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It's time to remove the Loadout System

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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    I will be honest I have never had any of these issues with the load out system and i have been using it for years so i suspect i'm in the minority though a lot of my friends also use the system to very little issue it is very rare we have had issues with it the only issue I could possibly attribute to load out was a long time ago when playing missions where it gave you a ship to fly.

    Your not in the minority, not at all.

    When people use a game feature, and it works as intended, they simply use the feature and move on. When players attempt to use a feature and it doesn't work, that is when you see complaints. So of course, the majority of voices on forums about the Loadout system are about how it doesn't work, the users that are not having a problem are simply using the feature and nothing more needs to be said. Almost everyone I know in this game uses the loadout feature, and while none of us have a flawless experience, it mostly works as intended.

    Now, again.. that is not a dismissal of the issues listed.. not at all. The system has problems, some users have issues that make the system completely unusable. The system is not perfect, it does need attention, it does need fixing and the users complaining have valid issues and a right to be upset. What is not valid however, is automatically assuming you're the majority and asking for a feature that many other people use to be completely removed from the game. I understand that Cryptic has not done a good job of fixing the problems since the system has been introduced, but again, the fix for that is not removing the system completely and TRIBBLE over people that are using the system with minimal problem.

    A discussion on how to fix the issue is warranted, a call to action and the feeling that the developers have been negligent in this area are also valid. Assuming that your issue comprises the majority just because there are others also having issues and saying the system should be completely removed causing a blanket loss of features to all players.. well, that's selfish and short sided.
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    chastity1337chastity1337 Member Posts: 1,606 Arc User
    edited May 2022
    protoneous wrote: »
    Found this on one of my science ships. It won't even work properly without the starship trait Entwined Tactical Matrices... I'm unable to fire a torpedo spread. The two tactical bridge officer abilities I use (bfaw & csv) to get my spread and proc the morphogenic set just don't do the job lol. 2/3 pieces of the set were relocated into my inventory along with 19/20 reactive armor catalysts. Oh well.

    (image deleted for brevity)

    What you said about 19 of 20 reactive armor doodads. This happens all the time to me with batteries and the Deuterium Burn devices. I had a stack of 20 in the Device Slot, and when I come back 19 of them are in my inventory, and in the Device Slot there's one with an infinity symbol, (that little dealie like an 8 laying on its side), and the item has disappeared from my tray, so it's not accessible. It seems like somebody tried to change how it works, and quit in the middle of the job, leaving it unfinished.

    ***EDIT*** That biz about saving in space at Sol or Qu'nos may be something. I just now logged in my Hildegaard. She was at Sol, in space, has just saved to the first Loadout slot before I logged her out, and it looks good. Both stacks of 20 devices are in place, the Tray looks good, Traits are undisturbed. You may have something. Or it might be just a fluke, and the #*(^&** system is about to kick me in the nuts again...
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    protoneous wrote: »
    Found this on one of my science ships. It won't even work properly without the starship trait Entwined Tactical Matrices... I'm unable to fire a torpedo spread. The two tactical bridge officer abilities I use (bfaw & csv) to get my spread and proc the morphogenic set just don't do the job lol. 2/3 pieces of the set were relocated into my inventory along with 19/20 reactive armor catalysts. Oh well.

    (image deleted for brevity)

    What you said about 19 of 20 reactive armor doodads. This happens all the time to me with batteries and the Deuterium Burn devices. I had a stack of 20 in the Device Slot, and when I come back 19 of them are in my inventory, and in the Device Slot there's one with an infinity symbol, (that little dealie like an 8 laying on its side), and the item has disappeared from my tray, so it's not accessible. It seems like somebody tried to change how it works, and quit in the middle of the job, leaving it unfinished.

    ***EDIT*** That biz about saving in space at Sol or Qu'nos may be something. I just now logged in my Hildegaard. She was at Sol, in space, has just saved to the first Loadout slot before I logged her out, and it looks good. Both stacks of 20 devices are in place, the Tray looks good, Traits are undisturbed. You may have something. Or it might be just a fluke, and the #*(^&** system is about to kick me in the nuts again...

    For the consumables, it's a bit of a pain, but there is a fix. You want to delete all the extra consumables from your inventory as well as your personal bank. Set up your ship with your consumables slotted, but no other consumables of the same type in your inventory or your bank. If you save your loadout while you have no other consumables, you should be ok. Save in local space, zone to sector space, save there, and then re-enter zone space. You SHOULD then be able to carry extras in your inventory, but honesty, I stopped doing that. I just craft consumables as I need to refill them because the load out system has always been particularly terrible with consumables. If you have them on your ship and in your inventory/bank, for some reason, the system gets confused as to which ones to actually keep equipped.

    Consumables are by far my biggest issue with the loadout system, on many of my characters I just leave the device slots empty.. it's just easier. These have never worked right sadly.
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,612 Arc User
    edited May 2022
    A number of things happening make me suspect that the "partition issue" Kael mentioned may have resulted in having to rebuild some of the systems from backups, and at the very least it probably hit at least some of the databases.

    Yesterday I noticed the icon missing from the tray for the fungus gun (from the Revolutionary set) but when I tried to put it back it turned into evasive maneuvers in the tray no matter where I put it in the trays, and things like the sudden lag/rubberbanding and all the weird stuff with the stations page and whatnot point to it as well.

    The loadout system has always had a few problems, but from what I heard when I came back to the game in 2018 it was at least partially instituted to fix some serious problems that existed before it, and it was at least reasonably successful in doing that. It needs fixing, not ripping out.

    As for the fixes instead of content thing, it would not work since they are different teams so stopping content creation would do nothing more than idle the people involved in making it without speeding up bugfixing at all.
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    wolfswetpaws#2250 wolfswetpaws Member Posts: 25 Arc User
    The Loadout System has had issues since it was put into the game. Hey, here's a 2014 thread talking about how problematic it is.
    https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1165902/loadout-system-please-fix

    2014. It's 2022 and there's still issues that stem from this terrible system.

    It needs to get removed and it would actually greatly improve the quality of the game when that happens.



    I don't have a problem with the Loadout system existing as a concept.
    I have a problem when it is "buggy" and forgets things or attempts to retrieve things from another ship.

    To solve the "retrieve things from another ship" problem I did two things.
    ~One = change my "options" settings to prevent the game from automatically moving stuff from ship A when I purchase and ready ship B.
    ~Two = I made it a personal practice to save every ship & shuttle's loadout and to re-save that loadout when I make changes.

    That helped me, at least.

    I've only been playing a handful of weeks and still have plenty to learn.
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    doctorstegidoctorstegi Member Posts: 1,197 Arc User
    Still works like TRIBBLE. I spent over an hour to create a loadout just to find out the next day everything was back to before the new loadout. Since I saved it after I was done I figured go load it... hahahahaha nice try though. Yeah I don't see no point in having those anymore, its a joke.
    C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited May 2022
    Still works like TRIBBLE. I spent over an hour to create a loadout just to find out the next day everything was back to before the new loadout. Since I saved it after I was done I figured go load it... hahahahaha nice try though. Yeah I don't see no point in having those anymore, its a joke.

    Again, while your frustration is understandable and justified.. the point of having it is the fact that it works for some of us.

    Today's patch includes several fixes for the loadout system, I hope those resolve at least some of the issues people are having. I wish I could tell you why the system works perfectly fine for me (the occasional slight glitch aside) and is completely unusable for others.. I don't know. But I can assure you, that for some, the system does work.

    Hopefully, after todays patch, this stuff gets successfully fixed.
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    mirrorterranmirrorterran Member Posts: 423 Arc User
    The biggest problem I have with this so far is I am now FORCED to use a loadout when I never had to before. So every single stinkin time I move an item around on my ship or change something on my taskbar I have to go to a specific screen and tab and save? Unacceptable.
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    The biggest problem I have with this so far is I am now FORCED to use a loadout when I never had to before. So every single stinkin time I move an item around on my ship or change something on my taskbar I have to go to a specific screen and tab and save? Unacceptable.

    What exactly is forcing you to use a loadout? You are perfectly free to put things on your ship and just not save it as a loadout, not sure where the 'forcing' is coming into play.
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    The loadout system sucks and has never worked properly, but it's the only solution to the newest problems added to STO.

    It actually does work for some people and has for a long time.

    spielman1 wrote: »
    the system was never asked for but forced on us.

    Like most of what you post, that's simply not true. The loadout system was very frequently requested prior to it's implementation.
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    The loadout system sucks and has never worked properly, but it's the only solution to the newest problems added to STO.

    It actually does work for some people and has for a long time.

    spielman1 wrote: »
    the system was never asked for but forced on us.

    Like most of what you post, that's simply not true. The loadout system was very frequently requested prior to it's implementation.


    Here we go again! Another, NEW Delta Recruit I had made yesterday. I have not used the Loadout System yet here I am, punished with this bad, buggy system.

    I even made a bug report to make it official.
    https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1267073/captain-and-boff-equipment-removed-during-map-change#latest
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    warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited May 2022
    Loadouts never worked properly for me since they were first introduced... but removing the feature is not the way to go, imho.
    What should be done is to test it proprely - not by QAs with devs access, which is what they've been doing until now - and find where the problems are to then fix them.
    It's a quality of life asset that should not be done away with, but fixed so that it works properly.

    The system has been broken since Cryptic implemented it over 8 years ago. I have plenty of proof already presented in earlier posts how long it's been going on with different people.

    It's a problem going over 8 years and it hasn't been fixed.

    The devs have removed entire content from the game deemed problematic to them, yet the Failed Loadout System is still being a recurring, big problem in STO.

    Over eight years, man. That's how long this system has been a plague in STO. You don't even have to use the Loadout System for it to affect you. I have had 2 new Delta Recruits for this event and it's affected them both.
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    warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    This thing has been a nonstop problem for my Delta Recruit. More updates in my bug thread and it's only gotten worse.

    This system needs to go.
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    sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 5,551 Arc User
    > @warmaker001b said:
    > This thing has been a nonstop problem for my Delta Recruit. More updates in my bug thread and it's only gotten worse.
    >
    > This system needs to go.

    I could support a toggle in the in-game options menu to toggle the Loadout System on/off for those who use it and those who don't but outright removal? No! Just fix the eight year bug so it works consistently.

    Currently, I am being affected by the ground loadout bug where I put a ground weapon on in space, go to a TFO, and the ground weapon is removed and placed in my inventory. In its place my usual secondary weapon takes that spot. I have not been affected by the space loadout bug on the characters that I play.
    Where there is a Will, there is a Way.
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    warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited May 2022
    sthe91 wrote: »
    > @warmaker001b said:
    > This thing has been a nonstop problem for my Delta Recruit. More updates in my bug thread and it's only gotten worse.
    >
    > This system needs to go.

    I could support a toggle in the in-game options menu to toggle the Loadout System on/off for those who use it and those who don't but outright removal? No! Just fix the eight year bug so it works consistently.

    Currently, I am being affected by the ground loadout bug where I put a ground weapon on in space, go to a TFO, and the ground weapon is removed and placed in my inventory. In its place my usual secondary weapon takes that spot. I have not been affected by the space loadout bug on the characters that I play.

    Here's the problem. I am not even wanting to use the system, but the system is so problematic that it will bother you even if you don't want to use it at all.

    Think about what you said: 8 year bug. It's been a problem this long and there have been complaints about it going over as long.

    Check that bug thread of mine. I've been detailing every time it's happened. This is only a what? 2 day old character that has never used the Loadout System, yet it's unslotting my captain gear. The good thing in this character's case is that my ship's gear has not been affected. But the repeated unslotting of my gear has been aggravating.
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    warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited May 2022
    Awesome. It is now affecting my other new Delta Recruit's ground equipment. This system needs to go.
    Came across the same thing, this time on a different character. This character is also another new Delta Recruit from this event.
    Character name is S'aina@Warmaker01

    For a good long time in this Delta Recruit Event, I had her equipped like so:
    OjaMdhJ.jpeg
    But the gear of interest will be
    Harmonic Lure Kit Module in slot 1
    Terran Guerilla Combat Armor
    Cyclic Modulation Sniper Rifle
    Sompek Personal Shield

    I had equipped the full Kuumaarke Visionary Ground Set for a Operation Wolf TFO.
    The weapon took the place of the Cyclic Modulation Sniper Rifle.
    The Kuumarke Visionary Universal Kit took the place of the Harmonic Lure Kit Module.
    Same thing with the set's personal shield and armor.

    I complete Operation Wolf and begin work on the mission "Lost and Found." I beam aboard DS9 and I look in my inventory: The game unequipped the Visionary Set, including the set's kit module, and put back the equipment that I mentioned first.

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    theanothernametheanothername Member Posts: 1,504 Arc User
    I never had a problem with my loadouts :smile:

    Until the load out system was introduced :neutral:

    The constant auto-unslotting of batteries is only the tip of annoyance. Purge it with fire.
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    wraithshadow13wraithshadow13 Member Posts: 1,728 Arc User
    I've been hit this week or so with a weirdly specific thing. On my engineer, she has a single item removed from her slots and a power replaced with one I had earlier.


    I don't USE load-outs but this is such a weirdly specific thing.

    It happens on login and the occasional map transfer but it's ALWAYS those two things.
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    zaraszzarasz Member Posts: 186 Arc User
    strathkin wrote: »
    I've fine with it, it's not perfect perhaps; yet as long as you save your Ship Loadout in Space (Social Area) most of the time it works fine. Just the odd time it looses or changes a trait or two, or maybe forgets a tray icon the odd time but rarely.

    Granted if you start a new ship those always start empty, and the last Traits used in the previous loadout, often are used. Still you'll want to beam to Sol System, New Romulus, or Quonos and save and update Loadouts before continuing.

    Most of the time it generally works fine, provided you do as stated above.

    This is almost insulting. We shouldnt have to rely on workarounds, things should get fixed. How many players ingame are aware of these unreliable workarounds? For me it didnt matter where I save my loadouts. They resetted at random anyway anywhere. They still do.
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    rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,129 Community Moderator
    Workarounds don't solve the problem. They just mitigate. I have no doubt they're trying to track down the cause, but we have to consider we're talking lots of speggetti code, so trying to figure out which one is an issue can take time.

    Just because something isn't fixed five minutes ago doesn't mean they're not working on it.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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    crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,115 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Workarounds don't solve the problem. They just mitigate. I have no doubt they're trying to track down the cause, but we have to consider we're talking lots of speggetti code, so trying to figure out which one is an issue can take time.

    Just because something isn't fixed five minutes ago doesn't mean they're not working on it.

    This never should have made it into the production environment. As soon as it was found, the release code should have been rolled back to the previous version. The game is literally unplayable. Soon as you zone in for a mission or TFO, your gear is either totally switched out or removed. This bug and its handling is an embarrassment.

    The problem is: The Cryptic QA procedures SUCK. Jesse Heinig admitted on one of the last weekly livestreams that QA use special 'testing' accounts that have rights regular player accounts DON'T have - and if you've ever taken a programming/coding course the first thing they drill into y9ou about code testing is:

    Test in the exact same environment your end-users will be running the system on; and on an account that has all the settings and permissions your typical end user will have.
    ^^^
    If you deviate from the above in any way; overall your QA check may indeed miss something major and when something is reported by a end user; if you don't use an account set up like theirs you will probably NEVER see the bug they are reporting.

    Hell, just look at Tribble/Redshirt. If that's their 'near end user' testing environment; it's HARDLY close to the actual Live environment we players use. They LEAVE bugs and have many systems configured to respond differently (meaning the underlying codebase in those environments ISN'T equivalent -- so yeah, it's no wonder even after:

    'all hands on deck so (they) can get Storm Front launched in the best shape possible'

    Weeks later (as well as patch notes claiming certain issues are fixed, but when you then player go into the game you see they still exist) - It's STILL a major bug ridden mess NOT because the QA people didn't follow Cryptic QA procedures (they did) -- but the procedures and test environment ARE NOT good and not equivalent to what we the actual players play the game on. I'm sure management's thinking is:

    "These differences aren't large enough to affect the QA results and it aids QA in testing faster..."

    However, either they DON'T do or read any post mortem reports after a major software/content release; or the mid-level managers/supervisors are leaving MAJOR things out because they know they can get away with it, and they don't want upper management to make changes to improve their QA because it makes more work for them in the long run.


    That's the only takeaway possible from all this as this situation is nothing new when it comes to Cryptic and STO -- This type of QA situation has been going on for years -- and if anything is getting WORSE if the last few major content releases are anything to go by.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
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    zaraszzarasz Member Posts: 186 Arc User
    edited June 2022
    and that sir is a huge crux of the situation.
    if there is a workaround, why bother fixing anything?
    I know, right? Its those pesky reasonable expectations towards people who create a product that needs maintenance.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Workarounds don't solve the problem. They just mitigate. I have no doubt they're trying to track down the cause, but we have to consider we're talking lots of speggetti code, so trying to figure out which one is an issue can take time.

    Just because something isn't fixed five minutes ago doesn't mean they're not working on it.
    It took them a year to "fix" the bug that moves 19 of the 20 batteries back into the inventory on map changes only for it to end up being a problem for ground gear on random toons. And ground gear doesnt even have loadouts. They seem to have copied the bugged space system and made it invisible for ground gear. The bug just jumped from one system to another.

    Loadouts are bugged for over a year.

    Traits are bugged for I dont know how long.

    Hell, look at my post here. This forum is just pathetically designed. Ive seen better forums 20 years ago in eve online and older MMOs.

    They arent even communicating anything when it comes to bugs. But they nerfed the reputation rewards literally over night and announced the change one day ahead. ONE DAY! When I found an issue with the store I got a dev battering me with questions within the hour. This is their priority.

    Unless it prevents people from playing, and I mean severely preventing combat, undocking, using ships and gear, its not a priority. Have another lockbox ship for the minority, TRIBBLE the rest.

    Hate the company, love the game. It sucks.
    And then there are situations where we have no idea whether something is terrible by design or terrible by accident. See: Remain Klingon TFO. How much of the negativity surrounding this TFO is simply a product of bad design and what part is bugs?
    What bad design or possible bugs regarding that TFO are you refering to? Just curious because I actually enjoy that one and havent noticed anything that I would label bugged.
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