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Noticed a funny lil contradiction in the TOS tutorial.
ericcoldfire
Member Posts: 41 Arc User
After finishing the Age of Discovery simulation story missions, I went back and replayed some of the TOS missions for a palate cleanser and a line of dialog made me giggle a little.
So in the Age of Discovery mission, the KlingOrcs are apparently technical super computer geniuses who can create a super computer virus that can cripple a Starfleet ship as well as be implanted in Klingon DNA to be transferred into a prison's computer system when the prisoners get a medical scan. Hyper advanced stuff for ten years prior to The Cage, right?
Cut to the TOS mission I Sing Of Arms, where Tarsi grabs a Klingon officer's data pad, and remarks how poorly Klingons are with computers and that her little sister's diary was harder to hack into than a Klingon military PADD.
It got a chuckle out of me.
So in the Age of Discovery mission, the KlingOrcs are apparently technical super computer geniuses who can create a super computer virus that can cripple a Starfleet ship as well as be implanted in Klingon DNA to be transferred into a prison's computer system when the prisoners get a medical scan. Hyper advanced stuff for ten years prior to The Cage, right?
Cut to the TOS mission I Sing Of Arms, where Tarsi grabs a Klingon officer's data pad, and remarks how poorly Klingons are with computers and that her little sister's diary was harder to hack into than a Klingon military PADD.
It got a chuckle out of me.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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And odds are its only certain, really smart Klingons, like Aakar, who can pull that off. On the other hand Tarsi might also be rather good with computers herself, or the average Klingon Officer at that time had more training in tactical systems and less in actual Computer Security.
Either that or TOS era Klingon security measures on PADDs was lacking because no one expects an enemy to be able to live long enough to get their hands on one.
DSC has all the earmarks of a 40s musical connect-the-dots writing style. Only in DSC it is the SFX sight gags they plan first instead of musical numbers like the old musicals did, then try to connect the SFX eyecandy together with a shallow plot (hopefully in a way that seems not-too uncoherent). Unfortunately, they only partially succeed (at best) with that.
There is also the problem that apparently none of the people writing DSC for CBS are TOS fans so they simply don't know a lot of the lore specific to TOS, and just looking it up does not give the nuances the bare facts only touch on. Plus of course, in order to fully understand it is necessary to know something about the zeitgeist the show was produced in besides stereotypical "hippy" myths.
Hell, it takes no imagination to notice that chief O’Brien is probably better at computer details than some counsellor Troi is.
What contradiction is supposed to be manufactured here? There is none to find.
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l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Yeah, a race that builds space ships and maintains a multi-system empire can't possibly be inteligent.....
That was not serious. The answers above explain it: different houses, random mook not an elite secret ops specialist, no expectation that a fed would be able to take the PADD from him.
They did have the surgically altered Klingon spy in The Original Series (the shorthand is now filtered!?) so they weren't the Honorable Barbarian Warriors of TNG.
of course, that's judging according to HUMAN concepts of honor, not alien
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Well only problem with that thinking is that there were people who were both shinobi and samurai, the Bushido is an invention of the Edo period and didn't really exist during the sengoku period as a universal code.
I'd say that a better of looking at this is that most Klingon warriors would see things electronic security as "nerd stuff" and not something a proper warrior needs to worry about, while House Mo'kai being a more focused on the covert side of war have warriors more trained on things other then boasting and bat'leth fighting.
Essentially most Klingon warriors aren't dumb because they lack the ability to be smarter but rather most Klingons feel like skills that don't directly relate to being a warrior are waste of their time and thus don't learn them, with House like Mo'kai being the exceptions.
To my knowledge no. And odds are the previous DSC era cloaks were compromised thanks to the data Discovery gathered in her showdown with the Sarco. Why bother using a stealth system your enemy has cracked? Klingons wouldn't use Cloak Tech again until ST3 with Kruge's BoP. However, if that's still considered canon, Klingons traded D7s for Cloak Tech with the Romulans.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Exactly!
Everyone forgets that klingons reverse engineered their warp drive from that of their enemies. They did this 1000 klingon years ago, which klingon years are longer than human years. So they became spacefaring and began building a galactic Empire while humans were just barely starting to explore the Atlantic, circa 1400s.
They also reverse engineered their cloak from parts of a Romulan one.
They also discovered the means by which to counter the Breen weapons radiation in the Dominion War, that helped turn the tide of battle.
But as others would say, "They're just dumb space orcs."
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Accidental or not, it shows they were on the right track and would have discovered it any how.
Besides, how many accidental discovers have humans made, that are called discoveries and not accidental?
That is one of the areas where actual canon does not match up with the simple version of the canon statement. It really does not require things to be explicitly stated in dialog to be canon, it just requires that the item or incident in question be in an in-house live-action or animated production rather than a third party novel, tech manual, or whatever.
In the case of the tech exchange, it was a canon point as far as the production team was concerned (they actually referred to it in a few memos) and any further Romulan stories would have been done with it in mind (it would have also probably been mentioned in passing from the Klingon point of view in the fourth season with the Enterprise/Gr'oth rivalry focus it was to have). They did not use the D7 model because of a lack of funds to rebuild the BoP, they used it because it fit the cold war analogy for the Klingons to be selling equipment to the Federation's enemies similar to the way the USSR sold equipment to countries and movements hostile to the US and other NATO countries.
In fact, the exchange was key to the entire episode even though they didn't beat the viewers over the head with technobabble to explicitly point it out the way they would have in the Berman Treks.
They made a big deal in "Balance of Terror" about how Romulan technology was quite alien to the Federation (and by implication Klingon) tech due to their choices on which branches to research, and that cut both ways. Until the Romulans started talking to the Klingons and got examples of sensor and warp technology that was more like that of the Federation the Romulans simply didn't know for sure how the Enterprise tracked the BoP earlier, and the tech exchange shed enough light on the problem that they were able to make an improved version of the cloak that did not have the "movement" flaw of the earlier one. Federation intelligence got wind of the improved, undetectable, cloak and that is why they sent Enterprise in to steal one to examine.
Another point that is often missed in "The Enterprise Incident" is that the Klingons apparently didn't pass along the information about how to block transporters with shield settings, since the Enterprise crew had no problem beaming into and out of the Romulan flagship while it had its shields up.
Actually, the crew of that Klingon ship seemed clueless as to why everyone else was loosing power while they were fine. It was scans from the Defiant that discovered that the tritium intermix adjustment (which was made because of a containment problem, nothing to do with the Breen at all) was somehow nullifying the dissipater's effect, if they had not pointed it out to the Klingons they may have never made the connection (that house was probably one of the more tactical rather than technical ones). In fact, that particular captain seemed like he probably didn't know or care why the lights turned on when he ordered them to, just that they did so.
Like the human concept of honour, the klingon one is an ideal to strive for. It's almost an impossible goal, fighting against the innate nature of klingons in much the same way as we see in human cultures.
The knights had the code of chivalry, that didn't stop them TRIBBLE and murdering everyone in Jerusalem when it fell.
The sanurai had bushido, that didn't stop them ignoring it when it suited them.
Every human culture developed a martial philosophy of honour and every culture failed to live up to it. yet we hold klingons to a different standard?
Also the klingons operate on a caste system and all we tend to see is the warrior caste. They have engineers, poets, opera singers, scientists. Also we tend to see a negative side of the klingons because they are often used as the antagonist in star trek so they are of course set up to fail as the heroes of the show have to prevail at all times.
If a Marine soldier knows how to field-strip his rifle but wouldn't know a PGP connection from a PS4 console, does that mean humans are too stupid to invent computers and spaceships? Or does that mean that some humans have skills and knowledge that other humans don't?
> I take issue when people throe around the word honour in referenec to Klingons to imply they are not actualy honourable because they use cloaks and then cherry pick human examples.
>
> Like the human concept of honour, the klingon one is an ideal to strive for. It's almost an impossible goal, fighting against the innate nature of klingons in much the same way as we see in human cultures.
>
> The knights had the code of chivalry, that didn't stop them TRIBBLE and murdering everyone in Jerusalem when it fell.
> The sanurai had bushido, that didn't stop them ignoring it when it suited them.
>
> Every human culture developed a martial philosophy of honour and every culture failed to live up to it. yet we hold klingons to a different standard?
>
> Also the klingons operate on a caste system and all we tend to see is the warrior caste. They have engineers, poets, opera singers, scientists. Also we tend to see a negative side of the klingons because they are often used as the antagonist in star trek so they are of course set up to fail as the heroes of the show have to prevail at all times.
It should be noted that neither code of chivalry nor code of bushido were really a thing sure individual knights or samurai could have personal codes of honor but there was no universal set of rules every knight or samurai had to obey those were inventions of later times.
> (Quote)
>
> They made a big deal in "Balance of Terror" about how Romulan technology was quite alien to the Federation (and by implication Klingon) tech due to their choices on which branches to research, and that cut both ways. Until the Romulans started talking to the Klingons and got examples of sensor and warp technology that was more like that of the Federation the Romulans simply didn't know for sure how the Enterprise tracked the BoP earlier, and the tech exchange shed enough light on the problem that they were able to make an improved version of the cloak that did not have the "movement" flaw of the earlier one. Federation intelligence got wind of the improved, undetectable, cloak and that is why they sent Enterprise in to steal one to examine.
>
Actually it seems like the TOS Bird of prey was designed to look like it had stolen federation technology, according to Memory Alpha—
“ Dialogue in the shooting script of ‘Balance of Terror’ (never used and never filmed) had Commander Hansen speculate that the Romulan Bird-of-Prey was designed from stolen Starfleet ship blueprints. In further unused and unaired dialogue, Stiles later remarked on this in his tirades against Spock. [1]”
Of course the real production reasons are that “Enterprise Incident” didn’t have the BOP model and wanted to promote the D7 which had merchandise tie-ins.
The BOP of Star Trek was a “cloaking BOP” because it was designed to be a Romulan ship initially.
The only way that you can explain all the overlap without a technical exchange is espionage, perhaps...
Also bonus points to spiritborn for contextualizing Bushido like a pro Historian.
Both you and those characters are guilty of over generalizing. The KDF, unlike Starfleet, is a military branch and the Klingons most characters are likely to interact with are warriors. If the only humans you ever interacted with were say football players, you might assume the entire human race was a bunch of big burly dudes that lived for bashing into each other. And if that were the case not only would our society not function and we wouldn't have the technology level we currently do, we'd probably go extinct because our species would be pretty much a one trick pony.
The idea of stolen Federation technology was dropped very early though a few lines based on it did persist right up until they were penciled out in the daily shooting script packets. When D.C. Fontana tipped off the original writer about Roddenberry's fascination with the old Roman empire, that merged with the original concept and morphed into the idea that Romulans were ancient Vulcan exiles eclipsed the stolen technology thing since the two were not compatible ideas without a lot of dialog time burning explanation and the Vulcan angle was more interesting.
It is interesting though that in a later episode, Joanne Linville's character had a Federation MARS display from the 2250s with all of the original markings (but missing the gooseneck) as part of her desk electronics. Of course, since her flagship was one of the traded Klingon D7s it is probable that it was the Klingons who "stole" the design by reverse engineering captured or wrecked Starfleet tech (which does fit the Klingon style with their track record of reverse engineering things and "whatever works" attitude concerning technology).
Yes, the merchandising was an important part of the equation too, but that is typical Hollywood. The cold war analogy was strong in the series at the time though and since it dovetailed nicely with the merchandising angle they went with that as the in-universe explanation for both empires using the same battlecruisers.
In fact, by the time that "The Enterprise Incident" was being put together they were already making plans to ratchet up the analogy even further in the next season (which of course never happened because the show was cancelled) and had already talked to Campbell and Pataki about reprising Koloth and Korax in at least thirteen episodes in the proposed fourth season (originally they were going to start it in the third season but that didn't happen either because Frieberger, who took over day to day production from Coon in the third season, wasn't convinced the change of format was a good idea and wanted to clear more of the regular scripts first).
It's Klingon lore that Klingon Scientists were shunned...but the way Discovery Klingons are portrayed in STO not only are they more advanced than 25th Century Klingons...they're able to hack anyones ship from the 25th Century...including the more Scientific Starfleet and Romulans
Sorry pretty big contradictions you're trying to hand wave
Again, that is one house: House Mokai. There is so contradiction.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
The BoP owner's workshop manual shows the Klingons to have a high degree of technical aptitude and innovation.