rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,533Community Moderator
edited July 2020
Um... unless a piece of media is declared Canon, only what is seen on screen, ie TV and Movies, is Canon.
By your logic the events of every book, comic book, and game are canon. So I guess the whole ISC invasion from SFC2 happened, we have multiple versions of the Hur'q thanks to Star Trek Invasion and STO, Sulu fought through the Mirror Universe in Shattered Universe, Troi calling Riker Bill is canon because it was in the very first TNG novel, Kirk is alive because of the Borg, V'Ger is Borg, The Borg were created by a botched Calier thing with all but one of the crew of the NX-02 Columbia...
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
just because they didn't happen in daniel's 'preferred' timeline, doesn't mean they aren't real
(note the above is all (mostly) sarcasm - i say mostly because canon is religious TRIBBLE that needs to just TRIBBLE off from science fiction)
I wonder what happened to the timeline the original K'mtar came from, the one where Worf is dead, hopefully it's not like another kelvin timeline where it still exists but not part of the "correct" timeline.
Klingon Civil War
>>
Federation Civil War
>>
Alliance Collapses
>>
Terran Empire Invasion
>>
Killy emerges as the Empress of the Terran Empire!
>>
Sutherland finally gets a Mirror Typhoon Class!
>>
Sutherland Orders 3D printed Typhoon for his desk
>>
Sutherland is happy!
Hopefully I can have a Typhoon with gold stripes and Imperial symbol.
"Simba, you have forgotten me. You have forgotten who you are … you are my son and the one true king." (Mufasa)
Um... unless a piece of media is declared Canon, only what is seen on screen, ie TV and Movies, is Canon.
By your logic the events of every book, comic book, and game are canon. So I guess the whole ISC invasion from SFC2 happened, we have multiple versions of the Hur'q thanks to Star Trek Invasion and STO, Sulu fought through the Mirror Universe in Shattered Universe, Troi calling Riker Bill is canon because it was in the very first TNG novel, Kirk is alive because of the Borg, V'Ger is Borg, The Borg were created by a botched Calier thing with all but one of the crew of the NX-02 Columbia...
Need I go on?
That is indeed the implication. And also why CBS would need to be more selective as to what they allow to carry the name Trek. Instead of wanting everything to carry the name Trek, yet not accepting that all of it happened.
way back in the beginning there was a list of what was considered canon for STO from the Devs. I want to sat it was part of the Foundry agreement.. I do not remember exactly what was on the list, but I know the only book material that was allowed in game is Captain Calhoun. I also remember anything from the Shatnerverse was forbidden, which is hilarious, since some of the names used in those novels are on the list of things you cannot name, Like USS Monitor
way back in the beginning there was a list of what was considered canon for STO from the Devs. I want to sat it was part of the Foundry agreement.. I do not remember exactly what was on the list, but I know the only book material that was allowed in game is Captain Calhoun. I also remember anything from the Shatnerverse was forbidden, which is hilarious, since some of the names used in those novels are on the list of things you cannot name, Like USS Monitor
We also have the Vesta. 6 of them, actually.
And the Hernandez was apparently based on a comic. None of these things ever appeared on-screen. Neither did the USS Titan, I think.
I'm grateful that we have these things in the game. But this drawing from 'non-canon' sources when it suits them - and CBS accepting it - shows that the whole concept of 'canon' is basically meaningless. It will be adapted, stretched out, ignored, contradicted and so on whenever they can sell something.
This 'money first' approach is a problem with Trek in general (and perhaps many other big franchises) if you'd ask me. Specifically regarding the nonsense of 'canon' however, it shows that keeping the storyline and in-universe events consistent is not of primary concern of the license holder. So why do they bother keeping up the pretense when that boils down to - seemingly - adhering to an empty and meaningless concept?
And, more importantly, why would anyone care about this when they don't even care about it? For me it's simple: if it carries the name Trek, it's 'canon'. If CBS didn't want it to be 'canon', they should have said no (insert First Contact clip with Picard here ) when asked whether it could be published as Star Trek. 'Canon' is nothing but a lame excuse for the license holder to do whatever they want, without accepting the consequences of doing what they do. Which basically means that others can ignore those consequences as well.
If, for instance, CBS didn't want the Galactic Union to be part of 'canon', they would need to show, on screen, or in a book, or whatever piece of work that carries the name Star Trek after having been approved by them, that it was just an alternate timeline that never came true, never was what it was made out to be or didn't follow from events in the prime timeline - or whatever, really.
It's sci-fi, there are plenty of ways to 'fix' unwanted content or correct it - even writing a book or making an episode where it is shown to just have been propaganda from the time agents would do. Then you get an in-universe explanation for those in-universe contradictions and it would be fixed.
However, just saying, in the real world, 'it doesn't exist' or 'it hasn't happened' when it clearly was made and published with their consent in the real world, isn't enough. That's just adding contradictions, in the real world even, in a failing effort to fix an in-universe discrepancy.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,533Community Moderator
For the record, while they haven't been seen on screen, both the Vesta and Luna classes were accepted into canon.
Some of the comics are considered canon, and at least one game is. But not everything with the name "Star Trek" is considered Prime Alpha Canon, ie Movies and TV. There is absolutely no evidence of the ISC Invasion in anything outside of SFC2. There isn't even any mention of the ISC or some of the TMP era races from SFC2 in SFC3 whatsoever. No Mirak, Lyrans, or Hydrans. There is also no mention of the Kzinti, who made an appearance in an episode of TAS. There is no mention of the second encounter with the Whale Probe that occured with the USS Enterprise-A in the novel Probe. There is no mention of the Genesis Wave crisis from that trilogy. There is no mention of the Gateway crisis that spanned generations involving fake Iconians trying to sell Gateway tech. There is no mention of a Colony in a region where interference renders sensors virturally unusable for hours, or the custom built Composit Frigate Challenger that Scotty helped build to defend her in the New Earth novels. No mention of three timelines interacting with each other because of Trelane and Q. No mention of 0 being the reason the Galactic Barrier exists, or that "God" in the center of the Galaxy is an entity called "The One" who was a lackey of 0 and knows Q...
None of these events, and more, are referenced in any way by TV or Movies. The only time a video game is referenced is in Into Darkness, when McCoy mentions he delivered a baby Gorn. While not seen in game, you do hear McCoy talking about treating a pregnant Gorn that Sulu had stunned, saying the baby came out "all teeth and claws", while Kirk and Spock are using wingsuits to try and sneak into a Gorn facility.
If we must consider all things with Trek as absolute hard canon, then I guess all those crossovers really happened too. Like when the Crew of the Enterprise-E fought alongside the X-Men, at least twice, or the Borg/Cyberman Alliance that The Doctor fought.
For the record, while they haven't been seen on screen, both the Vesta and Luna classes were accepted into canon.
Some of the comics are considered canon, and at least one game is. But not everything with the name "Star Trek" is considered Prime Alpha Canon, ie Movies and TV. There is absolutely no evidence of the ISC Invasion in anything outside of SFC2. There isn't even any mention of the ISC or some of the TMP era races from SFC2 in SFC3 whatsoever. No Mirak, Lyrans, or Hydrans. There is also no mention of the Kzinti, who made an appearance in an episode of TAS. There is no mention of the second encounter with the Whale Probe that occured with the USS Enterprise-A in the novel Probe. There is no mention of the Genesis Wave crisis from that trilogy. There is no mention of the Gateway crisis that spanned generations involving fake Iconians trying to sell Gateway tech. There is no mention of a Colony in a region where interference renders sensors virturally unusable for hours, or the custom built Composit Frigate Challenger that Scotty helped build to defend her in the New Earth novels. No mention of three timelines interacting with each other because of Trelane and Q. No mention of 0 being the reason the Galactic Barrier exists, or that "God" in the center of the Galaxy is an entity called "The One" who was a lackey of 0 and knows Q...
None of these events, and more, are referenced in any way by TV or Movies. The only time a video game is referenced is in Into Darkness, when McCoy mentions he delivered a baby Gorn. While not seen in game, you do hear McCoy talking about treating a pregnant Gorn that Sulu had stunned, saying the baby came out "all teeth and claws", while Kirk and Spock are using wingsuits to try and sneak into a Gorn facility.
If we must consider all things with Trek as absolute hard canon, then I guess all those crossovers really happened too. Like when the Crew of the Enterprise-E fought alongside the X-Men, at least twice, or the Borg/Cyberman Alliance that The Doctor fought.
I'm not questioning their acceptance into canon.
I'm pointing out that the inconsistency to treat some things not shown on screen as 'canon' and refusing that same treatment to all other stuff, is that: an inconsistency. And opportunistic. As is the entire concept of 'canon', which is nothing but an invention to attach the name of Star Trek to all sorts of media, getting it covered by the licence, without accepting the consequences of doing so, and without the consequences these actions have in-universe.
It's nice and all that you keep giving many examples, but it's not refuting the basic premise of my argument in any way.
At best, you're showing what the consequences for CBS would be if they were actually consistent, if they actually only attached the name Star Trek to things that they actually appreciated the content of, stuff they were prepared to accept as constituting the lore of their franchise - instead of attaching it to anything that can make them money.
In doing so, you've perhaps also showed why they are probably not willing to be consistent (and, one might say, principled) : missing out too many opportunities, reducing the ability to write all sorts of crazy stories that don't rhyme with the other ones they'd already accepted... which leads me back to the opportunistic element in their behaviour.
If we must consider all things with Trek as absolute hard canon, then I guess all those crossovers really happened too. Like when the Crew of the Enterprise-E fought alongside the X-Men, at least twice, or the Borg/Cyberman Alliance that The Doctor fought.
That is indeed also a consequence. Once more: if they had been unwilling to accept such craziness, then perhaps they should've thought about that before attaching their protected trademark and license to those products.
You know, the trademarks and licences that exist for a reason; namely to avoid exactly these kind of crazy things, with some random person or fan claiming that their creation is part of Star Trek and its lore.
By granting others the right to publish under that protected name, CBS (as the licence holder and proprietor of that protected name) accepts that it is Star Trek. Silly claims about it not being 'canon' are just that: silly, with no real-world or judicial relevance. They're merely efforts to deflect responsibility for green-lighting things in the first place.
Of course, I should once more emphasise that CBS is not merely being silly here. As long as the fans, media, blogs, 'critical' reviewers on YouTube and so on go with this narrative and keep attaching meaning to this otherwise empty construct by discussing whether X or Y is 'canon', they would probably be crazy not to use this silly but very lucrative construct.
Klingons are the House Marik of Star Trek. Civil war is their national sport
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,533Community Moderator
Canon is determined by the IP Holder. That is all. No one can dispute that. No one other than the IP Holder can decide what is and isn't canon.
Hell... I think TAS is still kinda up in the air on its canon status, and that WAS seen on screen.
Unless it is brought into a show or movie or otherwise decided to be canon, it isn't. But that should NOT impede people from being able to write the books or comics because "Oh its not going to matter because I just want to make money". If that was the case... then why do we even HAVE games or books or comics or anything outside of the shows and movies?
I like the games and novels I've read. Do I consider them Canon? No. But they would make good stories if they were. A couple games could easily fit in just fine, like Voyager: Elite Force. But unless the IP Holder says it is, it isn't and its just fun and something Trek Fans can enjoy. Not some corporate conspiracy theory to muddy up anything. If they say "we want you guys to come up with a game in our universe" then that's what happens. At least Trek had a far more clear cut Canon/noncanon set up than Star Wars did before Disney got the IP.
Canon is determined by the IP Holder. That is all. No one can dispute that. No one other than the IP Holder can decide what is and isn't canon.
Hell... I think TAS is still kinda up in the air on its canon status, and that WAS seen on screen.
Unless it is brought into a show or movie or otherwise decided to be canon, it isn't. But that should NOT impede people from being able to write the books or comics because "Oh its not going to matter because I just want to make money". If that was the case... then why do we even HAVE games or books or comics or anything outside of the shows and movies?
I like the games and novels I've read. Do I consider them Canon? No. But they would make good stories if they were. A couple games could easily fit in just fine, like Voyager: Elite Force. But unless the IP Holder says it is, it isn't and its just fun and something Trek Fans can enjoy. Not some corporate conspiracy theory to muddy up anything. If they say "we want you guys to come up with a game in our universe" then that's what happens. At least Trek had a far more clear cut Canon/noncanon set up than Star Wars did before Disney got the IP.
So can we just agree to disagree and move on now?
Everyone can dispute it because it is nonsensical, their own behaviour is inconsistent (and thus inviting disputes) and the concept only has meaning because people think it does. If you don't wish to dispute it, that's up to you. If CBS doesn't want it to be disputed, they should create no room for dispute and perhaps actually start caring and critically reflect on what they're green-lighting.
But that should NOT impede people from being able to write the books or comics because "Oh its not going to matter because I just want to make money". If that was the case... then why do we even HAVE games or books or comics or anything outside of the shows and movies?
Because CBS loves to put the name Star Trek on everything, without (as you have also made clear) giving much thought as to what they're putting it on. More publications, games etc. means that the name becomes more valuable and that they get extra sources of income. I think I've already touched upon that pretty clearly. It's also hardly a secret.
As for writing the books and so on: apparently in those cases where the name was attached to the works, it was in the interest of both authors and CBS to make an otherwise obscure novel, a Star Trek novel. That's fine, it benefits everyone - but it also means that they explicitly considered it to be Star Trek.
You know, the problem of this whole thing of calling something Trek and then not accepting the contents of it, may become clearer with a comparison.
If I decided not to clean my house, it remains dirty. When faced with the consequences of my own (in)action, I might pretend that it's not dirty by saying that I don't accept the dirtyness, but that doesn't undo my previous action and its results.
If CBS decides that something can be named Star Trek, it becomes Star Trek. When faced with the consequences that they've just said that there are multiple versions of the Hur'q or that the Galactic Union exists and then doesn't (for example), they might pretend that they didn't by saying they don't accept these different versions. But that doesn't undo their previous action that resulted in the creation of different kinds of Hur'q or the Galactic Union in Star Trek works that they explicitly gave consent to, also to earn fees...
CBS can shout all it wants, you can accept or dispute their silly arguments, it doesn't matter in the end. Nothing of what CBS says or what you or I say, changes the underlying logic of the situation. If they disagree with the consequences of their behaviour as just laid out, they should change their behaviour because that (their ambivalence) is what's causing the disagreement in the first place.
As for moving on: I don't believe * I * started this debate about canon, that derailment was already taking place before I returned. I'm just weighing in now.
Klingons are the House Marik of Star Trek. Civil war is their national sport
That may be so, but it's getting boring. Based on what we've seen in the game, I'm sure the writers of STO can come up with more interesting stuff.
I'm curious about the conclusion of this arc, especially why J'ula attacked Andoria for example and now pretends that she wasn't trying to create a conflict and so on...
But I hope we'll reach that conclusion quickly.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,533Community Moderator
Klingons are the House Marik of Star Trek. Civil war is their national sport
If House Marik is the same one I'm thinking of from Battletech... I don't see that. Granted I know more about Steiner and Davion, with a side of Kurita and Liao more than I know anything from Marik. Also I think that would fit a bit more for Clan politics, since they love to settle disputes with Trials of combat. Trial of Posession, Trial of Grevience, Trial of Refusal... everything settled by "honorable combat". Even some promotions are settled by a Trial of Position.
I'm curious about the conclusion of this arc, especially why J'ula attacked Andoria for example and now pretends that she wasn't trying to create a conflict and so on...
But I hope we'll reach that conclusion quickly.
Well... J'Ula was probably warming up. And she also hates the Federation. She outright says that after J'mpok is beaten, "the war will continue, and it will end as it should have in my time". She WANTS to restart the Fed-Klingon War. She WANTS to have the Empire crush all who would oppose Klingon Supremacy. For Romulan players, she outright says that the Romulans would eventually be crushed under Klingon boots if they don't side with her. The mildest response is towards a Dominion player, citing that the Jem'Hadar would be valued more in the Empire than the Dominion.
So... J'Ula is still very much in favor of opening up old wounds and attacking the Federation. She's just in a very awkward situation right now with having to side with someone (the player) who opposed her for survival against J'mpok. And don't forget that J'mpok tried to martyr the player as well as eliminate a political rival. When that failed, he declared the player and Martok to be traitors and wouldn't give them a chance to defend themselves, while proping himself up as a hero who siezed J'Ula's superweapon after she fired it on Kitomer. Which if we had a chance to defend ourselves we'd point out that it was fired on J'Ula's position while she was on the surface. Something that frankly wouldn't make sense. Why fire on yourself?
There is also no mention of the Kzinti, who made an appearance in an episode of TAS.
Well, except for the PIC episode "Nepenthe", when Riker mentions that he's had to beef up the perimeter shields at his home because of kzinti incursions...
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,533Community Moderator
Well, except for the PIC episode "Nepenthe", when Riker mentions that he's had to beef up the perimeter shields at his home because of kzinti incursions...
Klingons are the House Marik of Star Trek. Civil war is their national sport
If House Marik is the same one I'm thinking of from Battletech... I don't see that. Granted I know more about Steiner and Davion, with a side of Kurita and Liao more than I know anything from Marik. Also I think that would fit a bit more for Clan politics, since they love to settle disputes with Trials of combat. Trial of Posession, Trial of Grevience, Trial of Refusal... everything settled by "honorable combat". Even some promotions are settled by a Trial of Position.
I'm curious about the conclusion of this arc, especially why J'ula attacked Andoria for example and now pretends that she wasn't trying to create a conflict and so on...
But I hope we'll reach that conclusion quickly.
Well... J'Ula was probably warming up. And she also hates the Federation. She outright says that after J'mpok is beaten, "the war will continue, and it will end as it should have in my time". She WANTS to restart the Fed-Klingon War. She WANTS to have the Empire crush all who would oppose Klingon Supremacy. For Romulan players, she outright says that the Romulans would eventually be crushed under Klingon boots if they don't side with her. The mildest response is towards a Dominion player, citing that the Jem'Hadar would be valued more in the Empire than the Dominion.
So... J'Ula is still very much in favor of opening up old wounds and attacking the Federation. She's just in a very awkward situation right now with having to side with someone (the player) who opposed her for survival against J'mpok. And don't forget that J'mpok tried to martyr the player as well as eliminate a political rival. When that failed, he declared the player and Martok to be traitors and wouldn't give them a chance to defend themselves, while proping himself up as a hero who siezed J'Ula's superweapon after she fired it on Kitomer. Which if we had a chance to defend ourselves we'd point out that it was fired on J'Ula's position while she was on the surface. Something that frankly wouldn't make sense. Why fire on yourself?
It is indeed the age old problem of Klingons refusing to take a moment and listen to an explanation. More of the same, basically.
Sapphire, Amy, Jerome, and Luperca won't have Shon defending them since that's OOC. Instead they'd have Koren defending them and fighting the Enterprise.
"Simba, you have forgotten me. You have forgotten who you are … you are my son and the one true king." (Mufasa)
Comments
By your logic the events of every book, comic book, and game are canon. So I guess the whole ISC invasion from SFC2 happened, we have multiple versions of the Hur'q thanks to Star Trek Invasion and STO, Sulu fought through the Mirror Universe in Shattered Universe, Troi calling Riker Bill is canon because it was in the very first TNG novel, Kirk is alive because of the Borg, V'Ger is Borg, The Borg were created by a botched Calier thing with all but one of the crew of the NX-02 Columbia...
Need I go on?
just because they didn't happen in daniel's 'preferred' timeline, doesn't mean they aren't real
(note the above is all (mostly) sarcasm - i say mostly because canon is religious TRIBBLE that needs to just TRIBBLE off from science fiction)
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Hopefully I can have a Typhoon with gold stripes and Imperial symbol.
"Simba, you have forgotten me. You have forgotten who you are … you are my son and the one true king." (Mufasa)
That is indeed the implication. And also why CBS would need to be more selective as to what they allow to carry the name Trek. Instead of wanting everything to carry the name Trek, yet not accepting that all of it happened.
That was basically my point.
We also have the Vesta. 6 of them, actually.
And the Hernandez was apparently based on a comic. None of these things ever appeared on-screen. Neither did the USS Titan, I think.
I'm grateful that we have these things in the game. But this drawing from 'non-canon' sources when it suits them - and CBS accepting it - shows that the whole concept of 'canon' is basically meaningless. It will be adapted, stretched out, ignored, contradicted and so on whenever they can sell something.
This 'money first' approach is a problem with Trek in general (and perhaps many other big franchises) if you'd ask me. Specifically regarding the nonsense of 'canon' however, it shows that keeping the storyline and in-universe events consistent is not of primary concern of the license holder. So why do they bother keeping up the pretense when that boils down to - seemingly - adhering to an empty and meaningless concept?
And, more importantly, why would anyone care about this when they don't even care about it? For me it's simple: if it carries the name Trek, it's 'canon'. If CBS didn't want it to be 'canon', they should have said no (insert First Contact clip with Picard here
If, for instance, CBS didn't want the Galactic Union to be part of 'canon', they would need to show, on screen, or in a book, or whatever piece of work that carries the name Star Trek after having been approved by them, that it was just an alternate timeline that never came true, never was what it was made out to be or didn't follow from events in the prime timeline - or whatever, really.
It's sci-fi, there are plenty of ways to 'fix' unwanted content or correct it - even writing a book or making an episode where it is shown to just have been propaganda from the time agents would do. Then you get an in-universe explanation for those in-universe contradictions and it would be fixed.
However, just saying, in the real world, 'it doesn't exist' or 'it hasn't happened' when it clearly was made and published with their consent in the real world, isn't enough. That's just adding contradictions, in the real world even, in a failing effort to fix an in-universe discrepancy.
Some of the comics are considered canon, and at least one game is. But not everything with the name "Star Trek" is considered Prime Alpha Canon, ie Movies and TV. There is absolutely no evidence of the ISC Invasion in anything outside of SFC2. There isn't even any mention of the ISC or some of the TMP era races from SFC2 in SFC3 whatsoever. No Mirak, Lyrans, or Hydrans. There is also no mention of the Kzinti, who made an appearance in an episode of TAS. There is no mention of the second encounter with the Whale Probe that occured with the USS Enterprise-A in the novel Probe. There is no mention of the Genesis Wave crisis from that trilogy. There is no mention of the Gateway crisis that spanned generations involving fake Iconians trying to sell Gateway tech. There is no mention of a Colony in a region where interference renders sensors virturally unusable for hours, or the custom built Composit Frigate Challenger that Scotty helped build to defend her in the New Earth novels. No mention of three timelines interacting with each other because of Trelane and Q. No mention of 0 being the reason the Galactic Barrier exists, or that "God" in the center of the Galaxy is an entity called "The One" who was a lackey of 0 and knows Q...
None of these events, and more, are referenced in any way by TV or Movies. The only time a video game is referenced is in Into Darkness, when McCoy mentions he delivered a baby Gorn. While not seen in game, you do hear McCoy talking about treating a pregnant Gorn that Sulu had stunned, saying the baby came out "all teeth and claws", while Kirk and Spock are using wingsuits to try and sneak into a Gorn facility.
If we must consider all things with Trek as absolute hard canon, then I guess all those crossovers really happened too. Like when the Crew of the Enterprise-E fought alongside the X-Men, at least twice, or the Borg/Cyberman Alliance that The Doctor fought.
I'm not questioning their acceptance into canon.
I'm pointing out that the inconsistency to treat some things not shown on screen as 'canon' and refusing that same treatment to all other stuff, is that: an inconsistency. And opportunistic. As is the entire concept of 'canon', which is nothing but an invention to attach the name of Star Trek to all sorts of media, getting it covered by the licence, without accepting the consequences of doing so, and without the consequences these actions have in-universe.
It's nice and all that you keep giving many examples, but it's not refuting the basic premise of my argument in any way.
At best, you're showing what the consequences for CBS would be if they were actually consistent, if they actually only attached the name Star Trek to things that they actually appreciated the content of, stuff they were prepared to accept as constituting the lore of their franchise - instead of attaching it to anything that can make them money.
In doing so, you've perhaps also showed why they are probably not willing to be consistent (and, one might say, principled) : missing out too many opportunities, reducing the ability to write all sorts of crazy stories that don't rhyme with the other ones they'd already accepted... which leads me back to the opportunistic element in their behaviour.
That is indeed also a consequence. Once more: if they had been unwilling to accept such craziness, then perhaps they should've thought about that before attaching their protected trademark and license to those products.
You know, the trademarks and licences that exist for a reason; namely to avoid exactly these kind of crazy things, with some random person or fan claiming that their creation is part of Star Trek and its lore.
By granting others the right to publish under that protected name, CBS (as the licence holder and proprietor of that protected name) accepts that it is Star Trek. Silly claims about it not being 'canon' are just that: silly, with no real-world or judicial relevance. They're merely efforts to deflect responsibility for green-lighting things in the first place.
Of course, I should once more emphasise that CBS is not merely being silly here. As long as the fans, media, blogs, 'critical' reviewers on YouTube and so on go with this narrative and keep attaching meaning to this otherwise empty construct by discussing whether X or Y is 'canon', they would probably be crazy not to use this silly but very lucrative construct.
Hell... I think TAS is still kinda up in the air on its canon status, and that WAS seen on screen.
Unless it is brought into a show or movie or otherwise decided to be canon, it isn't. But that should NOT impede people from being able to write the books or comics because "Oh its not going to matter because I just want to make money". If that was the case... then why do we even HAVE games or books or comics or anything outside of the shows and movies?
I like the games and novels I've read. Do I consider them Canon? No. But they would make good stories if they were. A couple games could easily fit in just fine, like Voyager: Elite Force. But unless the IP Holder says it is, it isn't and its just fun and something Trek Fans can enjoy. Not some corporate conspiracy theory to muddy up anything. If they say "we want you guys to come up with a game in our universe" then that's what happens. At least Trek had a far more clear cut Canon/noncanon set up than Star Wars did before Disney got the IP.
So can we just agree to disagree and move on now?
Everyone can dispute it because it is nonsensical, their own behaviour is inconsistent (and thus inviting disputes) and the concept only has meaning because people think it does. If you don't wish to dispute it, that's up to you. If CBS doesn't want it to be disputed, they should create no room for dispute and perhaps actually start caring and critically reflect on what they're green-lighting.
Because CBS loves to put the name Star Trek on everything, without (as you have also made clear) giving much thought as to what they're putting it on. More publications, games etc. means that the name becomes more valuable and that they get extra sources of income. I think I've already touched upon that pretty clearly. It's also hardly a secret.
As for writing the books and so on: apparently in those cases where the name was attached to the works, it was in the interest of both authors and CBS to make an otherwise obscure novel, a Star Trek novel. That's fine, it benefits everyone - but it also means that they explicitly considered it to be Star Trek.
You know, the problem of this whole thing of calling something Trek and then not accepting the contents of it, may become clearer with a comparison.
If I decided not to clean my house, it remains dirty. When faced with the consequences of my own (in)action, I might pretend that it's not dirty by saying that I don't accept the dirtyness, but that doesn't undo my previous action and its results.
If CBS decides that something can be named Star Trek, it becomes Star Trek. When faced with the consequences that they've just said that there are multiple versions of the Hur'q or that the Galactic Union exists and then doesn't (for example), they might pretend that they didn't by saying they don't accept these different versions. But that doesn't undo their previous action that resulted in the creation of different kinds of Hur'q or the Galactic Union in Star Trek works that they explicitly gave consent to, also to earn fees...
CBS can shout all it wants, you can accept or dispute their silly arguments, it doesn't matter in the end. Nothing of what CBS says or what you or I say, changes the underlying logic of the situation. If they disagree with the consequences of their behaviour as just laid out, they should change their behaviour because that (their ambivalence) is what's causing the disagreement in the first place.
As for moving on: I don't believe * I * started this debate about canon, that derailment was already taking place before I returned. I'm just weighing in now.
That may be so, but it's getting boring. Based on what we've seen in the game, I'm sure the writers of STO can come up with more interesting stuff.
I'm curious about the conclusion of this arc, especially why J'ula attacked Andoria for example and now pretends that she wasn't trying to create a conflict and so on...
But I hope we'll reach that conclusion quickly.
If House Marik is the same one I'm thinking of from Battletech... I don't see that. Granted I know more about Steiner and Davion, with a side of Kurita and Liao more than I know anything from Marik. Also I think that would fit a bit more for Clan politics, since they love to settle disputes with Trials of combat. Trial of Posession, Trial of Grevience, Trial of Refusal... everything settled by "honorable combat". Even some promotions are settled by a Trial of Position.
Well... J'Ula was probably warming up. And she also hates the Federation. She outright says that after J'mpok is beaten, "the war will continue, and it will end as it should have in my time". She WANTS to restart the Fed-Klingon War. She WANTS to have the Empire crush all who would oppose Klingon Supremacy. For Romulan players, she outright says that the Romulans would eventually be crushed under Klingon boots if they don't side with her. The mildest response is towards a Dominion player, citing that the Jem'Hadar would be valued more in the Empire than the Dominion.
So... J'Ula is still very much in favor of opening up old wounds and attacking the Federation. She's just in a very awkward situation right now with having to side with someone (the player) who opposed her for survival against J'mpok. And don't forget that J'mpok tried to martyr the player as well as eliminate a political rival. When that failed, he declared the player and Martok to be traitors and wouldn't give them a chance to defend themselves, while proping himself up as a hero who siezed J'Ula's superweapon after she fired it on Kitomer. Which if we had a chance to defend ourselves we'd point out that it was fired on J'Ula's position while she was on the surface. Something that frankly wouldn't make sense. Why fire on yourself?
I haven't seen that episode yet.
It is indeed the age old problem of Klingons refusing to take a moment and listen to an explanation. More of the same, basically.
"Simba, you have forgotten me. You have forgotten who you are … you are my son and the one true king." (Mufasa)