... While a fleet might start with just one person, if they bring friends to the game, they can grow that fleet. The founder of the fleet can decide how much shared effort in advancing the holding in question would be expected of his friends. But if they start out willing to shoulder all the long-term burden, theyn keeping that expectation will be easier if their friends don't want to do the grind. But I suspect that if they really are the founders' friends, they will contribute, if only to see the holding evolve and grow faster, with the satisfaction of knowing that they helped make it happen.
For either one of these ideas, very little would need to change.
There's nothing really stopping players from forming new fleets and shouldering the long term burden. They would never have to be concerned about dilithium to zen orders ever again.
And IF their implementation actually results in an increase in Zen sales, new holdings may be forthcoming. Even if they might be smaller in scope to minimuize the level of development effort involved.
Previous holdings, including the Colony holding (which requires about $1800 usd of dilithium to complete), did result in an increase in zen sales for quite a few years. However, no new holdings were forthcoming, even with the increase in zen sales.
I agree with the decision to not have new holdings, as the existing ones should keep any new fleets going for not only the immediate future but the next five to ten years.
There are existing fleets that never did finish the Colony holding due to the cost involved.
Perhaps with the game already being free to play there might not be a business model available to make things much better than they already are?
The game was Free to Play when the Dilithium/Zen exchanged used to work effectively. The difference between now and then is that then, RD had a use for those who have Zen they could trade for it, and Now, it doesn't. Give RD a use other than trading for Zen again, and the exchange will work effectively again. It cannot be in the form of short-term, one-off RD sinks. It needs to be long-term and recurring. Otherwise, it won't be effective.
From my perspective the game still is free to play and the exchange still does work effectively.
Perhaps with the game already being free to play there might not be a business model available to make things much better than they already are?
The game was Free to Play when the Dilithium/Zen exchanged used to work effectively. The difference between now and then is that then, RD had a use for those who have Zen they could trade for it, and Now, it doesn't. Give RD a use other than trading for Zen again, and the exchange will work effectively again. It cannot be in the form of short-term, one-off RD sinks. It needs to be long-term and recurring. Otherwise, it won't be effective.
From my perspective the game still is free to play and the exchange still does work effectively.
I guess it all depends on how one defines "effective."
I define it in this context as being able to post make an order for Zen and getting it filled INSTANTLY rather than having to wait 30+ days for it to complete. But because those with Zen to spare have little or no use for RD, they are not trading their Zen away like they used to, which is the real issue plaguing the exchange. a 1:500 Z:RD rate is fine, so long as there is enough demand for RD to make it worth trading what required real money to get. It used to be, but now its not.
How do you define "effective" in the context of the exchange?
I don't see an issue with waiting 30 days to get a dil to zen order filled, as the order is still being filled. Perhaps this is an inconvenience?
I haven't ever placed a dil to zen order in the >10 years that I've played STO. Am quite happy that I now have a little zen and some refined dilithium to spare.
There almost seems to be a preoccupation with "those who have zen to spare" in this conversation. I apologize for no longer purchasing dilithium with zen to the extent I have in the past. Those days are pretty well gone for me, as the holdings are either in the process of being completed or have recently been completed. I've certainly had enough of them, having been involved in both building and funding them for both factions since they were introduced ten years ago.
It's gonna be great being able to afford and purchase a C-Store ship once every few years now that the holdings are out of the way.
Perhaps with the game already being free to play there might not be a business model available to make things much better than they already are?
The game was Free to Play when the Dilithium/Zen exchanged used to work effectively. The difference between now and then is that then, RD had a use for those who have Zen they could trade for it, and Now, it doesn't. Give RD a use other than trading for Zen again, and the exchange will work effectively again. It cannot be in the form of short-term, one-off RD sinks. It needs to be long-term and recurring. Otherwise, it won't be effective.
From my perspective the game still is free to play and the exchange still does work effectively.
I guess it all depends on how one defines "effective."
I define it in this context as being able to post make an order for Zen and getting it filled INSTANTLY rather than having to wait 30+ days for it to complete. But because those with Zen to spare have little or no use for RD, they are not trading their Zen away like they used to, which is the real issue plaguing the exchange. a 1:500 Z:RD rate is fine, so long as there is enough demand for RD to make it worth trading what required real money to get. It used to be, but now its not.
How do you define "effective" in the context of the exchange?
I don't see an issue with waiting 30 days to get a dil to zen order filled, as the order is still being filled. Perhaps this is an inconvenience?
I haven't ever placed a dil to zen order in the >10 years that I've played STO. Am quite happy that I now have a little zen and some refined dilithium to spare.
There almost seems to be a preoccupation with "those who have zen to spare" in this conversation. I apologize for no longer purchasing dilithium with zen to the extent I have in the past. Those days are pretty well gone for me, as the holdings are either in the process of being completed or have recently been completed. I've certainly had enough of them, having been involved in both building and funding them for both factions since they were introduced ten years ago.
It's gonna be great being able to afford and purchase a C-Store ship once every few years now that the holdings are out of the way.
Not everyone is where you are at. And a LOT of people do have a problem with having to wait 30+ days to get an order for Zen filled. You might not have ever tried to get Zen for RD. but the people who truly want to play this game for free and still get stuff for Zen do. They take however long they take depending on their playstyle to gether the RD they need, and then are being forced to wait 30+ more days to get thenZen, because not enough people want to trade Zen for RD now, because there is nothing being offered for RD that they either need or want. But if they did decide to throw zen at the RD sellers, they would get their RD ibnstantly.
There is a disparity at work here because Cryptic currently develops stuff that mkeeps Zen in demand without also producing stuff that keeps RD in demand.
YOU my not see a problem, because the proble does not impact YOU. But it's not just about YOU, is it?
I'm not seeing a barrier to people who want to play this game for free. I'm FTP now as well. I'm sorry that there's a 30 day wait for Zen shop items that are paid for with refined dilithium. That must be inconvenient.
I get the feeling that everyone in this thread is a dill-seller.
Let me give you a different perspective.
I used to buy dill - "used to" as in "not any more".
What has changed? The dill demand? No.
I need tons of dill for acquiring and upgrading Gear for about 20 alts, for the Fleet etc.
There's enough demand.
The thing that changed is the demand for Zen.
A few years ago the C-Store was cheap, and my monthly subscriber Zen was enough to eventually get everything I wanted, so I started to buy the dill I needed.
That changed drastically. With Legendary Packs and Mudd's there's now a lot of expensive stuff I want and the subscriber Zen isn't nearly enough.
So I considered buying Zen for Dill. I'm sure may former Dill-buyer switched to the Dill-Seller side.
I didn't. I need my Dill, so I buy my Zen with my Credit Card.
Zen is a limited resource though - limited by how much I'm willing to spend on the game each month, and
there's sill a lot in the C-Store I want.
All of it is a better use for my Zen than converting it to dill, and Cryptic keeps releasing new expensive stuff faster than I can work though my shopping-list.
So I buy my Zen with $ and farm my Dill.
I just don't have any Zen to spare for Dill, and nothing Cryptic can do will change that.
The problem is on the Zen-side of the equation, it can't be fixed on the Dill-side.
While it could theoretically be fixed on the Zen-side, that would cut into the profit of the Game, so that's not gonna happen.
What if dilithium were to be used for its original purpose…as starship fuel? In this scenario, it would cost the player a small amount of dilithium to fly around the galaxy and thus create a reoccurring sink for individual players.
What if dilithium were to be used for its original purpose…as starship fuel? In this scenario, it would cost the player a small amount of dilithium to fly around the galaxy and thus create a reoccurring sink for individual players.
If you want to cause a mass exodus from the game this will certainly do it. I'm not paying dilithium for something that's been free since the start of the game. If you want people to engage with the dilithium sink it needs to provide them with some kind of value. this wouldn't.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
What if dilithium were to be used for its original purpose…as starship fuel? In this scenario, it would cost the player a small amount of dilithium to fly around the galaxy and thus create a reoccurring sink for individual players.
If you want to cause a mass exodus from the game this will certainly do it. I'm not paying dilithium for something that's been free since the start of the game. If you want people to engage with the dilithium sink it needs to provide them with some kind of value. this wouldn't.
Echoed. As I've pointed out before, making players pay for something that has been free up to now, is not the needed solution. All it'll do is infuriate players and make them not want to engage anymore.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
So look at it this way:
If an idea is a TAX that players HAVE to pay just to play the game, its DOA ain't gonna happen. That's almost mobile game level BS, and unfairly impacts brand new players who don't have a stockpile.
If there is no incentive or not rewarding to the players, its going to be ignored for the most part, for example the Endeavor Reroll tokens being removed from random drops and made available for DL. Far as I know most players just outright ignored it as before that they would randomly drop from Endeavor boxes. Better to just skip a day if its an Endeavor you don't wanna do rather than spend DL on a Reroll token that you used to get randomly for free just by doing it.
And I believe there was a similar skip token for Admiralty that fell into the same boat. Easier to just send a shuttle to purposefully fail it to get it out of the way than pay DL for something you used to get for free just by doing it.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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Having to pay dilithium just to fly your ship would be a very bad idea indeed. That being said, Blackdragon's line of thinking could lead to some possible solutions (or parts thereof).
I mean, obviously ship movement is too important to tax, but what about things like the ship customisation services, tailor services. Basically: things that are used frequently, but not something you have to do all the time just to be able to play the game?
Note: I'm not in favour of any kind of 'dilithium tax' but it is arguably the easiest way to increase dilithium spending.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
Having to pay dilithium just to fly your ship would be a very bad idea indeed. That being said, Blackdragon's line of thinking could lead to some possible solutions (or parts thereof).
I mean, obviously ship movement is too important to tax, but what about things like the ship customisation services, tailor services. Basically: things that are used frequently, but not something you have to do all the time just to be able to play the game?
Note: I'm not in favour of any kind of 'dilithium tax' but it is arguably the easiest way to increase dilithium spending.
Both used to cost ECs. That was removed and is now free. I doubt making it cost Dilithium is going to be popular.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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Yes, as stated multiple times already, "taxing" free things will not go over well.
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I mean, obviously ship movement is too important to tax, but what about things like the ship customisation services, tailor services. Basically: things that are used frequently, but not something you have to do all the time just to be able to play the game?
Surely Space Barbie is as important as ship movement once you reach endgame though. Having already bought the skins and outfits, charging again every time you try out a new look wouldn't sit well with me.
Especially since Space Barbie is the true endgame. 😁
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> @rattler2 said: > Both used to cost ECs. That was removed and is now free. I doubt making it cost Dilithium is going to be popular.
It may not be popular, but a lot of worthwhile solutions are unpopular. Think of it this way, there are countless ways to get dilithium either through mining, DOFF missions or quests in addition to the exchange.
The only real issue is the cost. If the cost is low enough, players shouldn’t have too much of a problem. Thing is that everyone fears that the cost is going to be massive and it doesn’t necessarily have to be.
> @rattler2 said:
> Both used to cost ECs. That was removed and is now free. I doubt making it cost Dilithium is going to be popular.
It may not be popular, but a lot of worthwhile solutions are unpopular. Think of it this way, there are countless ways to get dilithium either through mining, DOFF missions or quests in addition to the exchange.
True. One way or another, more dilithium spending is going to cost people dilithium.
> @rattler2 said:
> Both used to cost ECs. That was removed and is now free. I doubt making it cost Dilithium is going to be popular.
It may not be popular, but a lot of worthwhile solutions are unpopular. Think of it this way, there are countless ways to get dilithium either through mining, DOFF missions or quests in addition to the exchange.
True. One way or another, more dilithium spending is going to cost people dilithium.
Well, no one's going to argue with that. Players are actually asking for things to spend their Dilithium on. But those things have to have value to players for them to invest in them. But adding a cost/tax to something that has been free up to now, is not the way to go. It essentially forces players to pay to play the game. Whatever is implemented has to be optional.
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Having to pay dilithium just to fly your ship would be a very bad idea indeed. That being said, Blackdragon's line of thinking could lead to some possible solutions (or parts thereof).
I mean, obviously ship movement is too important to tax, but what about things like the ship customisation services, tailor services. Basically: things that are used frequently, but not something you have to do all the time just to be able to play the game?
Note: I'm not in favour of any kind of 'dilithium tax' but it is arguably the easiest way to increase dilithium spending.
Both used to cost ECs. That was removed and is now free. I doubt making it cost Dilithium is going to be popular.
I mean, obviously ship movement is too important to tax, but what about things like the ship customisation services, tailor services. Basically: things that are used frequently, but not something you have to do all the time just to be able to play the game?
Surely Space Barbie is as important as ship movement once you reach endgame though. Having already bought the skins and outfits, charging again every time you try out a new look wouldn't sit well with me.
Of course it's not going to be popular. That's obvious.
What measure that is going to cost people something is going to be popular though?
One way or the other, people seem to agree that dilithium spending needs to increase (on other things than buying Zen). That means that you have to accept that there will be a cost in dilithium terms.
The only alternative is that they add things that require a lot of dilithium to acquire them. Like vanity shields, which is either only a temporary solution or it will forever take away Dev time from other things because they need to be designed and implemented continuously to remain effective.
Well, Vanity Shields and the Phoenix Box are coming back again soon, so hopefully, that'll drain a bit of Dilithium.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
I already said that it had to be rewarding to the player. They have to want to spend their DL on it. Not "I have no choice in the matter" because depending on what it is, players will just outright ignore it and not interact with that if its small enough and doesn't impact gameplay (reroll/skip tokens), or light the forums on fire if its large and affects their ability to play (any proposed tax on in game travel).
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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I already said that it had to be rewarding to the player. They have to want to spend their DL on it. Not "I have no choice in the matter" because depending on what it is, players will just outright ignore it and not interact with that if its small enough and doesn't impact gameplay (reroll/skip tokens), or light the forums on fire if its large and affects their ability to play (any proposed tax on in game travel).
Well it is rewarding if it means they can change the look of their ships.
And to be honest, I'm actually buying reroll tokens quite often. Surely I'm not the only one who's crazy enough to do this?
Comments
Previous holdings, including the Colony holding (which requires about $1800 usd of dilithium to complete), did result in an increase in zen sales for quite a few years. However, no new holdings were forthcoming, even with the increase in zen sales.
I agree with the decision to not have new holdings, as the existing ones should keep any new fleets going for not only the immediate future but the next five to ten years.
There are existing fleets that never did finish the Colony holding due to the cost involved.
From my perspective the game still is free to play and the exchange still does work effectively.
I haven't ever placed a dil to zen order in the >10 years that I've played STO. Am quite happy that I now have a little zen and some refined dilithium to spare.
There almost seems to be a preoccupation with "those who have zen to spare" in this conversation. I apologize for no longer purchasing dilithium with zen to the extent I have in the past. Those days are pretty well gone for me, as the holdings are either in the process of being completed or have recently been completed. I've certainly had enough of them, having been involved in both building and funding them for both factions since they were introduced ten years ago.
It's gonna be great being able to afford and purchase a C-Store ship once every few years now that the holdings are out of the way.
I'm not seeing a barrier to people who want to play this game for free. I'm FTP now as well. I'm sorry that there's a 30 day wait for Zen shop items that are paid for with refined dilithium. That must be inconvenient.
Let me give you a different perspective.
I used to buy dill - "used to" as in "not any more".
What has changed? The dill demand? No.
I need tons of dill for acquiring and upgrading Gear for about 20 alts, for the Fleet etc.
There's enough demand.
The thing that changed is the demand for Zen.
A few years ago the C-Store was cheap, and my monthly subscriber Zen was enough to eventually get everything I wanted, so I started to buy the dill I needed.
That changed drastically. With Legendary Packs and Mudd's there's now a lot of expensive stuff I want and the subscriber Zen isn't nearly enough.
So I considered buying Zen for Dill. I'm sure may former Dill-buyer switched to the Dill-Seller side.
I didn't. I need my Dill, so I buy my Zen with my Credit Card.
Zen is a limited resource though - limited by how much I'm willing to spend on the game each month, and
there's sill a lot in the C-Store I want.
All of it is a better use for my Zen than converting it to dill, and Cryptic keeps releasing new expensive stuff faster than I can work though my shopping-list.
So I buy my Zen with $ and farm my Dill.
I just don't have any Zen to spare for Dill, and nothing Cryptic can do will change that.
The problem is on the Zen-side of the equation, it can't be fixed on the Dill-side.
While it could theoretically be fixed on the Zen-side, that would cut into the profit of the Game, so that's not gonna happen.
If you want to cause a mass exodus from the game this will certainly do it. I'm not paying dilithium for something that's been free since the start of the game. If you want people to engage with the dilithium sink it needs to provide them with some kind of value. this wouldn't.
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Echoed. As I've pointed out before, making players pay for something that has been free up to now, is not the needed solution. All it'll do is infuriate players and make them not want to engage anymore.
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If an idea is a TAX that players HAVE to pay just to play the game, its DOA ain't gonna happen. That's almost mobile game level BS, and unfairly impacts brand new players who don't have a stockpile.
If there is no incentive or not rewarding to the players, its going to be ignored for the most part, for example the Endeavor Reroll tokens being removed from random drops and made available for DL. Far as I know most players just outright ignored it as before that they would randomly drop from Endeavor boxes. Better to just skip a day if its an Endeavor you don't wanna do rather than spend DL on a Reroll token that you used to get randomly for free just by doing it.
And I believe there was a similar skip token for Admiralty that fell into the same boat. Easier to just send a shuttle to purposefully fail it to get it out of the way than pay DL for something you used to get for free just by doing it.
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I mean, obviously ship movement is too important to tax, but what about things like the ship customisation services, tailor services. Basically: things that are used frequently, but not something you have to do all the time just to be able to play the game?
Note: I'm not in favour of any kind of 'dilithium tax' but it is arguably the easiest way to increase dilithium spending.
Both used to cost ECs. That was removed and is now free. I doubt making it cost Dilithium is going to be popular.
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Surely Space Barbie is as important as ship movement once you reach endgame though. Having already bought the skins and outfits, charging again every time you try out a new look wouldn't sit well with me.
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> Both used to cost ECs. That was removed and is now free. I doubt making it cost Dilithium is going to be popular.
It may not be popular, but a lot of worthwhile solutions are unpopular. Think of it this way, there are countless ways to get dilithium either through mining, DOFF missions or quests in addition to the exchange.
True. One way or another, more dilithium spending is going to cost people dilithium.
Well, no one's going to argue with that. Players are actually asking for things to spend their Dilithium on. But those things have to have value to players for them to invest in them. But adding a cost/tax to something that has been free up to now, is not the way to go. It essentially forces players to pay to play the game. Whatever is implemented has to be optional.
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Of course it's not going to be popular. That's obvious.
What measure that is going to cost people something is going to be popular though?
One way or the other, people seem to agree that dilithium spending needs to increase (on other things than buying Zen). That means that you have to accept that there will be a cost in dilithium terms.
The only alternative is that they add things that require a lot of dilithium to acquire them. Like vanity shields, which is either only a temporary solution or it will forever take away Dev time from other things because they need to be designed and implemented continuously to remain effective.
Cake: eat it or have it.
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Well it is rewarding if it means they can change the look of their ships.
And to be honest, I'm actually buying reroll tokens quite often. Surely I'm not the only one who's crazy enough to do this?