This screencap shows two sides of the RSE behind Picard's head
That isn't a screencap. Its an edited image of a fan made map used in some fictional campaign universe edited behind Picard's head. Hence the silly stuff like the Elorg Bloc to the left of Picard's head which isn't a thing in Trek canon. Not to mention the obvious pixel distortion around Picard's body from the photoshop.
If you can't even do basic research(though thats been obvious for awhile) there really is no point in this conversation since you really just don't know what you are talking about.
As for the Dominion, they never actually give it a size in DS9. However, considering the time constraints with the Section 31 plague the founder's world is not months away and travelled off-camera, it has to be a reasonable distance from the Gamma end of the wormhole to reach in a few days or a week or so at the very most.
Picard mentioned that the Federation is 8,000 LY wide, and in DS9 its mentioned it takes like 3 weeks to get from one side of the Federation to the other. So like over 2,600 LY a week, puts the First dominion homeworld less then two weeks of the wormhole based on the 5,100 LY figure from the Star Charts.
OK, so maybe it isn't a screencap, it is sometimes hard to tell without having a way of checking the episodes when needed (I was under the impression that the map PIC did show was not that particular one, but second-guessed myself when I saw that picture, and time was rather short). The PIC series does show essentially the same map on a wall however, that fan made modification or whatever it is just added some thing and slightly changed things like the coverage level (it is 'zoomed out' to show a wider area) and artwork style while leaving the majority intact.
As for my research abilities, time is usually a bigger factor than skill since I do have things outside of this forum to do and have to fit my research for the comments around that. Often I have to post things when I am tired or not quite awake yet and I can get a little sloppy then.
Your math works out for traversing the Federation along an axis that is 8,000 ly if you are in a ship travelling at warp 9.99975, so that is definitely not something they would have been doing while exploring for the past 300 years, and it is even a rather unlikely speed for Defiant to do unless they were somehow using slipstream or transwarp for part of it (though a Prometheus or Intrepid class might be able to do it with enough engine work) or had a Traveller pushing the envelope.
In fact, Defiant is massively slower than an Intrepid, with a top speed of 9.5 instead of the Intrepid's rated top speed of 9.975 (remember the curve is stupidly steep that close to warp 10) and it would take the Defiant about six and a half months to reach the world the Great Link is on if the Dominion capital is really 5,100 ly from the wormhole.
As for the Lukari/Kentari, while from a great distance overview their situation is the same as the Vulcan/Romulan one, that is almost the level at which there are only 36 stories that can be told. Get closer and they are not very much alike.
Wrong. Lukari. They made them up and every new mission they show up in, a little more depth is added. Where are you getting this weird idea you can't add breadth and depth?
Except the Kentari/Lukari have no depth. They are just Romulans and Vulcan 2.0, except the Vulcans lost and got exiled instead. We know all of nothing about their culture beyond their one trick pony protomatter tech, just like any of the one episode aliens from Star Trek with no depth to them.
Now there's no depth if isn't deep enough to your satisfaction. Not an argument.
No, STO is not at all consistent with Trek canon on the Iconians. We go back in time and see the Iconians are not the conquring demons of air and darkness, they only became that after they were destroyed.
Which is, as I stated, exactly what Picard speculated to be true. So, again, yes it is. Did you even read what I wrote there?
No I didn't read the entire thing, obviously. Arguing with you is incredibly tiresome. But you're right and I'm wrong on this.
However, my original point was that we have no information on the Iconians outside of that. We don't know what they looked like, who their enemies were, or why they actually attacked them. Cryptic made that up, and went on that line of pure speculation from Picard.
If something is banned, how do you study it?
It wasn't banned. The Romulans just hate it. What are you even going on about now? What.... did you think the synth ban applied outside of the Federation? Like, seriously. Now your not even making sense.
Again, the ZV are happy to infiltrate Starfleet and destroy a planet because of robots. Why do you think they would let AI happen in the RSE?
Why are you coming up with absurdity to try and counter argue?
I could ask the same about you. None of your arguments make a lick of sense, or follow even basic logic. You also get basic plot points about Picard wrong... so I'm not sure if you watched the show or not, or are just reading basic summaries on Wikipedia.
Here is what Memory Alpha has to say on the matter. I was wrong, it wasn't episode 1 it was episode 2.
The housekeepers, former Tal Shiar operatives, explain to Picard that the Zhat Vash is known as a myth for scaremongering, but is actually an organization established thousands of years ago to keep secrets. Laris reveals that as a recruit, one of her first handlers had told her the Zhat Vash holds a deep loathing and fear of artificial lifeforms. (Zhaban interjects that his father had gotten the handler, his mother, drunk on Romulan ale at the time.) Laris justifies the existence of the Zhat Vash, pointing to the absence of androids, artificial intelligence, and studies on cybernetics in Romulan culture. Romulan computers are limited purely to numerical functions.
The ZV were an extension of the RSE government.
The Zhat Vash are a secretive organization that has existed before modern Romulan government did. They are the Section 31 of the Romulans, not some official approved extension of the RSE Government like say Starfleet Intelligence is. Not to mention the RSE no longer exists following Hobus.
Of course the RSE still exists. That's absurd. That's like saying if California falls into the Pacific, the USA no longer exists. And if the ZV aren't part of the RSE, then where do they get the fleet? Where do they get their power? Do you think the RSE would tolerate a secret entity it has no control over that randomly kills their AI scientists or planets?
Little Timmy doing basic AI experiments in the shuttle garage
And here is where your complete absurdity starts. No one was ever suggesting that little Timmy was allowed to do AI experiments in the RSE. There is difference between "professional" "government" scientists studying it to learn how to combat it, and just letting kids do it at home. What a horrible straw man.
You did exactly that. You suggested that normal Romulans aren't ZV, so there would be nothing stopping random people studying it, except the ZV of course. And why would the government study AI if the ZV are doing what they can to fight AI? You are setting up a conflict between the ZV and RSE. Who wins? Yet we know for a fact the ZV can command an insane fleet, so its absurd to suggest they don't have serious power in the RSE. The RSE isn't about to permit rogue fleets that show up to burn planets where they set up robot mining operations.
Except the Kentari/Lukari have no depth. They are just Romulans and Vulcan 2.0, except the Vulcans lost and got exiled instead. We know all of nothing about their culture beyond their one trick pony protomatter tech, just like any of the one episode aliens from Star Trek with no depth to them.
Actually Cardassians were Romulans 2.0, the Obsidian Order were an obvious Tal Shiar clone and their backstabbing nature were also copied from the Romulans the only difference was that the Cardassians had a big emphasis on family and their enslavement of the Bajorans, however they still managed to add depth to these knock offs to make them feel unique enough to be their own species mostly due to Garek's influence.
Of course the RSE still exists. That's absurd. That's like saying if California falls into the Pacific, the USA no longer exists. And if the ZV aren't part of the RSE, then where do they get the fleet? Where do they get their power? Do you think the RSE would tolerate a secret entity it has no control over that randomly kills their AI scientists or planets?
This right here confirms everything I suspected. You literally didn't watch the show, and have no idea what you are talking about.
At no point in Picard do they mention the Romulan Star Empire, only the Romulan Free State. Which was mentioned as one of several Romulan successor states. Michael Chabon even confirmed this on one of his Instagram Q&As. The RSE collapsed following the supernova, and now there are just a bunch of various Romulan states each claiming to be the real Romulan government.
The Romualn Free State is the largest and most powerful of these warring factions, due to its backing by the Tal Shiar(not the Zhat Vash) but even they have brought the Tal Shiar more under heel(hence the Free State's willingness to work with the Federation on the Artifact project, and Hugh's ability to tell off Tal Shiar operatives on the Artifact with no reprisals.)
Also the fleet at the end wasn't a Zhat Vash fleet, it was the Tal Shiar's fleet. They even specifically say its a Tal Shiar fleet in the show. The Tal Shiar was part of the Romulan Star Empire's government, and is working with the Romulan Free State. The Zhat Vash was a secret organization controlling the Tal Shiar from the shadows.
Your math works out for traversing the Federation along an axis that is 8,000 ly if you are in a ship travelling at warp 9.99975, so that is definitely not something they would have been doing while exploring for the past 300 years, and it is even a rather unlikely speed for Defiant to do unless they were somehow using slipstream or transwarp for part of it (though a Prometheus or Intrepid class might be able to do it with enough engine work) or had a Traveller pushing the envelope.
This argument would have merit if Star Trek had ever been consistent with warp speed, but it wasn't.
In the TNG episode "Q Who" Data mentions that it would take two years at the Galaxy class's max speed(Warp 9.6) to cross the 7,000 LY from the J-25 system, where they encountered the Borg, back to the nearest Federation starbase. by this same logic, it would have only taken Voyager 21.4 years to get back to Earth, not the 75 years they originally speculated, if they traveled at warp 9.6. However, Voyager can go up to warp 9.975, which means the time take should have been much less. If you take into account all the boosts they got from Kes, Quantum Slipstream, and the Transwarp coil, and the fact they used the Borg's transwarp network to cut from the edge of the DQ back to Earth, Voyager should have gotten back in like late S1.
OFC that is contradicted by First Contact, which states the Federation covers over 8,000LY, which would be impossible to maintain if it took over 2 years to get from one side to the other. Which is backed up by DS9 which states it takes like 2-3 weeks to get from one side of the Federation to the other. Meaning warp speeds are much faster.
And by that math Voyager should have been able to get home in like 37.5 weeks had they had no boost, and traveled every single LY from where they started back to Earth, which makes the 75 year journey even more stupidly unbelievable. But Voyager has always somehow been the slowest hero ship(even slower then the warp 5 NX in ENT) despite also being the fastest of the hero ships, able to go warp 9.975. In reality, they should have only been stuck in the DQ for a few months, at most.
Star Trek has never been consistent with how fast warp speeds actually are, and all charts claiming to project how fast warp speeds are, are themselves just fanon made charts that could be contradicted by any number of episodes.
Q was right, it would have taken 2.37 years for Enterprise-D to cover that distance in normal unstressed space. And the official formula is official and published. I would have to know more about the circumstances of the 8000 ly Federation territory, it is nothing like a sphere so the distances from one part of the border to one straight across can vary by a large amount depending on exactly were you take the measurements.
As for Voyager and the 75 year estimate, either it was calculated for an average speed of 7.94 new (TNG and beyond) scale which is at least somewhat reasonable if allowing for fuel and maintenance problems, or someone used the wrong formula since travelling that distance in the old (TOS) scale warp 9.95 actually does take 75 years.
And no, the warp charts are not just things made up by the fans, as I said at the start of this comment the oldstyle and newstyle warp factor formulas are official, and usually the fans who made charts just plug numbers into the appropriate one and put the results in the charts.
As for communications rapid enough to control a far flung interstellar civilization, Star Trek established that subspace communications are much faster than ships, especially with the use of subspace relays. Whatever those relays use for a backhaul must be practically instantaneous for some of the two-way audio-visual communication they show in the various series to be possible.
And the official formula is official and published.
There is no official warp formula. By CBS's own rules on what is canon, only things directly presented directly in the TV shows and movies, as well as some "word of god" comments are canon.
Warp speed equations appeared in various technical manuals, and the "Star Trek is..." proposal, but none of those ever appeared on screen, and thus, aren't canon. The only time any sort of warp scale ever appeared on screen was in ENT, and that only covered warp 1-5. But ENT contradicted itself multiple times switching between a more TOS scale, and a more TNG scale. So even the scale we see is directly contradicted in later episodes.
So no, your completely and utterly wrong, again, about some basic information.
No, what you said is irrelevant since whether they appeared in dialog or not the studios (except maybe for Kurtzman's bunch) actually used them and they were published and acknowledged as official back in the Paramount days, and the TV division used those formulas in figuring time and distance in the shows (though they made occasional errors).
The movie division was always a lot looser when it came to compatibility with anything outside of the particular movie so they may have ignored it though.
No, what you said is irrelevant since whether they appeared in dialog or not the studios (except maybe for Kurtzman's bunch) actually used them and they were published and acknowledged as official back in the Paramount days, and the TV division used those formulas in figuring time and distance in the shows (though they made occasional errors).
The movie division was always a lot looser when it came to compatibility with anything outside of the particular movie so they may have ignored it though.
At no point were they ever considered official. Just like at no point was the Constitution being 289 meters, or the refit being 305 meters, ever official.
And even if they were, we have on screen evidence in every show that contradicts them, making them non-canon by default. Not to mention CBS's word on the matter which is the ultimate word on any subject Trek related.
Believe what you want about the warp factor formulas, I am well aware that nothing anyone says can sway your opinion in the slightest.
About the TOS Enterprise length, well, at least you are half right this time, the TOS Enterprise was never 289 meters (which is a little over 948 feet) long though that is about as close as an integer number of meters can get to the length of 947 feet that Jefferies specified. And since I already gave proof of that (which you ignored as usual) in other threads and I am pressed for time today I wont bother to repeat it in this particular comment.
it's very simple for STO to get away from anything CBS does with Picard and Disco. a small task force goes through an iconian get to another galaxy (i would skip andromeda) and after a base has been established, a whole new galaxy is open for the plyaer to explore, and all new species to combat. 1, you get back to small scale conflicts, cause you don't HAVE 10,000 starships at your back anymore, so you will have to build alliances and use diplomacy more.. that is IF cryptic wants to go that direction.
The dimensions of the Constitution-class, 947 feet (289 meters) long for the original configuration and 1,000 feet (305 meters) for the refit-configuration, are the ones that are universally accepted by production staff and fans alike, and propagated in virtually all reference works dealing with the subject, starting with the very first one, The Making of Star Trek, published in 1968. That being said and oddly enough, neither dimension has actually ever been canonically confirmed, as neither dimension was ever seen or referred to in any of the live-action Star Trek productions until 2019.
I can and did provide proof of the size in another thread, you just did not accept it so that is your problem, not mine.
Also I was being a bit facetious about you being half-right (which is why I stated it was the closest metric figure), while technically the ship was designed in feet and the 947 feet figure is the exact one, the 289 meter one is indeed the accepted approximate metric equivalent in round numbers and just as valid. I probably should have put sarcasm tags on the statement.
And hey, if you want to get really literal to a silly degree it turns out the big shooting model's saucer is not exactly perfectly round at the rim and if it was rounded out to the it is side to side it would actually make the ship slightly longer, maybe even up to a foot, anyway though that is a flaw of the model construction and the plans were still drawn and scaled that the fictional full sized ship would be the 947' length).
Of course the RSE still exists. That's absurd. That's like saying if California falls into the Pacific, the USA no longer exists. And if the ZV aren't part of the RSE, then where do they get the fleet? Where do they get their power? Do you think the RSE would tolerate a secret entity it has no control over that randomly kills their AI scientists or planets?
This right here confirms everything I suspected. You literally didn't watch the show, and have no idea what you are talking about.
At no point in Picard do they mention the Romulan Star Empire, only the Romulan Free State. Which was mentioned as one of several Romulan successor states. Michael Chabon even confirmed this on one of his Instagram Q&As. The RSE collapsed following the supernova, and now there are just a bunch of various Romulan states each claiming to be the real Romulan government.
The Romualn Free State is the largest and most powerful of these warring factions, due to its backing by the Tal Shiar(not the Zhat Vash) but even they have brought the Tal Shiar more under heel(hence the Free State's willingness to work with the Federation on the Artifact project, and Hugh's ability to tell off Tal Shiar operatives on the Artifact with no reprisals.)
Also the fleet at the end wasn't a Zhat Vash fleet, it was the Tal Shiar's fleet. They even specifically say its a Tal Shiar fleet in the show. The Tal Shiar was part of the Romulan Star Empire's government, and is working with the Romulan Free State. The Zhat Vash was a secret organization controlling the Tal Shiar from the shadows that not even most people in the Tal Shiar, let alone the actual Romulan government, believed existed.
You seem to ignore the fact that a rose by any other name is still a rose. They can rename it whatever they want, but its still got the Tal Shiar in it, its still secretive, deceptive, and authoritarian. It is still the RSE.
Okay, boys, it's time to stop arguing about whose is bigger.
And the "warp equations" are all strictly fanfic - in every series, the ship traveled, in the wise words of J. Michael Straczynski, "at the speed of plot". It took long enough to make the story interesting, but not so long as to be too late - unless being too late was the point of the plot. It's one of the reasons why TNG and later used very few identifiable star labels; knowing how far away something was and how long it took the ship to make the trip would tie down exactly what they could do in the future. (It also avoids the error in "The Apple", which posits a Class-M world orbiting Gamma Trianguli, an A-type blue-white supergiant with such a fast rotational speed that no detectable planets have formed in its debris ring.)
The problem here, Phoenix, is that you keep citing Jeffries and the tech manuals as if those were "alpha" content. They're not. Anything that hasn't been on screen is guesswork at best, even if it comes from one of the set designers. None of the Trek series have ever concerned themselves excessively with scientific accuracy, particularly when it might bog down the plot. Hell, internal consistency can be, and has been, tossed in the name of the story. (If Qo'noS was one week away at warp 5, including time for side trips to a trading outpost and a Suliban installation, kindly explain why the Klingons never discovered Earth or any of its colonies. They're aggressively expansionistic, it's built into their culture - they conquer others or they wind up killing themselves in internecine wars, as seen in ST6 and DSC.)
Fox, your argument is the sort that one might encounter in a first-year college philosophy course, crammed with the sort of youth who hold that The Andy Griffith Show is fascist propaganda because its main character is a small-town sheriff and ACAB. Are you then personally responsible for every terrible thing your country has ever done? (And without knowing what country that is, I can still rest assured that someone there has done horrible things, probably in the fairly recent past or even right now. We're on Earth, after all.)
...
Fox, your argument is the sort that one might encounter in a first-year college philosophy course, crammed with the sort of youth who hold that The Andy Griffith Show is fascist propaganda because its main character is a small-town sheriff and ACAB. Are you then personally responsible for every terrible thing your country has ever done? (And without knowing what country that is, I can still rest assured that someone there has done horrible things, probably in the fairly recent past or even right now. We're on Earth, after all.)
I'm not sure what you're even referring to here. I can only assume its based on my last post, but yours makes no sense in relation to that. The morality is completely irrelevant. As I saw it, all ST:P did was try to change the name to make the RSE more sympathetic, when in fact it was just an Orwellian rebranding like the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea."
> @foxrockssocks said: > (Quote) > > You seem to ignore the fact that a rose by any other name is still a rose. They can rename it whatever they want, but its still got the Tal Shiar in it, its still secretive, deceptive, and authoritarian. It is still the RSE.
The RSE doesn't exist anymore. The ZV are an extension of the former Tal Shiar. I've read the exchanges between you and @somtaawkhar and quite honestly, I don't understand the logic you're using to explain what you believe to be true.
The ZV have a hatred (or overwhelming concern) of artificial life. That doesn't mean the entirety of Romulan society (militaristic and civilian alike) do. There's a fair chance that the bulk of Romulan society don't even know what the ZV are all about.
The Romulans destroyed an entire planet in another empire because it had simple robots on it and you think they allow AI in their own empire? The Zhat Vash did, not all Romulans. Next you will be saying "well Section 31 tried to use a virus to kill all the Founders, so obviously the Federation would do something similar on its worlds!" There are lines in ST:P directly pointing out the lack of AI in Romulan society. The show went on to explain why, because of the ZV and their psychotic vision which causes them to murder robots (despite directly contradicting every episode of TNG where Data was involved with Roms in some way, who was far more advanced than the later Mars robots, as well as Voyager when 2 holodocs were not remotely alarming to the Romulans who were trying to capture the Prometheus, rather than destroy it. No, ST:P made it clear the Romulans did not allow AI tech and they would destroy stupid robots, glass an entire planet on the chance they could become sentient someday, maybe. Would they do it to their own planets? Why wouldn't they? They know the risk of AI. And actually if S31 thought a Federation world was a risk to the entire Federation, yes they probably would destroy it with a virus or something else.
When you put it that way The Zhat Vash are no different than the Tzenkethi, who glassed entire worlds to prevent the Hur'q.
> @foxrockssocks said:
> (Quote)
>
> You seem to ignore the fact that a rose by any other name is still a rose. They can rename it whatever they want, but its still got the Tal Shiar in it, its still secretive, deceptive, and authoritarian. It is still the RSE.
The RSE doesn't exist anymore. The ZV are an extension of the former Tal Shiar. I've read the exchanges between you and @somtaawkhar and quite honestly, I don't understand the logic you're using to explain what you believe to be true.
The ZV have a hatred (or overwhelming concern) of artificial life. That doesn't mean the entirety of Romulan society (militaristic and civilian alike) do. There's a fair chance that the bulk of Romulan society don't even know what the ZV are all about.
I am saying the RSE exists because if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, squawks like a duck, its a duck. I don't recall any important differences that would warrant making a distinction. Feel free to prove me wrong on that. I don't have a great memory of everything ST:P because I didn't enjoy it, but on this part, I remember thinking they are going to tell us how the RFS and RSE are different but they never did, so I see no reason not to keep referring to it as the RSE. Regardless, its a minor pointless issue to argue about.
Now with respect to AI and Romulan society, while I agree that normal Rommies may have no issue with AI, the problem is that ST:P outright told us that Rom society has no AI at all, and that is evidence ZV and their crusade have significant power over normal Roms. This is what one of Picard's housekeepers tell us, and that was what I quoted off of Memory Alpha since I'm not going to go look for a clip of that scene on youtube.
"The Zhat Vash and the RSE are the same thing!" is roughly the equivalent of saying "QAn*n and the US are the same thing!" (You know, if the Q-folks actually had a small fleet of their own, and their leader really existed...)
The existence of a small cabal of crazed fanatics within a society does not imply that said cabal runs that society.
"The Zhat Vash and the RSE are the same thing!" is roughly the equivalent of saying "QAn*n and the US are the same thing!" (You know, if the Q-folks actually had a small fleet of their own, and their leader really existed...)
The existence of a small cabal of crazed fanatics within a society does not imply that said cabal runs that society.
When the reach into the greater Romulan society is so powerful that it entirely lacks AI because of the will of the ZV, yes, its entirely reasonable to see them as an integral part of the Rom government. They obviously aren't making decisions on mail delivery or tax collection or whatever, but they get everything they want, so who is in control?
@foxrockssocks unless I am mistaken, one of Picard's vineyard friends specifically stated that the ZV were an isolated group with the Tal Shiar.
I suppose it's comparable to the CIA; an organisation within the US, but unlike the CIA and the FBI (who answer to US officials), the ZV never answered to the Tal Shiar.
They're not the same organisation though. That much seems abundantly clear to me.
> @foxrockssocks said:
> (Quote)
>
> You seem to ignore the fact that a rose by any other name is still a rose. They can rename it whatever they want, but its still got the Tal Shiar in it, its still secretive, deceptive, and authoritarian. It is still the RSE.
The RSE doesn't exist anymore. The ZV are an extension of the former Tal Shiar. I've read the exchanges between you and @somtaawkhar and quite honestly, I don't understand the logic you're using to explain what you believe to be true.
The ZV have a hatred (or overwhelming concern) of artificial life. That doesn't mean the entirety of Romulan society (militaristic and civilian alike) do. There's a fair chance that the bulk of Romulan society don't even know what the ZV are all about.
I am saying the RSE exists because if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, squawks like a duck, its a duck. I don't recall any important differences that would warrant making a distinction. Feel free to prove me wrong on that. I don't have a great memory of everything ST:P because I didn't enjoy it, but on this part, I remember thinking they are going to tell us how the RFS and RSE are different but they never did, so I see no reason not to keep referring to it as the RSE. Regardless, its a minor pointless issue to argue about.
Now with respect to AI and Romulan society, while I agree that normal Rommies may have no issue with AI, the problem is that ST:P outright told us that Rom society has no AI at all, and that is evidence ZV and their crusade have significant power over normal Roms. This is what one of Picard's housekeepers tell us, and that was what I quoted off of Memory Alpha since I'm not going to go look for a clip of that scene on youtube.
Amazing how they could have computers and romulan cyberneticists yet have no ai at all? But when his Kurtzman ever cared about the integrity of star trek
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
"The Zhat Vash and the RSE are the same thing!" is roughly the equivalent of saying "QAn*n and the US are the same thing!" (You know, if the Q-folks actually had a small fleet of their own, and their leader really existed...)
The existence of a small cabal of crazed fanatics within a society does not imply that said cabal runs that society.
When the reach into the greater Romulan society is so powerful that it entirely lacks AI because of the will of the ZV...
@foxrockssocks unless I am mistaken, one of Picard's vineyard friends specifically stated that the ZV were an isolated group with the Tal Shiar.
I suppose it's comparable to the CIA; an organisation within the US, but unlike the CIA and the FBI (who answer to US officials), the ZV never answered to the Tal Shiar.
They're not the same organisation though. That much seems abundantly clear to me.
"The Zhat Vash and the RSE are the same thing!" is roughly the equivalent of saying "QAn*n and the US are the same thing!" (You know, if the Q-folks actually had a small fleet of their own, and their leader really existed...)
The existence of a small cabal of crazed fanatics within a society does not imply that said cabal runs that society.
When the reach into the greater Romulan society is so powerful that it entirely lacks AI because of the will of the ZV...
[citation needed]
Flash I might agree, if not for what we are told about the ZV and their power. Because their influence has removed/prevented all AI of any kind from Romulan society, they must have total support of the government for their agenda, which means they are effectively in control, at least in that area. I'm not interested in the nitty gritty, only the effect of their influence and the implication of it. Whether they are official, secret, or whatever, they get everything they want, whether its attacking a foreign power and wiping out a planet, or domestic policy that totally prevents AI.
And again, Jon, from Memory Alpha, the entry on "Maps and Legends" second paragraph under Act One:
The housekeepers, former Tal Shiar operatives, explain to Picard that the Zhat Vash is known as a myth for scaremongering, but is actually an organization established thousands of years ago to keep secrets. Laris reveals that as a recruit, one of her first handlers had told her the Zhat Vash holds a deep loathing and fear of artificial lifeforms. (Zhaban interjects that his father had gotten the handler, his mother, drunk on Romulan ale at the time.) Laris justifies the existence of the Zhat Vash, pointing to the absence of androids, artificial intelligence, and studies on cybernetics in Romulan culture. Romulan computers are limited purely to numerical functions.
Comments
OK, so maybe it isn't a screencap, it is sometimes hard to tell without having a way of checking the episodes when needed (I was under the impression that the map PIC did show was not that particular one, but second-guessed myself when I saw that picture, and time was rather short). The PIC series does show essentially the same map on a wall however, that fan made modification or whatever it is just added some thing and slightly changed things like the coverage level (it is 'zoomed out' to show a wider area) and artwork style while leaving the majority intact.
As for my research abilities, time is usually a bigger factor than skill since I do have things outside of this forum to do and have to fit my research for the comments around that. Often I have to post things when I am tired or not quite awake yet and I can get a little sloppy then.
Your math works out for traversing the Federation along an axis that is 8,000 ly if you are in a ship travelling at warp 9.99975, so that is definitely not something they would have been doing while exploring for the past 300 years, and it is even a rather unlikely speed for Defiant to do unless they were somehow using slipstream or transwarp for part of it (though a Prometheus or Intrepid class might be able to do it with enough engine work) or had a Traveller pushing the envelope.
In fact, Defiant is massively slower than an Intrepid, with a top speed of 9.5 instead of the Intrepid's rated top speed of 9.975 (remember the curve is stupidly steep that close to warp 10) and it would take the Defiant about six and a half months to reach the world the Great Link is on if the Dominion capital is really 5,100 ly from the wormhole.
As for the Lukari/Kentari, while from a great distance overview their situation is the same as the Vulcan/Romulan one, that is almost the level at which there are only 36 stories that can be told. Get closer and they are not very much alike.
Now there's no depth if isn't deep enough to your satisfaction. Not an argument.
No I didn't read the entire thing, obviously. Arguing with you is incredibly tiresome. But you're right and I'm wrong on this.
However, my original point was that we have no information on the Iconians outside of that. We don't know what they looked like, who their enemies were, or why they actually attacked them. Cryptic made that up, and went on that line of pure speculation from Picard.
Again, the ZV are happy to infiltrate Starfleet and destroy a planet because of robots. Why do you think they would let AI happen in the RSE?
Here is what Memory Alpha has to say on the matter. I was wrong, it wasn't episode 1 it was episode 2.
Of course the RSE still exists. That's absurd. That's like saying if California falls into the Pacific, the USA no longer exists. And if the ZV aren't part of the RSE, then where do they get the fleet? Where do they get their power? Do you think the RSE would tolerate a secret entity it has no control over that randomly kills their AI scientists or planets?
You did exactly that. You suggested that normal Romulans aren't ZV, so there would be nothing stopping random people studying it, except the ZV of course. And why would the government study AI if the ZV are doing what they can to fight AI? You are setting up a conflict between the ZV and RSE. Who wins? Yet we know for a fact the ZV can command an insane fleet, so its absurd to suggest they don't have serious power in the RSE. The RSE isn't about to permit rogue fleets that show up to burn planets where they set up robot mining operations.
Actually Cardassians were Romulans 2.0, the Obsidian Order were an obvious Tal Shiar clone and their backstabbing nature were also copied from the Romulans the only difference was that the Cardassians had a big emphasis on family and their enslavement of the Bajorans, however they still managed to add depth to these knock offs to make them feel unique enough to be their own species mostly due to Garek's influence.
Q was right, it would have taken 2.37 years for Enterprise-D to cover that distance in normal unstressed space. And the official formula is official and published. I would have to know more about the circumstances of the 8000 ly Federation territory, it is nothing like a sphere so the distances from one part of the border to one straight across can vary by a large amount depending on exactly were you take the measurements.
As for Voyager and the 75 year estimate, either it was calculated for an average speed of 7.94 new (TNG and beyond) scale which is at least somewhat reasonable if allowing for fuel and maintenance problems, or someone used the wrong formula since travelling that distance in the old (TOS) scale warp 9.95 actually does take 75 years.
And no, the warp charts are not just things made up by the fans, as I said at the start of this comment the oldstyle and newstyle warp factor formulas are official, and usually the fans who made charts just plug numbers into the appropriate one and put the results in the charts.
As for communications rapid enough to control a far flung interstellar civilization, Star Trek established that subspace communications are much faster than ships, especially with the use of subspace relays. Whatever those relays use for a backhaul must be practically instantaneous for some of the two-way audio-visual communication they show in the various series to be possible.
No, what you said is irrelevant since whether they appeared in dialog or not the studios (except maybe for Kurtzman's bunch) actually used them and they were published and acknowledged as official back in the Paramount days, and the TV division used those formulas in figuring time and distance in the shows (though they made occasional errors).
The movie division was always a lot looser when it came to compatibility with anything outside of the particular movie so they may have ignored it though.
Believe what you want about the warp factor formulas, I am well aware that nothing anyone says can sway your opinion in the slightest.
About the TOS Enterprise length, well, at least you are half right this time, the TOS Enterprise was never 289 meters (which is a little over 948 feet) long though that is about as close as an integer number of meters can get to the length of 947 feet that Jefferies specified. And since I already gave proof of that (which you ignored as usual) in other threads and I am pressed for time today I wont bother to repeat it in this particular comment.
I can and did provide proof of the size in another thread, you just did not accept it so that is your problem, not mine.
Also I was being a bit facetious about you being half-right (which is why I stated it was the closest metric figure), while technically the ship was designed in feet and the 947 feet figure is the exact one, the 289 meter one is indeed the accepted approximate metric equivalent in round numbers and just as valid. I probably should have put sarcasm tags on the statement.
And hey, if you want to get really literal to a silly degree it turns out the big shooting model's saucer is not exactly perfectly round at the rim and if it was rounded out to the it is side to side it would actually make the ship slightly longer, maybe even up to a foot, anyway though that is a flaw of the model construction and the plans were still drawn and scaled that the fictional full sized ship would be the 947' length).
CM
You seem to ignore the fact that a rose by any other name is still a rose. They can rename it whatever they want, but its still got the Tal Shiar in it, its still secretive, deceptive, and authoritarian. It is still the RSE.
And the "warp equations" are all strictly fanfic - in every series, the ship traveled, in the wise words of J. Michael Straczynski, "at the speed of plot". It took long enough to make the story interesting, but not so long as to be too late - unless being too late was the point of the plot. It's one of the reasons why TNG and later used very few identifiable star labels; knowing how far away something was and how long it took the ship to make the trip would tie down exactly what they could do in the future. (It also avoids the error in "The Apple", which posits a Class-M world orbiting Gamma Trianguli, an A-type blue-white supergiant with such a fast rotational speed that no detectable planets have formed in its debris ring.)
The problem here, Phoenix, is that you keep citing Jeffries and the tech manuals as if those were "alpha" content. They're not. Anything that hasn't been on screen is guesswork at best, even if it comes from one of the set designers. None of the Trek series have ever concerned themselves excessively with scientific accuracy, particularly when it might bog down the plot. Hell, internal consistency can be, and has been, tossed in the name of the story. (If Qo'noS was one week away at warp 5, including time for side trips to a trading outpost and a Suliban installation, kindly explain why the Klingons never discovered Earth or any of its colonies. They're aggressively expansionistic, it's built into their culture - they conquer others or they wind up killing themselves in internecine wars, as seen in ST6 and DSC.)
Fox, your argument is the sort that one might encounter in a first-year college philosophy course, crammed with the sort of youth who hold that The Andy Griffith Show is fascist propaganda because its main character is a small-town sheriff and ACAB. Are you then personally responsible for every terrible thing your country has ever done? (And without knowing what country that is, I can still rest assured that someone there has done horrible things, probably in the fairly recent past or even right now. We're on Earth, after all.)
I'm not sure what you're even referring to here. I can only assume its based on my last post, but yours makes no sense in relation to that. The morality is completely irrelevant. As I saw it, all ST:P did was try to change the name to make the RSE more sympathetic, when in fact it was just an Orwellian rebranding like the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea."
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> You seem to ignore the fact that a rose by any other name is still a rose. They can rename it whatever they want, but its still got the Tal Shiar in it, its still secretive, deceptive, and authoritarian. It is still the RSE.
The RSE doesn't exist anymore. The ZV are an extension of the former Tal Shiar. I've read the exchanges between you and @somtaawkhar and quite honestly, I don't understand the logic you're using to explain what you believe to be true.
The ZV have a hatred (or overwhelming concern) of artificial life. That doesn't mean the entirety of Romulan society (militaristic and civilian alike) do. There's a fair chance that the bulk of Romulan society don't even know what the ZV are all about.
None of the Legendary Ships are behind a Gambling wall.
When you put it that way The Zhat Vash are no different than the Tzenkethi, who glassed entire worlds to prevent the Hur'q.
I am saying the RSE exists because if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, squawks like a duck, its a duck. I don't recall any important differences that would warrant making a distinction. Feel free to prove me wrong on that. I don't have a great memory of everything ST:P because I didn't enjoy it, but on this part, I remember thinking they are going to tell us how the RFS and RSE are different but they never did, so I see no reason not to keep referring to it as the RSE. Regardless, its a minor pointless issue to argue about.
Now with respect to AI and Romulan society, while I agree that normal Rommies may have no issue with AI, the problem is that ST:P outright told us that Rom society has no AI at all, and that is evidence ZV and their crusade have significant power over normal Roms. This is what one of Picard's housekeepers tell us, and that was what I quoted off of Memory Alpha since I'm not going to go look for a clip of that scene on youtube.
You have tempted fate in 20freaking20!
The existence of a small cabal of crazed fanatics within a society does not imply that said cabal runs that society.
When the reach into the greater Romulan society is so powerful that it entirely lacks AI because of the will of the ZV, yes, its entirely reasonable to see them as an integral part of the Rom government. They obviously aren't making decisions on mail delivery or tax collection or whatever, but they get everything they want, so who is in control?
I suppose it's comparable to the CIA; an organisation within the US, but unlike the CIA and the FBI (who answer to US officials), the ZV never answered to the Tal Shiar.
They're not the same organisation though. That much seems abundantly clear to me.
Amazing how they could have computers and romulan cyberneticists yet have no ai at all? But when his Kurtzman ever cared about the integrity of star trek
Flash I might agree, if not for what we are told about the ZV and their power. Because their influence has removed/prevented all AI of any kind from Romulan society, they must have total support of the government for their agenda, which means they are effectively in control, at least in that area. I'm not interested in the nitty gritty, only the effect of their influence and the implication of it. Whether they are official, secret, or whatever, they get everything they want, whether its attacking a foreign power and wiping out a planet, or domestic policy that totally prevents AI.
And again, Jon, from Memory Alpha, the entry on "Maps and Legends" second paragraph under Act One:
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Maps_and_Legends_(episode)