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Changes to Tier 5 Reputation Dilithium

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  • zaraszzarasz Member Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited March 31
    This is bad on so many levels. Corporate greed wins again. Dont pretend this is not a nerf for players who are smart enough to create new toons, grind the reputations to lvl 5 for the dilithium or for new players who might get the same idea. Useless dilithium that cant be converted into zen is the goal here.

    Its primarily going to hurt new players from now on. Nobody needs nearly half a million reputation dilithium. Hell, the whole idea of fleet and reputation only dilithium is stupid.

    Long time players who dont create new toons wont feel this change though. But there is now less motivation to create new toons and creating new toons with this change where we only purchase very specific items for a fraction of the pile will result in having this dilithium just sitting around.

    As for the lack of use of dil, thats not a problem either. We would like to spend dil on vanity shields but they have been available only three times I think. We convert it into zen but since the dilex is completely unbalanced and no solution in sight, you nerf the dilithium gain in the hopes it will solve the dilex problem. It wont. We would like to purchase reputation vanity shields but they are for marks only.

    And thats before we get into a discussion about the MUCH BIGGER PROBLEMS the players are facing like batteries being moved to the inventory at every map change if the loadout was saved in the wrong space zone or the disappearing traits at random or gamebreaking bugs in episodes... Literally everything else has a higher priority than this nerf to reputations.
    Consider the dilithium exchange much like a bathtub. In order to take a good bath you need the water to be at a certain level to submerse yourself but without overflowing the tub. In order to maintain that healthy level, there needs to be enough water coming in to fill the tub, but also enough drainage to maintain that level once it's reached. Too much drainage and there's not enough water, too little drainage and you flood the bathroom. Problem right now is that the drain is completely plugged up and the water has not only overflowed the tub, but has flooded the rest of the house at this point. Incoming water flow isn't the issue as there's more ways to get water into the tub. Problem is the drain is stopped up and not pulling excess water out.
    A supply & demand system cant be "plugged up". For that it requires a limit and currently there is none.
    What we actually have is a bathtub with too many people who want to take a bath and not enough water to fill the tub each time. And instead of helping players to get water you make it more difficult for players to get a bathtub.
    Now we will end up with a bathtub and two different types of water where we can only use one type to fill the tub and the other becomes mostly useless.
    That dilithium cap of 8k per toon per day is part of why it took so long for the exchange to get into the state it is now. If the cap were any higher it would've overflowed long ago. Also they don't want to lower the cap either because that would be a straight slap in the face to players.
    The cap only existed from day one to prevent people from converting the dilithium from lvl 5 reputations and the 50k from events (which got nerfed too) instantly into zen because it took 7-48 days to do that. A double grind that is now nerfed to the ground.

    We earned/grinded that dilithium. All we are asking for are reasonable ways to convert it into the currencies we need. After all you gave us those methods. Now that more and more players succeed at it, you nerf it instead of improving or fixing the system.

    All you had to do was introduce a limit to dilithium to zen conversion. Like only X amount of zen could be purchased through the exchange per account per month. This way new orders that exceed the limit could not be placed. A conversion cooldown if you will. This wouldnt hurt cryptics profits and it wouldnt hurt players because we could still gain a reasonable amount of zen each month. The exchange might even return to its state before the balance got broken like it is right now.

    Will any feedback even be considered or openly discussed, the nerf maybe reverted? Or will this be another "suck it up, players" change?
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,723 Arc User
    Don't get me wrong, but the problem is not that the market is flooded with dilithium, but that you can't buy anything useful for the dilithium.

    Zen is incredibly useful, which is why the market is flooded...too much dilithium and not enough zen
  • crossmrcrossmr Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    You know, adding more stuff to the game where we could spend the dill, THAT would be an awesome change no? Like someone mentioned in game chat, ad a Tab to the Dilithium Store and there ad ALL the Past Event Rewards, like Items, Devices, Boffs, Doffs, Ships and so on, make them Account Unlocks like they were Originaly and than let us buy that stuff with Dilithium, and BAM see how the Flooded Dill Market normalizes itself, THIS is something that would make sense, would be good for the Game AND make tons of people Happy who missed those past event Rewards, think about it.

    But how much would you reasonably charge for something like that in Dil? If we are talking about past event ships.. which are in mudd's market for a ridiculous price, how many people are going to want to save up like 20 million dil for 1 account ship. If you make it too cheap, farmers can clear all the event ships fast and if you make it too expensive most won't really save up for it.
  • thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot Member Posts: 4,364 Arc User
    edited March 31
    I dunno why I'm even bothering. I finished all the Reps on my remaining characters years ago so I don't have a dog in this fight.

    Making Dil earned from completing Tier 5 on Reps be used only on Reps is not a bad idea. But by itself the idea is short sighted. Unless the execution is correct, all you've accomplished is to run off players. I offer the following as suggestions.

    1. Make Reputation Store items purchaseable with Reputation Dilithium in addition to 'Normal' Dilithium.
    2. Allow players to choose between accepting the T5 Dil reward as either Reputation or Fleet Dilithium.
    3. Allow those who farm Reputation Marks to turn them in for either Reputation or Fleet Dilithium.
    4. Add cosmetic items to Mudd's Market which can only be purchased with Reputation Dilithium.

    These are things I thought of rather quickly. Other people around here are smarter than I am and may have some suggestions which are better.

    The things I'm certain of?
    1. No one who makes decisions at Cryptic will ever see this post. If they do, it will be laughed off.
    2. None of the above will be implemented because Cryptic suffers from a bad case of, "Not Invented Here."
    Nope. It ain't Discovery. It ain't Picard. It's not SNW, either.
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  • toadslayertoadslayer Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited March 31
    I have a lot of alts (41)and all are t6 rep or will soon be. So i have collected a lot of dilithium from t5 rep, instead of rep gear I have spent almost all of it on phoenix boxes for phoenix upgrades. The biggest downside to this change is it will hurt new players. The first thing I tell new players joining our fleet, and want to make their ship better, is to upgrade using phoenix upgrades. Phoenix upgrades are the single most efficient way to upgrade your ship. Yet it still costs almost a million dilithium to fully epic upgrade a ship using phoenix upgrades, (and that is during upgrade weekend). The t5 dil was a good way for new players to get a leg up on earning that first million dilithium. Grinding out that million dill for a new player is going to take a lot longer now, and i don't know how many will get discouraged at the grind.

    A simple fix would be to make phoenix boxes or even just phoenix upgrades purchasable using the Dil voucher. If the did this i would see no problem with the change.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,017 Arc User
    (Mark rewards from recruits only take you to around Tier 5, if you have all relevant Recruitment characters completed, so at Tier 6 you actually have to 'play' to get the needed marks)

    Not entirely - the T5 mark reward covers the majority of the needed amount to get to T6 without a rep mark boost - with a boost, it covers the entire climb.​​
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  • iamjmphiamjmph Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    And now I have absolutely no reason to grind out all of the reps. 3 or 4 max. Vanity shields aren't worth it, and while the fleet modules are nice, I can get by with just 4.
    Well, less time in the game for me I guess.
  • gypsybladegypsyblade Member Posts: 730 Arc User
    This will only hurt new players, my main character is 12 years old and his build hasn't changed in nearly 2 years. Reputation reward dilithium is not the reason the dilex has been out of control. Any veteran character is going to be flush with resources and in the last few years you've done little to encourage spending. I've mostly seen new players use the dilrep reward to get fleet credits so they can get stuff from fleet stores honestly. I cannot stress enough how this only hurts new players.
  • angelfrost1angelfrost1 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    The Dilithium Ore given as part of the mission rewards associated with reaching Tier 5 in any Reputation have been replaced with Reputation Dilithium Vouchers. This reward has always been intended to be used to purchase Reputation Equipment, which may still be done using these Vouchers, which also do not require Refinement before use.

    This change will take effect tomorrow on PC, and next Tuesday on Console.

    So what happens when I reach Tier 5 of a Reputation now?
    You will receive the same amount of dilithium as you had received in the past, but now in the form of Reputation Dilithium Vouchers. These vouchers can be spent to purchase Reputation Equipment.

    Can I use these Reputation Dilithium Vouchers on any Reputation?
    Yes. Vouchers unlocked from reaching Tier 5 on any Reputation can be used to purchase Reputation Equipment from any Reputation.

    Why is this change being made?
    As mentioned above, this Dilithium was always meant to be used to obtain Reputation Equipment. At the time, the designers believed players would use it exclusively for that, which may have been shortsighted. Switching this may have an effect on the Dilithium Economy. It's one of the many changes we're hoping to enact over the coming months.

    Can you tell us about any of the other changes?
    Not at this time. The other changes are either still in the testing phase or the design phase, and not yet ready for public consumption.

    This will affect those of us using these level ups towards getting zen. Reputation can always use all dilithium so this isn't necessary except to restrict players from qualifying for the zen exchange or other uses of the dilithium.
    I am firmly against this restriction.
  • awesomeweaselawesomeweasel Member Posts: 265 Arc User
    edited March 31
    i already have over 100K rep dilithium i have not used yet and will probably never use, why would you not give us the option to either take rep vouchers or fleet vouchers instead of forcing us to have more vouchers that will never be used? i personally used the dilithium i was getting from the reputation on my fleets once it was refined. or even better why not make it a universal voucher that can be used on rep gear, donate to the fleet or buy fleet gear?

    so now we are going to have 400K+ dilithium that will never be used, a great a reason to never do the reputation now.
  • parmeggidoparmeggido Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    My newest character is about 1/2 way through t4 reps, and already has ~100k unrefined dil. The only harm this change does her it that I'll be able to grab pretty much whatever equipment I want as soon as she hits t5. Wait, did I say harm? That doesn't quite sound right. In all seriousness, having 400k-500k of unrefined dilithium sitting on a character doesn't really do anything for a new player or a new character, unless that's all you want them for. Having ~400k immediately usable dilithium makes hitting t5 reputation level an almost immediate and significant power boost, instead of having to wait a couple weeks to have enough to get the equipment that matters for your build.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Member Posts: 357 Arc User
    Player 1: "The dilithium exchange is broken!!! Fix it nao!!!!

    Devs: "We are going to make this change to adjust how much and how fast actual dilithium can be gained by a player. This is the first of many changes we have planned to try and adjust the way the exchange is currently operating."

    Player 2: "This sucks. This won't fix anything! They need to do more!

    Player 3: "If I can't get 500 dilithium for my zen, and get instant gratification when I go to sell, then I won't even bother any more."


    What a thankless job.
    I mean, maybe this won't help anything, but they said it's only one of "many" things that they have planned.

    This at least slows down the amount of raw dilithium entering the game, and if someone works a lot of reputation projects it really won't be much of a change for them anyway.

    And if zen drops below the 500 dilithium max? That just means that dilithium has grown more valuable.
    Isn't that a good thing?

    Yes, more is needed, but they say that they have more planned. Is it not possible to wait and see what else is coming before condemning this effort?
  • aerojam#5421 aerojam Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    Totally disagree!

    All the players should be free to use their dilithium as they want, doesn't matter how did they get it.
  • xenex#5583 xenex Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    This makes me sad. This is going to hurt me as a player: firstly it's going to motivate me not to spend dilithium on fleet contributions. Secondly the dilithium rewards from the reputations is mainly what I use for Phoenix box items. I am not one of those players who horde mass amounts of dilithium, so for me this change is actually going to hurt me -- penalizing me. Instead I am finding myself agreeing with those who are asking for more uses to spend dilithium on, such as barbie items. I, for one, would like more vanity options. Another idea are vendors who unlock certain missions by trading them dilithium for access to those missions. I'm sure other options could have been found and acted upon instead of this change.
  • discojerdiscojer Member Posts: 533 Arc User
    I don't really care one way or the other, but if you really want to help the exchange, make more rep gear worth buying. Right now there's basically only one meta - two pieces from the Discovery set, comp engines

    The other thing is, make rep gear cheaper in terms of elite marks (and maybe marks). I never buy rep gear not because I don't have the dil, but because I don't have 15 or 20 elite marks to complete the set. It's a pain to get any of them besides terran/temporal
  • xixtisxixtis Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited March 31
    What a thankless job.

    The solution has always been obvious, and it keeps getting said over and over, but whoever is making decisions won't allow it. Dilithium needs to be more valuable than just a Zen conversion. God forbid someone with a ton of Dilithium to burn get to spend it on an event ship they may have missed that DOESN'T involve opening thousands of Phoenix boxes. Or how about Lobi consoles for Dil? Double or even triple fleet marks for dil? Why can't this be done?

    Oh, that's right, because that impacts the bottom line. "This was always intended" is such a line it's unbelievable. I don't thank people for lying to my face. Season 7 was far too damn long ago for that garbage to fly.
  • solidshark214solidshark214 Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    Concur with those pointing out this will result in tons of useless vouchers. I can see what this was intended to do, but it really should've been obvious it was going to go too far.

    And I must say, I'm skeptical about the claim that rep dil was "always" intended to be used for rep items. If that were the case, why wasn't this change made years ago? Reputation-only dilithium has been a thing at least since the Delta recruits, if I'm not mistaken, and those first came about something like seven years ago now.

    This is transparently an attempt to nerf the dilithium side of the dilex, without any thought given to its actual consequences.
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,309 Arc User
    This is a great change.

    Its obvious why so many are upset. Yes this was exploited heavily.
    I mean this doesn't really stop people from farming... I mean people are still going to claim their recruit boxes and click to T5, and between the reclaims and the 320 per rep daily they will refine 8k a day anyway. They just won't get that big 480k or whatever it is hitting T5 x 12 these days.

    Players can decide now they can click click click the doff and card games... or actually play content.

    I'm honestly surprised it took cryptic as long as it did to change this one.

    Of course we still need more to do with Dill. Game needs more gear that is worth upgrading ect. But putting an end to this new toon drain and kill stuff is also a good move. I hope this isn't the end of their attempts to stabilize the dill market.
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,309 Arc User
    parmeggido wrote: »
    My newest character is about 1/2 way through t4 reps, and already has ~100k unrefined dil. The only harm this change does her it that I'll be able to grab pretty much whatever equipment I want as soon as she hits t5. Wait, did I say harm? That doesn't quite sound right. In all seriousness, having 400k-500k of unrefined dilithium sitting on a character doesn't really do anything for a new player or a new character, unless that's all you want them for. Having ~400k immediately usable dilithium makes hitting t5 reputation level an almost immediate and significant power boost, instead of having to wait a couple weeks to have enough to get the equipment that matters for your build.

    Exactly... this is a great change for new players. Players that have one or two toons and not 30 or 40 with 10 slots for killable reroll toons. New players are going to hit T5 and be able to fully gear up their ships and ground setups with rep sets, and not have to farm for weeks or pay money. Heck they can even afford to shocking idea try out some out of meta sets cause why not they will have the Dill and marks to burn.

    Who won't like this people running multi toon slot slaughter houses.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 9,999 Arc User
    edited March 31
    This makes sense even though the farmers will hate it.

    If I wanted to I could get enough rep marks boxes from the Temporal/Delta/Dominion/Klingon recruit rewards to get any number of new alts to reputation tier 5 without actually playing the game, then get the 500K dil reward. Refine the dil, delete the alt, rinse and repeat.

    I have a real job so I have no interest in switching to dil farming but some people have more free time than spending money and so we have the dil exchange pegged at 500.

    I don't disagree that the game really needs more dil sinks too, but dil production from admiralty, event extra days, random TFOs, and the classics of contraband and reputations is out of control.

    All that said, I really like the idea raised earlier that Reputation Dil really aught to be usable in the reputation stores too.

    If you are putting together a Withering Disruptor build, you should be able to use this dil for any missing beams or cannons that you didn't get from the daily rep boxes. If you like the Pax and Bellium consoles the rep dil should work for them too.

    That might make rep store gear more popular, especially since the tier 5 rewards will not be subject to the 8K/day refinement limit. Rep dil is instantly usable.
  • kdftoonaltkdftoonalt Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited March 31
    Yet another way to take dilithium out as a way for those playing f2p from ever being able to try to get things that are either too expensive for real money or waiting for a sale. That approx 32K was always a huge help in being able to buy drydock or active ship slots since you never include these with the event ships you offer. If this was the way it was meant to be, what wasn't it done originally as you indicated. I don't know how long the system has been with us but I am sure 7 years is a very conservative guess. You redid the reputation system multiple times and just now decided you will change it to what you wanted.

    Oh how did the changes to Neverwinter workout so there was actual zen to get with your astral diamonds, I gave up on that game because of the exchange problem, that plus destroying the old campaigns.

    As another person said above, are you trying to drive players away. Why not allow the player at least the option of taking it as normal dil or take it as reputation dil and the adv of rep is that it can be used on any reputation project.

    However fair and balanced wasn't the goal here. I don't agree with yet another change like this. Even if it is hard to get zen for dil, I still would have liked you give a choice and not one that is obviously aimed at removing more items that could be used to buy with in game resources and making it get more and more impossible. F2P is now becoming F2PBE - Free to play basic edition. You already did in the Admiralty system by making them fleet or reputation vouchers for the 10 duties. So out of fairness you need to change anything in the advertising of this game of easily earning in game resources that you can then turn around and use to exchange for zen to buy things from the cash store (zen).

    Another what was this choice made quietly and quickly to prevent us from perhaps finishing up reputations and still get the dil at tier 5 as normal dil needing refining. Thanks for this wonderful fix which probably was more important than other fixes in the game. Perhaps instead of vouchers for reputation why don't you make a zen and dil version of the c-store. Make dil prices greater than 500 to 1 zen, maybe 650 to 1 zen and still allow people to buy without waiting for get your dil traded for zen.

    I also remember another project you were "fixing" up to be better. That system allowed people to get zen for doing various missions in many of your other games. Don't worry it is coming back. One follow-up message about the working status and then like a dead weight, you tossed it overboard and never talked about it again to avoid just saying it simply, too many people got free zen and didn't spend enough money in those other games to make this daily quest worth it. Every change lately has not been a change for good for the base but what is the good for the company and or Gearbox now. Are they any other dil we can get in game that will soon become vouchers, so we can use those up before they are gone as well.

    I am sorry this is harsh but I already figure this message will be deleted as it seems any message that shows great opposition vanishes now or one person gets to make changes to a persons message and then they comment and close the topic.

    How long have you been testing this change?

    Why are these changes not announced much further in advance. You gave us months (less 1 week before an event ended where it would have made sense) for win 10 and currently I don't see anything that has made this game better on win10. Ships that were destroyed reappear in the jupiter and 3 pylon TFO, as if they want to show you again they died in case you missed it. Why couldn't you wait till you were ready to start a new reputation addition like (just making up so this is not meant to be real for those who have problems) Alternate Omega Project (to deal with new borg)

    What things will we now have to use real dil not voucher dil for things like upgrades to almost any gear, to pay the newly inflated prices for rep items, buying weapons/gear from the reputation store (not the ones selected like a New Suit of Armor, Shield, Engines, Warp. I am talking about buying a particular weapon with certain stats. We also lose out of buying out of you pointless 14 of 21 day events that are just mostly repacking an old mission or tfo for repetition. I am going to have to look at all this is is going to ruin in the game and really have to cut back on any "real" refined dil vs "voucher stuck" dil for fleet or rep.
  • admiralq1732admiralq1732 Member Posts: 1,560 Arc User
    DO NOT DO THIS!

    I use that dil for zen grinding. Rep only is useless. and doign this on short notice without player feedback is really dumb.

    how about before you do anythign like this make an account and try it from our end for once in your life.
  • margus3margus3 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    edited March 31
    I think this dosent change anything what ppl get now haveto spend less dilithium for zen. If cryptic wants really fix issue remove exchange from game like it happend on any other mmo. Who really needs zen there is way to buy zen real way. Right now they see issue fleets buy dil too easyly to fill upgrades. You spend 10 buxx for 500k its redicilusly cheap.
    If i need dil i not grind it i just buy it. Fleet credits coversion is so easy currently to buy doffs. But if that move change something i start convert dil to zen if market gets empty value for dil to zen increase.

    But yea rep vouchers are allmost useless. So if have tons of vouchers no need to grind or buy dil for that. If its change anything.
    Post edited by margus3 on
  • coaldust#7044 coaldust Member Posts: 38 Arc User
    Rep only has limited use. Once you have the basic meta rep gear, there's no use for rep vouchers. I have some captains with thousands in rep vouchers that are functionally useless as nothing in the rep stores/projects are of benefit. i could however use the equivalent dilithium for other stuff

    Reverse this please
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  • jcswwjcsww Member Posts: 6,609 Arc User
    Personally, I don't think this will have the desired effect on the Dilithium market as 415,000 Dilithium per character for the entire Rep System being complete for Tier 5 isn't really a lot. What I think it will do though, is devalue the content that people play to grind out these less useful Rep Systems that have no worth while equipment worth getting, leaving more advanced and elite queues dead. I wish the team had been a lot more creative in their attempt at a solution for the excess Dilithium in the game, which by the way, they caused by adding Dilithium rewards to so much to make boring content slightly more attractive, at least to the heavy grinders.
  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 879 Arc User
    edited March 31
    > @jcsww said:
    > Personally, I don't think this will have the desired effect on the Dilithium market as 415,000 Dilithium per character for the entire Rep System being complete for Tier 5 isn't really a lot. What I think it will do though, is devalue the content that people play to grind out these less useful Rep Systems that have no worth while equipment worth getting, leaving more advanced and elite queues dead. I wish the team had been a lot more creative in their attempt at a solution for the excess Dilithium in the game, which by the way, they caused by adding Dilithium rewards to so much to make boring content slightly more attractive, at least to the heavy grinders.

    Well said. I agree that this decision is going to be unpopular, but it really is much ado about nothing. There is still a lot of dilithium in the rep grind. Making Admiralty and Reputation seem less rewarding is maybe good for the dilithium problem— but players would prefer more shinies in the Phoenix boxes.

    Moreover the exchange has been broken for almost a year now. Turning down the dilithium tap a little won’t change anything. And I can’t believe the developers would think it might.
  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 879 Arc User
    edited March 31
    In case anyone is interested Som’s Tenforward write up also talks about the logic behind the change:

    Jeremy believes that, in the long run, meaningful changes to the DilEx would have to come from both sources and sinks. Jeremy knows we need more sinks, and better sinks, and thats what Cryptic wants to focus on. Kael mentions there are sinks in the works, and Jeremy adds changes might as come as soon as in the next month.
    This change only affects the T5 rep rewards. All other rewards are being kept the same. Jeremy points out that originally they gave you dil ore you had to refine, the vouchers don't require refining, allowing you to use them quicker.
    Jeremy would have to look into any possible economic impact, but isn't opposed to letting you trade in these rep vouchers for fleet vouchers. Is also open to the idea of letting you spend these vouchers on things in the rep stores.
    Problem with the rep store idea is that Jeremy doesn't know of a way to allow us to do that cleanly. The messy way would be having to duplicate every item in every rep store, and change them to essentially use a different currency.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/tso5gl/ten_forward_weekly_33022_reputation_dil_changes/
  • live8evillive8evil Member Posts: 62 Arc User
    Lazy.
This discussion has been closed.