more. Positive reinforcement, not an absolute requirement just to play.
The Fleet Holdings were the primary sink, but when the big fleets finished, the demand dried up. Yes there are smaller and newer fleets, but they don't have the spending power of larger fleets. And there will be those fleets who want bragging rights to say "we got their first" so they would be more inclined to trade Zen for DL. And some of those fleets also open their stores to others as a Public Service for those who haven't gotten their holdings leveled themselves (although Fed is more active than KDF in that regard, or was last time I needed something KDF side anyways).
There is no magic bullet solution to this complex problem. Its going to take many things working together if we hope to even get HALF of the effect the fleet holdings did years ago. As of right now we do have a few things that work for spike spending (Vanity Shield sale being the biggest), however right now every available option has a finite lifespan. Once that's capped out by the big spenders who got everything they are looking for, the demand drops. We'll need a few sinks that can be repeated infinitely to help drain the supply while encouraging interaction with them.
In theory, something similar to FF14's restoration projects could be a step in that direction, as one of the things players did over there was gather resources for various stages. And we're talking large amounts of resources. It was more complex over there because you have actual gatherer classes and crafter classes. And for the most part it was gatherers either collecting what they needed to craft the gubbins themselves to turn in for progress, or they were selling off the materials to those who had higher level crafters. For STO, the crafting side is not as interactive... but could still be involved in some way. And one of the materials needed could be Refined DL as well. Kinda like a big, community wide fleet holding sort of thing. And it not only encouraged players to participate, it was actually fun. On top of that, the most recent one, which players "built" the new housing district in Ishgard, you can STILL gather and craft the things for the restoration project despite the project already being done, and you will still be rewarded by earning skybuilders scrip to trade for various things, most of which are tradable and even show up on the marketboard for sale.
So there are things that can be explored without resorting to basically a gameplay tax. What is going on now is Cryptic is evaluating various ideas, both big and small. It is easier to test the smaller ones, like the Vanity Shield Sales, but ultimately its going to be a long process that takes time. And while we can throw out ideas, Cryptic is not under any obligation to give us running commentary on their efforts to resolve this. So some people will complain that Cryptic is not doing anything, or prefers the status quo because "money", when the truth is they're working on it behind the scenes, and have ADMITTED that the situation is not ideal either. They don't like it any more than we do.
Its gotta be a sink that will reward the player, thus encouraging them to interact with the sink more. Positive reinforcement, not an absolute requirement just to play.
Yes, that would be ideal. However, as noted, that will also require continuous additions to be made.
Personally I can't think of any sink that's really rewarding if there's no gear for actual gameplay involved. And such gear will at some point lose its attractiveness or be replaced by other things that the player desires more. (Edit: 'gear' can be interpreted broadly here, to also include things like uniforms - ie, anything you use while playing the game.)
As for the fleets: one could argue they weren't that different from the suggested tax on some services. You want to use a certain store or acquire some unique uniforms, you (or someone else) has to unlock it. The only difference is that that's how it had always been regarding fleets - the idea itself isn't that different.
It needs something NEW, not a 'Dil Tax' on stuff that is already free. Changing something that is widely used, for free, to be a Dil cost will not only have folks out with pitchforks, but it'll hit the game population so hard it'll think it's back in the jurassic era, with less popularity than the Flat Earth Society (It's about the only group I can safely refer to here ). You thought the supposed loss of players from Delta Rising was bad.....your idea will top the charts in that area. Costs on some 'conveniences' were removed because they were tedious and tediously small, and therefore the removal had zero impact on the economy anyway, because the 'tax' had minimal impact. Dil is the most important currency, you seriously don't want to be 'taxing' folk for their hardearned Dil on free services.
The game does not need a Fleet 'thing' because that will automatically segregate the playerbase that won't join one, and a 'world' one won't suffice either. The ONLY thing that will work is a 'per player/character' solution, such as the often proposed and batted back 'player' holdings/apartment. It needs to be a substantive investment like what the Fleets are, but obviously not at such an excessive cost like it is to the few who donate the most in fleets.
BUT
Whatever large scale thing they are thinking about, planning or actually doing is still going to take time, and as they are established now with remote-working, we are going to have to be extra-patient.
"You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
I already said that it had to be rewarding to the player. They have to want to spend their DL on it. Not "I have no choice in the matter" because depending on what it is, players will just outright ignore it and not interact with that if its small enough and doesn't impact gameplay (reroll/skip tokens), or light the forums on fire if its large and affects their ability to play (any proposed tax on in game travel).
Well it is rewarding if it means they can change the look of their ships.
And to be honest, I'm actually buying reroll tokens quite often. Surely I'm not the only one who's crazy enough to do this?
I regard amending the look of your character or ship as an intrinsic part of playing the game, just like flying your ship is. What next, charging for switching from one ship to another when wanting to collect ship mastery traits? That might result in players staying in their favourite ship, not amending its look and ultimately deciding to buy fewer ships, skins and costumes in the future.
As for reroll/pass tokens, I think you might be!😁 I remember saying it was unlikely many people will spend dilithium on them at the time of the announcement on Twitter. As has already been said, letting them reroll automatically the next day and using weaker ships cards as reusable pass tokens suffices. My limited supply of refined dilithium is better used for Phoenix upgrades, re-engineering or converting to Zen. Spending on one time consumables that don't have any lasting impact on my game feels too much like a waste. As would paying a fee to use already bought ship skins/visuals and character costumes.
What if we reduced the buy order limit from 5000zen to say 2500zen?
It would not address the total dilithium pool back log. It would do nothing to add to the demand because the zen spent on dilithium per month would not change.
However, it should prioritize casual players with smaller dilithium flows and reduce the time any give order for ANYONE to clear.
Casual players posting a three million dilithium or less a month would not notice the limit change but by breaking the 7,500,000 dilithium farm purchase bulk drops into smaller chunks.
I admit it would force large dilithium flow players to post more often but if a 15,000 zen buy block is taking a month and the buy rate is unchanged they could just post every two weeks.
What if we reduced the buy order limit from 5000zen to say 2500zen?
It would not address the total dilithium pool back log. It would do nothing to add to the demand because the zen spent on dilithium per month would not change.
However, it should prioritize casual players with smaller dilithium flows and reduce the time any give order for ANYONE to clear.
Casual players posting a three million dilithium or less a month would not notice the limit change but by breaking the 7,500,000 dilithium farm purchase bulk drops into smaller chunks.
I admit it would force large dilithium flow players to post more often but if a 15,000 zen buy block is taking a month and the buy rate is unchanged they could just post every two weeks.
It WOULD make the backlog feel less daunting.
I assume that you mean reduce the exchange limit from 1:500 to 1:250. Honestly, that wouldn't do anything. Players with Zen wouldn't suddenly need/want more Dilithium to trade for their Zen, especially since they'd be getting less "bang for their buck". The only people who really make out in that scenario are the Dilithium farmers, who would most likely post even more offers to the Exchange, because they would be getting more Zen for their trades. But that's drawing Dilithium traders, not Zen traders. An increase in the rate would be more likely to draw Zen traders (a verboten subject), but that's also irrelevant, because even if the rate was 1:5000, there's still nothing for them to spend Dilithium on. 🤷♀️
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
I already said that it had to be rewarding to the player. They have to want to spend their DL on it. Not "I have no choice in the matter" because depending on what it is, players will just outright ignore it and not interact with that if its small enough and doesn't impact gameplay (reroll/skip tokens), or light the forums on fire if its large and affects their ability to play (any proposed tax on in game travel).
Well it is rewarding if it means they can change the look of their ships.
And to be honest, I'm actually buying reroll tokens quite often. Surely I'm not the only one who's crazy enough to do this?
I regard amending the look of your character or ship as an intrinsic part of playing the game, just like flying your ship is. What next, charging for switching from one ship to another when wanting to collect ship mastery traits? That might result in players staying in their favourite ship, not amending its look and ultimately deciding to buy fewer ships, skins and costumes in the future.
As for reroll/pass tokens, I think you might be!😁 I remember saying it was unlikely many people will spend dilithium on them at the time of the announcement on Twitter. As has already been said, letting them reroll automatically the next day and using weaker ships cards as reusable pass tokens suffices. My limited supply of refined dilithium is better used for Phoenix upgrades, re-engineering or converting to Zen. Spending on one time consumables that don't have any lasting impact on my game feels too much like a waste. As would paying a fee to use already bought ship skins/visuals and character costumes.
Maybe, on the other hand - it might as well result in players creating more toons to avoid the dilithium tax of changing to another ship.
And new toons usually mean more spending of dilithium too.
Besides, one might as well argue that acquiring gear is an intrinsic part of the game. Yet few people seem to have any problem with a good part of that being locked behind pay walls (either pay walls that require spending dilithium or even rarer resources). Indeed, the fleet holdings are generally presented as a good thing in that they increased spending of dilithium. So although I understand the opposition to a service-dilithium tax, it is also not that different from what we already have, in my opinion.
And besides all that - whether we spend dilithium on one thing or the other, spending will need to increase. That much everyone seems to agree on. So the end result will likely be the same: players have less dilithium. That's the whole idea.
I have a suggestion that might actually work.
It is not a cure for the problem though, but a treatment for the symptoms.
It is based on the assumption that the hardcore 24/7 dill farmers are a major factor for this problem (that seems to be the working theory).
Changes to the dill-economy don't have any short-term effect (beyond miner fluctuations in the backlog) because the farmers have huge amount of dill in stock, and will place a new order as soon as one is served.
All the suggestions I've seen her have massive collateral damage, hitting "normal players" (the non-Dill-Farmers, lacking a better term) harder than those farmers.
My proposal is a surgical strike that actually helps the "normal player".
Currently the Dill-exchange is first-come-first-served, and that's what I would change.
Give the orders priority based on the players recent exchange activity. (This data is already being stored by the game. I can see my exchange history 10 years back.)
Looking at the last 6 months seems reasonable to me, but the exact timeframe isn't essential.
Category 1 would be orders from players who haven't bought any zen on the exchange in the last 6 months.
This is the highest priority category and these orders would be served first.
Category 2 could be small purchases e.g. up to 1K zen in the last 6 months.
These orders would be served if there are no open orders from cat 1.
Cat 3 with up to 3k Zen purchased (a T6 Ship)
Cat 4 up to 10k
Cat 5 more than 10k Zen purchased on the dill-exchange in the last 6 months.
This would be the lowest priority category. These Orders would only be served if there are no open orders from Cat1,2,3 and 4.
The dill-farmers would be here.
Orders within the same category would still be first-come-first-served.
All these Numbers are just examples, I'm sure Cryptic can come up with better numbers when they look at the statistic from exchange transaction.
What this does NOT do:
It doesn't change the backlog. You'd still see the same numbers.
It does not change the amount of dill that is bought.
What it does:
The "normal players" who occasionally place a small order would have them served rather quickly.
The dill-farmers who flood the exchange with massive ammounts of dill and immediately place new orders when one has been served will have to wait substatially longer.
Of course the system would need to be dynamic:
With time an older transaction might fall out of the 6-month-timeframe, and the players current orders would be upgraded to a better category.
On the other hand, if a player has placed multiple orders, and the first one gets served, the other may be pushed to a lower priority, as he now has more recent purchases.
Disclaimer:
I'm well aware that this is going to get me flamed by the dill-farmers, and badly, so:
Shields up, brace for impact and set a course out of this thread, maximum warp!
I have a suggestion that might actually work.
It is not a cure for the problem though, but a treatment for the symptoms.
It is based on the assumption that the hardcore 24/7 dill farmers are a major factor for this problem (that seems to be the working theory).
Changes to the dill-economy don't have any short-term effect (beyond miner fluctuations in the backlog) because the farmers have huge amount of dill in stock, and will place a new order as soon as one is served.
All the suggestions I've seen her have massive collateral damage, hitting "normal players" (the non-Dill-Farmers, lacking a better term) harder than those farmers.
My proposal is a surgical strike that actually helps the "normal player".
Currently the Dill-exchange is first-come-first-served, and that's what I would change.
Give the orders priority based on the players recent exchange activity. (This data is already being stored by the game. I can see my exchange history 10 years back.)
Looking at the last 6 months seems reasonable to me, but the exact timeframe isn't essential.
Category 1 would be orders from players who haven't bought any zen on the exchange in the last 6 months.
This is the highest priority category and these orders would be served first.
Category 2 could be small purchases e.g. up to 1K zen in the last 6 months.
These orders would be served if there are no open orders from cat 1.
Cat 3 with up to 3k Zen purchased (a T6 Ship)
Cat 4 up to 10k
Cat 5 more than 10k Zen purchased on the dill-exchange in the last 6 months.
This would be the lowest priority category. These Orders would only be served if there are no open orders from Cat1,2,3 and 4.
The dill-farmers would be here.
Orders within the same category would still be first-come-first-served.
All these Numbers are just examples, I'm sure Cryptic can come up with better numbers when they look at the statistic from exchange transaction.
What this does NOT do:
It doesn't change the backlog. You'd still see the same numbers.
It doesn't change the amount of dill purchased
What it does:
The "normal players" who occasionally place a small order would have them served rather quickly.
The dill-farmers who flood the exchange with massive amounts of dill and immediately place new orders when one has been served will have to wait substantial longer.
Of course the system would need to be dynamic:
With time an older transaction might fall out of the 6-month-timeframe, and the players current orders would be upgraded to a better category.
On the other hand, if a player has placed multiple orders, and the first one gets served, the other may be pushed to a lower priority, as he now has more recent purchases.
Disclaimer:
I'm well aware that this is going to get me flamed by the dill-farmers, and badly, so:
Shields up, brace for impact and set a course out of this thread, maximum warp!
> @realdarklord said: > I have a suggestion that might actually work. > It is not a cure for the problem though, but a treatment for the symptoms. > > It is based on the assumption that the hardcore 24/7 dill farmers are a major factor for this problem (that seems to be the working theory). > Changes to the dill-economy don't have any short-term effect (beyond miner fluctuations in the backlog) because the farmers have huge amount of dill in stock, and will place a new order as soon as one is served. > > All the suggestions I've seen her have massive collateral damage, hitting "normal players" (the non-Dill-Farmers, lacking a better term) harder than those farmers. > My proposal is a surgical strike that actually helps the "normal player". > > Currently the Dill-exchange is first-come-first-served, and that's what I would change. > Give the orders priority based on the players recent exchange activity. (This data is already being stored by the game. I can see my exchange history 10 years back.) > > Looking at the last 6 months seems reasonable to me, but the exact timeframe isn't essential. > * Category 1 would be orders from players who haven't bought any zen on the exchange in the last 6 months. > This is the highest priority category and these orders would be served first. > * Category 2 could be small purchases e.g. up to 1K zen in the last 6 months. > These orders would be served if there are no open orders from cat 1. > * Cat 3 with up to 3k Zen purchased (a T6 Ship) > * Cat 4 up to 10k > * Cat 5 more than 10k Zen purchased on the dill-exchange in the last 6 months. > This would be the lowest priority category. These Orders would only be served if there are no open orders from Cat1,2,3 and 4. > The dill-farmers would be here. > > > Orders within the same category would still be first-come-first-served. > > All these Numbers are just examples, I'm sure Cryptic can come up with better numbers when they look at the statistic from exchange transaction. > > What this does NOT do:* It doesn't change the backlog. You'd still see the same numbers. > * It doesn't change the amount of dill purchased > > > What it does:* The "normal players" who occasionally place a small order would have them served rather quickly. > * The dill-farmers who flood the exchange with massive amounts of dill and immediately place new orders when one has been served will have to wait substantial longer. > > Of course the system would need to be dynamic:* With time an older transaction might fall out of the 6-month-timeframe, and the players current orders would be upgraded to a better category. > * On the other hand, if a player has placed multiple orders, and the first one gets served, the other may be pushed to a lower priority, as he now has more recent purchases. > > > Disclaimer: > I'm well aware that this is going to get me flamed by the dill-farmers, and badly, so: > Shields up, brace for impact and set a course out of this thread, maximum warp!
I kinda like the idea, setting up a priority system within the dilithium exchange might even clear up some backlog. Question is, will the devs agree?
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,588Community Moderator
Issue with this is that it requires a whole new system, and I have no idea if it is possible with how the game is set up. We currently have no system comparable to this suggestion. Honestly I don't know of any game that has a system like that. And with a database that is going to be in constant flux... that's a lot of processing power.
Credit for a rather unique idea though. Haven't seen one like this brought up.
Agreed. A lot of thought went into it and I commend the originator. Thing is, it doesn't address giving players something to spend Dilithium on or invest it in, which is the real crux of the issue.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Agreed. A lot of thought went into it and I commend the originator. Thing is, it doesn't address giving players something to spend Dilithium on or invest it in, which is the real crux of the issue.
I'm aware of that. I clearly stated that it doesn't fix the underlying problem.
The thing is, since you already established that charging dil for something that was fee is a bad idea (100% agreed) you'd have to come up with something new, that is worth spending a lot on.
That's definitely possible, but now the problem:
Once you have that, cryptic needs to sell it of dill, not for Zen and this (from a business point of view) would be a bad decision. It would mean passing on an opportunity to increase their profit.
If they were willing to go that way to fix the exchange, they wouldn't even need anything new. They could just move all the per-character purchase (inventory-slots, doff-roster-slots, retrain-token, etc) to the dil-store.
There's the holodeck on fleet starbases that does absolutely nothing. Maybe providing a way for it to become useful using dil might help? Just a thought. Have it cost x amount of dilithium to unlock each simulation? Or maybe allow players to sink dil into further developing unused areas on ESD? The latter might have more interest, as the newly developed areas could then be open to everyone. It would help clear the DilEx bottle neck without affecting anything purchasable in the the zen store.
> @harkonen#1585 said: > There's the holodeck on fleet starbases that does absolutely nothing. Maybe providing a way for it to become useful using dil might help? Just a thought. Have it cost x amount of dilithium to unlock each simulation? Or maybe allow players to sink dil into further developing unused areas on ESD? The latter might have more interest, as the newly developed areas could then be open to everyone. It would help clear the DilEx bottle neck without affecting anything purchasable in the the zen store.
Interesting idea, however I honestly don’t know how that is going to work due to the fact that it’s going to need some extra processing power potentially not to mention the fact that it is going to need time and effort to design and program the new areas. Let’s refer to New Romulus for a sec, the city on New Romulus hasn’t changed in a few seasons. I don’t know, I would love to see something like this happen, especially if players can actually choose holodeck programs like in the shows.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,588Community Moderator
That in itself is an issue as once you have all the holodeck programs... then what? Not only that... is the idea of holodeck simulations actually enticing enough for players to interact with or will it just be considered a waste of resources and ignored?
What if we reduced the buy order limit from 5000zen to say 2500zen?
I assume that you mean reduce the exchange limit from 1:500 to 1:250. Honestly, that wouldn't do anything. Players with Zen wouldn't suddenly need/want more Dilithium to trade for their Zen, especially since they'd be getting less "bang for their buck". The only people who really make out in that scenario are the Dilithium farmers, who would most likely post even more offers to the Exchange, because they would be getting more Zen for their trades. But that's drawing Dilithium traders, not Zen traders. An increase in the rate would be more likely to draw Zen traders (a verboten subject), but that's also irrelevant, because even if the rate was 1:5000, there's still nothing for them to spend Dilithium on. 🤷♀️
A minor miss-understanding.
Not the cost in lith per zen it should stay 1:500. That was tried in NWO and worked as poorly as you noted.
->> Change the amount of maximum Zen asked for in a single buy order.
Currently a player may have three buy orders for zen each asking for up to 5,000 zen per order.
current:
**order 1 buy 5,000 zen at 500 dilithium each (total order cost 2,500,000 dilithium)
**order 2 buy 5,000 zen at 500 dilithium each
**order 3 buy 5,000 zen at 500 dilithium each
the player has orders for 15,000 zen worth 7.5 million dilithium.
Reduce this for NEW orders at order post time to:
**order 1 buy 2,500 zen at 500 dilithium each (total order cost 1,250,000 dilithium)
**order 2 buy 2,500 zen at 500 dilithium each
**order 3 buy 2,500 zen at 500 dilithium each
total 7,500 zen requested at 3.25 million dilithium
Less total Zen backlog per account at any specific time.
Each bundle of orders should move faster. Players with less than 3.25 million dilithium to leave on the exchange would not notice the limit. Their order would clear faster because the zen queue is smaller.
The example player with 7 million available would wait for the first half to clear then post the other half. His first half should clear a little sooner than original.
The only code change should be to the dilithium exchange window--buy Zen block--"Zen to buy" box to reduce the limit from 5,000 to a lower value. Hopefully the error routine paragraphs are simple.
Today 5,001 Zen is an error with a red box, 5,000 is ok.
New 2,501 Zen is an error with a red box, 2,500 is ok.
Don't bother trying to change/reduce/refund orders already posted, let them work through. Just limit new orders and the 9,099,880 Zen backlog as of 2022-12-30 should reduce as the 3*5,000 Zen orders clear.
I admit the supply of dilitium INTO the game is far larger than the output.
The idea was just a suggestion to limit the impact of the supply/demand imbalance.
A stop-gap, while a more balanced approach probably using both reduced supply and increased demand is developed.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,588Community Moderator
That's... literally the same thing. Cutting the amount of Zen you get in half. The method may be different but the results are the same. And while it may look good at the current situation, it might not be so good when the exchange does come back into balance. You're also assuming that everyone is putting up multiple max orders.
And why would the Zen queue be smaller? Probably because fewer people are USING it because its not worth it. Without addressing Demand, you've effectively DOUBLED the cost for the same amount. Lets say you have a cheeseburger. It moves, but not as fast as you'd like. Your solution is to increase the price of the cheeseburger believing it will move faster at a higher price. That's basically what it boils down to. Twice the work for the same payout.
What if we reduced the buy order limit from 5000zen to say 2500zen?
I assume that you mean reduce the exchange limit from 1:500 to 1:250. Honestly, that wouldn't do anything. Players with Zen wouldn't suddenly need/want more Dilithium to trade for their Zen, especially since they'd be getting less "bang for their buck". The only people who really make out in that scenario are the Dilithium farmers, who would most likely post even more offers to the Exchange, because they would be getting more Zen for their trades. But that's drawing Dilithium traders, not Zen traders. An increase in the rate would be more likely to draw Zen traders (a verboten subject), but that's also irrelevant, because even if the rate was 1:5000, there's still nothing for them to spend Dilithium on. 🤷♀️
A minor miss-understanding.
Not the cost in lith per zen it should stay 1:500. That was tried in NWO and worked as poorly as you noted.
->> Change the amount of maximum Zen asked for in a single buy order.
Currently a player may have three buy orders for zen each asking for up to 5,000 zen per order.
current:
**order 1 buy 5,000 zen at 500 dilithium each (total order cost 2,500,000 dilithium)
**order 2 buy 5,000 zen at 500 dilithium each
**order 3 buy 5,000 zen at 500 dilithium each
the player has orders for 15,000 zen worth 7.5 million dilithium.
Reduce this for NEW orders at order post time to:
**order 1 buy 2,500 zen at 500 dilithium each (total order cost 1,250,000 dilithium)
**order 2 buy 2,500 zen at 500 dilithium each
**order 3 buy 2,500 zen at 500 dilithium each
total 7,500 zen requested at 3.25 million dilithium
Less total Zen backlog per account at any specific time.
Each bundle of orders should move faster. Players with less than 3.25 million dilithium to leave on the exchange would not notice the limit. Their order would clear faster because the zen queue is smaller.
The example player with 7 million available would wait for the first half to clear then post the other half. His first half should clear a little sooner than original.
The only code change should be to the dilithium exchange window--buy Zen block--"Zen to buy" box to reduce the limit from 5,000 to a lower value. Hopefully the error routine paragraphs are simple.
Today 5,001 Zen is an error with a red box, 5,000 is ok.
New 2,501 Zen is an error with a red box, 2,500 is ok.
Don't bother trying to change/reduce/refund orders already posted, let them work through. Just limit new orders and the 9,099,880 Zen backlog as of 2022-12-30 should reduce as the 3*5,000 Zen orders clear.
Orders clear when they hit their turn in the queue. I've had two orders for 5000 Zen each (total 10,000) complete within 30 minutes of the first order Zen starting to trickle in. Reducing it to 2500 per order wouldn't really increase the speed overall - it would just mean having to re-queue for another 30+ days more often and make things more frustrating for those that want Zen.
the solution is to make/add Player DESIRABLE refined Dilithium sinks to the game - not further punish those playing the actual game to earn Dil to purchase Zen. The problem is: It appears anytime something decent is proposed as a direct refined Dil purchase (sink), management goes - "Hey, I'll bet they'll actually pay Zen for that...make it a Zen Purchase instead..."
One thing that been repeatedly suggested by a number of players that I think would be a viable Dil sink is:
Allow players to buy the Tier 6 Ship Levels I - V with Refined Dilithium AS WELL as leaving in the ability to still level them up via combat. Also make it per character/per ship (IE they have to buy up the levels per ship on each individual characters ship in the same way ship leveling works now.)
^^^
Why would this work? Many players level up a ship on a character just to get the Level V Ship Trait for use on the ship they REALLY want to fly with that character. I know myself and many in my Fleet would definitely take a Refined Dil option to be able to do that because leveling up a ship is just a time waster in that you need to set up the ship to be able to function in combat; and for the majority of folks, once the ship is levelled/trait attained, they never really run that ship again.
It also DOESN'T affect the overall frequency of Random queue pops because again, when you're leveling a ship, you usually just find a target rich mission map you can replay; or get together with like minded Fleetmates and run TFs until you get the Level V trait.
Once you get the level V trait you go back to your main ship and do content you really want to do - so no, it doesn't affect players playing content in any negative way and if anything it makes them more useful in any PUG TFs because they are flying the ship they REALLY want to fly.
The only response I've ever heard from a STO Dev Team member was from the now moved on within Cryptic Studios Jeremy
'Borticus' Randal - and his reply was a lackluster: "It's not the worst idea I've heard..."
But yeah, I don't see a real downside here, and it would get a lot of the players who actually play STO a lot to probably use that large refined Dil reserve they have; and for those with little to no Dil the current 'level by combat' is still there as well.
But yeah, the solution is more (and actually DESIREABLE) Refined Dil Sinks added to the game; NOT punishing or artificially restricting the ability of those who go through the process of refining Dil in game and converting in to Zen via the Exchange system.
Taking stuff away from players that they have now is NEVER a good thing.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
> @crypticarmsman said: > Orders clear when they hit their turn in the queue. I've had two orders for 5000 Zen each (total 10,000) complete within 30 minutes of the first order Zen starting to trickle in. Reducing it to 2500 per order wouldn't really increase the speed overall - it would just mean having to re-queue for another 30+ days more often and make things more frustrating for those that want Zen. >
I call BS on this. The current ZEN market is taking almost 60 days to clear an order. if your buy orders cleared in 30 minutes then it occurred when the median Zen price was below 150 Lith/Zen.
I agree with everyones long term observation - the ratio of earning-to-spending Lith is out of balance, and no short term solution is likely to solve this.
LtChaos's idea about just limiting the size of the buy orders until a longer term solution can be arranged is a good one.
It should take an average sell time from 60 days to under 30 - and for what negative impact? players have to list once a month instead of every other. This hurts no one, while benefiting casual players and hardcore farmers alike.
My goal was not to "punish" large order players. I don't want to TAKE anything from anyone.
* No change to the 500:1 ratio.
* No limit on orders per month. (there is no limit now)
* No change to the supply/demand ratio
- because I do not have a magic bullet for that problem
Half the bucket size delivered twice as often.
Dilithium sold per month is now controlled by the Zen posted for sale on the exchange.
That does not change if the buy order limit is 1M Zen or 5,000 Zen or 2,500 Zen.
To take the 10,000 Zen/5,000,000 Dilithium refined a month example
today post 2*5000 Zen wait a month
goal post 2*2500 Zen wait two weeks
post 2*2500 Zen wait couple weeks
Same 10,000 Zen a month, one gets some of it at the front.
No more risk of farmers flooding the market because 3*5000 is the same as 2*3*2500 Zen because this won't fix the 4.5B backlog.
The backlog is getting worse each year.
After a year of forum discussion we have no magic bullet to fix the supply/demand.
I sure have no way to make people HAPPILY consume more Dilithium.
Let's add a bandage: Change the monthly dose into a half doses every two weeks.
> @crypticarmsman said:
> Orders clear when they hit their turn in the queue. I've had two orders for 5000 Zen each (total 10,000) complete within 30 minutes of the first order Zen starting to trickle in. Reducing it to 2500 per order wouldn't really increase the speed overall - it would just mean having to re-queue for another 30+ days more often and make things more frustrating for those that want Zen.
>
I call BS on this. The current ZEN market is taking almost 60 days to clear an order. if your buy orders cleared in 30 minutes then it occurred when the median Zen price was below 150 Lith/Zen.
.
Zen order taking 60 days is not correct. From reports I have seen and people giving me information when the dilex was at 11 million backlog is was taking on average between 35 - 40 days to clear.
I see more than one thread about solutions to the dilithium exchange. I recently watched a video from CasualSAB where he discusses various issues affecting the dilithium exchange. Armed with that information, I propose the following:
1. Restrict sources of what I call "Tradable Dilithium" or "Pure Dilithium" (Dilithium that can be posted to the exchange).
A. Missions
B. Battlezones
C. Asteroid/Fleet mining facility.
D. Other activities that require player participation, such as certain TFOs.
E. All TFOs should have a minimum damage threshold to get credit for completion, and TFOs with waves can have a damage threshold per wave.
2. Refined Dilithium from things like Admiralty, Duty Officers, and other more common sources should be restricted to in-game uses and, therefore, not tradable. (dilithium/reputation stores, reputation/fleet projects, and other in-game services).
A. Instead of dividing dilithium into three or more categories for specific uses (I.E., Fleet-only, Reputation-only), retain the ability to use the majority of dilithium in all areas across the game.
3. Eliminate the category of 'Unrefined Dilithium.'
4. Either change the 'Refine Dilithium' mechanic to 'Purify Dilithium.'
A. Retain the 8,000 unit Purification limit per day.
B. Or once the player has earned 8,000 units of 'Pure Dilithium,' further rewards cease for 24 hours.
6. Disable the sell zen portion of the exchange and allow current orders for zen to be fulfilled, then reopen the dilithium exchange.
Here is a link to that video if you want more information.
(Video link removed due to content violating forum rules. - BMR)
> E. All TFOs should have a minimum damage threshold to get credit for completion, and TFOs with waves can have a damage threshold per wave.
I disagree.
A ) It will be incredibly frustrating for captains who've just reached the level to join TFOs and are still gearing up
B ) It will be incredibly frustrating for casual players when they are placed in a PUG with DPS Lords who vaporize everything
> 2. Refined Dilithium from things like Admiralty, Duty Officers, and other more common sources should be restricted to in-game uses and, therefore, not tradable. (dilithium/reputation stores, reputation/fleet projects, and other in-game services).
> A. Instead of dividing dilithium into three or more categories for specific uses (I.E., Fleet-only, Reputation-only), retain the ability to use the majority of dilithium in all areas across the game.
A ) Making some rewards Fleet-only and Reputation-only rewards act to increase demand from buyers as well as decreasing supply from sellers. This change might reduce supply but it will definitely reduce demand.
B ) It requires new development work to create a new currency of "personal use dil" and have rewards go to it
> 3. Eliminate the category of 'Unrefined Dilithium.'
> 4. Either change the 'Refine Dilithium' mechanic to 'Purify Dilithium.'
> A. Retain the 8,000 unit Purification limit per day.
Why? Renaming "refined" to "purified" doesn't change anything.
> B. Or once the player has earned 8,000 units of 'Pure Dilithium,' further rewards cease for 24 hours.
This punishes anyone who plays a lot on the weekends instead of spread out over the week, and also messes up event rewards.
> 6. Disable the sell zen portion of the exchange and allow current orders for zen to be fulfilled, then reopen the dilithium exchange.
Queues are better for most players than trying to catch the 10-minute window when zen goes back "in stock" again.
Think about trying to get a graphics card, PS5, Xbox One X. This is advocating for the "back in stock" frantic rush to get a confirmed order. It's much less painful to place an order now, then get your zen in 30-40 days whenever it clears.
Comments
Yeah, except, they expressly did away with charging for cosmetic changes, and it's been free for years now. Reinstituting that, and charging Dilithium, would not be wise. As stated, Space Barbie is the true endgame. And when you have the option of multiple costume slots, that you've already paid Zen for, it's rather irksome to have to continue to pay to use them.
I'm glad that you're utilizing the reroll token option. But it is optional. I, for one, do not. So, I either engage with what's already there, or I ignore it until I get something more to my liking. Point is, I have a choice. But I'm all for Dilithium being used to purchase conveniences like shortening timers, rerolling Endeavors, etc.
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
The reasonings will vary. Some are in protest, others aren't.
Any tax on any system in the game will unfairly punish newer players for not having a stockpile or ability to gather quickly to cover said tax. For us Veterans it probably wouldn't be too much of an issue as we have Admiralty and various other sources we can easily take advantage of. Newer players won't have that or the associated knowledge. A negative experience with what could be seen as a cheap, Mobile Game level cash grab (You have x amount of energy that regenerates slowly over time, but you can pay for this item to give you more energy) just to play the game will drive newer players away, not incentivise spending DL.
Its gotta be a sink that will reward the player, thus encouraging them to interact with the sink more. Positive reinforcement, not an absolute requirement just to play.
The Fleet Holdings were the primary sink, but when the big fleets finished, the demand dried up. Yes there are smaller and newer fleets, but they don't have the spending power of larger fleets. And there will be those fleets who want bragging rights to say "we got their first" so they would be more inclined to trade Zen for DL. And some of those fleets also open their stores to others as a Public Service for those who haven't gotten their holdings leveled themselves (although Fed is more active than KDF in that regard, or was last time I needed something KDF side anyways).
There is no magic bullet solution to this complex problem. Its going to take many things working together if we hope to even get HALF of the effect the fleet holdings did years ago. As of right now we do have a few things that work for spike spending (Vanity Shield sale being the biggest), however right now every available option has a finite lifespan. Once that's capped out by the big spenders who got everything they are looking for, the demand drops. We'll need a few sinks that can be repeated infinitely to help drain the supply while encouraging interaction with them.
In theory, something similar to FF14's restoration projects could be a step in that direction, as one of the things players did over there was gather resources for various stages. And we're talking large amounts of resources. It was more complex over there because you have actual gatherer classes and crafter classes. And for the most part it was gatherers either collecting what they needed to craft the gubbins themselves to turn in for progress, or they were selling off the materials to those who had higher level crafters. For STO, the crafting side is not as interactive... but could still be involved in some way. And one of the materials needed could be Refined DL as well. Kinda like a big, community wide fleet holding sort of thing. And it not only encouraged players to participate, it was actually fun. On top of that, the most recent one, which players "built" the new housing district in Ishgard, you can STILL gather and craft the things for the restoration project despite the project already being done, and you will still be rewarded by earning skybuilders scrip to trade for various things, most of which are tradable and even show up on the marketboard for sale.
So there are things that can be explored without resorting to basically a gameplay tax. What is going on now is Cryptic is evaluating various ideas, both big and small. It is easier to test the smaller ones, like the Vanity Shield Sales, but ultimately its going to be a long process that takes time. And while we can throw out ideas, Cryptic is not under any obligation to give us running commentary on their efforts to resolve this. So some people will complain that Cryptic is not doing anything, or prefers the status quo because "money", when the truth is they're working on it behind the scenes, and have ADMITTED that the situation is not ideal either. They don't like it any more than we do.
Neither was it wise to do this with the reroll tokens, yet they decided to do it. And using those isn't that much more optional than switching ships or costumes every day. Players can play the game without doing those things frequently (especially if they have multiple toons for different ships, which also promotes dilithium spending btw).
I won't claim that there wouldn't be any negative effects, but like I said above: any change aimed at getting players to spend more dilithium is either going to be seriously felt - or it's going to be ineffective in the long run.
And don't get me wrong: I'd hate to pay for such services. But then again, I'm also not the one who's suggesting that a solution is needed for the exchange anyway.
Those who do claim a solution is needed and that such a solution needs to revolve around increased dilithium spending also need to be realistic - and admit that it will in some way annoy at least some people and cost them valuable resources in ways they might not like.
Like I said, we can't have our cake and eat it. If one supports the position that dilithium spending needs to increase, then the fact that some of the ideas suggested are going to cost dilithium isn't a valid objection. A choice needs to be made.
Yes, that would be ideal. However, as noted, that will also require continuous additions to be made.
Personally I can't think of any sink that's really rewarding if there's no gear for actual gameplay involved. And such gear will at some point lose its attractiveness or be replaced by other things that the player desires more. (Edit: 'gear' can be interpreted broadly here, to also include things like uniforms - ie, anything you use while playing the game.)
As for the fleets: one could argue they weren't that different from the suggested tax on some services. You want to use a certain store or acquire some unique uniforms, you (or someone else) has to unlock it. The only difference is that that's how it had always been regarding fleets - the idea itself isn't that different.
It needs something NEW, not a 'Dil Tax' on stuff that is already free. Changing something that is widely used, for free, to be a Dil cost will not only have folks out with pitchforks, but it'll hit the game population so hard it'll think it's back in the jurassic era, with less popularity than the Flat Earth Society (It's about the only group I can safely refer to here
The game does not need a Fleet 'thing' because that will automatically segregate the playerbase that won't join one, and a 'world' one won't suffice either. The ONLY thing that will work is a 'per player/character' solution, such as the often proposed and batted back 'player' holdings/apartment. It needs to be a substantive investment like what the Fleets are, but obviously not at such an excessive cost like it is to the few who donate the most in fleets.
BUT
Whatever large scale thing they are thinking about, planning or actually doing is still going to take time, and as they are established now with remote-working, we are going to have to be extra-patient.
I regard amending the look of your character or ship as an intrinsic part of playing the game, just like flying your ship is. What next, charging for switching from one ship to another when wanting to collect ship mastery traits? That might result in players staying in their favourite ship, not amending its look and ultimately deciding to buy fewer ships, skins and costumes in the future.
As for reroll/pass tokens, I think you might be!😁 I remember saying it was unlikely many people will spend dilithium on them at the time of the announcement on Twitter. As has already been said, letting them reroll automatically the next day and using weaker ships cards as reusable pass tokens suffices. My limited supply of refined dilithium is better used for Phoenix upgrades, re-engineering or converting to Zen. Spending on one time consumables that don't have any lasting impact on my game feels too much like a waste. As would paying a fee to use already bought ship skins/visuals and character costumes.
It would not address the total dilithium pool back log. It would do nothing to add to the demand because the zen spent on dilithium per month would not change.
However, it should prioritize casual players with smaller dilithium flows and reduce the time any give order for ANYONE to clear.
Casual players posting a three million dilithium or less a month would not notice the limit change but by breaking the 7,500,000 dilithium farm purchase bulk drops into smaller chunks.
I admit it would force large dilithium flow players to post more often but if a 15,000 zen buy block is taking a month and the buy rate is unchanged they could just post every two weeks.
It WOULD make the backlog feel less daunting.
I assume that you mean reduce the exchange limit from 1:500 to 1:250. Honestly, that wouldn't do anything. Players with Zen wouldn't suddenly need/want more Dilithium to trade for their Zen, especially since they'd be getting less "bang for their buck". The only people who really make out in that scenario are the Dilithium farmers, who would most likely post even more offers to the Exchange, because they would be getting more Zen for their trades. But that's drawing Dilithium traders, not Zen traders. An increase in the rate would be more likely to draw Zen traders (a verboten subject), but that's also irrelevant, because even if the rate was 1:5000, there's still nothing for them to spend Dilithium on. 🤷♀️
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
Maybe, on the other hand - it might as well result in players creating more toons to avoid the dilithium tax of changing to another ship.
And new toons usually mean more spending of dilithium too.
Besides, one might as well argue that acquiring gear is an intrinsic part of the game. Yet few people seem to have any problem with a good part of that being locked behind pay walls (either pay walls that require spending dilithium or even rarer resources). Indeed, the fleet holdings are generally presented as a good thing in that they increased spending of dilithium. So although I understand the opposition to a service-dilithium tax, it is also not that different from what we already have, in my opinion.
And besides all that - whether we spend dilithium on one thing or the other, spending will need to increase. That much everyone seems to agree on. So the end result will likely be the same: players have less dilithium. That's the whole idea.
It is not a cure for the problem though, but a treatment for the symptoms.
It is based on the assumption that the hardcore 24/7 dill farmers are a major factor for this problem (that seems to be the working theory).
Changes to the dill-economy don't have any short-term effect (beyond miner fluctuations in the backlog) because the farmers have huge amount of dill in stock, and will place a new order as soon as one is served.
All the suggestions I've seen her have massive collateral damage, hitting "normal players" (the non-Dill-Farmers, lacking a better term) harder than those farmers.
My proposal is a surgical strike that actually helps the "normal player".
Currently the Dill-exchange is first-come-first-served, and that's what I would change.
Give the orders priority based on the players recent exchange activity. (This data is already being stored by the game. I can see my exchange history 10 years back.)
Looking at the last 6 months seems reasonable to me, but the exact timeframe isn't essential.
This is the highest priority category and these orders would be served first.
These orders would be served if there are no open orders from cat 1.
This would be the lowest priority category. These Orders would only be served if there are no open orders from Cat1,2,3 and 4.
The dill-farmers would be here.
Orders within the same category would still be first-come-first-served.
All these Numbers are just examples, I'm sure Cryptic can come up with better numbers when they look at the statistic from exchange transaction.
What this does NOT do:
What it does:
Of course the system would need to be dynamic:
Disclaimer:
I'm well aware that this is going to get me flamed by the dill-farmers, and badly, so:
Shields up, brace for impact and set a course out of this thread, maximum warp!
It is not a cure for the problem though, but a treatment for the symptoms.
It is based on the assumption that the hardcore 24/7 dill farmers are a major factor for this problem (that seems to be the working theory).
Changes to the dill-economy don't have any short-term effect (beyond miner fluctuations in the backlog) because the farmers have huge amount of dill in stock, and will place a new order as soon as one is served.
All the suggestions I've seen her have massive collateral damage, hitting "normal players" (the non-Dill-Farmers, lacking a better term) harder than those farmers.
My proposal is a surgical strike that actually helps the "normal player".
Currently the Dill-exchange is first-come-first-served, and that's what I would change.
Give the orders priority based on the players recent exchange activity. (This data is already being stored by the game. I can see my exchange history 10 years back.)
Looking at the last 6 months seems reasonable to me, but the exact timeframe isn't essential.
This is the highest priority category and these orders would be served first.
These orders would be served if there are no open orders from cat 1.
This would be the lowest priority category. These Orders would only be served if there are no open orders from Cat1,2,3 and 4.
The dill-farmers would be here.
Orders within the same category would still be first-come-first-served.
All these Numbers are just examples, I'm sure Cryptic can come up with better numbers when they look at the statistic from exchange transaction.
What this does NOT do:
What it does:
- The "normal players" who occasionally place a small order would have them served rather quickly.
- The dill-farmers who flood the exchange with massive amounts of dill and immediately place new orders when one has been served will have to wait substantial longer.
Of course the system would need to be dynamic:Disclaimer:
I'm well aware that this is going to get me flamed by the dill-farmers, and badly, so:
Shields up, brace for impact and set a course out of this thread, maximum warp!
> I have a suggestion that might actually work.
> It is not a cure for the problem though, but a treatment for the symptoms.
>
> It is based on the assumption that the hardcore 24/7 dill farmers are a major factor for this problem (that seems to be the working theory).
> Changes to the dill-economy don't have any short-term effect (beyond miner fluctuations in the backlog) because the farmers have huge amount of dill in stock, and will place a new order as soon as one is served.
>
> All the suggestions I've seen her have massive collateral damage, hitting "normal players" (the non-Dill-Farmers, lacking a better term) harder than those farmers.
> My proposal is a surgical strike that actually helps the "normal player".
>
> Currently the Dill-exchange is first-come-first-served, and that's what I would change.
> Give the orders priority based on the players recent exchange activity. (This data is already being stored by the game. I can see my exchange history 10 years back.)
>
> Looking at the last 6 months seems reasonable to me, but the exact timeframe isn't essential.
> * Category 1 would be orders from players who haven't bought any zen on the exchange in the last 6 months.
> This is the highest priority category and these orders would be served first.
> * Category 2 could be small purchases e.g. up to 1K zen in the last 6 months.
> These orders would be served if there are no open orders from cat 1.
> * Cat 3 with up to 3k Zen purchased (a T6 Ship)
> * Cat 4 up to 10k
> * Cat 5 more than 10k Zen purchased on the dill-exchange in the last 6 months.
> This would be the lowest priority category. These Orders would only be served if there are no open orders from Cat1,2,3 and 4.
> The dill-farmers would be here.
>
>
> Orders within the same category would still be first-come-first-served.
>
> All these Numbers are just examples, I'm sure Cryptic can come up with better numbers when they look at the statistic from exchange transaction.
>
> What this does NOT do:* It doesn't change the backlog. You'd still see the same numbers.
> * It doesn't change the amount of dill purchased
>
>
> What it does:* The "normal players" who occasionally place a small order would have them served rather quickly.
> * The dill-farmers who flood the exchange with massive amounts of dill and immediately place new orders when one has been served will have to wait substantial longer.
>
> Of course the system would need to be dynamic:* With time an older transaction might fall out of the 6-month-timeframe, and the players current orders would be upgraded to a better category.
> * On the other hand, if a player has placed multiple orders, and the first one gets served, the other may be pushed to a lower priority, as he now has more recent purchases.
>
>
> Disclaimer:
> I'm well aware that this is going to get me flamed by the dill-farmers, and badly, so:
> Shields up, brace for impact and set a course out of this thread, maximum warp!
I kinda like the idea, setting up a priority system within the dilithium exchange might even clear up some backlog. Question is, will the devs agree?
Credit for a rather unique idea though. Haven't seen one like this brought up.
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Moderation Problems/Issues? Please contact the Community Manager
Terms of Service / Community Rules and Policies / FCT
Facebook / Twitter / Twitch
I'm aware of that. I clearly stated that it doesn't fix the underlying problem.
The thing is, since you already established that charging dil for something that was fee is a bad idea (100% agreed) you'd have to come up with something new, that is worth spending a lot on.
That's definitely possible, but now the problem:
Once you have that, cryptic needs to sell it of dill, not for Zen and this (from a business point of view) would be a bad decision. It would mean passing on an opportunity to increase their profit.
If they were willing to go that way to fix the exchange, they wouldn't even need anything new. They could just move all the per-character purchase (inventory-slots, doff-roster-slots, retrain-token, etc) to the dil-store.
> There's the holodeck on fleet starbases that does absolutely nothing. Maybe providing a way for it to become useful using dil might help? Just a thought. Have it cost x amount of dilithium to unlock each simulation? Or maybe allow players to sink dil into further developing unused areas on ESD? The latter might have more interest, as the newly developed areas could then be open to everyone. It would help clear the DilEx bottle neck without affecting anything purchasable in the the zen store.
Interesting idea, however I honestly don’t know how that is going to work due to the fact that it’s going to need some extra processing power potentially not to mention the fact that it is going to need time and effort to design and program the new areas. Let’s refer to New Romulus for a sec, the city on New Romulus hasn’t changed in a few seasons.
I don’t know, I would love to see something like this happen, especially if players can actually choose holodeck programs like in the shows.
A minor miss-understanding.
Not the cost in lith per zen it should stay 1:500. That was tried in NWO and worked as poorly as you noted.
->> Change the amount of maximum Zen asked for in a single buy order.
Currently a player may have three buy orders for zen each asking for up to 5,000 zen per order.
current:
**order 1 buy 5,000 zen at 500 dilithium each (total order cost 2,500,000 dilithium)
**order 2 buy 5,000 zen at 500 dilithium each
**order 3 buy 5,000 zen at 500 dilithium each
the player has orders for 15,000 zen worth 7.5 million dilithium.
Reduce this for NEW orders at order post time to:
**order 1 buy 2,500 zen at 500 dilithium each (total order cost 1,250,000 dilithium)
**order 2 buy 2,500 zen at 500 dilithium each
**order 3 buy 2,500 zen at 500 dilithium each
total 7,500 zen requested at 3.25 million dilithium
Less total Zen backlog per account at any specific time.
Each bundle of orders should move faster. Players with less than 3.25 million dilithium to leave on the exchange would not notice the limit. Their order would clear faster because the zen queue is smaller.
The example player with 7 million available would wait for the first half to clear then post the other half. His first half should clear a little sooner than original.
The only code change should be to the dilithium exchange window--buy Zen block--"Zen to buy" box to reduce the limit from 5,000 to a lower value. Hopefully the error routine paragraphs are simple.
Today 5,001 Zen is an error with a red box, 5,000 is ok.
New 2,501 Zen is an error with a red box, 2,500 is ok.
Don't bother trying to change/reduce/refund orders already posted, let them work through. Just limit new orders and the 9,099,880 Zen backlog as of 2022-12-30 should reduce as the 3*5,000 Zen orders clear.
The idea was just a suggestion to limit the impact of the supply/demand imbalance.
A stop-gap, while a more balanced approach probably using both reduced supply and increased demand is developed.
And why would the Zen queue be smaller? Probably because fewer people are USING it because its not worth it. Without addressing Demand, you've effectively DOUBLED the cost for the same amount. Lets say you have a cheeseburger. It moves, but not as fast as you'd like. Your solution is to increase the price of the cheeseburger believing it will move faster at a higher price. That's basically what it boils down to. Twice the work for the same payout.
Orders clear when they hit their turn in the queue. I've had two orders for 5000 Zen each (total 10,000) complete within 30 minutes of the first order Zen starting to trickle in. Reducing it to 2500 per order wouldn't really increase the speed overall - it would just mean having to re-queue for another 30+ days more often and make things more frustrating for those that want Zen.
the solution is to make/add Player DESIRABLE refined Dilithium sinks to the game - not further punish those playing the actual game to earn Dil to purchase Zen. The problem is: It appears anytime something decent is proposed as a direct refined Dil purchase (sink), management goes - "Hey, I'll bet they'll actually pay Zen for that...make it a Zen Purchase instead..."
One thing that been repeatedly suggested by a number of players that I think would be a viable Dil sink is:
Allow players to buy the Tier 6 Ship Levels I - V with Refined Dilithium AS WELL as leaving in the ability to still level them up via combat. Also make it per character/per ship (IE they have to buy up the levels per ship on each individual characters ship in the same way ship leveling works now.)
^^^
Why would this work? Many players level up a ship on a character just to get the Level V Ship Trait for use on the ship they REALLY want to fly with that character. I know myself and many in my Fleet would definitely take a Refined Dil option to be able to do that because leveling up a ship is just a time waster in that you need to set up the ship to be able to function in combat; and for the majority of folks, once the ship is levelled/trait attained, they never really run that ship again.
It also DOESN'T affect the overall frequency of Random queue pops because again, when you're leveling a ship, you usually just find a target rich mission map you can replay; or get together with like minded Fleetmates and run TFs until you get the Level V trait.
Once you get the level V trait you go back to your main ship and do content you really want to do - so no, it doesn't affect players playing content in any negative way and if anything it makes them more useful in any PUG TFs because they are flying the ship they REALLY want to fly.
The only response I've ever heard from a STO Dev Team member was from the now moved on within Cryptic Studios Jeremy
'Borticus' Randal - and his reply was a lackluster: "It's not the worst idea I've heard..."
But yeah, I don't see a real downside here, and it would get a lot of the players who actually play STO a lot to probably use that large refined Dil reserve they have; and for those with little to no Dil the current 'level by combat' is still there as well.
But yeah, the solution is more (and actually DESIREABLE) Refined Dil Sinks added to the game; NOT punishing or artificially restricting the ability of those who go through the process of refining Dil in game and converting in to Zen via the Exchange system.
Taking stuff away from players that they have now is NEVER a good thing.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
> Orders clear when they hit their turn in the queue. I've had two orders for 5000 Zen each (total 10,000) complete within 30 minutes of the first order Zen starting to trickle in. Reducing it to 2500 per order wouldn't really increase the speed overall - it would just mean having to re-queue for another 30+ days more often and make things more frustrating for those that want Zen.
>
I call BS on this. The current ZEN market is taking almost 60 days to clear an order. if your buy orders cleared in 30 minutes then it occurred when the median Zen price was below 150 Lith/Zen.
I agree with everyones long term observation - the ratio of earning-to-spending Lith is out of balance, and no short term solution is likely to solve this.
LtChaos's idea about just limiting the size of the buy orders until a longer term solution can be arranged is a good one.
It should take an average sell time from 60 days to under 30 - and for what negative impact? players have to list once a month instead of every other. This hurts no one, while benefiting casual players and hardcore farmers alike.
My goal was not to "punish" large order players. I don't want to TAKE anything from anyone.
* No change to the 500:1 ratio.
* No limit on orders per month. (there is no limit now)
* No change to the supply/demand ratio
- because I do not have a magic bullet for that problem
Half the bucket size delivered twice as often.
Dilithium sold per month is now controlled by the Zen posted for sale on the exchange.
That does not change if the buy order limit is 1M Zen or 5,000 Zen or 2,500 Zen.
To take the 10,000 Zen/5,000,000 Dilithium refined a month example
today post 2*5000 Zen wait a month
goal post 2*2500 Zen wait two weeks
post 2*2500 Zen wait couple weeks
Same 10,000 Zen a month, one gets some of it at the front.
No more risk of farmers flooding the market because 3*5000 is the same as 2*3*2500 Zen because this won't fix the 4.5B backlog.
The backlog is getting worse each year.
After a year of forum discussion we have no magic bullet to fix the supply/demand.
I sure have no way to make people HAPPILY consume more Dilithium.
Let's add a bandage: Change the monthly dose into a half doses every two weeks.
Zen order taking 60 days is not correct. From reports I have seen and people giving me information when the dilex was at 11 million backlog is was taking on average between 35 - 40 days to clear.
1. Restrict sources of what I call "Tradable Dilithium" or "Pure Dilithium" (Dilithium that can be posted to the exchange).
A. Missions
B. Battlezones
C. Asteroid/Fleet mining facility.
D. Other activities that require player participation, such as certain TFOs.
E. All TFOs should have a minimum damage threshold to get credit for completion, and TFOs with waves can have a damage threshold per wave.
2. Refined Dilithium from things like Admiralty, Duty Officers, and other more common sources should be restricted to in-game uses and, therefore, not tradable. (dilithium/reputation stores, reputation/fleet projects, and other in-game services).
A. Instead of dividing dilithium into three or more categories for specific uses (I.E., Fleet-only, Reputation-only), retain the ability to use the majority of dilithium in all areas across the game.
3. Eliminate the category of 'Unrefined Dilithium.'
4. Either change the 'Refine Dilithium' mechanic to 'Purify Dilithium.'
A. Retain the 8,000 unit Purification limit per day.
B. Or once the player has earned 8,000 units of 'Pure Dilithium,' further rewards cease for 24 hours.
6. Disable the sell zen portion of the exchange and allow current orders for zen to be fulfilled, then reopen the dilithium exchange.
Here is a link to that video if you want more information.
(Video link removed due to content violating forum rules. - BMR)
I disagree.
A ) It will be incredibly frustrating for captains who've just reached the level to join TFOs and are still gearing up
B ) It will be incredibly frustrating for casual players when they are placed in a PUG with DPS Lords who vaporize everything
> 2. Refined Dilithium from things like Admiralty, Duty Officers, and other more common sources should be restricted to in-game uses and, therefore, not tradable. (dilithium/reputation stores, reputation/fleet projects, and other in-game services).
> A. Instead of dividing dilithium into three or more categories for specific uses (I.E., Fleet-only, Reputation-only), retain the ability to use the majority of dilithium in all areas across the game.
A ) Making some rewards Fleet-only and Reputation-only rewards act to increase demand from buyers as well as decreasing supply from sellers. This change might reduce supply but it will definitely reduce demand.
B ) It requires new development work to create a new currency of "personal use dil" and have rewards go to it
> 3. Eliminate the category of 'Unrefined Dilithium.'
> 4. Either change the 'Refine Dilithium' mechanic to 'Purify Dilithium.'
> A. Retain the 8,000 unit Purification limit per day.
Why? Renaming "refined" to "purified" doesn't change anything.
> B. Or once the player has earned 8,000 units of 'Pure Dilithium,' further rewards cease for 24 hours.
This punishes anyone who plays a lot on the weekends instead of spread out over the week, and also messes up event rewards.
> 6. Disable the sell zen portion of the exchange and allow current orders for zen to be fulfilled, then reopen the dilithium exchange.
Queues are better for most players than trying to catch the 10-minute window when zen goes back "in stock" again.
Think about trying to get a graphics card, PS5, Xbox One X. This is advocating for the "back in stock" frantic rush to get a confirmed order. It's much less painful to place an order now, then get your zen in 30-40 days whenever it clears.
I would much prefer my order 'wait in line' than to wonder when the exchange will 'open' again.
I also agree with the rest of his post.