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another skills invalid? WTF?

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  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,245 Arc User
    What a good CM does is act as a communication barrier between players and devs so players know what is going on in the dev side and devs know what the players like or dislike or want so the devs can do their job.

    What a BAD CM does is stand there and spout verbatim what the devs say.

    What Kael does isn't even that. Or do that correctly.

    Seriously, the head QA guy had to come on the forum to do Kael's job...which is time out of doing his.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,062 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    I cannot blame Kael directly. Has anyone stopped to ask if the devs actually communicate with him the way they should? He can only communicate what he is told. And maybe they didn't know that there would be a third Skills Invalid issue. Maybe they thought they fixed it the last time, and the root of the cause goes deeper than expected.

    I don't know. None of us do. Not with absolute certainty.
    Even if that's true which I have trouble believing with how terrible a job Kael has done since he started the role. It is 100% Kael fault that he still has not bothered communicating in a decent way to the community after being told. He has known for a while now and still not bothered to do his job just like the last 2 times before this one. Where are the news posts, where is the landing splash screen which was designed for warnings like this, or the warning strip when logging in or the the ingame warning message to warn players which they don't seem to use anymore or any of the other methods that could be used like mail. I don't expect them to use every single one of those just 1 or 2 is enough. Major faults like this used to get communicated to players via in the game splash popup and that is Kaels responsibly.

    What was the point in implanting that horribly designed landing splash screen if not for things like this?

    What do we want Kael to say? Sorry... Dev X failed do do thing Y resulting in Issue Z? Or sorry, Dev x failed to own up to mistake Y resulting in issue Z? Because that is what is happening here. Someone keeps dropping the ball, and really, no statement or excuse Kael can post will fix it.

    And in my experience of two decades worth of following MMO development, the community manager has always been a company whipping boy. He's always been the buffr between community ire and developer ego. But because "manager" is part of their title the communities tend to assume they have some sort of power.

    We've got a dev team that doesn't care anymore. That's really all we need to know. What we as players need to decide is whether or not we're going to keep engaging in what is clearly a futile hope that anything is actually going to change? In my judgment, Cryptic has failed. They get no money from me.
    What I want is for him to do his job and send out a proper message to the community. I am not expecting him to fix it. At the bare minimum as part of his job he should edit the patch notes with an amendment in the known bug section about the bug and put out a message to warn us about the bug that we have invalid skills and need to do a respec. Something like this should be a twitter and facebook post as well. Not as the main source twitter and Facebook should be secondary additionals.

    This type of major bug should be in the player warning splash screen message when we log in. Its fair enough if someone didn't tell him. But why hasn't he bothered to tell the players after he found out. There are multiple mechanics in game for him to send out messages to all players.

    In short there should be an official message about the bug and an official message about doing a repec to fix it and that we have been given a free repec at the bare minimum. If you really have two decadres of expreince following MMO and commuinity mangers you would know just about eveyr other MMO would have an in game message to all players about there skills being invlaid and they need to do a free respec.

    Its not the doing a respec that bothers me. Its what feels like a complete lack of care or information from the community manager. That and the lack of basic QA or proof reading and even after being informed not bothering to fix misleading text even when it involves spending money. Mistakes happen but they shouldn't happen on the scale that they are happening.

    EDIT: Just to give one of many possible examples. The Legendary Mirror Bundle came out 2 months ago. The blog is still full of errors, the ZEN store text is still full of errors and the errors are different in each. Even though it involves money and is effectively false advertising they are not bothering to do anything about it. I don't remember the precise numbers but the errors from the community manager are running at something like 50% of posts are incorrect and that's when he even bothers to post.

    Well put sir, and agreed on everything!

    As for player spending.. look, I am not one to tell anyone how to spend their money. You earned it, the only one qualified to tell you how to spend it is you. But for me personally, I cannot in good concience contribute any money toward this game the way it's currently being run. This complete lack of news and communication tells me that Cryptic does not have any respect for the player base and in turn I will not support them.

    Perhaps you feel differently? Well, that's cool.. I have no right to tell anyone what to do. But you can absolutely bet that my entertainment dollars will be going elsewhere while this studio continues it's disrespectful and inconsiderate treatment of it's loyal supporters.
    animated.gif
    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Funny enough, they talked about the skill invalid issue yesterday on the Ten Forward weekly steam


    Jesse Heining mentions its something that resulted not only from them changing loadouts to include traits, which touches the skill system, but also from them fixing bugs related to some of the skills, and some of the traits, which causes the skill system to go think your skills are no longer valid. Mostly its them fixing bugs in skill/trait coding.

    Kael also mentions that, as the CM, he should have been involved in those conversations, but wasn't, as they weren't conversations the team had, they were just Devs fixing bugs, which is why he didn't inform anyone(he literally didn't know). He also mentions that the devs were likewise caught off guard by the skill retrains themselves, and apologizes for the hassle its caused.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,403 Arc User
    Funny enough, they talked about the skill invalid issue yesterday on the Ten Forward weekly steam


    Jesse Heining mentions its something that resulted not only from them changing loadouts to include traits, which touches the skill system, but also from them fixing bugs related to some of the skills, and some of the traits, which causes the skill system to go think your skills are no longer valid. Mostly its them fixing bugs in skill/trait coding.

    Kael also mentions that, as the CM, he should have been involved in those conversations, but wasn't, as they weren't conversations the team had, they were just Devs fixing bugs, which is why he didn't inform anyone(he literally didn't know). He also mentions that the devs were likewise caught off guard by the skill retrains themselves, and apologizes for the hassle its caused.
    That's not good enough as it only explains why the communication was missing from day 1. That is not reasonable explanation of why he didn't tell us the first 2 times after he found out nor does it explain why after he found out this time he still hasn't bothered to put proper decent communication out. So there is a valid reason for the delay in communication so what's his reason for not bothering to use communication channels now he has found out? He has had more then enough time now.

    Surly even you don't think one minor off hand comment in a livestream is reasonable for something as major as this? This is a major bug that is player wide after all. Any other decent MMO would have an ingame warning message when you log in.
  • mainamaina Member Posts: 428 Arc User
    Funny enough, they talked about the skill invalid issue yesterday on the Ten Forward weekly steam


    Jesse Heining mentions its something that resulted not only from them changing loadouts to include traits, which touches the skill system, but also from them fixing bugs related to some of the skills, and some of the traits, which causes the skill system to go think your skills are no longer valid. Mostly its them fixing bugs in skill/trait coding.

    Kael also mentions that, as the CM, he should have been involved in those conversations, but wasn't, as they weren't conversations the team had, they were just Devs fixing bugs, which is why he didn't inform anyone(he literally didn't know). He also mentions that the devs were likewise caught off guard by the skill retrains themselves, and apologizes for the hassle its caused.

    Funny enough, the players still don't know to respec, but hey, not his fault, he's sorry, he can sit back proud that his job is done. The rest of the players can continue to wonder why the game they just started playing, plays like Tribble. Too bad if they see that their traits are unslotted, they won't see a notice that the skills are invalid, too bad people are yelling in frustration that their load outs are acting weird, but that doesn't show the skills invalid either.....

    He missed the main part again, communicating with the player base.

    Som, I'm not shooting the messenger, my post was not aimed at you. o:)


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  • bubblegirl2015bubblegirl2015 Member Posts: 799 Arc User
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,403 Arc User
    At last a step in the right direction.
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 1,957 Arc User
    > @somtaawkhar said:
    > Funny enough, they talked about the skill invalid issue yesterday on the Ten Forward weekly steam
    >
    >
    > Jesse Heining mentions its something that resulted not only from them changing loadouts to include traits, which touches the skill system, but also from them fixing bugs related to some of the skills, and some of the traits, which causes the skill system to go think your skills are no longer valid. Mostly its them fixing bugs in skill/trait coding.
    >
    > Kael also mentions that, as the CM, he should have been involved in those conversations, but wasn't, as they weren't conversations the team had, they were just Devs fixing bugs, which is why he didn't inform anyone(he literally didn't know). He also mentions that the devs were likewise caught off guard by the skill retrains themselves, and apologizes for the hassle its caused.
    >

    Not funny. What's funny is the outpouring of sympathy and support for people who are paid to make things work.
    As others have stated, if this were my job, at the bare minimum, had I not addressed it and owned up to it, I'd be seeing the door. And many others have expressed the same.
    The other notion that NO ONE has come in here to tell us.
    So no...not funny, and please stop making it sound like they are gods to be worshipped.
    Do the damn job they are paid to do. Period.
    If there is a bug, more so since they knew about it, address it. Don't flake, dont be ID10Ts and man up about it.
    meh

  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 1,957 Arc User
    > @bubblegirl2015 said:
    > Finally...
    >
    >

    Wtf? Really on twitter? Where is the official forums post?
    meh

  • fred26291#2759 fred26291 Member Posts: 920 Arc User
    I for one consider anything posted to twitter and not here on the official forums , rumor / heresay and not official till its posted to the forums news page!
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 4,529 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Funny enough, they talked about the skill invalid issue yesterday on the Ten Forward weekly steam

    There is actually nothing "funny" about it at this point.

    Whatever the causes may be, they simply need to make sure it doesn't happen anymore. That's really all there is to it.

    And while apologies are nice from a PR standpoint, please just fix the problem.

    He said "steps have been taken to avoid this in the future". If that's actually true, then "great". If not, then people should definitely continue to call out unacceptable development behavior.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • doctorstegidoctorstegi Member Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Funny enough, they talked about the skill invalid issue yesterday on the Ten Forward weekly steam


    Jesse Heining mentions its something that resulted not only from them changing loadouts to include traits, which touches the skill system, but also from them fixing bugs related to some of the skills, and some of the traits, which causes the skill system to go think your skills are no longer valid. Mostly its them fixing bugs in skill/trait coding.

    Kael also mentions that, as the CM, he should have been involved in those conversations, but wasn't, as they weren't conversations the team had, they were just Devs fixing bugs, which is why he didn't inform anyone(he literally didn't know). He also mentions that the devs were likewise caught off guard by the skill retrains themselves, and apologizes for the hassle its caused.

    You are delusional beyond help. Like the regular guy watches this stream. That's why they have 10 of thousands of viewers when they stream right? ...

    C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
  • shadowkoshshadowkosh Member Posts: 1,560 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    What a good CM does is act as a communication barrier between players and devs so players know what is going on in the dev side and devs know what the players like or dislike or want so the devs can do their job.

    What a BAD CM does is stand there and spout verbatim what the devs say.

    What Kael does isn't even that. Or do that correctly.

    Seriously, the head QA guy had to come on the forum to do Kael's job...which is time out of doing his.

    Where did the QA guy come on here and post something can’t find it
  • doctorstegidoctorstegi Member Posts: 694 Arc User
    > @bubblegirl2015 said:
    > Finally...
    >
    >

    Wtf? Really on twitter? Where is the official forums post?

    Sorry I wait with my respecs a few more patches....

    C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,245 Arc User
    > @bubblegirl2015 said:
    > Finally...
    >
    >

    Considering it's not on the forum or launch pad...no, not finally. Keal has STILL NOT DONE HIS BLOODY JOB.
  • grifithrkvgrifithrkv Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    "Steps have taken to avoid this in the future", give 0 security in retrain my skills. I dont will retrain the skills of my chars to log and discover another invalidate skills after one patch.
  • snowwolf#0563 snowwolf Member Posts: 1,014 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Considering it's not on the forum or launch pad+++

    Yeah, for someone like me without any social media. It's very hard having to go search on Reddit and Twitter.. Two platforms I don't use, instead of being informed via the official forums or the game launcher.

    Maybe they should get some kind of forum bot, something like Discord has? That copies the Twitter status into the news section on the forum or something?

  • shadowfirefly00shadowfirefly00 Member Posts: 1,006 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Considering it's not on the forum or launch pad...no, not finally. Keal has STILL NOT DONE HIS BLOODY JOB.
    I've said this before, but it seems to yet again bear repetition: social media postings are meant to supplement and direct players to, not substitute for, official forum threads. Here, it could be a thread whose initial post can be modified to clarify the nature of the issue, and what is being done to address it, as the devs are able to nail down and relay to the CM.
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 1,957 Arc User
    Maybe all of us on the ancient social media platform, "The Official Forums," are just out of touch...

    /endsarcasm
    meh

  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 318 Arc User
    It is a poorly-worded message with a run-on sentence—very Kael.

    How can we expect proper tweets, or forum posts, or even patch notes when the company is filled with functional illiterates?

    It is no wonder they consider the forum toxic. I doubt they have the reading comprehension to even understand the nature of our complaints...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,062 Arc User
    If they are going to do all the announcements of this type via Twitter, then the launcher should have a link to that feed.

    There is still no way for any player that doesn't regularly check social media to know their skills are currently invalid. The bulk of the player base is flying around with this error and has no idea.

    At the very least it should be on the "official forum." Maybe then when something like this happens, they put a red banner on the launcher like they do with maintenance announcements.. something like "Player Skills are currently invalid.. please Check Official Forums for information."

    They could also use the in game announce system.

    Or you know.. just throw it out on twitter and forget about it.

    And Kael mentioning it on Twitch a few days after the fact might be enough for certain people.. not for me.

    Not good enough.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • captainkoltarcaptainkoltar Member Posts: 676 Arc User
    There are at least two Cryptic owned ways of disseminating this information. The forums, or the news section of the site. These are what should be being used, not Twitter.
  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 863 Arc User
    @seaofsorrows made a good point about the launcher. They could use it for way more than what they do now.

    Them not even having the guts of opening a simple thread here - one that could also be closed immediately after the first post, if they don't feel like engaging with the community, though they ignore it entirely anyway so they could do the same in this instance - is just the cherry on top of an extremely hard to swallow cake.
    kv1Ohsx.png
    Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.

    Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
    - quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;

    Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
    Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
  • captainhunter1captainhunter1 Member Posts: 1,554 Arc User
    Funny enough, they talked about the skill invalid issue yesterday on the Ten Forward weekly steam

    There is actually nothing "funny" about it at this point.

    Whatever the causes may be, they simply need to make sure it doesn't happen anymore. That's really all there is to it.

    Don't worry, they are.

    Expect skills to go the way of the Foundry and Calendar sometime soon....

    PROBLEM SOLVED! (From a PWE perspective).
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,338 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    Pardon me for asking... But didn't they "take steps" to avoid the invalid skill issue last time? And the time before that?

    Pardon me also for not believing a word of this.

    Two steps forward... four steps back... Those are the steps I see.
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,245 Arc User

    Pardon me for asking... But didn't they "take steps" to avoid the invalid skill issue last time? And the time before that?

    Pardon me also for not believing a word of this.

    Two steps forward... four steps back... Those are the steps I see.

    There were steps forward?!?
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,338 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »

    Pardon me for asking... But didn't they "take steps" to avoid the invalid skill issue last time? And the time before that?

    Pardon me also for not believing a word of this.

    Two steps forward... four steps back... Those are the steps I see.

    There were steps forward?!?

    They always take steps forward, and then take twice as many backward, so they never can get ahead. If thery read this and don't like my perception of their effectiveness, then they need to actually do something to change that perception. There is no excusing this mess. First time, okay. second time, they're pushing it. Third time, unacceptable. They need to get this thing fixed.

    It's getting to the point where they break the game every time they patch it. They used to break the foundry every time they patched the game. Foundry went away. Their incompetence is really showing through. What are they going to do, remove the game because it has become too hard to fix and maintain? I told you that excuse was stupid when they used it for Foundry's removal. And for the calendar's removal. Now they can't even fix and maintain the core game.

    There is no excusing them at this point.
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • kurtronkurtron Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    What are they going to do, remove the game because it has become too hard to fix and maintain?

    Between the lack of communication to the player base, and the way they've keep breaking content, while releasing grossly overpriced digital items, all signs point to yes, the moment the game stops making its profit margins, it'll be gone. Likely sooner than later.
    I ain't meaning to sound all DOOM here, it's just a very definite impression Cryptic is leaving.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,403 Arc User
    Starting to wonder if the current devs have forgotten or are unware about the in game player messaging options. The old devs used to use it for major bugs like this. Not seen it used once with the current batch of devs.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    Surly even you don't think one minor off hand comment in a livestream is reasonable for something as major as this? This is a major bug that is player wide after all. Any other decent MMO would have an ingame warning message when you log in.
    If anything, I'm more surprised we got even this.

    I've seen plenty of game companies do even less in regards to major issues because its become common industry practice to not even bother with PR over things like this since gamers are known to be too toxic, intolerant, and generally unwilling to listen, to make it worthwhile. Guild Wars 2, one of the larger MMOs out there, doesn't even have someone as a dedicated community manager because they don't find it worth the time to even try with how rabid their fanbase is over ANYTHING they find issue with.

    I expect no communication from any game company, beyond the stock release of new trailers for upcoming content, because years of interacting with game forums has proven people don't deserve it.
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